Rant
Genre: Contemporary Romance, Erotica/Erotic Romance, Romance
Archetype: Blue Collar, Cop/Sheriff, Military
I received the following Book Rant from MoWeezy, who had a really, really difficult time reading Lora Leigh’s Nauti Temptress. Expect livid fury, unabated. With gifs!
…
Long time reader, first time caller and all that.
I wanted to tell you about a book that made me scream, throw my kindle, and metaphorically rend my garments.
I used to be a big fan of the Lora Leigh oeuvre. Sadly she’s long since gone off the rails, and I’ve returned to my first love of Regencies and Jennifer Cruisie. However, I read a Leigh recently that made me FLAME with anger.
Like this, pardon the swear:
Should have known from the title: Nauti Temptress. I thought I’d send it over to you so you could either tell me I’m crazy or if i’m crazy right.
Seriously this book made me so angry I winged my e-reader at my boyfriend screaming. Essentially there’s some really patriarchal “let’s shame the woman who makes choices for her body” that I had to keep checking that this was in fact by the same author of which I had read SO many books. Apologies if we differ on our viewpoints on abortion/my semi-flippant treatment here, this book just threw abortion/the morning after pill around so much it made me livid.
Point 1- The author refers to the morning after pill as an “abortion pill” multiple times. Medically incorrect. Granted, people shouldn’t look to romance novels as their medical advice but still. Research please. Or just leave it out.
Point 2 – Hero has sex with Heroine and doesn’t tell her that the condom breaks… for DAYS. (She’s a virgin and doesn’t realize it apparently)
Point 3 – Hero has sex with Heroine again, and doesn’t use a condom and then she freaks afterwards.
Point 4 – Hero essentially LOCKS Heroine in this house/ removes her ability to leave the property for 72 hours because that’s how long she has to take the morning after pill. Seriously, there are paragraphs devoted to his thought process here. This is where the screaming escalated.
This is the kicker- Heroine figures it out, and freaks out, NOT because she’s 24* (or so — I don’t know exactly, but LL prefaces this book with the Hero being at least 10+ years older) and her significantly older man is preventing her from getting medical assistance but because she can’t believe his first reaction would be (to assume) that HER first reaction would be to abort.
Especially because they have had NO conversation about this being anything other than casual sex. And she’s just recently lost her virginity. To him.
It’s not just this one section, but this hero’s hang ups with women having reproductive choices separate from what the men in their family would want, is just RAMPANT in this book. Not that I’m expecting a romance author whose male characters are predominately overbearing Type As to suddenly make them all hip with the feminists but seriously, I couldn’t deal with Leigh forcing this stuff down my throat. (hah. get it?)
It’s just weird seeing it from an author who has a whole series of books that revolve around man-wolf/coyote hybrids that have a biological imperative to have TEH BUTTSECKS with their “one true mates.”
Just wanted to see if you wouldn’t mind like to warning readers out there, who may be attempting to reconnect with Lora Leigh, since the first Nauti series was pretty good. There is no mention of this craziness in any of the Amazon reviews, or anywhere I could find in a quick Google search.
I wanted to warn the SBTB community that if they feel as I do re: women’s reproductive rights, they should not waste their $9.99. Unless they want to yell and throw things.
I never DNF a book, but this is the first one I had to force myself to finish.
The real thread that runs through this is my sadness at authors who are extremely prolific (Leigh, Kenyon, etc.) who have these crazy/amazing books or series that start, and then they continue them into this realm of just utter ridiculousness. The parts that I loved about the initial books get tainted with this formula, and they go downhill, and fast. I tend to read a new book and then go back and read the backlog of an author, and I’m usually surprised at how much I prefer the initial books to the ones that are still coming out (see Sherrilyn Kenyon). Combined with this obvious ploy at pushing an agenda — the Hero’s opinion on birth control and a women’s ability to make choices — it completely removes me from the story and it’s hard to even want to go back and read the inspiration for this novel, because my view of these characters has been so tainted. I’ve sworn I won’t buy another Lora Leigh ever again.
I think that’s what made me so rage-y, these original characters who were such fun romps (although the book’s not what I would categorize as a “romp” it’s just super fun and quick to read) get turned into caricatures in order to sell more books in the same series.
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“” if they feel as I do re: women’s reproductive rights, they should not waste their $9.99. Unless they want to yell and throw things.”
I am offended by your opinion, because this too biased. If I believe that the decision to abort or not, is has to be taken as a couple and not just women. I am a misogynous , for believe that?
obviously I have not read the book, but his opinion, this review , is not objective irritates me.
While I take exception with some of the assumptions you make, I believe you make them in good faith and striving not to be judgemental—thank you.
A review does not have to be objective to be valid—it’s the point of view of the reviewer, nothing more nothing less.
Now a book report…
I don’t understand what you mean by this.
Thank you to those of you who understood why I chose to be so open, even if you don’t agree with my particulars. I didn’t share my personal belief system in an effort to impose it on anyone else, but simply to point out that each one of us has complicated opinions on this topic—each based on our own beliefs and experiences. I knew that know matter how articulate I tried to be, I was never going to nail it, but I did my best to address the theological elephant in the room.
I could spend the next month trying to clarify my statments and fruitlessly address everyone’s comments. The one item that I will comment on is the semantics of the term “pro-abortion”. In the United States, where abortion is a much more polarized and political topic than in many other parts of the industrialized world, the group that believes that there should be strict legal restrictions on abortion identifies itself as “Pro-Life”, while the group that does not believe in strict legal restrictions is labeled as “Pro-Choice.”
The “Pro-Life” label has always bothered me because it somehow implies that those of us who support choice are somehow “Anti-Life”. And from some conservative quarters, there also seems to be a supposition that if you support a woman’s right to choose then you are somehow part of some nebulous Abortion Agenda. And there is also a stereotype that the women who choose abortion do so with no deliberation or consideration whatsoever. Members of the “Pro-Life” movement sometimes use the term “Pro-Abortion” to imply that individuals who support choice promote abortion with some bizarre level of zeal or glee.
So I actually agreed with the opinions of most of the posters who identify as “pro-abortion”, even though I used the term “pro-choice”. Just because it’s an option that I might not choose for myself, it doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in the right of all women to have access to safe abortions on demand and free from stigma. If that is your definition of being “pro-abortion”, then I am also pro-abortion.
I agree with many of the things Ellielu (and others) said, and I don’t think she deserves the backlash she received for sharing an honest opinion. I do not believe abortion is a sin, but I do believe it is tragic in many ways and should never be treated lightly. Abortion, in my opinion, should be a last resort after all other options have been exhausted.
Before I make my next point I should make it clear that I am 100% in support of a woman’s right to choose and hold no stigma against women who get abortions for medically necessary reasons, or due to rape or incest, or even birth control malfunction. But if a woman gets pregnant because she was “playing russian roulette” and not being responsible by using birth control, I think she deserves to carry the baby to term. That said, no one should raise a child they didn’t want and were not prepared for financially or emotionally, because that is damaging to both the child and the parent. But have the baby and then give it up for adoption. You should not snuff out the beginnings of life because you were irresponsible. Again, this is JUST MY OPINION and I wouldn’t dream of imposing it on anyone through law or coercion.
Also, there is at least one instance in which no one can argue that abortion is not morally wrong: In many countries, female fetuses are aborted because of a “traditional” preference for male children. This is not OK, especially because many of the women are coerced into getting an abortion (this actually happened to the mother of a friend of mine HERE in the United States). In this case, a medically advanced and forward-thinking procedure is being used to support a backward belief system.
Bottom line: I am completely in support of a woman’s right to choose. I am just stating my opinions, which should not be used to prevent any woman from making her own choices. But abortion is a complicated and difficult topic and no matter how pro-life or pro-choice you are, there are always exceptions. Which is why I think a little more open-mindedness and tolerance is in order from both sides of the debate.
Seriously? And does the innocent baby deserve to be the punishment for the woman’s behaviour? Does that baby deserve to be born unwanted? And while there are plenty of people willing to adopt, there are also many more children who are never adopted.
So frankly, call me narrow minded if you wish, but I call bullshit there—I don’t see a lot of caring for that innocent life, when the argument is that the woman deserves to be punished, by carrying that baby to term, for getting pregnant.
“But if a woman gets pregnant because she was “playing russian roulette” and not being responsible by using birth control, I think she deserves to carry the baby to term. “
Okay. Not only is this profoundly evil, it’s profoundly ignorant. You can’t get pregnant from Russian Roulette. Gun, head, dead. Gun,vagina, dead. Not pregnant.
Secondly, I imagine Jesus on his cloud is going “Oy gevalt! Again with the abortion thing? I talk about loving your neighbour, about not casting the first stone, forgiving your prodigal kid, about charity and Samatitans, but what are they always talking about? Abortion! Abortion! Abortion! What do I know from abortion? Mum was a virgin, Dad was a runaway parent, you think I’m going to care about who gets pregnant and how? I didn’t even mention abortion! And Dad, don’t get him started or he’s going to demand you sacrifice your first-born to him!
Seriously, people, can you go back and look at what I said? I made it as simple as possible. I even used small words. Love, charity, forgiveness. No A.B.O.R.T.I.O.N. Ever.”
“But have the baby and then give it up for adoption.”
Yeah, white Christians love this option because of the chronic shortage of healthy *white* babies available for childless rich women to adopt. Also, it’s more painful and dangerous for the woman, so it’s a much better punishment for those goddamn sluts.
“You should not snuff out the beginnings of life because you were irresponsible.”
“*you*”? A woman gets pregnant on her own? No man with a broken condom, no man forcing or talking her into sex without protection? No ignorant Catholic girls deliberately kept ignorant by her parents, school, and state so she hasn’t got a clue about contraception (that would be me by the way)?
Just irresponsible sluts, pushing their vaginas onto completely innocent men’s hapless erections, stealing their sperm, and having abortions because they’re fun!
“Again, this is JUST MY OPINION and I wouldn’t dream of imposing it on anyone through law or coercion. “
Of course not. Butter wouldn’t melt in your mouth. With a mind that cold and frozen, I reckon you could store fish there for six months without difficulty.
You’re a uncharitable, judgemental slut shamer. You wouldn’t know “open-mindedness and tolerance” if they sat on your face.
You’re a nasty piece of work, you know that?
You’re not capable of a reasonable discussion on this matter. At all. You’re just jumping this woman’s shit left and right, nothing but hostility coming out of you.
Not only name calling, but guilty of the personality crimes you’re accusing her of – judgemental, uncharitable, narrow-minded.
I say this as an atheist woman who works, for a living, protecting women’s reproductive rights. So, before I get slammed for anything I just want anyone who cares to know it can’t be because I have certain beliefs or because I am “pro-life”. What stupid terms – pro-life and pro-choice and pro-abortion! They do nothing for the conversation we need, as women, to have.
Do ME a favor, okay? Since I go to work every day and do my best to make sure all of us here get the best access to WHATEVER medical and health care we need, as women, without impediment, do me a favor and stop contributing to the problem WITH YOUR NASTY MOUTH.
Grow the fuck up. I don’t CARE what you’ve been through. If you’re a warrior, then harden up like one and do what you need to do to move things forward.
What you’re doing here is NOT it.
Oh, yeah, and I did do a little name calling. But, that’s because I am one annoyed cranky fuck right now.
“You’re not capable of a reasonable discussion on this matter”
Oh I am, with reasonable people who don’t talk about punishing women for ‘Russian Roulette’ with the wombs. I just don’t see the point of trying to reason with people so twisted they would rather put a woman through a life-threatening situation, rather than remove a piece of non-vaiable tissue incapable of sentience.
” because I am one annoyed cranky fuck right now. “
So…it’s okay for you to call me names and get angry when someone pisses you off, but not for anyone else?
I guess for you, the golden rule is ‘Do unto others…then split’.
I’m so glad that you are the one deciding who gets to say what and in what way about a subject that may or may not be personal to them. That’s definitely what this debate needs – another tone monitor.
Look, Ann, I didn’t split. This isn’t a chat room. It’s a forum. I can only wait for you to respond. And here I am.
And, no, you’re completely wrong. This woman you’re taking a shit on, EvieM, is attempting to have an actual conversation about the topic. But, you object to certain aspects to her vernacular and explode your drama all over her, losing your cool in the process.
This does nothing to convince her, or anyone, that you’re anything other than totally crazy. You sound like an angry, ugly, mean person.
You may NOT be, but you are spitting fire. WHY would ANYONE on THAT side of the conversation ever want to actually talk to you? Hell, I hardly do and I agree with your side.
I talk about this for a living. I write about it for a living, in the form of research. The only way to move this forward for the benefit of all women, including women who don’t agree with us, is to take the nasty out of it, no matter what they say. Even if it reminds you of the pain you went through. You stuff it and carry on.
Learn to recognize when someone is trying to talk to you. It’s an opportunity you’re missing by fighting.
” WHY would ANYONE on THAT side of the conversation ever want to actually talk to you?”
None of the people on THAT side of conversation are EVER going to listen to people like me. They made their minds up about women like me a long time ago.
Just like you have.
“I talk about this for a living”
Good for you. I don’t make a living out of my experiences and my beliefs, I just live with them. I was raised by people with the mindset you are so desperate to coddle. I don’t actually care if they change their minds. I do care about challenging the idea that we should ‘tolerate’ attitudes which lead to active harm. Same as I challenge homophobia, racism, or ableism.
I don’t care what you think, and I certainly am not going to listen to you blasting me and telling me to keep quiet. I am a woman with a dog in this fight, and if you don’t like the dog or me, that’s too bad.
I am absolutely horrified by some of the things I’ve read on this thread, and I am going to say so in the strongest way I can because the only weapon I have is words. You no like? Too fucking bad.
Evie: You cannot call for open-mindedness and tolerance after two paragraphs of passing judgment on other women. It’s hypocritical.
So, if they’re not going to listen to you, then you’re shouting your anger into a void, aren’t you? Is that what you’re saying?
I don’t buy for one minute that you don’t care what I have to say to you, or that that you really think people’s minds are made up.
Why do I think that? Because if you really felt that way you wouldn’t bother typing a word. You wouldn’t feel such anger and outrage – horrified? Like you haven’t heard this before. Have you been living under a log? If you didn’t care you wouldn’t keep talking.
What I am saying is since you obviously do care about this, as you say you have a dog in this fight, then fight smart. I also have a dog in this fight. I may not have had an abortion, but I am a woman who works for the rights of women. And I have a son I am raising to believe the same as you and I do. In addition, in the field I work I see the actual health policy implications of this fight. So, I really really really know how the fight is going.
I am not telling you to shut up. I am telling you to stop being counterproductive and start talking and writing in ways that actually help.
You’re right. You don’t have to listen to me. But it’s frustrating to me to see you be so damaging to the cause. Strength of words don’t go in one direction.
Time out, y’all.
For awhile, this was a heated but civil discussion. Usually we can have conversations about topics like this that are divided but don’t descend into screaming. Unfortunately with issues like abortion, it gets uncivil in a hurry. Dammit.
1. Whether you’re talking about romance novels, abortion, healthcare, or shopping for shoes, no one woman speaks for all other women- not accurately. It’s not possible.
2. I’d learn a lot more from people who hold views in opposition to mine if they didn’t attack me for having views that oppose their own.
I’m hoping someday soon that anything that brings up a woman’s reproductive decisions for her own body won’t degenerate into screaming and anger but clearly that day isn’t today.
This pretty much says it all. It’s not about saving the precious unborn, it’s about punishing women for having sex in a manner that you don’t approve of.
You might want to take some time to consider the implications of equating pregnancy and childbirth with punishment.
So how do you address the first statement? If a woman having irresponsible sex gets pregnant, and therefore DESERVES to have the baby, how do you make that happen? Who’s going to monitor her pregnancy to make sure she doesn’t end it? Who decides which people are pregnant through allowable actions and who are pregnant because of their irresponsibility? How do they decide it? What kind of evidence do you consider? How long is this decision process going to take, and what kind of resources will it consume?
This is why there is really no valid reason to create blocks and impediments to prevent women getting abortions. Setting up a system to examine and judge ALL abortions in order to prevent the infinitesimally small number of “frivolous” abortions is wasteful, insulting, and stupid.
I am truly sorry if I offended anyone with my previous statements. My word choice was poor in some areas. I do not, under any circumstances, believe a woman should be punished for an unwanted pregnancy. But I also don’t appreciate being attacked for stating an opinion, especially since I thought I made it very clear that I would never try to impose my personal views on someone else. I strongly believe women should be completely free to make their own choices when it comes to abortion, and should have access to safe, legal abortion for any reason.
The point I was trying to get across was that both sides of this debate have more in common than they think and should work harder to find common ground instead of becoming more polarized. I thought that by giving examples of situations in which I think abortion should not happen, I could show that I had some common ground with the pro-life side, even though I am pro-choice. Similarly, many pro-lifers believe in making exceptions in cases of rape, incest, or when the life of the mother is in danger. This is the common ground they have with us.
Ann: It would take me hours to reply to everything you’ve accused me of, so I will just say this: I am truly sorry for offending you, but viciously attacking someone for having an opinion different than one’s own is counter-productive and is one of the major reasons why the abortion debate has become so polarized. Also, for the record, I am 100% pro-choice and don’t believe in any exceptions (as long as the abortion is being performed under the woman’s own free will). We are on the same side. I would fight for any woman’s right to an abortion, no matter her reasons. My personal beliefs are my own, and unlike some, I don’t believe my personal views should dictate how others live their lives.
Unimaginative: I must apologize for the poor word choice in my original post. It was early in the morning and I wasn’t fully awake yet. I don’t think any woman deserves to be punished for having sex in a manner someone else doesn’t approve of. I just think that abortion should not be a substitute for birth control, but rather the next step to take if contraception fails.
“This is why there is really no valid reason to create blocks and impediments to prevent women getting abortions. Setting up a system to examine and judge ALL abortions in order to prevent the infinitesimally small number of “frivolous” abortions is wasteful, insulting, and stupid.”
I don’t believe there should be any blocks or impediments for abortion. The decision to get an abortion, for ANY reason, should lie solely with the woman in question. I tried to make it clear that I would never use my own views to prevent anyone else’s personal decision. I shared my views not for their own sake, but to make the point that both sides of the abortion debate could benefit from finding common ground.
SabbyATL: Thank you for your statements in my defense. You made some very good points and I applaud your work to protect women’s reproductive rights.
Sarah: I should have re-read what I wrote before posting, because then I would have realized that it did, indeed, sound very judgmental. I hope you, and everyone, understand that that was never my intent.
” but viciously attacking someone for having an opinion different than one’s own is counter-productive and is one of the major reasons why the abortion debate has become so polarized.”
The abortion debate is polarised for one reason, Evie – because women have become the right wing’s political football. Do not run around slut shaming and then get cranky because one of the sluts fights back against your hate filled screed. Nothing I said was as vile, as literally evil, as the idea that women need to be punished for becoming accidentally pregnant by being forced to give birth and go through the trauma of adoption. That statement of yours was and is so distressing that I was upset all day yesterday over it, and is the reason I’m up at 2.30 in the morning writing this. I am still in shock that in the 21st century, a woman can come onto a blog like this and casually mention she holds that kind of opinion, apparently expecting to be applauded for being such a liberal because she doesn’t *actually* tie women down for nine months to make them give birth to the ‘innocent life’.
“We are on the same side. “
No, we’re bloody not.
We won’t be on the same side until you examine what makes you think your opinion on this is fit to be aired in polite company. I won’t stop attacking your opinion and opinions like them until women can mention their terminations as casually as they do root canals and mammagrams, and people like you are not just ashamed to say stupid shit like ‘women who play russian roulette should be forced to give birth’, they’re actually too ashamed to even *think* it.
“I just think that abortion should not be a substitute for birth control, but rather the next step to take if contraception fails. “
You need to stop and think very carefully why this statement is full of crap. You need to examine why you exempt men entirely from any responsibility in the baby making process.
“I had some common ground with the pro-life side”
No, you are *on* the pro-life side in heart and mind. You’ve swallowed their logic hook line and sinker. You believe a foetus incapable of independent existence or thought is an ‘innocent life’. You believe women are sluts if they don’t use BC. You don’t believe men have any agency (or condoms.) You believe adoption is better than abortion.
Now maybe you believe those things because you were raised like I was. I completely understand how difficult it is to overcome intensive childhood indoctrination. Maybe you really do believe you’re 100% on the ‘choice’ side. But while you can say things like “if a woman gets pregnant because she was “playing russian roulette” and not being responsible by using birth control, I think she deserves to carry the baby to term” then you’ve completely misunderstood what pro-choice means. It’s not about grudgingly allowing women to get rid of the consequences of being irresponsible sluts – it’s about accepting that women have complete autonomy over their bodies, whether they’re carrying a foetus or not, and that until that foetus is capable of breathing on its own outside her body, then no one other than the woman has any say or any right to an opinion on its existence. A foetus is not as valuable as a woman’s life. Pregnancy is not a moral issue, and neither is sex with consenting adults.
Only when you can take your moralising out of your internal – and voiced – arguments, can you claim to be 100% pro choice.
Until then, this slut won’t shut up.
“Strength of words don’t go in one direction.”
Yeah. You use your words to give comfort to those who hold opinions which lead to active harm. Well done.
So basically you can take your advice and stick it where the sun doesn’t shine.
EvieM: no worries at all. I don’t think some of us are that far apart in our points of view, but this is a difficult issue to talk about. Thanks for coming back to clarify.
QFT
I think that somewhere along the line we have started having two separate conversations that are being blended together to the detriment of the thread.
Here’s the issues I hear being debated:
1. A women should have the legal right to choose an abortion, yes or no?
2. A women should or should not use birth control/be abstinent/follow some particular kind of sexual behavior, yes or no?.
I would like to suggest that a person can personally believe that women should be a chaste as nuns and yet POLITICALLY be pro-choice (they can legitimately say “yes” to both issue number one and issue number two). They may feel as personally judgemental as all hell about another’s behavior but genuinely and passionately believe that this debate is NOT the business of law or government.
What I hear EvieM saying is that although she has personal opinions about what women’s sexual and reproductive behavior should ideally be, she does not believe that the law has any right to dictate or enforce any behavior. There’s nothing inconsistent about that.
What I hear Ann and Unimaginative saying is that they object to being judged for their sexual behavior, whatever that may be, and they feel that a culture that judges women for how they behave sexually is a culture that is inherently sexual repressive even if legal access to abortion exists.
Am I interpreting your statements accurately?
Bless you Carrie for trying to be the voice of reason. Oh, the civil debate, where you share ideas and information without inferring things that aren’t being said, or yelling louder when someone disagrees with you, how I miss you.
“Am I interpreting your statements accurately? “
I believe so. But with the added point that personal opinions like Evie’s are the root cause of restrictions on abortion, contraception access, and sex education – which are only symptoms of an attitude to women that we are all too childlike and irresponsible to handle something as important as our own fertility.
This is why I was so angry at Ellielu as well, because the basic mentality is what needs to be changed. Evie and Ellielu are victims of patriarchal oppression too -they’ve been spoon fed this crap by their churches, male politicians, even by well meaning mothers and female relatives who want to save their daughters from the awful fate that befalls those sluts.
Until we recognise that the horrendous infantilisation of women and the demonisation of their sexuality is completely artificial, imposed by male driven agendas, and has nothing whatsoever to do with genuine ethics or morality, we will be fighting for women’s right to choose for the rest of this century and likely into the next millenium, if our species lasts that long.
I’m tired. I thought we’d be done with this crap by now. Seeing it pop up so fresh and invigorated and apparently undamaged by so many decades, so many women fighting for our basic rights, is incredibly depressing.
And on that point, Bnbsrose, if your acceptance of a group’s basic human rights depends on whether they’re been sufficiently polite and/or deferential to your feelings, then there’s something deeply screwed up with your moral sense. We live in a world where it’s apparently okay for male politicians to pass bills forcing women to undergo state sanctioned rape before they are allowed to terminate their pregnancies, but female politicians *discussing* the body parts intruded on by unnecessary, shaming vaginal ultrasounds, are officially silenced for being vulgar.
I’m sure those male politicians were perfectly polite as they stripped away the dignity of women needing to get on with their lives. I’m on the side of those rude, brave women who challenged them.
That’s pretty close, but it’s bigger than that. The things that MoWeezy listed as issues in this book, to the point where she screamed and yelled and threw her Kindle, are really, really disturbing to me.
The HERO of a romance novel had sex with the heroine without a condom, without telling her, and then locked her up so she couldn’t take steps to prevent pregnancy (apparently STDs don’t exist in Nauti-land). The heroine then (apparently) took offence NOT because he had confined her (a more serious crime than rape in many jurisdictions) and tried to force her to get pregnant (and then presumably carry the baby to term, because why would he balk at that?), but because HOW DARE HE presume that she would want to prevent pregnancy!
To put this into context, while Roe v Wade has established that abortions are legal in the US, there have been hundreds of bills introduced in every state in the US over the last couple of years designed to restrict access to abortion. There are now at least two states where the single clinic in the entire state at which women can get an abortion is in danger of closing due to new legislation designed to force them to close. There are almost continual threats of violence against doctors and staff and patients at abortion clinics (and why this violence isn’t classified as domestic terrorism is beyond me). There has been a string of proposed legislation that requires doctors to lie to women about the safety and risks of abortion. There has been a string of proposed legislation to restrict access to contraception.
If you cannot access a legal service, then whether it’s legal or not is moot. It’s not available to you. If a woman who needs to have an abortion cannot get one, then things will happen for which there are very few good outcomes (which is a whole separate rant).
I’ve come to believe that the two sides of the abortion “debate” are not having the same conversation, and do not have common ground. I doubt that they ever will. No one will ever convince me that my right to say whether something grows within and and using the materials of my own body ranks less than the right of a zygote to grow in my body without my permission. And, from what I’ve observed, nothing anyone can say will convince a hard-core pro-lifer that abortion isn’t murder (until they need an abortion themselves, but that’s another whole separate rant).
But I think it’s important to speak up when someone’s unacceptable behaviour is being treated as okay, because silence is generally considered to be agreement. The behaviour of the hero in this book is NOT okay.
Or, you know, what Ann said.
“What I hear EvieM saying is that although she has personal opinions about what women’s sexual and reproductive behavior should ideally be, she does not believe that the law has any right to dictate or enforce any behavior. There’s nothing inconsistent about that.”
YES. Thank you so much. This is exactly what I believe. Thank you for being the voice of reason.
Ann: You’ve already made up your mind about me, which is sad because, whether you choose to believe it or not, I’m actually your ally in the abortion debate. Refusing to accept an ally because their views aren’t exactly the same as your own is silly. If everyone did that, no fight would ever be resolved.
The reason I am still here defending myself is because everything I’ve been accused of is completely at odds with how I feel and act in real life. My earlier “russian roulette” statement was thoughtless and badly worded, and if it makes you feel better I will take it back in its entirety. What I should have said is that I don’t believe abortion should be used an excuse to forego birth control (for the female OR male partner). If someone is educated and has access to birth control and refuses to use it because “Oh I can get an abortion”, then I see that as plain stupidity. Why would they risk putting themselves through all that when they could have easily avoided it in the first place? But I also realize that real life is a lot more complicated than that, which is why I would never be in favor of a system that tries to put conditions on the availability of abortion. I’ve always been and always will be pro-choice, without any exceptions. The reason I feel so strongly about this one PERSONAL exception (which has no sway on my political views) is because I know people who operate with that attitude, and it frustrates me.
I also know someone who was pressured into having an abortion against her will because her baby was a girl, which is something that happens all too frequently in countries where male children are prized over female children. I think this is why I personally see the fetus as something more than just a bundle of cells: because of all the baby girls that are denied life due to sex-selective abortion in patriarchal societies. Those women’s right to keep their babies is just as important as their right to safe, legal, judgment-free abortion.
Anyway, I hope we can put this to rest now and return to civil discussion, because I never meant to start a fight. The reason I read this post in the first place was because I was disgusted, as you all were, by the actions of the hero in this book. I hope we can use that, at least, as a way to find common ground.
“if someone is educated and has access to birth control and refuses to use it because “Oh I can get an abortion”“
I disagree, deeply, with the moral judgement inherent in comparing a woman’s sexuality with playing (conception) roulette, or in believing that there are women who consider abortion a substitute for birth control.
However, I’ve been witness to more than one sexually active young woman biting her fingernails to see whether or not she got pregnant that “one” time she/he/they were careless.
And then there are the cases when, despite not being careless, people get pregnant when there are not ready for it, or when they definitely do not want to be pregnant—even when they mere idea of having children is revolting to them.
In either case, the decision to terminate the pregnancy or to carry to term should be the woman/the couple (because yes, if the male partner is willing to take responsibility for the child later on, I believe she should at least hear him out—she did not get pregnant all by herself, after all).
In that sense, I agree with you, and I appreciate that you are willing to express your views despite becoming a target of utter vitriol.
As CarrieS said,
Personally, I not only see nothing inconsistent there, but I also believe that there is personal courage in wanting other people to be able to exercise liberties that go against our own personal beliefs—whatever those beliefs might be.
People like you.
Ashamed of their own thoughts.
Does this sound familiar to anyone here?
Way to champion the rights of all women.
Oh FFS, I don’t think the rights of women are undermined by someone who has had a medical procedure wanting a day to come where people are unable to even think of shaming them over it. There actually are thoughts not worth having. If what another woman does with her body is important enough that it takes you multiple paragraphs to express your reluctant willingness for them to make their own medical choices then perhaps the issue is internal.
– Meoskop
“Does this sound familiar to anyone here?”
No, it’s only you and the voices in your head, AL. You do know it’s okay not to participate in a conversation when you don’t understand it and have nothing useful to contribute, right?
Let me posit some other thoughts I think people should be ashamed to have:
“Black people are all lazy, stupid thieves”
“Gay men are perverts and paedophiles”
“Disabled people would be better off dead”
“Women are too childish to be allowed to vote”
People can think whatever they want. Doesn’t mean the thoughts they have don’t come from a bad place, and need to be challenged.
After all, if a woman internalises the belief that some women are just sluts and need to be punished out of their slutty ways, that’s not good for *her*. Self-hatred is a terrible thing.
So…..tell me again why people read her books? Sweet baby Jesus, that is effed up.
Yowza. And I assume most of the people you were pitching to were women? If so, that’s even more disheartening.
I pretty much stopped reading contemporary unless it’s by a trusted author (like Jen Crusie) for this reason. Seems like most of the heroes that I’ve been reading in well-written historicals are more evolved and enlightened than these contemporary “gentlemen.” :-/
While I don’t agree with certain phrases in your comment (wow, “lazy sluttiness?” really???), I do thank you for trying to delineate pro-choice vs. “pro-abortion.” I know many people who are the former, myself included. I know no one who is the latter, myself included. For most, perhaps all, it’s a last resort, not a form of birth control.
“So I actually agreed with the opinions of most of the posters who identify as “pro-abortion”, even though I used the term “pro-choice”. Just because it’s an option that I might not choose for myself, it doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in the right of all women to have access to safe abortions on demand and free from stigma. If that is your definition of being “pro-abortion”, then I am also pro-abortion.”
This.
Agreed 100%.
“if someone is educated and has access to birth control and refuses to use it because “Oh I can get an abortion”“
Nobody says this, Evie. The fact you consider this remotely likely, tells me how deeply you believe the right wing lies about women.
No one in their right mind would choose abortion over contraception. For one, it’s not easy or quick to obtain one even where abortion is legal and cheap (the abortion pills may have changed all that but so far as I know most places only offer them under prescription). And in many places, particularly in America, they’re not cheap or even available a lot of the time.
Uh, yeah, actually I know of at least one couple who have done this on more than one occasion. There were condoms in several rooms in the house, they were in the moment and took and chance and guess what happened. Four abortions later (two were from failed birth control) someone finally invented the Morning After Pill. Sometimes both educated and uneducated people who have incredibly convenient access to birth control make stupid decisions that have consequences.
I won’t stop attacking your opinion and opinions like them …
You didn’t limit your attack to her opinion, you also attacked her.
Of course not. Butter wouldn’t melt in your mouth. With a mind that cold and frozen, I reckon you could store fish there for six months without difficulty.
You’re a uncharitable, judgemental slut shamer. You wouldn’t know “open-mindedness and tolerance” if they sat on your face.
At least EvieM owns her shit and apologizes.