723. Magic and Gardens with Ashley Poston

[intro]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 723 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and my guest today is Ashley Poston. Her new book, The Someday Garden, is out this week, and The Someday Garden was inspired by The Secret Garden, so we’re going to talk about inspiration, gardening, fandoms, changing genres, and having your readers grow up with you as a writer.

I want to give you a WARNING that about one hour into our conversation we discuss suicide. Most of this book is about grief, so there’s a lot of discussion of grief, but that specific topic arrives at about one hour into the conversation and lasts about five minutes.

I have a compliment this week, which always makes me so happy!

To Jacqueline A.: Jacqueline, the National Weather Service is working on a new system of Watches and Warnings for imminent goodness arriving. They want to branch out into positive cautions like Great Day Today or The Pollen Count Is Marvelous or Chance of Rainbows 87%. They’re calling it the Jacqueline System because you bring imminent goodness wherever you go.

If you would like a compliment of your very own or you would like to support the show, it would mean a tremendous amount if you did! Have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Patreon members are some of the nicest humans I’ve ever encountered. We have a wonderfully welcoming Discord that’s terrific fun! You get full PDF scans of issues of Romantic Times and other benefits. If you’d like to learn more, patreon.com/SmartBitches.

All right, are you ready to go talk about gardens? It’s a very green episode. On with the podcast.

[music]

Ashley Poston: My name is Ashley Poston, and I am the author of – [deep breath] – a lot of books at this point. You’re probably most familiar with The Seven Year Slip, but I’ve also written The Dead Romantics, A Novel Love Story, Sounds Like Love. I have a whole lot of Young Adult books too, ‘cause that’s my origin story. I’m known for Geekerella, which people are like, my gosh, you wrote Geekerella? Yes, ‘tis I. [Laughs] The same, the same nerdy person. I also wrote, it’s space fantasy, Heart of Iron duology. I’ve written romantic fantasy, a YA romantic fantasy, Among the Beasts & Briars. I’ve written for Disney. You know what? I’ve just, I’ve just been around! And now I think I’ve aged us all ten years by listing them all, so I will stop.

Sarah: I love a nerd with many focuses. You have lots of different genres that you’ve written in. Do you notice that the, that the audience for your books has remained consistent? Have they grown with you? Or do you have, like, a YA audience that you talk to in a different way than your sort of – I, I just interviewed Kirsty Greenwood and she, you and, you and –

Ashley: I love Kirsty!

Sarah: Oh, she was like, You, I have some topics you need to ask Ashley about, so I have a little Christy, Kirsty list here.

Ashley: Yes! I cannot wait.

[Laughter]

Sarah: But she was describing her new book as speculative romantic comedy, which I think –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – is a really great name, and I’m, I would apply it to you if you’re okay with that.

Ashley: One hundred percent!

Sarah: Okay. So do you, do you notice that your audience grows with you as you have moved from YA into speculative romantic comedy, or is it like different groups that you’re talking to?

Ashley: I find that my audience has kind of grown with me.

Sarah: That’s so cool.

Ashley: It, it was so cool. There was, there was this one moment, I think it was two years ago, when this young woman came up to me in my signing line and, and, and she was like, I started reading you as a teenager with Geekerella, and now I’m an adult reading your adult things, and I’m like, Oh my gosh, we kind of grew up together in this, like, weird kind of way! [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s lovely!

Ashley: It was, it, it’s, it’s so, so, so cool. And it’s, it really put my entire career into perspective where, like, I, I do actually, like, grow and change with my readers, and we all just kind of, like, migrate together like this swarm of bees. [Laughs]

Sarah: And it’s interesting because I know so many writers are afraid to change genres, write genres that are aimed for an older audience or a completely different audience. That, that, that switch can be so intimidating. And for you, you were just sort of like, All right, well, this is where we’re going.

Ashley: Yeah! I mean 2020, famously nothing happened in 2020.

Sarah: Not at all.

Ashley: Nothing, nothing happened of note. And so because nothing of note happened, I had to reevaluate my career because I was not selling anything in Young Adult. And ever since I first started my career, I knew I wanted to also write adult and also write, like, sci-fi and fantasy and mystery and thriller. Like, I, when I had my first chat with my agent, Holly Root, I was like, I want to write everything, and I want someone who will, who will, like, take that and be like, Yeah, challenge accepted: game on. And, and Holly was that perfect person for me.

And so that was when we just kind of decided, Well, I think it’s time to do something new, but I didn’t know what that new thing was? I had this, this project that I had been working on. And at the time, paranormal romance was not a thing at – [laughs] – at that time. Like, it wasn’t really, it, well, in, in trad pub it wasn’t really a thing. It, it still had really, really strong indie roots. And so I was like, I don’t think, I don’t think this is going to go anywhere. And so I sent it to my agent, and she was like, Well, I think it might go somewhere, but you’re going to have to change the title. And I’m like, What? I love the title Ghost Boners!

[Laughter]

Ashley: And, and she’s like, No, I, I don’t think, I, I don’t think that’s going to fly. And so we changed the title, and then we went out with it, and, like, sure enough, she was right. She found the perfect editor for it in adult, and she was like, Well, it’s time to try something new and go on another adventure. And so I did! And now I’ve come full circle and I’m about to go on another adventure. So.

Sarah: Congratulations on that!

Ashley: Thank you!

Sarah: And obviously you’re here specifically to talk about The Someday Garden.

Ashley: Yes.

Sarah: Do you remember your point of entry into this book? Do you remember what led you into this story?

Ashley: Yeah! It was, it was a conversation I had with my editor and my agent. There’s this, there’s this, like, weird myth that if you, that if you, like, write, everything has to come from yourself and your own brain. Whereas, like, no, all books are, like, influenced by, like, other people and talking and, like, like, sharing experiences. And so we were all talking about just wanting to, to, like, go off the grid for a while and I was like, Yeah, I would love to go to, like, one of those really beautiful botanical gardens; I haven’t been to one in a really long time. And then we started talking about botanical gardens, and then my editor, who’s from Maine started talking about Maine, and so this kind of, this, this kind of like hodgepodge idea just kind of built itself and, and came together. And I didn’t know at the time what kind of, like, magical gimmick I would do because, like, I, I don’t use gimmick in, like, a –

Sarah: No.

Ashley: – in a negative way?

Sarah: Not at all.

Ashley: I use gimmick in a positive way, because I love a good gimmick. Give me, give me the gimmick. Like, for instance, Kir-, Kirsty Greenwood’s latest book has my favorite gimmick in the entire world, which is, like, your character coming to life, right? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, the villain, the villain of your series –

Ashley: The villain! Oh!

Sarah: – comes to life in your living room.

Ashley: Please, please. I am having, like, I had so much fun reading, reading that book, and now I’m, like, reading it again because we have two events together. Well, no –

Sarah: Yep!

Ashley: – we have three events together!

Sarah: Yup!

Ashley: Two, two, two in the US and like one in the UK, so I’m just going to be high-fiving her just so often in the next few weeks.

But, but yeah, it’s like I, I love a good gimmick. And so I didn’t know what the gimmick was going to be yet. I didn’t want, I don’t like to retread the gimmicks that I’ve already done, which is kind of why I haven’t done another paranormal romance, ‘cause I’m not sure what, what else I want to do with a ghost story, but –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – I’ll figure it out. I, I have, like, the, the start of an idea, but it’ll have to percolate for a while. And I didn’t want to do, you know, another, like, character come to life, like Novel Love Story sort of deal. I didn’t want to do telepathy again. I was toying with, like, art coming to life in some way, kind of like characters coming to life, but in, in, like, a different way, but it did, it ended up not working out the way I thought it would. I, I, I wrote it and it just didn’t feel right at the moment?

And so it took a while to find the gimmick, but then –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – when I finally found it, I was like, Oh! Oh, this is it! This is, this is what the story is about, because every – so when I choose my gimmicks, they always have to be a foil for the main characters? So the, the gimmicks always have to work towards whatever the character has to learn, and the character can only learn it through this gimmick? Which is, which is how I incorporate the sort of magical-ness in it while keeping the books kind of grounded.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: Because it kind of helps when you, when you root the magic into, like, the core heart of the story. And so that’s –

Sarah: Yes.

Ashley: – kind of how I, how I end up doing that! But it took, it took a whooole lot of time. [Laughs]

Sarah: I call that throwing it in the Crockpot in the back of my brain?

Ashley: That’s it! That’s it.

Sarah: I have a slow cooker, and I’ve, like, I will toss things in there, and then like three years later I’ll be like, Oh, a fully formed idea has just arrived in my brain. Ah!

Ashley: Exactly! And then I’m like, Oh!

Sarah: Yes.

Ashley: This is it! And then, like, people want to try and Instant Pot that shit, and like, no. No –

Sarah: Nope.

Ashley: – you, you can’t Instant Pot a good idea. I’m sorry.

Sarah: No, you need to really slow cook it.

I’m fascinated by the idea of the gimmick as a foil for the main character, because you’re right, that really does ground a magical concept in a real emotional reality, as well as the, the setting for the book itself.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And I know for this one, the gimmick is essentially a secret garden.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: The Secret Garden, you know, being a major influence. And I agree with you. I think, I think every book is in conversation with the books that have come before it, especially the books that the writer has read. I mean, like, I’ve been talking about romance for twenty years. Every book that I read now is connected, I can connect it to books that I’ve read fifteen, twenty years ago. Every, every new, every new book is a conversation with prior books.

Ashley: Exactly!

Sarah: And I think that a lot of writers are like magpies.

Ashley: Mm.

Sarah: We take an idea over here, we take an idea over there, that one goes over here, and then you put it all together. So we’re all very, we’re all very acquisitive in our ideas and our, and our concepts. What were the elements and the themes from The Secret Garden that you most wanted to include?

Ashley: I wanted to include the idea of, like, finding, finding somewhere where you could essentially, like, bloom along with this, like, this place that you are also working towards. Whereas –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – not only you are changing and growing, but, but literally the, the, the world around you is also changing and growing through your own hard work and, and, and your own development throughout the story. Like, I, I love that about The Secret Garden. And I also love the idea of, like, a found family and, and just, and, and finding kind of where you fit in for however little amount of time, and how sometimes places, even if you don’t stay there forever, they can, they can fill you in a way that you carry with you for the rest of your life. And –

Sarah: Yes.

Ashley: – I love that about, about The Secret Garden. And, and also other stories that are inspired by The Secret Garden too, because I feel like, like they all carry that same through line where it’s like home is not where the heart is, but it’s where you, where you first bloomed?

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: So.

Sarah: I love that. I also think that’s an interesting contrast, because one of the foundational elements of The Secret Garden is that parental neglect causes really, as one person described it on Reddit, unloving children.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And in this book, there isn’t so much parental neglect as there is garden neglect.

Ashley: Yes, there’s a lot of garden neglect. And, and that, that kind of stems from the fact that the parental figures in, in The Someday Garden, without getting too deep into spoilers, they are, they are childless. Not childless; child-free, I should say. Because, like, they, it’s something that they did choose, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – it’s something that, that they, they, they chose to do because they had other things that fulfilled their, their life. And so I wanted the garden to kind of reflect that dichotomy, whereas, like, instead of it being a child, it is, it is a garden. It is still the thing that you love the most; it is the thing that is most precious to you, that in, that, that you end up kind of neglecting and, like, letting rot and spoil for a little while.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And, and what does it take to, to bring, like, that, that, that thing that you have neglected back, back to you? Like, like, does it, does it ever come back to you the same way? No! Like, it’s going to be changed, it’s going to be different. You will see it in a different way, and it won’t, and it won’t, like, have the same relationship that it had with you before the neglect. But sometimes you can heal enough to, like, to at least meet each other somewhere in, like, the distant future. Like, not in the middle, but in, on an even ground.

Sarah: Yeah. And another aspect of the book that links well to The Secret Garden – and like you said, no spoilers. I read the books that I talk about on my show, but I try very, very hard to limit my, my questions about the book to, like, the first section so I don’t, I don’t spoil anything?

Ashley: Yeah, and I’m, like, I, I’m, like, doing, like, the, like, matrix bullet dodge right now. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes. Can’t talk about that. Can’t talk about this. Let’s not talk about that yet either.

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: In the book, Sophie is grieving her friend Harrie, and it is both the anniversary of an event in her friendship, and her grief is very new. And one thing about grief is that it makes you stuck. Like, it freezes you and it sort of covers you with, like, putty, like you can’t move as easily. You are stuck and, and just surrounded by emotions you really don’t want to deal with ‘cause they hurt and they’re unpleasant.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: But setting her grief in a garden I thought was such an evocative idea, because even if you do nothing, even if you do neglect something –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – it’s going to change anyway. Whether you’re there or not, it, things will move on and change anyway. This garden is going to continue to grow or become very smelly and weird –

Ashley: [Laughs]

Sarah: – depending on what you do or don’t do. Was it difficult to write a character who is so stuck in where she is and just – you know, you have characters that are interacting. She’s like, I don’t even want to exist right now. Like, I don’t even want to be perceived. I would prefer not to be solid matter at this moment. And is that hard to write a character who’s in such a deeply dark place?
Ashley: You know, I would – [sighs] – I, I guess an, an emotionally stable person would say yes.

[Laughter]

Ashley: However – [laughs]

Sarah: However, I enjoy torturing my characters because that is my job.

Ashley: That! And –

Sarah: Basically, yeah!

Ashley: [Laughs] Yeah, essentially! I, I think, I think the hardest part about writing Sophie was imagining a world where my best friend was no longer there.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And because I have not actually experienced that yet – hopefully I won’t for a very long time – I did find and talk with people who have had that loss? Because, so, every single book that I go into when I, when I write, something, well, anything that involves mental health or grief, I always try and find people who have mirrored or similar experiences, especially if I don’t have it myself. And even when I do have it myself, I, I go looking for, for other people as well.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: Because everyone’s experience is different.

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: And so, and so, like, I, I, I think the hardest part was, was, was talking with people about that, who, who, who were okay to open up to, to questions about this loss and, and how they, they navigate through the, through a world that essentially is missing a piece of themselves. And so that was, that, I think that was the hardest part, and trying to reflect that onto Sophie in a way that felt genuine and, and really lived in? What made it easier for me was that the garden itself was also, like, missing its best friend at this point. Like, the, the garden’s caretaker is also, ha-, has also passed away.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And so it, it feels a bit, bit like a, like a mirrored grief where, like, Sophie is, is kind of stuck and kind of like festering in this, in this moment where she, where she lost her best friend, and, and the garden kind of is, is the same way. And so it was, it was a lot easier to, like, write, write in tandem with, with this, with this other entity, I guess?

Sarah: Yeah!

Ashley: This, the, this, this garden that, like, I, okay, so I know where the garden ends up at the end of this book. I’m not sure where Sophie ends up. So mirroring Sophie’s character development and, like, the way she navigates grief by, like, writing about the garden was, I don’t know, quite, quite lovely actually. And it, and it –

Sarah: It comes through.

Ashley: Thank you!

Sarah: You can tell you have a lot of affection for the garden and for the plants and for the setting as a character. Very, very clear. Yeah.

Ashley: Thank you! My Oma would be very proud. [Laughs]

Sarah: Excellent!

Now, there’s one moment early in the book – no spoilers –

Ashley: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – when Sophie talks about meeting Harrie and knows instantly that this is her person. And I’ve definitely experienced that moment of recognition, too. And it, also, the garden does that as well, because Lilymoor resonated with both of them separately –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – through a documentary before they met. And they met and were like, Oh, we’re the only two people who know about this weird-ass garden on a documentary from like however many VHS years ago.

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: Even the garden resonated with them both in different ways. What do you think it is that resonates? Is it a, is it a sense of trust? Is it safety? Is it a similar vibration? What do you think makes that resonance happen where you meet someone and go, Oh! I know you, even though I don’t know you?

Ashley: I, you know, if I was a, if, if I was more romantic as a person, I would say that –

[Laughter]

Ashley: – that it was a missing piece of yourself finding you in the next lifetime. But I think – so at least with my best and longest friend that I’ve had since, since middle school, we, we resonated over, over, over the last chapter of this, of this manga that we really, really enjoyed, like, separately, and then, and then I was reading it on bench because I never had my English homework, and she also never had her English homework. And so she was like –

[Laughter]

Ashley: And so she was like, Oh, is that, is that the last chapter? And I was like, Yeah! And do, do you, do you, do you do you read this? She’s like, Yes, I do! And, like, that was, that was literally it. I think for me it’s, it’s akin to seeing your weird reflected in someone else and being like, Oh! Oh, you too! And there’s just something really lovely about that. I’ve, I feel, I feel similarly to why, to why I think, why, why, like, really, really, really big books are, have such a, have such a profound effect on, like, readers or, like, making people readers, like with Fourth Wing? Because it’s not some, like, it’s not the book itself that is, that is really good or really inventive; it is the community around it and everyone being like, Oh, you too? Me too! And it’s like being a part of something because we are, we are, we, we are social creatures. We, we, we long for connection in any way. And so I think the act of, like, being part of something makes it all the more magical. And so when you find that one specific person who has that one specific weird that you also have, I, I think it just kind of joins you together in a way that is truly magical.

Sarah: I think that’s a really good, I think that’s a really good explanation, that seeing your weird reflected in another person, because it’s not just recognition, but it’s also confirmation that you’re not the only one.

Ashley: Yeah!

Sarah: You’re not alone. There’s a lot, like –

Ashley: You’re not alone!

Sarah: Like, the rule of the internet is no matter what weird thing you are into –

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: – someone in the world is into it too, and the internet allows us to find each other, which is a great part about the internet. And that recognition means that we’re not the only one who loves something.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And it’s really fun when you see a fandom sort of start to congeal, when people start to be like, Oh, I’m not the only one who loved this; you love this too? Oh my gosh.

Ashley: Oh, I love that.

Sarah: It’s –

Ashley: I love that moment.

Sarah: It’s so fun! Like, I remember the early days of Twilight.

Ashley: [Gasps] I do too!

Sarah: Right?

Ashley: Yes!

Sarah: And people were like, I’m, I’m reading this book about vampires? Like, oh my God, me too! And then it –

Ashley: Oh, you too?!

Sarah: – and then it became, like, a, a, a thing on Facebook. Like, people were tagging themselves Twi-moms. Like, it was a whole –

Ashley: Twi-moms! And then, like –

Sarah: Do you remember Twi-moms? [Laughs]

Ashley: Yeah, Twi-moms, Twi-hards, Twat-lights. Like, I was – [laughs]

Sarah: I forgot about Twat-lights!

[Laughter]

Ashley: It’s just –

Sarah: Oh, what a time!

Ashley: What a time! Oh –

Sarah: Right?

Ashley: – LiveJournal, rest in peace. [Laughs]

Sarah: Ah, LiveJournal. I love it so much; I miss it so much.

Ashley: I, I miss it so much. That was like where so much of, like, fandom just came together, especially book fandom.

Sarah: Oh God, yes. I had a Diary-X, remember that?

Ashley: Yes! Oh my gosh!

Sarah: Oh – and the ser-, it was like one dude, and his server died, and all of our journals were gone. My, my, a lot of my writing was lost in the Diary-X server crash, and that was –

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: – one of my first experiences with, well, A, I need to do backups and, B, I just gotta let it go.

Ashley: Yep. Sometimes, you know, sometimes if a, if a good idea is there it will come back to you.

Sarah: It’ll come back, yes. Ideas are circular and, like you said, always in conversation.

Ashley: Exactly.

Sarah: And it’s so funny to look at a, a burgeoning fandom –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – because it, I mean, at this point we’ve seen it happen so many times with different books, and every time it happens there’s this sort of media culture response of, This is so strange! And I’m like, We do this like every five years! Every –

Ashley: Every time!

Sarah: We had Twilight, and then we had Hunger Games, then we had Fifty Shades of Grey, which was Twilight-connected.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: We had ACOTAR; we’ve had Fourth Wing. Like, we’ve had books that have taken over. Never mind, you know, she who will, will not be named, who took over for like fifteen years. Like, we do this every, we do this every five years! How is it news every time that people –

Ashley: Right?!

Sarah: – get excited about worlds they want to read about? Like, it, I –

Ashley: And, like –

Sarah: – it’s baffling, right?

Ashley: And, like, why is it only, like, like, like, usually, like, female or, like, queer-centric fandoms that, that are, that are like –

Sarah: I’m holding my lighter.

Ashley: – Oh, this is so weird and I’m like, Hi! How ‘bout Matt Dinniman and his, and his Dungeon Crawler Carl? Anyone? Anyone? Like, don’t, don’t get me wrong, I love Dungeon Crawler Carl and Matt Dinniman; like, fantastic. But also, like, are we going to do like forty op-eds about that? [Laughs]

Sarah: No! [Snorts] I did a spontaneous rant on Instagram to camera, and I don’t do a lot of to camera. And I was just so pissed off because I looked at social media and everyone was like, Wow, why is Heated Rivalry so popular? And I’m, and, and I’m going to get that question as much as I still get the question Why is romance so popular? I’ve been answering that question for two damn decades. And the thing that made me mad is what I said in my Reel: Nobody asks that question about shit that dudes like. No one’s like,
Why was The Sopranos popular? Why was The Wire popular? Why did everybody like Game of Thrones? Nobody asks that question.

Ashley: No!

Sarah: But when it’s women, when it’s children, when it’s marginalized people, when it’s queer people, all of a sudden it’s like this great cultural mystery! And I’m like, We do this all the time! Wake up!

Ashley: Yeah, it’s just like, it’s, it’s like, I’m, I’m sorry, are you just not paying attention, or do we get more clicks than, like, Oh, the straight white men are at it again? Like, is, is –

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: – is that it? [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s so funny because it – one of my greater cultural theories is that straight white Christian men control so much of the media, and yet they’re mad that they’re not the subject of it. And the problem is that they’re deeply uninteresting.

Ashley: So uninteresting! It’s like –

Sarah: Deeply boring.

Ashley: – it’s like if I wanted, like, just white bread, I would just go to a, go to Food Lion and buy some white bread. Like –

Sarah: Right?

Ashley: [Laughs]

Sarah: Get yourself some Wonder and move on, right?

Ashley: Right? Ugh. But yeah, like, it’s such a mystery, you know.

Sarah: It, it’s, it’s not. And when you’re in, like, geek spaces and nerd spaces and con spaces, especially –

Ashley: Especially con spaces.

Sarah: – those people, the, the thing that comes out of a con space, for example, that I think is so threatening to that same cultural analysis group is that these are people who deeply know who they are –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and are, are very happy with who they are, and know that not only have they found their weird, but they found other people with the same weird, and they are very comfortable with that. Once you eradicate that shame, which has, like, been my job – like, one of the unspoken aspects of my job was to be like, No one should feel ashamed about reading romance. There’s going to be people, people, be people who tell you you ought to be ashamed, but I –

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: – have not yet met a reader that was ashamed of what they were reading. They were afraid of the shame that was coming from other people and didn’t want to – like, I have not met someone who was like, Oh my God, I’m so ashamed that I’m reading this. Like, no! People are like, I’m in it!

Ashley: [Laughs]

Sarah: Give me the big dicks; I wish to read about them! The shame –

Ashley: Is it like, I am here, I, I am cracking that spine at the first sex scene. Like – [laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah, bring it on. I mean, you think about old paperbacks, old romance paperbacks, the really thick one, and they had that card in the middle so you could subscribe? There was always a sex scene within ten pages of that card every time. Always.

Ashley: Every single time. Publishers knew what they were doing. [Laughs]

Sarah: They knew. They knew us.

Ashley: They knew.

Sarah: They knew what we were doing.

Ashley: Oh yeah.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Now, in this book, you mention a bunch of memorable gardens. Again, no spoilers. You mention the Jardin de Quatre-Vents in Quebec. You mentioned the, is it Butchart or Butchart in British Columbia? I’ve never heard that one.

Ashley: Butchart, I think.

Sarah: Was there a specific garden or place that inspired Lilymoor? Did, did you do magical garden research too?

Ashley: [Laughs] I, I, I did do a little magical garden research. When I went up to Maine for research – ‘cause I had never been to Maine before, and so I was like, Well, if I’m going to write about Maine, might as well go up there for –

Sarah: That’s just –

Ashley: – a weekend.

Sarah: – terrible, just awful.

Ashley: [Dramatically] Oh –

Sarah: I’m –

Ashley: – the worst!

Sarah: – so sorry.

Ashley: It was so hard! I just – [deep breath] – it’s okay; I survived somehow.

Sarah: Wait, did you go from South Carolina to Maine?

Ashley: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Okay, that’s awesome. That’s like twelve different climates different.

Ashley: It truly was. Like, like, I –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ashley: And, and, and it was, it was at the end of July, too, so it was –

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Ashley: – it was like going from being in the middle of a mouth –

Sarah: Yep.

Ashley: – to just, like, being in normal temperature? [Laughs]

Sarah: The humidity is different, too! How? How are you doing that? [Laughs]

Ashley: Right! And, like, I was actually cold? I had to wear a sweater in July? And I was like, What is this magic?

Sarah: And it wasn’t because of air conditioning? [Laughs]

Ashley: Not because of air conditioning! I know! I was just like, What, what, what is this? Like, do you, do you ever get over a hundred degree days? And they’re like, What? No!

Sarah: No!

Ashley: [Laughs] I’m like, Okay, cool, cool, cool, cool. But it was, it was, it was so, so much fun, and we, I, I stayed in and around booths, Boothbay. And so –

Sarah: Right.

Ashley: – there’s a, there’s a botanical garden, the Boothbay Botanical Garden [Coastal Maine Botanical Gardens] that has, like, the, the, the trolls and everything. And so we took a day trip there, and that was really fun. But most of the gar-, the magical garden-ness actually came from my childhood?

Sarah: Oooh!

Ashley: Yeah, so, so I mentioned my, my Oma before. She’s, she’s the mom, she’s, she is my grandmother on, on my dad’s side. And she had the greenest thumb of anyone I ever knew. She could, she could take a little, like, twig and she could make it bloom, basically. She had this beautiful, beautiful garden in her backyard, and I stayed with them almost every day of my childhood, because both my parents worked, and so my, my, my Opa would, would pick me up in his old, like, gray Cadillac and, you know –

Sarah: Oh yeah, a car that’s like nine miles wide. I remember those. Big ol’ hoopty car.

Ashley: Yeah! Yeah, it was, it, it was so great. I had the backseat all to myself and, and his oxygen tank, so it was –

Sarah: Yep!

Ashley: – it was good. And so I, I remember just playing almost every day of my childhood in that garden that she would, that she would, that she would, like, cultivate, and she was out there every single day on her hands and knees, and, and she wouldn’t let me help! Nononono, she had to do it herself. She was –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – like, she was very, very, very particular. In, like, the best way though, because she, she made, like, real world magic. It was, it was really, it was a really, really lovely childhood, and I’m very, very thankful for it. But yeah, it was just basically, it was basically just me writing about missing my, my grandmother’s garden.

Sarah: That’s really lovely!

Ashley: Thank you.

Sarah: What a green witch she must have been.

Ashley: Truly, she was! And so was my dad, but me? Me? No, no, no, no, no.

Sarah: You have a different kind of witchcraft, trust me.

[Laughter]

Ashley: I, yeah, I, I can, like, you give me any plant and I, and I can kill it. It doesn’t matter what it is. Pothos, cactus, snake plant? No, no, don’t worry about it. A weed? I can even kill a weed! So. [Laughs]

Sarah: So no magical gardens for you.

Ashley: I’m trying very, very hard. I have this, I, I have this new endeavor where, where I have like a hydroponic pond situation, and I have, well, I used to have five goldfish; now I have four. Not through anything of, of, of my own doing, you know.

Sarah: Oh no. Goldfish just check out.

Ashley: Yeah! I mean –

Sarah: They’re like, Thanks, done, bye.

Ashley: Yeah, I mean, this one just checked out via raccoon, but it’s fine. [Laughs] It’s –

Sarah: These things happen.

Ashley: It is –

Sarah: It’s the circle of life!

Ashley: It is a learning experience. And so, and so now I have plants, like, that I’m trying to grow hydroponically.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And we’ll see if it works! I really do not think it will, but, you know, hope is evergreen –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Ashley: – unlike my thumb. [Laughs]

Sarah: And I’m, I remember once reading online, and it, it’s a pretty popular meme, so I could not cite my source if you paid me –

Ashley: [Laughs]

Sarah: – but I remember someone saying that as humans, we are just basically plants with complex emotions. We need water, we need air, we need sunlight, sometimes we need food, but we’re basically houseplants with very complicated emotional systems.

Ashley: [Gasps] I love that so much –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ashley: – and now I’m wondering what kind of, what kind of house plant am I? I think – I don’t know!

Sarah: Hmm.

Ashley: I think I might be a rubber plant, if we’re being honest. [Laughs]

Sarah: I think you would be, I think you would be a succulent.

Ashley: [Gasps] Oooh!

Sarah: Like, there, there’s a, there’s an old podcast that I loved –

Ashley: I am usually really dry, so.

Sarah: Dry, don’t require a lot of attention. Like, I have a bunch of succulents, and I have an app that tells me when to water them because I have to water them so infrequently, and I have no concept of time, that I’m like, I don’t know if it’s been a week or a year since I last watered y’all, and overwatering is bad. So I actually have an app say, Yep, it’s time to water the guys! But the, there –

Ashley: I might need that. [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s wonderful. It’s called – it’s so cute! I think it’s called Cheerful Plants. I’ll send you a link.

Ashley: Okay.

Sarah: But there was an old podcast I love called Friendshipping, and they, it was a podcast about friendship –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – but they had a, a concept of cactus friends, which are friends who are just always there, and they don’t need a lot of water and attention, but the minute you show up, you’re just right back where you were.

Ashley: Yeah!

Sarah: And I’m very, I’m a cactus friend for so many people? Like, you know, we could not talk for a while, and then we show back up, and it’s like you are you, and I’m myself, and we’re going to connect, and it’s going to be like we haven’t been apart. And I think succulents are kind of similar? Like, they just sort of chill; they, they do neat things; they spiral; some of them look kind of cool.

Ashley: Yeah. Some of them –

Sarah: But they don’t want –

Ashley: – are little pointy things.

Sarah: Yeah! And they’re, sometimes they look really intimidating, but they’re actually really kind of plush and fuzzy. And they don’t require a lot of attention and fuss? They have very specific requirements?

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: The one thing that I can’t give my succulents that they should have is because I’m in Maryland: they need more sun than I can provide, because I only have one south-facing window – I’m working on it. But, like, the, the idea that there are plants that don’t need you to fuss over them, those are my favorite ones.

Ashley: Yes.

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: Those are, those are also my favorite ones, but those are the ones that I kill the most frequently, because –

[Laughter]

Sarah: I’ll send you this app. It’ll remind you, you should water them! Maybe do some things!

Ashley: Please! Please, because, because this, this book is actually dedicated to one of those succulents that I, that I have, that I…

Sarah: Nooo! Oh no!

Ashley: Yeah. His name was Elvis. He was such a good succulent, until I watered him and he floated. So.

Sarah: Yeah, that’s going to cause a problem.

Ashley: [Laughs] Yeah. I was like, Oh no, he left the building.

Sarah: Buddy!

Ashley: Oh no!

Sarah: [Laughs] Left the building.

So I have some questions from my Patreon community, including one from Nicole. Now, you’ve sort of answered some of this question a little bit already, but I’d love to hear you talk more about it. Nicole wrote:

>> Your romances are both really grounded in reality and incorporate fantastical elements. What draws you to that genre in particular? And how do you choose the next element that you’re going to incorporate?

Now, I know you answered that part, but I would love to hear you talk more about it, because –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – there are not a lot of, right now, writers who are doing that –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and I think it’s a very unique space for you and, and writers like Kirsty Greenwood to occupy because it’s a unique form of contemporary romance, which we re-, really need right now.

Ashley: Yes. There’s, there’s, there’s, like, more coming out every day, which I am so here for. Like, please give me all of them. Like, the only reason I, like, wrote them is because I want to read them. I –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Ashley: – I am like that person, I, I, I will only write what I also want to read. I’m not going to –

Sarah: Hundred percent.

Ashley: – I’m not going to chase trends; I’m not going to do any of that. And sometimes –

Sarah: [Snorts]

Ashley: – it is to my detriment, sure, but, but on the other side of that, like, that’s kind of how I got here was that I, I wrote a paranormal romance that, like, wasn’t, that I didn’t think would sell, and then all of a sudden it did. Like, so, so, like, not, not writing to trend kind of, like, works anyway, because, like, even if you try to write to trend, you will be on the tail end of that trend anyway, and so you won’t actually make the wave, like, like, like, make that wave. Why don’t you start your own wave?

Sarah: Absolutely true. Especially with the speed of publishing. Unless you’re going to publish it tomorrow –

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: – that, it, the, the speed to market is just not there.

Ashley: It’s not there. Like, like, indie publishing is way, way, way different, and I am definitely not qualified to talk about, like, the speed or, like, how to –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – how to navigate that sphere? And so I am only talking about trad pub.

Sarah: Right, obviously, yeah.

Ashley: Yeah. But, but I feel like I, I need to, like, di-, differentiate, because, like, I do hold, like, a lot of, a lot of indie publishing to, like, a really high standard too, because I love reading indie books. Like, some of my favorite books that I found recently have been indie books, who have later gotten trad deals because they started a frickin’ wave! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep!

Ashley: And so, and so, okay, so the question was how do I…

Sarah: What draws you to the genre, and how do you choose the next element?

Ashley: So – [sighs] – I – the truth is, is that I get really bored with just contemporary romances. I just can’t do it. I grew up in fanfic. I, like, cut my teeth on, on fanfiction.net when I was twelve years old, and if you, like, look on fanfic.net or AO3, you, you usually won’t find a straight contemporary. I mean, you won’t find a straight contemporary anyway, usually. But – [laughs]

Sarah: Certainly not straight; maybe contemporary. [Laughs]

Ashley: Maybe contemporary, yeah. And, and, and so, like, I, I, I think for me it was just what I read in my formative years kind of influenced what I write now, and I just read a lot of magical contemporaries or, or, like, or, or AU fantasies, or even, like, coffee shop AUs have, like, this, like, magical-ness to them, right? And so for me, I just, I just, I, I applaud everyone who, who does not have to put magic in their story, but could not be me, Dog. [Laughs] I can’t do it.

And what, like, why, like, what, how I pick my next, like, magic, like the, the next gimmick, it really all depends on, like, the setting, the characters, their, their, their trajectories. Like, it just, it just really all depends on that. And also what my, what my publisher will say yes to, because I am, sadly, trad pub, so I am beholden to the monster. [Laughs]

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yep.

Ashley: And so, like, a not insignificant trick is to getting people on board with my weirder ideas. Sometimes, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t! There, there are some super weird ideas that I have thrown at them that, that they were like, Ohhh, that might not, that’s a little too, that’s, that’s a little too weird. Well, they didn’t say that; they’re, they’re, they’re like, We don’t know how to market this. And I’m like –

Sarah: That’s always the answer: I don’t know how to market this.

Ashley: Like, well, the answer is throw money at it! [Laughs]

Sarah: Throw money at it, and you, you are the ones who, who make the market. I’ve –

Ashley: Yeah!

Sarah: – I’ve seen you do it. Like, if they wanted to, they would.

Ashley: If they wanted to, they would, exactly. So, so I guess, I, I guess for me it was just like finding something just weird enough for me that is, like –

Sarah: Marketable for them. [Laughs]

Ashley: – basically, that is palatable for them.

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: But with that said, the next book after Someday Garden that’s coming out from, from – like, my, my next adult coming out next year is super weird! And, and they let me do everything except one thing that I really wanted to do that they were like, No, Ashley, that’s too weird. So I’m very excited about that one. And it’s like, it’s going to be a new era for me, because I am, I am, I, I am in fact stepping away from magical romances for a little while. Well, magical contemporary romances.

Sarah: I always ask later, what are you working on?

Ashley:[Laughs]

Sarah: Would you like to talk about that now? What are you work-, what, what is this book? Tell more!

Ashley: Sure!

Sarah: Entice everyone. Make everyone mad they can’t order it now.

Ashley: I’m not sure how much I can talk about it, but I will say that it’s not a magical contemporary. I’m not going to have another one for at least a year, maybe two. So I’m stepping away from, from that for a while. It’s the end of an era is what I’m saying.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Ashley: You know what? And, like, I feel, I feel good about it, because there are so many other authors that are, like, stepping up to the plate and doing, like, such, such fantastic stories that I feel okay, okay, you know, being like, I’m going to try something else for a while.

Sarah: Got to start your next wave!

Ashley: Exactly! Exactly.

Sarah: Every wave hits the shore; they don’t go on forever. That’s the nature of a wave!

Ashley: Yeah, that’s the nature of a wave! And so you’ve got to go and take your boogie board and go back out there.

Sarah: That’s right!

Ashley: And so that’s, that, that’s kind of what I’m doing. It is a romantasy.

Sarah: Ohhh!

Ashley: But it is one that I personally have not, like, the, the format is something that I have not read before.

Sarah: Oooh.

Ashley: So I’m very excited.

Sarah: I love how open-ended it, that is. The format is not something I’ve seen before. “So it has these things in it called cassette tapes, and you take them out of the book –“

Ashley: [Laughs]

Sarah: “– and you have to get a player and put them in.” [Laughs]

Ashley: Well, and then, and then you press Play, and then, and then after, and then after a set amount of time you pause and you go back to the, to, to the book in question.

Sarah: Yes, exactly.

Ashley: Oh God.

Sarah: And then you have to get another dual tape deck to make a copy of that. Yeah, it’s a whole thing.

Ashley: It’s a whole thing.

Sarah: So many possibilities! I’m ver-, I’m very excited, and I’m very curious.

Ashley: Me too!

Sarah: Congratulations, by the way.

Ashley: Thank you!

Sarah: It’s, it’s hard to go in a new direction, but I completely hear you when it comes to doing what I call writing your catnip?

Ashley: Mm-hmm. Well, you know what? It’s, it, it’s so fun that you say catnip, because it does have a very prominent cat in it. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, win! Win, win, win, all the way down, you’re fine.

Ashley: March.

Sarah: Doesn’t matter what wave this is, it’s got cats. If the wave has cats, you’re good.

Ashley: [Laughs] It has one singular cat, and everyone’s going to love him and hate him at the exact same time.

Sarah: Perfect! Sounds like a cat!

Ashley: Exactly! Exactly!

Sarah: Yep. I hear you, though. I, when I wrote, I wrote a Hanukkah novella and self-published it in 2014, mostly because there weren’t any.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And I’m like, Hanukkah’s a very romantic holiday: we got candlelight –

Ashley: Yeah!

Sarah: – we got jelly donuts! Like, it’s very romantic. And I was like –

Ashley: And it’s eight days long!

Sarah: And it’s eight days! Like, there’s so much you can do. And there were so few Hanukkah romances, and there were so many Christmas romances. I was like, well, screw it. I have this rule I can’t complain about things three times? If, after three times complaining about them, I either have to shut up or do something. But –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – three is the limit. And –

Ashley: You’ve got to write it yourself?

Sarah: Yeah. So I was like, Well, I’m just going to write what I want to read. So I wrote all my favorite tropes; I wrote all my favorite settings; I set it at Hanukkah. And I was really, really happy with it, and when I reread it now, it still works on me. I still get the emotional fulfillment, even though I wrote it, ‘cause, probably ‘cause my memory’s so bad, I don’t remember the specific words?

Ashley: [Laughs]

Sarah: But when you write what you want to read, it, it, it’s entertaining while you do it, and then it’s entertaining after, too!

Ashley: Yeah. Oh no, I, I always go back and reread, like, my favorite parts of, of, of my novels, because, like, it, it does, like, like, give me that Oh, this is, this is the feeling! This is the feeling that –

Sarah: The chest tingles, right?

Ashley: Yeah!

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: It’s, it’s like, this is it! And, like, usually when I feel, like, so burnt out and when I am, like, struggling to, to, to remember why I took this job to begin with – because, like, spoiler, trad pub is not for the faint of heart, and it kinda sucks most of the time!

Sarah: It does. It does indeed.

Ashley: Like, like, like, everyone now is, is mostly like, Oh, but you’re so successful now, and I’m like, Well yeah, but you, you, you missed the, the ten years where I wasn’t – [laughs] –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – because no one knew about me!

Sarah: Mm-hmm. And you had to, you had to fix that.

Ashley: Yeah! Exactly, and –

Sarah: I, I have to tell you something very aside. So one of the features we do on the podcast is that we recap old issues of Romantic Times magazine, which was a magazine from about 1981 to about 2018 –

Ashley: Yep.

Sarah: – and they would review – and obviously the era of trad pub – they would review every single romance published every month. They would get advanced lists from publishers. They had a whole column of what was coming out in paperback after hardback. They had all these features. And it was really like a combination review journal and celebrity magazine –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – about romance.

Ashley: I remember.

Sarah: And it’s a wonderful historical treasure trove. So I, we, this month we are looking at the May 1996 issue, so a solid thirty years ago.

Ashley: Yes!

Sarah: Now, I just need to read you something from their little gossip column, and you are going to, like, come apart. Okay.

>> Robert Gottlieb, agent extraordinaire at William Morris, made a mega-deal for Kat Martin at St. Martin’s. The negotiations included the release of a new book every six months, like Johanna Lindsey’s schedule, and major television promotion for all her books.

Right? I was like, I’m sorry –

Ashley: I’m sorry?

Sarah: Right?! Like, major television promotion for every book?

Ashley: I’m, I’m, I’m sorry, like, like, like, an actual, like, adverti- – I do! I remember advertisements back in the, back in the early aughts for books!

Sarah: Yeah! Yeah, they used to do –

Ashley: Oh my God!

Sarah: Like, book trailers were sort of the, the, the online version of a lot of, like, The new book from Clive Cussler, or, you know, the major authors would get –

Ashley: I remember, though!

Sarah: Yeah, you’d get book commercials! So this agent booked a deal with St. Martin’s in the ‘90s that included TV ads for the books. And then it says:

>> TV ads for Midnight Rider began appearing in February on the Lifetime Channel; on Oprah Winfrey in New York, LA, and Chicago; and on Good Morning America. The deal was for two historicals, tentative, tentatively titled Lady Blue and Scarlett Moon, and one untitled contemporary.

So that’s three books, two genres, and it comes with – [laughs] – Good-bye, Ashley, good-bye!

Ashley: I can’t go down anymore! Oh no!

Sarah: Can you believe that? Like, the, the deal came with TV ads!

Ashley: How –

Sarah: Now, we don’t have TV anymore unless you were like, Your book deal is going to come with, like, streaming ads on Roku or something, which I mean, honestly, that would be a good investment.

Ashley: Yeah!

Sarah: Can you imagine this, though? I read that and I just had to stop! [Laughs]

Ashley: I’m sorry? Like, I, what, what – publishing was inventive back in the day? They did new things? What? What is this? I mean – [laughs]

Sarah: Incredible, right? I just –

Ashley: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s truly just – can you imagine now going to a publisher and being like, And as part of this deal, I want you to guarantee me television ad space on streaming and cable networks.

Ashley: Could you, could you imagine, like, not even, like, cable ad space, but, like, just, like, a YouTube advertisement? Just –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: Like, w- –

Sarah: YouTube campaign.

Ashley: Yeah!

Sarah: Or those ads that are always at the top of a streaming channel. Or if you have the free service, there’s always ads in the middle? Like, listen, I know that pharmaceutical ads pay really well, and I also know that those ads are very expensive, ‘cause they’re –

Ashley: Very.

Sarah: – like, so much special effects. Like, your ulcerative colitis appears as a vine and wraps around your body and you have to get a hammer and destroy it. They’re all very – there’s a lot of special effects.

Ashley: It’s a metaphor!

Sarah: Yes! It’s so much metaphorical special effects in the pharmaceutical ad. But listen, if you stopped my show and then showed me a book ad, I would be in! I would be so curious.

Ashley: Ah!

Sarah: I can’t even imagine what that price point is, but imagine if that was still happening. That would be so cool.

Ashley: The last one that I remember was, okay, like, full disclosure, I was a marketing designer at Bloomsbury for a while. So, so, so –

Sarah: You’re familiar with this world; you’re very fluent with it.

Ashley: Oh yes! So, so, so the last one I remember actually doing was for ACOTAR, when, when ACOTAR came out, because we did, we did a playable ad for, for Entertainment Weekly, I think.

Sarah: Yep!

Ashley: And yeah, now we don’t, you don’t see that anymore! Like –

Sarah: Nope!

Ashley: – hardly ever!

Sarah: Nope. And if you think about it, so many publishers pivoted to video and created these huge video suites, which they’ve now abandoned because the pivot to video was made up entirely by Meta. And so you, you could have had in-house production, but now it’s production companies, and they’re not going to spend that money.

Ashley: No, no, they’re not. And, like, usually for like fifty books you have one overworked and underpaid marketing designer just –

Sarah: Always:

Ashley: – just doing, doing the most with –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Ashley: – absolutely nothing.

Sarah: They got, they got Canva, barely.

Ashley: Oh, yeah! I had to, like, I, I, I am old enough to, to have to had to have learned Canva. Like, I was like, Oh! I can’t, I can’t use Photoshop anymore, or, or, or InDesign. I have to go to Canva now. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Ashley: So.

Sarah: So one of my questions is from Claudia, who is a friend we have in common –

Ashley: Yeah!

Sarah: – you know from Y’all West, or YALLFest, sorry.

Ashley: YALLFest, yeah!

Sarah: YALLFest. And I went –

Ashley: Hi, Claudia. [Laughs]

Sarah: I went to college with Claudia in South Carolina. Now, I need to help, I need to ask for your help: I’ve never heard the name of the hero of The Seven Year Slip; I’ve only read it.

Ashley: Ooh, okay. Okay, so –

Sarah: You can just say whatever you want, and it’s fine. ‘Cause you said it, it’s canon. No pressure.

Ashley: Oh, that’s so much pressure! Okay, so, so there are people that pronounce it you-wen.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: There’s people that pronounce it eye-win.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Ashley: I pronounce it ee-win.

Sarah: Okay, then! So we’ll go with ee-win.

Ashley: Yeah. But, but they are, they are all correct, and –

Sarah: They’re all right.

Ashley: – they’re, they’re, they’re all correct pronunciations. Like, I think the audiobook does you-wen?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: But I’ve always done ee-win because – [clears throat] – I, I, I am from South Carolina, I’m currently in South Carolina, and South Carolina famously has a very robust education system?

[Pause…laughter]

Ashley: So, uh –

Sarah: Uh-huh!

Ashley: – yeah, we, we’re doing great. Doing so great here! [Laughs] But yeah, so, so ee-win.

Sarah: Iwan. If you could have Iwan cook you any Southern dish that’s not in the book –

Ashley: [Gasps]

Sarah: – which one would it be and why?

Ashley: That is –

Sarah: It’s a hard question.

Ashley: Hmm, that’s a really hard question. You know – [deep breath, big sigh] – I am a Southern gal at heart – 

Sarah: Yep!

Ashley: – so my, my soul says I would love for him to cook me, like, chicken livers or, like, gizzards? But –

Sarah: Ooh!

Ashley: – with that said, he is still a white boy, and I’m not sure I trust him with that. [Laughs] Because –

Sarah: Fair!

Ashley: Yeah, because, like, fa-, famously a lot of Southern cuisine actually comes from, like, the Black cooks that were on, you know, plantations and all of that.

Sarah: Yep.

Ashley: And so, like, a lot of our cuisine comes from Black culture! So –

Sarah: Yep!

Ashley: – so that, so, yeah, I’m not sure, I’m not sure I would really trust him with that, if we’re being honest. But what I would trust him with would be my mom’s fried chicken, I think.

Sarah: Oh, see, now that’s a good answer.

Ashley: I, I think he could absolutely slay my mom’s fried chicken.

Sarah: I want some cheese grits, if I can put in a request. I would just – like, I live in Maryland, but like I said, I went to college in South Carolina. I consider – I am from Pittsburgh, but I consider myself a low-key and honorary Southerner because I have a four-year degree from a South Carolina women’s college. So I –

Ashley: Can I ask you from where?

Sarah: Columbia College of South Carolina.

Ashley: Columbia! Okay, yeah!

Sarah: Yes, you’re the only other person who’s heard of it.

Ashley: Really?

Sarah: Well, around here I’m like, I went to a small women’s college in the South. They’re like, Oh, okay. Like, no one’s, no one’s heard of where I went to school outside of South Carolina. In South Carolina, everyone knows where I went to school.

Ashley: Oh yeah, no, because like there’s only, like, a few accredited colleges around here! [Laughs]

Sarah: There’s only four now!

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: And I didn’t go to USC, so it’s – and I didn’t go to Clemson.

Ashley: Mm…

Sarah: But I, I consider myself like a low-key honorary Southerner, because four years at a women’s college in South Carolina in the ‘90s will give you a very thorough education in Southern culture.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And I was, I was always told that I was the one with the accent, which I found high-larious.

Ashley: [Laughs]

Sarah: But my God, cheese grits.

Ashley: Oh God.

Sarah: You, you cannot get them anywhere –

Ashley: No.

Sarah: – north of the, like, outside of the South. It, it’s, it’s almost like bagels in New York, where you need the water to make them taste good?

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: Something about cheese grits in the South is different, and they need to be in the South.

Ashley: Ooh, ooh, ooh! I would, I would love Iwan to just be like a line cook at Waffle House for a day.

Sarah: Oh! My, yes!

Ashley: Mm! Yeah.

Sarah: Smothered, covered, and chunked all the way. And scattered.

Ashley: Oh! Smothered, covered, and diced for me.

Sarah: Ooh, that’s a good combo!

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: So Jimmy, who goes with Claudia, they are, they are a matched set like salt and pepper. Lilymoor grows flowers! So what are your favorite flowers, and do they grow at Lilymoor? Is there significance to these flowers? For example, honeysuckle is Claudia’s favorite ‘cause it takes her back to where we grew up.

Ashley: My favorite flower is one that doesn’t die on me?

Sarah: I mean, look –

Ashley: [Laughs]

Sarah: – I get it!

Ashley: But in a perfect world, if I had my Oma’s green thumb, I would probably actually say azaleas, because they were my Oma’s favorite most of the time. Or, or Edelweiss, as well? Because she’s, she’s also from, from Germany. She’s from the foothills of the Bavarian Alps.

Sarah: Yep.

Ashley: And so, and so she, she, she learned how, how to garden in a, in, like, a very, a very interesting time.

Sarah: On a, on a rock, and then in the South. Yeah. Very different.

Ashley: Very different! And –

Sarah: Yep.

Ashley: – and my Opa was a, was, was the son of collard and cotton farmers? [Laughs] So, you know what? Just, somehow I still don’t have a green thumb. It’s fine.

[Laughter]

Ashley: But yeah! It’s – we’re fine.

Sarah: How much flower research did you do for this book?

Ashley: Oh, so much! I, I did, I, I, I went to the library a whole lot. Because if, if, if you don’t know, the, the, the knowledge that I have of flowers that grow well in South Carolina are vastly different from the flowers that grow in Maine.

Sarah: Completely different USDA zones, right there.

Ashley: Yeah, well –

Sarah: Like, way different. Yep.

Ashley: Way – like, like, like – [laughs] – three zone differences at that point. So I read a lot about flowers grown in Maine, and it helps that I, that I have friends who are in upstate New York who, like, it’s the same, like, region? And so –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – I, I texted with them, and I called them about every question that I had and, and they, they are, they are flower farmers, and so just truly, truly lovely. And, and so I was, I was like, Noelle, would this, would this actually, like, grow here? Or I would ask, like, Alyssa, like, At what point would you have to, like, plant these to get them to bloom at X amount of time?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And then I also had to do a lot of research about, like, just bot-, botanical gardens in general?

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: Because, because, like, what, like, there’s, like, there’s a lot of science involved, obviously. It’s, it’s, it, it’s horticulture. [Laughs]

Sarah: Little bit, yeah. It’s, it is a Bachelor of Science, in fact. Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah, exactly. It’s, it is, it is, like, everyone’s like, Oh, you’re just a gardener. Nononononono. There’s, there’s so much involved with, like, having a beautiful garden. Like –

Sarah: It’s so true.

Ashley: – most of the blooming season, because, ’cause, like, the, ’cause flowers don’t bloom all season. They, they, like, you have to, you have to spread them out so they bloom in waves?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And so there’s always a part of the garden that is, that is in bloom, and you have to, you have to do math to do that! And I was like –

Sarah: Yep!

Ashley: – that right there, you know, I would, I, I would, I would fail immediately. [Laughs] So.

Sarah: And it’s funny to bring that back to talking about waves of trends earlier. You know, that’s a, that’s a wave you can plan.

Ashley: Yes!

Sarah: You know, you can’t play, plan the wave of a new trend. You can’t really predict that, but you can plan the waves of your garden so that they grow in segments and, and you have seasonal flowers moving through each, you know, period of the sun.

Ashley: Yes, and there’s, and there’s, like, always something to, like, look forward to. I, I –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – I, I think in some way there are, there are waves in trends, too. Like, you know every, every spooky season there’s going to be a wave of some kind of paranormal, and you know towards the holiday there’s going to be some kind of wave of holiday magical rom-com-iness. So I think there are, like, a few waves that you, that, that are, like, cyclical, but yeah, like, planning the, like, really, like, big ones, the, the monster waves, that’s –

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: – that’s almost impossible.

Sarah: That does require a bachelor of science.

Ashley: Yes. [Laughs] And a lot of money.

Sarah: Oh, just a little bit.

So one thing I do when I’m doing an interview is I look at your past interviews, I look at things that you’ve said, so I don’t want to, I don’t want to ask the same questions you’re hearing over and over and over again.

Ashley: I appreciate that!

Sarah: No problem! I do this a lot, and I don’t want to ask the same questions over either.

[Laughter]

Ashley: …boring! Like –

Sarah: No. So eleven years ago, you did an AMA on Reddit –

Ashley: Oh my God!

Sarah: – and someone asked you – wha-, I’m sorry, do you need a moment to adjust to the passage of time? I know it’s a long fucking time ago. Listen, when the site turned twenty-one, I needed to just take like a minute to be like, Holy shit, my site can drink? My book blog can drink alcohol! [Laughs]

Ashley: Congratulations to your book blog –

Sarah: …right?

Ashley: – for being able to drink alcohol, especially –

Sarah: Right?

Ashley: – in this day and age; it’s going to need it. [Laughs]

Sarah: I know, I know!

So eleven years ago, you did an AMA on Reddit. It was cross-posted to a bunch of different YA subreddits. It was, it was a really good AMA. Someone asked you what your favorite part of the writing process is, and your answer then was that you love to make yourself laugh at your own writing, which, can relate: my favorite thing about my own writing. How would you answer that question today?

Ashley: You know, I am so glad that of everything that has changed in my career, that, like, you know, that’s just, that’s, that’s a very strong contender.

Sarah: Look, cracking yourself up is, I think is a, a key to happiness. Being able to laugh at yourself? Like, not, not even just laughing at your own foibles, but making yourself laugh –

Ashley: Yeah!

Sarah: – is a way to survive really hard times.

Ashley: Truly! And, like, it’s, it’s, especially, like, especially now. So I, my last few books have been about grief and overcoming them and, like, like, I feel like it was very fortuitous that that was my favorite thing, because, like, like, one of my, one of my main tenets of writing about grief and, and, like, processing and, and trauma and working through it is that there needs to be moments of levity. Like, like, you’re, like, a character’s emotion and the reader’s emotion is a pendulum that swings?

Sarah: Yes.

Ashley: So when something is really, really funny, that means that you are allowed to have this, like, really deep, really emotional swing on the other side, and then when it comes back, the next thing is going to be just as funny, if not funnier, because, like, that’s how, that’s how you, that’s how human emotions work. Like –

Sarah: Yep.

Ashley: – once you, and, and once, like, that, that swing starts –

Sarah: Yep.

Ashley: – it’s a lot easier to write really deep emotional moments, like, juxtaposed to really fun, exciting moments, like in Someday Garden, the moments with Damnit – I love the moments with Damnit! [Laughs]

Sarah: That goose is maniacal!

Ashley: I love her so much. She is based off of a real goose that used to chase me around at my other grandparents’ house.

[Laughter]

Sarah: That goose was a menace!

Ashley: An absolute menace!

Sarah: Yep!

Ashley: Just, you know what? I, I love that about –

Sarah: Geese’ll mess you up!

Ashley: They really will, and they hurt when they catch you, too!

Sarah: They don’t care! They are going to mess you up!

Ashley: Oh, my other grandparents lived on a lake, and so they had a lot of geese around, and so I just remember, like, every summer just being pockmarked by bruises from these geese. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep. It hurts when they bite!

Ashley: It really, really does, and they’re like, they’re, they’re like little snakes.

But oh gosh, my, my, my favorite thing about writing now. I, I don’t think it is making myself laugh anymore. I, I, I think, like, if it was just, if I was writing in a box and I wasn’t thinking about the wider implications in the rest of the world, I think I might say that, but, again, but now?

Sarah: This was eleven years ago!

Ashley: Yeah, but it, and, like, and, and eleven years ago I, I was a nobody, right? I had, I had nine people whose, my book was their favorite thing. And now I have like a hundred people whose, who love my book as their ninth favorite thing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – right. And, and so I, I guess, I guess my favorite thing now is being able to write something and then meeting a reader at an event or something and them coming up and sharing their own stories with me, because I, I also wrote a lot of my own personal emotions and, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – experiences into, into my books. Like, with The Seven Year Slip, I was writing a book that in the middle of drafting it, my, my grandfather died by suicide. And –

Sarah: Oh gosh, I’m so sorry.

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: That’s terrible!

Ashley: It was, it, it was a lot at the moment, especially when I was writing a book that I had already pre-planned that that was how the aunt had also passed away. And so I, I think now my favorite part is, is meeting people who, like, don’t have the exact same kind of, like, bruise, but have similar-shaped bruises?

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: Because I don’t like calling them scars –

Sarah: No.

Ashley: – because, because I, I don’t think a grief is a scar. I, I think, I think you can heal from it? I, I think you will always remember a bruise and, like, oh, that bruise is really, really bad. It stuck around for a really long time. It was in the shape of Texas! So –

Sarah: It turned greeen! And ohhh –

Ashley: Yeah!

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: But I love the hope that, like, you can, that, like, with time and love and patience and, and care, you can, you can heal from it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: You won’t be the same after it, and you probably won’t do the exact same thing that you did to get that bruise, or you will, like, look out for the thing that, that, that gave you that bruise. But, but I always like the hopeful idea that, that you can heal from it. So, so I love, I love meeting other people that have that same bruise and kind of like hearing their bruises and hearing about them, because a lot of the time it’s really hard to talk about, especially with loved ones who die by suicide. It’s almost a taboo topic –

Sarah: Yes.

Ashley: – ‘cause, like –

Sarah: People don’t want to talk about it.

Ashley: – no one wants to talk about it. It’s this, it’s, it’s – because, you know, because for so long it was, the, the wording was “committed suicide,” right? Which is –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – which immediately says that that is wrong and that is something that is –

Sarah: Right, you commit a crime.

Ashley: You commit a crime! Like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Ashley: And it’s like, oh, committing suicide is, yeah, like, you, you committed death to yourself, and I’m like, No. If you, if you believe that about someone, you never actually talked with them, you never loved them, you never, you, you never sat down with them.

And so I, I love talking with people because, about those kinds of bruises because it’s, it’s just one of those things that people usually don’t talk to other people about and it’s hard to talk about.

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: And it’s a lot easier to talk to someone else who, like, has a similar shaped one that, that you do. So I, I think that is my favorite part. Is it, is it taxing, and is it, and is it a lot to, to, to hear about these stories? Absolutely, but I am also happy to be, to be an ear. There’s nothing I can, I can do, but sometimes just, just listening to someone talk about it for thirty seconds, that’s enough. Like, that’s, that’s all that I needed when I, when I needed someone to listen to, to a story so that, so that I could, I could keep my, that loved one’s memory alive for a little while longer by talking about it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: So I think that’s really important.

Sarah: Well, it goes back to what we were saying earlier about resonance and recognizing someone and, or recognizing something that will be significant to you that you don’t know why you’re so into this thing, but you –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – it resonates. Your books are resonance mechanisms for readers. And when I am asked the question, Why is romance so popular? – which I get a lot – I always say something along the lines that romance traffics in empathy.

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: Romance wants you to feel. You know, mysteries and thrillers are giving you a puzzle –

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – also some feelings. Genre fiction generally wants you to feel.

Ashley: Mm.

Sarah: And romance wants to invoke very intimate emotions in the reader.

Ashley: Yeah.

Sarah: I, I think that’s also –

Ashley: It, like, dares you to care.

Sarah: Yes! It dares you to care deeply. And that, that caring is part of the magic of reading romance. And that emotional connectivity where you have, as you said, bruises of similar shapes, that resonance mechanism is just, is, is so important, because again, much like recognizing someone’s weird, you’re not the only one. You aren’t alone in that. And gr-, the other thing about grief is not only does it make you stuck, but it makes you feel isolated, makes you feel very alone, because you’re the one having all these terrible feelings, and some –

Ashley: No one else does, right?

Sarah: No one else does, and they come in waves. Like, grief comes – like, going back to waves – great, grief comes in massive waves, and all of a sudden you can’t breathe, and you’re like, Well, why are you crying in the middle of the, of the canned food aisle? And like, well –

Ashley: [Laughs]

Sarah: – you know, Del Monte vegetables made me cry because I’m remembering so-and-so. And it’s like, any person who’s aware of their emotions is going to be like, Oh man, I once cried at the popsicles; I understand. But most people are like, like you said, you don’t want to talk about death. Nonono, it’s not a pop, proper social topic. Romance bypasses all of that.

Ashley: It does, immediately.

Sarah: Yeah.

Ashley: Like, it, like, it gives you permission to just, to, to be human, and –

Sarah: Yes!

Ashley: – I love that so much about romance.

Sarah: Especially the imperfect part of being human. ‘Cause, like you said, you can’t have a character who starts off emotionally complete and whole because – [laughs] – well, that’s boring! You can’t do that!

Ashley: Who, who, who is emotionally complete and whole? Like –

Sarah: No, not me.

Ashley: Not me! [Laughs]

Sarah: So speaking of romances, I do always ask this question: are there any books that you’re reading that you want to tell people about?

Ashley: Quite a few! Obviously I’m reading Romantic Hero by Kirsty Greenwood again. Amazing.

Sarah: It’s so good. It’s so good.

Ashley: So, so, so good.

Sarah: I, I, I both laughed out loud and also cried!

Ashley: Yes!

Sarah: Yes.

Ashley: [Laughs] I read a super early ARC of it and now I am rereading it, and I usually don’t reread books, but this is one that I knew that I wanted to, to, like, reread in, like –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Ashley: – in preparation.

Sarah: I get to go to New York events with her later in June, so I get to see her in June; I’m very excited.

Ashley: Oh my gosh, that’s so exciting!

Sarah: We’re going to go see the Heated Rivalry parody musical.

Ashley: What.

Sarah: [Laughs] There is a Heated Rivalry parody musical off Broadway. And I, I saw it and I was like, Okay, yeah, whatever. And I have two friends who have seen it, and they said it is so. Fucking. Good. Like, it’s incredible. Yeah. It’s off Broadway. One of the characters is Ilya’s ass. It’s a whole separate actor. Who is just Ilya’s ass.

Ashley: Okay, okay, this, this is not fair, because, because me and, and, like, Kirsty, we have books coming out on the exact same day, and we are literally –

Sarah: I know!

Ashley: – missing each other by a frickin’ day, and in…

Sarah: Yeah, listen, if you want to come to New York in June, come on up, ‘cause that’s where, we’ll be there.

I loved Romantic Hero, though. I just –

Ashley: Oh, I do. So much.

Sarah: And I don’t love reading about romance writer main characters? There are a lot of them right now.

Ashley: Yes.

Sarah: And, and I have a theory; like, we were discussing publishing. My theory is that this is romance authors who are in a terrible industry at a terrible time with so many existential threats to the security of their creativity and their, and their business, between publishing laying off, contracting, AI, retailer mega-nopolies – like, just all of these factors that are outside of a writer’s control are having such a drastic effect on their careers, and mine too.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I think that the romance writer heroes and heroines are writers, current, alive writers, giving the characters a happy ending that they are not sure that they’re going to have.

Ashley: I agree! Honestly.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: Because, like, it’s, it’s, it, it’s rough out there, man.

Sarah: It is so rough out there, man. I know. Especially –

Ashley: It’s so rough. And, like –

Sarah: Fuck A, fuck AI!

Ashley: Fuck AI, truly. And you can, like, quote that, you know? [Laughs] But okay, yeah.

Sarah: I have neighbors that are like, Oh, I was asking AI, what do you think of AI? And I’m like, AI stole from me –

Ashley: Yeah!

Sarah: – so hard, I’m getting money about it.

Ashley: Same!

Sarah: So ask me, ask me how I feel about AI. It stole from me so hard, I’m getting a check.

Ashley: I’m get-, I’m getting a frickin’ check for it, yeah!

Sarah: God damn it, yes! [Laughs]

Ashley: It’s like, what do I think about AI? AI can go fuck itself! I mean…

Sarah: Generative AI can –

Ashley: – ’cause it’s, like, eating itself, but like –

Sarah: – fuck off a pier.

Ashley: Exactly. Like, like, there, there, there’s so much good that can be done with AI. We’re just –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – choosing not to do it. We’re just, we’re just –

Okay, if you haven’t read Score by Kennedy Ryan, please, like –

Sarah: Art.

Ashley: – treat yourself, do yourself a favor.

Sarah: Art.

Ashley: Truly!

Sarah: Art. Just truly art.

Ashley: I, I saw Kennedy like, like a few, like two months ago, and I was like, How dare you?

[Laughter]

Ashley: How dare you?

Sarah: I love, I love how much she’s winning.

Ashley: Oh, me too! Me too.

Sarah: Like, every piece of good news for her, I’m like, Yes!

Ashley: Yeah, I’m like –

Sarah: Hell yeah!

Ashley: – [roars]!

Sarah: That’s right!

Ashley: All of it! Just I, I just want a Kennedy-Ryan-verse just so, so badly.

Sarah: Oh yes.

Ashley: Kristina Forest’s new, new book that come, that comes out June 9th? 3rd? I think it might be out now; it might be out next week; I’m not sure. But it’s –

Sarah: The Summer Girlfriend?

Ashley: The Summer Girlfriend.

Sarah: June 9th.

Ashley: Yes. It was, it was fantastic. I read that I think two weeks ago? Mm, chef’s kiss. I love all of her contemporary novels. And, like, famously, as I said, I usually do not like contemporary, especially straight contemporary novels.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And, like, there’s just so-, some-, something about it which is so good. I love the way that, that she writes relationships and, like, the, the struggle to, like, communicate and, like, it’s just, she’s so good with feelings.

Let’s see here. Obviously, Dearly Departed by Chip Pons.

Oh, I also recently read the new Edward Underhill? The House of Every- – hmm. I…

Sarah: The House of Now and Then?

Ashley: Yes, The House of Now and Then. That was so good. If you like my, like, speculative contemporaries, like, that is – oh my God, prepare to cry and prepare to laugh. It was, it was amazing. It was, it was so good.

There’s a billion that I’ve read, but I’m blanking now. But –

Sarah: That’s fine!

Ashley: – that’s four! That’s good!

Sarah: That is, that is quite a list. That’s five books.

Ashley: Okay, that is five books. All right!

Sarah: If you put me on the spot to come up with five books, I would be like, Oh crap.

Ashley: Yeah, I mean, like, it, it, it helps that, like, most of them are kind of fresh in my head because I’m still just, like, percolating on them and thinking back –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: – and being like –

Sarah: Yes.

Ashley: Oh man, they’re so –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Ashley: – they were so good. I mean, Dearly Departed with, like, the Shadow Daddy tentacles, please! Like, I j-, like, I, I didn’t know that’s what I needed! And apparently Chip –

Sarah: This was what –

Ashley: – Chip knew.

Sarah: Chip knew. Chip knew what’s up.

Ashley: Happy Pride. [Laughs]

Sarah: Happy Pride! Tentacles.

Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Ashley: Ooh. Most days I don’t wish to be found. I would rather unzip myself from my skin suit and, and not be a person. But on, on the days that I do –

Sarah: I mean, hard same.

Ashley: [Laughs] Who, who doesn’t, though? I mean, if –

Sarah: Whomst?

Ashley: The, the second you can, you can find out how I can, like, get out of my mech suit, please let me know. I have, I’ve lost the Eject button.

[Laughter]

Ashley: But you can, you can find me on Instagram @heyashposton, because someone’s sitting on Ashley Poston. It’s fine. And you can also find me on Threads – I know, the cursed battleground – at –

Sarah: Ah! It’s, it is a never-ending source of incredulity.

Ashley: Yep. It’s just, it’s, it’s this echo chamber that just echoes back like farts? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes. Every now and again there’s great drama, but most of the time it’s like, Okay.

Ashley: Yeah. You’re like, Are we here again? We just, we just discussed this like two weeks ago, guys.

Sarah: Oh, listen, romance, romance discourse, especially on Threads, follows a planetary schedule. You know how, like, Mercury orbits around the sun like every so many days, and then you have Venus and Earth. So we have issues in romance that orbit frequently, we have semi-frequently, we have every year, every five years. So, like, does romance have to have an HEA? That’s like an annual to two-annual issue. You know, people trademarking phrases that they should not be trading; ehhh, it’s like ten –

Ashley: Oh, that’s happening right now.

Sarah: That’s happening right now; we’ve done that before. It was like eight, ten years ago, so that’s a ten-year cycle. Like, I’ve been, I’ve been writing about romance long enough where I’m like, Oh, are we talking about that again? Oh my God, I’m so old; we already talked about it twice!

Ashley: Yeah. I mean, someone, someone tried to trademark cock, and then Sarah J. Maas –

Sarah: Yep. Cocky?

Ashley: – tried to trademark all of the Illyrian stuff. Sure, man. And now it’s like a book blogger trying to copyright – what? Hot –

Sarah: Hot, hot – well, there’s Hot Girls Read –

Ashley: Hot Girls Read, yeah.

Sarah: – and then there was someone else trying to copyright Book Boyfriend. Which is just – [exasperated sigh] – listen.

Ashley: I’m, I’m sorry. Don’t quote the deep magic to me!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Do not quote the deep magic.

[More laughter]

Sarah: I feel like that a lot, actually. I feel like that all the time!

Thank you so much for doing this interview. I’ve had the best time. Claudia was right. I knew we would vibe. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your time today.

Ashley: This was so much fun! Thank you. I will be back to yap, like, whenever you want me. Like, I am yours. I, you have my axe.

Sarah: Awesome!

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you tremendously to Ashley for hanging out with me. I will have links to all of the books that we mentioned, and the gardens, at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 723.

I do have a question, though: what kind of houseplant are you? Are you a succulent, are you a pothos? Are you one of those people who has an entire wall full of green plants? I want to know what kind of plant you are.

As always, I end with a terrible joke, and this joke is awful, and I am so excited to share it with you! This joke I believe is from Leia Young? Thank you, Leia, wherever you are.

What is small and red and whispers?

[Whispers] Give up? What is small and red and whispers?

A hoarse radish.

[Laughs] Terrible joke is terrible! I hope that makes you groan and you tell many people.

On behalf of everyone here, including Wilbur, who is snoring, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend. We’ll see you back here next week for more Romantic Times Rewind, where we look at the ads and features from May 1996, and believe me, y’all, it’s a good time, ‘cause there’s creepy dolls. Until then, in the words of my favorite retired podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening. You’re welcome for talking.

[end of music]