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[music]
Sarah Wendell: Hello there. Thank you for taking a break with me and inviting me into your eardrums. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and this is episode number 455 – woohoo! – of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. My guest this week is Vanessa Riley. Her newest book, An Earl, the Girl, and a Toddler is out now, and we are going to talk about so many things. We talk about reframing history. We talk about the fantasy land of historical romance and the overlap between her background in mechanical engineering and her writing of romance.
I will have links to where you can find Vanessa Riley and all of her books in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.
This episode will also have a transcript [yep! – gk], which is brought to you in part by our Patreon community. Hello, Patreon community! Every pledge, beginning with one dollar per month, helps make sure that every episode has a transcript and is accessible to everyone. Thank you to garlicknitter for our transcripts and thank you and hello to Heather and Lindsey, who are our newest members of the Patreon community. If you would like to join, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. That’s patreon.com/SmartBitches.
We have several new sponsors this week, and I am very excited about this.
First, this episode is brought to you by June’s Journey, a Hidden Object mystery game that several folks in the comments at Smart Bitches have recommended before. June’s Journey is a Hidden Object murder mystery set in the ‘20s. You play as June Parker, who is an amateur detective investigating the mysterious death of her sister. You progress through the mystery story by gathering clues found in different scenes, and you level up by building and restoring a property where June is now living. There are so many different elements, but the heart of the game is the different puzzles, where you try to find as many objects hidden in a scene as quickly and as accurately as you can. True story: often when I book a sponsor for the podcast there is an onboarding phone call to go over the ad copy and to talk about other details, and last week I had a call on my calendar and I remember thinking, I wish I didn’t have this conference call ‘cause I could go play another round of June’s Journey. Turns out the call was about June’s Journey. So yeah, I really like it. It’s really fun. I really like the puzzle challenges, and I really like testing my memory with each round. I also like using it as a brain break when I’m working: I do a few puzzles, and then I go back to my to-do list with a happier brain because my brain loves solving things so much. You can join thirty million fans across the globe and awaken your inner detective with June’s Journey. It is free to download on your phone or tablet. You search for hidden objects and collect clues to solve a mystery. There are endless hours of fun with thousands of intricate scenes and new chapters every week. You can download June’s Journey for free today on the Apple App store or Google Play, and if you’re playing June’s Journey, please let me know what you think and how you like it.
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I really enjoyed my conversation with Vanessa Riley, and I hope you enjoy our conversation now. On with the podcast.
[music]
Vanessa Riley: I’m Vanessa Riley, and I’m a historical novelist and a historical romance writer!
Sarah: Fabulous!
Vanessa: I try and bring you engaging stories about the past in a present sort of sense.
Sarah: Congratulations on the release of the earl, An Earl, the Girl, and a Toddler – I knew I was going to mess up those articles.
[Laughter]
Sarah: I’m sorry! It’s even written down in front of me!
Vanessa: It, it’s, it is perfectly fine. I’m still amazed that they let me get away with this, okay?
Sarah: Is this your title? Did you come up with this?
Vanessa: These are my titles! I’m so psyched!
Sarah: Oh my gosh!
Vanessa: Yes.
Sarah: Got to keep your own titles! That’s very rare!
Vanessa: Very rare. And it’s like A Duke, the Lady, and a Baby, right? You know, you have –
Sarah: Right?
Vanessa: – An Earl, the Girl, and a Toddler. [Laughs]
Sarah: Love it! So what is, what is your elevator pitch for this book? What are, what will readers find inside this one?
Vanessa: In this one, I think you’re going to be surprised. We still have a little bit, we have a mystery going on; we still have the antics of The Widow’s Grace. Widow’s Grace, once again, is a secret organization of women who have gotten together to right the wrongs that happen, particularly to widows, across England, because, once again, if for some reason your husband’s family wasn’t particularly happy about you marrying or they had other issues or were just in generally mean people, they could hold up your widow’s dower, which was based on your dowry, that’s the income you’re supposed to live on, and they could do other things. They could take your children, and then you would get caught up in the Court of Chancery trying to get them back. So it’s, it’s this group, headed by Lady Shrewsbury, is, is, that’s what they’re supposed to do. And her nephew is Daniel Thackery. He’s our hero for the book.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: He has recently been elevated to be the Earl of Ashbrook. Daniel has very few things he wants in life. He, he’s fortunate; he’s a man of privilege. He, he has wealth. He’s trying to keep his aunt out of jail. That’s his thing, you know; he just wants to be able to go home with his dog and his daughter. Oh, and maybe a mistress. But that’s a whole ‘nother story that he’s looking for; you know, he’s got to have goals and whatnot, but his, his real thing is, there’s so much scrutiny on him. He is a Black man; he had a lot of scrutiny on him as a Black barrister. But he’s one of Prinny’s favorites, so people allow him certain positions, but he also knows the spotlight’s on him. And he’s just trying to figure out how to be a great single dad and, and how to move on with his life, because he’s a widower.
Sarah: There, there’s a parallel in that Daniel is only allowed to have the access and the privilege that he has so long as no one really gets in his way using the court system or any other legal mechanisms, and the heroine, she’s only allowed to have access to – or a widow, any widow is only allowed to have access as long as they don’t make too much of a fuss or make too many problems for the family, or otherwise the, the same mechanisms are going to be used to limit them as well.
Vanessa: Exactly. I, I love mirrors and talismans as I write, and, and that is a, a single mirror, because Jemina St. Maur, who is our amnesiac from book one, she’s trying to figure out who she is. She’s been given a fortune; she doesn’t even know where that came from! And she’s, you know, she’s got men after her now, trying to, to, to wed her, and she just, she doesn’t want any of that! She just wants to know who she is, who was she? She only has two years of her life, and Daniel seems to have the key to this, and he’s not telling her what’s going on.
Sarah: Not cool, dude.
Vanessa: Not cool.
Sarah: Not cool. And, I mean, let’s be real: there’s nothing more threatening then, now, and forever than an independent, thinking person with their own money.
Vanessa: Exactly!
Sarah: It’s terrifying! We can’t have that. Can’t be wandering around with money and your own thoughts; that’s just – and, and imagine if you had a, a uterus that was not under anyone else’s control but your own. Forget it! Mm-mm! No! Mm-mm. [Laughs]
Vanessa: Off to Bedlam with her!
Sarah: Yeah, exactly. She has to go. And you have packed this book with so much trope bingo. There’s, it’s, it’s like the most excellent trope bingo card all in one book: you’ve got shipwreck, secret societies, women doing derring-do, amnesia, more secrets, scandalous families, terrible families, working against your own moral code. There are so many delightful tropes being deployed, and I, and I love doing interviews about books because I really like to deep dive into books, but I also promise no spoilers, so I’m not spoiling anything here.
Vanessa: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Did you have a favorite scene or a favorite trope that you deployed in this book?
Vanessa: I like the contrasts, right?
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Vanessa: So there’s a couple, I do, you know, I don’t often do ballroom scenes and whatnot. I, I, I kind of like to be outside of that. I like to –
Sarah: Yeah.
Vanessa: – what is going on than what you’re, you know – I guess, if Regency has a trope of itself or a stereotype of itself it’s always, they’re in the balls with the gloves and dancing, dancing, dancing. I like to be outside of that –
Sarah: And the little dance card, yep.
Vanessa: – right?
Sarah: You’re totally right about that.
Vanessa: And so there’s a couple scenes where Jemina and Daniel are in ballroom settings or in dinner settings, and there’s the other things going on that I think – to me, I found them funny – [laughs] – because, once again, you’re able to play with those contrasts. But there, I kind of, I went in on the, on the con-, on, on the, this is the typical scene, but let me show you from their perspective all these different things that are happening. And so I think you’ll get a different, a different picture of, of, one, this woman who’s trying to figure out who she is. Society is telling her now, you’re, you’re, you’re wealthy; you’re an heiress. You should be doing X, Y, and Z. These are the things you’re supposed to be doing. She, she doesn’t even want that. And then you have Daniel, who’s trying not to make waves. He’s like, I, I get it. I, I, this, all this new attention. Please don’t look at me; I’m not trying to make any waves. I just want to get through this dinner and – so those are my tropes. The, the dinner/ball tropes were –
Sarah: Yep.
Vanessa: – are my favorite.
Sarah: And I will say, you write a great dinner scene.
Vanessa: [Laughs] Thank you!
Sarah: Because dinner, dinner scenes are great. They’re almost like, they’re like a microcosm of, of a house party or forced proximity. You have to sit at the table; you can’t just sort of like throw your napkin down and storm out. That only works once; you can’t do that more than once. And there are so many rules and sequences where the next course is coming in and there’s going to be people in the room and there’s going to be servants who might overhear you, and you have the code of behavior of the table, but almost like, you know, kicking the person next to you underneath the table, underneath the surface, there’s a lot going on, and a lot of your characters sort of speak in a, almost in a code!
Vanessa: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: They have a lot of coded speech. That must be very fun to write.
Vanessa: It is; it is.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Now, you also made an interesting choice with this book – again, no spoilers – that Daniel’s point of view is third person and Jemina’s is first person, and you go back and forth between the two. What made you gravitate towards those points of view for those characters? Because first person for the heroine was really interesting. It was very immediate; it put you in her body. And with –
Vanessa: Yeah.
Sarah: – Daniel, like you said, don’t look at me; I don’t want to be – he, he has the distance of third! Was that part of why you chose those tenses?
Vanessa: Yeah! It was, this was a book that if I had done, if I had been tempted to write both in first person, I prob- –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: – I, I might have. But there’s, to me there’s, there’s a little dis-, distance, and that is also playing into Daniel’s character.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: So I want you to, to see what he’s seeing. There’s, there’s always this little gap; there’s always this little bit of distance. But for these, this particular series, you’re in the head and the skin of the heroines. You are feeling it, and so they are the, they’re the primary drivers. Daniel slightly takes over the book a little bit, but – [laughs] – but the women, their journey, their sisterhoods, this is, this is, this is their book, and so you are, you’re Jemina in this book, and you are trying to figure out who you are, and you’re trying not exactly to fall in love, but he’s just too fascinating for you!
Sarah: He is trying so hard to not be interesting. But he kind of can’t help it, ‘cause he’s interesting. Like, he’s really smart; he’s a, in a unique position; he has all of this power and, and influence; and he’d really like to be ignored and move outside of all of this attention. Often it’s a heroine occupying that space in historical romance, but you placed that, that, that conflict, that, that tension on the hero. What drew you to that for Daniel?
Vanessa: It, to me that’s the way he, he, he has always, he came to me, since the first book. He, this reluctant hero kind of guy, right? So he understands what his aunt’s trying to do, but he also understands all the implications of, if they get caught, what’s going to happen? How this is going to go down.
Sarah: ‘Cause he knows the law, right?
Vanessa: – the law. He knows everything that, about it, and, you know, they’re, you know, the law can be administered in true justice, or it can be punitive, and he’s seen all of that. He doesn’t know how to get his aunt to, to see this other side of, look, this is what can happen! And then, once again, because he is a Black man, he’s seen how the law has been used to even further discriminate against peoples of color, so it’s like, some of these folks might do, get the slap on the hand; some of them might get capital punishment. So it’s like, he’s trying to tamp all this down. So he’s a very interesting character: one of my favorites, I would say, of, of the books.
Sarah: Really!
Vanessa: ‘Cause of this tension that he’s constantly in.
Sarah: And he has the opportunity to do more, knowing that doing more professionally and socially and in society and with the power that he has is going to bring more attention to him, which he doesn’t want. That’s a lot of internal conflict that’s very hard to resolve!
Vanessa: Mm-hmm, exactly. Exactly.
Sarah: Now, your publicist Jane at Kensington, who’s fabulous –
Vanessa: Fabulous!
Sarah: She’s wonderful; I love working with her. I, one of the things that I love most about my job is the number of publicists I get to interact with, because they really spend a lot of time with the book trying to figure out how to market it, how to, how to promote it, how to get people interested, and publicists often have the most interesting questions, and I always ask when I book through a publicist, all right, what, what do you think I really need to make sure that I don’t miss talking about? And she says that one thing that you love to explore in, in your series is the multitudes of types of love. There’s romantic love, but in this book there’s also parental love and the love between friends and the loyalty between these women who don’t have any other reason to be loyal to one another. What are some of the ways that you want to, that you try to introduce that into your, into your books? Because there is a lot of relationships, and they’re all treated as equally important.
Vanessa: I, I – first of all, I love Jane, that she picked up on that. I love you that you picked up that.
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Vanessa: The, I’m giving you several romances in this book.
Sarah: Really, yes! There are many.
Vanessa: Back in the day, back in college, I was reading these books, and there was almost like a way where the heroine was set apart. She was so different from everyone else! And so she’s isolated, and then she meets this guy, and then her world turns topsy-turvy. And we’re, today, if, if the pandemic hasn’t taught us anything, we’re, we’re a part of a village, a network. When I’ve had a problem with something I run to my girls. There’s this, this bond, this love that’s there, and, and I wanted to show that! It’s, you know, the, The Widow’s Grace, if, if we’re doing mirrors, Widow’s Grace has joined all these different and unique women with different backgrounds all together, and so in this little microcosm I show you that, that mirrored relationship in Patience and Jemina, because they would, I feel like they would die for one another if, if it, if that ever came to be. And there’s circumstances where you can see that, how they would go forward and do for the other, and so to me that was extremely important, because women, women’s friendships are bond. They are –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Vanessa: – so precious, and when you find those kind of friends, you keep them in your lives, and they, they’re the only ones who, sometimes they’re the only ones who can speak to you in your life and tell you you’re, you’re screwing up or, or –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Vanessa: – you know, you need to look at this from a different angle, and, and so I wanted to reflect that.
And then another thing that you rarely see – at least, I rarely read about, particularly in historical romance – is seeing a father, particularly a Black man, being a father to a baby or a child.
Sarah: Yes.
Vanessa: And just seeing Daniel love on Hope, how she, little, little, this little child has changed his world and his perspective, I wanted to show you that.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: And then, once again, you have Daniel and Jemina, who, who don’t exactly want to fall in love, don’t even kind of sort of like each other at the beginning. There’s just this, this overriding attraction, and then they’re, they end up falling in love.
And, and, and so these are the three relationships that you see in it, and I, I think they’re all, I wouldn’t say they’re all equal, but they’re all extremely important in telling the story.
Sarah: Oh, absolutely, because you’re very right: there are a lot of stories in the romance genre where the heroine is isolated, and I’m seeing more groups of friends and series built around female groups of friends, which I love. I mean, there’s lots of dudes and brothers and we, we joined a club and we, we were together through this experience; we are, you know, comrades in this way; but I’m seeing more women in that, in that cast, which I love. And it, it struck me that – I don’t think this is a spoiler, ‘cause it happens in the very, very, very start – that Jemina, when, when she and the other members of The Widow’s Grace, she and Patience especially, are going out, they’re in danger. Like, if they get caught, it’s very bad. They’re in danger, and they have each other’s back, like, literally with a grappling hook and a –
Vanessa: [Laughs]
Sarah: – rope, and Jemina’s like, please, why do I always have to be not on the ground? Could I please not do the things that require me to leave the ground? It would be great if I didn’t have to climb a thing! What is she doing? She’s climbing a thing. And Patience has her back. So they’re in these very precarious, life-threatening situations, but then they also have scenes where they’re sitting in the bed together. They have a really wonderful closeness. It must be lovely to develop that over multiple books.
Vanessa: Yes. And, and that’s why if, when you read this, if you read the first book first –
Sarah: Right.
Vanessa: – and then read this, it’s, you’re going to have much more of a picnic, because –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Vanessa: – you see this continuing relationship; you see just how that, they have, they have deeply bonded and have gone forward in, in just trying to make sure each one is okay.
Sarah: Yeah.
Vanessa: Make sure each one is, is, is living their best lives or, or doing what they need to do. And giving that, that unconditional understanding.
Sarah: Yeah.
Vanessa: Because there are things that, you know, potentially could have been Jemina’s background that, you know, Patience would be upset, but she understands the person that I’m friends with now –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: – the person who I know now, doesn’t matter who that person was. This is who I love; this is, this is my friend. And so that unconditional love, I, I, I – it was a pleasure writing them. It’s a pleasure bringing them to the forefront.
Sarah: And that’s part of romance, right. Not just the, the romantic relationships, but the, the fundamental message of romance is that you’re worthy of love exactly as you are right now.
Vanessa: Exactly. Exactly.
Sarah: Which I, which is one of my favorite parts of it.
There’s also the, the parental love with, with Daniel and Hope, and – again, not a spoiler; happens in the beginning – he just has a child foisted upon him.
Vanessa: [Laughs]
Sarah: Oh, you’re Black; so’s she. Hang on one sec; we’ll be right back. Here’s your baby; thanks, bye. Like, that was the whole adoption process.
Vanessa: Pretty much. And so that’s, that’s another fun trope, right? Because you see two people going down a hall; you see two Black people going down a hall. You, people sometimes assume that they’re together!
Sarah: Yep.
Vanessa: I, I, you don’t know how many situations, particularly in corporate America –
Sarah: Oh dear God.
Vanessa: – walking down the hallway, somebody’s two steps behind me, and then we meet another set of people and they automatically assume we were together talking or whatnot, because it’s just – so I decided to take that on its head, and, and I thrust that situation as to explain why Daniel now has a, a toddler for a daughter. Who he doesn’t know, doesn’t know the name of.
Sarah: It’s a very evocative way to establish his moral core, for him to recognize, okay, I have just literally had this child foisted upon me. Here you go; here’s your baby, thanks. He knows, very quickly he understands that if he doesn’t accept this person, if he doesn’t accept that this child is his responsibility now, she’s going to have a terrible, terrible life, and he needs to basically step up or condemn her to a really awful existence. And so in that moment he’s like, well, I – okay, guess I’m a dad now! All right, let’s go to Target.
Vanessa: [Laughs]
Sarah: Like, the, that’s – okay! It, it establishes his, his moral center very quickly: he cannot do the alternative, so, well, guess I’m a dad now. And he adjusts very quickly! He’s, he’s a very flexible kind of dude.
Vanessa: Ver-, very, he’s very sentimental. And –
Sarah: Yes!
Vanessa: – I hope that, you know, that’s one of the things that, that, to explain why he makes certain choices, he’s extremely sentimental.
Sarah: Now, in one of your bookstore romance day events last year, which of course was like a decade ago, you talked about how historical romance is like a form of historical fantasy, which I completely agree with you there, a hundred percent. It is utter constructed fantasy. What aspects of historical romance have brought you to that realization, and what do you see changing and evolving in your own writing and in the writing of other people exploring historical romance?
Vanessa: At one point, when someone called any book in historical romance a historical fantasy, it was almost like a sleight.
Sarah: Mm-hmm!
Vanessa: Right? You’re not historically accurate enough, so we’re going to call what you’re doing fantasy. But when you think about that there were only twenty-eight dukes over ten thousand books, and I’m pretty sure only two were hot, right? Two were hot –
Sarah: That is so true!
Vanessa: – like sixty, you know, and not hot! Right?
Sarah: No, not hot. Not hot at all.
Vanessa: So, so –
Sarah: Certainly not walking around with their shirts open and tucked in.
Vanessa: Yeah! You know? And it – we’re not even going to go with teeth. Okay, we’re not even going to talk about just being able to have good dental hygiene. So from that perspective, everything that has a writer’s imagination is historical fantasy! And we’re giving you fantasy because we’re kind of glossing over a couple things. Having –
Sarah: Kind of large things.
Vanessa: – you know? How they made their money. You know, where their holdings are. Colonial holdings, etc., etc. We’re glossing over all that! And just focusing on two people in a point of time that are trying to maintain and improve their lives, and hopefully they can find a love that’s everlasting. That is the hope – that part isn’t fantasy; that is a hope that I think every historical writer is trying to give to their readers.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: And then it’s just, it’s these different flavors of, you know, for me, I will find some historical fact and it’ll blow my mind, because the truth is always stranger than, than, than fantasy ever can be. And I’ll just, it just evolves into, how am I going to wrap this into a story? How am I going to bring this to my readers so that they, they, they say, wow, that is really cool, and, wow, that’s a, that’s a great romance; that is something that is going to tide me over or help me get to that next book I’m going to read.
Sarah: Do you remember what historical facts you incorporated into An Earl, the Girl, and a Toddler?
Vanessa: A tod-, yes. So several strange things – I, I recently got into plants, and when I found that one particular tree in England is the same tree in Jamaica, just called a different thing – the ironwoods – that is a, that is a, a, one of those tiny things that can tie two people together if they happen to, to like this particular plant or tree. So that was a, that was fun. And –
Sarah: And that’s a motif through the whole book!
Vanessa: Exactly. I, I’m a talisman! I – Sarah MacLean told, gave me this, this term, and I was like, yeah! [Laughs] Talisman! I love that, I love that!
The other thing is, many times when we read about the Prince Regent, Prinny –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: – we always assume he’s a fat, drunken, you know, womanizing lout who spent all this crazy loads of money and then became king because his, once his father passed. There’s another side to him! He was actually very liberal minded. Now it might have been because of his quest to have the ultimate party that he was very liberal minded –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Vanessa: – but he actually chose people of character, people with great talents and invested in them. So George Bridgetower is one of them, one of the, the, the probably greatest violinists of the day. Bill Richmond, the, the, one of, boxer, the legendary boxer. He was, he came to the party that Prince Regent had after coronation, or during the coronation week, and he was one of the celebrated athletes of the time. These are two cases of, of Black men that he had literally invested in their career, paid for education, brought them to the forefront, and made them part of his society. You don’t, no one really knows that about Prinny, and I was like, I want that little fact to, to come through, and it comes through. So Daniel is one of, his So-, Socratic mind, so he’s one of Prinny’s favorites.
Sarah: And it’s interesting, because for Daniel, he knows that the, the sphere of people who know who he is in relation to Prinny extends geographically to a certain point, and if he goes beyond that point, people may not actually know of that fact and that influence and that connection, and it wasn’t like you could just, you know, text somebody; it took some time to get a message. So his, his, his literal geographic sphere is limited, even though his potential, because of this favor and patronage, is almost unlimited!
Vanessa: Exactly. And –
Sarah: Yeah.
Vanessa: – he lives in.
Sarah: Yeah! I can do this, but only here.
Vanessa: [Laughs]
Sarah: I can grow into this, but I can only do that here. I can’t choose somewhere else, because this is, this is where the opportunity is for me because of this other thing.
You have shared parts of the, of the audiobook.
Vanessa: Yes!
Sarah: And your narrator is exquisite! Bahni Turpin is an incredible narrator! Have you listened – do you listen to the audio of your work? I know some authors do not like to because they hear things, they’re like, oh, why did I write that?
Vanessa: I’m kind of one of those. Sometimes I –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: – I will or will not. But I listened to her first, the first book, A Duke, the Lady, and a Baby, and she was phenomenal because of –
Sarah: She’s wonderful.
Vanessa: – all of the accents! So you get –
Sarah: Yes!
Vanessa: – different Caribbean, the Guyanese. I just, she was just amazing! The accents, and so, the snippet, I cannot wait. I will be listening to An Earl, the Girl, and a Toddler once it releases, ‘cause Bahni Turpin, she’s amazing! [Laughs]
Sarah: Also, in the bookstore romance day event, I was talking to Amanda, who was part of that event for historical romance, that you convinced a whole bunch of people to buy an air fryer, and I’m, and I’m curious: do you still love your air fryer?
Vanessa: I love my air fryer.
Sarah: Okay.
Vanessa: I made –
Sarah: I’m thinking about buying one, and I’m very curious about this.
Vanessa: Have to. Sarah, you have to. You have to.
Sarah: Okay.
Vanessa: I just did sea bass in it last night.
Sarah: Oh!
Vanessa: Yes. So you take the sea bass filets –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: – the thick ones, and you marinate it in a very good white wine, like a dry white wine.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: So just, just for a, mm, maybe about ten minutes, ‘cause you, the, the fish is very delicate. And then you coat it in olive oil and spice and seasons, and then you literally bake it in the air fryer for about twenty minutes?
Sarah: Ooh. Really.
Vanessa: Tender, juicy sea bass! That bad fish. So it’s like, you can, you can find so many different – I’ve baked cakes, stuffing, you name it, in the air fryer! [Laughs]
Sarah: Wow! Okay, I think you’ve convinced me. ‘Cause you’ve, this –
Vanessa: You have to –
Sarah: – it’s been like a, a, a major appliance for your Quarantimes, right?
Vanessa: It doesn’t heat up the whole house! ‘Cause, you know, you crank the oven up?
Sarah: Yeah, and it’s hot.
Vanessa: It’s hot. It’s such a chore, right?
Sarah: Yeah.
Vanessa: Get the little air fryer thing, it’s all, you know. And there’s nothing better to reheat McDonald’s french fries?
Sarah: Oh, now you’re speaking my language. Mm!
Vanessa: McDonald’s french fries. ‘Cause you know you can’t –
Sarah: – air fryer.
Vanessa: – microwave McDonald’s french fries.
Sarah: No. You either have to re-fry them or, or toast them just right, and even then it’s easy to go too far.
Vanessa: Air. Fryer.
Sarah: Really!
Vanessa: Yes.
Sarah: Huh.
Vanessa: Perfect. Perfect –
Sarah: You have any recipes that you make every time like, okay, air fryer, I’m going to do this one thing?
Vanessa: Turkey breast.
Sarah: Really!
Vanessa: Turkey breast. Turkey breast comes out juicy every time. It’s, it’s almost a similar thing, but you’re, you’re going to coat it in olive oil, you know, season it, coat it in olive oil, twenty minutes skin down, flip it over, I think another fifteen minutes.
Sarah: Ooh, crispy skin?
Vanessa: Let it rest for about five minutes.
Sarah: Crispy skin?
Vanessa: Yes!
Sarah: [Gasps] Okay.
Vanessa: But, but the thing is, the meat, it is so tender, and it’s juicy! ‘Cause, you know –
Sarah: Yeah.
Vanessa: – turkey can go on you, right?
Sarah: Turkey breasts can just dry out in like twelve seconds.
Vanessa: Yes.
Sarah: Yeah, that’s not good. Really!
Vanessa: Yes.
Sarah: ‘Cause I have been –
Vanessa: Get the air fryer! You will be amazed.
Sarah: Okay. I think you convinced me. ‘Cause I’ve been baking a lot of bread, and I’ve been saving the heels and cutting them up to make stuffing? And I was thinking, I could do turkey breasts and some stuffing.
Vanessa: I did stuff- – I did that! [Laughs]
Sarah: Really!
Vanessa: Yes! The only thing I had to do was make the cranberry sauce, but yeah.
Sarah: Ooh! I like this plan.
Vanessa: This was good.
Sarah: My teenagers’ll be very excited.
Vanessa: Very much so. Very –
Sarah: Okay. Thank you for taking this side trip with me into air fryer land, ‘cause I’m like, oh, air fryer! I’ve been thinking about buying one. I should talk –
Vanessa: We must tell the masses, because –
Sarah: Oh!
Vanessa: – liberating tool. It’s a liberating tool. Your teenagers can use it!
Sarah: I love this plan! Ooh, yes! Please! Ooh, yeah. I’ll come down at like three in the morning. Mom, I used the air fryer.
[Laughter]
Vanessa: Just make sure when they do, they clean it out so that you don’t –
Sarah: Yeah, got to clean it up.
Vanessa: Oh, I’ve got to clean it.
Sarah: Yeah, it’s gross. Is it hard to clean?
Vanessa: No! Not at all.
Sarah: Good, good, good.
Vanessa: That’s why it’s like, really? Really, you forgot? Really?
[Laughter]
Sarah: Doesn’t take much effort; could you get on with it, please?
Vanessa: Exactly! Exactly.
Sarah: Okay. I’ll, I’ll go back to being a professional, semi-professional podcaster, air fryer detour, but thank you, ‘cause I think I need one.
[music]
Sarah: Due to the level of inappropriate behavior of the trees in my neighborhood, this is the seventh take, but I’m going to get it this time. Are you ready? I’m ready. All right, let’s do this.
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Yes, I did it! I didn’t cough! The trees have been vanquished!
And now, back to our interview with Vanessa Riley. This part’s really cool; she’s going to talk about mechanical engineering and writing romance.
[music]
Sarah: I also know that you have a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering, which is very, very cool! And I know that, like, romance land is populated with many an, an attorney and many a recovering attorney, and my theory is that when you write legally, you’re writing within a structure. You can make whatever argument you want, but you must the follow the right structure for the document or brief that you’re preparing, and romance is very similar: it has a structure and you have to work within that structure, which of course made me think of mechanical engineering. Is there, is there an overlap? Do the skills in that field lend themselves to romance writing?
Vanessa: I was told very early on the secret to being a very good engineer was always asking how and why. So when I’m looking at how would this work in 1814? How would this happen? And then the, why does this happen? Why – and you just keep digging on those, those, those levels. That’s part of the fun that I bring. Also the research aspect, ‘cause I was always researching something. Whether it – now, it might have been material properties of some sort of arcane metal or something like this, but that same ability to research, knowing where to go in the library systems, knowing how to dig through really old, very, very, very old books from researchers who’ve done something similar in the past, but maybe with different lasers or etc., etc. But that ability to know how to dig for answers, as well as asking the questions how and why, have saved me in so many different ways and shaped stories.
Sarah: Wow! So what is your, what do you do as a mech-, with the, with the mechanical engineering part of your, of your history?
Vanessa: Well, two-fold: I worked a lot for General Motors, and one of my projects was to figure out why the high-pressure turbo pump was noisy. So if you drive a Cadillac – if you actually made it out of your house and drive a Cadillac – it was quiet, then –
Sarah: No kidding!
Vanessa: [Laughs] Yeah, it was one of my fun assignments, way, way, way back in the day.
Sarah: So you had to figure out the noise, the reason for the noise, why it was happening, and then how to counter it.
Vanessa: Exactly. And it was –
Sarah: Oh cool!
Vanessa: It was one of those fun assignments where I had to go and watch the people. And this was another skill! I had to go watch people, ‘cause, like, I ran all the formulas, every – like, this doesn’t make sense! But when you map it out, you see these particular pumps are coming from one shift, and so then you go to that shift and you watch them do it, and you realize they’re, they were crimping the housings on the, the pump too tightly.
Sarah: Ah!
Vanessa: So that, that, you know, at the, that point in time, the, it was ‘cause it was a new product. Those levels of tolerances hadn’t been set, so if you cramp it too tightly, it’s going to scrape in the housings, and it makes more noise. So, once again, once they, they set the tolerance level, the problem went away. But it was, you, you couldn’t look at a data and say, what’s the problem? You literally had to go and watch the production and watch how they’re doing it. And that made a difference, so the, that ability to learn about observing nature, observing people, you know, came very early on, and, and that was part of my engineering process.
Sarah: Wow! And to relate that to romance, if you, if you need to figure out, well, you guys want to be together; why aren’t you together? Or you, you can’t be together; why can’t you be together, and how do we fix that? It’s a similar problem-solving step, right?
Vanessa: Very similar. And then just, I, when, when I, we talked about inhabiting the skin –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: – well, if you’re inhabiting somebody’s skin, you’re looking at the, the whys, the hows. You’re feeling it, right, and you’re observing, you know, how they’re going about their lives and, and what they’re doing. So that, that ability to try and be a keen observer, to bring that to the character so that you feel like you’re there and you feel like you’re walking through the halls and you feel like you’re putting on these clothes and you’re having these discussions with these other people, and then, once again, always, how, how would they do that? Why would they do that? These are key questions that are always tumbling in my mind, and I, I, I thank my engineering background for that.
Sarah: So basically you’re, you’re, you’re doing a deep dive into the mechanics of romantic entanglement.
Vanessa: Of course. [Laughs]
Sarah: Very cool.
Vanessa: I love it! I love it!
Sarah: Now, I’ve also seen your posts and your news about your next book. Can I ask you about your next book? ‘Cause I know you’re working on this one –
Vanessa: Absolutely!
Sarah: – but can I ask you about the next one, about Island Queen?
Vanessa: Yes.
Sarah: The thread at the top of your Twitter profile, of the cover, which, wow, and then you have the narrator – wow! – and then I, like, how excited are you about this? ‘Cause if, that series of reveals, I, I almost had to put my head between my knees. Like, that’s incredible! Congratulations!
Vanessa: Thank you. I, I’m, I’m excited! I’ve, it’s almost like I have been writing Dorothy’s story forever –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: – ‘cause there’s pieces of her, this, this woman who was bold, who lived differently than we all expected of the times, in every single one of my books, and so to be able to tell her story to the world is so exciting! ‘Cause she lived a crazy life! I’m going to just put it out there: she lived an, a phenomenal crazy life, and so to, it’s a privilege to be able to tell her story. And it comes out in July. Dorothy Kirwan Thomas – I literally found her by finding – one of those historical nuggets – I found a cartoon of Prince William Henry, aka future William IV, in bed with a Black woman in a hammock, and the, it’s by the cartoonist Gillray. Typically, during these, these timeframes from 1750ish to 1820, when they drew Black women in these cartoons, these editorial cartoons, they made garish features, big behinds, all these sorts of things, just because they’re part of the joke! But this woman is drawn beautifully. And when she’s drawn beautifully, she’s not part of the joke: they’re tattling on the prince. They’re telling a truth in the story, and as I kept researching to find this person, I found the Sailor King – was the, the only, only one of the kings at this point in time with a military background.
Sarah: Right.
Vanessa: It goes to the West Indies, and he’s in Dominica, and he’s dancing in the halls with this woman called Dorothy Kirwan. And I just keep digging and digging and digging, and I find this incredible life that has been hidden away. And so once again, this woman comes from enslavement; she buys her freedom, the freedom of her, her family; and then she goes on to build businesses across the islands until she becomes one of the wealthiest women in the Caribbean. And she is always at this point where she’s looking at her children: how do I save them? How do I make sure they have the best life? But then she’s looking at her sisters, her, other women who are just like her, free women of color who are, are being oppressed by the colonial legislature. How do I save them? And so she makes a decision to do something that ends up saving generational wealth within these women’s families, and so her story needed to be told.
Sarah: So this is historical, biographical fiction.
Vanessa: Yes.
Sarah: I think I have those adjectives in the right – biographical, historical fiction.
Vanessa: Yes.
Sarah: So it’s historical fiction, but it is based very much on a real person.
Vanessa: Very much so. With, whenever you’re, you’re doing these, these research, you, I call them signposts. You’ll find, at least here, you’ll find a birth certificate or cert-, you know, some sort of record in a church about baptism or something like this.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: You’ll find wills, and then you have to stitch all these pieces together to tell a story.
Sarah: Yeah.
Vanessa: How you get from piece to piece becomes part of your imagination of, of, of how to do it, but then you, once again, you have these signposts: you know where she was; you know children, potentially might know fathers. [Laughs] But you have to stitch this together, and I, I think that I have done a job that’s going to show you a different picture of the level of access that women of color had during this timeframe, or were able to achieve, because –
Sarah: Yeah.
Vanessa: – you know, we live in a world of noes: no, this couldn’t have happened; no, this was not the possibility. But history, or, is always surprise – the true facts of what happened are always more surprising and beyond our comprehension, and so I, once again, it’s a pleasure to be able to tell her story. Island Queen comes out July 6th. It’s, it’s my first hardcover! [Squees]
Sarah: Oh, that’s exciting! [Gasps] Oh, that’s exciting!
Vanessa: Yes. So I’m very excited.
Sarah: And, and it sounds like, basically, what we were just talking about, about, you know, you find this piece here about this part of their life, and then you find something, maybe seven years in the future, this happened. Okay, how did they get from A to B? Why did they get from A to B? What were the, for lack of a better word, what were the mechanics of them moving from point A to point B, and how do I reconstruct those?
Vanessa: Absolutely! Because it, there, there are choices. If I’m writing the book as a romance –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa: – there’s some choices I would not have made!
Sarah: [Laughs]
Vanessa: Get, get it out of there! Those are choices I would not – what were you doing? But show you why she would do, or, or the possibility why she would make –
Sarah: Right.
Vanessa: – these type of things, and how she would, you know, this situation happens; how does she deal with it? How is she going to go forward? How does she find the means? How does she build this – it’s, the hows and the whys of her life are where we writers come in, and we try and imagine something that is engaging to take you through her life.
Sarah: Right.
Vanessa: And so it was exciting to write. Very privileged to be able to, to be in a position to write this story. And I think that it’s going to, like I said, you’re going to love it, ‘cause Dorothy’s a character!
Sarah: Yep.
Vanessa: She’s a character!
Sarah: So what did you do when you discovered who the narrator for this book would be?
Vanessa: Flip out!
Sarah: Yeah?
[Laughter]
Vanessa: So I, and this is this geek moment: we exchanged emails! [Squees]
Sarah: Nooo!
Vanessa: [Gasps] She’s absolutely, Adjoa is absolutely brilliant.
Sarah: Oh my gosh!
Vanessa: I just wanted to say that. Lady Danbury, for, for those out there, is –
Sarah: Yes.
Vanessa: – narrating – from Bridgerton fame – is narrating, Adjoa Andoh. She is amazing.
Sarah: Did you, did you get that email in your inbox and be like, all right, I just need a minute; I just need a minute. Oh my goodness!
Vanessa: It’s like, oh! Whatever you need! I’m, I’m here for you! [Laughs]
Sarah: Yes, ma’am. Whatever – oh my gosh.
Vanessa: She’s wonderful, wonderful, brilliant woman, and the way she approaches building the, the narration? Amazing.
Sarah: Really!
Vanessa: We writers think, you know, we’re – that’s another level of the performance that you have to do. I mean –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Vanessa: – you see it with, with Bahni when she is, is performing these various characters and laying out this voice to match the, the character that she’s reading. It’s, it’s just amazing. So just seeing this on this other process, it’s just, they’re, the, I put my hats down to these ladies. These, there are amazing women –
Sarah: Oh, it’s so hard!
Vanessa: – telling stories, bringing these people to life, and it’s like, it’s, it’s like I heard in my head!
Sarah: I know! And then narration is so difficult because you, not only do you have the story, but you have the voices, you have the characters, and you have to differentiate between them and not making it a boring or monotone experience. There’s a lot of dynamic work that’s done there. It must be incredibly wild to hear that come to life.
Vanessa: Exactly –
Sarah: [Squees] Amazing.
Vanessa: Yes.
Sarah: So I always ask this question: what books are you reading that you want to tell people about?
Vanessa: Absolutely. So I’m reading The Rose Code. Power women – the backdrop is, is Queen Elizabeth and Philip’s getting married – but power women breaking codes, getting in trouble –
Sarah: Yep.
Vanessa: – all kind of stuff. Amazing.
Sarah: So much of what women have done in history is coded, isn’t it?
Vanessa: Exactly.
Sarah: We talk in code, we communicate in code, we decipher code.
Vanessa: Exactly! I wrote code! [Laughs]
Sarah: Yep! We wrote code; we wrote a lot of code. [Laughs] Sent people to the moon with that code!
Vanessa: Exactly. Catching up on Talia Hibbert –
Sarah: Yep.
Vanessa: – with Take a Hint, Dani Brown. I kind of read a lot of things at one time, so I’m – ah, Denny S. Bryce just came out with one: Wild Women and the Blues. It was amazing. Yeah, just, just scattered all over the place. Eloisa James just – Wilde Child. So it’s just like I’m all over the map in my reading preferences.
Sarah: Yep. So you buffet your books; you read multiple things at a time.
Vanessa: Absolutely, absolutely.
Sarah: That’s very cool. Well, thank you so, so much for doing this interview. I, I have had such a lovely time talking to you. Before I wrap up, is there anything you want to make sure to mention?
Vanessa: Yes! Please join my newsletter: vanessariley.com is my website. You’re going to see all my social media there. You’ll be able to track me on Instagram; you’ll see my crazy Reels, ‘cause I’m starting to do those. All my different connections, even my special Facebook group that sometimes will get spoilers and little hints of things that are coming along. So Vanessa Riley chats on Facebook. This is going to be an exciting year. There are more exciting things to come.
Sarah: Oh?
Vanessa: I can promise you that. There are some –
Sarah: Oh?
Vanessa: – really cool things to come.
Sarah: Ooh!
Vanessa: And I just want to thank everybody for supporting me and my career because, you know, it’s, it’s been a long one. This, this Earl and a Girl I think is number twenty-four-ish? Something in that number? Of books that, titles that I’ve released. It’s heartwarming to see the reception and the growth of the audience and people looking forward to the kind of stories I’m telling about people that you don’t normally see in, in these, in historical romances, so I’m just a bit excited that you guys are taking your precious time to read my work and, and enjoy it.
[music]
Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Vanessa Riley for hanging out with me and telling me all the things about air fryers. Do you have an air fryer? Do you also recommend the air fryer? I mean, these are really important questions. I need to know about the air fryer because it might be the next thing I need to put in my kitchen. Sounds delicious.
And if you’re thinking, I need to put some of these books in my eyeballs, awesome! I will have links to all of the books we talked about in the episode notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.
I end every episode with a terrible joke, and I tried to find a joke about allergies because that’s what I’m dealing with right now, but I did not. However, I did find a joke that every time I tell it, and I’ve told it about nine times so far, it makes me laugh, so I hope it makes you laugh, because this joke is ridiculous. I love it. Are you ready? [Clears throat] Okay. Serious, pollinated – [clears throat again] – podcaster voice:
What is the smelliest kind of ox?
Give up? What is the smelliest kind of ox?
The butt-ox.
The buttocks! [Laughs] The butt-ox! I love it! I love a good butt joke.
Now, if you have any jokes about allergies, please tell me them, because I’m not used to this much pollen in my life, and my whole immune system is like, what. Can we leave? This is terrible. Are the trees bad where you are? Holy smoke!
Anyway, allergies and buttocks – [snorts] – aside – [laughs] – we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week.
Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to listen to at frolic.media/podcasts.
[lovely music]
This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.
Thank you, Sarah and Vanessa, for a very enjoyable chat!
FYI: Sarah, I did not see a post of the transcript of this podcast now being available.
Get an air fryer. Get a rectangular one. I bake, air fry and make the best french fries in mine. they make pans that will fit it but a regular 9 inch cake pan fits in mine easily.