Sarah interviews Suzanne and Matt, who are both romance readers, and Elyse and her husband Rich, who also both read romances. Suzanne introduced her husband to the genre, and their reading experience prompted Suzanne to contact Sarah about whether there were other couples who read romance together. Elyse and Rich, who also share a lot of reading material, join the interview to talk about their reading perspectives as well. We talk about consent, the female gaze, the male gaze, conflicting messaging in the narrative, descriptions of heroes, and how readers interpret what we are saying about sexuality and gender in romance.
NB: At about 22 minutes in, I talk about my interpretation of a scene in which I believe rape occurred, so please skip that if that would potentially upset you, k? I want you to feel safe. The discussion runs about 3-4 minutes, so please tap that skip :30 button on your podcast player.
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This Episode's Music
The music this week was provided by Sassy Outwater, and this piece is “Sonata for Piano, Op. 26: Fuga: Allegro Con Spirito” by Samuel Barber, and it’s performed by Jade Simmons.
It’s from her album Revolutionary Rhythm, which is on sale as an mp3 at Amazon or iTunes.
Transcript
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Smart Podcast, Trashy Books, September 2, 2016
[music]
Sarah Wendell: Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by episode number 210 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. Hi! I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and I am really excited about this interview, because I’m interviewing four people at the same time! Woohoo! I’m going to be speaking with Suzanne and Matt, who are both romance readers, and Elyse and her husband Rich, who also both read romance. Suzanne introduced her husband to the genre, and their reading experience prompted Suzanne to email me about whether there were other couples who read romance together. Elyse and Rich, who also share reading romance material, join the interview to talk about their perspectives as well. We talk about consent, the female gaze, the male gaze, conflicting messages in the narrative, descriptions of heroes, and how readers interpret what we are saying in romance about sexuality and gender.
Now please note, at about 22 to 24 minutes I start talking about a book called Phaeton Black, and I talk about my interpretation of a scene in which I believe rape happened, so please skip that section if it would potentially upset you, okay? So, around 22 to 24 minutes, I start talking about Phaeton Black, you can hit the skip ahead button ‘til I’m done, ‘cause I want you to feel safe, and I don’t want you to feel triggered or upset and unprepared.
This podcast episode is sponsored by you! Yes, all of you. Everyone who is listening! If you are listening to the podcast and you download it every week or you email me or you’ve checked out our Patreon at Patreon.com/SmartBitches, you are the very best! Seriously, I am incredibly honored at how many people contact me to say how much they enjoy the podcast every week, and I am so glad that you’re listening, so thank you very, very much for being here.
And if you’re thinking, I would like to sponsor an episode, I would like to sponsor a podcast episode very, very soon, that would be most rad! And I mean that; you could use the word “rad” in the promo language, ‘cause I use the word “rad” all the time. So just email me at [email protected] and tell me you’d like to sponsor an episode. We can talk about a book! We can talk about whatever you would like to share with people. Maybe you’ve got a thing for a fabric softener fragrance that Downy took off the market and you want to talk about it. I totally understand, because I miss Water Lily and Jasmine too. If you’re interested in sponsoring a show, email me! I would be more than happy to talk to you about it.
Our music is provided by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater, and I will have information at the end of the show as to who this is and where you can buy all of this fine music.
I also want to warn you we talk about a ton of books in this episode. We talk about the books that both of these couples read together, books they recommend to other people, books they’ve liked more than others. There’re so many books! And if you’re thinking I want to read one of them and I missed the name and the title and I’m driving or I’m dyeing wool or I am on the treadmill or I’m dyeing wool on the treadmill while driving – you probably shouldn’t do that – I put links to all of the books in the podcast entry at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, so you can head on over there and go shopping, should you wish to do so.
And now, grim-visaged war has smoothed his wrinkled front, and it is time for the podcast! On with the interviews!
[music]
Sarah: Suzanne, let me start with you.
Suzanne: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: If you would introduce yourself and explain the – if you remember – the original email you sent me and what really interesting thing you convinced your husband to do.
Suzanne: [Laughs] Okay, so this is Suzanne. So, this all kind of started, I guess – I am a regular listener of the podcast, of course, and I heard the interview with – oh, I’m forgetting her real name. I’m just thinking Emily Foster ‘cause her book’s coming out.
Sarah: Emily Nagoski, but yes.
Suzanne: Thank you!
Sarah: No worries!
Suzanne: And so I, you know, ordered, immediately after listening to the podcast, her book, Come As You Are, and I ordered something else, I think. I don’t know, something like steampunk or something, and so I was gone, I was off visiting my folks, and I told my husband, like, oh, well, feel free to open the Amazon box. There’s a book in there that you might be interested in reading. And so he opens it up and sees Come As You Are, and he’s like, uh, is this some sort of, like, hint?
[Laughter]
Suzanne: Yeah. And so I get this series of texts that’s like, um, am I doing something wrong? What are – ? And then I had to launch into this whole thing about the podcast and, like, oh, God. Anyway, it was this long thing about, no – [laughs] – it’s fine!
Sarah: Everything’s fine, dear. [Laughs]
Suzanne: Yeah. And, and so then we got to talking about, like, I was finding out some of the things that Emily had been saying on the podcast about, like, arousal non-concordance and that kind of stuff, which I found totally fascinating, and being a science nerd as well, Matt was think, thought it was pretty interesting as well, and we got to talking about romance novels, and so I was like, hey, have you ever thought of reading one? And, because he’s awesome –
Matt: [Snorts, laughs]
Suzanne: – he agreed to, which was pretty fun!
Sarah: Nice!
Matt: Was that before or after I read Level Up?
Suzanne: After. Both. And so we’re big geeks, right? I think it was you and Bree were talking about Level Up?
Sarah: Yes.
Suzanne: I immediately went and downloaded it and loved it, and –
Sarah: Oh, you liked it too?
Suzanne: Oh, it’s so good! I, basically, the only thing I didn’t like is that there’s not more?
Sarah: I know!
Suzanne: I’d love the other girls to get a story!
Sarah: I want the agoraphobic to have the best romance ever.
Suzanne: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah: Anyway. Yeah, anyway. More, more agoraphobic romance. As we were.
Suzanne: [Laughs] That’s not a specific request or anything. So Matt’s actually an IT manager, and so he works, like, you know, in one of those really male-dominated fields, but he’s, like, very conscious of helping the women on his team actually be, have, you know, have, like, advancement opportunities? And so that book, I was like, this is, this is exactly, like, Matt needs to read this. This is how it feels being a woman in a male-dominated field, and this is how it feels having everybody tell you, like, nope, you’re doing it wrong. I know what I’m doing, and just –
Sarah: Yep.
Suzanne: – dismissing you. So he read that, like, a couple months before…
Matt: I think so, yeah.
Suzanne: Yeah. So this is the first time I convinced him to read something that wasn’t like, hey, this is about your workplace, and there happens to be sexytimes in it.
[Laughter]
Matt: Yeah, I – this is Matt – I actually, as I was about halfway through the book I thought, oh, this is, this is an interesting, this is a cool book, and I actually recommended it to a couple of female coworkers before later feeling like I needed to backtrack so that I didn’t get accused of sexual harassment.
Suzanne: [Laughs] It’s not – but then, like – okay, the next, I think, like, a couple books later, I was recommending Beyond Control, Beyond Shame, one of the –
Matt: Beyond Shame.
Suzanne: – one of the Kit Rocha books, and I was like, nonono. You thought you were going to feel sexual harassment for Level Up? No, this, this is – [laughs] – definitely more, more sexytimes than that.
Sarah: That’s a lot of sexytimes in the Rocha books.
Suzanne: Yes, a lot, yep. Yep.
Matt: Yeah.
Suzanne: So that’s kind of, like, the spectrum. Like, here’s fairly tame, and here’s not. Yeah.
Matt: Well, and so, you’ve been – this is Matt again – Suzanne has been making recommendations to me both based on things that she thinks that I might like, but also to try and give me some idea of the breadth of the genre?
Suzanne: Yeah, ‘cause, I mean, as, as everybody listening to this probably knows, you can find everything from, you know, inspirationals that have absolutely, like, just maybe some handholding? To –
Sarah: Yep. Hot, hot, sexy handholding –
Suzanne: Exactly.
Sarah: – and maybe some gazing.
Suzanne: Maybe some ankle showing? Yeah? Right?
Sarah: Oh, ankle, ankle very serious business. You need to put, like, a little flame warning if there’s going to be ankle.
[Laughter]
Suzanne: Yeah, all the way to the, the, just straight-up, you know, erotica end of the spectrum. But, yeah, so, when I had originally contacted you, Sarah, it was, like, kind of more about asking, is, is there, like, a list that you can give to your husband or boyfriend or whatever about, like, hey, you should read this if you’re interested in, you know, reading the books I’m reading, and then, you know –
Matt: And if it was, if it was common –
Suzanne: Yeah, yeah.
Matt: – for, for couples to, to both read romance.
Suzanne: Yes. ‘Cause we, we started out, when we first started dating we were reading, like, we read Neil Gaiman’s, like, American Gods and Anansi Boys and, you know, nerd fiction together. We read a lot of comics together. Lots of, like, urban fantasy and epic fantasy, but we hadn’t read romance together.
Matt: So this was new ground.
Suzanne: Yeah, this was new ground.
Sarah: Sooo, what did you think?
Matt: I asked for more.
Sarah: We like you. Awesome! It’s very expensive here, I need you to know, but we, we’re welcome. [Laughs]
Elyse: One of us! One of us!
Sarah: Yay!
[Laughter]
Matt: Let’s see, so, I, like, I’ve read a few things, and –
Suzanne: I got him started reading Alisha Rai’s books now? And I think they’re like candy or, I don’t know, cinnamon buns or, or –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Suzanne: – whatever other foods that she lists in her books. [Laughs]
Matt: Well, and it’s also interesting, we’ve, we’ve had a lot of discussions about how it compares to the, the sorts of things that nerdy teenage boys typically read, you know, whether that’s Tolkien or whatnot, and, and how these things and expectations of the reader compare and things like that.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Suzanne: You mean like worldbuilding?
Matt: Worldbuilding, messaging –
Suzanne: Yeah, yeah.
Sarah: Women as the hero.
Suzanne and Matt: Yeah.
Sarah: Women being the hero, women achieving the centerpiece of the story?
Matt: Yep.
Sarah: That’s –
Suzanne: Even if it’s being women in the story.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Like, just, just having them around, doing things, not being scenery. [Laughs]
Matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah: So what have you liked so far?
Matt: Let’s see. So, I mean, I liked Level Up. I –
Sarah: I really love that book.
Suzanne: It’s so good. And it’s, if, I think it’s still free, so there’s, like, no reason not to read it.
Matt: I just read A Gentleman in the Street.
Suzanne: Did you like the Kit Rocha book? You did, right?
Matt: I did, yep. I’m going to read more of that probably. I, oh, I read the Christina Lauren –
Suzanne: Yeah.
Matt: – one. I read, I started with the third one, the –
Suzanne: In the Wild Seasons – Dark Wild Night? ‘Cause it has, like, nerdy hero and heroine.
Matt: Right, the one about the comic book author.
Suzanne: Yeah.
Sarah: Right. There needs to be a more serious delineation of nerd romance.
Suzanne: Yeah! Yeah.
Sarah: Like, we need to tag that more obviously.
Suzanne: Mm-hmm. I mean, there’s, like, a whole bunch of cowboy romance. Why can’t there be nerd romance, right? Like a –
Sarah: I agree.
Suzanne: Mm-hmm.
Matt: Yeah. Video game programmers, comic writers, you know, it’s all there. So, I actually started Immortals After Dark, and –
Suzanne: Yeah, the Kresley Cole series, which I read like candy when it was coming out. They, they redid all the covers, and so they’re all, like, a buck ninety-nine at various points –
Sarah: Yes.
Suzanne: – this year, and I bought them all and just kind of, like, zoomed right through the whole, like, fifteen books that were out?
Matt: And I actually had a tough time with those.
Sarah: Oh, how come?
Matt: I don’t want my criticisms to, to come off as a criticism of, of, if that’s what you like, I think, go for it, you know, kind of thing?
Sarah: Oh, that’s how we are, so no worries.
Matt: But as, reading the Immortals After Dark series, there are some serious consent issues, and I can definitely see, if you’re a teenage boy, coming out of those with the complete wrong idea of what is socially acceptable.
Sarah: Consent is something that is – forgive the terminology – played with a lot in romance, and varying degrees of consent are explored pretty much in every subgenre.
Suzanne: Yeah. Well, and I was mentioning that, like in paranormal, especially with the whole fated mate trope –
Sarah: Yeah.
Suzanne: – consent, the, the borders are, are pushed a lot, because, like, they’re meant to be together, and so, like, you know, in this case, I think it was, like, the werewolf, right? So it was like, Lachlain was like, well, she’s my mate. She doesn’t know it yet, but she’s going to love me, and we’re going to be together forever, and so –
Sarah: And she’s like, oh, my God, go away! [Laughs]
Suzanne: Well –
Matt: Right. She actually com-, threatens to commit suicide in, like, the first fifty pages.
Suzanne: Right, right.
Matt: Like, that’s, yeah.
Suzanne: And he’s like, no, no, no, I’ve waited for you for five hundred years, or whatever, so you can’t die. And –
Sarah: Right.
Suzanne: – and she’s like, ooh, who the hell are you, get away, kind of a thing, yeah. So, but coming from – I don’t know, maybe it’s because I’d already read a bunch of paranormal or something? It wasn’t, like, as jarring to me? So that’s, that’s been really interesting, like, to have Matt and me reading the same books, is that he picks things up from, you know, from the male gaze, and these books are clearly written, you know, from the female gaze, for women –
Sarah: Right.
Suzanne: – and so on, so, like, I had never thought, well, what if a teenage boy read this and thought, if I keep following her around and keep pursuing her and keep pushing her a little bit further, then eventually she’ll love me. Like – ‘cause that is kind of a horrible message for a guy to pick up on, right? Like –
Sarah: And that message is everywhere. It’s not just in romance.
Matt: Right, and that –
Suzanne: Right!
Matt: – and that’s the thing for me is that I was thinking, it’s not just that, that this is a message that a teenage boy could pick up, it’s, it’s a message that would be reinforced.
Suzanne: Right.
Sarah: Oh, yeah, it’s already out there.
Matt and Suzanne: Yeah.
Sarah: And it’s weird, you know, if I am reading – I think a lot, I think a lot like you, Suzanne. If I’m reading paranormal, I’m accustomed to those extremely alpha, thuddy-stomping –
Suzanne: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – brooding, boundary-smooshing characters. I sort of –
Suzanne: Yep.
Sarah: – come to expect them. I don’t run into a whole lot of beta males in older paranormals, and one of the things that I find fascinating about some of the paranormals that are starting to be written now is that you see a lot of them based on female friendships and female collections of, of creatures or, or witches or whatever, and so there’re a lot more women in the stories that I’ve read that have been published in the last year, for example, where the women are like, yeah, no. Please fuck off.
Matt: [Laughs]
Sarah: I’ll kill you. I will rip your face off. Really! No.
Suzanne: Right, yeah.
Sarah: I will seriously fuck up your life. Go away.
Suzanne: Well, and that’s one of the things that I really, like, I kind of liked about Kresley Cole’s books is that, like, the Valkyries, they real-, they –
Sarah: Oh, they’re great! [Laughs]
Suzanne: They’re kickass, yeah! And they put the dudes through a lot, like, you know –
Sarah: Oh, they rip faces off.
Suzanne: Whenever the one, like, gets trapped in, like, the lava pit or whatever for however long –
Sarah: Yep.
Suzanne: – ‘til the next guy comes – yeah. I mean, they go through hell, and I think, I was trying to remember, and I think, I was like, well, it might just be that this book particularly is trouble-, troublesome, you know, but at the same time, if, if you get that kind of sour taste in your mouth from the first book in a series, you just kind of don’t want to continue, and I totally respect that, so.
Sarah: There’s lots more, don’t worry.
Matt: Well, and you –
Suzanne: Exactly! It’s not that there’s a shortage of other books
Matt: And you warned me that there consent issues in –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Suzanne: Yes.
Matt: – the first book –
Sarah: Surprise!
Matt: – in, in the book zero novella, and I read that, and to me –
Sarah: Oh, that’s The Warlord Wants Forever.
Suzanne and Matt: Yeah.
Matt: To me, in that one, there was so much buildup of, like, these two characters are really, really, really sexually attracted to each other, so when the consent issues came into play for that one, I thought, oh, this is, this is interesting, this pushes some boundaries, this is, you know –
Sarah: Okay, I’m, I’m here, I understand.
Matt: – and, and that was the thing for the, for book one that got me, was that there was no, there was none of this, this pre-existing buildup? It was just straight-up –
Suzanne: Right, ‘cause she’s so sheltered, the heroine is so sheltered in that book that it’s like she’s scared of him the whole time –
Sarah: Right.
Suzanne: – and that’s definitely a different, a different kind of a thing.
Sarah: And that’s a very different trope. Very different.
Matt and Suzanne: Yeah.
Sarah: Suzanne, originally you had asked, when you emailed me, if there are other couples who read romance, which is why I wanted to have Elyse and Rich on the call as well, because yes, they do all the time! And unfortunately for poor Rich, Elyse and I have in-, in-, introduced him to several series that (a) are not finished and (b) are, like, a year or two between books, and so we’re horrible human beings. So, Rich, how did you get introduced to romance? Was it through Elyse?
Rich: I, yeah, definitely through Elyse. The, the sheer number of books that my wife has suggested to me over the years is, is just staggering. No, she reads, like, I cannot explain how fast, but the other thing that’s really cool is I met her at a bookstore.
Sarah: Which is, like, the best meet-cute ever.
Elyse: Isn’t that –
Rich: Isn’t it?
Elyse: – isn’t that adorable? So nauseating.
Rich: Yeah.
Sarah: So gross.
Rich: [Laughs] Isn’t it, though? Okay. Yeah, I just –
Sarah: Going to hurl. [Laughs]
Rich: So, the, the thing with Elyse is she will often say things like, I think you’ll like this book and then just give me a book to read, and it’s not that she doesn’t tell me sometimes what the book would be classified as so much as she realizes that I don’t necessarily have to have, you know, the, the, this is just a sci-fi book, or this is just a, a romance book, or this is just, you know, I, the, the story, the characters, and, and the overall plot are the things that really pull me into a book, and – I’m trying to think, the, I’m trying to remember the first – technically, I suppose the first one that would be a romance that we read was Pride and Prejudice.
Elyse: Yeah, we did a, when we were first dating, we each read the other person’s favorite book, so I had him –
Rich: Supposedly.
Elyse: Supposedly. So I –
Sarah: I really am going to hurl.
Elyse: – I read yours; I just didn’t read the whole series. So I read The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, and he read – well, actually listened to on audio – Pride and Prejudice, and I would get text messages from him at work like, you know, Mrs. Bennett’s a bitch! Jesus! You know.
[Laughter]
Elyse: So that was probably the first romance, and then Rich and I read a lot together because he, well, we used to commute to work together, and we were in the car probably, like, an hour and a half a day, and so I would just read out loud while he drove, and we’ve kind of, now we don’t commute together anymore, but we’ve kind of stuck with that tradition where I read out loud to him sometimes, and we would kind of go back and forth between picking the book. Like, he would pick a book, and then I would pick a book, so of course I read some romance, and I think the only one you really didn’t like was a Regency, and I felt like maybe there wasn’t enough context for you in that, ‘cause they’re so, with, with the Regency I forget that people who aren’t really versant in that genre, there’re so many social rules and unspoken things that are going on behind the scenes that if you’ve never read a book like that before you’re kind of like, well, what, I don’t understand what’s going on here.
Rich: Yeah, there, there was –
Sarah: Why is she wigging out? [Laughs]
Rich: Yeah, what, there was a lot of, like, well, okay, why, that – why is he being a jerk? I don’t understand this. You know, it’s like the, the, the whole, you know, proper thing. Like the, the, the issues where, like, Mr. Darcy was cold and aloof, and that was supposed to be attractive, and I’m like, what?
[Laughter]
Rich: So all I had to do was be a jerk to get a girl? That was weird! Okay.
Elyse: No, you have to be a jerk and have ten thousand –
Rich: Oh, that’s right!
Elyse: – pounds a year, yeah.
Rich: Yes.
Elyse: No, that’s –
Rich: Yes, yes.
Suzanne: And look handsome.
Elyse: And handsome, right.
Sarah: And also, the problem with Mr. Darcy was that, as RedHeadedGirl put it, he didn’t know how to person, and so –
Rich: [Laughs]
Sarah: – he is so socially uncomfortable – although, although –
Rich: Yes.
Sarah: – the degree to which that character in real life at that time would have been able to sustain his social status being that unable to person is kind of limited. Like, that’s sort of a huge suspension of belief, because you, you run a whole lot of things, you’ve got a whole lot of money and a whole lot of status. You’ve got to figure out small talk, buddy, come on. Just come up with three questions that you’re always going to ask, dance two dances, grab some punch, hit the door, you’re good! [Laughs]
Rich: I think, I think some of it was just, like, you know, you’re the wealthy guy, everybody wants to be your friend, so everyone just, like, okay, so we’re going to ask him a question; that failed. All right, well, we’re, we’re still going to invite him to the next thing.
Sarah: Yes. Yeah.
Rich: So –
Sarah: Other people are person-ing at me! Ugh!
Rich: Yeah. One of, one of the things that, like, I find very helpful to me is I listen to a lot of audiobooks.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Rich: I’m dyslexic, so I read very, very slowly. It’s not that I don’t enjoy reading. I love reading. The, the sheer quantity of books that our house is stacked with, definitely I love reading books, but it’s easier for me to listen –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Rich: – because it, it goes faster. So, like, a lot of times I’ll, I’ll get, like, audiobooks, and then I’ll try to, you know, find other ones similar to that, and like, I was looking through my Audible account, and like, the first, like, true romance book that I think I found on there was The Seduction of Phaeton Black by, what’s her name –
Sarah: Oh, my goodness! That’s an older one!
Elyse: Well, we share –
Rich: Jillian, Jillian Stone.
Elyse: Yeah, we share an Audible account, so a lot of times I’ll buy stuff that’s on sale or that I want to listen to, and then –
Sarah: Right.
Elyse: – because we share the account, you know, he’ll, he’ll listen to it too, so –
Sarah: Speaking of consent issues, I had to stop reading that book because there’s a big old consent problem in, like, the first two chapters.
Rich: Yeah, that was –
Elyse: I don’t think I ever read that one, to be honest.
Rich: – that, that, there, there is some stuff in there, there, where you’re like –
Sarah: What?! Yeah.
Rich: – and, and I, I don’t know if, if Matt runs into this problem or not, but you’re reading it and you’re like, uh, I don’t think that’s okay.
Matt: Yeah.
Rich: And, and then, like, the women –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Rich: – and then the women are okay with it, or –
Sarah: Oh, yeah.
Rich: – or just somehow that’s, that whole part gets overlooked, and, and it just makes me feel like, um, I’m, uh, I’m, uh –
Sarah: Yeah.
Rich: – not totally fine with this.
Sarah: Am I on the wrong planet where this is okay?
Matt: Yeah.
Sarah: And in Phaeton Black, if I remember what’s, if I remember correctly, and it’s been a while since I stopped reading the book because the scene bugged the shit out of me, was that the hero is on the run from someone, and he’s trying to hide from somebody, so he literally, physically picks up a hooker who’s, like, just, you know, standing on the side of the road, and she agrees to pretend to make out with him to provide cover, so he goes ahead, and he penetrates her, and she’s like, I, what, what are you doing? I didn’t say okay! And it was, and it –
Rich: Oh, yeah, yeah, but if, I, I think the thing – she wasn’t actually a hooker.
Sarah: She wasn’t? Is, he thought she was and she wasn’t?
Rich: No. She, yeah, and, and that was the part that sort of –
Sarah: Oh, great. I had stopped –
Rich: – that’s the part that sort of wigged me out, ‘cause –
Sarah: Yeah. It, I –
Rich: – her character’s actually one of the ones I really liked in the book, and that’s why every once in a while I keep looking back to see if there’s a next one, ‘cause it sort of leads, at the end it leaves you with the idea that they’re going to continue.
Sarah: Mm-hmm. I couldn’t get past that.
Elyse: Wait, wait, are you guys, are you guys saying you’ve never accidentally penetrated someone that you thought was a hooker before? That’s just me?
[Laughter]
Matt: I can say I’ve never done that.
Rich: Yeah, okay. I’m going – so, okay, the, the two guys, and really, we’re, we’re just looking for Suzanne to figure out the, the tiebreaker here.
Sarah: Yeah, exactly.
Elyse: Well, I think, I think some of the issues that the guys have with consent is because you’re – which it’s totally valid, by the way –
Sarah: Oh, totally.
Elyse: – you’re coming into the genre later than, you know, like, I, I don’t know how long Suzanne’s been reading romance, but I’ve been reading romance for about twenty years and –
Sarah: Oh, there’re lots of consent problems back then! [Laughs]
Elyse: Yeah, so back, back, the books that were being published in the ‘70s and ‘80s, it was –
Sarah: Oh, they were rapetastic.
Elyse: Yeah, it was still not okay for a woman to have sexual agency or to want to have sex, so it was forced seduction, where essentially, I mean, there, there’s no bones about it, it was rape. But as long as she, even though she was saying no, she was really enjoying it, therefore it was okay, and that was the only way that you could depict a woman enjoying herself sexually, because if she consented to it, well then she was a whore. So I think when you come from reading romance for a really long time and you read some of that stuff, it’s less problematic by comparison? Like, when I think back to some of the Johanna Lindseys that I read now, I’m like, oh, my God.
Sarah: Oh, it was many layers of problematic.
Elyse: Yes.
Sarah: Like nine or ten. And plus, one of the things that is true for women who are choosing to read a romance is that once we’ve identified – and it’s not just women; I should not make this a gendered consideration – so, people who are sitting down to read a romance novel, once the hero and the heroine have been identified, usually by the cover copy –
[Laughter]
Sarah: – you meet them on, like, page three, then that’s the hero and heroine, and because it’s a romance, you know they’re going to get, get, get together in the end. For many readers, when a romance fails, like for me with this particular book, I didn’t want them to have a happy ending. I wanted her to stay way the fuck away from him, so I was not, I was not on board for their story, and a really long time ago, I think it was, like, five or six years ago, Robin at Dear Author wrote a very long essay about how the reader consents on behalf of the heroine. And, and the hero, ‘cause there’re more and more stories from the hero’s point of view, but the reader is consenting on behalf of the character, so if the reader’s on board, that’s the hero, that’s the heroine, they can go to Bone Town, it’s totally great, it’s all going to work out, they’re going to get married, it’s going to be wonderful, have lots of little werepuppies, it’s going to be wonderful –
Somebody: [Laughs]
Sarah: – that, the, the, you know, the, the things that happen that push the boundaries of consent are going to be okay with some readers who are a hundred percent on board with what’s happening and not going to work for readers who don’t consent, who don’t have enough of a reason to agree that this is okay, and that boundary is in different places for different readers, so I mean, I imagine if, when this podcast airs, I will hear from somebody who’ll be like, oh, my God, no, you have to go back. I love that book, it’s incredible, just, you have to keep going! For that person, it totally worked. For me, not so much.
Elyse: Well, and I mean, speaking of problematic, I mean, to put it in perspective, one of the first romances I ever read, I don’t remember the title, I don’t remember the author, I found it, like, in the back corner of the library –
Sarah: Uh-oh.
Elyse: – and, and the hero was Native American, and racist, sexist, I mean, you just name it, it was super troubling.
Sarah: Suzanne, what were you going to say?
Suzanne: I was going to say that it, it seems to me, like, the, the longer in the book they wait to actually have sex, the less chance there’s going to be a whole bunch of consent issues.
Sarah: It’s so true.
Suzanne: Yeah, so it’s, it’s like, okay, if in the first chapter something happens then, like, to me, that’s, like, okay, so this is the horrible thing that happened to her, and now she’s going to find her nice beta who, like, takes, you know, helps her emotionally recover and realize that not all men are horrible. But that’s, but, but when it’s the, the guy that raped her that we’re trying to be convinced, you know, like, okay, he’s actually going to be the love of her life, then it becomes –
Sarah: Okay, Luke and Laura.
[Laughter]
Rich: Sorry.
Matt: So this is, this is Matt, and it’s interesting what, what Sarah mentioned about the reader consenting on behalf of the heroine, and I wonder if Richard and I, being guys, have difficulty producing that consent in our minds?
Sarah: It’s possible!
Matt: Which, which may be why those issues wig us out more.
Rich: Here’s a question for you, Matt: when you first started reading this kind of stuff and you ran up against those, did you have a moment where you’re like, okay, I guess this is how they go? And just, just sort of went with it? Or, or was it like, um, I have questions, and we really need to talk before this goes farther?
Matt: Um, yes.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Short answer: uh-huh.
Suzanne: I had warned him in advance, though. Like, so, with Level Up, there’s really, there are no consent issues in that. I, at least not to my per- No?
Matt: Not as far as I can tell.
Suzanne: Okay. But, so, when I gave him the paranormal series I was like, okay, so here’s, this is going to bug you a little bit, this part here. So I had already kind of warned him, so I think he was expecting it with –
Matt: Well, and again, it wasn’t the first one, it was the second one that got me –
Suzanne: Right.
Matt: – and that’s where I – like, the first one, I kind of, like, rolled with it –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Matt: – and it was like, I would be, definitely be interested in talking with Suzanne about this later –
Sarah: Yep.
Matt: – to understand sort of what’s going on here. And it was the second one where we, we talked about it, but I, I, we agreed that –
Suzanne: Yeah.
Matt: – I just was not going to be able to go further in that book.
Suzanne: Right. ‘Cause I was like, I was coming from the perspective of having not only finished the book but then, like, read further in the series –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Suzanne: – and I was like, no! She totally kicks ass, and if you just read a few more chapters –
Rich: [Laughs]
Suzanne: – she goes through this thing where she’s like, she is, like, the baddest badass ever, and she makes him look like nothing in comparison, and Matt was like, no, I just can’t keep going, and, and –
Sarah: Yep. Everyone’s boundary’s in a different place.
Suzanne: Yep.
Sarah: So when you guys pick a romance that you’re going to read together, do you guys, do, do each of you gravitate towards the same thing, or do you pick a book and think, okay, I know that, I know my spouse is going to dig this. Like, I knew, Elyse, that I, I knew Rich would dig the Crows series.
Elyse: Yeah.
Sarah: And it’s so good, you – oh, gosh, Suzanne, have you read these?
Suzanne: Well, I haven’t – I bought the first one ‘cause it was on sale and ‘cause of your –
Sarah: God, I love this series so much, and now I’m just like, oh, crap! What if they don’t like it?! Okay, seriously, I love it.
Suzanne: Yeah, so I haven’t read it yet, but when I do I’m, I’m sure to give it to Matt.
Matt: I think the closest we’ve come to reading something at the same time – ‘cause for the most part I’ve just sort of taken my recommendations from Suzanne –
Suzanne: Right.
Matt: I haven’t, I haven’t, I have not, I have not graduated yet to the point where I, where I go out and, and –
Sarah: Find your own?
Matt: – find stuff. I think the closest we’ve come to reading the same thing at the same time is the Christina Lauren stuff –
Suzanne: Mm.
Matt: – because I actually read – I can’t remember the titles of books –
Suzanne: Dark Wild Night.
Matt: Dark Wild Night, yeah.
Suzanne: You, you read the third –
Matt: – before you did.
Suzanne: Right. So I was reading the second book while he was reading the third book. That’s basically how that happened, and he only read the third book.
Matt: Yeah.
Suzanne: But then I read – anyway. Yeah. But another thing I would say is that we, if, I don’t know if you would qualify this as romance, I don’t know if the author does, but the, the steampunk series there with, with, oh, God, where she touches them and they stop being, like, a werewolf or a vampire or whatever?
Matt: Oh –
Suzanne: Um –
Matt: – yes, Gail Carriger.
Suzanne: Yeah, yeah.
Matt: The, the Parasol Protectorate.
Suzanne: Yes.
Matt: We read those at the same time.
Suzanne: Yeah, and they’re, I would call them kind of like a play on what, they’re, like, kind of Victorian romance-y-ish, right? Yeah?
Sarah: There are a lot of genres being played with in those books.
Suzanne: Yes.
Matt: So many.
Suzanne: Yes. So we read them together –
Matt: Yes.
Suzanne: – all of them, and –
Sarah: They’re very fun!
Suzanne: They are! Yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
Suzanne: And that’s actually, the, like, series about the daughter?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Suzanne: So the first, is it, it’s called Prudence, and that was actually the book that was in the Amazon box that started this whole thing, and I was like, hey!
Matt: Yes, yes!
Suzanne: So, but yeah, so we read that series together, and yeah, that definitely has romantic elements.
Matt: Yeah. And so much fun.
Suzanne: And, and yeah. All the fun.
Elyse: I think for us it’s been, well, a lot of it is I just buy books, and then I’m like, hey, you would like this, or I’d buy it on audio for myself, and then Rich tries it out ‘cause I tell him he would like it, but I remember when we were first, first dating, he told me about a book he really liked. Was that the Dragon Prince? I’m trying to remember the title.
Rich: Yeah, Melanie Rawn’s Dragon Prince.
Elyse: And so I read it, and it has this real-, it, it’s, it’s an epic fantasy book, but it has a really substantial romance arc in it and other things –
Sarah: You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you know about a romance that has the word dragon in it and you didn’t tell me? I’m devastated! I am crushed. Okay, go ahead. I’ll speak with you about this later.
Elyse: Okay, but, okay, spoilers. Spoilers, spoilers. It does not have a happy ending, though, Sarah.
Sarah: Ugh, fine. Never mind, I take it back.
Rich: Well, no. No, it’s a trilogy, so she’ll be good for the first couple books.
Elyse: Okay, just don’t read any of the other books, yeah.
Suzanne: [Laughs]
Sarah: Just read the first three, okay. All right, then I take back what I said.
Rich: Actually, it’s, it’s, it’s, technically, it’s two trilogies. By the end of the third trilogy you just invest and go, go to, like, Sam’s Club, get the industrial Kleenex pack –
Sarah: No.
Rich: – and, and then, and then you’ll be okay.
Sarah: No, I’ll just stop at the first trilogy, and if there’s not enough, I’ll write my own ending in my head.
Rich: [Laughs]
Elyse: There you go.
Sarah: I’m, I’m not here for Costco. So anyway, I apologize for interrupting you with my extremely deep-felt ire, but go ahead. [Laughs]
Elyse: No, no, I would say between the two of us, actually, Rich is the romantic and I am not, for sure, and, so it was –
Sarah: That’s true; you like entrails.
Rich: Well, I’ll be, I’ll be the one that’s, like, crying, watching a movie, right? And she’ll be over there just knitting away. Just clickety-clackety-clack.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Rich: And then, like, she’ll be totally fine. But then, if we’re watching and, like, the Sarah McLachlan S, SP, er –
Sarah: SPCA.
Elyse: Oh, God.
Sarah: Yeah, the, the animal one.
Rich: Yeah. Yeah, the animal shelter one –
Sarah: Forget it.
Rich: – commercial. I have to hit fast forward for that; otherwise, she will just explode in tears.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Rich: So –
Elyse: Rich and I, we have the relationship where if I’m having a bad day he will, I’ll come home and he’ll be like, I made your favorite meal and poured you a glass of wine and did these three really thoughtful things, and when he’s having a bad day I’m like, I will bring you the severed head of your enemy.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elyse: Right? So – [laughs] – but a lot of movies he likes, he really liked When Harry Met Sally and stuff like that, so I figured this would be kind of an easy transition, and then some of it just comes from osmosis because we have so many books in this house, and I get so many books for Smart Bitches, and they’re actually addressed Elyse at Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and our UPS man is just, like, you can tell he wants to ask, but he’s not –
[Laughter]
Elyse: – he’s not quite there yet. So, I mean, I think the, the books that we predominantly read together are books that have kind of a fantasy element or a crossover, steampunk, or, yeah, mostly steampunk. Like The Seduction of Phaeton Black you read, you read the Bannon & Clare series.
Rich: The Clare and Bannon, yep.
Elyse: Yeah.
Rich: Those are good, but they, they’re weird, ‘cause the, the thing that I don’t understand about those, so, they’re, they’re classified, I guess, as, like, steampunk romance, but there’s really not any naughty bits. It’s all sort of unrequited stuff that just never gets resolved, and most of it is not through the two main characters. It’s Bannon, who’s the, the sorceress Prime, her, like, sort of bodyguard person. That’s where the hot, hot romance, like, wannabe is happening, and the relationship between Bannon and Clare is more of, like, a, a deep, deep friendship type kind of love –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Rich: – not, not like the naughty bits kind of love.
Sarah: Right. I do, I have a recommendation for you, but I, before I go to another question. Did you read Sorcerer to the Crown?
Rich: Mm-mm.
Elyse: No.
Sarah: Okay. It is by Zen Cho. It is a historical – I can’t remember if it’s Victorian or Regency, but it is a fantasy retelling where there’s a whole division of sorcerers who are for the crown, basically, and there’s a sorcerer, there’s, like, a head sorcerer, and the, the current head is the former apprentice of the, the prior Sorcerer Royal, I think is his title, and he’s black and adopted, and nobody wants him around, and there’s this whole side, this whole side area of the fantasy world where women who have magic are, are taught to suppress it. So there’s so much going on, and then of course there’s this one girl who’s like, I’m not going to be suppressed! I’m going to do amazing things! And it’s so intricate, but you would really dig it.
Elyse: I will definitely check that out.
Sarah: Okay. So, Suzanne, when you emailed me originally –
Suzanne: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – one of the things you brought up was the fact that there were questions, many questions. Like –
Suzanne: Yes.
Sarah: – so this is what you wrote: Are all men supposed to be physically massive?
[Laughter]
Sarah: Is it just an archetype? Like, what’s happening here? Are there people, what you asked was, are there people who’ve read with their spouse or men who like to read romance, and the ways in which reading something that is clearly from the female gaze makes for a completely different experience if you are not normally deploying that gaze. I am really curious about these questions.
Suzanne: I, I was trying, when Matt and I were talking about this, I was trying to put myself in his shoes and thinking about, like, okay, so, as women, our entire lives, we see depictions of the female ideal in all media all the time, right? So you know you’re supposed to be thin, you’re supposed to be all of these attributes: large breasts, etc. So as a woman you know, I mean, what, except for, like one percent of the population, you know that you are not the ideal. And I can’t speak for men, but I feel like it’s probably not pushed in their faces constantly quite so much as it is with us? But in romance novels, it really is. Like, all the dudes are jacked.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Suzanne: Like – right?
Sarah: Yes. Yes! Even when it was historically accurate for them to be, like, sixty or seventy pounds overweight.
Suzanne: Right! Well, and, like, all these dudes in, in the Regency are, like, tan? Like, how the hell is that happening? Like, they, they’re whole –
Sarah: Ye Olde Tanning Salon.
Elyse: Or, or they miraculously have muscular thighs ‘cause they go horseback riding once a day, right?
Suzanne: Right, right.
Elyse: And you’re like, bullshit.
Suzanne: [Laughs]
Elyse: Bullshit on your muscular thighs.
Suzanne: That also gives them washboard abs. I don’t know how that happens, but yeah.
Matt: Well, it’s, it’s washboard abs that, if it’s a, if it’s a modern romance, it’s washboard abs that their T-shirt shows off every time.
Suzanne: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Matt: I’ve noticed that.
Elyse: Well, you know what, though, as, as someone who was raised Catholic, you know, Jesus always had washboard abs, and as an adult now looking up, I’m questioning that as well. You know?
[Laughter]
Elyse: Like, He’s dying on the cross, but He’s got washboard abs.
Suzanne: Well –
Elyse: What the fuck is going on?
Suzanne: I think they just always assumed that Jesus was malnourished from, you know, wandering about and, and whatnot, and so His washboards abs were really just because, like, He was so skinny that you could see that He had muscles.
Rich: Hey, He knew people, He knew people that could fish.
Matt: Right
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elyse: Ohhh –
Suzanne: So, okay, so, yeah. They’re not, they’re all jacked. They’re also all really tall and have broad shoulders and narrow hips.
Sarah: Yep.
Suzanne: Their facial features are all, you know, like, this, the whatever jaw and the proud nose, and just the way that, that people are described, right? And so Matt was like, are, are all romance heroes tall and built? And I was like, yeah. Yeah, they are.
Matt: They’re si-, they’re, they’re also simultaneously cap- – and I think this is something we’ve talked about – they’re, they’re capable of beating the living crap out of someone and being completely protective and nurturing.
Sarah: Yep.
Elyse: And I’m just speculating here, ‘cause there are more and more contemporaries now that feature a beta hero who is not necessarily super muscular.
Sarah: Yay!
Elyse: They tend to be fit. I haven’t read any romance novels with any heroes who are overweight yet, but they’re not necessarily that big, kind of Fabio look, and I think a lot of that is a holdover from the fact that romance novels, back in the day, were marketed towards women by men, and men assumed, well, let’s just Fabio on the cover wearing, like, a loincloth –
Suzanne: Mm-hmm.
Elyse: – and, like, his mullet blowing in the wind.
Suzanne: Right.
Elyse: Women, they’re just going to fall all over themselves, you know.
Matt: It’s –
Elyse: And, and so I think some of it is, is a holdover to, you know, kind of what we think women want, and I think some of it is just kind of part of, it depends on what you’re reading, so if you’re reading a historical, depending on when it takes place, or a supernatural romance, the heroes tend to be, like, much more buff and muscular, but in contemporaries I think you have a little more play with the body type, although I have yet to read a romance novel where a hero has a teeny penis. Like, that hasn’t happened yet.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Oh, no, it needs to be able to be deployed as a sundial in an emergency.
Suzanne: Yep.
Elyse: Right.
Suzanne: So that was another thing that came up – [laughs] – you know, and, and it sort of, like, like, do, are, are they all going to talk about his, his massive member all the time? It’s like, yeah, I mean –
Sarah: Pretty much.
Elyse: Yep. And it’s like, it’s like –
Suzanne: – some, some of them –
Elyse: – velvet-covered steel every time.
Suzanne: Yes! And it’s, it’s hot, too. Yeah, like, if, there’s the same adjectives all the time, yeah.
Elyse: Yep.
Rich: See – no –
Suzanne: One of the things that’s appreciated about Susanna Kearsley’s novels is that she manages to make you fall in love with the hero without actually describing him very much physically. Like –
Sarah: Oh, gosh, yes! It’s true!
Suzanne: And it’s, like, it’s, I don’t know how she does it, but, like, like, your heart might break a little bit, and you don’t even know what the guy looks like really, you know? And, and it’s, you can put whoever you want in there; it’s kind of great.
Elyse: ‘Cause I think, Rich asked me this too when he was reading the Crows series. He sent me a text while I was at work. Why – you know, these books are really about these women – why are these dudes on the covers? Like, it’s dude in a hoodie. What the fuck does that have to do with anything that’s going on here? And I was like, well, ‘cause that’s what marketing thinks women want to look at.
Suzanne: And actually, I was, I really like – okay, so the covers in historicals where, like, there’s just a lady on the front –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Suzanne: – and she’s wearing, you know, a really nice dress or something, and maybe you turn to the, like, inner cover and you get to see the couple together, but –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Suzanne: – I really prefer that it’s just the heroine, because then, you know, you can take the book out with you and people aren’t like, oh, what smut is she reading? You know? And, because, yeah, there’re some sexy scenes, but a lot of them, like, the, the cover does not represent what’s inside at all.
Sarah: Nope, and the clinch is this sort of cross-the-room signal, like, yo, hey! Romance, right here, and unfortunately, fortunately for, for readers, I think the signaling of what kind of book a book is growing to encompass other images that still signal romance but don’t rely on, you know, acres of bronzed mantitty with large, strange, thumb-shaped nipples – it’s very odd.
[Laughter]
Elyse: Looking in two different directions.
Sarah: Yes! They’re, they’re always a little cross-eyed; there’s a little problem there.
Elyse: Well, and I think I read, when I read romance novels, regardless of what the dude on the cover looks like, typically who I imagine in my head is very different, and it depends on how descriptive the author is and how good they are at establishing what he looks like, but, like, personally I cannot, I, I’m, I’m weirded out by dudes with no body hair, right?
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elyse: So whenever they describe, whenever they describe the hero as, like, being super smooth, I’m like, why? What’s he doing? You know –
Suzanne: Yeah, or, or he –
Sarah: Ye Olde Wax.
Elyse: No hair!
Sarah: It’s right next door to Ye Olde Tanning Salon and Ye Olde Thighmaster. Come on!
Elyse: Right.
Matt: Well, but you know what, we, we laugh a lot about where do they find razors on abandoned islands –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Matt: – to shave armpits. Like, when-, whenever we watch Arrow we’re like, look, all of these women on the abandoned island still manage to shave everything.
Suzanne: Yes.
Sarah: Oh, in the zombie apocalypse there’s a really good underarm razor –
Suzanne: Yeah, yeah.
Sarah: – for every single woman.
Rich: Also, for guys, for guys in that situation –
Suzanne: Yeah, like, during The Hunger Games –
Sarah: Yeah.
Rich: – how, how is it that, like, the, the beard part under the chin disappears all the time?
Matt: [Laughs]
Suzanne: Right.
Rich: Like, that’s the one part of a beard I can’t stand, so that’s, that’s the area I always shave.
Sarah: What, you mean like the neck part? Or right under the –
Rich: Yeah, the neck part!
Sarah: Neck beard, yeah.
Rich: How is that always, you know, nicely trimmed, but, like, the beard gets super bushy?
Sarah: Yeah, well, you know. Body hair is not something we’re generally comfortable with, apparently.
[Laughter]
Matt: So, like, this, I guess, I guess the, the, the men in, who, who are strangely hairless, I guess that’s just fair turnabout on, on what –
Suzanne: Yeah.
Sarah: All the hairless women.
Suzanne: Yeah.
Matt: Exactly.
Sarah: Every now and again I’ll do an advertisement design for someone and they’ll send me the extremely high-res version of the cover photograph that they based their cover on, and I can tell you at least eighty percent of the time, as I zoom in to try to isolate different parts of the picture, I will notice that there is visible stubble on the male model. Like, and it’s on his chest. It’s not on his face.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Like, his, his, his man pelt is growing back, it’s a substantial pelt, it clearly was not waxed, and I’m just, like, oh, oh, ohhh! That just looks even worse! Could you just have chest hair? Chest hair’s okay! Chest hair’s good.
Suzanne: It really –
Elyse: Yeah. I –
Suzanne: not look like you’re fourteen.
Rich: So, like –
Sarah: I know, right?
Rich: – one of the comments Elyse made earlier was about that text I sent her, and, and the thing that just blew my mind when I was listening to the book is the Crows are so fun and so fabulous that I didn’t understand why, why Kera wasn’t on the cover.
Sarah: Yep.
Elyse: With Brodie, and Brodie would have, like, a severed hand in his mouth.
Sarah: Oh, totally!
Rich: Yeah, exactly!
Sarah: No, the cover is some ripped guy in a hoodie.
Rich: Yeah, and I’m like, I’m, I’m trying to figure out, okay, if there, there’s, like, a few guys in the background, you know, out-, outside of her paramour in it, but I’m like, so, who’s that supposed to be again?
Sarah: Yep.
Rich: As opposed to, like, any of the major characters that the story follows through, through the whole story.
Sarah: It’s –
Rich: You know, the men are like a secondary character in that.
Sarah: It’s weird, that dude in the hoodie on the cover does not indicate the degree of women that are present in the stories.
Elyse: Well, I have a theory, because that particular dude in the hoodie has been on the cover of many a book?
Sarah: Oh, yes.
Elyse: And I think, like, it’s a, it’s like a Ring situation where it’s some kind of paranormal haunting where he just appears –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elyse: – like, on the romance covers. No one can stop him.
Sarah: He’s just there.
Elyse: He’s just there.
Sarah: [Laughs] Well –
Rich: Well, if –
Matt: Suzanne, Suzanne looked up the cover for me, and, and I see exactly what you’re talking about.
Sarah: Yeah, it’s a guy in a white hoodie, right?
Matt: Uh-huh.
Sarah: Part of –
Rich: Well, that’s the second one.
Sarah: Yeah, so, no –
Rich: The Undoing is the, the white –
Sarah: – the, the first, the – yes.
Elyse: The first one has Adam Lambert on it, I think.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Well, I can tell you my theory as to why there’s a dude on the cover of a book that’s very much about women, and that is that women are taught to be extremely harsh critics of one another, and there’re some theories about whether people who identify as female, when they are reading a romance, if they envision themselves as the heroine, and then they need to have as little barrier between themselves and the heroine as possible so that they can symbiotically take her place in the story or if they have to be able relate to her deeply in order to appreciate the story and that the level of connection between the reader as a female and the heroine as a female is, is subject to a lot of discussion, ‘cause it’s not how I read, but I talk to other readers, and it’s exactly how they perceive the books. But because women are such harsh critics of one another, and we’re taught to be that way, it’s a lot easier to put a hot guy in a hoodie on the cover of a book and communicate what it is and grab the, grab the female reader, even though I, I have nothing of interest, I find nothing of interest in that cover. I don’t like built guys, I don’t like shaved chests, I, I, I have no strong feelings about hoodies, but, like, that does not do it for me. But because, if you just put a woman on the cover with, you know, Brodie and a severed hand in his mouth, that might be more likely to alienate female readers because we are more critical of each other than we are identify, identifying with one another, whereas, with the women in the historicals with the dresses, I’m all about that. I love those images.
Suzanne: Right.
Elyse: I wonder if there’s almost –
Rich: So, so if we swapped, if we swapped the hand for a ball, would that, would that work then?
Sarah: Maybe if it’s, like, a –
Elyse: Only if Jill Shalvis wrote it.
Sarah: [Laughs] Well, that’s the, there’re a lot of dogs on covers, ‘cause dogs, dogs on covers sell.
Rich: Yeah! That’s another thing I’ve said.
Sarah: Mysteries have cats, and romances have dogs. Maybe, maybe Brodie, if he were on the cover, would have, like, a grenade in his mouth.
Elyse: I’d read the shit out of that.
Rich: Technically, Brodie’s a she.
Sarah: That’s right! Brodie is a girl. Yeah, that’s right, I forgot.
Rich: Brodie’s a girl.
Sarah: Brodie Hawaii, you put that severed head down right now. You represent all pit bulls.
Rich: [Laughs]
Elyse: I, I wonder sometimes –
Rich: You’re a role model!
Elyse: [Laughs] I wonder sometimes if it’s a little bit of, it’s a little bit coded because –
Sarah: Oh, totally.
Elyse: – the books that have men on the cover, it’s just the, just the hero or the hero and the heroine, there’s an implication that, like, there is sex within this book somewhere. You will find sex. But if you –
Sarah: How many nipples are there? That’s how many sex scenes times ten. [Laughs]
Elyse: Right. But if you look at, like, inspirational romance or historical romance where, or more historical fiction with, like, a romantic element, where there’s less sex, very often it is a single female on the cover.
Sarah: And she’s doing something.
Elyse: Looking off into the distance or something like that, yeah. So –
Sarah: Unless it’s one of the new mysteries, in which case she’s probably opening a door. With ruffles. With a lot of ruffles.
Rich: [Laughs] I, I have a question.
Sarah: Yes?
Rich: I’m, I’m very visual when I read.
Sarah: Mm-hmm?
Rich: So a lot of times I will really be disturbed if the person on the cover –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Rich: – doesn’t match the character.
Sarah: Welcome to romance.
Rich: Do either, do any of you guys have that issue where you’re, where you’re looking at it and you’re like, that just, it, it, it’s not working. Those two are not the same person, but they’re supposed to be.
[Chorus of agreement]
Elyse: Because, I think ‘cause I read so many eBooks now, I don’t really look at the covers anymore as much.
Suzanne: Yeah.
Elyse: I know what you’re talking about, where it’s like on the cover she’s got red hair and in the book she’s a blonde, and you’re like, wait a…minute.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Rich: Yes.
Sarah: Suzanne, is that true for you?
Suzanne: Yeah. Well, I just kind of pretend that the peop-, that the cover doesn’t exist. Like, I, I kind of –
[Laughter]
Sarah: Somewhere an art director is crying. [Laughs]
Suzanne: Oh, yeah, well, the, the cover may attract me to the book, but sometimes the cover also, you know, detracts from the book. Like, someone will have recommended it – like, honestly, based on the cover of that Crows book, I would not have bought it.
Sarah: Oh, me neither! Me neither!
Suzanne: It was you that made me pick it up, you know? Because I was like, this, okay, all the signals on this cover say it’s not the book for me.
Sarah: Yep.
Suzanne: And I used to read a lot of urban fantasy, and I used to work at a bank, and I worked the drive-up window, and so, I mean, you’re not really supposed to be seen, like, with a book, right? You’re not supposed to be seen not working. But my coworkers would see my book that I was reading for lunch or whatever, and they’d be like, oh, you’re reading a sexy book, and make fun of me, but it’s like, no, they just put, all urban fantasy covers are, like, a chick with a sword, and she’s probably in a bra and leather pants.
Sarah: Always the leather pants, because, you know, those are the quietest pants imaginable. You don’t creak or anything.
Elyse: Rich runs into that all the time at work, right?
Suzanne: [Laughs]
Rich: I do!
Elyse: No, seriously.
Rich: Okay, now, this I know will –
Sarah: What, wearing leather pants?
Rich: – this – well, no. This is going to, this is going to be something that will, will drive Sarah nuts, but one of the few things that I do enjoy when I end up working out in the dining room is I get to ask people what they’re reading.
Sarah: Oh, that’s just awesome!
Rich: And it is, it, it, to, to some extent, it, it is so horribly sad when you have a woman that is sitting there reading and you, you come up and you’re like, can I ask you what you’re reading? And, and –
Sarah: Oh, no, nothing.
Rich: – it, it, exactly! It’s the, oh, just, you know, just, just a book. Just, you know –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Rich: And, and you know exactly what it is that they’re reading then. Then it, it’s this social stigma that, that if you read a romance novel it’s, it doesn’t have any value, and that drives me nuts, because –
Sarah: Oh, me too.
Rich: – I was talking to a woman whose husband was making fun of her for reading romance novels. We were chatting for some quite time, and –
Sarah: Dumbass.
Rich: – and, and she’s like, well, you know, my husband makes fun of me for reading these, and I said, oh, really! So what does he read? Oh, he doesn’t. And I’m like, excuse me? He’s, he doesn’t read anything, and he’s making fun of you for reading? That’s, that’s insane! And, and that’s what happens a lot when I ask people, and there’re other people that are just absolutely fantastic, where you’ll ask them, and, you know, they’ll launch into a, a discussion about, you know, the book they’re reading, the hero, the heroines, all that kind of stuff, and those are, like, some of the best exchanges I have with, with customers. So –
Elyse: Well, and then he comes home with, like, note paper in his pocket. He’s like, I heard about these five books today that you would like! Right?
[Laughter]
Suzanne: Some?
Matt: That’s very cool. So –
Suzanne: Go ahead.
Matt: I’m not worried about, honestly, the, the, like, I have not read anything in public because – I’m not worried about the, the cover giving away what I’m reading –
[Pause, laughter]
Matt: – and that would just be embarrassing.
Rich: Let, let me get this straight: so what you’re saying is, most of the time while you’re reading, you sit down.
Matt: Right.
[Laughter]
Suzanne: Yeah!
Rich: Yeah, because, and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll let you know a secret here, Sarah. Certain parts of romance books are difficult for men to read while standing.
[Laughter]
Matt: Yeah, well, see, this is the thing! I, I, I told – so we were just up at Suzanne’s mother’s this weekend –
Suzanne: Mm-hmm.
Matt: – and I almost brought the iPad with me so that I could, I could read the, the Alisha Rai book that I was in the middle of –
Suzanne: Mm-hmm.
Matt: – and, honestly, I decided not to, because I was like, I don’t really want to be at my mother-in-law’s reading this and then have to go say hi to someone.
Sarah: [Laughs] Oh, no!
Elyse: But I do, I remember that comment fairly early on. I, I don’t know if it’s just the Crows series or I don’t know what you were reading, but you were like, these are really sexy books, and it’s like, yep.
Sarah: Surprise!
Matt: Well –
Suzanne: Yep.
Matt: – yeah.
Suzanne: [Laughs]
Rich: Yeah. And, and, and here’s the fun part –
Matt: There’re fringe benefits.
Rich: Oh, yeah, there’s, there’re definitely, definitely bonuses to having your, having your significant other in, into this kind of reading.
Sarah: And not shaming her for reading it.
Rich: Oh, no, not at all!
Sarah: Like, duh! Dumbass.
Rich: Yeah, I know.
Sarah: That guy’s an idiot.
Rich: I know! And that, that still bugs me to this day.
Sarah: [Laughs] Bugs me right now!
Rich: One of the best things my wife got me for a gift, carte blanche, is she got me a little speaker. I can’t remember if it was, oh, I can’t remember which book I was listening to – I was cleaning the bathroom, and because of the water running and everything I had the speaker turned up?
Sarah: [Laughs]
Rich: And then we hit a naughty bit, right? And I remember distinctly standing up in the shower and going are the windows closed?
[Laughter]
Rich: Because we live right next to a park, and that could be a very difficult conversation with somebody. No, Officer, it was a book I was listening to.
Elyse: I’ve, I’ve done the thing where I listen to books on the way to work a lot on audio, and I noticed, like, I was listening to, I think it was a Christian Lauren book, and it was getting really sexy, and I noticed a cop was parked, like, on the side of the highway, and instead of instinctively slowing down like you do to hit the speed limit, I, like, turned the volume down.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Oh, sorry, Officer! No, no, no! No, no, no.
Suzanne: Yeah, so I, right now I’m staying home with our two kids, and we go on, ‘cause it’s summer, we go on pretty long walks every day, plus there’s all the time in the car with them, and if I’m listening to an audiobook, there’s definitely a lot of, like, okay, we’re in the car. Are the kids asleep for this part? You know, and so there’s pausing and stuff. Yeah. It’s not, it’s not so much shame as, like, just being conscious of your surroundings at that point.
Rich: Or you, or I’ll go for a walk, and I’ll be listening to it, and you’re, like, walking down the street, and you feel mildly embarrassed, even though you know absolutely no one else can hear what you’re listening to.
Suzanne: Yep. Yes.
Rich: And you’re like, okay, this – yeah, audiobooks can be of, a bit of a challenge for this genre.
Suzanne: Mm-hmm. The narrator is very, very important.
Sarah: Oh, goodness, yes.
Matt: So I haven’t done any audiobooks yet, and all I’m thinking about is the fact that, that you’ve got to have, you’ve got to apparently have a guy who can pull off, what is it, a growling? And a woman who can pull off purring.
Rich: Yeah –
Sarah: Renee Raudman can do that. She, ‘cause for the Kate Daniels series by Ilona Andrews, Curran, the, the hero will growl, and she, I did an interview with her, and she demonstrated all the different ways that she can create that growl, and I was like, this is amazing!
Suzanne: Huh.
Matt: That’s –
Sarah: So there are some who can totally pull it off.
Suzanne: I’ve actually found the only romance audiobooks that I can listen to are, like, Regencies –
Sarah: Oh, yeah.
Suzanne: – because for whatever reason the, yeah, the British accent makes me feel less self-conscious about listening to the sexytimes. I –
Elyse: There was, there, I read –
Suzanne: [Laughs]
Elyse: – it was, I, I, it was, what’s her name, Stephanie Laurens? Is that it? I’m blanking out.
Sarah: Was, was it the –
Elyse: The big Regency author.
Sarah: Yeah, that’s Stephanie Laurens.
Elyse: Yes.
Sarah: Laurens.
Elyse: I was listening to one of her books on audio that I had gotten from the library, and the narrator –
Sarah: Was it the weeping furnace one?
Elyse: [Snorts] No! It was a, it was the, the, the narrator was an older British dude, and it sounded, I had to stop because it sounded like Alfred from Batman was reading these sex scenes, and not like Michael Caine –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elyse: – not Michael Caine Alfred. Like, I might be there for that. Like nipples on the Batsuit Alfred, whoever that guy was.
Rich: [Laughs]
Elyse: It was very upsetting. Very upsetting.
Sarah: [Laughs] Nipples on the Batsuit Alfred.
Suzanne: Okay, now these ones have all been narrated by women, so –
Sarah: Uh-huh?
Rich: Yeah, actually, actually, the, the, the narrator of a book can make or break a book
Sarah: Oh, it’s totally true.
Rich: There’s, there’s a, a sci-fi series that I really, I, I actually quite enjoy the series, but the narrator is so horrible that it’s impossible to tell who’s talking all the time.
Sarah: Mm-hmm. I have that problem.
Rich: And, and a good narrator, like, you literally don’t need the so-and-such said because you know exactly who’s talking.
Suzanne: Yeah.
Matt: That’s the way I felt when I was listening to the audiobook for Secondhand Souls. Like, everyone was distinct.
Suzanne: Yeah.
Rich: And if, and every once in a while you can find – and I haven’t found a romance book that does this yet, which I think would, is like a horribly missed market – is, you find some that have a male narrator and a female narrator.
Sarah: There are a few.
Elyse: Oh, no, a lot of romances do that, yeah.
Sarah: There’s a couple, yeah.
Rich: I haven’t, I haven’t run across any books yet, so if, if, if you have any suggestions, Sarah, definitely funnel ‘em through Elyse to me.
Sarah: Oh, I will.
Rich: But, but, like, a couple of the books I’ve run across have been fantastic that way, and in, like, probably the best narration ever was the, His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman.
Suzanne: I loved those on audio.
Rich: There was a full cast.
Sarah: Yep.
Rich: And –
Sarah: There’s a couple that are like that. They’re wonderful.
Rich: Yeah. Those are fantastic.
Suzanne: Yeah.
Rich: The, the other thing that I’ve found, like, reading when I’ve, when I’ve read some of the romance, ‘cause Elyse will literally get, like, a box of books, and then they’ll be sitting on, on the table and, as she’s sorting through, and it’s like, well, that one looks interesting, or that one looks – so, I’ll, I’ll start, and I’ll start reading them and stuff like that, and then the problem is she’ll reshelve them, and I’ll lose them sometimes.
[Laughter]
Sarah: You need to part, start putting a sticker on them.
Rich: Yeah, I know! It’s like, okay, save for Richard. Put that one there.
Sarah: [Laughs] I do have a –
Elyse: Well, I remember when –
Sarah: – book recommendation for you, though.
Elyse: Ooh.
Sarah: I do have a recommendation for a historical with a beta hero, and this, this came to mind just because the cover is so ridiculous. The Spymaster’s Lady by Joanna Bourne is a really tremendous book, ‘cause in the way that the, the characters speak in different languages and you can tell in the dialogue when they, when the dialogue is written in English, the way that the words are ordered communicates that that character’s actually speaking in another language at that point is fascinating. But the hero is a spymaster, and so in the book he’s incredibly nondescript. He’s, blends in easily, his face isn’t memorable, he’s very bland and, and easily can put on a disguise, and he’s incredibly brilliant and very, very much a, a sort of, a – what’s the word I’m looking for? Not statistician – strategist! There! Good job, brain – strategist. But the cover, the cover has this guy with this big wad of hair and is pulling his shirt open to show off his chest, and it’s huge, and there’s, like, nineteen abdominal muscles, and they’re all carefully shaded in, and even the author was like, that is not who’s in that book. So if you’re looking for more beta hyster-, historicals, those are my favorites, and I love that one.
So before we sign off, can I ask each of you for one book recommendation, a romance that you’ve really enjoyed that you would want to recommend to other people?
Elyse: No.
Sarah: Okay, fine.
[Laughter]
Elyse: Of course you can!
Sarah: Yeah, I know, it’s harder to just narrow it down to one.
Rich: I, I’ll go first, ‘cause it’s, it’s not a hard one for me at all. I have literally been bugging my coworkers about this and just about anybody in the dining room when I work out there who, who’ll listen. The, the Crows series. You know, The Unleashing –
Sarah: I’m sorry, I cannot support that recommendation at all. Nooo, yes, please! [Laughs]
Rich: I know. I, I know. I know you can’t. It, it’s such a hard one to sell.
Sarah: I know.
Rich: Definitely I would go with Shelly Laurenston.
Sarah: Suzanne, what about you?
Suzanne: One? Okay. So, the one that I love –
Sarah: If it has to be more than one, we can handle it.
Suzanne: Okay. Well, then I’m going to pick two, and that’s kind of, I will try to cap out there. So, Sarah MacLean’s latest, The Rogue Not Taken. I, like, hugged the book after I was done reading it.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Suzanne: Yeah, there’s a certain book scene where, like, basically it’s my whole dream, and, and I said to Matt, like, you need to be this guy. This is who you should be. You need to give me this, all the books.
Elyse: Wait, wait. Was this the scene where he talks about buying her a bookstore while essentially rubbing honey into her skin? That scene?
Suzanne: Yep.
Elyse: Yeah.
[Laughter]
Elyse: Yeah.
Sarah: Yeah, Elyse liked that one too.
Suzanne: Yeah, that’s, that’s like, yeah. I mean, there’s a lot that happens in romance novels where I’m like, yeah, I could take this or leave it, or I’m, that works for that couple, but that’s not what I want, but I, that scene, it’s like, yep, that’s, that’s what I, yep, that is. I put myself in the book for that. So good! Anyway. And the other is just because we’re big geeks: I think everybody should read Saga.
Matt: Mmm.
Suzanne: It’s a comic, and –
Sarah: It’s so good.
Suzanne: – it’s so good. And, yeah, it’s not a romance, but it’s a romance. There’s, I mean, it’s, like, literally star-crossed lovers, right? I mean –
Matt: Yeah, yeah.
Sarah: Pretty much.
Suzanne: And, and the woman’s a badass, and the guy’s a badass, and the whole –
Matt: And they’re good parents.
Suzanne: Well, they try to be.
Matt: On occasion.
Suzanne: Yeah, and you know, it’s, it’s –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Suzanne: – it’s nuanced, and it’s just, it’s so good, and it’s still ongoing, and comics are expensive, so I’m sorry, but I think everybody who is above the age of eighteen should read that comic.
Rich: Now, for Saga, is that – they have that in graphic novels, right?
Suzanne: Yeah, they have in trades, so it’s like 3-4 issues each.
Matt: Yeah, it’s, their, their publishing pattern seems to be six issues and then three months off, during which they publish a collection of those six issues.
Suzanne: Yeah, so it’s, like, six issues of, in an arc, and that –
Elyse: And it, it’s, it’s cool, Rich, I just one-click bought Volume One
Sarah: [Laughs]
Rich: Actually, this, this among many, many other reasons is why I love my wife so much.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Aww! That, and she brings you the severed head of your enemies.
Rich: Yeah! It, it –
Sarah: That’s nice!
Rich: – it’s very unique having someone who’s, like, willing to do that for you. Granted, you know, I’m getting tired of having to dig holes in the park at night, but –
Sarah: Yeah, you know. That’s why you need to get a dog! They’ll help you with the digging.
Rich: Yeah.
Sarah: Get, get a Brodie. They’ll help you with the digging.
Suzanne: Don’t you have a cat?
Rich: Well, Brodie won’t help with it; she’ll just run around with it like, look what I have! Look what I have!
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elyse: Yes, we have a cat, and there may be background noise, Sarah, because, I have not gotten up to investigate, but there is something alive in our house, and I’m praying to God it’s just a fly that he is slowly destroying everything in an attempt to catch.
Sarah: Well –
Matt: Yeah.
Sarah: if it is, if he’s going to kill it, he’s doing his job.
Elyse: Right.
Matt: Our cat does not kill things; he just brings them in and then toys with them for literally hours?
[Laughter]
Elyse: I’m just going to torture this in front of you.
Suzanne: Yeah, like, feathers and, like, blood streaks – it’s just, it’s horrifying, yeah.
Rich: Well, actually, no, what he’s doing, he’s trying to teach you guys how to hunt. He’s like, okay, I’ve brought this to you. Now you have to figure out how to kill it. Okay, and go, humans.
Suzanne: And he’s less, he’s, he’s this, like, big fluffy Maine Coon, so he’s incredibly soft –
Rich: [Laughs]
Sarah: Yep.
Suzanne: – and he, he loves having his belly rubbed –
Sarah: Yeah.
Suzanne: – and so, like, him, compared to the cat that you see torturing things for hours, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s kind of, it’s, like, serial-killer-ish, and it’s creepy.
Sarah: Yep.
Suzanne: His name is also Dewey, which I believe is, is the same as –
Elyse and Sarah: Wow –
Elyse: – that is the same!
Sarah: – that is awesome!
Rich: Yeah, that is sort of freaky.
Suzanne: Yeah.
Elyse: Our, our Dewey loves to go into the basement to eat millipedes and spiders, and we joke that, like, he’s the, he’s the Great Reaper in millipede/spider mythology, right. ‘Cause he comes up, and he’s just got, like, legs wiggling out of his mouth. It’s kind of disgusting.
Suzanne: Oh –
[Laughter]
Suzanne: Cats are so gross! [Laughs] I’m sorry.
Sarah: Matt, what about you? Do you have a book recommendation?
Matt: I think I’m going to take advantage of the fact that Suzanne had two recommendations –
Suzanne: Cheat.
Matt: – because I, I feel like I haven’t read enough for – like, I’ve only read maybe a dozen novels at most. I don’t, I don’t –
Suzanne: That’s not true. He means romance novels.
Matt: Romance novels.
Sarah: Right. Right, right, right.
Matt: I can always recommend books in general. I’m actually rereading the Prydain series by Lloyd, Lloyd Alexander right now, which is an, an interesting contrast to a lot of the other fantasy of the time. But I don’t feel like I can recommend a romance novel right now. I don’t feel like I have enough breadth.
Sarah: I can understand that.
Rich: But, but it doesn’t have to be breadth. Just, like, which is the one that, like, if people ask you, you know, what, what do you like to read and then, like, the one that you’re willing to talk to them in public, that’s usually what I, I go with is, like, the, what’s the best one?
Suzanne: Yeah, would you recommend Level Up or – ?
Matt: I was going to say, in that case, I would probably recommend either Level Up, which actually I did recommend Level Up to several coworkers, as mentioned, and I would probably also recommend Dark Wild Night. I can’t remember the title. It would be so much easier if I could remember the title.
Suzanne: That’s it.
Matt: Dark Wild Night. Okay, excellent. Whew!
Suzanne: The, the problem with – I mean, it’s not a problem, but like, you know, the, the issue with recommending Christina Lauren’s books is that they are pretty heavy on the sexytimes, so –
Matt: Well, but that one in particular takes a while for them to get into the sexytimes.
Suzanne: It does. Not necessarily the fantasizing about the sexytimes.
Matt: That’s true!
Suzanne: They have some, some pretty good daydreams for a while there, yeah. But, yeah, so it felt weird, like, like, I’ve traded books with my sisters, and then it’s like, um, okay, so what subgenre are you interested in? And you’re hoping that they, you know, say something that might indicate what level of steaminess they’re open to? But Matt has two sisters, and so I’ve, I’ve been very hesitant to, to recommend the steamier romances, and then I discovered that one of his sisters was, she actually listens to this podcast, so I’m going to be careful what I say, but –
[Laughter]
Suzanne: – she’s, she’s like, oh, yeah, I read that one. We were talking about, oh, not guilty pleasure. Glutton, Glutton for Pleasure? Oh, my God, I can’t speak. And she’s like, oh, yeah, I read that one, and I was like, oh, okay! So if she can read that book, then I can recommend her all these other books. [Laughs]
Sarah: Uh, yes, yes, you can. Am I missing anyone’s recommendations?
Elyse: Oh, I have to go.
Sarah: Oh, okay, I’m, hold on, let me pull the, the keyboard closer. Go. [Laughs]
Elyse: So, I’m a big, I’ve, it’s not a romance, but it sucked up my entire weekend. Like, I can’t, I’m not going to be able to accomplish anything until I finish this book, and, like, seriously, I’m thinking about tomorrow and whether I need to go to work. But I just downloaded The Fifth Season by N. K. Jemisin?
Sarah: Oh, she’s so good.
Elyse: Holy shit, is this book good. Like, it’s going to be one of those books where you finish it, and every other book you read after it sucks by comparison, and you’re really upset about it, and I went to her website, and she’s starting a Patreon campaign –
Sarah: Yep.
Elyse: – to help her be able to write more and work her nine-to-five job less, and I’m having thoughts like, we don’t need to pay our mortgage, right? Like, how many –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elyse: You get a couple –
Rich: That’s, that’s actually sort of important.
Matt: [Laughs]
Rich: We could cut back on the yarn maybe, instead of the mortgage.
Elyse: No, we can’t. That’s not –
Sarah: Let, let’s not get crazy here.
Elyse: Let’s not get crazy here.
Rich: [Laughs]
Elyse: So I’m reading, I’m reading that, and that is just, it’s, it’s an epic fantasy novel. It takes place in – I, I haven’t figured out yet – are, are we on an alternate planet, or is this Earth, like, thousands and thousands of years from now where it’s an environment that’s very, very heavy on severe weather and tectonic issues, seismic issues, and so society’s basically built around survival. Doing, you know, waiting for the next big earthquake or volcanic eruption, tsunami, and, and how you’re going to survive, and there’re three female protagonists that the book follows, and it’s so good.
[music]
Sarah: And that is all for this week’s rather long episode. I hope you enjoyed our group interview. I had so much fun during this conversation, and I want to thank Matt and Suzanne and Elyse and Rich for taking the time to talk to me for more than an hour to explore what reading romance as a couple means and how it changes what they talk about. Are you a couple or person that reads romance? You don’t have to be heterosexual. You could be any kind of sexual you want, but if you read romances with your partner and it’s part of your relationship, I would be really interested in hearing about it. For me personally, my husband’s and my reading tastes are so very different that I haven’t really discovered a straight-up romance – like, you know, the getting together part is the primary reason the story exists – that he has enjoyed. I have made many good recommendations for him, but the romance was sort of like a secondary ingredient, not a primary ingredient. But if you are a couple or part of a relationship and you both read romances and it has an effect on how you talked about things with one another, I would totally love to hear, hear from you! Email me at [email protected].
If you are a regular listener of the show and you would like to support us or help us reach goals like transcribing all the episodes that don’t have a transcript, you can have a look at Patreon.com/SmartBitches. Many, many listeners have made monthly pledges of a dollar, three dollars, five dollars a month, and the contributions are so, so helpful. Thank you very, very much. If you would like to have a look or share the link or maybe make a pledge, you can go to Patreon.com/SmartBitches.
The music you’re listening to was provided by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This piece is called “Sonata for Piano, Op. 26” by Samuel Barber, and it is performed by Jade Simmons from her album Revolutionary Rhythm. You can find it on Amazon and on iTunes and wherever you buy your fine music.
I will have links to all of the books that we discussed in the podcast entry, but if you have suggestions or questions or ideas and you want to ask me something or you’d like to leave a voicemail about the book that made you into a romance reader, ‘cause I am totally still taking those, please, please call 1-201-371-3272. That’s 1-201-371-3272. Leave me a message, tell me what’s your, on your mind, what you’re thinking about, book you want to talk about, or what book made you into a totally happy, joyful romance reader, or what book totally made you rage, that’s totally fine too. And if you’re thinking, I really don’t like the sound of my voice, believe me, I understand. I edit the sound of my own voice every week, and it’s very strange. You can email me at [email protected] or [email protected], ‘cause like most humans I have, like, nineteen email addresses. Either way, I love hearing from you, because you’re the very best!
So on behalf of everyone here and myself, including both of the cats, who want to crawl into my sound box – did you know that sound foam inside a cardboard box is way better than an ordinary cardboard box if you’re a cat? This is a thing I’ve discovered. Either way, on behalf of all of us here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend.
[seriously cool music]
This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.
@Elyse, I met mine in a bookstore too. Although we both worked there. He was one of the assistant managers when I started there. In retrospect, I should have known he was into me when he was the guy that was fine with me reading on the clock during slow times.
@Crystal bookstore romances are the best romances
I am blind, and my husband and I have been listening to audiobooks together for years. We read from all genres. I think it’s funny that now when we are reading, say, An action adventure or suspense novel, and there is what passes for a romance in most of those books, my husband will groan and say, “This guy could really stand to read a romance novel to up his game.”I love it.
@Ainsly – I just laughed so hard. HA! High fives to you and your husband!
Did someone mention chest hair? 😉
Loved the interview/group discussion! Can we have a group update in a year or so?
I LOVED this podcast SO MUCH! Thank you to all 5 of you for your time and discussion. I’m going to get my hubby to listen to this episode; he already recognizes the fringe benefits of my reading habits 😉 but I think he’d like this discussion. Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!
Oh, this makes my day. I love hearing from y’all about how much you like particular episodes. Thank you!!
Great episode!
Man, I love The Crows series so much but the covers actually piss me off. It’s not just like, sigh, marketing. It’s complete disregard for the stories. These are books about communities of women, whose common ground (for most) and origin story (for all) is violence/abuse to them by men. They rebuild themselves by building connections between themselves. The romances, so far in the series, are 1) secondary to the female friendships and 2) actually completely outside The Crows. And what do the covers show?
Jacked broody men.
I know urban fantasy covers have their own problems, but that’s how these books should have been marketed. Badass women, maybe a pitbull, holding an arm in her mouth. The Crows leans much more urban fantasy than romance anyway.
This episode is fantastic!
Wanted to recommend a company that does exclusively full cast audiobooks. They’re called Graphic Audio, and they’re AMAZING. Not all of their books have romance, and they’ve never done a straight romance book, but they are so so good. Every speaking voice has an actor, there’s sound effects and music and narration. Their tagline is “A movie in your mind,” and it’s so true. Hope y’all check one out, because they’re excellent.
I’m a fairly new listener and love your podcasts! This one was so fun. My love of romance novels has grown over the last 3 years and my husband isn’t a big reader of novels but loves that I read romance and tell him about the ‘sexy bits’.
I hate so many of the covers but like the less obvious ones like the Christina Lauren series or Sawyer Bennet’s books that actually look like the characters should look.
Keep up the good work and interesting and fun interview – I love all the book referrals 🙂
@Tara: I’m so happy you enjoy them! Thank you so much!!
This episode was fantastic! I loved the discussion. I really enjoy the podcasts that are the Smart Bitches crew just talking books and life. I especially enjoy Elyse and Red Headed Girl as I was born and raised in Minnesota (you betcha) and went to college in Wisconsin and met my husband (total cheesehead who taught our then two year daughter this – Q “what do bears do?” A “they still suck”) When they start with regional stuff – it’s just the best! Thanks to all in this episode – I’ve listened to it twice!
Yeah, I have noticed that it is so hard to find ordinary-looking heroes. If they are described as ugly it’s usually because of some dramatically-acquired scar. And trying to find one who has as much body fat as most ordinary people… However, I do know of a couple that have a plump hero; one is The Principle of Desire by Delphine Dryden [all of Dryden’s books are very much nerdy and geeky, but they’re also BDSM erotic romances, so not for all audiences]. Another, that I would heartily recommend to the people in this podcast, is Private Politics by Emma Barry. The hero is a political blogger and the heroine is a socialite who’s really good at fundraising. The competence porn was fun and the hero was sweet.
I always wished I could have got my late husband to read some romance authors because I think he would have enjoyed them. He used to love chick flicks (he was the one always watching the Hallmark Channel and was really excited to discover the Cedar Cove series was actually based on a series of books by Debbie Macomber) and we read together a number of books that had heavy romantic elements (Time Out of Mind by John Maxim comes to mind)but he was always leery about actual romances. I almost got him into Suzanne Brockmann (he described her as “the female Tom Clancy”) but after his stroke reading became too difficult. Wish I had thought of audiobooks sooner.
Wonderful podcast! I enjoyed it so much.
My partner doesn’t read romance books, but he often asks me what I’m reading, lets me rant and shares his opinion on different topics that come up during our conversations. It’s doesn’t matter what subgenre: be it MF or MM, we discuss them all.
I find that I listen to audiobooks so much more now that I can pair them with my kindle purchases. Nothing like a 1.99 or 3.99 audible especially if the ebook is on sale and you get both for less than $5-6. I just wait for deals now or use overdrive. I find that a really enjoy reading the book and then listening to it a couple of months later.
Best audiobooks I’ve listen too that I recommend that are fun, have romance and are male friendly UF/Paranormal: anything Stephanie Laurenston/GA Aiken; Nalini Singh Guild Hunter/Psy-Changling; Illona Andrews and Thea Harrison.
Not a romance but World War Z is a great audiobook to listen to -with multiple stars voicing parts – it’s written as oral history – ten years after the war and is absolutely nothing like with movie of the same name.
The guy who narrates the Rivers of London series by Ben Aaronovitch? I could listen to him ALL DAY.
Ahhh I loved this episode SO MUCH. It gave me all the warm and fuzzy feelings and just made me so happy. Loved hearing the guys’ perspective and loved hearing about the two couples. Basically I loved it and am so happy. 😀
GREAT episode! My husband used to read romance with me, but it stopped when he went to grad school and had to limit his pleasure reading. (He didn’t choose wisely in my opinion, but ah well lol)
I have to say I agree with Sarah and one of the guests on the Phaeton Black series. I REALLY wanted to like the series, but I just cannot get past what happens in pretty much the first scene of the book.
But now I have some good leads on new books! =)
I LOVED this episode. High-fives to everyone! My husband and I are total opposites when it comes to reading. I read in times of stress or to decompress. He watches tv to cope. But this episode inspired me to ask him if he would start reading again (he has a fairly healthy scifi/true crime collection. He just hasn’t picked up a book in years because work has been too intense) and he said he was thinking about it! So I’m going to recommend The Paradox Series to him as an excellent sci-fi read (because it totally is) and see what feedback he gives me regarding the romantic elements. 😉
I’ve read almost all of the books discussed, so it was really fun to hear other people’s take on them. I’m totally with (I think it was Matt?) who said he couldn’t handle the consent issues in the Kresley Cole books. I’ve tried multiple times with that series and I just can’t get over them. And I totally agree about the Laurenston covers. I want to see my bad ass Crows on the cover! WHERE ARE THEY?!
And thank YOU for talking about NK’s Fifth Season book. It’s on my TBR list and I keep forgetting to just buy the darn thing. Doing it now!
@Christine Kobna Holdbrook-Smith — YES!! He is so unbelievably good!
Thank you so much for recommending Kresley Cole’s the Immortals After Dark! I obsessively read the first one in a day! I loved this episode and hope to hear more from this group again!
You are so welcome! If you need more recs, please feel free to ask any time. The good news is, you’ve got a bunch of great books ahead of you! Yay!
My wife is not a romance reader but my mother-in-law and her sister are and we’ve been sharing and discussing books for a long time. We have a reader group – there are as many as six of us – that gets together at our house about every two weeks to discuss a book that one of the group has selected. Wine and cheese and maybe a fancy dessert plus a good romance makes for a fun evening. We all listened to this pod cast and loved it. Why don’t more men read romance? More than likely because romance is written by and for women and so it gets dismissed out of hand – damn patriarchy! Oh, I don’t think I need to say it but my mother-in-law defies all the mother-in-law stereotypes.
Again, thanks for a great podcast. May I sign as
Sue, Julie, and Dennis
I doubt anyone will see this comment, but can anyone tell me what Rich’s job is? It would add context to him talking about talking to people at work about what they are reading.
And if that’s not okay that’s fine too.
Hey Stefanie! Rich works at a local rescue cat cafe currently, but I think at this point when it was recorded he was working at a different cafe.