259. Slayer of Words: An Interview with Beverly Jenkins, the 2017 RWA Nora Roberts Lifetime Achievement Award Recipient

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 259 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and this show is all about romance, the women who read and write it, and why all of those things are awesome! This week that is especially true, because at RWA I sat down with Beverly Jenkins, the recipient of the 2017 RWA Nora Roberts Lifetime Achievement Award.

First, I am going to share in the show notes a link to Ms. Bev’s speech. It is very, very powerful. Please take a moment to watch it. I’ve watched it six or seven times; I still get teary. It is an incredible speech.

So after you watch that, come on back, or do that once you’ve listened, because we are going to talk about her experience at the awards ceremony, her perspective on being a lifetime achievement award recipient, and this was recorded the day after the RITA awards ceremony, so we are both a little punchy while we talk about things. She gives advice, she looks at her career and her works in progress, and we discuss her film project to turn Deadly Sexy, one of her novels, into a movie. She also talks about perseverance when past and present history are very painful and the stories that she’s enjoying while she travels. She also talks about her romance reading catnip, which I am betting matches many of yours, and she gives advice to new and aspiring writers.

Now, I’ve already mentioned the podcast show notes for this particular episode, but there are two reasons that you should go check them out, either before or after or hit pause, whatever works for you. One, her speech: it really is that good. But at the end of the speech she also called herself the Slayer of Words, and while I was working on editing this podcast, I realized, you know, Slayer of Words would look pretty nifty on a T-shirt or, you know, a mouse pad, so I emailed her about it and she said, let’s do this! So, I have designed a small collection of items inspired by her speech. You can buy them! There’s a T-shirt, a mouse pad, I’ve got a folder, I’ve been asked to make a keychain, I’ll be doing that too, notebooks, whatever you want! You can email me; I’m, I take requests. But if you’re looking for Slayer of Words paraphernalia, we have got it. I will have links to all of these items in the show notes, and Ms. Bev has designated all profits from the sale of these items to go to Doctors Without Borders. I will be reporting the donation quarterly on Smart Bitches, and hopefully we’ll raise some money and create a very cool line of apparel so everyone can be a slayer of words. So this episode, above all, please go to the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

Now, I have compliments. Yay! This is my favorite part!

To Katie T.: Every morning you greet someone who is your biggest fan, and every time you do, you make that person’s day better and better.

And to Patricia B.: Even when you need a nap, your strength, determination, courage, and style never, ever quit.

And if you are thinking, huh? Or you’re thinking, I would like a handcrafted compliment, and I would like to help support this fine podcast that I am now listening to, these are excellent thoughts! Thank you for having them! You can take a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. We have a Patreon campaign to help make the show more and more gooder. In particular, this episode is a huge beneficiary of the Patreon campaign and the Patreon patrons. Patreon patrons? Patreoners. All you who supported the show through the Patreon campaign helped make this episode excellent, because the recording equipment is really humbling in its quality. I’m really impressed and very, very grateful that I have it. So if you would like to take a look, patreon.com/SmartBitches, that’s where all the information is, and one of the reward levels, should you make a monthly pledge, comes with genuine, heartfelt, handcrafted compliments from yours truly, which are really fun.

The music that you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. I will have information at the end of the podcast as to who this is.

We also talk about a lot of books, so I will have links to all of the books that we mention – there are a number of them – and I also will have links to the video of the RITA awards ceremony, starting at Ms. Bev’s speech, I will have links to the GoFundMe campaign to turn Deadly Sexy into a movie, and I will have links to the Slayer of Words collection which benefits Doctors Without Borders.

But now, without any further delay, let’s do a podcast!

[music]

Sarah: For the people who will be listening, would you give your full name and all of your titles? I just learned about all of them.

Beverly Jenkins: [Laughs] My name is Beverly Elaine Hunter Jenkins. Titles? I don’t have any titles!

Sarah: I heard the list.

Ms. Bev: Oh, you heard the list! [Laughs]

Sarah: You can’t get past me!

Ms. Bev: You heard the list.

Sarah: I heard the list.

Ms. Bev: [Laughs] Okay, what did I say? Here I stand, Beverly Elaine Hunter Jenkins –

Sarah: First of her name.

Ms. Bev: – first of her name, descendant of slaves, slayer of words, daughter of Dolores, 2017 recipient of the Nora Roberts Lifetime Achievement Award from RWA.

Sarah: Yes!

Ms. Bev: Yes, yay!

Sarah: And the whole room stands up and applauds!

[Cheering]

Ms. Bev: And the roof blows off the building! Yay!

Sarah: Everybody’s crying! Yeah!

Ms. Bev: The snotty crying, the ugly crying.

Sarah: It was like – oh, there was so much ugly cry.

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: I told the board –

Ms. Bev: Uh-huh?

Sarah: – I was like, next year? You don’t need to put desserts. We don’t need the, the blue breast-looking things and the little cups of chocolate caramel. We, give everyone a handkerchief.

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: You can even embroider it: RWA –

Ms. Bev: Right!

Sarah: – Ugly Cry.

Ms. Bev: Ugly Cry! Oh –

Sarah: Everyone is going to cry at the RITAs.

Ms. Bev: I know.

Sarah: You – hey, so I am sitting at your table –

Ms. Bev: Right.

Sarah: – and I am next to your youngest sister –

Ms. Bev: Right.

Sarah: – and of course I’m facing you, so she’s a little bit behind me.

Ms. Bev: Yes.

Sarah: You started talking, and all I heard was – [sniffs] – oh, Lord!

Ms. Bev: [Laughs]

Sarah: And then sobbing, and I’m a sympathy crier –

Ms. Bev: Yes.

Sarah: – so your speech was very watery and blurry, because I could not stop crying.

Ms. Bev: Oh, shoot. I was like, what’s wrong with her?

[Laughter]

Ms. Bev: My other sister, we call her the weeping willow.

Sarah: Oh, no!

Ms. Bev: [Laughs] I mean, just, this is going to be like a, a, a story at Thanksgiving, right, where we, we dog her about her just losing it. I was like, what’d you get, the Holy Ghost? What’s, what’s, what’s –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: – what is wrong with you? When I went backstage, she was like, ohhh! Ahhh! And I’m like, what the hell’s wrong with you? But she’s incredibly emotional. I think she’s the most emotional –

Sarah: Your family –

Ms. Bev: – of all of us, because, not necessarily because she’s the baby, but I think maybe because she is the baby, but she was just so proud of her big sister, and I had to love her for that, so I gave her a big hug and let her get my shoulder all wet and –

[Laughter]

Ms. Bev: – and then told her to go sit down and pull it together. [Laughs] Not really, but, yeah, she’s a sweetie.

Sarah: So do you remember last night?

Ms. Bev: Not a lot of it.

Sarah: Yep. It was, it was a very big moment.

Ms. Bev: Not a lot of it. I, it was sort of like, you know, one of those out-of-body experiences kind of things? I came back, I didn’t stay for the dancing or anything. I came back upstairs. I sat out there in the heat and smoked, like, a thousand cigarettes.

Sarah: It was a very long period of time between cigarettes, yes.

Ms. Bev: Yeah, it was. I was being really good.

Sarah: I want you to know, when Pam and I were trying to work out a time, I was like, I will follow her outside and just hand her a mic while she’s smoking; it’s fine.

Ms. Bev: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: We’ll just, I will make that happen. Do not care.

Ms. Bev: So, you know, and I came back up, and I’ve been, I’ve been, the sisters and them are, you know, they’re, they loved it. This is the first time they’ve ever seen anything like the RITAs and they were damn impressed.

Sarah: It’s impressive!

Ms. Bev: They were like, this is really cool! And I’m like, yeah.

Sarah: This is our Oscars!

Ms. Bev: Our Oscars! And so I came up, I’m on this high, I go outside, I get my cigarettes, I get my iPad so I can look and see what’s being tweeted, and I start crying because there are, like, a thousand tweets, and everybody’s talking about how wonderful the speech, and, and I wanted to watch it again just to see what I had said, but I was too emotionally attached, detached, unattached, attached.

Sarah: Sort of in that weird sort of free-floating emotional space?

Ms. Bev: Yeah, a free-loatingthing, so I haven’t looked at it yet. I’m going to probably look at it, I will probably look at it this evening, ‘cause I get to sleep in in the morning. But, yeah, and people were quoting like, she gave us her Game of Thrones name! And so I finally had to tell them, you know, y’all need to stop, ‘cause y’all making me cry up here in the Presidential Suite.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I’m going to have to go and cry in one of my six bathrooms, you guys!

Ms. Bev: I’m crying in my six bathrooms in my, you know, fourteen thousand million feet place. Yeah, it’s awesome, isn’t it? And those windows are on an electronic, those shades are on an electronic thing; they go up and down.

Sarah: Whoa!

Ms. Bev: I know; whoa is right. So I haven’t seen it yet, and then the, the girlfriends were blowing up my phone, and one of them was in Chicago with my best buddies. I get a text from her this morning. The last thing I told her last night, I said, did you see the speech? And so she texts me this morning: Saw the speech. Doing the ugly cry in my breakfast cereal.

[Laughter]

Ms. Bev: You are amazing. And I’m like, awww! Tears in her Cheerios. [Laughs] So, yeah, so it’s, it was a pretty awesome moment, I guess! You know, lots of people came up at the end, and one of the editors, you know, she’s, May Chen is so funny. You know, she was, like, cussing at me ‘cause she said I keep making her cry, and she used, you know, all of those dirty words that – I didn’t cuss on the stage either!

Sarah: I noticed that.

Ms. Bev: It was not a cussable moment.

Sarah: I, well, well, the, well, the introduction –

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: – made a small, a small –

Ms. Bev: Yeah, a small, small thing.

Sarah: – a little one. Just a little –

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: – just like saffron –

Ms. Bev: Right.

Sarah: – just a little taste.

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Ms. Bev: But it was not that kind of a moment.

Sarah: No, no.

Ms. Bev: No, no. Nah, especially when you’re talking about your mother.

Sarah: Oh, yeah, ‘cause you, you don’t want to, like, feel that rage from beyond.

Ms. Bev: Right, especially ‘cause she’s probably going to see it –

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: – sometime in the next week.

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: So.

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: But I noticed that after I got back. I said, there was no cursing involved.

Sarah: Good job!

Ms. Bev: Good job!

Sarah: Way to go, Past Bev!

Ms. Bev: Yes!

Sarah: Nice one!

Ms. Bev: Nice one. Yay! [Laughs] Wait till next time.

Sarah: Okay. I will, I will be ready. I will be ready. When you got the call that they had selected you and were going to give you the lifetime achievement award, do you remember, like, what you thought at that point?

Ms. Bev: I told ‘em I wasn’t coming.

[Laughter]

Sarah: So that’s why you’re in this palatial suite! They had to sweeten the deal? Very smart negotiating!

Ms. Bev: No, it was –

Sarah: Are you your own agent?

Ms. Bev: – it was funny. I was in Dallas doing a, a, a gig for the Bishop Arts Theatre there –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: – and I see this phone number on my phone after I got done, and I didn’t recognize the number, and it said it had gone to voicemail, and so, did the gig, went back to the hotel, sitting out smoking, do the voicemail, and it’s Leslie Kelly from RWA! And I’m like –

Sarah: Uh-oh.

Ms. Bev: – wonder what she wants?

Sarah: What did I do?

Ms. Bev: Yeah, what have I done now? You know. So I called her, and she said, well, you know, Bev, you know, we’re giving you the lifetime achievement award, blah, blah, and I was like, oh, my God! I said, well, I hadn’t planned on coming! I said, because Orlando’s too hot.

[Laughter]

Ms. Bev: And I said, well, not, I said, not because I have something else to do that weekend, but because it’s too hot. I said, but I guess I’ve got to come now, huh?

Sarah: Yes.

Ms. Bev: And she started laughing, so –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: – so she, I’m, I’m sure she was like, what is wrong with this woman? But, yeah, it was – and I cried after I hung up, you know, because it’s such an honor to be recognized for doing something that you love –

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: – and that you’ve been doing something that you love for, like, a thousand years –

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: – since the Earth cooled?

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: You know, so very, very honored that the board would honor me. So I came! And I came here!

Sarah: I think you made the right decision.

Ms. Bev: I think I made the right decision too.

Sarah: I mean, it is really hot outside –

Ms. Bev: It is fucking hot outside.

Sarah: – but –

Ms. Bev: Very hot.

Sarah: – I still think you made the right call.

Ms. Bev: I think so too, and then for someone who wasn’t coming and who had nothing on her schedule –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: – everybody suddenly went – [gasps] – Ms. Bev’s here, so let’s have her do this and this and this and this and this and this and this –

Sarah: Yeah.

Ms. Bev: – and run her like this and do this and do this and – so –

Sarah: Your social calendar gets very full.

Ms. Bev: Oh, yeah. But, you know, I, I thought about it this morning as I struggled awake at 5:30, that it’s a small price to pay for what I get in return.

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: So, tomorrow I get to sleep in. I mean, you know me, you know I don’t get up before ten o’clock.

Sarah: I know. I’m aware.

Ms. Bev: I’m, I’m up till four or five in the morning.

Sarah: I know!

Ms. Bev: So when I’ve been getting up at eight, I’ve been getting up at six o’clock every morning –

Sarah: That’s –

Ms. Bev: – since I’ve been here.

Sarah: – that’s, like, inhumane hours.

Ms. Bev: It’s very inhumane to a woman who keeps vampire hours.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: So, yeah, but I’ve been getting up, so tomorrow, hopefully, I get to sleep in.

Sarah: Woohoo!

Ms. Bev: I get to have some coffee and not have to run around and get dressed and put on clothes. Well, I have to put on clothes ‘cause I’m not at home.

Sarah: I know. You’ve got to wear pants at RWA at the very least? It’s like a super bummer.

Ms. Bev: I keep telling you, we need a pajama day at RWA.

Sarah: Oh, I would so be there for that.

Ms. Bev: Oh, man, if we could come to, come have a day – or maybe a conference! No, they would probably just put us out of the hotel if we came as we worked, dressed as we worked.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: You know, pants or not.

Sarah: That would be, that would be amazing.

Ms. Bev: That would be, you know. We’d just have to make sure our pajamas were clean.

Sarah: So, of the things that you found while you were here –

Ms. Bev: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Are there any that you really, really enjoyed or found particularly –

Ms. Bev: I really enjoyed doing the pro retreat yesterday?

Sarah: What’d you do?

Ms. Bev: Just sat at a table and talked about doing research and, and listening to their questions and letting them pick my brain. It’s still an active brain, so –

Sarah: Just ‘cause you’ve lifetime achieved things –

Ms. Bev: Yeah, well, sometimes you –

Sarah: – doesn’t mean that you’re going to stop.

Ms. Bev: – sometimes you do lifetime stuff and you ain’t learned nothing, so, but –

Sarah: This is true.

Ms. Bev: – I hope I’ve learned a little bit. But – letting them pick my brain and hoping that it helped their writing journey in some way?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: I mean, that’s, for me, that’s the biggest thing is to be able to impact people in a way that will help them on their journey. You know, maybe it’s a question; maybe it’s a, a hug; maybe it’s, you know, out smoking with the first-timers and they’re all shiny and new and, and, and, and they’ve got questions and, you know, you talk to them and, you know, give them that pat on the back or tell ‘em, no, that pitch is not good. You might want to start with that sentence instead of the one that you’re going with.

Sarah: ‘Cause once you’ve been on the path, you can look back and see it clearer than someone who hasn’t walked –

Ms. Bev: Yeah, well, sometimes you can.

Sarah: Sometimes.

Ms. Bev: Yeah, sometimes you can. I mean, each, each of us are, even though we’re on the same path writing, we all have different paths.

Sarah: Yes. That is very true.

Ms. Bev: So what may have worked for me or, or somebody else may not work for this newbie that’s coming –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: – but at least you can tell ‘em, well, this was a pitfall –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: – that was a hole –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: – that was a piece of broken sidewalk.

Sarah: You have to jump that problem, yep.

Ms. Bev: This was sunny.

Sarah: [Laughs] That part was quite pleasant!

Ms. Bev: This, this was a great fountain, you know, on a hot day. And, and, and, like I always say, you know, don’t compare yourself to somebody else.

Sarah: No.

Ms. Bev: You know, just because – how did it go? What did I tweet that, a couple weeks ago?

Sarah: Comparison is the thief of joy?

Ms. Bev: Yeah, that, that – no, that wasn’t me; that was somebody else.

Sarah: That was Roosevelt.

Ms. Bev: Oh, okay. Well, I knew that wasn’t me. [Laughs] No, I told ‘em something about – it’ll come to me. Oh, don’t compare someone else’s journey – no, don’t let someone else’s success make you feel less –

Sarah: Yes.

Ms. Bev: – because they’re on their path, and you’re on yours.

Sarah: Yes, I saw that tweet. That was very wise.

Ms. Bev: Yeah, so. It took me a minute to remember that ‘cause I’m old. But, yeah, trying to help!

Sarah: What kind is it – do you remember any of the questions that you got from people? That you weren’t expecting?

Ms. Bev: Research questions, how do you keep people’s eyes from glazing over when you’re doing research? Are there shortcuts? No.

Sarah: No, there are no shortcuts to research, unfortunately.

Ms. Bev: You’ve got to do the work. You’ve got to do the work. A woman who wanted to know if she could use Wikipedia, and I’m like, no.

Sarah: That would be a bad idea.

Ms. Bev: That would be a bad idea. [Laughs] One woman who said that, you know, she’s not real comfortable with the Internet and that she continued to buy hardcover books, and I told her what, when I do my research and I need a book, it’s hardcover. I don’t put it on my Kindle, ‘cause I want to go back and, you know, be able to go back and forth in pages. I may want to, you know, add a note in a, in a margin. I may want to highlight something, and it’s a lot easier to do with book in hand than it is electronically, so. So with the, so they had, it was a roundtable kind of a thing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: – so I spent, I think it was thirty minutes with one group, and then they all got up, and then another group came in and sat down, and they did research and history questions too, so I had two sessions with them.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: And then I left there, and then I don’t remember where I went next. I’d have to look at my schedule, ‘cause I have been running like a crazy woman since –

Together: – Wednesday –

Ms. Bev: – morning. Well, since Tuesday, when I got here and I had dinner with my editor and the president of Avon and –

Sarah: As you do.

Ms. Bev: – head of marketing.

Sarah: As you do.

Ms. Bev: As you do.

Sarah: As you do.

Ms. Bev: And they were just congratulating me on, on, on being nominated, so.

Sarah: Way to go.

Ms. Bev: I thought so. That was very nice, and they paid for dinner, so it was also very cool!

Sarah: Hey, that’s the best kind of meal. So, do you ever find yourself comparing your work to other people or comparing yourself to other journeys, or have, or is the –

Ms. Bev: No.

Sarah: – is part of lifetime achievement realizing that’s a waste of energy and space?

Ms. Bev: Well, even if, if it wasn’t a lifetime achievement, I mean it, I don’t think I’ve ever compared myself – or if I did, it only lasted a minute, and then I told myself, you know, that didn’t make any sense.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: You know, why are you trying to compare yourself to whoever? ‘Cause it serves no purpose!

Sarah: It does not. It does not.

Ms. Bev: All it does is make you crazy, and you can’t have somebody else’s gifts!

Sarah: Nope.

Ms. Bev: You can only have what’s given to you or what you earn, and they’ve been given theirs, and they’ve earned theirs, and it serves nothing.

Sarah: Nope.

Ms. Bev: So.

Sarah: So, you have a GoFundMe campaign to turn Deadly Sexy and your sister’s legs into –

Ms. Bev: [Laughs] Those are not her legs, right.

Sarah: I know, but I would, I just love that she says that! [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: I know, it’s a lovely, it’s a lovely story. Go ahead!

Sarah: To turn that into a film.

Ms. Bev: Right.

Sarah: How did that come about?

Ms. Bev: Well, we have been wanting Beverly Jenkins movies forever, and places like Hallmark and Lifetime don’t seem very interested in doing stories based on people of color?

Sarah: Wha-at?

Ms. Bev: [Gasps] Scandalous!

Sarah: I have noticed that this is certainly true!

Ms. Bev: It’s very true. Especially during Christmas time, when everybody’s doing their Christmas stories. It’s like, I guess Black people don’t have Christmas. Hispanic people don’t have Christmas. Puerto Rican people don’t have Christmas. So, Iris has done, she has a production company called Siri Austin Entertainment –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: – and she has done two of her films –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: – and I saw the second film, must have been last year, at an event in Charlotte that we did.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: And I, I really liked it, and she, you know, has always said, you know, she would love to do, do my movies, so – do one of my books – so we talked about doing Deadly Sexy, and so we, we went forward with it, got the contract, got the lawyers involved and all of that, but we’ve got to raise some money, because we’re, you know, neither one of us are Hollywood moguls, so we’ve been trying to raise money to get started filming. We’re determined to make this, regardless. I’m a bit disappointed with, I’ve got four thousand, almost five thousand people on my Facebook page; I’ve got another eight thousand on another page; I’ve got another five thousand on another page; and we’ve only had, like, maybe three hundred people step up. So. But that’s okay, because we’re going to make this movie anyway.

Sarah: Are you going to adapt the book into a script, into a screenplay?

Ms. Bev: Script, the script’s done.

Sarah: Oh, my goodness!

Ms. Bev: Screenplay’s done. It was done before we even started the campaign.

Sarah: No kidding!

Ms. Bev: Iris did the screenplay, and it is fabulous!

Sarah: Really!

Ms. Bev: Yeah, she stuck to the book!

Sarah: That’s unexpected!

Ms. Bev: Yeah, stuck to the book, ‘cause it’s, you know, it’s full of action, and it’s car chases and guns and love and cherries and all of that! She even sent some people up here to get some Traverse City cherries out of Michigan. So she’s determined. I love her spirit; I love her determination. I love her spunk.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: And she’s determined to make it, and I’m determined to make it with her, so she has – you know, we’ve got hundreds of people who want to be cast in this. We’ve got people sending in headshots, and she hasn’t even put out a public casting call yet.

Sarah: Wow.

Ms. Bev: So lots of people are interested. Got lots of support from, you know, out of the, the, the support that we did get, lots of support from the people on my page, and lots of support from the writers of RWA, which is kind of cool.

Sarah: That is very cool.

Ms. Bev: So green-lighting for us, instead of waiting for Hollywood to green-light us, and we’ll see what happens going forward. I’m very positive. We’re having a telethon today. She’s trying to raise this last money, you know, in this last week, which we, we wanted to do it in thirty days, thinking we would do it in thirty days, but you know, we plan and God laughs, so you go with the alternative, and you keep on rolling!

Sarah: So what are you working on right now?

Ms. Bev: Working on right now trying to get Regan’s book done. It’s been due for a while. I’ve been running around like a crazy woman. So –

Sarah: Well, you’re getting a lifetime achievement award!

Ms. Bev: Oh, I know, but you know, editors still need the book. That is what I do.

Sarah: Mm.

Ms. Bev: Main time, you know, mainly, is write. So I’m going to work on that, hopefully get that done in the next two weeks, ‘cause I’m going underground after I get home. Get that done.

Sarah: Going into the bat cave of writing?

Ms. Bev: Going into the bat cave. Going into the, into the writing cave. And then I have the rest of the month off, and I need to start Blessings #9, which is due early next year, and I got two more trips this yeah, one to New Orleans for Nola StoryCon with Jeaniene Frost and the paranormal ladies.

Sarah: I went last year, and it is terrific.

Ms. Bev: We had a good time.

Sarah: You –

Ms. Bev: We had a really good time.

Sarah: It’s so good.

Ms. Bev: Really had a good time.

Sarah: So good.

Ms. Bev: I don’t think they’re going to do it again after this year. I’m not sure, but –

Sarah: Running a con is hard!

Ms. Bev: It is very hard!

Sarah: There’s a tremendous amount of logistics.

Ms. Bev: Right, and if you don’t have a team –

Sarah: Nope. Full-time team –

Ms. Bev: – of people hired – yeah!

Sarah: – that, that does it.

Ms. Bev: It’s, it’s hard to do, especially if you’re supposed to be writing.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: So I’m doing that, and then –

Sarah: It’s why event planner is a job description.

Ms. Bev: Right.

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: And why they pay them good bucks.

Sarah: That’s right!

Ms. Bev: And then I’m going to Oakland, California, for UCAAB’s, which is United California African-American Bookclubs, their consortium. They have a Fall into Fiction event every September, and one year – they were in LA last year, and I got the first J. California Cooper literary award, so I’m going, so, this year it’s in Oakland. It goes between LA and Oakland, so this year it’s in Oakland, and I get to hand it over to whoever the recipient will be this year, and I have no idea who it is. They haven’t told me. So I do that, and then I come home, and I’d have some local stuff to do in October. Then I’m going to Novelists, Inc., for the first time –

Sarah: Ooh!

Ms. Bev: – which will be back down here in Florida in Tampa, and hang out with them for a while and bring another sister with me, and she can have the other half of my suite. She’s going to sit on the beach and relax and – she’s been the one that’s been taking my mom back and forth to the, to the doctor for her cancer treatments, cancer follow-up, chemo follow-up, so she needs a break, so.

Sarah: Are you speaking at Novelists, Inc.?

Ms. Bev: Not – I hope not.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I hope not!

Ms. Bev: Not that I know of. I think they’ve got –

Sarah: God, I hope they don’t make me talk.

Ms. Bev: I think they’ve got people who know a lot more about – you know, this, this is all, this is going to be learning for me –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: – ‘cause they’re all about the data and the digital and how to be a successful published author.

Sarah: I, I, I’m going to go out on a limb and think, you know, you’ve kind of got that down?

Ms. Bev: Yeah, I’ve kind of got it down, but there are always ways to improve.

Sarah: Always.

Ms. Bev: Productivity, how to, you know –

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: All that, so, I’m going as a newbie – this year I’ll be a virgin – and spend some time on the water and just chilling and then come home and get prepared for winter in Michigan.

Sarah: Winter –

Together: – is coming.

Sarah: Yeah. [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: We only get five more weeks of Game of Thrones.

Sarah: I had an interesting conversation with a writer who is also doing research into the history of Black Americans, particularly during the Civil War, and we were talking about how, not only is the history so painful, which you and I have talked about several times, but the present is also very painful.

Ms. Bev: Oh, yeah.

Sarah: The present is almost as painful, if not more so, than the past.

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: How do you keep writing hopefully? Does that bother you, the present and the past converging and just so much anguish?

Ms. Bev: You know, we’ve done this before.

Sarah: We have been here before; it’s true.

Ms. Bev: And we as a race have survived this before.

Sarah: This is also true! That’s the foundation of every Jewish holiday. They tried to kill us; we survived; let’s eat!

Ms. Bev: Let’s eat!

Sarah: Yep!

Ms. Bev: Let’s go forward. I think the people on whose shoulders we’re standing would not want us to go, oh, woe is me, I’m, I’m stuck, and I’m going to just pull my head under the covers, and I’m just not going to do anything but wail and weep.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: You get up every morning, and you do what is necessary, and you go forward. You bear the pain; we’ve borne, we’ve borne the pain for the last two hundred years. You bear the pain; you go forward; you try and, and help where you can where you live. Try and make a difference that way.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: Try and keep your kids strong; try and keep the people around you strong. You know, we’re worried about us; we’re worried about our kids; we’re worried about our sons –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: – who can’t seem to go to the story and come back alive, you know? It’s a real fear. So, like I said, we’ve done this before. We will survive. We will continue to create.

Sarah: Yep. And support other creators.

Ms. Bev: Yeah, and support other creators for sure. And hope, you know, the, the, the powers that be get their shit together.

Sarah: Oh, my Lord. I got not enough sleep last night, ‘cause I kept looking at Twitter going, I need to put this down, I need to put this down, I need to put this down, and I, I could not stay up any longer –

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: – and I had the worst dreams.

Ms. Bev: Oh.

Sarah: I had just awful, awful dreams. My brain was, like, fixated.

Ms. Bev: I have not watched cable news since last June?

Sarah: I haven’t watched the news since September 11th, 2001.

Ms. Bev: See? Yeah.

Sarah: I can’t.

Ms. Bev: That’s how you survive sometimes too.

Sarah: Yep. And –

Ms. Bev: By not letting it into your soul and into your spirit and into your heart.

Sarah: Yep. And it’s also, also knowing, knowing history and knowing facts and being able to say, I don’t believe you.

Ms. Bev: Right!

Sarah: I know you’re lying.

Ms. Bev: Right!

Sarah: I don’t have to listen to this.

Ms. Bev: I know! I don’t have to watch you.

Sarah: Nope. I do not have to give you my eyeballs and my attention.

Ms. Bev: I do not, and I don’t have to give you my money.

Sarah: No!

Ms. Bev: So, yeah, that’s how you survive. You do what’s best for you and your family.

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: Yeah. It’s like the old Crosby, Stills, Nash song: you teach your children well.

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: You know, so, do what you can.

Sarah: Throughout your writing career –

Ms. Bev: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – you have seen an astonishing number of changes in the world and society and how culture’s represented in romance, how romance is adjusting. Are there any changes that make you extremely hopeful and excited?

Ms. Bev: Just the, the, the inclusion of so many women and men of color and sexual orientation –

Sarah: And gender fluidity.

Ms. Bev: – and gender fluidity. I mean, all of that, because it starts to represent, be more representative of the people who read romance.

Sarah: Yes. I’ve said that many times: romance needs to look like the women who, and, and men –

Ms. Bev: And men and, and all –

Sarah: – and everyone who reads it, yes.

Ms. Bev: – everyone who reads it, yeah! And, you know, and, and a better reflection of society. So that’s, gives me a lot of hope. That women of color are writing on, in every subgenre, that gives me hope. So –

Sarah: And it’s easier to connect everyone.

Ms. Bev: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we all aren’t going, we, you know, we’re all not a, we’re not a hive mentality, but it’s always good to know that if you need somebody you can reach out.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. At any hour, talk to anybody.

Ms. Bev: At any hour, at any time.

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: You know, ‘cause people know I’m up all night. Let’s all call Bev.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: It’s four in the morning! Call Bev! She’s up! So that gives me hope. But then, you know, that gives me hope for the, for literature and fiction in general.

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: That it’s opening up. It’s, it’s, it’s a great time in many ways. It’s sort of a great time to be a creative person of color because there’s so much going on, there’re so many avenues opening through mainstream and self-publishing and, you know, with fantasy and comics and, you know, all that, so we’ll see what the future brings! Yeah.

Sarah: When you spoke at the Library of Congress –

Ms. Bev: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – couple of years ago –

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: – it was very cold. We were all packed into one room, and it was standing room only, and all the Library of Congress executives were like, I don’t understand!

Ms. Bev: Where are all these people coming from? Why are they here? Right.

Sarah: It’s, and it’s the same strange incredulousness at, how is Girls Trip a surprise success? I don’t understand! You put women at the center of a story and then people come to see it when there’re women of color who are just doing their own thing! How is this – ? That baffled surprise? I’m, it, it’s, it’s like don’t you – again, again we’re doing this.

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: So when we were at the Library of Congress, it was very cold –

Ms. Bev: It’s very cold.

Sarah: – so we’re all packed into that room –

Ms. Bev: Yes.

Sarah: – to keep warm.

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: I remember very clearly you saying something about how in the world of writing historical romance for people of color, you’re swinging out all alone on that branch, and it would be really nice if you had company.

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: You’ve got company!

Ms. Bev: I do! It’s awesome!

Sarah: It’s wonderful!

Ms. Bev: It is awesome!

Sarah: That wasn’t that many years ago!

Ms. Bev: No, it wasn’t.

Sarah: It was 2015, I think, or 2014.

Ms. Bev: Yeah, yeah. So you’ve got a few more women! We’ve got Alyssa. You’ve got, oh, I can’t think of her name, that wrote Taffy. Jesus! She’s going to hate me that I can’t remember her name. I do remember the name of the book! Taffy. We’ve Kiana got a few more people! And that’s a good thing. We’ve got Brown. We’ve got –

Sarah: Suzette Harrison?

Ms. Bev: Yes. Suzette.

Sarah: Ma’am, it is Friday on RWA.

Ms. Bev: I know.

Sarah: I did, I just did an interview with Alyssa Cole, and there were several times during that interview we were like, Friday RWA brain bad good no word.

Ms. Bev: Oh, no, no –

Sarah: No words brain.

Ms. Bev: No brain, no brain.

Sarah: No brain, no, no good word, no.

Ms. Bev: No good brain, no good word. Yeah.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: So, yeah, it’s good to be, you know, not climbing that tree by myself anymore? We’ll see what the future brings.

Sarah: Going to be a big tree.

Ms. Bev: Yeah, I think so. Big-ass tree, yeah.

Sarah: So with your upcoming, the historical that you’re finishing –

Ms. Bev: Right.

Sarah: – the third in the, what is the series called? I’ve been call- –

Ms. Bev: They call it the Old West, I call it the Rhine series.

Sarah: The Rhine series –

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: – that’s what I knew you called it, and they had a different name.

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: So the third in the Rhine series.

Ms. Bev: Mm.

Sarah: Is there anything you can tell us about the story?

Ms. Bev: Well, all I can say is this –

Sarah: Can you just tell me, ‘cause I really want to read it? [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: Yeah, yeah, I, you –

Sarah: Tell me where your –

Ms. Bev: I can tell you, and I know you won’t tell anybody else.

Sarah: – where, where is your laptop? I’ll just go borrow it for a little while?

Ms. Bev: Yeah, it just came out of the shop.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: She left the family –

Sarah: At the end of book two.

Ms. Bev: – ranch at the end of book two –

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: – to go to Wyoming to be a mail-order bride, okay, because she’s always looking for adventure over the, you know, looking for something over the next hill.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: She wanted love.

Sarah: Restless people –

Together: – are restless people.

Ms. Bev: You know, they, they all go west, and in her case it was east. I think, yeah, east.

Sarah: She’s actually, like, almost going backwards from – her name began with an H, and she was –

Ms. Bev: It’s, it’s Re-, Regan.

Sarah: Yes. And then the her-, the heroine of the first Destiny book as well went from Philadelphia –

Ms. Bev: Oh, yeah, yes.

Sarah: – to the west.

Ms. Bev: Yes, yes. Her, yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: Her. Her name began with an H, right? Is my brain right about that?

Ms. Bev: Girl, I don’t know!

Sarah: Hester? I don’t know.

Ms. Bev: Not Hester; that was Indigo.

Sarah: That was Indigo.

Ms. Bev: What’s that child’s name?

Sarah: This is so embarrassing.

Ms. Bev: Oh, my God, I need a –

Sarah: Oh, brain!

Ms. Bev: I need a reader here. One of my readers, call us and let us know what the woman –

Sarah: RWA brain is embarrassing.

Ms. Bev: I know.

Sarah: But anyway –

Ms. Bev: Anyway.

Sarah: – she’s going east –

Ms. Bev: She’s going east, and this was good –

Sarah: – ‘cause restless people going to, going to wander.

Ms. Bev: Yeah. Restless people going to restle.

Sarah: That’s right.

Ms. Bev: So she goes, and she thinks it’s going to be, you know, a cakewalk. She’s going to, you know, this guy’s going to love her, and, and, and she’s going to, you know, be okay with his six-year-old child, and then she gets there, and she finds out, well, first of all, she shoots him.

Sarah: That should help things along.

Ms. Bev: Yeah, he’s not happy.

Sarah: Nooo.

Ms. Bev: She thinks they’re a bunch of bandits, but it’s really a – [laughs] – it’s really a sheriff’s posse. So –

Sarah: I can see why she would be –

Ms. Bev: So, you know, she’s got this Winchester, she’s trained, trained to use it, and so she’s, thinks she’s protecting the old guy who’s driving the – she shoots this guy, and it turns out to be the doctor who she’s supposed to marry.

Sarah: Oops.

Ms. Bev: And – [laughs] – oops! And also, he is a widower. She knew that.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: But she didn’t know that he’d buried his heart with his wife. He’s looking strictly for somebody to raise his daughter.

Sarah: No emotional entanglement.

Ms. Bev: No emotional entanglement. I ain’t doing that.

Sarah: And that’s not her, that’s not the impression she received.

Ms. Bev: And she’s like, oh. This is going to be harder than I thought.

Sarah: And she’s moving into a situation where she thought she was going to be appreciated emotionally, and really, it’s like she’s been hired –

Ms. Bev: Yes.

Sarah: – for a job that she’s not going to get paid for.

Ms. Bev: Right, yeah. So, what do you do?

Sarah: Yep. Make the best of it.

Ms. Bev: Make the best of it.

Sarah: Leave.

Ms. Bev: Leave. She can’t go home again.

Sarah: No.

Ms. Bev: She’s got too much pride for that.

Sarah: Yep. Can’t go home.

Ms. Bev: So she’s going to try and make do with what she has. She has a, a real good connection with the daughter, which is maybe all she’ll wind up with.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: So, you’ll find out when the book comes out in January!

Sarah: I’ll find out when the book comes out. [Huffs]

Ms. Bev: I know.

Sarah: Fine.

Ms. Bev: I’m sorry.

Sarah: It’s all right.

Ms. Bev: I’m sorry! [Laughs]

Sarah: Do readers still tell you, write faster?

Ms. Bev: Yeah, of course. Everywhere I go. All the time.

Sarah: Write faster?

Ms. Bev: But then I do the same thing!

Sarah: You, you have not changed your pace. It’s –

Ms. Bev: I know!

Sarah: Once you find it, work with it!

Ms. Bev: I’ve just finished, you know, it’s – one of the joys of being away from home is that I get to read a little bit.

Sarah: I would love to hear about what you’re reading, ma’am. You need to tell me.

Ms. Bev: I just finished the third book in The Great Library, Ash and Quill –

Sarah: Ooh!

Ms. Bev: – and I sent Rachel Caine a tweet yesterday, and I said, girl, you’re killing me.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Ms. Bev: I thought the third book would be the last book; I thought it would be a trilogy.

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Ms. Bev: It’s not. So I told her, I need book four, like, tonight.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Listen, I’ll be there in about twenty-five minutes.

Ms. Bev: I don’t know where she lives.

Sarah: But we’ll be, I’ll be there!

Ms. Bev: I love this series! Oh. My. Goodness!

Sarah: What do you love about it?

Ms. Bev: I love her writing; I love the premise; I love the situation that she’s putting her characters in. I mean, she’s got these kids in danger!

Sarah: And it sounds like after you finished the book, you’re still thinking about them!

Ms. Bev: Yes! ‘Cause I finished it yesterday afternoon, when I had a break for about an hour, and I had, like, it was on, like, eighty-seven in the Kindle, eighty-seven percent.

Sarah: Almost there!

Ms. Bev: So I came up and, and, and just knew! I was like, this doesn’t look like it’s going to be resolved.

Sarah: Crap!

Ms. Bev: That’s exactly what I said.

Sarah: Crap!

Ms. Bev: So, like I said, I sent her, I said, girl, you’re killing me!

[Laughter]

Ms. Bev: And then I closed it with, awesome writing. She’s such a great writer. I mean, this book should have as much hype and love, this series, as the Harry Potter series, ‘cause it’s a great series! And it’s based on what we love, which are books! So. I don’t know if, have you, I don’t know if you’ve read this series or not.

Sarah: Mm, what was the first one? Do you remember?

Ms. Bev: The Great Library. The first one is –

Sarah: Ash and Quill, Ink and Bone – nice – Paper and Fire. Awesome. Ink and Bone, Paper and Fire, Ash and Quill. Have you read the Peter Grant series?

Ms. Bev: Yes!

Sarah: My husband and I have been, like, reading it at the same time. We never read the same thing.

Ms. Bev: I love them.

Sarah: Oh, my goodness. And I, and it occurred to me when I was reading the last one I just finished, which is the one with the big twist at the end with what is happening right now?

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: It occurred to me that the way in which Aaronovitch works history and architecture and the history of London –

Ms. Bev: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – into the story is very similar to the way you work American history into your books.

Ms. Bev: And you know who else is really good at that?

Sarah: Who?

Ms. Bev: The guy who, when I can’t, you know, here I go, trying to think of somebody else right –

Sarah: Just, you know, the guy who wrote some words.

Ms. Bev: He, he writes the Junior –

Sarah: So, the Junior Bender series?

Ms. Bev: Yes!

Sarah: By Timothy Hallinan? So the first one is Crashed –

Ms. Bev: Yes!

Sarah: – and then Little Elvises?

Ms. Bev: Junior is the, he’s like a, a detective, but he’s also a, a thief.

Sarah: Very convenient pairing of –

Ms. Bev: He’s a break-in artist.

Sarah: Yep, very convenient.

Ms. Bev: He’s very good at what he does, but he solves mysteries for the mob.

Sarah: As you do.

Ms. Bev: As you do. So, as you’re going through these great stories, he’s giving you a whole tour and background on architecture in LA and in California, and it’s just really, really, really well done.

Sarah: Cool!

Ms. Bev: Yeah, so when you talked about Aaronovitch, that’s what made me think about Junior Bender. Junior’s a trip.

Sarah: So, one thing I’ve noticed a lot in romance are readers who are able to identify what I like to call their catnip. Like, okay, so it’s a marriage of convenience story –

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: – between two rival families, and there’s a pretend engagement, and someone’s just like give it to me!

Ms. Bev: Right.

Sarah: What’s your romance catnip? What story is going to make you go, stop! Give it to me immediately? I know it has to do with history.

Ms. Bev: Well, yeah, history, yeah, but –

Sarah: Or worldbuilding.

Ms. Bev: Yeah, I like –

Sarah: Or worldbuilding with history!

Ms. Bev: Right, there you go. I like, I like marriages of convenience. I like – God, what else do I do? I like road trips.

Sarah: I love road trips. Road trip romances are wonderful.

Ms. Bev: I love road trips. And I, and I love those especially in contemporaries.

Sarah: Have you ever read Ruthie Knox’s first book?

Ms. Bev: No!

Sarah: It was, it was a cross-country bicycle trip.

Ms. Bev: Oh, my goodness!

Sarah: It’s wonderful.

Ms. Bev: No!

Sarah: She makes biking through Kansas interesting.

Ms. Bev: Oh! Flatlands!

Sarah: That’s right.

Ms. Bev: Yeah. But I, I, I don’t really have a, you know, other than the marriage of convenience, I don’t really have – I just like great writing.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: You know, give me a good story and anything will be my catnip.

Sarah: Yep.

Ms. Bev: Whether it’s romance, whether it’s fantasy, whether it’s science fiction, whether it’s nonfiction.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Bev: It’s good writing.

Sarah: Yeah! If you could give a piece of writing advice to anyone who’s listening who’s thinking, I think I want to write a romance novel – ‘cause I’ve met many first-timers here this year –

Ms. Bev: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and they are very smart ladies.

Ms. Bev: Yes, they are.

Sarah: They’re so smart. Like, I don’t think this part, this, this workshop is for me, but I’m really excited about this one, and –

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: – I met this woman, and it changed my entire perspective.

Ms. Bev: Yeah.

Sarah: The women who – I mean, I always think that showing up to a writers’ conference to begin with is an incredibly –

Ms. Bev: It’s awesome.

Sarah: It’s awesome, and it’s incredibly brave.

Ms. Bev: Yeah. Yep, yep.

Sarah: If you could give pieces of advice to any first-timer or anyone who’s listening, thinking –

Ms. Bev: Okay.

Sarah: – I want to write a romance, I think I want to do this –

Ms. Bev: What would it say?

Sarah: – what would you say?

Ms. Bev: Write the story of your heart. Don’t let anybody tell you what you write is not valuable. Have fun with it. Stay the course.

Sarah: Don’t give up!

Ms. Bev: All those clichés. And if you get stuck or swamped or overwhelmed, reach out! You know, there’s that old cliché of, you know, life is slippery; we have to hold hands. You know, that is so true of the romance community. We will throw a hand out there for you to grab hold of. So, for what it, what it’s worth, that’s my two cents.

[music]

Sarah: And that is all for this week’s episode. I want to thank Ms. Beverly Jenkins for inviting me to her suite, which was pretty damn awesome, and taking the time to do this interview at a conference where she did not have a lot of free time because she received a most deserved award. Congratulations again, Ms. Bev!

I will have links to her speech and to the Slayer of Words collection and to all of the books and things that we talked about, including the GoFundMe for her movie in the podcast entry, and you can find it at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast!

You can also find us at iTunes.com/DBSA with recent episodes and links to the iBookstore if you are an iBook-ish kind of person.

I also want to tell you thank you, thank you, thank you if you’ve had a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. It helps make the show more and more gooder, as I like to say, and I am still in awe of the audio quality with the equipment upgrade, so thank you deeply, deeply for that and for all of your monthly pledges. It is incredibly, incredibly appreciated.

I also want to thank you if you have told a friend or left a review or subscribed to the show. Apparently, this makes the show much easier to find in various podcast algorithms, and while I don’t have complete stats for the show, it continues to grow, which is amazing, so thank you for that!

The music you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. This is called “Dragons,” because of course it is. [Laughs] There’s no other track I could use for this particular episode. It’s “Dragons”! Duh! This is Caravan Palace. I love this track particularly a lot, also ‘cause I like dragons. Their two-album set, Caravan Palace and Panic, is available at iTunes and on Amazon, and I’m still enjoying the hell out of it, and I hope you are too.

Future podcasts include me doing interviews with people at RWA. Next week I have an interview with author Santino Hassell that I’m very excited about, but in the meantime, on behalf of Ms. Bev and everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a most excellent weekend.

[flying, fire-breathing music]