427. Mailboxes to Bonetown: Amanda and Sarah Talk Sex Ratings

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there, and thank you for inviting me into your eardrums. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. This is episode number 427 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books.  Today, Amanda and I are talking about Bone Town. This is a little Not Safe for Work, this one. We received an email from Megan, who wanted to know about the possibility of building a rating system for sex in romances. The short answer is, we don’t think it’s entirely feasible, given how subjective heat levels can be for different readers, but we had a lot to talk about. We also talk about Prime Day, my younger child’s bar mitzvah, which was last weekend, and the different levels of friendship.

But we would really like to know what you think. What would your sex rating system for romances look like? What elements would you want to highlight? Do you think this is doable? Email us. We love hearing from you. You can email us at sbjpodcast@gmail.com, or you can leave us a message at 1-201-371-3272 and leave us a message. We love hearing from you. And thank you to Megan for this week’s question!

Now, I know many of you are looking for podcasts to try in the Quarantimes as we all hang out. Maybe you’re back in the world! I am not, but I’m still listening to a lot of podcasts, and here is a suggestion for you to try!

Jeffe Kennedy: Good morning, everyone. This is Jeffe Kennedy, and I’m here with my First Cup of Coffee every morning on Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Fridays. I’m an award-winning author of fantasy and romantic fantasy, and I chat with you about what it’s like to be a career author. I honestly share my daily challenges and triumphs in getting my novels written. I give insights into the business side of being a writer and reflect on leading a fulfilling and creative life. Sit down and have a cup of coffee with me.

Sarah: If you would like to check out Jeffe Kennedy’s First Cup of Coffee, I will have links to where you can subscribe in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

This podcast is also brought to you by Ritual, a daily multivitamin that was obsessively researched for women. It is vegan-friendly, sugar-free, non-GMO, gluten-free, and allergen-free, and all of the sources for the nine nutrients inside are provided for you to read and research on your own. I really like that they are dedicated to researching and sourcing ingredients that have low environmental impact and are as vegan as possible, which is to say they’re all vegan. There’s no shades of vegan; it’s all vegan. I also really like that Ritual is easy, that a new bottle is delivered right when I finish the old one, and I really like the fact that I know exactly what’s in each capsule and why it’s there. Even the capsules are transparent so I can see inside them; it’s kind of cool. Daily changes can lead to big results, so start small today. Ritual is offering my listeners ten percent off your first three months! Try it out, satisfaction guaranteed. Go to ritual.com/SARAH to start your Ritual today. That’s ten percent off during your first three months at ritual.com/SARAH.

I have a compliment in this episode! I love doing this, and I hope I say this name right. If I don’t I’m very sorry, but this is for Varain or Varain R.:

One of your many superpowers is inspiration! You inspire people around you to be the better versions of themselves because you are one of the greatest, most kindest, excellent humans alive.

If you would like a compliment of your very own, have a look at the podcast Patreon at patreon.com/SmartBitches, and if you’d like to support the show in any amount, every pledge is deeply appreciated. The Patreon community helps me develop questions for upcoming guests and keeps the show going every week, and most importantly makes sure that every episode has a transcript. Thank you to the podcast Patreon community for being so fabulous. If you would like to join, patreon.com/SmartBitches!

I will have links to all the books we talk about and some of the recipes we talk about, because Amanda and I cannot talk to each other without at some point talking about food. And I will end the episode with a terrible joke, because that is how I roll, and this week’s joke comes from our weekly, or actually bi-, biweekly – all right, hear me out: biweekly is twice a week, right, not every other week? At least that’s how I’m using it here. Twice a week, Amanda and I stream on Twitch at twitch.tv/SmartTwitches, ‘cause I’m awesome. [Laughs] We stream twice a week; usually we’re playing Stardew Valley. We might start playing a really creepy paranormal game, but either way, this week’s joke comes from our Twitch stream community, who is an awesome group of people. You should hang out with us! I’ll put the Twitch info in the show notes.

But for now, let’s get started: me and Amanda talking about sex rating systems in romance.

[music]

Sarah: Happy Prime Day.

Amanda: Happy Prime Day! [Laughs]

Sarah: I’m always so underwhelmed by Prime Day? I’m sort of like, oh, oh, okay. Hmm.

Amanda: Yes, and it’s ugly. It’s butt-ugly, and you can’t really, like, navigate the space in the way that you want.

Sarah: And, and trying to find things is really strange?

Amanda: Yes. Come on, Amazon.

Sarah: Well, I think they kind of want you to get lost, but I’m, I’m always underwhelmed. I’m like, well, you know, that’s going to be on sale on Black Friday or whatever.

Amanda: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: That’ll be on sale again. There’s no sale that is so low in price that I absolutely must move on it?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Because there’s going to be Black Friday, and then there’s going to be Cyber Monday, and then there’s going to be, you know, Rando Tuesday, so it, it’s not the end of the world if I don’t jump on a Prime deal? But I also am completely amused by things like giant gallons of industrial lube!

Amanda: The things that they choose to put on sale sometimes truly boggle the mind.

Sarah: [Laughs] It’s so interesting, isn’t it?

Amanda: And it’s like, who’s deciding this? Like, the Amazon algorithm robots of, like –

Sarah: It’s weird, and then the aggregators who try to collect things, you’re kind of like, uhhh-kay? Like, one of the things that’s on sale which I find really amusing is a smart zone sprinkler controller to control your outdoor sprinkler system, which I don’t have.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Right? And then I always wonder, like, okay, so this Kindle is on sale; does that mean you’re going to release an upgrade before the holidays? It’s sort of like pre-pre-Black Friday.

Amanda: I was – so you mentioned that the Oasis was on sale –

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: – and so I looked. I was like –

[ringtone]

Amanda: – ‘cause I have the Kindle Paperwhite, and I –

Sarah: Please excuse my phone that I did not mute.

Amanda: That’s fine.

Sarah: I apologize.

Amanda: Kindle Paperwhite that I’ve had for a while, and it’s fine.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: Like, there’s nothing wrong with it. What if I upgraded to a nicer Kindle? And then I looked at the sale for the Oasis was, and it’s like, what, thirty percent off, and I was like, eh!

Sarah: Well, I’m going to put together a post of Prime Day deals to try to put up today or tomorrow and be like, here’s what I found; what did you find? What did you think?

Amanda: Yeah. Prime Day’s weird, isn’t it?

Sarah: It’s super weird. And, like, I’m really thinking already, like, what am I going to do about the holidays this year? We’re not going to see anybody –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – and I don’t know, I feel like sending people things is, like, I’m not sure if I’m going to do that, you know?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, my mother-in-law left – so this past weekend was my younger son’s bar mitzvah, which you watched.

Amanda: Yes, I did.

Sarah: Thank you for tuning in to the live show from my backyard. And –

Amanda: It was wonderful!

Sarah: Thank you! My mother-in-law brought chocolate-covered pretzels in one of her Tupperwares –

Amanda: Oh boy.

Sarah: – and I’m pretty sure this Tupperware is older than me, it’s very OG-style Tupperware, but she left it here. Usually she takes it with her; she, you know, you’ve got to take your Tupperware with you; you cannot let your Tupperware just go out in the wild. So we have it –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and one of the things that my son wanted for his bar mitzvah was recipes, so she sent, lots of people have sent us baking recipes, ‘cause he loves to bake, and I was like, oh, we could make something and then put it in the Tupperware and then send it to her, and I’m like, wait a minute, is that too much germs? Maybe not. Maybe yes? I don’t know.

Amanda: It’s hard to, like, know in terms of, like –

Sarah: Other people’s comfort levels? But thank you for joining us for the, the show, the, the, the grand show of our backyard from a, for the bar mitzvah.

Amanda: It was – well, I told you I had never attended one, and I’m honored to have received that Zoom link to watch.

Sarah: I’m pissed you didn’t get the actual invitation, speaking of –

Amanda: No!

Sarah: – things that don’t work. I sent it and the post office never delivered it, so I’ll send you –

Amanda: I –

Sarah: – another one so you get the cute recipe card.

Amanda: Yeah. I haven’t gotten anything.

Sarah: Ugh!

Amanda: But it was – and I’m sure – I don’t know. Maybe they’re, like, more serious when you actually go to the synagogue?

Sarah: Not ours; we’re very silly. [Laughs]

Amanda: But –

Sarah: But they can be very serious.

Amanda: – it was, like, really adorable just, like, in the backyard with the setup and everyone on – there was like fifty people on, fifty, like, separate cameras –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: – on Zoom.

Sarah: Oh yeah. There were a lot of people that showed up to watch, which I was really honored by, because it’s really, really difficult for me to be like, hey, I know you’ve been on Zoom all week for school; how about one more?

Amanda: I, I feel like people were willing to make an exception when it’s like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – here’s homework, you know.

Sarah: Yeah!

[Laughter]

Sarah: And because it was, it was a Jewish holiday – it was Shmini Atzeret, which is one of the four big holidays in a row, with Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Shmini Atzeret, and Simchat Torah, all in a row. I used to never work. When I worked for a Jewish nonprofit and we had off for the major holidays, I’d work like five, five total days when the holidays rolled around; it was great. But the holiday meant that because it was a holiday service, we had to do some extra stuff? I was amazed we got it done before noon.

Amanda: I mean, how long do they usually last?

Sarah: Normal Saturday services can be anywhere from two to three hours, depending on how many things you’re doing.

Amanda: Wow!

Sarah: Yeah, when I converted and I, you know, gave a little speech to thank people and whatever, I was like, so listen, when I was, you know, back when I was Christian, like twenty minutes ago –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – if we had a 10:30 service and there was a one o’clock kickoff for the local football team –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – that was a real fast service; people had to get home. Why are services so long? Can we make them shorter? And the rabbi was like, no. Nope.

Amanda: No, we cannot.

Sarah: Nope. And sometimes they go all day.

Amanda: You signed up for this.

Sarah: Sometimes they go all day long if you’re observing a certain holiday. Friday night is short; Saturday morning can be long, ‘cause there’s a lot going on. But we had a really good time, and the Torah is still in my closet. And because we can’t –

Amanda: When, when do you have to return it?

Sarah: Well, that’s the thing: we meet in a, our synagogue is really small, and we meet in a church, and the church is closed, and they’ve told all of the congregations that meet there – there’s us, and then there’s a Rwandan church and another church and another group – all of us have been told, don’t expect to get back into the building until Spring 2021 at the earliest?

Amanda: Wow.

Sarah: So then they had a mold problem, because no one’s using the space; it got really moist, so we had to move all of the prayer books and the Torahs out. So people have, like, boxes of our prayer books in their houses, and there were two Torahs. The one is being held at our cantor’s house, ‘cause he runs a lot of the service, but he had the second one, and when we contacted him to ask if we could have it he was like, please, take it. Please come get it right now; there’s too many Torahs in my house.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So now we have a Torah, it’s probably going to hang out with us, and we have friends that had to delay their b’nai mitzvot – b’not mitzvot; it’s triplet girls, so three on the same day – and they had to delay it again from this past May to December, now to April, and I was like, listen, if you end up virtually and you want to borrow a Torah, let me know, ‘cause I got one!

Amanda: Well, I know this is probably sacrilegious, and I wouldn’t suggest it, but I, it would be cute if you, like, took photos of the Torah doing various activities.

Sarah: [Laughs] After we signed off and were cleaning up the back-, the deck, we had put the Torah on a chair covered with a tablecloth with a little blanket rolled up in front of it to hold it in place, and then it had its own Zoom camera, so if anyone wanted to see the Torah, the, the Torah was, had its own Zoom channel. Well, we were cleaning up, and we came out, and my dog, the larger dog, had jumped up next to the Torah and was snuggled up next to him? Next to the Torah? So we put a, a, a yarmulke on the dog and took pictures, so we have pictures of Buzz in a yarmulke next to the Torah on the chair? I feel like he could take it on tour.

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: This is my favorite tree. Come for a walk with me. Here is the playground. Come on, Torah! Let’s go for a walk.

Amanda: Put it in, like, a little stroller, like a baby stroller?

Sarah: Yeah! And take it for a little walk. It’s, you know –

Amanda: It’s like –

Sarah: – a priceless, handmade parchment.

Amanda: – it’s swaddled like a baby, so.

Sarah: It isn’t, has, it has a little cover and  a little belt. Little belt inside, little cover.

All right, you ready to talk about sex?

Amanda: [Laughs] Quite –

[Crosstalk]

Amanda: – appliances, kitchen appliances.

Sarah: Appliances –

Together: Yeah.

Sarah: I don’t have any more, like, real food to talk about, aside from chocolate-covered pretzels.

Amanda: Now I made a, I made one of my favorite Smitten Kitchen recipes yesterday.

Sarah: Oh, the, the roasted red pepper soup?

Amanda: No! I made a, the crispy tortellini with peas and prosciutto.

Sarah: Ohhh! You’re being nice to yourself!

Amanda: I mean, it’s super, it’s, like, frozen tortellini, frozen peas – I used bacon instead of prosciutto ‘cause that’s what I had – and then it’s like lemon juice and either crème fraiche or, like, mascarpone, and that is it!

Sarah: Yum!

Amanda: I made a big, big vat of it.

Sarah: I did some menu planning and was looking ahead to the first week of November, and I was like, no matter what happens, we’re going to need comfort food, so macaroni and cheese and chicken tenders is literally on my dinner plan for that week.

Amanda: Ooh, I love a chicken tendy.

Sarah: Yeah, right?

Amanda: So good.

Sarah: Hell yeah!

Amanda: Is it a, are you a honey barb-, or are you a barbecue dipper or a honey mustard dipper?

Sarah: I make my own honey mustard.

Amanda: Of course you do! Get out of here!

Sarah: Well, I mean, it’s like crap from my fridge. Like, it’s a spicy brown mustard mixed with honey and a little bit of, little bit of hot pepper?

Amanda: Of course you make your own.

Sarah: But Adam makes his own barbecue sauce, so if you’d like I’ll send you some.

Amanda: Of course he does!

Sarah: Oh, it’s a, it’s a whole production. He loves making barbecue sauce, so –

Amanda: Yeah, send me some of that sweet homemade barbecue sauce!

Sarah: So I have to send you a package once it’s cold enough. I have to send you some carrot cake Oreos, some barbecue sauce – [laughs] –

Amanda: Which I enjoyed!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: I feel like something’s wrong with me that’s like –

Sarah: No, there’s nothing wrong with you. Everyone gets their own funky Oreo.

Amanda: I was like, am I having a stroke? Is this what it means that, like, I –

Sarah: No.

Amanda: – [laughs] – enjoy carrot cake Oreos?

Sarah: No, I don’t think so.

Amanda: They were really yummy!

Sarah: I’m glad you like them! I’ll send you more!

Amanda: [Laughs] It feels like we’re doing something illegal, because it, like, showed up in, like, a double-bagged Ziploc, just loose Oreos.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I didn’t want them to get broken, so I padded them inside an air bag.

Amanda: I’m just like, I don’t know how the post office works, but, like, imagine seeing that go through a scanner, like, what the fuck is this? Are these just loose Oreos in a bag?

Sarah: Somebody’s got the munchies. [Laughs]

Amanda: Hmm! Maybe they can’t go out and get Oreos themselves! They have, like, a –

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: – dealer who sends them.

Sarah: Hey, you know, sometimes you can’t get Oreos nearby; you’ve got to get them from far away.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So we have an email from Megan, and she, she, I don’t know if Megan knows that we are going to answer this on the podcast, but we’re –

Amanda: Surprise!

Sarah: – going to answer it on the podcast. Surprise! You want to read the, you want to read the email?

Amanda: Yes!

Sarah: Go for it.

Amanda: This is from Megan:

“I’ve been a fan/daily newsletter and blog reader for years –“

Thank you!

Sarah: Thank you!

Amanda: “- and generally go to you gals for any romance/book questions.”

Sarah: Thank you again!

Amanda: “I was recently reading a book with a wonderful sex scene that went in the BDSM direction, which is totally cool for people who like that. However that wasn’t really where my mood was and I was turned off.”

Sarah: Hmm.

Amanda: “Then my overactive brain was wondering if there was a rating system for sex in books (type, participants, location, acts, dirty talk, etc.).

“We could probably solve a lot of HABO with that alone. I figured if it exists, y’all would know about it. Thanks for reading!”

Sarah: [Laughs] Imagine all the HaBOs we could solve if we were, like, cross-referencing all of the memories, ‘cause everyone remembers the sex scenes!

Amanda: It’s – so, as someone who, like, gets, like, formats the HaBOs, there are certain times when I’m like, no one’s going to fucking remember this. Like, it’s two sentences long.

Sarah: Bam, first comment.

Amanda: Yeah! Oh, I know that –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: I’m like, what the – like, it amazes me. Or –

Sarah: Oh, I know.

Amanda: – I’ll be like, this is really interesting. This seems like a very noticeable scene that someone would obviously remember, and then it’s, like, six different books that have the very same, very specific, like, sex scene in it, and I’m like, okay.

Sarah: Oh, like sex on horseback, sex in a pond, sex in a carriage, sex on the horse and then in the carriage. Yeah.

Amanda: Yeah. And it’s like, okay, well, there’s a lot more there than I thought.

Sarah: And then you get, like, then you get some that are, like, multiple pieces of books. Like, okay, well, this book had the sex on the horseback, but this one had the sex in the pond in the winter, and this one had the one where she got pneumonia.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: But it’s not all the same book.

Amanda: There are, I feel like we have several unsolved HaBOs that I think are different books, but they all involve, like, the hero being nursed back to health, but with, like, the heroine’s breast milk involved? [Laughs]

Sarah: Of course.

Amanda: I feel like we have a bunch of those that haven’t been solved, and they’re –

Sarah: Regency antibiotics.

Amanda: – they’re either the same book or –

Sarah: [Laughs] Breast milk penicillin!

Amanda: – or just, like, different books with the same setup, which is entirely possible!

Sarah: Always possible.

So the short answer to Megan’s question, from my perspective, or at least my, my understanding of romance, which dates back, you know, a few, a few years –

Amanda: Just a bit.

Sarah: – I don’t think that a sex rating system would be feasible or possible, because so much of what is considered hot versus dirty versus spicy is so subjective.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: And there are so many different pieces of sexuality that are present in romance, the specifics that readers would want to know would vary based on what that reader was looking for. Like, this is such a subjective and complicated thing that I don’t know of a system that exists beyond, you know, one pepper, two pepper, three pepper, four pepper or whatever –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – or how hot is it –

Amanda: Pepper rating!

Sarah: – but even then, but even then, like, your two-pepper read could be my five-pepper read, right?

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: And then, like, once you get into the variations, like are we talking dildos or tentacles?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: How many peppers for the tentacles versus how many dildos for the breast milk penicillin? Like, how, how are we ranking what’s hot and what’s not? And that’s all so subjective based on your reader perspective.

A long time ago, I was trying to develop something that I casually called the Sage Indicator because a person named Sage had emailed me to ask about this, to warn readers about the presence of sexual assault and rape in a book, because there was a period of time – much less now, but still happens – where assault of a character is used as some form of pathos, and Sage had emailed me and said, this is incredibly traumatic for me to read about in any regard, and I’m having trouble finding reviews that say, hey, there be assault here –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – or hey, you’re clear to go. And I thought, you know, a red-yellow-green system would be pretty easy to implement and say, yes, there is some, yes, there’s some assault, yes, there’s assault on the page, or no, you’re clear; proceed to read. But even that became really complicated because I was never sure how to clearly delineate each section, and that was just for assault.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: And then I’m not saying that sex and assault are the same thing, but I’m just saying this one area was hard to do when you include all of the variations of sexuality. I don’t know if a rating system would be possible. That said, I think it would be interesting to really talk about what are the things that readers want to know about the sex in their books? Like –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – what would be the, the trope or tags for this topic? Like, how do you tag all of this?

Amanda: So, one, I’m, I want to use the pepper rating in my daily life now. Like, after Eric comes over and we do our business, I just want to hold up a sign that’s like, meh, three peppers.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Wait, is it three out of four or three out of five?

[More laughter]

Sarah: Also, “we do our business.” [Laughs]

Amanda: We do our business.

Sarah: We have gone to sexy town.

Amanda: We go to the ba-, we go to the bathroom together. We do our business and –

Sarah: You went to, you went to the Bone Town.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I’m glad you get to visit Bone Town during the Quarantimes; it’s very important.

Amanda: Yeah! I mean, some people are okay with it; it’s, I mean, totally cool if you have no interest in physical intimacy, but it’s also a nice plus if you do enjoy that sort of thing, having a –

Sarah: Yeah!

Amanda: – you know, a –

Sarah: Casual interlude.

Amanda: – D on tap, I suppose?

Sarah: Yeah, right?

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Or whatever you prefer to have on tap. Again, this is a very complicated and multi-piece topic!

Amanda: Yes! So I agree with – having a rating system kind of introduces, I don’t want to say like a critique, but like a judgment on the –

Sarah: It is a subjective analysis, yeah!

Amanda: Yeah, and I feel like for that sort of thing it wouldn’t really work, ‘cause as you already mentioned, your two-pepper could be my half-pepper or one-pepper. [Laughs]

Sarah: My two-pepper would be like your negative peppers. Like – and it’s funny. Like, I, I, I’ve been thinking about this since we decided to talk about this, and I’ve been thinking about this in terms of sort of the larger history of the romance genre? Because so many of the original digital publishers were publishing –

[Bang]

Sarah: – erotic romance. Please excuse the banging if you can hear it. My deck is being demolished. Banging during the banging podcast: you are all welcome!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, my chair just shimmied and I was like, what the hell? Oh yeah, dem-, demolition in the back. So back, back, back in the day, a lot of the original digital-first publishers were mostly starting by publishing extremely erotic romance. Like, the early Jade Black titles from Ellora’s Cave were –

Amanda: Oh, that’s a name I haven’t heard in a while.

Sarah: Right? They were alien-fucking books! They were all aliens having lots of sex. There was one where in order to become pregnant, the hero had to have sex with the heroine while two other guys were sucking on her breasts, and that was what would induce pregnancy.

Amanda: Sure!

Sarah: Yeah, right? I mean, okay, whatever. And there was lots of sharing and lots of, you know, lots of multi-partner banging and orgies, and it was like alien sex orgy. That was because none of that was being published in, in places where readers could get to it. It was harder to find seriously erotic romance. Then you had publishers starting their own erotic romance lines, like Aphrodisia and things like that, and even then, there would be – [laughs] – there would be readers who’d be like, well, this isn’t sexy enough. I’ve read, read much –

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: – more dirty books from this place; this is too tame for me. Whereas other people were like, oh my God, you are leading me into terror and sin!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: What I find really funny is the number of authors I’ve spoken to who have received letters from readers who say, there’s still not enough sex in your books; they used to be hotter; what happened to the sex? Especially as authors move into writing women’s fiction? There’s less sex, so readers are like, where, where’s the banging? Where’s the beef?

Amanda: That’s what I’m here for!

Sarah: I’m here for the beef; where is the beef? Where’s the beef?! Where’s, where’s the banging? So the idea of sex being present in romance is something that has been, like, changing for literal decades? Trying to codify all that would be so difficult.

Amanda: And I feel like we’re still trying to figure out the language, because I know there are inherent, like, connotations with calling something, like, clean or, like dirty?

Sarah: Oh, clean or dirty is a really – I, I get it!

Amanda: ‘Cause, like, how do you –

Sarah: And the absence of language creates language that doesn’t, doesn’t work for everyone.

Amanda: Yeah! Like, how do you agree on a universal rating when, like, the language is still being debated on, like, what do we call a book that, you know, doesn’t have any graphic depictions of sex acts or –

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: – like, you know, I feel like closed-door is what we collectively agreed upon. [Laughs] Not having, like, you know, had a meeting about it, but –

Sarah: [Laughs] Even then – you know, I think Megan is asking a really good question though, in terms of how do we talk about the elements of sex, because I’ve, I’ve said before to you and to other people, just the term contemporary romance means many different things. I could be talking about Debbie Macomber, and you could be talking about Jaci Burton or something completely different, and we’re both still under the contemporary romance umbrella. How much, how much you determine this, the pieces of sex in a book varies so much per reader, and I’m, I’m really curious about, about Megan’s list: type, participants, location, acts, dirty talk, etc. This reminds me of, like, the archetype and trope selections we have in our database?

Amanda: [Laughs] We do have some that are coded for, like, more erotic books. Like, we have a, a ménage tag?

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: We have a BDSM tag.

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: We have a “dark” tag.

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: But I think that might be it.

Sarah: I wonder if what really needs to be codified – not that I can do this; I do not have this power –

Amanda: You’re not volunteering!

Sarah: – and I’m not volunteering, and I don’t have control over things – this is, this is not a When I Am the Empress scenario – what led to Megan asking this question was, I was reading a book with a wonderful sex scene that went into a BDSM direction, which is totally cool, but not where my mood was –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – and I wonder if it is possible or even feasible – and I doubt it is – to just say, yes, this is BDSM/no, this is not BDSM.

Amanda: Yeah. But I –

Sarah: Because I don’t particularly enjoy BDSM scenes, except in the hands of very specific writers.

Amanda: But I feel like even that –

Sarah: Yeah?

Amanda: – differs in terms –

Sarah: Yeah!

Amanda: – of, like, what elements, what BDSM elements are present.

Sarah: Right. We talking about some mild tying up, or are we talking about a full scene with consent and aftercare?

Amanda: Yeah! So I feel like even just saying that sometimes is not enough.

Sarah: That’s true!

Amanda: And the – my brain just left my body.

[Laughter]

Sarah: You know what I would like to do?

Amanda: You heard that in real time. Just, like, I’m trying –

Sarah: Right. Whoosh!

Amanda: – and my brain left my body.

Sarah: I would like, though, to just start on the, on, just on the fly, naming all of the places characters have had sex in romances –

Amanda: Oh man.

Sarah: – that I have read. Like, house, barn, castle, horse, lake –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – carriage, car, motorcycle –

Amanda: Desk.

Sarah: Desk, oh, a lot of desk. Copy machine?

Amanda: Yeah. Did you say plane already?

Sarah: Hedge maze.

Amanda: There’s more. I feel like it’s a –

Sarah: Obviously hotel, inn, carriage house.

Amanda: I feel like it’s the Rule 34. Like, if you can –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – think of it, it exists. [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, what is the strangest location that characters have had sex? And I’m not, I’m not saying that, like, the farther afield we go – literally – the, the, that this is a problem or this is more or less hot. I’m just thinking –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – wow! There are so many surfaces that have been explored in the realm of romance sex!

Amanda: And also, these details rely on reading the book as well. So, you know, like, for example, when I do Books on Sale or when I’m just putting books into the repository for reviews that I haven’t written but other –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – reviewers have written, I don’t know what’s in the book, ‘cause I haven’t read it, so marking what’s inside of it in terms of, like, tropes or archetypes or whatever, I’m relying on secondhand knowledge.

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: So I feel like the only way to do that is to kind of like crowdsource it in a way? [Laughs]

Sarah: Right. And then you get into the idea of – [sighs] – the, the challenge of two people with very different perspectives on what is erotic.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: Right, like, what, your line of erotic is in a different place than my line of erotic. I remember talking about this –

Amanda: It might be on a different continent.

Sarah: Yeah, you and I are different planets as far as erotic.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: And then, like, I remember talking about this years ago, when publishers started publishing more sexy, erotic romances, that there were some books that were just really, really sexy contemporaries with a lot of sex in them, but they weren’t erotic romance, because the erotic romance, the way erotic romance has been explained to me and the way that I comprehend of it objectively is that if you take the erotic content out, the book falls apart.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: Like, the, the plot and the tension and the, and the conflict hinge – forgive the pun – on the idea that there is erotic content. It is, it’s essential for the book, and if you take it out, then, and the book still stands, then it’s not technically an erotic romance. Now, I don’t know how much that definition holds over the years, but that seems to work for me, because there are many ro-, romances where I’ve been like, well, that was super sexy, and there was a lot of Bone Town visitation. They have dual citizenship in Bone Town now, but –

Amanda: Their passport is fully stamped.

Sarah: That is right, but they are not necessarily in an erotic romance, because there’s other stuff going on.

Amanda: I think the easiest way to do this is to just kind of like list – not necessarily, like, we don’t have to do like a laundry list of all of the sex acts that occur in a book – but just kind of like summing them up, if that makes any sort of sense? Like, if this were to be made, that is –

Sarah: Oof.

Amanda: – I think, the, the way it should go is, like, no, like, rating system: just kind of listing what is there.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: Like, the –

Sarah: But even then, that’s not necessarily an indicator of – ‘cause there’s sex, and then there’s intimacy.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: And those are two totally different mechanical compounds in a, in a book. I sound like I’m, I sound like the world’s worst scientist. Please excuse me.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: But it, it’s such an interesting question, because one of the things that I do all the time when I talk to readers over email or when I’m fielding recommendations is try to get a sense of what someone else’s lines are so I can recommend a book within those lines. So if someone comes to me and, and, and names a bunch of books that don’t have a lot of sex on the page, then I’m not immediately going to think, okay, well, let me introduce you to these authors –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – who wrote many pages, many, many pages of sex. It’s sort of like develop- – you know what, it’s sort of like developing a rubric that applies to everyone, and I don’t think such a thing is possible, because my level –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – for an A book is different from your level for an A book, and a book that I would recommend is such a conditional concept because I need to know to whom I’m recommending it and why I think they would like it. It’s not like, this book has universal appeal! I don’t think it’s possible to say, this book has universal sex!

Amanda: Yeah, I think that’s the –

Sarah: That’s the problem!

Amanda: – that’s the rub. [Laughs]

Sarah: Boom-shhhh! [Laughs]

Amanda: I think that is the rub for this, is, like, there’s no universal sex rating, because it’s just, it’s too subjective.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. What are the basic things that a reader would want to know?

Amanda: Well, obviously, so Goodreads, as many problems as it has, let’s you search reviews. So if you, like, scroll down to where the reviews are for a particular book, there is a little search field, and you can put, like, a keyword that you want to search for. So if you want to know what kind of, like, trigger warnings or content warnings might be there, sometimes I usually search, like, content warning or trigger warning or warning to see what reviews have said, but then again, like, I’m also relying on secondhand information, kind of like crowdsourced, and just, you know, hopefully everyone’s being open and honest about, like, what is inside the book.

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: I feel like that’s important. I mean, you’ve mentioned, what is it, the Sage scale?

Sarah: My, yeah, the Sage Indicator, which I –

Amanda: Sage Indicator.

Sarah: – was not able to develop successfully.

Amanda: I think that is always important, whether sex acts in the book are consensual or nonconsensual or dubious consent or, like –

Sarah: Even consent depends on the reader’s perspective too. Oof!

Amanda: Yeah! And so I think, for me, that is the most important, rather than –

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: – like, talking about, like, is there anal sex in this book? Do they use, like, toys as a – is there a threesome? Like –

Sarah: Tentacles? Yes/no?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Did you have sex in the mailbox?

Amanda: In the mailbox?

Sarah: I’m just thinking of locations with some sort of horizontal surface.

Amanda: Are we talking, like, one of those big blue, like, post office mailboxes? ‘Cause they’re like, you can, could, like, contortion your body?

Sarah: Conceivably you could – yeah – conceivably you could – I mean, it’d be a hell of a backbend, but yeah, I guess.

Amanda: It’s, it wouldn’t be very comfortable.

Sarah: No.

Amanda: I mean, that’s how I feel about it.

Sarah: Mailbox sex, that’s, yeah.

Amanda: Like, shower sex is, like, the bane of my existence.

Sarah: I don’t understand. Tile is cold; it’s, it’s slippery.

Amanda: Water is not a good lubricant, first of all. It’s terrible. And you have to, it’s like, I feel like I’m doing the, what is it, Pythagorean theor-, theory? And it’s like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – if the side, like A squared plus B squared equals C squared, like, what is the angle that I have to be at so I, like, I don’t have to, like –

Sarah: Drown.

Amanda: – spread anything or, like, crack my head open.

Sarah: [Laughs] No –

Amanda: ‘Cause if, like, you’re too tall or too short, that’s just like –

Sarah: Oh, forget it.

Amanda: – a recipe for, like, lower. Nonononono! Too low; high, higher! [Sighs] Okay, put your foot here and your hand here.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: And then, like, you’re just frustrated, and then the hot water’s gone, and you’re like, fuck this. That’s enough.

Sarah: Shower sex: yes/no.

Amanda: Definitely not.

Sarah: [Laughs] I think you’re right, though. One thing that is always important to me when I’m talking to a reader about a book is making sure that the book will be safe for them?

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: And that, that’s crucial. And I can see why tracking and, and engaging with certain elements of sexuality in romance mean that a reader needs to be much more attentive and potentially forewarned about what’s in there. Totally get that. Understand. Want, and I want everyone to feel safe and, and happy when they’re reading romance. But like you just said, it’s all so subjective. Shower sex yes? Shower sex no!

Amanda: [Laughs] Yeah, I mean, like, reading it, I’m just going to be like, this isn’t plausible. This doesn’t happen!

Sarah: [Laughs] What kind of trope tags or fic tags could we develop for erotic romance?

Amanda: I don’t know! I mean – so back to what I was saying, it’s like, we could introduce the tags, but having them be used is different, because, like, you know, we can’t make a judgment call on, like, what’s inside the book; that’s up to the reviewers.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: So that’s, the, like, hard part is like, I can only, if we, like, introduce, like, a separate section of tags for, like, sexual content, like if it’s closed-door; if, you know, whatever; that’s not something you could glean from reading a, you know, the book description. Like, you could read the book description and figure out, like, okay, the hero is an athlete, or this is a second-chance romance, or it’s set in a small town, or, like –

Sarah: They’re definitely going to have sex on the mailbox.

Amanda: [Laughs] So, you know, you can’t, like – [laughs] – the descriptions of the books that, when you read the back aren’t going to be like, and she takes it in the butt on page –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – 102, and it’s like –

Sarah: Surprise! There’s anal.

Amanda: Yeah! Like, oh my God, speaking, speaking of anal –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Speaking of!

Amanda: I, I forgot how it came up, but Eric and I were, like, driving somewhere, and I – [laughs] – I explained the “I’m in your ass, saving your life.”

Sarah: Oh dear God, that’s vintage!

Amanda: I know! Trying to explain it to – ‘cause he’s like, is there anal sex in romance novels? It’s like, what the – yes! What are you talking about?! Like –

Sarah: Once upon a time, long, long ago –

Amanda: So then I had –

Sarah: – there was an editor who said, on a panel, yes, in romance, anal is the new oral.

Amanda: But now it’s, like, passé. Like – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yeah, now it’s, what – aliens, tentacles?

Amanda: Yeah, like, if you can dream it, you can do it. Like, it’s in there. Like –

Sarah: Like when I was interviewing Carly – damn it, Carly Stone? Her name just flew out of my head. In a past interview, she’s like, it’s not like I’m going to invent a new sex.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: [Laughs] So anyway, what did Eric think of in her ass, saving her life?

Amanda: He was like, are you serious? I was like, yeah! I was like –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: – it’s, it’s on the internet! Like, he thought I was, like, joking with him! [Laughs]

Sarah: Did you tell him the summary of that book? ‘Cause that book is a, is, is, is a ride.

Amanda: It is a ride! Oh boy. I read it, too. I –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – I read that series.

Sarah: Ugghhh. Yeah, good times.

Amanda: That’s what the Cats song “Memory” is about.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: [Sings] Memories –

Sarah: And if you think about how the romance genre has changed the way it engaged with sexuality over the past few decades, it’s really interesting!

Amanda: Yes! I mean –

Sarah: You know, like, in, in a lot of ways, giving a blow job was absolutely scandalous, and now it’s like, yeah, whatevs. That’s, that’s foreplay on the way to many other things.

Amanda: And I know, like, I’ve grown up in a different time, but, like, giving a blow job is not scandalous. It is a chore.

Sarah: [Laughs] I was thinking about this yesterday, about how many books I’ve read where there’s this virginal, inexperienced heroine, and then she goes down on him and he’s thinking like, she’s a natural! Like, what, like it’s difficult?

Amanda: Yeah! You know –

Sarah: Like this a challenge?

Amanda: – you don’t need a Ph.D., and, like, to be honest –

Sarah: Pretty Huge Dick!

[Laughter]

Amanda: Oh boy!

Sarah: Thank you Skweezy Jibbs for that joke that’s never going to get old!

Amanda: [Laughs] But, like, I don’t know, sometimes I’m like, all right, you’ve got ten minutes before my jaw starts getting sore, so –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: And we have set a timer. It’s like, if you’re not done in ten minutes, I’m, like, I’m calling that one. I’ve got shit to do, so –

Sarah: [Laughs more]

Amanda: Those are like a, a one-pepper night is when it’s like –

[Laughter]

Amanda: – a half a pepper night.

I feel like we don’t have an answer for Megan. Like –

Sarah: No, we really don’t, which is, you know, here’s a whole podcast where we don’t arrive at a conclusion, but I think the, the short answer, if there is one, is it’s so subjective it’s impossible to create a rating system?

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: Maybe we could end up at a place where we have common language, but even then we still don’t have common language for romance. We’re still working out how to describe books with sex versus books without sex.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I, I think that it’s so subjective that it’s impossible to get some sort of cohesive system that allows for clear communication of what it is that we’re talking about.

Amanda: Yeah, and, I mean, I don’t want to, like, shirk our duties here, but –

[Laughter]

Amanda: Yeah, I said duty, so get over it!

Sarah: I was laughing at shirk, but that’s fine.

Amanda: [Laughs] So, like, this is where Goodreads comes in handy. Like, people will tag books as BDSM and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Amanda: – put it in the reviews, and I don’t know, I just find it, like, super helpful? I can understand, like, not wanting to be spoiled, but if, like, there’s a book that you pick up and you’re curious about the content, like, that’s a, that’s a good resource.

Sarah: Yep. And an area where I could see this type of discussion, or at least some sort of codified system being extremely helpful to readers, are those who are looking for stories within the romance genre that include aromantic, asexual characters.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Because that’s, that’s something that’s just beginning to show up in the genre that I really, really like, but even then, that becomes tricky because the language is slightly different.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: How do you describe these books in a way that makes it clear what the boundaries for the characters are so that the reader can engage with it in a way that’s within their own lines?

Amanda: Yes. And I don’t know if – [laughs] – we can necessarily, like, create a system.

Sarah: No, I don’t think we can. I don’t have – [deep breath] – I would be too, I would be too self-conscious and hesitant to inadvertently create a, a, a situation where a reader was upset or harmed or hurt or, or, like, just really, really turned off by something that I didn’t codify correctly, you know what I mean?

Amanda: Yeah, ‘cause, like, I feel as if, like, a mistake in this capacity –

Sarah: Oh, that could really hurt somebody! 

Amanda: Yeah! It could really upset someone. And, no, I don’t know if I, if we want to take on this – [laughs] – responsibility.

Sarah: I don’t think we can. But I think it’s a really interesting question, because just as we’re learning to break down books by trope, like you see people marketing their books with very specific trope tags, which –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – I, which is in part inspired by fanfiction tags, I’m wondering if we’ll start seeing books that are tagged and described with –

[Bang, bang]

Sarah: – more banging – with, with, with specifics about sex, like dirty-talk, mailbox-sex.

Amanda: Well, I also think that, when you were talking about, like, contemporaries and how, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – contemporaries can really vary in terms of the author, I think, like, just saying an author, for a lot of people, is codified in and of itself. Like –

Sarah: Oh yeah, some author names are definitely shorthand. Like, if I say Debbie Macomber, you know kind of what I’m talking about.

Amanda: Yeah, like, wraparound porch. But, like, if I say Tessa Bailey, then you know, like, there’s going to be some dirty talk for sure.

Sarah: Right, Roni Loren: steamy.

Amanda: Yes. You know, Robyn Carr, mmm –

Together: – not so much.

Sarah: No. And I also know that if I am looking at a book and I’m wondering if you would like it, I have to ask, is this spicy enough?

Amanda: [Laughs] Is this spicy enough for Amanda? I mean, so, funnily enough, my editor at BookPage, Savanna, so lovely, but she sends us kind of like the books up for grabs for the next month, and, like, we send her our, our first two choices or whatever, and there was one – [laughs] – that’s like – I’m going to find it, ‘cause it made me laugh. In parentheses, for the book, it’s called Brass Carriages and Glass Hearts by Nancy Campbell Allen. She says it’s a kisses-only, steampunk Cinderella, and I swear I am not making this up. So that was one of the books on choices, and so I sent her my first two choices to review, and I’m like, the Cinderella one sounds great, but I can’t get on board with kisses only!

Sarah: [Laughs] Okay! That’s good to know! You know what, kisses-only is probably, probably – well, then, but then that, that leads to the question, where precisely are these kisses landing?

Amanda: I mean, I feel like we can all use context clues.

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: Kisses only. It’s probably neck up kisses only. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. That’s a, that’s a good, that’s a good descriptor, though! That’s a really good place to start.

Amanda: Because, like –

Sarah: Kisses only?

Amanda: – there’s nothing wrong with, like, chaste or, like, closed-door romances; it’s totally fine. But, like, I get, like, unresolved sexual tension for the characters.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: Like, you know, it could be, like, Schrödinger’s cat in a way? There’s, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – once I close the book, maybe they are banging in, like, fictional land, but maybe they’re not, and I need to know!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: I need, I need proof of the pounding on the page.

Sarah: [Laughs more] So we have kisses-only, on-the-page-pounding –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – mailbox-sex. [Laughs]

Amanda: Can’t get on board with kisses-only. I’m sorry. [Sighs] But some people can! So –

Sarah: Yeah! And that’s cool!

Amanda: – if a Cinderella, steampunk, kisses-only book is for you –

Sarah: Yeah!

Amanda: – there you go!

Sarah: So what are you reading at the moment?

Amanda: I knew you were going to ask me this question, ‘cause you ask it every single time, and I was making –

Sarah: Yes, it is a pretty common question.

Amanda: I was, like, making my coffee; I’m like, what am I going to say when Sarah asks me that question? Because I’m not reading anything.

Sarah: You want to hear something really silly?

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: Camp was canceled this summer, so my younger child spent a lot of the summer inside, ‘cause it’s hot as hell here, reading a lot of fanfic. He prob- –

Amanda: Hell, yeah!

Sarah: – he probably read six hundred, seven hundred and fifty thousand words of fa- – he, we were talking about all the ships he’s liked, and he’d try a new show so he could get the context of the characters, and then he’d deep dive into the fan world of it. Like, he was having a great time. But he did not do his summer assigned reading, because the reading list that our county gives us is crap and half the books are out of print, and he wanted to read fanfic! And because I was not worried about his, his reading, I was like, I don’t care. You don’t have to, you don’t have to do it; I don’t care; whatever. I have, I have strong feelings about the, the continued schooling in the Quarantimes –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and people have, people just need to back off and calm down. But his, his English teacher this semester is a little on the intense side, very dedicated, super into making class work for everybody, and I appreciate so much of the effort, but the fact that he did not do his summer reading apparently has been a bit of a problem, because he doesn’t want to tell his teacher, yeah, I read like a million words of fanfic!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I read all summer! But if he says, I read on, all summer, the next question is, what did you read? And if he doesn’t –

Amanda: None of your business is what –

Sarah: Exactly! He doesn’t want to talk about it! [Laughs] So I get it! I get it! I don’t, I don’t have an answer is, is where we are in my house with one of my children, so I understand!

Amanda: Yeah, I don’t know! I mean, I was poking around my Kindle last night, and I’m like, I’m just going to take an edible and watch some YouTube videos. Like, I’m not going to bother with this anymore. [Laughs] ‘Cause, like, right now, nothing is grabbing me. And that –

Sarah: Hey, it happens.

Amanda: – that’s, like, all across the board. Like, I was telling you about, like, videogames yesterday, and I was like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – I want a new videogame to play, but, like, there’s nothing that I’m, like, in my library or even on my wishlist that I’m like, oh my God, this would be so great to play right now. So I just, I feel like I’m in that weird sort of mood where just, like, I’m like, discontent with everything? Or, like, you know, I just went grocery shopping and I’m hungry, but nothing that I bought is what I want. And I can’t –

Sarah: I –

Amanda: – I can’t –

Sarah: – get it.

Amanda: – tell you want, either. I just know that that’s not it.

Sarah: I get it! I totally get it! I have so many things to read, and sometimes I just cannot get into any of it.

Amanda: I know, and you’re like, in normal times I would devour this!

Sarah: And then sometimes I go through a period of time where I read like four things, and my brain is just like, whoa! What did you just do?

Amanda: I know! It’s a, it’s a rarity for you to read multiple things at one time.

Sarah: Oh yeah, that, that’s a sign that my brain is very divided. Like, I played Witcher 3 for a good two, two and a half hours? Because, like I, like I’ve said, when my brain is tired, making choices that determine the story and playing a game that has a good story satisfies the reading part of my brain when my brain is too tired to do the actual reading. I can make a recommendation, though.

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: I read Ovidia Yu’s The Frangipani Tree Mystery, which takes place in 1930s Singapore, and I really liked the heroine, because she is multilingual, she’s a polyglot, and she is straddling a lot of cultural lines and trying very hard to see through everyone’s bullshit, but she’s young and she’s been conditioned to have certain perspectives regarding people who are older than her, people who are white, people who are British, people who are Chinese or Malaysian, and she’s fighting against what she’s been taught, and then also recognizing that there are a lot more people that are full of shit than she realized?

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s a really, really interesting book; I really enjoyed it.

And I’m really, really liking the audiobook of The Art of Showing Up by Rachel Wilkerson Miller? This –

Amanda: I feel like you’ve been going through that one for a while now.

Sarah: Yes, I’m very poky with audiobooks, especially this one. I started it at the end of September, which is a long time for me, but what I do is I listen to a section and then I just sort of percolate on it.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, one of the things that the last chapter talked about that I’m still thinking about is that friendships have a lifespan, and some relationships are meant to wither and die out because you don’t have anything in common or context with those people anymore, and that’s okay.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: But with social media, relationships that otherwise would have withered don’t, and you maintain a very long sup-, superficial connection that can be more draining than it is beneficial. And that, that punched me right between the eyeballs.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I mean, I’ve already deleted my Facebook account almost two years ago, but the idea that there are relationships that naturally would wither, I know so many people for whom that is absolutely un-, intolerable, and no relationship can ever be let go of.

Amanda: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I’m experiencing that a lot during quarantine, because I do have a group of friends who we used to go out for dinner every month –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – from grad school, and some of them, we have, like, a big group chat, but in being separate and not being able to do that, there are definitely some of my friend group who are more invested in kind of like trying to maintain something, maintain a connection –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – or friendship as much as possible, and then there are some friends that are on my shit list. [Laughs] I’m like, okay, cool. So –

Sarah: I don’t have to see you? Bonus!

Amanda: I know! And some, some that have really surprised me in, in, like, reaching out and talking and stuff like that. So it’s been interesting to navigate in this space –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – as if, like, you know, we don’t have enough shit to navigate right now. But yeah, I think that’s one of those things where, I don’t know, I used to get upset that, like, I wouldn’t say I have, like, a best friend, you know, that I’ve known all my life and, and that sort of thing. But that’s okay.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. That’s one of the things that the book talked about is the different levels of friendship and how sometimes, in some situations, someone who would be a level four friend gets bumped up to a level eight or nine friend, because –

Amanda: Can you hear, can you hear Linus?

Sarah: I do! Hey, Bud.

Amanda: Here he is!

Sarah: That, like, a level four friend could be bumped up to a level nine friend, to use Rachel Wilkerson Miller’s language, just because of the, the context in which you’re experiencing something.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s, I really like this book, but it’s taking me a while to get through it, just because each chapter makes me think about something. Plus, I listen to it while I’m sewing, so I tend to think of it as something I’m doing while I’m solving a very complicated puzzle –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – which means that my brain wants to chew on it for a while.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Amanda for hanging out with me, and I am really curious what you think about Megan’s question. Is it possible, do you think, to develop a rating system for sex in romances, to track the different elements? We’re not sure that it’s possible, but I would really like to know what you think!

You can email us at sbjpodcast@gmail.com, you can comment in the show notes episode at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, or you can call and leave us a message at 1-201-371-3272. We love hearing from you, whether you want to tell us what you think of this idea, whether it’s possible, or you just want to tell us a bad joke, ‘cause we like those too.

And I will have links to the recipes that we talked about and of course the books that I mentioned in the show notes as well, so never fear. I’m also going to link to the original “In her ass, saving her life” review from way back, way, way back, and I will link to our unsolved HaBOs, should you wish to take a look at all of the strange places characters have had sex. There’s a lot of them, and they’re all very strange.

But of course I have a bad joke. This bad joke, as I mentioned in the intro, comes from our Twitch stream, and I will link to our Twitch schedule as well; fear not. SGlissando left us this joke in the, in the Twitch chat, and Amanda was kind enough to grab it for me so I wouldn’t forget. ‘Cause I don’t remember things. But I remember this joke, ‘cause it’s awesome! Okay, so you ready?

Why didn’t the green pepper practice archery?

Why didn’t the green pepper practice archery?

Because it didn’t have an arrow!

[Laughs] It didn’t habanero! I love it so much! Thank you, SGlissando! You’re brilliant for giving us this joke, and if you’re curious about our Twitch stream, twitch.tv/SmartTwitches. You can hang out and tell us bad jokes there too. [Laughs more] I love it!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend, and we will see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find great podcasts to listen to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[cheerful music]