284. Romance, Mystery, and the Cuban Revolution: An Interview with Chanel Cleeton

 

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Howdy, and welcome to episode 284 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. This week we are talking romance, mystery, and the Cuban Revolution. I am interviewing author Chanel Cleeton about her new book Next Year in Havana, which is a dual-timeline mystery and romance set in part against the Cuban Revolution. Don’t worry; as usual with book interviews, I try very hard not to spoil anything, and I think I did a pretty good job with this one. We talk about the cover, which we hosted the reveal for, because this cover is just stunning. We discuss the origin of the book. We talk about the ways in which her family influenced the story and the intricacies created by including political nuance and multiple historical perspectives in multiple timelines; there’s a lot of interesting things going on in this book. Chanel also tells us about the historical research she did while writing this book, and, of course, she tells us about what she’s reading.

Now, couple of items: first, last week in episode 283, I messed up, and I want to apologize. I want to thank Alta for bringing my attention to my error. When we were talking about The Bachelor, I mentioned several of my frustrations with Arie, including that he didn’t want to kiss one of the contestants who was hesitant to ask him or initiate with him. Alta pointed out that everyone has a right to say no to acts of romantic intimacy, and no one owes people anything. Alta is totally right, and I was totally wrong, and I want to apologize for being so thoughtless. It was really uncool of me, and I want to thank Alta for calling me on that mistake. Totally my bad; I was very wrong.

But I do have something that’s all right: this week is Smart Bitches thirteenth anniversary! Yes, thirteen years ago on January 31st, the site was opened with a review for Sharon Shinn and a review for Suzanne Brockmann. So if you’re listening to this on the first weekend of February 2018, there’s still time to leave a comment and enter our giveaway at Smart Bitches to celebrate our thirteenth anniversary. The traditional gift for the thirteenth anniversary is lace, so I put together a fun collection of lacy items to celebrate the site, but the comments are really the most wonderful part. If you’ve been a part of the site or you’ve joined that giveaway thread, thank you, and also thank you for being part of the podcast and part of Smart Bitches and part of one of what I think is one of the best communities on the internet. So take a peek at the giveaway at smartbitchestrashybooks.com.

Now if you have questions or ideas or suggestions or you’re going to respond to something I said or correct me, which is always cool, ‘cause I am often wrong, you can email me at [email protected]. You can record a voice memo and email it to me, or you can just, you know, write out the text and ask me questions. If you want to request a recommendation, you want to request recommendations for something that you want to read, I mean, definitely email us, but I love hearing from you.

Now I have sponsors and transcript sponsors for this episode, and the sponsor text is very fun, so thank you in advance to Kensington for sending me this really fun audio to read, ‘cause I’m really excited, and I couldn’t get through this without laughing, so this is, like, take nine of this, okay? You ready? [Clears throat] Okay. Serious voice:

This podcast episode is brought to you by When You Love a Scotsman by Hannah Howell. If you’re ready to be swept away by passion-filled adventure and romance, When You Love a Scotsman by New York Times bestselling author Hannah Howell is your perfect kilt-y pleasure. [Laughs] Oh, Kensington, thank you! [Clears throat] Back to serious voice: seven strong, seductive, Scottish brothers have left their Highland home for 19th-century America, and they’ll stop at nothing to capture the hearts of the women they love. When You Love a Scotsman is on sale now everywhere books are sold and at kensingtonbooks.com. Kilt-y pleasure! Okay, that just makes my entire week. Thank you, Kensington, for sponsoring this episode.

This week’s transcript is brought to you by Lauren Dane’s Whiskey Sharp: Unraveled. The sharpest ache comes from wanting what you think you can’t have. Whiskey Sharp: Unraveled is the newest contemporary romance from New York Times and USA Today bestselling author Lauren Dane. Maybe Dolan has lived independent, free-spirited, and unattached since leaving home at sixteen. Whiskey Sharp, Seattle’s sexy vintage-styled barbershop and whiskey bar, gave her a job and a reason to put down roots. The temptation of brooding and bearded Alexsei Petrov makes it a hell of a lot better. You can find Whiskey Sharp: Unraveled available at all booksellers, and you can learn more at laurendane.com. And thank you to Lauren Dane for sponsoring this week’s transcript and to garlicknitter, who compiles each transcript each week.

Now I have compliments. This is the best.

First, to Gemma W.: Folks who know you know that it is hard to identify the greatest thing about you; you are the best kind of everything.

And to Shawn K.: There are many people on your team, and they are cheering you on, whether you’re making your bed or making your dreams come true. You should keep going.

If you would like a handcrafted, locally sourced, personally heartfelt compliment from yours truly, because they’re really fun to do, have a look at our podcast Patreon, patreon.com/SmartBitches. The Patreon community is the first place I go to request questions, suggestions, help me with interview questions, and also, you know, taking recommendation requests. So if you make a monthly pledge at our Patreon, you are helping the show, you’re helping me commission transcripts, and you’re helping the podcast grow in the new year.

Are there other ways to help the show? Absolutely there are! You can leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that’s the Apple Podcasts app or Podbean or Stitcher or anywhere. If you tell a friend, if you subscribe, if you recommend us, that makes a very big difference, so thank you for everything you do to help the show!

The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. I will tell you who this is at the end of the show. I also have terrible jokes at the very end, because it makes me stupidly happy to do these terrible jokes, and somebody sent me jokes and they’re really good, so I get to use one today; I’m super excited.

I of course will absolutely link to all the books that Chanel mentions, as well as some of the places on the internet she references, links to things. I will definitely link to the cover reveal so you can take a look at it. You can find all that at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

And now, let’s do a podcast! On with the interview.

[music]

Chanel Cleeton: Hi, my name is Chanel Cleeton, and I’m the author of Next Year in Havana.

Sarah: Thank you for coming on the podcast!

Chanel: Thanks for having me!

Sarah: It’s very hard for me to do a book interview when I’ve read the book because I am super self-conscious about spoilers, so I have a lot of questions, and then I have little notes: is this question too vague?

[Laughter]

Sarah: So if I ask you a question and you’re like, what? it’s me trying to avoid spoilers and I’m being too vague, so feel free to call me on it –

Chanel: Okay!

Sarah: – but first question is actually pretty easy. We hosted the cover reveal for your book, which is a thing we don’t do very often, but when I opened the cover file, I gasped out loud –

Chanel: Aw!

Sarah: – and then went I sent it to Amanda she went, oh, my God! What was your reaction to the cover?

Chanel: Pretty much that; that was my reaction as well.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chanel: I was in a coffee shop and I had gotten the email from my editor, and I opened it up, and you know, I’m not the most visual person, so when they asked me for cover input I feel like I was given very generic ideas, but I don’t, you know, quite have that artistic vision, but the final product was just so far beyond, you know, anything that I even anticipated. The colors were just even my favorite colors. I mean, it was really just kind of that perfect sentiment to match the book and also just something that I really felt represented me as an author and my brand and just really did that great marriage between past and present which was really important to me with the book. I, I really, I was just blown away. They did such an amazing job, and I was so grateful to them, ‘cause I feel like, especially with historical fiction, you know, the cover is so important, and they really –

Sarah: Yes.

Chanel: – just kind of knocked it out of the park, so, yes, very, very grateful to Berkley for that.

Sarah: [Laughs] They do have wonderful cover artists.

Chanel: Yes, yes.

Sarah: I love how the art, the single image of a woman looking to the side, it captures both of the heroines of the story.

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Because Marisol travels back in time, theoretically, almost, and her grandmother is sort of trapped in a time that is in her memory, and that one image of that one woman grabs them both. It’s so well done! Like you, I do not have artistic vision, and when I see it I’m like, oh, how did you do that with your art? That’s amazing! [Laughs]

Chanel: Yeah, I know. I, I was just really, really thrilled, and I’m so excited, ‘cause they’re working on the compan-, the next book is her sister’s book, Beatriz’s book, and we’re working the cover right now, and I can’t wait to see both of them side by side. I just framed the Next Year in Havana cover and put it up in my office, so I’m very excited –

Sarah: Isn’t that the best?

Chanel: – to have Beatriz as well, so, yeah.

Sarah: It’s the best when you have your book covers on the wall! I love that! I have mine on my wall, and it makes me really happy. I also go, oh, my God, I wrote a book?

Chanel: Yes, absolutely.

Sarah: Shit, I wrote another one? How did that happen? When did that happen? Oh, my God! So this is the worst question to ask an author whose book is coming out, but it’s the question you get asked all the time: could you tell me about your book? Tell me about Next Year in Havana.

Chanel: Sure! Next Year in Havana is an epic love story set against the backdrop of the Cuban Revolution and the modern country that averred, emerged in its wake, and it’s set in dual timelines between a grandmother who lives through the revolution and then her granddaughter in modern time who goes back to Cuba to scatter her grandmother’s ashes and learns a lot about her legacy and her heritage while she’s there.

Sarah: Now I know that this is a really personal story for you. How did this book come about?

Chanel: It really was kind of a lot of different factors that came together at once. So when I really first had the idea, it was the summer of 2016, and with relations opening up – my family’s Cuban, my father and my grandparents came over to the US in 1967 and so did our extended family; there’s about sixty-something members on my grandmother’s side of the family now – and we were planning to do a family reunion in Cuba because, you know, under the Obama administration it looked like travel was going to be more of an option, and while we were planning it my dad told me this story – which, I grew up on stories of Cuba, but for some reason this was one family story that they hadn’t told me – which was basically right before everyone left Cuba, they all kind of, in the middle of the night, went to my grandparents’ house and buried valuables in the backyard, because at the time when you left the country you couldn’t take your valuables with you. They weren’t able to take their wedding rings –

Sarah: Right.

Chanel: – anything like that, and so that was their way of kind of preserving it until they returned, and my dad was saying, you know, how funny would it be if we went on this family reunion and we went to the backyard and tried to dig the stuff up, and the second he said it, you know, as a writer – [laughs] – I couldn’t resist that –

Sarah: Whoa!

Chanel: – that spark, and it just kept kind of coming back to me. You know, what would you bury in that box if you were in that position where you had to leave your home under such difficult circumstances? What would you choose to keep? And that’s really where the original genesis for the story came up, and then the idea of doing the dual timelines really probably was inspired by my own relationship with my grandmother. She passed away several years ago, and we had her cremated with the intent that one day we would take her back to Cuba and be able to scatter her ashes there. So it is a very personal story for me and definitely was largely inspired by my family’s history in the country and their experiences.

Sarah: It seemed from the, from the book that it’s very common for families who are Cuban and Cuban-American to want to return, even if it’s as, in ashes or, or in some memorial way –

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – that, that, that was the beginning, and that’s where they want to end. Is that common among a lot of Cuban-American families?

Chanel: You know, I think every family definitely is different, and everyone has their own unique perspective on the revolution and, and its aftermath. Some have gone back, some have chosen not to go back to visit, so I think it’s a complicated issue.

Sarah: Yes, very.

Chanel: I definitely think among the older generation – and I’ve had several people kind of reach out to me and say this – that the longer they’ve been away, the more they’ve thought about wanting to go back and have their ashes scattered or wanting to go back and visit, so I, I think it just really depends. You know, everyone looks at it differently, and I certainly respect that. I think it’s really just such a personal issue, but I do think, you know, no one really anticipated to be gone for as long as they have –

Sarah: Right.

Chanel: – and that was really what struck me so much in both my family’s history and just the research I did, how temporary it seemed to everyone at the time, and I think the decisions you would make when you’re thinking about, you know, a several-month or a year-long exodus versus the decisions you would make when you’re looking at being gone for, you know, fifty-plus years are very different, so I think time has certainly played a role in how people see where they want their final resting place to be or if they feel like they want to go back.

Sarah: It was fascinating to me how much tension there is in different layers between them, between the people who leave and the people who stay and the idea of stasis. One of the things that, in the story, that I thought was so interesting is that each of the characters have their own definition of stasis. Some of the people in exile are waiting to return, and they almost have a, a, described a Cuba that they believe has hit Pause, and when they go back nothing has changed –

Chanel: Yes.

Sarah: – and yet in a lot of ways it has changed, and it hasn’t changed, and then for their part, Cubans in the, in the, in the book, they also exist in a difficult sort of stasis. They’re waiting for promises of improvement that didn’t come, that weren’t coming. Does that difference in definitions still divide people to this day? Is that something that you’ve witnessed?

Chanel: I think one of the biggest issues is when we talk about Cuba, both within the exile community and then obviously within the discourse inside the country, you know, we are almost talking around the fact that we are talking about different Cubas. And I, I tried to –

Sarah: Yeah, it’s very true.

Chanel: – you know, I tried to bring that out in the book, because I think it’s a difficult thing to have to approach, but it’s also an important distinction to make. My grandparents very much spoke of Cuba, as you said, as if it’s kind of been frozen, I guess, in their memories and as if we could just go back and have everything be the way it was in terms of the homes that they lived in. You know, it’s very difficult, I think, to, to acknowledge the fact that you have other people living in your family home now, and while in your mind it absolutely is still the home where you raised your children and that you worked hard to be able to afford and that you built your life in, it, it really isn’t anymore, because in the past fifty-something years it’s been someone else’s, sixty, almost sixty years, it’s been someone else’s home. So I definitely think that is an issue, and as we come to, if we come to a tipping point in Cuban-American relations, you know, that is something that I think will have to be addressed: the idea that people still are, you know, have a sense of ownership and a sense of belonging, but in a way, the island has moved on, and also that the struggles that are so important to those outside of the country are also very different from what people inside the country are living with and dealing with on a daily basis. So it is that idea of you have sort of a dual identity within Cuba, and then you add in, you know, the different generational differences. I think my generation, on a whole, looks at it a little bit differently because we have a different relationship; a lot of us haven’t been able to go back, haven’t had that physical tie. So it is a really complex issue, and I’ve been asked a lot what my hope is for Cuba or what I would see for the future, and I, I do think it’s, it’s really tough to tell how everything will shake out –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: – just because there are kind of some competing interests, and I think there is, overall, a very strong sense of pride in being Cuban whether you’re in the country or whether you left, but when you get down to the intricacies and kind of just the minutia of daily life, it, it does start to kind of see a little bit more the divisions and how it is almost a competing interest in some ways.

Sarah: Yes. And that, and that isolation is interesting, but it is not healthy.

Chanel: Yes.

Sarah: One of the things that I found so interesting, and of course, you know, after I was reading I was like, well, let me just spend nine hours on Google, ‘cause –

Chanel: [Laughs]

Sarah: – I know exactly zip about Cuban history.

Chanel: Oh, I love that though.

Sarah: The other thing I thought was so interesting was the, the tourism, that people come to Cuba almost like they’re visiting a place that’s like a historical theme park, and –

Chanel: Yeah

Sarah: – and almost ignoring the fact that that’s a place where people live.

Chanel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I, I think that’s one of the frustrations. I mean, I was aware of that, and that frustrated me before I started working on the book, but I think the more I researched it, I was also frustrated to really see that, because I do think it is in some way a bit of a disservice to the people who live there. On the other hand, though, tourism is such a huge part of the economy –

Sarah: Yep!

Chanel: – that it’s sort of the double-edged sword. I mean, it, financially, it is bringing resources to the country, but at what cost? And ironically, you know, there was such a parallel between what it was like with tourism before the revolution and what it was like now, and you really see that not that much has necessarily changed. I mean, Cuba was considered kind of like Las Vegas back before the revolution.

Sarah: Yeah!

Chanel: You know, you had all the mob money, and you had the casinos, and lots of Hollywood actors and actresses would come down, so really, it, it still is that tourist haven, but at what cost? You know, you kind of have to look at how that’s – especially now, with the whole issue with the Cuban peso, how that’s affecting the economy and kind of having a new system emerge where you have the haves and the have-nots, depending on what access they have to the tourist sector.

Sarah: And two currencies.

Chanel: Yes, yes.

Sarah: That blew my mind.

Chanel: Yeah. It’s one of those things, and I honestly didn’t know that. You know, my knowledge of Cuba is very much coming from my family before I started working on the book, so it’s more of, you know, the customs and that sort of thing. We really didn’t go into that kind of level of education when I was a kid learning about it from my family, and doing research for the novel, you know, it, it was pretty incredible to see the stratification and how that would influence people’s lives.

Sarah: So there’s a tourist currency that the tourists use and then there’s a regular Cuban peso that the Cubans use, and the one that the tourists use is worth more because it’s pegged to the American dollar? Am I remembering that right?

Chanel: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes.

Sarah: Holy moly! I’m not an economist, and I’m not a political scientist, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say that that really isn’t communism?

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Just a little not communism.

Chanel: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Sarah: So did you –

Chanel: Yeah.

Sarah: – travel to Cuba to write this story? I feel dumb asking that because I was, like, looking in your bio –

Chanel: No, yeah.

Sarah: – and everything, and I’m like, did you get one of those rad visas to go check this out, or was this not a thing?

Chanel: I actually didn’t. So that was, so I started the story explaining about how we had the big family reunion planned –

Sarah: Yeah!

Chanel: – and the other interesting thing that came out that really kind of sparked me writing the book as well was that as we were going through the process of really making deposits and, you know, doing all of the legwork for this trip, my grandfather, he’s one of the last surviving members of kind of the older generation; he’s going to be ninety-five –

Sarah: Wow!

Chanel: – he really just became very outspoken about us going and how he really didn’t want us to support the regime at, at all, to give any money, and it, it really was just a source of, like, great anger and hurt for him, and so my dad and I just decided, you know, the whole thing kind of, the family decided it wasn’t the right time, and my dad and I kind of privately decided that we were going to wait to go, just out of respect for my grandfather, because he did feel so strongly, and I think that’s one of those things where it’s just a complex issue.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: You know, we have extended family that have gone back and have enjoyed it. I know some people still have close family members there and go back to visit, but there’s still a lot of anger and hurt, I think, in the exile community, and, you know, they feel very strongly about it, and my grandparents kind of raised me as well. You know, they lived with us my whole childhood, so it was just one of those things where I understand where he’s coming from based on what he lived through and what he experienced, and we just decided. You know, it’s, it’s hard ‘cause it’s number one on my bucket list; like, it’s very important to me to go, but it just seems like, until things change, maybe it’s, it’s not the best time.

Sarah: Yeah. It’s painful to know that a place is your home, but you can’t go there.

Chanel: Yes, yes.

Sarah: And I can understand that being difficult and not wanting to support anything at all to do with the regime. It’s a really hard choice in, in every incarnation of that choice.

Chanel: And I think for my grandfather, too, being older – you know, he’s, like I said, ninety-five; he’s at the end of his life – I think he loves the memory he has of Cuba –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: – and I think deep down he understands how much it’s changed, and I think he feels like to see it would just kind of break his heart, so that’s –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chanel: – you know, definitely a part of it as well.

Sarah: I understand that. So for American romance readers, Cuba’s –

Chanel: Yes.

Sarah: – a lot like the Regency: everyone knows everything about it; we are all commonly fluent in everything having to do with Cuba, except not at all.

Chanel: [Laughs]

Sarah: So you’ve created a – [laughs] – you’ve created a world where I, I, certainly, as a reader, knew a little bit, and I knew very, very glancing things about the history of Cuba and the way that the United States and Cuba have influenced one another for good and for not so good.

Chanel: Yeah.

Sarah: You’re introducing a lot of history and a lot of information to an audience who is also probably not at all familiar with Cuban history. How did you decide what to include?

Chanel: That’s a great question! [Laughs] That was definitely a struggle, and that was, there were times my editor – I will give a lot of credit to my editor, Kate Seaver at Berkley: there were times that I think I probably got overly excited about the research, ‘cause I enjoyed it so much –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chanel: – and I was so passionate about it, and my background is in politics and international relations –

Sarah: Ohhh!

Chanel: – so it’s kind of my wheelhouse –

Sarah: So you can nerd out –

Chanel: – so there were definitely –

Sarah: – for a while about this.

Chanel: Yes!

[Laughter]

Chanel: And I did, I definitely did. And there were definitely paragraphs where Kate would be like, okay, I think we can cut some of this.

[Laughter]

Chanel: And she was absolutely right! And I’m very grateful to her for kind of dialing me back a bit. But, yeah, that was definitely – you know, I felt like I was writing for two audiences really: for an American audience that, like you said, probably has kind of the brushstrokes but didn’t have as much of a familiarity with the Cuban story, and then I also really felt like I was writing for a Cuban-American audience and wanting to kind of write a book that they would relate to and identify with; that was really important to me. So, yeah, it was trying to find that nice balance between putting in the details they would be familiar with and that would kind of speak to a sense of common community, putting in details for a reader who might not know much about it, but also not wanting it to read like a nonfiction book or to get overly dry in places, so it was a challenge. I hope, you know, I struck the best balance I could, and my editor was, like I said, super helpful at dialing me back when I would, like, nerd out on the currency, and she’s like, okay, Chanel, I don’t think we need to go, you know, that far into it, so.

Sarah: [Laughs] It’s a treatise on romance: the present, the past, and –

Chanel: Yeah! [Laughs]

Sarah: – economics! [Laughs]

Chanel: With graphics!

Sarah: For all you romance-reading economics nerds out there. So another thing that’s really difficult to explain in fiction is political nuance in, and in the present tense, you’re bealing with, you’re dealing with both the present and the past tense, dealing –

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – with political nuance. What were some of the tools that you used? I noticed that you used, for example, dialogue with one character who was new and one character who was established discussing things, but there was also a lot of context in where they went in Cuba. How did you, what were some of the tools that you used to incorporate that nuance?

Chanel: I really, I guess I tried to kind of hit, I don’t want to say the high points, but I mean, that really was basically what it was. I mean, I had a short amount of time to cover a huge amount of history –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: – in both the present and past, and I really tried to also look for places where I could weave the stories together? And now I’m having to try not to be too spoiler-y.

Sarah: Right, sorry about that. [Laughs]

Chanel: I’m thinking in my head how to best phrase it. I sent my characters to certain places that would also have relevance in the past storyline. So for example, some of the places that Luis and Marisol go to have some relevance in the past, and it was really about merging those two storylines –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: – so that influenced a lot, and also just what were the influential moments in the revolution? What were the influential battles in the revolution that – you know, I obviously wasn’t showing the actual conflict, but how did those places have relevance in, in the revolution?

Sarah: And Marisol is there on a visa to write an article about tourist locations. Like, she has a –

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – she has a conversation with, with Luis at one point where she’s like, no, I write lifestyle things. I write about, you know, the best face cream to use and where to go on vacation and how to pack a suitcase, and he says, and you can’t also write about politics? Why not? And that –

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – really resonated with me because ostensibly that’s what this book is doing. It’s, there is, there are romances in it, but it’s also looking at nuance of politics and also identity.

Chanel: And I think that was probably largely influenced, too, by kind of the moment we’re having right now, and it’s also a moment that I think you can see within Cuba is a lot of people who were maybe not traditionally given a, a voice in politics or considered to be political experts –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: – are finding their voice and becoming more active, and you’re seeing that with activism in Cuba. There’s some people that are speaking out and blogging about the government. I mean, obviously you see that in the United States – and so I really did want to highlight that moment of how things are changing a bit, and it’s not necessarily the political, you know, one political sector that’s being influential, but really people learning more about their history and their politics and having an informed voice. And I think Marisol also was really a foil for me; I mean, I, I will admit that. I, I think I went through a similar sense of learning and understanding while I was writing the book about my own Cuban history and legacy and, and what it meant to be Cuban in Cuba at the moment, and that really came through her character.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: She was on the ground; I was doing it through the research for the book and speaking to people about Cuba, but she definitely is kind of the reader’s window into modern Cuba and understanding how the past and present connect.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. And there’s a number of ways in which I personally had really surprising moments of identification with the characters. For example, Luis blogging: I Google-bombed a state senator in the early days of the site, and it was sort of like, oh, that’s annoying; we’ve changed your name to mean something obscene. In Cuba, I’d be dead.

Chanel: Yeah.

Sarah: I would be a, I would have been disappeared a very long time ago. And one of the things that it, it – there’s a conversation in the book: very few can afford the luxury of being political in Cuba, and –

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – I think it’s Luis who says, and no can afford the luxury of not being political in Cuba. If you take out the “in Cuba” part, that gave me some chills –

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – for the familiarity in, in our own political climate. Did, did you notice any parallels while you were writing as well?

Chanel: So many parallels.

Sarah: Oh, just, like, nine or ten, right?

[Laughter]

Chanel: Yes. No, I mean, I, I definitely did. That definitely in-, informed a lot of my writing. I, I will, you know, just be very honest about that. I think the other thing that was really important to me to highlight in that passage from Luis alludes to it, and there are also places: they do get a little bit frustrated sometimes, because I do feel like if you’re not exposed to what other political systems look like, I don’t think you always appreciate just how hard it is to speak out in certain countries?

Sarah: Yes.

Chanel: And I really, you know, I, I really wanted people to understand just how much the deck is stacked against you when you lose that ability, when you are thrown in jail for, for speaking out against the government, and I mean even for little things like listening to music that they deemed too Western.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: You know, it’s, it’s such an insidious kind of takeover of your identity, and I really wanted to kind of hit that home with an American audience, because I hear a lot, and I’ll be honest, I hear a lot of people who maybe aren’t as familiar with Cuba say, well, I don’t understand why people are so upset; I don’t understand what was so bad about the revolution. You know, I thought it was this great thing where, you know, more money went to the poor and it was kind of this successful transformation, and I’m certainly trying, not trying to say it’s black and white and that there’s, you know, a clear good or bad guy. It’s a very complex issue, but I wanted people to kind of understand a little bit more just how much personal liberty and the things that I think we do sort of take for granted sometimes, how valuable that is and how much there’s not always access to it in other countries, Cuba being a prime example, and so I really tried to bring that out with Luis’s character, because I just think it’s such a stark contrast. You know, we can be frustrated with the government here, and there’s certainly injustice in our country, no doubt about it, but I think there’s at least a greater access to speak out and to be heard, and that ability exists, whereas in Cuba, you know, it’s a completely different – you are, like you said, literally taking your life in your hands in some cases to, to speak out against injustice, which is just really heartbreaking.

Sarah: Even taking a picture of how long it is, how long the line is to get bread –

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – could cost you your freedom or your life or at least some, you know, piece of physical health that can be taken away from you by a beating. One of the things that is also relevant in the story is that both Marisol and Elisa in the past and the present storylines, they have to examine and sort of grapple with their own privilege –

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and the benefits they have of being wealthy and the ways in which they’re also vulnerable. Wealth and status is a big divide between the characters. What were some of the biggest challenges in writing their explorations of their own protection and privilege and also their vulnerability? That must have been really difficult.

Chanel: It was and it wasn’t. I, the hardest moment for me, and I’m going to kind of dance around it ‘cause of the spoiler issue –

Sarah: Of course!

Chanel: – but there is a moment with Marisol at the end where she has to kind of make a choice, she takes an action, and as, I wrote it several times, and as I was writing these scenes and, and this event, it kept not sitting well with me, because I felt – you know, as an author, I think, especially coming from romance, I, I always love my heroines.

Sarah: Right!

Chanel: You know, I put a bit of myself in my heroines. I think you always have that kind of instinct to protect your heroine and, and to, you know, you really want them to be the hero of the story. You want readers to root for them and all of their decisions, and there was a moment with Marisol where I knew that – I finally had to come to terms with the fact that she was able to take this action because she lived in a country that she was able to do so, that she had a privilege that Cubans did not have living in Cuba, and I got to the point where I was finally like, there’s no way around this; I have to just own it and call it out, and so there’s another character, and they have a conversation, and it was actually one of my favorite scenes to write, and it was a hard scene, but where the other character basically points out to her, you’re able to do this because you left, because your family benefited from leaving, because you had all these advantages that we have not had, and I, and I felt like it was such an important moment, because yes, Marisol’s making a choice, and yes, she really was trying to do the right thing, but there is a vast different there in, in her abilities and what she can do and what the characters who are not exposed to the life that she has lived in the US are able to do. And, and it was really, for me, that was one of the big moments in the book that really kind of spoke to the heart of it, and I’m sorry I’m being vague, ‘cause it is spoiler-y.

[Laughter]

Sarah: It’s only the end of the book! Come on! [Laughs]

Chanel: Yeah, no one is spoiled, but I think you have to recognize where there are places that, you know, your privilege makes a difference, and –

Sarah: Things are easier for you.

Chanel: – I specifically – absolutely, and I specifically chose to make the family a sugar family because sugar has played such an enormous role in dividing the economy, certainly before the revolution, and so that was absolutely something that I did to be able to heighten the disparities and how much of a role sugar played on the island, and you see that in Elisa’s storyline.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: And also, you know, my family certainly was not a big sugar family, but my grandparents came from a more affluent background, and that certainly informed their view of Cuba –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: – of the revolution, of the regime before Cuba, and I thought that was important to acknowledge so people can kind of understand what it was like economically and socially before and after.

Sarah: I was – yes – I was very struck, also, by the idea that at the time, during the revolution, it was not easily clear who to support. You said earlier, there’s no black and white, clearly good, clearly bad; it was all very shaded, and people didn’t necessarily know who to support or why, except to always make sure that they were supporting the right group publicly if it meant their lives were in danger if they didn’t.

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And that perspective of who to support and why changes based on what you have and what you don’t have –

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and that’s a challenge, I think, I would think, as a, as a writer, because it’s not always easy, I think, to sympathize with great wealth. Great wealth is fascinating; we write a lot about it in romance.

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: There’s a buttload of billionaires and dukes running around –

Chanel: Yes.

Sarah: – but it’s not always easy to empathize with having so much be so easy because of your affluence and because of your access. And that, that tension informed a lot of the book.

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I, I’ve – trying to figure out how to ask this without there being a spoiler.

Chanel: Oh!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Working it out in my brain here!

Chanel: It’s a hard, it is a hard book to discuss, ‘cause there are, I feel like there are a little bit – Yeah! [Laughs]

Sarah: And there’s a lot of twists and turns and stuff happening and surprises and things that are happening and whoo! Yeah, mm. Speaking of affluence, has anyone gone back to dig up their family stuff, or has it all, like, has, have there been, like, metal detectors in the last fifty years, and most of it’s gone? Do you know?

Chanel: I don’t know. I do know that my grandfather was not happy with me for – [laughs] – including the thing about the backyard –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chanel: – because he’s upset now that people will know there’s stuff there, and I was kind of like, I think at this point it’s probably been found. ‘Cause it was, I mean it was a fairly common practice. They also buried stuff in the walls of their homes.

Sarah: Oh, and any renovation –

Chanel: Right.

Sarah: – pfft, jewelry falls out.

Chanel: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, I think – and some people did secret stuff out of the country, but I, I don’t know. I have not heard of specific instances, and my family that has been back has not attempted, ‘cause I’m sure the – [laughs] – the penalties would be very steep if you were caught.

Sarah: Oh, just a few!

Chanel: Right, yeah.

Sarah: I mean, even the –

Chanel: Yes.

Sarah: – even the terror in the very beginning that Marisol goes through just having her grandmother’s ashes in her luggage.

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Like, that was terrifying!

Chanel: And that was actually, the smuggling of the ashes is actually modeled after family friends who went back and scattered their ashes, and I was like, did they go through official channels? And they were like, no, we just smuggled them in. And so I was like, okay, that’s how we’re going to do it, ‘cause apparently going through the official channels can be very frustrating and problematic. But, yeah, just that idea of being in, in the airport worried about, about being, you know, getting in trouble because you have contraband in your suitcase. Yeah, I, I tried to, from the beginning, kind of set the tone, and I think Marisol sort of evolves in understanding how dangerous it is in the country, and I think that was similar to my evolution. You know, I, I think we take things for granted, or at least I did, and my grandparents would tell cautionary tales of what it was like in Cuba, but you kind, I think you look back and you’re like, oh, well, that was almost sixty years ago. I’m sure things have gotten better; I’m sure it can’t be that bad; and then when you start to really research and, and drill down, you’re like, oh, it really hasn’t gotten that much better. You know, there’s still instances where if you defy the government, you, you can be in serious jeopardy.

Sarah: One of the lines that I also highlighted in my notes was, aren’t you tired of keeping your head down and praying for invisibility? And that the visibility and invisibility of gender influences so much –

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – of that story. How did you write about that?

Chanel: You know, I think it just comes from being a woman. I mean, to be honest – [laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, I was going to say, it’s a pretty, that’s a pretty universal experience, unfortunately.

Chanel: Yeah, I, I think it’s something that transcends time, really, in different ways, and especially – I just turned in Beatriz’s book, and her book is also extremely, you know, focused on what it was like to be a woman during those times and how that influenced what you were able to do and what you weren’t, and what I thought was so interesting with Cuba was that, you know, at the time, you actually had one of the more progressive constitutions. The rights for women were actually one of the more progressive ones in all of Latin America, but within families, you know, things would be a little bit different. Like my grandmother, she came from a large family; there were five sisters and a, and a son, and none of the sisters, you know, went to do any kind of advanced schooling, even though they certainly had that option available to them. It was just expected that you lived with your parents, and then you got married. You know, my grandmother never drove. And so, kind of looking at how this society viewed women, you know, maybe on paper, and there were certainly women that were able to be judges and doctors and do tremendous things for the time, but you also still had sort, sort of social norms that kind of kept some of that back.

Sarah: Yes. And, and you have women who are yearning to be visible and also knowing that there’s safety in invisibility –

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and then men who are openly working in, in, against the regime or against the current president also trying to remain invisible while doing very visible things.

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: All of them are in danger for, for both their visibility and their invisibility. So I have a really difficult question –

Chanel: Sure!

Sarah: – and, and I, and I don’t mean to ask this as a, oh, what’s the point anyway? question. How much does identity matter to an individual? Does it matter a lot, does it matter a little, or does it shift?

Chanel: You know, I, I think it probably depends largely on the individual, and I think, you know, it, it can be an evolutionary process. I think that for me – I’ll be honest; I probably, I grew up with it, so, you know, for example, my grandparents lived with us. You know, every day we ate Cuban food. Every day we spoke Spanish. Every day I heard stories, or my grandparents would be upset about news coming out of Cuba and would share it with me. But I think that as I grew up and I moved out of the family home and they got older and my grandmother passed on, I, I do find myself looking back and having a bit more nostalgia, and I guess trying to find that identity a bit more, I think, because it is farther away? And I think that that is also really the Cuban sense of identity is that feeling that you’re cut off from a place; you’re cut off from your memories, from your sense of history, and so that longing kind of intens-, intensifies because it’s just out of reach, and that’s really what I –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: – tried to explore and kind of really highlight with the book, because I think that is why, especially for Cuban-Americans, that sense of identity is so strong, and I also think there’s a defiance there.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: I mean, one of the biggest things about the Cuban exodus is that it was either against your will or the conditions were so bad that you really had to leave, and so there is that sense of, we’re going to preserve this homeland that we feel was taken from us in our families –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: – and in our new life, and I really, you know, have so much respect and appreciation for my grandparents, because they tried so hard to instill in that, in all of us, and I think it was a sense that they didn’t want to be erased. I think it’s the sense that, you know, you never needed to be gone as long as you were; you didn’t expect to lose – I mean, we were lucky that we had some photos smuggled out of the country by friends who came on later, but so many people lost, you know, marriage certificates, photos. You know, basically everything that happened before you left Cuba is just gone, and so I, I do think that that identity has become really important, and it’s, it’s a choice, and I think it’s one that’s been made and passed on to subsequent generations, but it’s that sense of –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: – you know, we won’t be defeated, basically.

Sarah: So if a reader finishes this book and wants to read more, do you have any suggestions?

Chanel: One of my favorites: it’s a memoir, but I love Carlos Eire’s Waiting for Snow in Havana. It is absolutely breathtaking; it’s heartbreaking. It’s about his boyhood in Cuba. He was one of the Peter Pan boys?

Sarah: Oh!

Chanel: So the Peter Pan kids, their parents basically put them on a plane and sent them to the US. They arrived in Miami, and these camps, it was facilitated by the Catholic church, and it was, they went without their families. You know, young kids, and Cuban families in the US would try to take them in and help them with the hope that they could be reunited. So his story, I think it was either a National Book Award finalist or winner several years ago, but it’s really, really incredible, and I highly recommend that one.

Not a book, but the other thing I really, really recommend, it’s called The Lost City, and it’s a movie that Andy Garcia did – he’s Cuban – and it really just, like, captures, you know, the spirit of the revolution and of the exile movement, and I, I loved that one. So those are kind of my two big, you know, absolutely recommend for people that want to learn more about, about the revolution.

Sarah: So I have to ask about the next book, because I got to the end and saw the one page that it was about Beatriz –

Chanel: Uh-huh!

Sarah: – and I was like, yesss! Oh, my gosh!

Chanel: [Laughs]

Sarah: She is up to some tricky shit in the background of this book –

Chanel: Yeah.

Sarah: – and I am just so excited about this! Oh, my goodness! Yeah, ‘kay, tell me all the spoilers, right now, all of them.

Chanel: [Laughs]

Sarah: Every last one, in, in numerical order; just bring, tell me everything you possibly can – I’m so excited! [Laughs]

Chanel: Oh, thank you. No, I, I fell in love with her, so I really, this book was kind of a one-off idea for me, and I didn’t have any plans to write more about them, and then the second she came on the page, I was just like, I have to write her story.

Sarah: Uh-oh!

Chanel: So it’s been really fun! It’s coming out in 2019. We have a title, which I don’t know if I’m allowed to share yet, but it’ll be out in ’19. Edits are done, and it’s basically set once the family has come to the US? They end up being in Palm Beach, and it’s set in the ‘60s, so you meet her, you pick up in 1960, and it kind of goes through a lot of the tumultuous relations, so the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Kennedy assassination, and it’s at the time when spying is really heightened between the US, and she gets involved with the CIA and with the exile movement and has a little bit of a forbidden romance with an American senator, so it’s, it was really fun. She’s so daring, and I loved writing her character because I’m all about, right now, writing just strong women doing extraordinary things, and I loved that she just kind of marches to her own beat and, and is very –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chanel: You know, at times it’s almost like her downfall, ‘cause she’s, sometimes gets in, a little in front of herself, but –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chanel: – she’s just so passionate in everything she does, and it really came through with her story. And it’s just her. Like, I couldn’t, she couldn’t share the, share the book with anyone else, so you have little tiny vignettes where you pick up with her in modern time, but the vast majority of it is set in the early ‘60s, and, yeah, it’s just, it was really fun to work on, and you’d pick up and see some of the other sisters in the family and how they’ve really kind of identi-, you know, adapted to life in exile and how they’ve been affected by all this stuff that happens in a fairly, you know, short time span, because that was such an important and integral part of Cuban-American relations.

Sarah: And the one scene that she has at the end with Marisol when Marisol goes to see her, I was like, oh, my goodness!

Chanel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Who the hell is that?

[Laughter]

Chanel: Yeah.

Sarah: She is going to be fun to read about!

Chanel: She, she definitely was fun to write, yes. I, I had a good time with her.

Sarah: So I always ask this of all of my guests: what are you reading that you would like to recommend and tell people about? Any genre; it doesn’t have to be romance.

Chanel: Oh, okay. Can I, can I do, I’ll do quite a few, actually, ‘cause I’ve been –

Sarah: Please! As many as you want! The more, the better.

Chanel: So, not romance, I’ve been on a huge Karin Slaughter binge? I, a blogger was talking about her; she writes these amazing mysteries and thrillers, and I think I’ve read her entire backlist, but it’s been phenomenal. Also love Tana French in the same vein; her books have been incredible. Romance, I just finished Loretta Chase’s new book, A Duke in Shining Armor. I’m all about the historical romance, and I loved that one; that one was really good. And on the historical side, I love Rhys Bowen. Her mystery series, the, Her Royal Spyness is, like, my favorite thing, and the next book’s coming in August, but it’s this really fun series with a, the detective is related to the royal family, so you get this really glamorous side with your mysteries, and it’s, it’s been a really fun read for me.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chanel: And there’s a good romance, too; there’s a, a, a thread throughout all the stories of romance that I really enjoy, so I, I highly recommend that series if you like historical and like a dash of romance.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this episode. Thank you to Chanel Cleeton for chatting with me about her book. I will have link to – link; I will have just one link, just the one, no other links. I will have link – no, the guy from Zelda; I will have Link chilling with me on the podcast entry. No, actually, I will have links, all of them, to Chanel’s website and to her social media, where you can find her on Twitter and on Facebook, and of course links to the books that we talked about. And maybe also Link from The Legend of Zelda, ‘cause I’m completely charmed by my own goof there. [Laughs]

This podcast was brought to you by When You Love a Scotsman by Hannah Howell. If you’re ready to be swept away by passion-filled adventure and romance, When You Love a Scotsman by New York Times bestselling author Hannah Howell is your perfect – say it with me! – kilt-y pleasure! [Laughs] Seven strong, seductive, Scottish brothers have left their Highland home for 19th century American, and they’ll stop at nothing to capture the hearts of the women they love. When You Love a Scotsman is on sale now everywhere books are sold and at kensingtonbooks.com.

This week’s transcript is sponsored by Lauren Dane’s Whiskey Sharp: Unraveled. Every episode gets a transcript, handcrafted by garlicknitter – thank you, garlicknitter [You’re welcome! – gk] – and this week the transcript is being underwritten by Whiskey Sharp: Unraveled. The sharpest ache comes from wanting what you think you can’t have. Whiskey Sharp: Unraveled is the newest contemporary romance from New York Times and USA Today bestselling author Lauren Dane. Maybe Dolan has lived an independent, free-spirited, and unattached life since leaving home at sixteen. Whiskey Sharp, Seattle’s sexy vintage-styled barber shop and whiskey bar, gave her a job and a reason to put down roots. The temptation of brooding and bearded Alexsei Petrov makes it a hell of a lot better. You can find Whiskey Sharp: Unraveled available at all book retailers, and you can learn more at laurendane.com.

If you would like to get in touch with us, you can always find me on Twitter @SmartBitches. You can email us at [email protected]. If you’d like to make a request for book recommendations or you have an idea or you just want to tell me a thing, awesome! You should totally get in touch.

And if you would like to help the show, leaving a review for the podcast wherever you listen makes a massively impressive difference in helping other people find the show, but if you’ve told a friend or you subscribed, that is quite a compliment, so thank you for that.

And if you’d like to have a look at our podcast Patreon, it is patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges make a big old difference, and Orville has joined me on my desk to tell me about how much he supports my rubbing his belly while I do sound work. It’s so nice to have a large, feline sound engineer; I can’t express how much this is helpful. At least he’s not kicking the sound box.

The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This is the Peatbog Faeries’ new album, Live @ 25. This track is called “Jakes on a Plane (Live),” and you can find the album at Amazon and at iTunes. You can learn more about Peatbog Faeries at their website, peatbogfaeries.com.

I will have links to the books that Chanel mentioned, some of the things that we discussed, all in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

And now I end with a terrible joke. Are you ready for a terrible joke? I hope so, because this is really bad. Anoia sent me jokes! I hope I said your name right, and if I didn’t, I apologize, but Anoia sent me jokes. They are awesome! Awesome in their dad-joke-ness. So you ready? Here we go:

Why can’t you hear a pterodactyl going to the bathroom?

Why can’t you hear a pterodactyl going to the bathroom?

Because the P is silent!

[Laughs] I don’t know if I can fully communicate how hard my twelve-year-old rolled his eyes when I told him that joke. I think it was accompanied with a very exasperated, oh, my God, Mom! And I’m sure he later texted it to all his friends.

So on behalf of Chanel Cleeton and Orville, who is currently on my desk, and everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend, and we will see you here next week.

[groovy music]