721. Exploring Platform Decay with Martha Wells

[intro]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 721 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and my guest today is Martha Wells. Yes, my inner thirteen-year-old was barely in control of herself. We are going to be taking a deep, spoiler-y dive into Platform Decay.

And I want to be really clear here: if you haven’t read Platform Decay, we’re going to SPOIL the dickens out of it – yes, Charles Dickens was in Platform Decay; you heard it here first. We’re going to discuss infrastructure fury, trains in Japan, Honor Princess Detective, and more. And really, when I say we are spoiling, we are SPOILING. I am asking Martha all about the story, my questions, your questions – we have a lot to talk about, but in other words, if you haven’t read Platform Decay and you don’t want to know that much about the story, skip this episode and come back after you’ve read it. This is a very book-club kind of conversation, and the whole thing is kind of SPOILER-y. I’m not sure if I can be more emphatic about that. If you don’t want to be spoiled, skip this episode and come back after you’ve read it.

That said, it’s a really fun conversation, and I’m really excited to share it with you.

And I have a compliment this week!

To Heather D.: You know your favorite outfit, where if you put it on, you feel a little extra awesome that day? This is how you make your friends feel: when they are with you, they feel a lot extra awesome.

If you would like a compliment of your very own, please have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Our Patreon community is made up of some of the most wonderful humans on the earth, and I’m not even exaggerating about that! They make sure that the show keeps going, and they make sure that every episode has a transcript from garlicknitter – hi, garlicknitter! (Hi, Sarah! My inner thirteen-year-old is also barely under control, just so you know! – gk] We have wonderful member benefits, including a Discord community that is one of the most pleasant places on the internet, and you get the full PDF scan of RT – and I mention that because I’m about to scan the issue for next month, and it’s from 1997 – mwah-ha-ha. So if you would like to support the show or you’d like to gift a membership, you can do that: patreon.com/SmartBitches.

Support for this episode comes from Hatch. You know how when you finish a romantasy and you just need the next thing immediately? Hatch has made that thing. It’s called Ophelia, an original audio drama inspired by Hamlet, where Ophelia finally gets to be the main character. Forbidden magic, a crumbling kingdom, a slow-burn love triangle with a prince and a very guarded, very intriguing best friend. The kind of love triangle where you will absolutely pick a side, and you will not be quiet about it. Book one of the three-part series is now available for free wherever you stream, with new chapters dropping every Tuesday. For books two and three, check out hatch.co/Ophelia, or find the link in the show notes. And as a treat, I have a sample of chapter one at the end of this episode so you can experience Ophelia for yourself. Thank you to Hatch for sponsoring this episode.

All right, are you ready to talk Platform Decay? I am so excited that Martha Wells agreed to do this interview, because she did so much travel and so much press for this book. I’m really honored that she’s here, and I hope you enjoy the conversation. On with the podcast.

[music]

Martha Wells: Hi, I’m Martha Wells and I’m a writer, fantasy and science fiction writer, and I’ve been writing since about 1993, and my most recent work is The Murderbot Diaries and the Witch King series, starting with Witch King and Queen Demon.

Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you for all of these books, ‘cause they’re so great!

Martha: Well, thank you! [Laughs]

Sarah: I would really like to have a very spoiler-y conversation about Platform Decay and ask some questions about the story and some of the characters and little things that I noticed. But I, I want to start by asking, what was your entry point into this novella?

Martha: I wanted to show Murderbot a little bit post Net-, Network Effect and System Collapse and recovering a little bit from what’s happened in those two books.

Sarah: Yeah, a lot of things happened.

Martha: Yeah – [laughs] – a lot of things happened, and a lot of not-fun, not-fun things for Murderbot happened. So I wanted to show that, and also I wanted to show a little bit more of Mensah’s family? I’ve been trying to think of a way to do that for a while. And I had a lot of trouble, as usual, had a lot of trouble getting started. And I knew I had, you know, wanted it to be a rescue mission, and I knew I wanted there, it to take place on the planetary torus. That’s the thing that’s in, the station encircling, completely encircling the planet. But I was having, as usual, having a lot of trouble getting started, and it wasn’t until I kind of moved to the in medias res beginning –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Martha: – that it really started to go. And I guess it was because starting earlier felt like it was spoiling the story, I guess?

Sarah: Yes!

Martha: We’re talking, telling too much about what was going to happen later.

Sarah: I remember when I started it, there’s this sort of feeling of disorientation, like, what’s going on? Where am I? Where are they? What’s happening? What is going on here? And I remember when, before my, my husband started reading it, I was like, Okay, you’re going to start and you’re going to be like, What is happening? And then you’re going to realize what’s happening, and you are going to say out loud, Oh shit.

Martha: [Laughs] Cool!

Sarah: Which is a really clever structure, if you think about it. Completely confuse everybody, and then the minute everyone understands the stakes, we’re already invested. We’re like a, like, you know, a quarter of the way in and like, ohhh crap.

Martha: ‘Cause they’re in a confusing situation.

Sarah: Yes. Now, I want to ask you about the torus. Have we seen this torus before? Or this was totally new, right?

Martha: No, it’s totally new to the series.

Sarah: Okay. So I’m in – the torus is like a whole character in this, in this, in the story, and you mentioned at one point, you wrote:

>> There was no pipe extension or tram for passengers to reach them, because why the fuck would there be?

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: >> I’m done. I’m so done. I would rather fight a CombatBot than spend another hour on this fucking torus.

So, is this about changing planes in Charlotte, Atlanta, or DFW?

Martha: [Laughs] It could be –

Sarah: Which one?

Martha: – all three. I don’t think I’ve ever done Charlotte. I’ve done DFW. That’s like my, I was born in Fort Worth, so that’s like my home airport?

Sarah: Yep.

Martha: So I’m pretty good with it? Though even I forget sometimes that the little train that goes from terminal to terminal will throw you on the ground if it can, you know.

Sarah: Yes! Oh yeah.

Martha: Like, yeah.

Sarah: It doesn’t care about you at all.

Martha: I forgot that for like ten seconds one time, and, like, three elderly people grabbed me and kept me from falling, which was, was really nice of them, but it’s like, I should have, I should have been aware; I should have been ready for this.

Atlanta was just hellish, ‘cause I didn’t, I didn’t know. I think that was the first time I’d had a change in Atlanta, and I didn’t really know how it was shaped or anything, and, and it was just – I don’t understand how anybody gets through here.

Sarah: No, me neither. Charlotte is horrible because it’s basically a big X? And so if you’re in A and you’re transferring and your gate is in C, you are going from one corner all the way through this middle section to a whole other corner. Like, you don’t understand how inconvenient this is, and there’s no fast way to get there. There’s like a couple of those little moving platforms?

So all through this whole book, I just, I just felt so much kinship with Murderbot’s rants about infrastructure?

Martha: Yes.

Sarah: I too rant about infrastructure. Do you have infrastructure rage as well?

Martha: Yes!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah. Usually whenever I’m in an airport.

Sarah: Yep! And I know you’re, you’re from Texas, which for a long time there was a talk about doing a rail system in Texas, and Southwest Airlines lobbied the proposal out of possibility. And I’m like, imagine how much better it would be if there was just a high-speed train just in Texas!

Martha: Yeah, I know! It would just, it drives me crazy, and we can’t even get to the normal Amtrak, I think, without going on a bus.

Sarah: No! It’s so silly!

Martha: What is the point in doing that when you want to ride a train? You know…

Sarah: Right? Like, why make the train –

Martha: …train.

Sarah: – far, far away? Like, that’s ridiculous!

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: The, the frustration that Murderbot has with just how difficult it is for average people to move around? Like, I deeply related to that, and I, it felt like that was something you’ve had a familiar frustration with too.

Martha: Yeah, it really is, because we’re stuck in a, you know, we, we pretty much have to use a car. We don’t really –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – and, and every time it feels like they start a train, like we used to have a train from, think it was Houston to, it was connected to College Station, but I think it was Houston to Galveston.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: And then they – and everyone thought, That will be great, because you can – ’cause it’s about an hour drive on –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – really a busy highway, and it’s like, you can go down there and have supper and come back and spend a day on the beach and come back. And then they did something where I think it, it stopped at nine o’clock? And it was like, that’s, that doesn’t, that doesn’t make any sense!

Sarah: Well, that’s stupid!

Martha: Yeah, it was, it was just – and so every time they do something like – I feel like we can just talk about trains the whole time.

[Laughter]

Martha: Every time they do something like that, it feels like they, they do it in a dumb way –

Sarah: Yep!

Martha: – and then take it away.

Sarah: Oh yes. And the degree to which – I think the public has not been properly educated, I think, in the benefits of public transit? Like, yes, you have to stand close to a bunch of strangers, but you don’t have to think when you get on the train.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: Someone else is doing all of the thinking. You can not –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – think about anything. You don’t have to worry about anything except did you bring a backup charger or a cable? Like, that’s all you have to worry about. And you get where you need to go? Not having that is, is, is so frustrating. And I’ve been lucky to live in places where there’s plenty, and like you said, whenever you, whenever you’re in a place where it’s just cars, you’re like, Well, what is even the point? Like –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – this is just annoying!

Martha: Yeah. It’s so hard to get around. And the, having gone to Europe –

Sarah: Yes! Oh my God.

Martha: Yeah, and it’s so nice. But then we recently, a few weeks ago, went to Japan for a, a science fiction convention in Japan. And the, in the tr-, in Tokyo, at least – that’s where we were, mostly, Tokyo and Kawasaki City –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – and Kamakura – the trains go everywhere!

Sarah: Oh my gosh, it’s incredible.

Martha: And it’s like it’s, it’s confusing, because there are so many places you can go! It’s not like you can get on one big train line and go west, or you – it’s like there’s –

Sarah: No!

Martha: – there’s like twenty choices whichever way you turn. And it was just, but it was so cool! It’s like you not only can go to work every day, you can just get everywhere!

Sarah: You don’t need a car!

Martha: You don’t need a car at all.

Sarah: Like, the idea of not having a car, and especially in America, where we’re taught, like, having a car is part of your, like, identity as a person, your car reflects your personality –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – and all of that.

Martha: Like, that’s not, like, propaganda at all or anything.

Sarah: Oh no, not in the very least! Pshaw, propaganda. I remember when we were in Japan, the thing I kept realizing was that, how so many of the spaces were designed for what humans actually need?

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, going to the bathroom in Japan is a luxurious experience, and I can’t fully comprehend how that has not spread to other parts of the world. Like, come on!

Martha: I know! It’s, it’s, and it, and just, even just the things like the little pull-down seats for people to put their babies –

Sarah: Yes! That just absolutely –

Martha: – in a stall?

Sarah: – blow my mi-, blew my mind! Little, little holster for your kid!

Martha: Yeah!

Sarah: Do you know how many babies –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – I’ve held for strangers who had to pee, and you can’t pee one-handed? And I’m like, Listen, if your kid is okay with a stranger, I will keep my feet within sight of the door, but I’ll hold your kid for you. And they’re like, Oh, oh! Oh! I’m like, You can pee with both hands.

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s okay. [Laughs]

Martha: It’s a luxury! Right?

Sarah: And the other thing about Japan especially is that it, they kind of get that humans have stuff! Like, there’s always a hook for your bag, and there’s always a place to plug in your phone, and, like, human have, has stuff and needs. And I think that’s one thing I love about the world that you’ve built? Like, as, as annoyed as Murderbot is by all these humans, the world is constructed, like the places where they are, for the most part, especially in Preservation, are meant for humans’ needs to be met without them having to be uncomfortable about it.

Martha: Yeah. There’s always, there’s places to sit down; there’s things to look at; there’s, there’s access to these things that you need.

Sarah: Yes. Which is, which is what, one of the reasons why Murderbot is so mad that there’s no way to easily get from point A to point B, and every section of the torus doesn’t talk to the other sections?

Martha: Yes.

Sarah: That sounds a lot like American states?

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah, especially now. [Laughs] So yeah, the, I, I put a lot of my anger and frustration into these books, and it was time to just, I think, really pile on this, since I have to, the past few years I’ve had to travel a whole bunch, and so I was putting a lot of frustration into them.

Sarah: This, just the travel frustration alone was probably my favorite thematic element? Like, the minute I was, like, listening to all of this part about the torus I was like, Oh, this is about, like, having to make a terrible transfer at an airport when you’ve twenty minutes, isn’t it?

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, that’s what this is. [Laughs]

Martha: Well, the part where they finally get back to what’s basically the pipe, which is basically a train station, and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – the bathrooms don’t work.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: And it won’t stop unless there’s enough people.

Sarah: Right. It won’t stop unless there’s enough people, there’s no bathrooms, and you just have to deal.

Martha: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. Another thing I want to ask you about: Honor Princess Detective.

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: Tell me everything. What, where can we watch? When’s it coming into development? Is Alexander Skarsgård going to be in it? Like, what, what’s going on here?

Martha: I wish! It’s like, actually, I’ve been watching, I watch a lot of Chinese dramas and, and, and, you know, Korean dramas, and, and re-, I’ve recently gotten into the Korean variety shows, which are, are –

Sarah: Oh, and they’re fun!

Martha: – are sort of more like our reality shows, except they’re designed to be fun?

Sarah: Yes, they’re not designed to highlight personality disorders and –

Martha: Yes!

Sarah: – and, and –

Martha: It’s not like –

Sarah: – conflicting behavior.

Martha: – let’s celebrate narcissistic personality disorder. It’s…

Sarah: Woohoo! [Laughs]

Martha: – let’s have fun and scream when we get scared and fall down and, and mess with each other and have fun, you know. I really like the way the, the recent ones I’ve seen – I think it was the Legend of Zang Hai, and then, I hadn’t actually started watching them – it was weird – when I named Honor Princess Detective, and then I started watching, I think it’s Unveil: Jadewind, which is basically Honor Princess Detective, exactly what I was thinking about.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: It’s like, she’s a princess, she’s a county princess, and she’s the head of the palace investigation department in, in ancient China, and she works with a guy who is a, he’s an, an assistant royal astronomer, and they solve crime. They fight crime in the palace and, and, and also fight for women’s rights. There’s a, it’s a, it’s a episod-, it’s more episodic, it’s more anthology, though there’s –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – over-, overarching storyline and so many of the stories, I think almost, I think all of them, are basically wrapped around injustice towards women and crimes involving women in the palace or outside it. And it’s a really good show, and it was just like, this is weird! I, like, created this show with my mind –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: – and then I found it on TV. [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, you’re just manifesting things into being.

Martha: I guess so! I wish –

Sarah: You should –

Martha: I, I wish I could use this talent for other things.

[Laughter]

Sarah: You could just start writing shows for, like, for Murderbot and ART to watch and then see how many appear!

Martha: Yeah!

Sarah: You could, you could revolutionize the media that we have available now! …appreciated. That would be very cool. Actually, I now, like, want a, like a, just a, a streaming channel of Murderbot and ART’s shows.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: I would love that.

Martha: That would be fun.

Sarah: Let’s manifest that into being.

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: Now, some of my questions come from discussions online and from Reddit, and one question that I had that I saw many other people asking, and I don’t know if you’ve answered this at events, so if you’ve been dwelling on this, I apologize: Is Sofi the same child that we met at the end of Exit Strategy?

Martha: Yes.

Sarah: Yes! I’m so excited! [Laughs] So you brought her back, the curious one who is, like, I am not afraid of this construct being with weapons in its arms. Let’s trade media.

Martha: Yeah, that was Sofi, and I thought I mentioned in there that, well, Murderbot met her on, in Mensah’s office.

Sarah: I must have missed that –

Martha: Okay.

Sarah: – ‘cause you, you really did make it more obviously than, more, more obvious than I thought. I love that! And I, and I, and what, what drew you to wanting to write more about Mensah’s family?

Martha: I mean, I used to at least see people talking about how fantasy and science fiction characters were in isolation, and they didn’t have families and, and all this other stuff. And, which is not something – and I think I would have – I like the found family concept, but then sort of realizing okay, that’s, not everybody’s going to, that’s not going to be everybody’s thing. People are going to come with – [laughs] – their own families! And so kind of, I, since my, really since my first novel, I’ve had people basically, the characters have relatives that, you know, that have to be taken care of or, or accounted for and all this stuff; I’ve tried to do that. And I think in the second book, my second book, City of Bones, I think that’s when I really started working on that. Up until Raksura, where the whole group is an, a gigantic, like two or three hundred people extended family – [laughs] – that you have to take care of.

And it’s weird how many people – and, and to me now that just feels very normal, and it’s weird how many people, especially, like, for the, The Serpent Sea, which was the second Raksura book, and was like, Well, why didn’t you just get rid of Pearl? And, ’cause then it’s like, Well, she’s their mom.

Sarah: You can’t!

Martha: [Laughs] And even if, like, yes, we all know she’s got, she’s got some problems, but you can’t just jettison mom!

Sarah: Yeah! That –

Martha: I mean, I guess you can, apparently! I guess people do it all the time, but, you know, not in this book. We’re not just going to jettison mom because she’s hard to deal with sometimes.

Sarah: And, I mean, that’s part of the underlying shock, that the main character of the Raksura series was on his own, and especially because he had no knowledge of how important his role was and how important his physical being was –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – but the fact that he was on his own with no knowledge of it was shocking and appalling to everyone else! Like, you were not supposed to –

Martha: Yeah!

Sarah: – exist in isolation. What happened? This is a travesty!

Martha: Yeah. It’s like, you should have a built-in support network of at least fifty people.

Sarah: Oh, sure! Which, by the way, is way too many people –

Martha: Everybody, everybody does, you know.

Sarah: – way too many people for me, to be honest. Fifty’s –

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: – fifty’s probably a bit beyond my limit.

But with, even with-, within the Murderbot world, you know, Mensah has, like, extra partners!

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: Extra spouses! I, I love how that’s a trope, that the future is polyamorous.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: Do you think that the future is polyamorous? Could you make that prediction?

Martha: I don’t think so? I think that, I think people just are going to do what people do.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: And so some people are going to be, ’cause you see Arada and Overse do have a relationship with Ratthi at one point, but it’s –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – they’re more of a, a, a couple –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – and that’s where they more lean to. And so some people are not going to, to, you know, people are going to be humans, and – [laughs] – and some want some things and some want others. So.

Sarah: Yeah. And I, I, I still see people being shocked by the idea that polyamory exists?

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: And I’m like, but it has been here. Like, people have lived in groups for a very long time –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – and, and created marital arrangements that aren’t just two people!

Martha: Yeah. And also just the whole, I see some people seem to have trouble, problems with the concept of the extended family that lives together.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: You have, and you see that in different countries where it’s a really big house, and people move back to it with their spouses to, you know, one or the other, and the families all end up very large, and it’s like, it’s cool! [Laughs] It just means –

Sarah: Yeah!

Martha: – you have a lot of people. Again, a, a bigger support network, more people taking care of kids, and –

Sarah: And I’m sure to Murderbot, this is horrifying. Like –

Martha: it’s probably horrifying. [Laughs]

Sarah: – way too many humans, way too many human things, way too many socks. [Laughs]

Now, one of the bigger arcs in this, in this novella is, is Leonide. Did you have this arc in mind for Leonide when, when Leonide first appeared?

Martha: No, actually. I thought she was going to be a one-off character, and then – in Network Effect – and then in –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – System Collapse, it would be fun, yeah, I thought it will be fun to bring her back. And then as I’m working on it, oh, it’d be fun if she’s kind of the catalyst for how they get out, inadvertently, for how they get out of there. And then for this, it’s like, oh, again, it’s like, it has to be, it will make more sense if this is someone who already knew of Mensah, had met Mensah and that instigated this. And why would she instigate this? Well, she doesn’t really have a lot of reason for revenge against them, since they did help her get out, out of that situation. But what if it’s, she needs that help again? It’s like you, when you live in this cutthroat corporate world –

Sarah: Yes.

Martha: – where everyone is turning against everyone else, especially when apparently there’s, there’s some sort of restructuring or factionalized infighting, and they’re never sure – that’s going on in Barish-Estranza – where groups of people are turning against each other.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: Maybe the only people you can trust are people outside that system –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – that you know don’t hurt or kill people unless those people are trying to hurt and kill them.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: And so they’re certainly not going to do anything to your kids. They’re probably not going to do anything to you, and it’s, they’re just more, it’s a safer option.

Sarah: I mean, even the SecUnits, when the two SecUnits, or one of them is talking with Murderbot, Murderbot says, you know, danger or Perilous extraction: elderly, children. Like, they understand these are, these are vulnerable people. Even the SecUnits know –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – that kids! Don’t, you don’t fuck with kids!

Martha: Yeah. Yeah. You can’t ask for help right now; I can’t help you. I have people –

Sarah: I got –

Martha: – I’m taking care of.

Sarah: I got an old person and I got a young person. Like, I cannot help you at this moment.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: Also, I, it, it would, it just occurred to me that Murderbot and, and Mensah, those are the only people that Leonide has seen defeat a corporation, outsmart a corporation, and win –

Martha: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – against a corporation. They’re the only people she’s seen do that.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: So of course she’s going to pin the hopes of her family and her, her children on them.

Martha: Yeah. And even if you thought, well, even if everything goes, goes wrong and they end up taking my kids, at least they’ll be with Mensah.

Sarah: Yes, they’ll be safe.

Martha: They’ll be safe.

Sarah: Yeah. And it’s, and it’s so interesting because, you know, you, you really play with, with empathy and sympathy. Like, I had a lot of sympathy for Leonide and, and the position that she was in and how very perilous it was, and how she probably knew that this was the, this was going to be the end for her.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: But at the same time, she arranged to have Mensah’s family put in a labor camp and potentially sold or killed. The thing I remember the most about her from, from, I think, Exit Strategy was, “Well, I was just looking for a better deal.”

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: Everything is a deal, everything is a contract, everything is a quid pro quo. And she goes from being a, a true hostile to an ally very, very quickly. That’s a big change for her!

Martha: Yeah, I think that, well, that’s kind of, I think, how people have to operate under that system.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: It’s like you have to – they make deals; there’s not a lot of emotion involved, I guess?

Sarah: No.

Martha: And, and even if she was using, you know, she, if she was using Farai and the others as a lure and that would, they were, she was never going to let that happen, unless she had to, they still thought about it.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: So, yeah, it’s like it’s, they’re terrible people! And just because you can work with them sometimes and that they have, they have families of their own –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – trying to protect, doesn’t mean they’re not terrible people.

Sarah: Which really undermines a lot of the presumptions that we culturally make about people who are parents? Like, you assume that someone who is a mother is going to have all of these attributes that come with the term mother or father. And that’s, that’s certainly not the case. Some people who are –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – mothers and fathers are absolutely dreadful human beings.

Martha: Yeah. I mean, we see that in the news every day. And not even the –

Sarah: Just a little!

Martha: – the ones that, it’s not even the ones that hurt the kids. It’s the ones that will be nice to their kids and then go out and do something terrible to somebody else.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: You know, either through action, direct action or, you know, whatever that, depraved indifference, the thing they used to charge everybody with on Law & Order.

Sarah: Yes, depraved indifference. Yeah. That, there’s no concern for other people’s humanity, because no one’s –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – a human; you’re all just a part. I’m just looking for a better deal, and you are a cog in my deal. Yeah. You’re a clause –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – you’re not a person. It’s also incredibly easy to disappear people quickly and lethally in this world –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – which you would think would be science fiction, and how could that happen? But that’s very much happening here too! Was that something –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – conscious in your mind when you were writing, how close they came to, Farai and the children, how close they came to being gone?

Martha: Probably? But it’s sort of been something that’s been, I mean, it’s been around for ages. I mean –

Sarah: That’s true.

Martha: So it’s always something that could happen. And with human trafficking, it, it used to be more illegal than it, it is now, it seems like.

Sarah: Isn’t that something?

Now, was your plan to inspire I’m going to say a rough fifty billion words of fanfic about Three in the torus?

Martha: It wasn’t! It’s like I was, I was wondering, it’s like, is Three just going to go back to the ship and wait? Does that – that doesn’t sound, seem like a good use of Three. And then thought, well, maybe Three’s just, just still working stuff out, and it doesn’t know what it wants to do. And so it’s doing that thing that Murderbot still has problems with, the whole impulse control thing. It’s like, yeah, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s like you’ve been just so controlled all your life, you’ve never had to really develop these skills about what’s a good idea and what’s not, and you just get the idea and do it. And then you have to keep going – [laughs] – because –

Sarah: Yes.

Martha: – you know, you’ve, you’ve sort of cut off your own escape route, and so you just have to keep going!

Sarah: And you just have to keep going. Yep!

Martha: And you’re meeting all sorts of new, exciting people along the way, apparently. [Laughs]

Sarah: What, what was it doing? What was Three doing? Besides freeing all of its comrades and, I imagine, hanging up union posters. Like, I think Three’s destiny is union organizer.

Martha: Yeah, I think Three is probably –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: – because some people have just talked about how Murderbot is not going out there and starting a SecUnit revolution.

Sarah: Mm-mm.

Martha: When Murderbot is obv-, obviously not that person –

Sarah: No.

Martha: – in a lot of different ways. For one thing, I think the anxiety makes its temperament just not suited to that. And so with seeing Three more is, ends up being the SecUnit that does go out, does more of this, actually plans more of this –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – as opposed to Murderbot, who’s just basically – [laughs] – looking for a really easy job.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: And just keeps sort of ending up in situations where it has to do things.

Sarah: And even then it’s, most of the time it’s winging it. Like, it comes up –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – with a plan on the fly. Three seems to be a lot more – I – also, Three seems to be an extrovert? And I imagine –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – that’s really confounding to Murderbot.

Martha: Yeah, ’cause then when they meet Three in Network Effect it’s like, Well, I had, I had my friends!

Sarah: Yeah! What happened –

Martha: The other…it thought the other two SecUnits were its friends, and Murderbot was, What’s wrong with you? And we don’t even know if that was true or not, or if this was just –

Sarah: No, it might have –

Martha: – how Three was perceiving its world.

Sarah: Right, and Three’s personality was such that it did want connection with others –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – and was going to find it. I just, I just love the idea that it’s just sort of wandering the torus, exploring and, you know, freeing comrades. And even in the end, even at the end, Three says, Can this be a we problem? Could we, like, make our punishment a little communist here? And Murderbot’s like, No, no, we cannot.

Martha: Yeah. Three is sort of like, Oh yeah, they’re not going to be happy that I didn’t follow the plan. And –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – ART’s in there, and ART’s not, really not going to be happy. [Laughs]

Sarah: But it goes anyway. Like, I –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – I did my part. I might as well, you know, see what’s going on. I can walk around and no one’s afraid of me.

Martha: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Have you seen the memes about this? About, like –

Martha: No.

Sarah: – Murderbot gaining free will: I just want to watch my shows. Three after gaining free will: And it’s a picture of Stalin with, you know, Let us free our comrades and break free of your chains.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Seriously, there’s going to be so much Three fanfic, and I’m so excited about it! That and the fan art.

I have a question about Holism and the other university transports. Do they all want their own SecUnits now? Is that what’s happening here? Is this like The Bachelor where they’re all like, Three, let me tell you all the things and you can come be my SecUnit?

Martha: [Laughs] I don’t know if that’s, ‘cause I haven’t really worked on any of the personalities except for Holism, but –

Sarah: Who I love, by the way.

Martha: – I think they’re probably really curious.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: You know, what has ART been doing? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes.

Martha: And Holism is actually, well, Holism is a lot nicer than ART. And it’s mostly it’s in ART, one, it’s sort of like they have a one-sided rivalry that’s all…ART.

Sarah: Yes. [Laughs] Yes, Holism is ART’s Bitch Eating Crackers.

Martha: Yes, yes. And Holism is actually older, so it’s just, it just can’t be – [laughs] – it can’t be bothered. And so mostly it’s just curiosity, and also, oh, they’re all, they’re, they’re also teaching and research vessels, so it’s like, Oh, you want to know things? Here, I’ve got things, pick…

Sarah: I have got knowledge and I have nowhere to put it. Let me just give it to you!

Martha: Yeah, you know.

Sarah: And they, and the, and the university, the learning vessels, they themselves are like, if you think about a, a learned language model or a learned machine intelligence, they all want to keep learning. Like, they are some of the most –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – comprehensively knowledgeable entities, and they want to keep learning. And here’s this whole new thing! Like, this, this, this construct entity that can –

Martha: Yeah!

Sarah: – that they can actually engage with and learn from and talk to! Like, this must be like the most incredible specimen they’ve ever en, found, ever invented. Like, I think ART says something similar like, Oh, you’re an interesting exercise in lateral thinking.

Martha: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: Which, come on, bro, that’s not cool! I also imagine there’s a lot of university transport fanfic.

Martha: Yeah, would think so.

Sarah: Now, I have a, a couple questions from my Patreon audience. One of them is from Rhode, and Rhode wanted to know: Does having the actors playing these characters in the adaptation informing your writing? Like, do you see them or hear them in your mind when you’re writing? Does it make – [laughs] – this is a very important question: Does having actors embody these characters make it less likely that you will harm them in future books?

[Laughter]

Sarah: What –

Martha: That’s a good question!

Sarah: I know! I love it! [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah. Now if I do it, I’m putting somebody out of a job!

Sarah: Right! Like, the, the, the stakes are much higher. [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Martha: It, it doesn’t make me imagine them visually so much –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – but the voices, sometimes when I’m writing the dialogue I can, I can hear the actors’ voices doing it.

Sarah: Oh, that’s so interesting! I always –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – almost always hear Kevin R. Free as ART. I think Kevin R. Free does a perfect sort of kind of pretentious, stuffy voice for ART. Like, it’s –

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: – a perfect voice. Do you know who’s playing ART in the adaptation?

Martha: Not yet. And, and the last I heard, they didn’t either. They were still – [laughs] – trying to, trying to get a person, so.

Sarah: Ooh! Okay, that’s a big role. Like, that, that –

Martha: Yeah, it’s a big role.

Sarah: – that, I mean, I, that is a very big voice role. Like, I hope, I, I hope that it, I hope that it goes well. I mean, maybe they could just hire Kevin R. Free; that would make me personally very happy.

Do you know anything about the next season? Is there anything you can share about it?

Martha: Oh yeah! It’s going to be the next three books. It’s going to be Artificial Condition, Rogue Protocol, and Exit Strategy.

Sarah: Oh boy!

Martha: Yeah, ’cause each one alone is really not – they would have to add a lot to it to stretch it to a full season, so you might as well just do –

Sarah: Wow!

Martha: – those three and kind of finish the arc.

Sarah: That’s a, quite an adaptation task for whoever’s adapting the screen-, screenplay.

Martha: Yeah, it was! It’s, it’s Paul and Chris Weitz. They did the first one. It’s their –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – production company that optioned it, Depth of Field.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: And they’re writers, producers, and directors. There’s other executive producers, and then there’s a, there’s usually two or three, at least, guest directors –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – that come in. One was Toa Fraser and Roseanne Liang – oh, I’d have to look up the other one, and, and I met her too, so I feel embarrassed. But, but yeah, which is really cool. Roseanne Liang was the one…I hope I’m saying her last name right, but I got to watch her the day that I went up to watch the set. I was only able to stay there a day and be on the set for the first season, and so I got to watch her direct the scene they were working on that day. And it was so enormously cool. It was…

Sarah: Really!

Martha: – how, they had the blocking, and then they started doing it, and then they, then she would tweak it –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – as they went along with the, and with the actors and, and talk about it, you know, with Chris and, who was there, and Paul and, and then go back and tweak it some more. It was like watching people edit a book in, like, three dimensions.

Sarah: Wow!

Martha: It was really, it was really fascinating.

Sarah: That is so cool! And how the, you know, the three-dimensional aspect of the people informs the story –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – they are telling by their bodies and their positions. And I mean, you know, Alexander Skarsgård’s doing a lot of acting with, like, his chin and his eyebrows and that’s it –

Martha: Yes. Yeah, he really –

Sarah: – so you do need to see his face.

Martha: – he really, micro movements. It’s really wild.

Sarah: Isn’t it incredible? Like, I would watch the show and be like, he just did a whole emotion with one eyebrow!

Martha: Yeah. [Laughs] It’s like, how did he do that?

Sarah: How’d he do that? [Laughs]

Martha: How do I know exactly what Murderbot was thinking in that moment? Yeah, it was really cool to see, and it also really impresses on, it impressed on me how many people it takes to do something like this…

Sarah: Oh, it’s incredible.

Martha: – creative people –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – from the person who’s just, you know, they have the, the model gun as it started out, and then it gets blown up in a scene, and now he’s painting the different pieces to, of this gun, to make them look like they’ve been blown up so they can be lying on the ground in this shot, you know. And, and just all the creativity and work that goes into it is just absolutely astonishing. I take it for granted. [Laughs] You know, you sort of know it, and then you see them doing it and you’re like, Oh, I can’t take it for granted anymore.

Sarah: Yeah, I made this real hard. Wow. Good job, imagination! And it’s also –

Martha: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Sarah: It’s also sort of eerie that, you know, you’re telling a story about artificial intelligences, and the show is being produced by humans with incredible creativity whose jobs are in danger of being taken by –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – the current versions of artificial intelligence.

Martha: Yeah, by large language models that mostly can’t really do what they’re purported to be doing.

Sarah: That they cannot, no, that are destroying the environment and hurting people. But it’s okay because, you know, you can outsource your workout or something.

Martha: Or your email. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: Can’t write your email yourself.

Sarah: AI: I hate it so much. Except, except Murderbot. I like Murderbot.

[Laughter]

Martha: Fictional AI is great!

Sarah: Yeah, fictional AI is amazing!

Martha: …fictional humans. I’ll agree.

Sarah: Oh, I like those a lot too! Funny enough! [Laughs]

What can you tell us about Naja’s backstory, who is this secret badass? And I just need you to know that literally everyone on the internet wishes that Naja had had a gun.

Martha: [Laughs] Oh, I should, I should do a short story where Naja has a gun.

Sarah: Yes, please! Now, you could call it “Naja’s Got a Gun”!

[Laughter]

Martha: You assume she’s from Preservation, but she could have been someone who moved there at some point and married into this family, you know, a generation or so ago and, and have a completely different background. So I kind of wanted to, I didn’t want to make everybody on Preservation sort of –

Sarah: Space hippies?

Martha: – space hippie kind of thing.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: There’s, there’s a lot of that, but there’s also people who came there from other places or people who are just different, like – what’s her title? Indah, who’s the, in charge of the, basically the port security – is different…

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – she has to deal with a lot of the outside world coming in. And –

Sarah: Gurathin, too, yeah.

Martha: Yeah, Gurathin is different. And, and so I kind of was wanting her – and then just as I was, as I was starting to write the character, I was saying, Oh, you know, I’ll, I’ll make her be really, you know, a, a tech person –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Martha: …this kind of stuff, so it’s not like they’re, they’re, they’re sitting there helpless. They have someone who, who can do this. And then it sort of evolved from there. [Laughs] And so it was just really one of those, it’s kind of like how ART evolved. So it’s just kind of like it was one, this character you start writing, and then, then as you, you know, develop them, you think of all these really cool things you can put in there.

Sarah: I think it would also make a great separate show based on Naja, like Secret Badass Grandma?

Martha: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Right next, right – tonight after Honor Princess Detective, tune in to Secret Badass Grandma. Will she get a gun this time?

Martha: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I love her. I love her so much, and if there were short stories about her, I would be so delighted. Not that you need to please me in any way, but oh my gosh.

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: Now, a larger question: in the story, you mentioned a second human diaspora in sort, sort of the larger timeline, and I know a lot of people, especially in, on, in, like, fan communities have tried to sort of figure out a date or a number of years into the future that this is taking place, because it’s very nonspecific, and I’m assuming very distant future here. Now, during Platform Decay, they’re exploring all these different parts of the torus, and one of them is very tree, tree and dangerous bugs. So does this mean that the Rainforest Café will survive any and all human diaspora events and will follow us everywhere?

Martha: [Laughs] I, I didn’t think of the – I have been to the Rainforest Café –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: – and it’s disappointing ‘cause when we go to the one with the, that’s got the boat ride, it’s always closed or broken.

Sarah: Yes! It’s so annoying!

Martha: It’s like, you need to fix it. It’s – [laughs] – why are you advertising boat rides when they’re always broken? But – so no, I was mostly thinking of probably planets that have been explored at some point –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – and this is probably more a version of it, based on a version of it bef-, possibly before it was terraformed or whatever.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Martha: Hopefully it’s still there in some form or another. But that’s really what I had in mind, and I was thinking about different, how people would structure different environments and what kind of ones they wanted to do and – ’cause when I originally thought of it, the whole thing was a desert, and it just, like, that got boring really quickly. So –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: [Laughs] ‘Cause you can have beautiful, beautiful deserts, but I didn’t want the whole torus, I realized I didn’t want the whole torus to be one. I also wanted to make it more difficult, and it’s like, well, if you can have different sections, then they can be whatever they want, and there’s some that have –

Sarah: Yes.

Martha: – are just very practical and some that have gone full theme-ing, at least around their shopping areas and things like that. ‘Cause, like, we do that. Humans love –

Sarah: Oh, of course! I mean, I’m kind of jealous that Murderbot goes from station to station and it’s just, like, malls! Like, I miss malls! I’m glad they’re coming back in the distant future, because I miss a good mall! And these –

Martha: Yeah! Me too!

Sarah: – a lot of these stations are just malls!

Martha: Yeah, there used to be all kinds of cool things and, and stuff, and I remember as a kid, you know, the, that they were a lot cooler – [laughs] –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Martha: – than they are now!

Sarah: Oh yeah. Even, I mean, even, even the Rainforest Cafe used to be more fun than it is now.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: I also want to thank Average_Pangolin on Reddit for calling it the Rainforest Cafe section, ‘cause that just imprinted upon my soul, and I must give them credit for that creativity, ‘cause it’s –

Martha: That is great.

Sarah: – it’s hilarious. And it’s also so meaningful when you, when you see later that they look at the planet that the torus is circling, and it’s just decimated. Like, it’s just got –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – chunks carved out of it, so they’re like, they’ve created all these artificial worlds around a planet that they’ve already completely destroyed.

Martha: Yeah, yeah. And this is probably –

Sarah: Wow, humanity.

Martha: – you don’t know whether the planet was destroyed to build the torus or the torus –

Sarah: No.

Martha: – was basically, began as a refuge after, at some time, at point during the destruction of the planet.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. And it’s so –

Martha: And it could be…

Sarah: It’s so depressing.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: An eerie in a very prescient – like, oh! Oh yeah, we’re doing that too. Huh.

Martha: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: So there’s a, there’s a new rogue SecUnit swinging through the torus, unencumbered by a governor module, swinging from the trees, thanks to Three. And I’m just wondering: is, is – I know that the Barish-Estranza SecUnits, they, they actually talk to each other, and Murderbot barely talked to the other SecUnits from the company. Is there SecUnit lore? Are they aware of Murderbot? What, what I’m asking here, basically, is did that rogue SecUnit realize that it met God?

Martha: [Laughs] It probably didn’t.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: It probably is, I think, when it first contacts Murderbot it’s, like, trying maybe to offer the governor module.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: And –

Sarah: System acknowledge?

Martha: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Instead of system system.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: The handshake was a little different.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: But it’s, but then instead it gets a whole bucket of code. Like, it got the Humble Bundle of –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – like, SecUnit code. [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: So maybe then it realized it met God.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Like, I want to go grab it and be like, Do you understand who you just met? Do you understand what just happened here?

Martha: It was at least like, Oh! Well, there’s, there’s a bunch of others who, like – that Three was, was telling the truth! There’s a bunch of others like me!

Sarah: Yeah. There’s some others! And I love how its first inclination was just to go boingy-boingy-boingy-boing and just hop around!

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, I can do whatever I want; I’m going to explore! Same thing as Three.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: And meanwhile, Murderbot’s like TV, watching TV, reading a book, watching a play, all at the same time.

Martha: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: I do envy Murderbot’s and ART’s capacity to have that many tabs open all of the time?

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: I know. I would love to be, having to do, doing something and also watching, that I could watch TV at the same time.

Sarah: Yeah. That would be fantastic. I can’t do that.

Martha: Or read at the same time, or both. When I was a…I used to be able to read and watch TV at the same time.

Sarah: Oh my gosh! That would be so great!

Martha: Yeah, when I was a kid – and it was, and I would know what was going on in both. But, you know, I probably lost that sometime after college, I think?

Sarah: Yeah. I can’t do it either. I used to.

Martha: …that time period where your brain actually changes and matures.

Sarah: Oh, you get an operating, working prefrontal cortex?

Martha: Yeah! [Laughs]

Sarah: I didn’t realize my prefrontal cortex was the problem to my getting all of these tabs. I need to address that. [Laughs]

One of the aspects to the story that really stuck with me, one of the phrases that really stuck with me, is that, Murderbot saying that none of these regular humans who are just trying to live their lives should have to deal with these two corporations basically having a mech battle in the middle of their frigging train station, and that –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – Barish-Estranza is now operating without any regard to plausible de-, deniability, which is terrifying. Like, they are, like, Murderbot is genuinely scared of that aspect –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – of this, of this attack. That seems to be a continual theme in the series, that when the corporations stop caring, if you seeing them, if you see them being terrible, then you’re in really dire straits –

Martha: Yes.

Sarah: – when the corporations stop caring about any kind of deniability, ‘cause they’re just going to pay the fine –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – anyway.

Martha: Yeah. And however many people got killed, you know, they don’t care!

Sarah: Yeah, whatever, it’s fine. And yet the, the biggest betrayal in this story is a parent not doing their job. So you can have this absolutely epic destruction with people being killed and this huge interruption of just basic safe passage because one corporation has its feelings hurt and is mad about something. And yet the, the biggest, most devastating betrayal is so personal. Were you thinking about that while you were writing?

Martha: Yeah –

Sarah: Were you always heading towards that betrayal?

Martha: I wasn’t always heading toward it, but I was, I do a lot of – I mean, I’m a pantser, so I do a lot of this stuff –

Sarah: Mm.

Martha: – as I’m going along –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – thinking about what are everybody’s motivations and what would I – I want this character to do this; what would cause them to do that?

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: And so that was kind of, you know, what if the older daughter had not, what if she didn’t betray her mother, either inadvertently or, or – but that she thought that, you know – well I guess it was inadvertent.

Sarah: Oh yeah! She thought she was just –

Martha: It wasn’t –

Sarah: – telling her dad stuff!

Martha: Yeah, yeah. It was not intentional at all. It’s like, she just assumed that, that he knew.

Sarah: Or like a child, she assumed that her parents were on her side.

Martha: Yeah, that he wouldn’t do anything that might, you know, get her or their other family members hurt.

Sarah: Yeah! I mean, that’s the basic job of parenthood, right?

Martha: Yeah. You would –

Sarah: You’d think! I mean –

Martha: – you’d think that was a low bar. [Laughs]

Sarah: The, the bar is in hell, but yeah.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: Now, is there a technology from this world that you would most like to have, other than a non-corporate government? I mean, I would like that, but –

Martha: [Laughs] Yeah!

Sarah: – obviously all of us would like to have that.

Martha: Yeah!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: Would be nice to live in Preservation.

Sarah: Wouldn’t it?

Martha: That’d be great. Technology, probably the big holographic projections they do, ‘cause it feels like that would also save you money on, it would, you could make things beautiful without having to use up resources –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – to do that. Yeah, the, the big holographic projections that you could do a lot of cool things with.

Sarah: And I’m assuming there’s human creativity to make those holograms happen.

Martha: Yeah, and to decide who, do we want a thunderstorm. The, I was think-, there’s an airport, and I can’t remember now which one it is – I’ve been to so many –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: – where you’re, you’re going from one terminal to the other, and the big hall that you walk along will do thunderstorms periodically.

Sarah: Ohhh!

Martha: Yeah, make the sound. I’m sure people watching will, will remember which one it is, but, you know, lightning and rain – it doesn’t actually rain on you.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: Lightning and rain noise and everything and, and –

Sarah: That might, well, according to the internet, Incheon has a simulated environment, and so does Singapore, Chang-, Changi, Chang He? Airport. I don’t remember how to say that.

Martha: Yeah, I’ve heard that the Singapore airport, you can, you just go there to, like, see all this stuff. It’s really…

Sarah: And go hang out. Yeah.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: When I was a kid, the mall, the, the airport in Pittsburgh, which used to be a major terminal, had its own mall, and people would go out to the airport just to go shopping, ‘cause all the mall was before security. You could just get all your shopping done at the airport and then drive home. And you know, there’s lots of highways going to the airport – [laughs] – so the traffic wasn’t bad either!

Martha: Yeah. DFW used to be like that. There’s –

Sarah: Yeah!

Martha: – tons of places to shop, and, before security, and then you could ride, they had another, I’m, I’m sure it was a different one, but they had a different, had a train you could ride without having to go through security. And people would take their kids –

Sarah: Yeah!

Martha: – couldn’t afford Six Flags, you would take your kids to the airport –

Sarah: Take your kids to the airport!

Martha: – and ride on that train.

Sarah: Are you kidding? The airport is fun! It’s like taking your kids to a construction site! That’s free, and that’s hours –

Martha: Yeah!

Sarah: – of entertainment! [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah!

Sarah: In New York City, people, a lot of people take their kids to the natural history museum because there’s a big room with a big blue whale, and it’s just an open space of underwater aquatic stuff, and there’s a movie playing, and people just let their kids run around when it’s raining. I mean, that’s just where you go!

Martha: Oh, that’s so cool.

Sarah: Yeah! Like –

Martha: I would like to do that.

Sarah: I would love that! And that’s, that’s something that exists in the world that you’ve created that is dying here: it’s just spaces to just be.

Martha: Yeah. Oh, at the Houston, one of the Houston museums – I can’t remember now what, which one it was; it’s the one that’s got the paleontology exhibit – they have a big space for traveling exhibits, and one of them was a big giant replica of the moon? It’s just kind of –

Sarah: Oh, cool!

Martha: – and it’s the coolest thing ever! And I, I wouldn’t have thought how cool it would be, but being able – and you can go, it’s, it’s two levels, so you can go up on the second level, and there’s signs that tell what you’re looking at and stuff, and, and look at it and, and it’s just, it was just enormously cool.

Sarah: So what are you working right now, if you can talk about it?

Martha: Right now I’m working on the third book in the Witch King series. So it’s going to be called Hierarch.

Sarah: Oooh!

Martha: And I’m hoping to have it done this year. I’m sure my publisher –

Sarah: Ooh!

Martha: – hopes to have me, have me have it done this year.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: It’s been building slowly, but I’ve kind of, I’m closing up in the halfway point, which is usually when things start going a little easier.

Sarah: Yeah. ‘Cause you’ve sort of got all the initial blocks all lined up, so you –

Martha: Yeah, sort of, yeah, sort of figured out where everybody’s supposed to be going now and can start getting them there.

Sarah: Is it easier to write the later books in a series because there’s so much that you have written before and you have so much sort of precedence, or is it harder the deeper you are into a series to –

Martha: It can be difficult because you keep running into stuff. When the first book, you’re just making stuff up willy-nilly, and you don’t –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: – have to worry about what you’ve already made up?

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: And now you have to, like, oh, what was the name of that place? Did, you know, did this person say they’d done that or they know about that? You know, you have a lot of continuity you have to look into. I have the, I think the, probably is trying not to do something you’ve already done before.

Sarah: Right.

Martha: Because I have certain, like, tropes I really love, and I try not to, like, beat them to death like a dead horse kind of thing. But –

Sarah: What are some of those tropes that you love?

Martha: Um, exploring strange places.

Sarah: Yes!

Martha: I love that the best. And – but, I mean, maybe they’re not really tropes, but just things I like to do is sequences, which I don’t want to repeat all the time.

Sarah: It’s okay if you do.

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: Just, just saying, as a person who reads your books, it’s okay. Go ahead.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Do it all you want. [Laughs]

Are there any books that you are reading that you want to tell people about? I always ask.

Martha: Oh yeah! I’m reading All Hail Chaos by Sarah Rees…

Sarah: Ohhh, yay!

Martha: I love the first one, Long Live Evil. That was a great book. I’m reading that now.

I’m also, I’ve been reading a bunch of Japanese mystery novels that are kind of older?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: And are just now being translated, that have been really good. And there’s, like, a few of those that are coming out. You know, there’s one series I really liked, and there was like four or five, I had the four, first four or five books. I’m thinking, oh, this is going to be great, ’cause this guy’s written like ninety books! I’ll have all these books to read. And then realized, no, that’s only the ones that have been translated. Now I have to wait.

Sarah: Ohhh! Nooo!

Martha: [Laughs] …for him to write it, you know, I have to wait for it to be translated. And hope they don’t stop translating them.

Nghi Vo just had a new novella out in the, oh, it’s the series that started with The Empress of Salt and Fortune? And she has two, at least two more books coming out.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: And one of them is in that, that same world with The Chosen and the Beautiful. And I think it’s the same, the Hollywood ver-, like the Siren Queen. I think it’s in that same kind of, I don’t really call it a world, but same kind of sphere of influence.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: That was a really cool book. I love that book. I love The Chosen and the Beautiful, too. It was fabulous.

Sarah: It’s a really good time for fantasy.

Martha: It is!

Sarah: Like, we’re f-, we’re, we’re feasting!

Martha: Yeah. Oh, and Ann Leckie has a new science fiction book out. Radiant Star?

Sarah: Oh cool!

Martha: Yeah, it just came, it came out the same day as Platform Decay.

Sarah: Ooh, how did I miss that? Thank you for telling me!

Martha: Yeah. And Kate Elliott is going to have another book out in the same, it’s the fan-, it’s the fantasy series. It’s different characters, but it’s the same world as The Witch Roads, and the second one was the – now I can’t remember the name, but I read them both.

Sarah: I love how we’re both like menopausal brain, like Ah, I knew that at one time.

Martha: Yeah, I can’t remember, especially whenever I’m doing something? I can remember it when I’m not trying to think about things, but, or trying to remember stuff, but if I’m at, in, like, doing a panel or something like that and I’m trying to name these stuff and I can’t, can’t do it.

Sarah: Nope, forget it.

Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Martha: I’m on, I have a website, marthawells.com. I’m also on Bluesky as @marthawells.com, on Instagram as @marthawellswriter, and I’m on, I have an, I’m Martha Wells on Goodreads, and I have a LibraryThing account under Martha Wells. But I’m not on Facebook or Threads, and people keep pretending to be me.

Sarah: Okay, that’s horrible.

Martha: Yeah, and they won’t do anything about it. And the, it’s, it’s, a lot of people have these IDs set up as me and as a bunch of other writers and will start conversations with other people who are aspiring writers or beginning writers –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – then as a lead up to selling them publishing services.

Sarah: Yep.

Martha: And so if someone, if I’m just cold-mailing you, emailing you about something, it is not me. [Laughs]

Sarah: No. I have people posing as me as well, emailing authors, telling them that if they pay like two thousand dollars, I’ll feature their book and they’ll get list, the Smart Bitches bump in sales? And I’m like, First of all, thank you for giving me that term. Second of all, how dare you?

Martha: Yeah –

Sarah: How dare you pretend –

Martha: – it’s very frustrating.

Sarah: Oh, it’s such a gross feeling, isn’t it?

Martha: Yeah. And it’s really –

Sarah: Like, I feel guilty, and I didn’t do anything! [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah, you do feel guilty! And yeah, ’cause the first time we encountered it, my assistant was like, This guy is saying that you’ve been talking to him in email, and I don’t think the guy believed my assistant when he told him, No, she doesn’t, she hasn’t been, she’s not on Facebook. She hasn’t been talking to you in Facebook.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: Sorry.

Sarah: She has not proposed marriage. You are not going on an overseas vacation.

Martha: Yeah, you know, she’s not going to read your book or whatever, and it was just like, it was just really depressing, and you feel guilty, and you’re like, Why – it wasn’t me!

Sarah: I know.

Martha: I didn’t do it, you know.

Sarah: For me, the people who always reach out are always men who’ve written, like, war memoirs or biographies of pilots, and I’m like, At what point did you think that a romance website –

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: – was the place that, that, that you, that whoever’s pretending to be me – who are you reaching out to? What are you doing? Oh, it’s so –

Martha: Yeah, well, I think they go for older people.

Sarah: Yes! Oh, you’re so right about that. Yeah.

Martha: Yeah, they go for older people, either –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – older or younger.

Sarah: Yep.

Martha: ‘Cause I’ve seen, I’ve seen some very young people, like, you know, early college age, get hit by publisher scams…

Sarah: Yes, pretending to be Penguin and –

Martha: – pretending to be from, yeah, Penguin or, or Macmillan or whatever.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: Which is really heartbreaking.

Sarah: Oh, it’s just so gross.

Well, I’m really, really honored to have spoken to the real, actual Martha Wells. So –

Martha: Well, thank you! [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, thank you for that. Thank you so much for doing this interview. I’m, I am so, so excited that I get to talk to you again, and I really, really appreciate your time. And congratulations on Platform Decay –

Martha: Thank you!

Sarah: – being a bestseller! Yay!

Martha: Well, thank you so much. And I always enjoy talking to you. So, it’s –

Sarah: Well, thank you! I –

Martha: I enjoy the website.

Sarah: I so appreciate your willingness to do a spoiler-y conversation, too, ‘cause I had so many questions. [Laughs]

Martha: It’s more fun when you actually talk about the book instead of trying to dance around –

Sarah: Oh –

Martha: – trying to talk about the themes and what’s going on with the characters –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Martha: – without spoiling anything. It’s sort of like, it’s really hard to think of what to say.

Sarah: I once, I once did an interview with an author about their book, and I read, I read the book in advance of the interview. I always try to do, like, at least a, a good, thorough, like, attentive read. And I realized, like, I can’t talk to you about anything past like page four in this book –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – because everything after is a spoiler. And they’re like –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – Yeah, sorry. [Laughs]

Martha: Anything with any kind of twist or mystery, it’s – and those are the parts you want to talk about!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: You know, that’s like the best part, and it’s like, you can’t talk about the best part.

Wilbur: Meow!

Sarah: I don’t know if you can hear my cat –

Martha: Yes.

Sarah: – is very insistent on discussing this right now. I know, I know. I haven’t opened, I’m, my mic is on and you are excited. He also was very excited about Murderbot.

Martha: And he was peering around the side of your chair. It was really funny.

Sarah: I know! [Laughs] Why aren’t you paying attention to me? This will be a fun video.
That’s Wilbur. He, he has no, no shame.

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. I hope you enjoyed this deep dive into Platform Decay. I will have links to all of the books that she mentioned in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 721. Or, if you would like to watch the episode, head over to our YouTube channel, Smart Podcast Trashy Books. It’s linked in the show notes as well.

I end every episode with a terrible joke. This week’s joke comes from stockinitial4460 on Reddit, and they are wonderful. Stockinitial4460, I hope you’re having a wonderful day!

What do you call a melancholy robot?

Give up? What do you call a melancholy robot?

A sigh-borg. 

[Laughs] It’s so bad! I just have this moment where I can really just hear all of you going, Oh, Sarah. A sigh-borg. Considering how much time Murderbot spends thinking about sighing, which it can’t actually do, this seemed like a perfect joke.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week. And in the words of my favorite retired podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening. You’re welcome for talking!

[end of music]