Because it was inspired by the movie 9 to 5, we deep dive into revenge on bad bosses and movie nostalgia, too.
…
Music: purple-planet.com
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Here are the books we discuss in this podcast:
You can find AC Arthur and all her pen names at ACArthur.com.
I also mentioned the passing of Petra Mayer, editor at NPR Books, and guest on Episode 153. Sci Fi, Fantasy, Romance, and Cats.
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This episode is brought to you by Once a Laird by Mary Jo Putney.
After the death of his fiancée, Kai Ramsey left Scotland to roam distant lands. He has searched ancient ruins, collected priceless antiquities, and escaped certain death after being imprisoned as a spy. Ramsay has lived on the edge of danger for years—but everything changes the day a letter arrives for him from Scotland…
Signy Matheson has dedicated her life to the people of Scotland’s remote Thorsay Islands. She is a faithful ally to the aging laird. But now their leader is near death, and Signy must summon his successor at once. It’s time for Kai Ramsey to come home…
When Ramsay returns to Thorsay, he’s shocked to find that Signy has blossomed into an alluring beauty, and a force to be reckoned with. Their complicated past interferes with their unspoken desire as they work together for their people. Until a wild storm sparks first passion, then unexpected danger when a treasure trove left by their ancestors comes to light…
Blending romance and mystery, Once a Laird by Mary Jo Putney is available now wherever books are sold. Find out more at Kensington Books.com.
Transcript
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[music]
Sarah Wendell: Hello there! Thank you for welcoming me into your eardrums. I’m Sarah Wendell, and this is episode number 484 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. My guest today is A.C. Arthur. Her new book, The After Party, is out, and she is going to talk about all things friendship, cocktails, murder, revenge, and nostalgia. Because this book was inspired by the movie 9 to 5, we also take a deep dive into nostalgia and, you know, revenge stories, ‘cause we like those a lot.
Speaking of revenge, I have a letter from a Patreon member, from Cara. Quick story:
I’ve been listening to the podcast for a while now, and although I didn’t know exactly what “Earl Had to Die” was referring to (very sheltered child, missed a lot of pop culture references), I got the gist of it when you talked about “Earl Had to Die” books – stories where shitty dudes get what’s coming to them.
Please enjoy Zeb digging a hole in the carpet.
I did briefly think it was Earl as in an earl, like a member of the nobility in a historical romance, but the basic idea holds. Nobility obviously aren’t exempt from being shitty dudes.
So today, I was at the salon getting my hair dyed purple, and my stylist and I are talking about music we listened to as kids before we actually really understood what the words meant. She brought up The Chicks, and mentioned “Sin Wagon” and “Earl Had to Die”, and then corrected herself that the name of the song is actually “Goodbye Earl”.
And naturally, she got a whole earful of “WAIT IS THAT A SONG? IS THAT WHAT THAT IS? THERE’S THIS GREAT PODCAST AND THEY TALK ABOUT EARL-HAD-TO-DIE BOOKS AND I DIDN’T KNOW WHAT THIS WAS FROM and this makes so much more sense now but also can we listen to it please?” I was supposed to be holding still at the time. I was very much not holding still.
tl;dr: Big shoutout to my stylist for filling in this formative cultural experience that I clearly missed. And now I know who Earl is, and why he had to die.
Love the podcast, truly – it makes my awful commute much more bearable.
Thank you, Cara! Well, you know, you’re really going to enjoy this episode because, speaking of Earl Had to Die, that’s a big theme in this book.
Thank you, as always, to our Patreon community, Cara, and everyone who makes the show transcripts possible every week. If you would like to have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches, you’ll find all the details.
This episode is brought to you by Once a Laird by Mary Jo Putney. After the death of his fiancée, Kai Ramsay left Scotland to roam distant lands. He has lived on the edge of danger for years, but everything changes the day a letter arrives for him from Scotland. Signy Matheson has dedicated her life to the people of Scotland’s remote Thorsay Islands. She’s a faithful ally to the aging laird, but now their leader is near death, and Signy must summon his successor home. It is time for Kai Ramsay to return to Scotland, but when he returns he’s shocked to find that Signy has blossomed into an alluring beauty, and a force to be reckoned with. Their complicated past interferes with their unspoken desire as they work together for their people. Blending romance and a mystery and a treasure hunt, Once a Laird by Mary Jo Putney is available now wherever books are sold. Find out more at kensingtonbooks.com.
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In the book The After Party three women, Venus, Draya, and Jackie, commiserate after their company’s holiday party about their absolutely terrible, demoralizing, crappy boss. But when he turns up dead the next day, they find the body, and they have to work together to find out who killed him and make sure none of them take the fall for it.
So let’s get started with my conversation with A.C. Arthur. On with the podcast.
[music]
A.C. Arthur: I am A.C. Arthur, and I write contemporary and paranormal romance. I also write under a couple of pen names, but mostly, the most prominent pen name is Lacey Baker, where I write heartwarming romance.
What else is interesting? I have an English Bulldog who is currently snoring in my office, and so you may hear him.
Sarah: Excellent. What’s his name? I need his name for, you know, purposes.
A.C.: His name is Vader, but really –
Sarah: [Laughs]
A.C.: – really he likes to be called Handsome Guy, which is what I call him all the time. [Laughs] ‘Cause he’s a handsome guy.
Sarah: I mean, if you, if you’re going to choose what you answer to, Handsome Guy.
A.C.: [Laughs] And he does answer to it, and my husband hates it. He’s like, why does he answer that? And I’m like, ‘cause that’s his name!
Sarah: Because it –
A.C.: Handsome Guy!
Sarah: – that’s what The Lady calls me!
A.C.: He knows he’s handsome!
Sarah: Right!
A.C.: He perks all up; his little, his ears perk up. He knows he’s handsome!
Sarah: All right, so I hope that we can, we get snoring in the podcast now, because –
A.C.: [Laughs]
Sarah: – I also have dogs that snore and also that bark during podcasts, so I’m –
A.C.: Mm-hmm!
Sarah: – Handsome Man will have to have his own line in the transcript; that’s very important.
A.C.: He might. He might.
Sarah: Excellent!
Congratulations on the release of The After Party.
A.C.: Yay! Thank you, thank you.
Sarah: You must be so excited. This is a little different than the heartwarming Lacey Baker books, this one.
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Little bit.
A.C.: This is very different. It’s even different from the sexy, steamy A.C. Arthur stuff that I write, so I am really, really excited about this one.
Sarah: This must have felt like so much freedom when writing. Like I’m going to do something totally new!
A.C.: Absolutely, absolutely. There was just, there – it felt like there were no boundaries. I could just write wherever came to mind, and in some, in some instances I did, and then my editor came back later and was like, okay, that’s a little bit too far.
[Laughter]
Sarah: So what will readers find inside this book?
A.C.: There’s a little of everything. There’s a little friendship goals; there’s a little murder mystery; there’s some sexytimes. There’s a few come-to-Jesus moments, ‘cause you absolutely need those. There’s laughter; there’s a little bit of Christmas. Lots of drinking.
Sarah: [Laughs] I noticed that! There’s –
A.C.: Lots of drinking. [Laughs]
Sarah: There’s, there’s a lot of cocktail conferences –
A.C.: Yeah.
Sarah: – in this book.
A.C.: And you know what’s funny is, I don’t drink.
[Laughter]
A.C.: I do not drink, and so when I was writing I was like, well, you know, a lot of women drink, so let’s have them drinking. I don’t want to have them, you know, smoking weed the entire time, so let’s have them drink! And so I had to ask people –
Sarah: [Laughs]
A.C.: – like, okay, well, when you go out, what do you drink? Like, what are you ordering? What drinks are in your refrigerator? ‘Cause I don’t, I don’t drink, so I don’t know.
Sarah: Yeah, and it’s like a, it’s like a whole field.
A.C.: It is! ‘Cause they were giving me all in-depth answers, and I was like, well, wait a minute, let me write this down! What is this? Like, I thought they were going to say something easy like, oh, it’s Scotch, but no, they’re, like, getting into all these brands and what types of wine they like, and I was like, this is a lot of work!
Sarah: I’m curious: what was, what were the most common answers when you asked people, when you go out, what do you drink?
A.C.: What was really funny is, so the, one particular person that I was asking, a coworker of mine, and she’s a lot younger than I am, and so she goes out a lot more, and she –
Sarah: Young people, I tell you.
A.C.: – said, she’s like, oh, I always, I like to get a – and I know I’m going to say it wrong – a pinot noir, what – and I was like, what? And she’s like, you know, it’s wine! And I was like, really? ‘Cause I’m expecting you to say something like, hardcore like vodka or Hennessy. Like, my girlfriend’s daughter drinks Hennessy all the time, which is why I knew about Hennessy, but she’s like, oh no, I always start with wine. I get a nice wine, and – and I was like, with your cocktails? And she’s like – I said, with, you know, with, you’re sitting at the bar and you’re drinking, like, eating, like, cocktail nuts? And she’s like, yeah, well, the way you just made it sound isn’t classy, but yeah, that’s what I drink!
Sarah: [Laughs]
A.C.: And I said, you know, I’m just, I’m just trying to wrap my mind around all of this, ‘cause, you know, it’s new for me!
Sarah: Oh yeah!
A.C.: But, like, I could see it, I could see it in my mind. And I, I talked to those particular coworkers a lot while I was writing this, and there were just things that they did that I knew they were like in the same age group as the characters in this, so I talked to them a lot, because I was like, this is what they’re doing at this age, and so I absolutely have to incorporate this.
Sarah: Oh, of course!
A.C.: Mm-hmm!
Sarah: I’m always fascinated by people younger than me who go out. Like, what, where do you get this energy?
A.C.: Right! Right! How does that – I mean, like, we’re at work at the same time. Like, we’re working the same amount of hours, and then I go home and go to bed. Like, I’m in –
Sarah: Yep!
A.C.: – I’m in bed at eight, and at eight your, your night is just starting, and I don’t understand how that works. [Laughs]
Sarah: Like, and you, and you can’t just wear, like, you know, fluffy, soft pajamas. You, you’ve got to dress up.
A.C.: No.
Sarah: Like, what?
A.C.: They would get, they got all dressed up, and I’m like, so you’re at work and you’re dressed, and then you go home and you change into a whole different outfit, like heels, and you’re doing your hair and makeup, and I was like, this, this is a lot of work! It’s like you lead two different lives here!
Sarah: Yeah! It’s, it’s quite an investment of time, and –
A.C.: It is, and I’m, I’m really okay with just my one life.
Sarah: Yeah, I like 8 p.m. bedtime myself; I’m a big fan.
A.C.: Absolutely! Absolutely!
Sarah: But it’s funny because people get really committed to their, to, not only to going out, but also to the things that they drink when they’re going out? It’s like part of the ritual?
A.C.: Yep, yep. And they have to have it! And then –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – even when they have parties at home, they’re, like, going out and buying all of these specific drinks –
Sarah: Yeah!
A.C.: – that they like!
Sarah: Oh yeah.
A.C.: And it’s so, it’s so weird. My youngest daughter just graduated from college, and we just did a little drive-by, like, you know, drive by, everybody say congratulations and –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
A.C.: – and she’s like, oh no, everybody has to come up on the driveway with me and have a shot with me, and I was like, what?
Sarah: [Laughs]
A.C.: And so her, her dad’s like, yeah, she can do that, she can do that; that’s fine. And then she’s, she has this list of all of these drinks she wants him to buy. She’s like, I need you to go to the liquor store and buy this and this and this and this, and I’m like – like, she had them all lined up on the table, and I was afraid the neighbors were going to come out and think we were opening up a bar!
Sarah: [Laughs] Sorry, do you have a license for this party?
A.C.: [Laughs] Right!
Sarah: Liquor control board comes by: hi, yes?
A.C.: But it’s just, it’s just a really big thing!
Sarah: Yeah! Yeah, it’s a whole thing.
A.C.: And I don’t, I don’t remember that when I was younger, so.
Sarah: I never liked going out when I was younger, just because –
A.C.: Hmm.
Sarah: – clearly I have always been meant to be the person who goes to bed at eight o’clock, but when I turned twenty-one, I just did not understand the point of getting dressed up into clothes that I would have to pay to clean, ‘cause you know –
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – dress clothes back then were dry clean only, so I’d have to pay –
A.C.: Yep.
Sarah: – to have them cleaned; I could just chuck them in the washing machine. And I’d get dressed up –
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: – and this was, you know, back in the day when you could smoke inside bars, so I’d be going into a place where I would have to clean my clothes and my hair and me, ‘cause I would smell weird when I came out.
A.C.: All the smoke, yeah.
Sarah: And then I would be in a place that was so loud I couldn’t talk to the people I was with, and I remember very clearly one night doing this right after I’d turned twenty-one, ‘cause you’re supposed to be like, woohoo, party! I’m like, this is not fun! I don’t understand! [Laughs]
A.C.: And it’s expensive!
Sarah: It’s so expensive!
A.C.: It’s expensive! A lot of places, you’re paying to get in; you have a drink minimum.
Sarah: Yep!
A.C.: My husband and I went to a comedy show. My cousin is a comedienne and we went to her show when she was here locally, and we had to pay for the ticket –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – and then there was a drink minimum –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – and it was like, okay, well, I don’t drink, so what’s going to happen? Do I still have to do it? And they were like, yeah, you still have to meet the drink minimum. I’m like –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – well, what’s the minimum? They’re like, three drinks. So I have to drink three Sprites while I’m sitting here for this two-hour show. Like, it was –
Sarah: Do you get your own ladies’ room?
A.C.: – it was so much money!
Sarah: I know!
A.C.: And then, and they wouldn’t let you out until your drink minimum was verified; like, your little drink tab had to be verified –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – before they would even let you out. I was like, oh, they’re going to keep me in here like I’m a hostage now ‘cause I won’t drink another Sprite? It was just, it was so ridiculous.
Sarah: Absolutely silliest stuff.
A.C.: It was.
Sarah: The thing, one of the things I love about the amount of time that the characters in The After Party spend together when they’re drinking and plotting –
A.C.: [Laughs]
Sarah: – and drink-plotting and plotting to drink, and, and what – it’s really hard for me sometimes to do an interview when I’ve read the book, but the book is just coming out, so I don’t want to spoil it, so I’m not going to spoil anything.
A.C.: Right. Okay.
Sarah: They spend a lot of time drinking together, and it forges a lot of the connections between them –
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and I know some people describe drinking or going out for drinks as like a social lubrication, and for them –
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: – it enables them to (a) go through a really terrible experience together professionally and then go through an even more terrible experience together professionally –
A.C.: [Laughs]
Sarah: – and they’re already at this sort of No-B.S. level, and then the drinking just adds to that.
A.C.: Right, exactly. And it just, like, opens the door for them where they would otherwise be a little more reserved about getting too personal.
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: The drinking sort of like lets down their guard, and so we’re, you know, they are like No B.S., that’s just who they are, but then they get to be really, really No B.S. Like, this is the real me –
Sarah: Yeah!
A.C.: – and it creates this vulnerability in them that I think starts to forge that friendship, and, and it lasts, and they need that.
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: Like, there were instances later in the book where I felt like, oh, they might need to go to a Happy Hour, because it was in those moments where they seemed to be the strongest, when they were really, really communicating the best.
Sarah: Yes. Yes –
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and when they were able to both relax a little bit –
A.C.: Mm-hmm!
Sarah: – and also lean on each other, because they –
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: – go through a series of really difficult things.
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: And one of the things that I really admire about how the book was set up initially is that it’s very clear right away how much they, as Black women, have to pretend like the things that are happening are okay when they really, really, really are not.
A.C.: Yes, yes. [Laughs] It’s funny you brought that up, just ‘cause someone else mentioned that to me, and I was like, you know, I didn’t think of that intentionally?
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: And you know why I didn’t think of it intentionally? Because I’m that Black woman. And so all of that was just so natural –
Sarah: Yep!
A.C.: – to me, those scenarios that they were, some of the scenarios that they were in and the way that they thought, because this is what I do, this is what I do every day.
Sarah: Yeah!
A.C.: It is what the people that I know do, and so I would, you know, bounce questions off of them and, like, hey, what would you do in this scenario? ‘Cause knowing that I’m writing these characters that are much younger than I am, I wanted to make sure that I was not always reacting as the older woman. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yes.
A.C.: And so I would say, hey, look, if you were in this scenario, if this is happening, what would you do? What would you say? Just to make sure that I was on point, and that would make me think about the differences between the movie –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
A.C.: – 9 to 5 and the, the story that I was trying to write.
Sarah: Yes! So I want, let’s talk about that. It’s my favorite part about this book –
A.C.: Okay!
Sarah: – and I’m, like, so excited to talk about 9 to 5, oh my gosh! Okay.
A.C.: [Laughs]
Sarah: So this is, this is a tricky question: what is in, in, when you tell somebody, oh, you wrote a book! What’s it about? What is The After Party about? What happens in The After Party?
A.C.: Three women hate their boss, and their boss ends up dead, and then they spend their time trying to not be arrested for their boss’s death.
Sarah: Okay! So obviously a major inspiration here is 9 to 5.
A.C.: [Laughs]
Sarah: Which is a movie I absolutely love?
A.C.: Mm-hmm?
Sarah: Love, love, love. So tell me about your history with the 9 to 5 movie.
A.C.: Oh! It’s such a – and every time I think about it I think, wow, you have really carried this all of your life, and this is kind of crazy! But so I was a young girl, seven or eight, something around that age, when we first got cable, and we had cable before anybody else in our family had cable, so I was all like, I was It!
[Laughter]
A.C.: And so my father would have me watching all kinds of stuff on cable. Like, he had me watch Poltergeist and scared me to death, and I was like, okay, dad, the next movie you pick has to be something that’s not going to scare me to death.
Sarah: Oh my God, Poltergeist scared me too!
A.C.: Oh my gosh, I was so scared! I was scared for months after I watched Poltergeist.
Sarah: I was, my closet was across from my bed, and I was afraid to go to bed because the closet was right there!
A.C.: Yes!
Sarah: What were you going to do, move the closet? No! Nope!
A.C.: And I’m closing doors at night –
Sarah: Yes!
A.C.: – and then the doors are closed, and then I’m like, nobody can come and help me, and it was horrible, so I was like, you, you have – and, and my mother was like, okay, she’s never going to sleep. You have to stop letting her watch these movies. So the next movie he said, oh, this is funny! Watch this one! So I watched 9 to 5. And it was funny.
Sarah: Oh –
A.C.: Like, you know, I’m this little girl and I’m watching these women, you know, with this dead body in the hospital, and he’s in the trunk of the car, and they don’t even – and, and it’s the wrong body, and, like, it was just hilarious to me! And so then, from then on, every time it came on, wherever it was in the movie, I would just stop and just watch it. Like –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – no more channel searching, surfing; I’m going to watch this movie! It came on less and less, you know, after the popularity waned on it, but every time I saw it I just liked it! But what I noticed is that as I started to watch it later in my teen years, it took on a different meaning. Like, it was still a really fun movie to watch, but I had started working through the work-study program my last year in high school, and so I was in an office. Now I could really correlate some of these things that are happening in this movie to what I’m sitting in this office hearing –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – and experiencing, and I was like, wow, this is, like, really true! This is what happens! This is how bosses are talking to people! And then I noticed, you know, this is how bosses are talking to women –
Sarah: Yep!
A.C.: – not to people; just to women! And I worked for a lot of attorneys and –
Sarah: Oh boy.
A.C.: – there was always the, you know, yeah, can you, can you go get lunch, and can you pick up this for my wife, and can you call and order this for my wife? And there was a lot of that, and at that time I started to feel like, oh, well, this is the real world, this is how it is in the real world, ‘cause I’ve seen it in this movie that I love –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – so this is the real world. And then, you know, I get a little older, a little older, and I’m still watching this movie and I’m still in the work world, and then it starts to hit me that, well, you know, you really don’t have to stand for these things, ‘cause they absolutely didn’t stand for these things – [laughs] – in 9 to 5 –
Sarah: Nope.
A.C.: – and then I became this, I can say no to these things and not feel afraid. I mean, I think at that point I could not feel afraid about losing my job ‘cause I was still living at home with my mother, so it was like, okay. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: I do, I still have a home, so it’s okay, but I just began to see the movie differently as an adult.
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: It’s still a really, really fun movie, but at the same time it’s a really important movie.
Sarah: Yes!
A.C.: There were really important issues that were addressed in that movie, and when I decided to write The After Party, I knew that I still needed to tackle some important issues –
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: – but clearly the issues today are different than the issues of, of 9 to 5, and so I had to kind of figure out how I was going to navigate those differences.
Sarah: And the differences are kind of astonishing, as well as the similarities?
A.C.: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Sarah: Like, people are still dealing with that level of sexism and –
A.C.: Yeah.
Sarah: – pervasive failing upwards of incompetent people, usually –
A.C.: Yeah.
Sarah: – white dudes. Like, that is –
A.C.: Yeah! [Laughs]
Sarah: – that is still –
A.C.: Mm-hmm!
Sarah: – still happening; it probably happened twenty minutes ago. We just don’t know about it!
A.C.: It is – you’re right! You’re right!
Sarah: So when you decided to take 9 to 5 and create The After Party, where did you start?
A.C.: I immediately started at how they’re going to imagine he’s dead, because that’s, like, my favorite scene.
Sarah: [Laughs]
A.C.: And so I wanted to immediately get that down. Like –
Sarah: Yep!
A.C.: – I knew that was the point this book needed to start. So the movie doesn’t start there; the movie gives you a lot of, lot more background, but I was like, no, I’m going to start right here. I’m going to jump right in –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
A.C.: – and have him die, and I decided that he was going – oh, I’m telling the book – but I decided that he was going to die. Clearly in 9 to 5 –
Sarah: It’s in the cover copy; it’s fine. He’s dead.
A.C.: – the boss didn’t die.
Sarah: Yeah, yeah.
A.C.: But I decided very early on, he’s just going to die.
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: ‘Cause he’s just horrible, and if I keep him from going throughout the entire book, somebody’s going to stab him in the throat anyway, so let’s just go ahead and kill him now. So he just needed to die.
Sarah: I support this decision. Earl Had to Die is my new favorite subgenre.
A.C.: Okay. [Laughs] It is! I mean, it just, it – I could have drawn it out, I guess.
Sarah: Nah.
A.C.: I wanted it to be so much more about the women –
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: – and how they grow through the experience –
Sarah: Yes.
A.C.: – and so I figured, let’s just get this out of the way now. He just needs to go, and then they can start their journey.
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: Because he really was just hindering their journey anyway, so he just needed to go.
Sarah: He was in all of their ways.
A.C.: He was! He was. And I –
Sarah: Taking up so much space.
A.C.: I was so irritated with him the whole time –
Sarah: [Laughs]
A.C.: – and then there were moments when I thought, hey, is he too bad? Like, is he unrealistically bad? But then I was like, no, because you can watch the news and you can, there’s so many stories about –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
A.C.: – men saying horrible things or doing horrible things. I was like, no, this is lightweight –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – compared to what’s, like, really happening out here.
Sarah: Yep. I have not worked in an office environment for ten plus years. So I’ve been –
A.C.: Mm!
Sarah: – self-employed for ten years, and the minute –
A.C.: Yay!
Sarah: – even in the opening scenes when they’re –
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – in the party, and he is just absolutely dreadful –
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – passing her over for work she’s done, letting some other guy take – I was like, I know that guy; I know that guy; I know that other guy. I know all these guys. I have worked with all these guys. Like, there’s, there is nothing that is not possible in their behavior.
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: I’ve seen all of that.
A.C.: Exactly! Exactly. Exactly.
Sarah: So what parts of the film were you determined to, to keep, but what parts did you want to update?
A.C.: Like I said, I wanted to kill him; I decided to kill him early. I did not –
Sarah: Excellent.
A.C.: This is another one of those questions that I asked the younger women around me is that, in my mind, even as I watched that movie, I would always be like, yeah, I would never do that. And even, and I, every time I think about that part of the movie when they’re moving that dead body, I think about Weekend at Bernie’s, and I was like –
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: – who in the world would just be carrying around a dead body? Like, who’s maneuvering a dead body that much? I was like, I just would never do that! And so then I’d asked all the other girls, and they were like, yeah, Black women don’t do that; we not playing with no dead body. No! And so I knew that it was like, he has to die, and they have to get the hell away from this body! And that actually was like a segue into another really serious issue in that, you know, Black women and Black men, their relationship with police.
Sarah: Yes!
A.C.: Like, she has to get away from this body, but how, how does, how do they do that? And there’s al-, you know, there’s always a friend that’s like, that, like, common-sense friend. Yeah, guys, we’ve got to call the police. Like, we have to call the police. And then there’s the, yeah, but you know if we call the police, we’re the ones going to jail.
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: But we didn’t kill him! Yeah, but they don’t care. We’re going to go jail ‘cause we’re here standing over the body. So that whole scenario kind of just came, like, came organically out of the situation?
Sarah: Yeah, yeah.
A.C.: And I’m glad, ‘cause then when I went back to read it I was like, oh, this is a really good point!
Sarah: It adds to the stakes! They have to –
A.C.: Mm-hmm, right.
Sarah: – they have to depend on each other to figure out what happened and figure out how to not get, not get it pinned on them.
A.C.: Yes, yes. And while it seems like there’s always moments – I know when my editor and I were going back and forth with it, one of the things she kept saying was, okay, well, why don’t they just tell now? Well, why don’t they just tell? Well, why don’t – you know, ‘cause, like, if you’re watching a movie, you’re like, this would all be so much easier if they just tell.
Sarah: Yeah!
A.C.: But then there’s, so then that, I have the job of, like, oh no, okay, now I have to keep raising the stakes. I have to –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – keep giving reasons why –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – they can’t just tell! This is just going to be worse for them if they just tell, and so they don’t tell.
Sarah: Nope. The other thing that’s really interesting about their friendship is that the three of them don’t know each other super well –
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – outside of a professional environment, which, as we’ve talked about, is a, is a kind of a performance. You’re not your honest self –
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: – at work, especially in an environment where you’re one of only a few Black women, and –
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: – that can be all kinds of toxic and awful to deal with every day.
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: They have to –
A.C.: Mm-hmm!
Sarah: – learn to trust each other, and they have to, like you said earlier, learn to be vulnerable with each other and know that they’re always not, they’re, they’re always going to be able to depend on each other; none of them is going to be like, all right, that’s it, I’m going to the cops; I’m going to pin it on you.
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: Like, no one was going to do that.
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: That base level of trust was so instant. How, how important was that for you to develop between them? It was probably my favorite part.
A.C.: I think the, like you said, the, when you’re outnumbered in an office?
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: You do sometimes migrate together.
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: Like, it, well, why would they just start sitting at the same lunch table? Because this is the lunch table that the Black women are at. Like, why would you go sit somewhere else where it might be a danger zone for you when you can sit here? Even if they weren’t talking, because a lot of times they weren’t. They weren’t, like, becoming fast friends when they were at that lunch table; they were just kind of, this was our safety. Let’s just –
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: – let’s just be here because this is safe. Even if we aren’t talking to each other –
Sarah: Literally!
A.C.: – we’re still safe!
Sarah: Yes; I just want to sit here and eat my food and not deal with any nonsense –
A.C.: Right!
Sarah: – from anybody.
A.C.: But we’re safe –
Sarah: Yes.
A.C.: – and then as soon as this happens, they have to trust –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
A.C.: – they have to believe in the other, because your life is on the line.
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: Everything you hold dear is on the line. If this person tells, if this person tells, you’re out of luck, and so you have to trust them and you have to go along – and then there’s so many points where there’s still this distrust, where Draya is still like, yeah, I really still don’t trust y’all to – y’all, you know, y’all crazy and y’all do this, and, and I’m not really, really trusting you, and I know that Venus is still lying to us. Like, they still know, but nobody breaks that pact. Nobody breaks from that, from the threesome –
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: – but inside that threesome, they still know that there’s something going on with each other, and that is so, that is so true. Like, in your family, like –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
A.C.: – you know, you don’t – this is the united front we’re going to put up –
Sarah: Yep!
A.C.: – but when the doors close, we, we know it’s still something not right, and the way that Draya would always, like, hold Venus to that and, like, come for her in that way –
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: – like, I know you not trying to tell me what to do when you doing XYZ. I felt like that was so, that was so authentic, and it was so important to show that, to show that they can be this and they can be that –
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: – because they don’t have a choice!
Sarah: Right.
A.C.: They don’t have a choice.
Sarah: That if you come for the three of them, you’re going to be dealing with the three of them, but inside the three of them, they will be calling each other to account for all of their nonsense.
A.C.: Absolutely.
Sarah: Yes, that. It’s like taking a –
A.C.: Absolutely.
Sarah: – it’s like a, almost like a first-date conversation versus a we’ve-known-each-other-for-ten-years conversation?
A.C.: Mm-hmm!
Sarah: They move right into the we’ve-known-each-other-forever conversation –
A.C.: Yes.
Sarah: – but they also don’t know each other well, so that creates an imbalance in how much they know versus how much they have to trust.
A.C.: Yeah.
Sarah: So I know that when you wrote about 9 to 5, the movie, you had a favorite character. So, really hard question: one, who is your favorite character now? Is it still the same one? And – this is a terrible question – did you have a favorite character inside The After Party?
A.C.: [Disgruntled noise]
Sarah: Yeah, I told you it was an awful question.
A.C.: [Laughs] That is awful. So yes, my favorite character in 9 to 5 is still the same: it is still Violet Newstead. Violet was me; like, she was what I was going to be. As a child I always thought, you know, I’m going to work in an office, I’m going to be married, and I’m going to have a family. That was like my whole life’s goal. Like, this is, this is it, and when I do these things, like, I have arrived because I’ve done what I set out to do.
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: And so that was Violet; she was showing me this is how you do this. Like, you have the kids at home. I mean, obviously don’t take weed from your son and smoke it in a bar at lunchtime, but, you know, she, otherwise she’s showing me that you have this family and you have your job, and she did her job so well. She did her job and his job –
Sarah: Mm, yes.
A.C.: – so very well.
Sarah: [Laughs]
A.C.: And she’s training people. Like, she just had this command of herself until that moment she was in the hospital and she just, like, completely fell apart and decided to take the, wheel the body out of the hospital. But up, up until that moment, like, she was so – and even after that. Even after she took the wrong body, she still kind of like regained that control.
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: And she decided, okay, now, well, this is what we’re going to do, and she did all of those things. Like, she did all the things she set out to do, and I just admired that strength in her. So yes, she’s still my favorite character.
Oh my goodness, this really hard question about The After Party.
Sarah: [Laughs]
A.C.: So – [laughs] – it started out when I started writing After Party, Venus was my favorite. My outline for Venus, where I felt like she needed to go – she was my favorite; hands down, she was my favorite. Towards the end, like I would say maybe my second round of edits, Draya kind of grew on me a little bit more?
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: Just because I really liked her honesty and just the way she was so not afraid to live her truth and not afraid to tell you that you should be living your truth as well. Like, I – and then, and then there was some, those, those moments where she was still vulnerable, but she was still who she was. Like, she was never going to apologize for sleeping her way to the top. Like, that, that was her thing, and I’m never apologizing for that because, you know, not to tell the story, but because this is who I was made to be.
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: For the circumstances in my path, this is how I got to where I am. And I’m going to own that!
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: I, I have to own that, because without that I would not be this person. So I did, she did, she grew on me a lot.
Sarah: She definitely accepts herself and accepts the choices that she’s made?
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: A lot like Violet in that regard.
A.C.: Yes. Yes.
Sarah: Like, all right, I have, I have made some, some choices that have compromised who I think I am –
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – but I’m going to own those choices, and I’m going to figure out what to do. They both trust themselves very, very much.
A.C.: Yeah. Yes. You see, I, when I, when I named them, I tried to, like, I was like, oh, I’m going to give them the same letters of the same name that I want them to be, so Venus really was meant to be Violet, but Draya kind of just came in and took over.
Sarah: And the thing about Violet and, and Draya is that their confidence comes from knowing that they have received a lot of messages about why they should doubt themselves –
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and why they should question what they want and question their ambition?
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: And, and they are, they’re both able to look at their own levels of confidence and ambition and say, yeah, nope, not, nope, I’m going to do it –
A.C.: I’m still going to be who I am –
Sarah: Yep! Going to do it anyway!
A.C.: – and you can’t take that, and –
Sarah: Yeah!
A.C.: – I don’t care what you say; I don’t care, you know, what you’re trying to maneuver me, manipulate me. Like, Draya was just like, look, you know, I’m, I’m going to be here, and no, I’m not sleeping with you anymore, and I’m not going to allow you to use, you know, what we’ve had to hold –
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: – to make me be in this position anymore. I’m done with – I got what I needed to get from it. And for me that was such an empowering thing for her, because normally, you know, it’s the man who says, well, I, I’m finished with this. I did what I needed to do, and now I’m moving on.
Sarah: Yep!
A.C.: But she was saying it. She got to say it this time, and she meant it! Like, and she, even though she had to say it to him more than once, ‘cause, you know, he, who he is, she said it and she meant it!
Sarah: And when she stands up for herself, you could tell she’s, she has worked really, really hard in her past –
A.C.: Yes.
Sarah: – to come up with the ability to do that.
A.C.: And, and that was, that was solitary work. You know –
Sarah: Yes!
A.C.: – because she was so young, it wasn’t like she had a therapist or she had school counselors or any type of adults that were helping her. Like, she did all of that on her own.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
A.C.: And she wasn’t – and then there were the moments where you, you knew that she, she wasn’t really healed from that. Like, she had this strength and this courage from that, but she wasn’t healed. I like that she, she had the vulnerabilities, but still she, she still could be really, really strong, and I think that for women it’s very important to, I think, have a balance of both. I think sometimes women, we don’t want to appear to be weak, but I think there are moments when that vulnerability, it still strengthens you. I think for, as a Black woman, we have this thing where we’re cautious about being the Angry Black Woman, and so we have to be the strong Black woman all the time –
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: – and never ever show any of these weaknesses or any doubts. And it’s hard! That’s, it’s, it’s a hard balance. It’s a hard balance to keep up.
Sarah: It’s very hard.
A.C.: Yeah.
Sarah: And it’s an inhumane expectation.
A.C.: It is.
Sarah: ‘Cause we are humans, and we have vulnerabilities, and things get to us –
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and the things that get to me might be different from the things that get to somebody else, but we should all be able to express that and be accepted for being humans.
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: Right.
Sarah: So you’ve written that 9 to 5, the movie, is something that no matter how many times you’ve seen it, you enjoy it for the first time. Now you’ve written a book – do you still enjoy the movie? Does it still work on you?
A.C.: Absolutely.
Sarah: Oh, yay! Good!
A.C.: Absolutely. I watched, I watched it a couple weeks ago. I do. I do. It is still one of my favorite movies. Like, I bought the DVD and my kids were like, why, why do you keep buying old DVDs? First, they don’t understand why I buy DVDs period. Like, you know, everything is on streaming, and I’m like, no, everything is not.
Sarah: Not everything is on streaming!
A.C.: Not everything I want to see. 9 to 5 is not on streaming! Hopefully –
Sarah: It’s a travesty!
A.C.: – hopefully somebody at a network will read The After Party and say, hey, you know, we should be streaming 9 to 5.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
A.C.: Yes, you should!
Sarah: Yes, you should.
A.C.: So I buy movies that I like, especially older movies; I watch a lot of older movies. I buy them so that way I can watch them whenever I feel like it. I actually have a lot of Lily Tomlin, because after 9 to 5 I just, like, love Lily Tomlin, and I love her even more in Grace and Frankie ‘cause she’s just –
Sarah: Oh!
A.C.: – [laughs] – I just love her! I don’t – I just, I love the honesty of the characters that she plays. So yes, it’s still one of my favorite movies.
Sarah: That’s so great! The magic hasn’t stopped for you ‘cause it’s such a good movie!
A.C.: Not at all, not at all.
Sarah: It’s such a good movie!
A.C.: It is, it really is.
Sarah: It has aged. I mean, there is some whoo! ‘70s.
A.C.: Yeah!
Sarah: There’s a lot of paneling.
A.C.: And it’s funny, when you watch older movies you’re like, this couldn’t be in a movie now. Like, they would never –
Sarah: Nope.
A.C.: – allow this now. Like, did he just say that? Like – there’s shows that I watch – I, I said on Twitter a few weeks ago that, like, I just found Little House on the Prairie.
Sarah: Oh God.
A.C.: Like, I knew about Little House on the Prairie –
Sarah: Right.
A.C.: – but I had never watched it –
Sarah: Yup.
A.C.: – and then this one day I’m, like, flicking channels, and there’s this girl and she’s faking being paralyzed, and I’m like, why is that – ? Well, now I have to watch it and see what happens when she gets caught! And now every day I watch at least one episode of Little House on the Prairie. Like, when I’m channel surfing I’m like, oh, Little House on the Prairie is on! And so I watch it, and it’s so weird! But there’s so many things that are, like, so awful –
Sarah: Oh gosh.
A.C.: – happening in that, and, like, oh, this could never, this could never be today! Like –
Sarah: Oh –
A.C.: – they could never make a show like this and have it on prime time television today because this was so bad! But it’s so good! Like, I still keep watching it. It’s so weird.
Sarah: Isn’t it strange when you can feel the nostalgia pull of your younger self, even as your –
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – older, contemporary self is like, wait a minute?
A.C.: Yeah, yeah.
Sarah: Wait a minute! Like, there’s this, almost this push-pull like yes, the nostalgia works and it’s really working! And yes, wow, that was really racist. [Laughs]
A.C.: Right! Like, this is so problematic! Like I want –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
A.C.: – another one I love is, I love I Love Lucy, and I watch that, and I’m like, that’s just so horrible. Like, this –
Sarah: [Laughs]
A.C.: – it was, women, were you really doing this? Like, this was – but I love it and I keep watching it.
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: But it’s so problematic now. And I, and I can watch those movies and things and say it’s problematic, and I know a lot of people who tend to say, oh, I’m not going to watch it anymore because it’s problematic, and I, I get that, but, like you said, it’s that nostalgia! Like, this, this was my childhood –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – and I always say that, like, I Love Lucy is my comfort show.
Sarah: Oh yeah.
A.C.: Like, if I have been, like, in deadline hell and I’ve been just writing, writing, writing, writing, writing, writing, as soon as I finish that book I put on I Love Lucy, because that is my comfort. I know – and I’m not even really watching it!
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: I know all the episodes, so really I’m, I don’t have to even, like, sit there and pay all the attention, but I hear it.
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: Those sounds, the music, and it’s just comforting!
Sarah: It’s a very specific alchemy, isn’t it?
A.C.: Mm-hmm!
Sarah: Something like I Love Lucy, the comedic beats are almost always in the same place; the music is evocative –
A.C.: Yeah.
Sarah: – in the same way; it’s the same sound.
A.C.: Yeah.
Sarah: The, even the canned laughter is a very specific kind of canned laughter?
A.C.: [Laughs] Yeah!
Sarah: And if that is going to, like, zero in on your nostalgia comfort? Then that’s –
A.C.: Yeah.
Sarah: – what’s going to zero in on your nostalgia comfort!
A.C.: That’s, yeah, that’s just what it is. I just accept it. My kids say that makes me weird, but it’s okay.
Sarah: [Laughs]
A.C.: I, I’ve embraced the weirdness.
Sarah: That’s okay; at this point, I mean, you don’t really have much of a choice, right?
A.C.: Right! Like, well, I’m not changing, so.
Sarah: Nope. Nope, nope, nope!
A.C.: [Laughs]
Sarah: Now, I do want to ask about one aspect of the, of The After Party. Was it a challenge to write both a friendship story and a murder mystery?
A.C.: Yes.
Sarah: I was going to say, because that’s two very different –
A.C.: Yes. And it –
Sarah: I mean, you could have had just the friendship story and it would have been marketed in one particular genre, or it could have been –
A.C.: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – just the murder mystery; that would have been a slightly different genre, and you’re combining them!
A.C.: And you sound just like my editor, ‘cause that’s exactly what she said when she read the whole book. She’s like –
Sarah: [Laughs] Sorry, giving you flashbacks!
A.C.: She’s like, she’s like, okay, well, you know you could take one of these out. Like, you don’t – which –
Sarah: No, it’s better that you don’t.
A.C.: – which story do you really want to tell? Like, because you could take one of these out, and I was like, no! This is the story! Like, the story I want to tell connects both of them. Focus of this story is the women; that’s why I killed him early –
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: – is because I really just want to focus on these women and how they navigate through their professional lives, their family, this, their love lives, and this murder. How do they do all of these things and in the end come out better for it?
Sarah: So what are you working on right now?
A.C.: So I just finished the second draft of my next women’s fiction, which will come out in, I think, May of 2022, and that is called Happy Is on Hiatus. You can always tell that I watch TV way too much, because that leans very heavily to another movie that I love – [laughs] – and that’s, and that’s the Soul Food movie? It’s about – my editor said this the other day; she said, you know, this is really about family, faith, and food. That’s what it’s about.
Sarah: Oh, yep, that’s your tag line.
A.C.: That’s what it’s about.
Sarah: All right, so I always ask this: what are you reading that you want to tell people about?
A.C.: Ooh! I don’t, I don’t get a lot of time to read. If I’m, like, in a deadline crunch I can’t read, ‘cause I’m like, I’ll, I’ll always feel guilty. I’m like, you’re sitting here reading this book, and you could be working.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
A.C.: And so I won’t really read, but as soon as I finished with Happy, I, I was going through my Kindle and I had so many books on there, and I wanted something, sometimes I want like a palate cleanser.
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: I want something that’s really different from what I wrote –
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: – and Happy doesn’t have a murder mystery in it like After Party does –
Sarah: Right.
A.C.: – and so I picked Thick as Thieves by Sandra Brown, which was so good!
Sarah: Oh –
A.C.: Like, I read this book in like three days. It was so good! And I needed that! Like, I needed that difference versus what I’ve been writing.
So I finished that, and I had heard a lot about the Tia Williams book, the Seven Days in June –
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: – and so I have that set to read next.
Sarah: Ooh. Do you have any movie recommendations?
A.C.: Because I’m also Lacey Baker and Lacey Baker is about to release the Hallmark movie that I wrote as Lacey Baker –
Sarah: Oh my gosh, congratulations!
A.C.: Thank you! Thank you, thank you. Christmas is always on my mind. Always. Like, I’m Christmas 24/7, and so I only really can talk about Christmas movies right now, because –
Sarah: It is the season.
A.C.: – Christmas – well, and I’m preparing to – it’s funny ‘cause I’ll be promoting a Christmas in Evergreen book and The After Party at the same time. So.
Sarah: Oh, don’t get those mixed up.
A.C.: Right, ‘cause Christmas in Evergreen releases November 2nd –
Sarah: Oh geeze!
A.C.: – and The After Party releases November 9th, so I’m like doing this simultaneous thing, and so I have Christmas going over here and Hennessy going over here, and this is like a lot. But I saw the same Christmas movies! One of my favorite Christmas movies is Miracle on 34th Street.
Sarah: Yep.
A.C.: I watched that a lot while I was writing Evergreen earlier this year, and I listen to a lot of Christmas music, like, all the time, so.
Sarah: It’s another example of that alchemy that, like, zeroes in on the nostalgia button.
A.C.: And I stay there. Like, I’m, like, stuck in that whole time zone. But it’s just so much, it’s so much comfort there, and, like, there’s so much – there’s just a lot going on in the world.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
A.C.: I work in a courthouse; I’m an assistant to a judge, and so there’s so much turbulence going on –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
A.C.: – there.
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: Court cases and murders, and then you come home and you watch TV and there’s murders and people are missing and hurricanes. It’s just, it’s so heavy!
Sarah: Yeah.
A.C.: And so I do tend to just retreat to the things that I know are going to give me a happy feeling.
Sarah: Thank you so much for doing this interview. I, I really appreciate it, and congratulations on all of the things – you have so many good things to celebrate this year!
A.C.: Thank you, thank you. I thank you, and I do not take any of them for granted. Like, this life is, this life is hard, but I tell people all the time I wouldn’t change it. I’m really excited to be where I am now. I’m excited about the projects that are coming up, and I appreciate you having me here.
[music]
Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to A.C. Arthur for hanging out with me, and thank you to her publicist for sending me a copy of this book.
If you would like to find out more or look up some of the movies we talked about, head over to the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, because you know I’m going to put all of those in the show notes, right? Of course I am!
This podcast is brought to you in part by Headspace. If you’re like me your thoughts can be confusing enough, but meditation doesn’t have to be! Headspace is your convenient dose of meditation, mindfulness, and sleep exercises to relieve stress and anxiety and help you get a good night’s sleep all in one app, making it easy to catch your breath and make time for your mental health. And it’s one of the most science-backed meditation apps in the world, proving that meditation works. A study proved that in just two weeks Headspace can reduce your stress by fourteen percent. Now, I was skeptical and I wasn’t sure if it would work for me, but Headspace is a great addition to my day, and I have a free sample for you. Are you ready? Want to take a little break? All right, here we go:
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Sarah: Well, that was lovely. Find some Headspace at headspace.com/SARAH and get one month free of their entire meditation library. This is the best Headspace offer available, so go to headspace.com/SARAH today – headspace.com/SARAH.
As always, I end every episode with a truly dreadful joke, and this week is no different. Are you ready? You going to share this with all of your friends and people you don’t like particularly much? I think that’s a really good plan. Here we go:
Why do flamingos always lift one leg?
Give up? Why do flamingos always lift one leg?
Because if they lifted both they’d fall down.
[Laughs] I have, you know in the old Robin Hood, or no, it’s not Robin Hood, it’s Alice in Wonderland, when they’re bowling with flamingos? I always picture the flamingos like, no, no, no, no, we’re not, we’re not playing cro-, no, no croquet today. I’m going to go stand on one leg. [Laughs more] That comes from (FLAG _____ 50:33), and I am absolutely delighted with now all of the mental images that are bopping around in my brain.
I also want to take a minute to acknowledge the life of Petra Mayer, who passed away last weekend on the 13th of November. If you read the site you may have seen me trying to write about all of the ways in which she made my life, professionally and personally, so much better. She was also a guest on the podcast, talking about the summer of romance when there was suddenly a lot more romance on NPR. All of the genre fiction coverage that you saw on NPR was due in large part to Petra saying, no, we need to talk about romance, and we need to talk about fantasy, and yes, we need to talk about all the things. I am going to miss her tremendously much, and I will put a link to her episode in the show notes if you would like to revisit and find out why Warrior’s Woman is among her most favorite classic romance, or was among her most favorite classic romances. It is still not real to me that I will not hear from her saying, hey, let’s go to brunch for three hours and talk about books. So this episode is for Petra.
On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very, very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week!
Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to listen to at frolic.media/podcasts.
[quiet music]
This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.
What a delightful interview, and thank you for putting this book on my radar! My mother was a secretary, and 9-to-5 meant so much to her as a film.
I’ve worked in law offices, so yeah, working in that office context is special.
I would totally love if the author reweeted her rewatch of Little House on the Prairie. The autobiography of the actress who played Nellie Olsen is fab.
Just listened to this today and it’s so, so good! Thanks for putting this book and author on my radar.