654. Dialogue and Shenanigans with Kimberly Lemming

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there and welcome to episode number 654 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. This week my guest is Kimberly Lemming, and it’s so much fun. Kimberly’s new book I Got Abducted by Aliens and Now I’m Trapped in a Rom-Com, formerly known as I Got Abducted by Aliens and Now I’m Making It Everyone Else’s Problem, is out this week! And what’s inside? Well, I will give you a small spoiler: it is a fantasy world with underfunded researchers and mishandled animal restoration caused by fiscal irresponsibility, academic malfeasance, and nepotism, plus talking lions and fire-breathing aliens powered by garlic bread. I am not making any of this up. We take a side trip into Baldur’s Gate, Lothaire and promo swords. Seriously, this is a lot of fun. I’m really glad you’re here to enjoy this with me.

I do want to mention that I had a bit of sound trouble on Kimberly’s track, and I did as much as I could to even the volume, but if it sounds uneven at times I did as much as I could to smooth everything out. I hope that it’s not too bothersome.

I get to give a compliment this week! I love when that happens.

To Sheila S.: You are the type of friend and neighbor who provides the perfect amount of support every time, partially because you are a wonderful listener and can always be trusted.

If you would like a compliment of your very own or you’d like to support the show, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges keep me going; help support our fabulous, fabulous show here that you are currently enjoying; help make sure that every episode is accessible thanks to a transcript hand-compiled by garlicknitter. Howdy, garlicknitter! [Hiya! – gk] If you’d like to join the Patreon and support us, we would love it if you did!

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All right, are you ready to talk about aliens powered by garlic bread? I two thousand percent am. On with the podcast.

[music]

Kimberly Lemming: Hi, everyone! I’m Kimberly Lemming. I write what’s been described as odd, sexy fever dreams and yeah!

Sarah: Have you put that on your website? Kimberly Lemming: Odd, Sexy Fever Dreams?

Kimberly: You know what, I should. I should really just, like, change whatever – I think right now it’s like, Hallmark Meets Bloodshed, and that’s not enough anymore. You have to know that I wake up at like 3 a.m. going, I don’t know why I just fought a tentacle monster in a king’s castle, but you know what? It’s going to be a scene!

Sarah: Yes! I, you’re, lis-, just trust your brain, right?

Kimberly: [Laughs] There you go!

Sarah: If, if, if you wake up with that much weirdness in your head, you just have to trust your brain.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Right?

So congrats on your new book. The reason I love your career is that you have long titles, and I’m also a fan of long titles, so please know that on that basis alone I am a super fan, ‘cause I like long names for things. But tell me everything. What is going on with this poor person who is trapped in a rom-com? Which, by the way, sounds hellish.

Kimberly: [Laughs] It is a little bit hellish, especially since it’s on an alien planet where everything was made by underfunded research departments. But! Basically what happens is that Dorothy is filming meerkats in the Sahara, and she is, like, so close to getting her Ph.D., and right when she’s, like, setting up her camera, doing what she needs to do, she gets attacked by a lion. And then she gets abducted by aliens. So literally, throat bit, thinks she’s going to die, boom, up into the spaceship. And as soon as she gets onto that spaceship she’s like, Oh man, I don’t want to be here. I don’t want to be here at all. So she breaks out and butt-, button-mashes her way to freedom with the lion, and it works! However she did, it gets some blue goop in her hair, and now anytime she kisses someone she can understand what they’re saying? Including the lion, so now they’re talking, and they’re besties, and they grab an escape pod and crash land on this planet, and there’s aliens there! And, like, that’s odd. And then they find out there’s dinosaurs there, and, like, that’s even more odd! What is going on?

Sarah: And she’s a wildlife biologist.

Kimberly: Yes. And so she’s extra pissed off. Yeah.

Sarah: So of course she’s extra pissed off! She’s literally a, like ABD. Like, she probably already did her dissertation and is ready to just get the little stamp, right?

Kimberly: Well, it’s not even just that. It’s the fact that on this planet with dinosaurs and aliens and whatnot, none of the flora matches the fauna? She’s, she’s just freaking out because there’s a stegosaurus eating dandelions, which didn’t even exist in the same time period. She’s like, How does this work? How can its stomach even digest dandelions?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: None of this makes sense. Where is the research?

Sarah: Who, who, who did this?

Kimberly: Who did this?!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: And so she does find out that she has been abducted to basically serve as a breeding partner for a dying, dying alien species, and you know what? That she can deal with, but what she can’t deal with is the lack of care that was put into making this planet. So what does she do? She’s like, Okay, fine, I’ll marry these two aliens; however, the department head responsible for this needs a good punch in the face. So she grabs her two new alien boyfriends and goes on a quest to punch that bird in the face.

Sarah: So this is really at its heart a story about academia –

Kimberly: Yes.

Sarah: – and the terribleness of academic administration and the irresponsible scientific husbandry.

Kimberly: Yes.

Sarah: I’m so, so excited.

[Laughter]

Sarah: So I know we have a talking lion, and I know that the talking lion is named Toto, which is the greatest. And you have owl-iens? And giant reptiles and dinosaurs. Was there a point where anyone in the editorial team was like, Are, are you sure? Or was everyone like, No, sure, more is best.

Kimberly: Shockingly, everyone just rolled with it –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: – and what makes it even funnier is that I made this concept as a joke because I wasn’t sure if I wanted to continue with traditional publishing or stay indie –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly: – so I’m like, Let me make the most unhinged concept I could possibly do. We’re going to add aliens; we’re going to add dinosaurs. I heard Steamboat Mickey is now in the public domain, so you know what, he’s in there too. And just rolled with it, and for some odd reason everybody at Berkley was just like, This is brilliant; we should, yeah, keep going.

Sarah: Was there a point where you were like, Someone is going to call me on this? Nobody did.

Kimberly: Yes! I was waiting! I kept, like, upping the ante, waiting for someone to call me on my bullshit. No one did.

Sarah: You know, there are moments, like, in the current political climate where something will happen, and it’ll just be so absurd I’m like, I need the writers to go back to the writing room. This is, this is too much. We have reached peak ridiculous, and this is, I just do not accept this for the current season of, you know, 2025. But I love that you’re just like, You know? All of the, all of the hinges, they are unhinged. The doors are off the wall –

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: – the chains are off. Like, it’s just like, We’re just going to go all the way and, and your publisher, and Berkley was like, Yeah! Sure!

Kimberly: Bet!

Sarah: Keep going! You know, what, what strikes me about that is that you have an enormous amount of self-confidence and belief in yourself. That’s very cool. Like, it’s very –

Kimberly: Thank you!

Sarah: – it, it is very cool, and I admire it, because I also talk to a lot of authors, especially over the past like twenty years. You know, there, there used to be this sort of almost taught attitude of, you know, Your publisher is taking a chance on you, and you have to do exactly what they want, and your agent is taking a chance on you, and you have to appease these people who have bestowed upon you their – like, no, everyone’s here to make money.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Like, you are no higher or lower than anyone. You’ve just got to use, with them or without them, you’re going to make money. And I think, is it because you started indie and were like, I can do this myself? I don’t have to worry about this? That you’re just like, Yep, don’t care; going to do my thing.

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: Yeah?

Kimberly: I mean, again, I pretty much just did what I wanted with this book to see if they would turn it down, and they never did because the greatest thing about my readers is that they’re down for the ride.

Sarah: Yeah!

Kimberly: Anytime I’m like, You guys want to go on a crazy adventure? Just like, Yes!

Sarah: Yes!

Kimberly: Why haven’t you dropped the book yet? What’s wrong with you? Like, I’m sorry! Okay! Off to the editor! [Laughs]

Sarah: And it’s great because you are one of the very few people in that particular space. You’re writing hilarity with a lot of undertone and a lot of nuance, but it’s, it’s, on the surf-, it’s, it reminds me a lot of Chuck Tingle, and I mean this in the most, most complimentary way. Some of what he writes is so absurd, yet you’re, you just, Okay! Sure! Absolutely, you’re being pounded in the ass by your book Pounded in the Ass By My Book Pounded in the Ass By My Butt. Like, that’s fine! Sure. We’re building a business plan in someone’s rectum. These things happen. And there is really, I think, a big audience for No, I really need it to be completely bonkers; please give me more bonkers.

Kimberly: You know what’s funny about that? I started this because of Chuck Tingle.

Sarah: Get the hell out of here!

Kimberly: Before COVID, I went to a show he did in Minneapolis with a friend of mine, and he dared the audience to start writing erotica for fun, because he said, like, Oh yeah, you could do it and, like, get some beer money and whatever. I’m like, Oh, I like beer money and whatever.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: So I started writing erotic shorts, and about the time I was ready to quit my job and hated everything, like, You know what? What if I just wrote, like, a longer book full of unhinged-ness and see what happens? And then I wrote That Time I Got Drunk and Saved a Demon like a year after that conversation, and my whole life just changed thanks to Chuck Tingle daring me.

Sarah: Dr. Tingle is very powerful!

Kimberly: He really is! [Laughs]

Sarah: Wow! So someday there is going to be, like, this, like, string diagram of the ways in which the Tingleverse has influenced the world, and you’re, like, going to be stop number two. Like, we have Kimberly Lemming because of Dr. Tingle. Does he, does he know this? Have you ever told him this?

Kimberly: I did, yeah!

Sarah: What did he say?

Kimberly: It was actually really cool, because I think it was sometime early last year, someone was making a stink about my, the title of my second book ‘cause it has yeet in it, and so –

Sarah: I saw that.

Kimberly: Yeah! Chuck actually shared the pictures. Just like, You guys are stupid. This is fun. This is the exact same way my books do it. And I’m like, Thanks for saying that. Also, by the way, I did this because of you. And he’s just like, Hey, that’s awesome! And I’m like, I knew he’d be just the best person.

Sarah: He really is! Like, I’m, I’ve spoken to him two times, I think, for the podcast. It could be three, but I’m not good with numbers.

Kimberly: He’s a genius.

Sarah: He’s a genius! And he’s such a generous person. I still think about things that he said in interviews.

So what was the process of writing this book? Was it, was it different from your prior books? Because I know your, your Mead Mishaps were indie published, and this is with Berkley. What do you think of those two experiences?

Kimberly: Well, I think with Berkley there’s a lot that was taken off my plate, which was nice? So I really had just enough time to, like, more research the book? Like, back when I was still delusional, like, you know what? This is just going to be like a fun little break I can do in between the Mead Mishaps series. It’s going to be a fun little short. And then my friend Alexis laughed in my face, and she’s like, This is going to be the longest book you’ve ever written. I’m calling it now.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: And then I’m like –

Sarah: Don’t you hate friends like that?

Kimberly: – You’re a liar! Also, can I stay with you for two days, ‘cause I’m flying to New Jersey to research dinosaurs in the museums? She’s just like, Of course you are! Of course, yes. And so – [laughs] – I spent like two days researching, like, all the different dinosaur museums in the area because that’s where the DNA comes from to form this new planet, and I, like, spent a lot of time trying to get into the head of how to think like an animal researcher, researcher so I could just keep going on Dorothy’s tangents, and she’s just like, Oh! This doesn’t make sense! So a lot more research and just, like, care went into the worldbuilding of this book, and thanks to Berkley I had time to do that, so that was just really nice.

Sarah: That is really nice! What, what other types of research did you do? Did you have to, like, figure out what plants did not exist in the Mesozoic era? I don’t remember where stegosauruses were.

Kimberly: Yes. So flowers didn’t actually exist then, unless it was just, like, the neningi- – I can’t – the word is so long for that flower. But there’s an ancient flower that might have been there, might have not. There’s still some debate on that.

Sarah: Wow.

Kimberly: And I also – [laughs] – I also had to figure out how the aliens could breathe fire? Because another friend of mine was just like, Kim, this isn’t fantasy; you need reasons for things, so if the aliens breathe fire, I need to know why the aliens breathe fire.

Sarah: You have –

Kimberly: And that –

Sarah: – both great and terrible friends.

Kimberly: Yes, I do! [Laughs]

Sarah: Sitting here making your book longer, making your work harder, giving you shit. Yeah, okay! These are, these are good people!

Kimberly: I, I spent like a week trying to figure out how it could be possible by, like, researching all these different animals, that, like, which ones produce methane; which ones can, like, shoot acid or blood out of their eyes; and eventually I went into, like, the, the yeast method? Like, how cows produce methane and whatnot, and I wrote like a whole thing to give to my editor to prove that it works, but basically the aliens are now powered by garlic bread?

Sarah: Of course.

Kimberly: So –

Sarah: Yeah!

Kimberly: – that’s how they breathe fire.

Sarah: Because of garlic.

Kimberly: And you know what? There’s science behind it, so come at me. [Laughs]

Sarah: So what is the science of the garlic bread? How do you get from garlic bread to fire, Oside from leaving in the oven too long?

Kimberly: I will open up my notes!

Sarah: I am so excited about this, because this is fantastic. Like, I remember, ‘cause I was, my, my kids and I were super into How to Train Your Dragon, and there was a whole special about how the animators thought that different dragons would do different things. Like, some breathe fire; some spit a gas and then the other – it’s a two-headed dragon – the second head has a spark? So one has sparks and one has gas, and they work together and make things explode. And the animators had all these explanations, and I’m like, None of this makes sense, but none of them involved garlic bread! So tell me everything!

Kimberly: [Laughs] Okay. So the note I have is they create fire via ethanol; a bacteria stored in their bodies combined with a bellyful of yeast so they produce methane, like cows; and a tail that can suck up extra air to shoot flames out through a separate tube through their throat. And – so yeah. Instead of having, like, the one hole that we use to breathe and eat out of, they actually have a second one, and in their throat there’s a flap that comes down, kind of like when an alligator opens its mouth so it doesn’t drown itself? And it basically comes out through that tube, out through their mouth, and…what not. But that’s how the yeast comes involved, ‘cause they need it for methane!

Sarah: Garlic bread!

Kimberly: So garlic-bread-powered aliens.

Sarah: I mean, I myself could be powered by garlic bread; I will not question this.

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: So your heroine is an academic and a wildlife biologist, and the –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – biggest problem she has is the absolute incongruousness of all of the animals and flora and fauna in the world that she’s in.

Kimberly: Yes.

Sarah: So that’s what she’s actually mad about it: the fact that she’s, you know, having sexytimes with two aliens, fine, whatever, okay. This flora and fauna problem is the big problem.

Kimberly: That is the big problem. And it’s only made worse when she finds out that the aliens only spent three days on Earth actually researching how humans live, and the whole reason they have dinosaurs on that planet is because they just saw a bunch of museums, and they were like, You know what? This has a lot of Earth DNA in it, so let’s just take all the DNA from these buildings and, like, populate it that way. So they cut so many corners because their boss, the guy that she wants to punch in the face, just blew all of their budget on the research center itself so he could have, like, a spa, all sorts of other things, so it’s just, like, such an abuse of scientific funds, and she cannot abide that. She cannot!

Sarah: And so she has two partners who are like, You want to punch somebody in the nose? We’re with you. Let’s go nose-punch.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: I love how the quest –

Kimberly: … we’ve got a hot new mate; let’s go!

Sarah: Yeah! The quest is punch this idiot in the nose.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: It’s very satisfying to, I think, also, to just be like, You know, this is the reason why things suck. It’s because of this person being selfish and shortsighted, and, you know, they do deserve a punch in the nose.

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: I mean, there are so many people like that operating in government on state and federal level that, you know, I actually endorse this. Can we make a list of people to punch in the nose?

Kimberly: It may have been a little therapeutic for me personally, but –

Sarah: I’m…

Kimberly: – who’s to say?

Sarah: I bet it was! So tell me about these aliens that she is hooking up with.

Kimberly: So Lok and Sol are both part of the same race, but from different factions. So Lok actually is part of the crew, where he basically just like travels around with his stegosaurus/sheep and basically lives with his herd and just, like, does it that way, whereas Sol lives in an actual settlement, and those two are at odds with each other. So the first time they all meet, they do end up fighting and punching each other in the face, and because Dory can’t figure out what they’re saying as they’re fighting, she’s just like, I can’t – can you just, like, stop hitting him for a second so I can kiss him so we can all talk? And of course that doesn’t happen. They keep punching each other, so, like, You know what? I’m done! I’m done. So she walks over to both of them; just, like, throws one off the other; kisses Lok; and just, like, Okay, can we breathe now? Can we speak? Talk together, yes? And they’re just like, Okay. I guess she’s in charge. Sure!

Sarah: And it’s, it’s a lovely parallel too, in an opposite, because she’s like, Would you just stop fighting so we can do things, and then the next thing that she wants to do is go fight somebody.

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: You are who I do not want to be fighting. You need to help me fight this other guy. This is the actual boss that we need to fight, not each other.

Kimberly: And they are on board.

Sarah: Quite allegorical.

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Don’t turn against each other; turn against the – go, go after the Big Bad that’s causing the problem. Don’t turn against each other for dumb fucking reasons.

Kimberly: Well, they’re also on board with it because the whole reason they’re in this research program is because the Biwban actually had an oil spill on the Sankado’s original home planet and just, like, ruined the whole thing. So in accordance with their law, they have to basically own up to their mistake and save all of the endangered species they’d pretty much destroyed, but whoopsie, the Biwban ended up only taking males because they’re avian, and so the way they tell the difference between male and female is with color, and with the Sankado it’s like us, where it’s sexual dimorphism, so they just put, put all of the biggest Sankado they could find on the ships and left, which means every woman that was, like, of an average height got left behind. I’m sorry; they did. But don’t feel bad, because it means I would have been left too. So as soon as they found out, like, what, what, hold on, hold on, so the people that put us here are also the people that did the whole oil spill that destroyed our planet? And also the head of the research department, the guy that blew all the funding, is the son of the company, or, like, the – gah. How do I say this? The company head’s son? We’re done. We’re also going to punch this bird in the face. The bird has to die at this point.

Sarah: So this is about fiscal irresponsibility, academic malfeasance, and nepotism.

Kimberly: Yes!

Sarah: So this was exceedingly satisfying to write, I imagine.

Kimberly: Oh, I had such a time! [Laughs]

Sarah: And it’s not just like, you know, owl-iens and weresheep or, you know, all of this is fine. But the fact that you’re making this incredibly rich allegory for so much of what is happening right now is deeply satisfying. Like, oooh! The dumbasses get comeuppance? That’s the best thing! It’s like reading a Beverly Jenkins novel and the no-, and the villain dies because they’re stupid! It’s very satisfying.

Kimberly: Yes! Ah! Been there.

Sarah: I love when she kills off the bad men with stupid.

Kimberly: And she does it better than anyone; she really does.

Sarah: Oh! It’s like my favorite thing about reading a Beverly Jenkins book. Like, oh, you are the villain, and you’re going to die in a dumb, embarrassing way, and it’s going to be really satisfying. [Laughs]

Kimberly: And that’s why she’s the queen!

Sarah: It is; that is why she is the queen.

So the two aliens are into her. Like, is this an instant, like, Fated Mates thing, or are they just like, Nope, she’s in charge, so we’ll follow her and give her sexual pleasure?

Kimberly: Yes! So it’s a Fated Mates type thing that was put into a serum. So the Biwban actually figured out how the whole Fated Mates situation works with the Sankado, and the way they decided to go about it is because we don’t have that, obviously, so they had to modify Dory and the rest of the human females just a slight bit so they’d actually be susceptible to the hormones, and so the first time you get introduced to the Intern is when he’s actually flying around and, like, shooting Dory, Dorothy with a dart so she can actually get on with the imprinting.

Sarah: Was it a, was it a, a distinct choice to name her Dorothy from, like, from The Wizard of Oz? Person out of her own world?

Kimberly: Yes and no. I really wanted to name her after a Black scientist, and then I actually watched the movie Hidden Figures and Dorothy Vaughan was one of the main women that helped get everyone to NASA, and I’m just like, Oh my God! It was –

Sarah: Perfect!

Kimberly: – so perfect!

Sarah: Perfect!

So what are the different kinds of research that you did? You looked at dinosaurs –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – you looked at wildlife biology; you looked at animal evolution.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Sarah: What are some of the things that you learned writing this book that you would just love to tell everybody about?

Kimberly: I don’t know why I got hyperfixated on this scene so bad, but there is a scene where Dorothy sees a giant American bullfrog, and by giant I mean the size of a cow, and she knows –

Sarah: Okay.

Kimberly: – that the largest frog to ever exist, the king daddy of frogs – I don’t remember the scientific name – was only like ten pounds. So you literally cannot have a frog this size, and she’s like, How, how is it eating? What is it eating? What’s going on? And she notices that its limbs actually aren’t enough to let it jump, and so it’s been dragging itself along, and so I went through such a rabbit hole of, like, what would happen if you actually sized up a frog like this? How would it be able to move? What would it have to eat? And no, there’s no possible way the thing would be able to jump. But it could probably, like, drag itself over yonder and eat small micro-raptors, because again, I do have all kinds of dinosaurs, so there’s actually a part where after she kind of tricks Sol into kissing it so they can understand what it’s saying, it just, like, shoots out and grabs a flying dinosaur. She’s like, Oh! Cool! Finally, finally now I know what it’s saying. But then – if you don’t mind a little spoiler, if I can tell you –

Sarah: Please! Spoil away. I can, I can warn people in the intro. Tell me everything.

Kimberly: Perfect! Well, after Sol accidentally kisses this frog, she is just, like, talking, having a time, and so the frog looks at her, ‘cause it’s been trying to eat her this whole time, but it can’t, it’s not strong enough to actually, like, pull her into its mouth.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kimberly: And so he at looks at her and says, Fly? And she goes, No fly. I’m not a fly; sorry, dude. And it just, like, kind of freezes up and goes, You not fly. I not fly. I can, I can think? And then the frog just starts screaming and doesn’t stop.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly:  So she has to take out her notepad and say, Note: do not give sentience to anymore animals.

Sarah: Yeah!

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: I just want to say, on a very, very personal level, I relate to this frog, because there are times when my brain starts thinking things and I have achieved sentience like first thing when I wake up in the morning, and I just want to scream nonstop –

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: – so I completely get it!

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: I get it! I totally understand! I would scream my head off if all of a sudden all my thoughts were at once, and I already have like nineteen at a time.

Kimberly: Yeah, it’s too much!

Sarah: This is book one of Cosmic Chaos.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: How many books are going to be in the Cosmic Chaos series?

Kimberly: Right now there’s just two. I’m in the middle of finishing off the draft of book two, and the ending, I’m  hoping, will tempt Berkley into a third? But we’ll see.

Sarah: Can you tell me anything about book two? Is it the same world? Is it the same characters? Is it new characters?

Kimberly: So it’s the same world –

Sarah: Can you not say anything? If, it’s okay if you can’t say anything.

Kimberly: Oh no, it’s fine. So this one is going to follow Blair and Osid , and they come in in the first book, and Blair actually also escaped on the ship with Dory, but she was in a separate escape pod, and they actually find her when Lok’s old nemesis shows up, and basically locks up Dory, where she finds Blair, and Blair and Osid ended up getting mated to each other, which is not great, because he did, like, throw her in a cage for three days, and so Blair would much rather kill him than kiss him.

Sarah: Fair.

Kimberly: Because they hate each other so deeply – oh, I should probably mention the Tamagotchis. So – [laughs] – the Biwban have an affection meter that looks like a Tamagotchi, so Dorothy called it a Tamagotchi, and they basically want to make sure that the couples are all matching well and falling in love, and they do that by measuring the affection meter. And when Blair and Osid finally get their own Tamagotchi, the Intern notices that it’s already in the negative, and they cannot have that. So at the end of the book, those two actually get captured by the Biwban to bring to the research center for couples counseling. And that’s going to be the book two.

Sarah: I feel like the subtitle of this episode is going to be, Oh, I Probably Should Have Mentioned the Tamagotchi. This is, this is just incredible. [Laughs] Truly, truly an exquisite interview; I’m having a great time.

So when you’re writing, I imagine that you are very much a By the Seats of Your Pants, let’s see how I feel, let’s keep the serotonin and the dopamine going in the most bananas directions. How far in advance do you plot yourself as you’re writing? Like, do you just sit down and be like, Well, we’ve got to go from here to there? That’s what I, that’s my goal today? Or are you really just working on instinct and being like, Huh, dandelions. Sure! Let’s, let’s add those.

Kimberly: So it’s a bit of both. I like to know what has to happen in the story, so I at least have directions to go?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly: There’s actually a blackboard wall on the other side of this screen that is just full of all the different plot points that my brain goes on tangents. And so I usually start with a pretty concise plan, and then I’ll get a couple chapters in. That goes off the wall, but I keep it just, like, on the board in case I need to go back to it. Then after I’ve put, like, a spider web of tangents into the plot –

Sarah: Yep.

Kimberly: – where I’ve let my brain run wild, I look at the actual plot that was going to happen just like, Okay, how do I plug this back into place to actually make a coherent story? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. I have a very similar process when I’ve written fiction? Sometimes my brain’ll give me, like, a scene and, and I’m like, Okay! This is the scene. Don’t know where it goes. Don’t know what it’s doing.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Here’s what’s happening. And then eventually what I have to figure out is Oh, I’m working my way towards that scene, and I’m like three scenes back. So I’ve already written that; I just have to figure out how I’m going to get there eventually?

Kimberly: Right.

Sarah: But it’s never in order; it’s never linear. Like, I will write the end and then write some part about two-thirds, and then I’ll do some exposition. It’s like, it’s all over the place. I remember in college having to print out my college papers?

Kimberly: Oof!

Sarah: And cutting them up paragraph by paragraph to edit them that way, because I couldn’t – I had a word process- – it was, it was the ‘90s; I had a word processor, and the little screen was tiny. I used to have to, like, cut up my papers and rearrange them because my brain is so nonlinear. So it’s really gratifying – [laughs] – to talk to somebody who has a similar process.

Kimberly: Oh yeah. I can’t write liner, linear – I can’t even say that word anymore! I can’t do it! [Laughs]

Sarah: No, forget it. Nope. Do you use Scrivener and move the little boxes around?

Kimberly: I keep my story bibles in Scrivener. I can’t write in Scrivener. There’s too many buttons; I will get distracted.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: So I usually do like Atticus for actually writing, ‘cause it’s a very clean setup. I keep my story bible in Scrivener, and then all of my random nonsense notes are just in the notepad on my phone? ‘Cause a lot of times when I have an idea for a scene I won’t write out the full scene; I’ll just write out the conversation and, like, key points of what’s happening. That way –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kimberly: – I don’t have to sit there and, like, Okay, and then they turned and did this, and then she got dressed. I don’t care! We’re about the dialogue and the shenanigans.

Sarah: Dialogue and shenanigans! Also a good title for your website. We’re racking ‘em up here. Dialogue and shenanigans. That is, that is my catnip, so thank you!

If you could go back to yourself when you were first, like, listening to Dr. Tingle and being like, Oh, I could write, I could write absurd erotica. This sounds fun! What would you tell yourself?

Kimberly: Fucking do it! It worked out so well!

[Laughter]

Kimberly: Like, what are you waiting for?

Sarah: It also sounds like you and I have very similar sort of life philosophies? Generally speaking if I’m like, Oh, I want to do this! My, my, the next thing that comes to my brain is, And who is going to stop me?

Kimberly: Yes! Exactly!

Sarah: Who’s going to, who’s going to check me? Nobody!

Kimberly: This whole book was a dare of who’s going to stop me? No one did!

[Laughter]

Sarah: There were a lot of people involved, and not a single one said Stop.

Kimberly: Not one!

Sarah: There are no red lights here.

Kimberly: I wasn’t joking about the Steamboat Willie and Tamagotchi.

Sarah: No! I, I absolutely believe you without question. But yeah! Who’s going to stop you? It’s a very, it’s very liberating way to go through the world, and especially a way to build a career?

Kimberly: So freeing.

Sarah: But it’s also interesting because as women, we are, we are definitely conditioned that, you know, you should always be checking yourself; you should always be looking after what you’re doing. You are, you have to, you are your self-control, and everyone else is judging you all the time, and it’s kind of liberating to be like, I don’t care! Who’s going to stop me?

Kimberly: I don’t care! [Laughs]

Sarah: So I asked you about, like, things that you love talking about, and you mentioned that you are obsessed with Baldur’s Gate 3.

Kimberly: I am.

Sarah: And I would really like to know about Baldur’s Gate 3, ‘cause I’ve played Witcher 3; I’ve played Dragon Age: Inquisition; I just bought Veilguard. I had been about buying Veilguard, and my younger child was like, Yeah, I’ve got Veilguard on my wish list, and I’m like, Well, we have a family Steam library, and it would be wrong of me not to buy Veilguard now.

Kimberly: Totally!

Sarah: Also, it’s on sale! So I’m, (a) I’m very impressionable, and I love games like this, so tell me why I should play Baldur’s Gate 3.

Kimberly: Okay. So I bought it thinking it was going to be a silly, goofy time, and then everyone was hot for some reason, and you could romance most of the cast.

Sarah: Yep.

Kimberly: And a lot of those romances left me bawling in my seat? And I didn’t think that was going to happen, but the story writing in this game is so incredible. I have been playing it for a year, and I’m still somehow not sick of it. That is why I suggest Baldur’s Gate 3. Like, there’s so much content; there’s so much to love. I remember the first time I got to one of the climactic scenes with Astarion’s route, my favorite, my husband popped in right at the climactic moment to, like, tell me something, and there were tears streaming down my face. I was ugly-crying into my glass of wine, and I just pointed to the door and not even saying the words Get the fuck out, but he, he got it. He’s like, Okay, later. You’re clearly going through something. I’ll leave.

Sarah: You’re having a moment. I’ll just leave you be. You’ve got something going on. You and the computer. Yeah.

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Again, dialogue and shenanigans.

Kimberly: Dialogue and shenanigans!

Sarah: Actually, that’s a really good way to classify games, because I don’t like it when it’s Go here, shoot this – like, I actually like the dialogue and the interaction, and I love when there’s really thoughtful writing. One of the thing I love, one of the things I love about Dragon Age: Inquisition is you can tell there’s a lot of thought put into –

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: – the moral and ethical choices that you’re making and which characters are you going to romance? And if you don’t romance them and they romance each other, what, does that have an effect on your story? Like, I love that part. I mean, even on Witcher 3, I’m playing it on, like, I, I call it, like, extremely easy mode? Because I am not a very good gamer. I, I, I can’t even play characters where you, like, get up close and fight? ‘Cause I, I can’t move my thumbs that fast, so I’m always in the back with, like, some super powered bow and arrow like, Don’t come near me!

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: I’m just going to shoot you. But I love, like, Witcher 3? You just wander around this beautiful environment, and sometimes a bandit will attack you and your, the bandit will be wearing, like, under-, ye olde medieval undergarments. Like, just underpants and a helmet. And then you kill them because they’re dumb and, like, they, like, they come and fall on your sword for you. But then you get to loot them, and sometimes this man who’s wearing nothing but a folded piece of fabric and a helmet has like a whole chicken.

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like an entire chicken, or like a ham sandwich, and I’m like, Where?

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: Where was this chicken? I, I don’t care about fighting you. I just want to know literally what food is in your pants. That’s what I want.

Kimberly: [Laughs] And that’s so true! You’re going to find a lot of that in Baldur’s Gate 3. One of –

Sarah: It’s my favorite.

Kimberly: – the main gripes is that there’s a lot of boxes everywhere, and I’m –

Sarah: Yep.

Kimberly: – the type of gob-, goblin that I have to loot every single box? There –

Sarah: Absolutely! No question mark unanswered!

Kimberly: Most of the boxes are empty, and I’m like, Why are we stacking all these empty boxes in Faerûn? What was the purpose? Is there a shipping company that just got robbed? I don’t understand.

Sarah: Who is the administrator in charge of this? ‘Cause they’re doing a terrible job.

Kimberly: And they need a punch in the face.

Sarah: Yes, they do!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Has Baldur’s Gate informed your writing, or videogames in general?

Kimberly: Yeah, I’d say so. I mean, I’ve been playing videogames –

Sarah: Yeah?

Kimberly: – all my life, so, like, the storytelling can be kind of similar? Of just, like, Okay, we’ve got to start off with some bandits, because we don’t have our superpowered swords yet. Okay, we’ve got our superpowered swords? Bring in the lich!

Sarah: Yep. Now, I can, I can fight the leshen and it won’t scare the poodle out of me.

Kimberly: There you go!

Sarah: And a lot of your books do echo the sort of growing stakes of a videogame, that there is a lot of leveling up in your books.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Which I think, I mean, (a) is very logical, because as you repeat experiences in a strange universe, you’re going to gain more expertise and know how to deal with it, but it also, it increases the stakes because you’re constantly leveling up, and then the stakes get higher as you level up, so it, it maintains that consistent elevation of tension, too.

Kimberly: I mean, at this point I’m basically writing gamer light without the title of gamer light? So – [laughs]

Sarah: [Laughs] Gamer light dialogue and shenanigans. Got it. Sounds good.

Now, you also mentioned that you have a passion for the Immortals after Dark series.

Kimberly: I do. I love…

Sarah: Let me hear all about it.

Kimberly: Man, Kresley Cole, the genius that she is, she set up this whole series with Valkyries, vampires, and all the things, and I love it! I originally just read Lothaire, because my friend was just like, You have to read this book; it’s the perfect morally gray villain. You’ll love him!

Sarah: Hmm.

Kimberly: And I did love him and his Appalachian, hillbilly wife so much that I’m just like, Who would think to pair this Russian vampire who’s like a thousand years old with this just regular woman from Appalachia who has the Goddess of Death trapped inside her?

Sarah: As you do.

Kimberly: What is happening? Oh my God, there’s like twenty books in the series? I’m sold.

[Laughter]

Kimberly: And then the second book in the series, the opening is this werewolf getting tortured in a cell in, like, the sewers of Paris, but he, like, sniffs out his mate, just Oh my God, you smell so good, rips off his leg, and climbs out of the sewer – [laughs] – and I’m like, I’m so on board. I don’t care what journey she’s taking me on. I’m ready, and I’m set.

Sarah: It, it is so interesting, especially when you consider the novella that started that series, The Warlord Wants Forever, was originally published in 2006.

Kimberly: Isn’t that crazy?

Sarah: That is, that is almost a twenty-year-old start of a series, and it’s still going.

Kimberly: It’s still going!

Sarah: And they’re all still progressing towards, like, Ragnarok and the end of the world –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: of whatever that universe is. In –

Kimberly: She’s a master of craft.

Sarah: Incredible. So when, with the Immortals after Dark series, where, which ones have you read? Have you started over and started reading the whole thing?

Kimberly: Yes. I am on four now, because I did just skip ahead to read Lothaire.

Sarah: I mean, fair. Lothaire’s one of the good ones.

Kimberly: It, oh my God. I love him.

Sarah: I remember reading through maybe the first five books in like a week. They’re very glommable.

Kimberly: But, man, in the second book, at the – was the second book the werewolf?

Sarah: Pretty sure?

Kimberly: Okay. So in the second book, when he grabs up on her after getting out of that sewer, and he was just like, Kiss me like you want to live, I was like – [gasps].

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: Hello?

Sarah: Oh! My! And it’s, it’s so interesting because this is 2005, 2006, 2007; this is a whole different era of hero types? It’s, paranormal is the biggest thing, which it’s not as much anymore, and you have these hero types that would not fly as well today?

Kimberly: No. [Laughs] But that’s kind of why I love them.

Sarah: What other books that you’re reading that you want to, or do you want to tell people about?

Kimberly: Yes. Please go read Someone You Can Build a Nest In, because that –

Sarah: I have heard about this book!

Kimberly: Oh my God. I love this book so much. I think it might be my favorite monster romance that I’ve ever read. And there’s no spice in it! But it’s just the most beautifully read, or written book I’ve seen about a monster, like, to date, and the best part is, it’s a sly monster! You wouldn’t think like, Oh yeah, this is the one that’s going to break your heart, but she does! I was tearing up at the confession. This book is so good! But yeah, I’ve been telling everyone, Please go read it.

Sarah: This was one of Amanda’s books of the year when we were talk-, you know, talking at the end of the year. She said it was one of the most memorable books she’s ever read, because it is gory and it is freakish, and the, and the, like, the things that are happening are wild, but you are so invested.

Kimberly: You are so invested. I love Shesheshen. I loved everything about this book. Oh, it was so good.

Sarah: Are there any other books you want to mention?

Kimberly: Okay, let’s see – oh yeah! John Scalzi’s Starter Villain was another big one for me this year. Last year.

Sarah: Talking cat!

Kimberly: Oh yeah! More than that, talking cats that are spies! It was the best. It was so goofy and so fun. I’m just like, this guy has the most wild anima- – er, animation – imagination, and I’m so on board with just anything John Scalzi writes.

Sarah: And also so interesting as an author with a platform? Like, he has several hundred thousand followers –

Kimberly: Wow!

Sarah: – on Bluesky, and – which is a pretty new platform – and is talking about, openly talking about building a platform and what does engagement do for him as an author? And, like, he’ll say, Okay, if you’ve got a new book out I want to know about it. Reply. And it’s like, you know, three or four hundred replies. He’s like, Everybody, go shopping right here. He is so cognizant of the volume of his platform and the, the interest level of his audience for him to talk about not just his books but others’ stuff. I find that fascinating, because on one hand, it’s not exactly fair for contractual decisions to be based on how big an author’s platform already is, because, you know, writing the book is the skill here –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – not building an audience, but on the other hand, seeing someone who has had so much success and has such a big platform just engage everybody as a person for so long, even at that massive level of audience, is really interesting!

Kimberly: Yeah, that’s amazing!

Sarah: Like, I, I do not – mm – I do not know if I could be an author in this, in the idea that you have to have an audience, and I already have one! But I don’t want to sell things directly to them, and that’s like the part where I’m, I should be, but I’m not very good at that.

Kimberly: Yeah! I should probably get better about social media, but I don’t want to.

Sarah: No.

Kimberly: Mm-mm. I’m already tired.

Sarah: My – so what has worked for you in terms of promoting your books?

Kimberly: Honestly, I get the best engagement when I just pop on and say, Hey, I had a really crazy dream last night; here’s what happened. And just doing crazy, funny things like that basically gets me more organic audience, where they’re not there just because, like, oh, they saw one viral video. It’s, this person is funny, and…

Sarah: Yeah.

Kimberly: – people laugh at jokes in her books, so I’m going to follow her on all the things and then go try out her books. So to me it’s just, the best thing I can do is tell you a funny story, which is what I want to do anyway.

Sarah: And also your voice in your books and your voice on social media match.

Kimberly: Oh good! [Laughs]

Sarah: They’re, they’re very consistent.

Kimberly: I think the gyarados hat helps a lot.

Sarah: Yes, absolutely.

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: No question; that is a major factor.

Kimberly: Also the, oh, here we go. Meet Alexis. Just like –

Sarah: Oh my God!

Kimberly: …death. That way I can pop her out anytime I need promo.

Sarah: Oh my God, you have a whole-ass promo sword!

Kimberly: Dude! Technically it was my husband’s sword, but I stole it because the one he gave me didn’t really match Alexis in the book, so I took this one instead.

Sarah: So you have a promo sword that you stole, so it’s a larcenous promo sword.

Kimberly: Yes! [Laughs]

Sarah: All right, I love a good larceny, and I love a good promo sword. So what do you do with the sword?

Kimberly: Half the time I just, like, I’ll hide under my desk and, like, boop it around like it’s dancing and put that over audio on TikTok, so half the time it’s just Alexis singing dick songs as I’m, like, under my desk trying not to show my face in the camera. [Laughs]

Sarah: Somewhere Jim Henson and the Muppets are looking down on you, and they’re so proud.

Kimberly: I learned it from watching you, Muppets!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me about your book, and thank you for all of this entertainment. I’m in the best mood now.

Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Kimberly: You can find me on all the things under @kimberlylemming: TikTok, Instagram, Bluesky. I’m technically still on X. I don’t like X, so don’t expect any updates on that one. But yeah! All the things: @kimberlylemming.

Sarah: You’re very lucky that all of your, your name was available so consistently. There’s a lot of –

Kimberly: I snatched it up so fast.

[Laughter]

Sarah: There’s a lot of creative use of underscore and introductory terms in a lot of handles ‘cause they’re all taken now.

Kimberly: Oh yeah. Part of the reason I chose Kimberly Lemming as the penname, because I googled that name and not a lot of stuff came up? I’m like, Okay, that means all the handles are free. I just snatched them up immediately.

Sarah: Was there a particular reason why you chose Kimberly Lemming?

Kimberly: Yeah! So back when I quit my job, I kind of decided to just, like, do it with no backup plan. I was like, You know, this probably isn’t going to work, but I need to do something. And then I thought, What am I going to do for a penname? Well, I’m kind of basically throwing myself to the wolves and throwing myself off a cliff, so to speak. What else does that? Lemmings!

Sarah: Lemmings!

Kimberly: Kimberly Lemming. And yes, for the animal researchers out there, I know that the whole jumping off cliff things was Disney propaganda, and they just yeeted those rodents off a cliff for views. I’m aware. But let me live.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kimberly: Unlike those lemmings.

Sarah: You, actually, you’re yeeting your characters off a cliff for, for views.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Which is fair.

Kimberly: Yes, as you do!

Sarah: All right, I love that. I had no idea that that was why your, why your penname was Lemming, and I am –

Kimberly: [Giggles]

Sarah: – fucking delighted right now. Thank you.

Kimberly: No problem!

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Kimberly for hanging out with me. Thank you to Alexis the sword for also hanging out with us. I will have a picture of the sword; it’s wonderful. I will have links to all the books we talked about, also wonderful, and I will have links to where you can find Kimberly in the show notes, which you can find in your podcast player or at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 654.

As always, I end with a bad joke. And I was alerted that I had told a recent joke already; my apologies. I tried to search my Google Drive to make sure I haven’t used this joke before, and I searched twice. So let’s do this.

Why do some people only get sick on weekdays?

Give up? Why do some people only get sick on weekdays?

They have a weekend immune system.

[Laughs] So bad I love it. That actually came from Men’s Health from a link shared in the Discord by Italapas. Thank you, Italapas! Weekend immune system.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

And in the words of one of my favorite podcasts, Friendshipping, thank you for listening; you’re welcome for talking.

[end of music]