717. Archangel’s Finale with Nalini Singh

Sarah Wendell: Hello there, and welcome to episode number 717 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and if you read the title you know my guest this week is Nalini Singh. Nalini is back to talk about Archangel’s Eternity, the final Guild Hunter book, which I have been calling Archangel’s Finale. We’ve got questions from readers and listeners, and we’ve got some behind-the-scenes details about how Nalini organizes the massive worlds that she’s built in her series. Plus I have some major teases for the next Psy-Changeling book and what she’s working on right now.

You can find the video of this episode on our YouTube channel if you’d like to watch us, and you can find all of the books we mention at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 717.

I have a compliment this week, which is so much fun.

To Sol A.: Hidden inside the most popular fan art in every single fandom on Tumblr is a secret reference to your name or the fact that you make everyone who knows you have a better day.

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Support for this episode comes from Hatch. You know how when you finish a romantasy and you just need the next thing immediately? Hatch has made that thing. It’s called Ophelia, an original audio drama inspired by Hamlet where Ophelia finally gets to be the main character. Forbidden magic, a crumbling kingdom, a slow-burn love triangle with a prince and a very guarded, very intriguing best friend – the kind of love triangle where you will absolutely pick a side and you will not be quiet about it. Book one of the three-part series is now available for free wherever you stream, with new chapters dropping every Tuesday. For books two and three, check out hatch.co/Ophelia or find the link in the show notes. And as a treat, I have a sample of chapter one at the end of this episode so you can experience Ophelia for yourself. Thank you to Hatch for sponsoring this episode.

All right, are you ready to talk about Guild Hunters, archangels, Psy-Changeling, and everything in the Nalini-verse? Which is a word I just made up? All right, let’s do this: on with the podcast.

[music]

Sarah: Well, hello, Nalini Singh!

Nalini Singh: Well, hello, Sarah Wendell!

Sarah: How you doing?

Nalini: I’m good! How are you?

Sarah: I am very good, and I need to tell you, the last time we talked, we did talk about this book a little bit because you were in the process of writing it, but at that time I was like, I need to ask you about your desk chair, ‘cause it looks really comfortable? And you were like, No, it’s a gaming chair! It’s super comfortable! So I just need you to know I upgraded to a gaming chair because of you.

Nalini: Yeah!

Sarah: I am en-, I am ensconced in, like, the greatest of ways? So thank you for making my entire self more comfortable.

Nalini: Yay! I’m so glad it’s working for you! It looks really cool.

Sarah: It’s very nice. It has a foot rest and everything; when I’m feeling, like, extra lazy, I can put my feet up!

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, welcome back!

Nalini: Oh, it’s so nice to be back. I love chatting to you.

Sarah: Well, thank you! Are you here to make readers cry again?

Nalini: Yes, yes. This book is –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – is, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. We’re, we’re not even going to pretend like nope. This is, this is purely Nalini is going to reach in and grab all of your emotions and slowly pull them out. When we last talked, you, you mentioned how much working on this book was making you cry. Like, you joked like, you know, that mug full of reader tears, this book is full of author tears, and you were, like, weeping while you were writing it, and it was so hard. And first of all, those comments generated a fair amount of interest from people who were like, Ooh, tell me more. I’m like, Sorry, that’s all I’ve got. I realize that it, it, it actually has a different title, but I’ve been calling it Archangel’s Finale in my head?

[Laughter]

Nalini: Which is very appropriate.

Sarah: I mean, it is the series finale.

Nalini: Yeah.

Sarah: Were you, were you crying for the whole process?

Nalini: Yes. And when I go back now and I, you know, I reread sections or I have to pull an excerpt or something, I’m still just hit by this wave of emotion. You know, I said to someone the other day, you know, This book holds my heart, and it really does. It’s like saying goodbye to friends –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – that I’ve known for over fifteen years, and –

Sarah: I mean, that’s definitely true for readers, too.

Nalini: Yeah. It is, is the same. So, like, I feel like readers shouldn’t feel like they’re alone in their tears at all?

[Laughter]

Nalini: I am right there with you. And even though I know I can write short stories and other things, it’s not this arc, you know, that we’ve been on this journey with them for –

Sarah: No.

Nalini: – for so long, and – but at the same time, you know, it’s not the tears of this is wrong or anything like that. It’s, I know it’s the right time? I know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – this book is what it needs to be? I’m very happy with it, and, you know, just, just so nobody’s stressed out, you know, the readers who’ve, who’ve read early copies have come back and said they cried a lot, but they’re also feel like it was a fitting end. So that makes me so happy, and I hope, you know, you know, when it’s out there in the world – [laughs] – that all of you that pick it up will, will feel the same way.

Sarah: I, I actually feel kind of bad for you doing press and media and promotion for this book because you’re going to keep having to talk about how sad it made you.

[Laughter]

Nalini: Yeah.

Sarah: Listen, everybody, I cried too. You’re going to cry. We’re going to get through this together. This sounds like it’s going to be a very cathartic press tour.

Nalini: Yeah, yeah. So I’m glad –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: – most of it I’m doing online, so – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yes.

Nalini: – I don’t have to, you know. I do have a, a live event in Auckland on, on release day, and so I, I literally have bought little boxes of tissues to give out to everyone?

Sarah: Nooo! [Gasps] Please tell me you are saving some, because I know readers will want the commemorative Nalini Made Me Cry tissues.

Nalini: I’m sure! Yeah, yeah We bought extra.

Sarah: Commemorative tissue boxes! I love it so much! It’s so perfect. It’s so mean and so perfect!

Nalini: But I’ll be also using those, ‘cause I’m sure…

Sarah: Oh yes!

Nalini: – probably, like, pulling them out to dry my tears. But yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s been a journey. Yeah.

Sarah: I have a lot of questions from, from different parts of my Patreon and from Lara who loves the series and was, like, slowly trying to pace herself through the books to –

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: – reach the end at the right time. And she wanted to know what your favorite part of writing the evolution of Elena and Raphael’s relationship was.

Nalini: [Deep breath] Ooh. You know, the favorite part was, has been the growth in both of them. If you go back to Angel’s Blood and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – you see who they are. And I think the very visible growth is with Raphael, right? ‘Cause he’s, he turns from this very cold, very remote immortal who honestly is not very nice. [Laughs]

Sarah: I was going to say, he was kind of a jerk at times?

Nalini: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: Bit of a putz.

Nalini: So –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: He was, yeah. And, and, you know, that went with my whole thing of writing about the inhumanity of immortality and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – what it does to you? But Elena has actually had just as much growth through the series, if you look at it, for, for her own grief and her family and actually how she interacts with Raphael and her understanding of what it means to be in this role as the consort of an archangel –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – and – and then just seeing their growth together, you know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – in that relationship arc? It’s been just fabulous, and I truly believe that theirs is like this epic romance, you know, that’s going to go on forever! [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, I mean, they are immortal, so, I mean, it works out that way.

Nalini: That’s right!

Sarah: I also love that in the beginning, Elena is the audience surrogate to introduce us to this whole world, because she is in this world as a newcomer and is like, Whoa, holy cow, this is a lot. And she has to learn all of the political landscape of, you know, feuds and hard feelings and things that have gone on for millennia. And she has to learn to balance, you know, a mortal perspective with now being immortal. I often wonder if she ever looked at all of these people and was like, Could all of you just grow up for like five seconds?

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Would that be possible? [Laughs]

Nalini: Absolutely. Absolutely, she has had moments where she’s like, Seriously, seriously, you are five hundred years old and –

Sarah: Yes! At this big age, this is how you are acting.

[Laughter]

Nalini: Because that was one of the things I wanted to explore, which is that some people just never grow up in –

Sarah: Yeah!

Nalini: – in immortality. They can – especially if they have, you know, they have wealth, and they literally just spend their lives kind of just frittering it away, you know? And so –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – to contrast that against the, the lives of the humans who are in this world, they’re constantly striving because they know they have this one lifetime.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: And that’s beautiful too, because it’s some – I don’t want to spoil anything, but you know, people are choosing to have that mortal lifetime, even when they have a choice to, you know, to become a vampire and live on for longer. So I think it’s been a series that, as we’ve gone along, I think we’ve had a lot more room to explore this idea of Is immortality, you know, the, the best of the best, or is, is – it’s who we choose, you know, what we choose –

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: – when we have a choice. Like, it’s for, not for everyone. You know, immortality is not for everyone, and they’re okay with that! And even some immortals are like, I’ve, I’ve had enough! You know?

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: I’ve had enough of – going into sleep forever; don’t disturb me. And that’s it. So I really enjoyed exploring the complexities of –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – what it means to live forever. [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s a very prescient and, and contemporary concept, too, because a lot of what’s happening globally is, you know, people with an enormous amount of wealth and resources are acting and behaving in ways that seem to indicate that they’re trying to beat death. Like my life is so great, I just, I just refuse to die. Whether it’s like I’m going to build bunkers under islands in Hawaii, or I’m going to have a, you know, secret place where I go and, and – or I’m going to try to stop the process of my aging. There’s a lot of people who have a lot of money, and their focus seems to be being afraid about dying, which, sorry, buddy: comes for us all.

But it’s also very interesting from a romance perspective, because, you know, we talk a lot in romance – and I know you’ve been on umpti-pedrillion panels about this – about how the, you know, the fundamental of romance, the fundamental portion of it is love and the human need for love, and you’ve done both here. You’ve wrestled with not only the human aspect of love, but also the primal human fear of death, and have explored what that means. You know, in a romance series.

Does it really chap your ass when people are like, Wow, romance is so fluffy?

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s so silly. It’s so dumb. [Laughs]

Nalini: Oh my gosh, yeah. I’m, I mean, I am, I am a hardcore romance person, so I, I will just tell them like it is. I think –

Sarah: Yep.

Nalini: – I think people get – and I mean, I’m preaching to the choir here, but basically, you know, people get fixated on it has to have a happy ending. They don’t understand that it’s about the journey?

Sarah: Yes.

Nalini: Like, we read for the journey, and the happy ending is the thing of comfort. And we all need comfort in this life. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, oh yes!

Nalini: You know? So yeah, I had a, I had a discussion with, actually, a very, very nice person, and they just had no idea about the romance field at all, and we’d just come across each other in completely different contexts. And he said, Ah, is there much you can do with romance? And then of course I was off, and I was giving him the history and, like, the A to Z, and he – to, to be fair, he was quite fascinated, and, and he was like, Oh! Yeah, I didn’t think about that! And like, it was, it was very interesting. So I think sometimes, sometimes people just have no idea? Like, he literally had no idea. He’d never run across romance, really, in his life, I suppose, except for his own romance. [Laughs] So yeah, it, it can lead into some interesting conversations?

But at the same time – I think you’ll understand this too – if I come across someone who I know is not really talking to me in good faith, I –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – no longer have the patience – [laughs] –

Sarah: No!

Nalini: – so I, I will just nope out of that conversation, ‘cause I, I have better things to do with my time. [Laughs]

Sarah: I do not need that conversation.

Nalini: No.

Sarah: And I just, I just know that people who are list-, who will be listening to this will hear this story and be like, Of all of the authors to say, Oh, I didn’t know you could do that much with romance, of all the authors to say that to, you say that to Nalini Singh. Are you out of your mind?

[Laughter]

Sarah: What – like, that dude picked the worst possible person to say that to. ‘Cause you – I mean, we’ve talked about this in prior episodes, but the word “romantasy” came way, way, way late, because that’s what we’ve been doing for a while. And you started one of the most complex worlds with the Psy-Changeling series. [Laughs] What an absolutely wild thing to say! Oh my gosh! I’m so tickled.

So I, I suspect I, that I know the answer, but have you always known where you were going with this series?

Nalini: Yeah. I, with all my series, I, I need to know where I’m going. The one thing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – I don’t know is, I don’t know how many books it’ll take to get there?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: Because –[laughs] – I, I know – so, for example, this particular book, I, I have a notebook in which I’ve written four titles, and it’s the last four books. And I knew we were going four, three, two, one, you know?

Sarah: Ohhh wow.

Nalini: And so that’s at least five years ago I would have written in that notebook, so. Because I think for a strong series, you need to know where you’re leading readers, especially the kind of series I write, because there are different kinds of series.

There’s the kind of series I wrote in my contemporary where it’s, it’s a group of, like, rugby players, or a group of brothers, where you tell each story and there’s a light interconnection in there, but you can read them all kind of standalone and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: But this kind of series where you’ve built, where I’ve built this whole world –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – and I’m taking you on an arc through that world, I think it’s really important to know what the, the sort of finale is, because –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – it’s satisfying, right? As a –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – as a reader, this is what I love about these kinds of series, where it’s like, Oh, I got the payoff. You know, I, I hung on for the ride and I got the payoff. And so that’s what I like to do?

And the reason I don’t necessarily always know how long it will take is sometimes I plot out these timelines, and, but then the timeline stretches, because you realize –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – I can’t have, like, a massive gap between books. So then things fluctuate, and also  certain characters sometimes are only meant to be secondary characters, and they turn up. Especially this book has been interesting – this series, I should say – ‘cause when I started it was something unusual to do, which was the first three books were Elena and Raphael, and then I had –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – Dmitri, which was really unusual at the time, because if, even with urban fantasy, if you’re following a couple, you followed that couple and –

Sarah: Through the whole series, yeah.

Nalini: Through the whole series. So this series is longer because I have explored other people around them.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: And I’ve loved doing that. I’ve loved – I like writing big casts, and I like having –

Sarah: Yes, I, I’ve noticed!

[Laughter]

Nalini: – these enormous casts, but I also love having the room to explore their lives as well as – because they’re having full lives that we’d never see except for intersections with the main couple. So being able to go into their whole lives has been really wonderful and, you know, I have to give kudos to Cindy, my editor, for always being like, Okay! You know, Go for it. Like, to, to give me the room to, to flex with this series as needed. So there’ve been a few surprise books where I’m like, Oh yeah! But yeah, that, that background arc with Elena and Raphael has always been –

Sarah: You’ve always known where that was going.

Nalini: – we know, we – yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: I’ve known where, where I’m going. Yeah.

Sarah: I love the idea that, you know, you’re just sitting at your desk and you’re writing a secondary character, and then you’re like, Oh, you too? You too. Now I’ve got to write a book for you as well. Okay, fine. Get the notebook out, add in a couple more books.

Nalini: [Laughs] Exactly. It is like that sometimes, I tell you!

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Nalini: It’s like, you’re meant to just be a secondary character, you know. What are you doing? [Laughs]

Sarah: You’re talking too much, pal. What is happening here? Yep.

So do you know if, is there any significance for you for this book being book eighteen?

Nalini: No. It’s, it’s, that’s where it ended up, and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – I was like, okay! I mean, I think if I’d really thought about it, I would have been like, maybe I should go to twenty, but that would have been just for no reason. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, you would have just been stretching it out?

Nalini: Yeah. Eighteen is, you know, eighteen is, it just felt right, and I was like, Yep, this is, this is it. Yeah.

Sarah: Okay. So I’m going to tell you something: there is actually a lot of significance in the number eighteen. So in Jewish culture, every letter of the Hebrew alphabet also has a numeric value, so it’s like –

Nalini: Hmm.

Sarah: – Jewish numerology; it’s called the gematria. And the number eighteen is highly significant because the word chai or life totals eighteen. The Chet and the Yod are eight and ten, and together the word chai has a numeric value of eighteen. It represents an extremely lucky number in Jewish culture. It signifies good luck and longevity and health. And when you toast, instead of, you know, saying cheers, you say l’chaim, to life, and when you give gifts for a Jewish event, you give them in multiples of eighteen. So if you go to, like, a Jewish charity, you might notice that the pre-filled in amounts may be 18, 56, et cetera. Eighteen is an extremely significant number in the gematria and in Jewish culture.

So I saw that this ended on eighteen and how you were mixing all of these different cultures and religions, and I was like – [gasps] – Did she do that on purpose? Okay, so you can totally steal this answer and be like, Absolutely, I planned it this way! [Laughs]

Nalini: Yeah! I, I love it though. I love that! I love that there’s so much meaning to the, to…

Sarah: Oh, it’s a hugely meaningful number.

Nalini: Yeah!

Sarah: I was very excited. I was like, Well, maybe she doesn’t know –

Nalini: Yeah!

Sarah: – and that’s also cool!

Nalini: [Laughs] If I, if I ever get asked to talk to like a, like a Jewish, you know, book club, I will be…

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – Yes, yes! This is –

Sarah: Absolutely!

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: L’chaim!

Nalini: No, I, I love that it’s worked out that way. That’s, yeah, that’s really beautiful! Thank you for telling me.

Sarah: Isn’t that cool?

Nalini: Yeah!

Sarah: So what was your phrase for this book?

Nalini: You know, it was “eternity.” [Laughs]

Sarah: Just eternity.

Nalini: Just eternity. It was the whole – it just resonates through the whole book. Like, I had the title –

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: – for this book from when I knew it would be the final book. I knew it was eternity. So that was it. That’s –

Sarah: That’s your, that’s, that’s actually, obviously, a very good word. It also sort of emphasizes, Okay, so when we talk about Happily Ever After, I mean, like, really Ever –

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and After. Like, I really mean it, ‘cause it’s eternity. There’s no going back!

Nalini: I think we’ve talked about this in previous podcasts, but when I started the series, you know, I was, I wanted to explore what it means – like, you get to the end of a book with immortals, at the time that I was reading, and it would be, say the main character becomes a vampire from a human, human to vampire –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – and that’s the end of the book, that’s the Happy Ever After, and I was just like, No, but, but what happens next? [Laughs] You know, she’s a vampire now! So I get to explore that, so that’s why, you know, I get to explore the whole eternity of this transition, and you know, it’s been an amazing ride.

Sarah: It’s so cool to watch this series keep be-, being discovered by so many different readers, ‘cause there’s so many new waves of romance readers coming in every few years, and to see more and more people discover these books. I think it helps that they are perennially gorgeous.

Nalini: They are beautiful. I love the, the covers. Like, both sides of the, the world, the covers are so beautiful.

Sarah: When I saw the, the US cover for this one with the two of them, first I was like –

Nalini: Yeah.

Sarah: – Ooh, boots? What boots are these? And also, Gosh, that’s gorgeous!

Nalini: It is so beautiful. It was, I always knew that for the final book I wanted Elena and Raphael on, on the cover.

Sarah: Yep.

Nalini: So it was a hard ask, you know, ‘cause Raphael has never been on a cover. So –

Sarah: No!

Nalini: – to put him on a cover in a way that speaks to who these characters are and is really beautiful and striking and – Tony just –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Nalini: – hit it out of the park. I mean, he did – it came when that artwork sort of landed in my inbox. I was just like, Eee! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah. It’s so striking. Like, I imagine if you made poster sizes, people would buy them.

Nalini: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s so beautiful. Actually –

Nalini: I know Tony used to do…

Sarah: – that would be a cool thing for Tony to do.

Nalini: Yeah, he used to, but I’ll have to get in touch with him, ‘cause I need one for myself? For my…

Sarah: Of course, obviously! First customer.

Nalini: Yeah, yes. So, yeah, I just, I’m, every time I look at that cover, I just feel, I feel that Ahhh! feeling? You know, I can’t, I don’t know if you can hear this on the podcast, but basically I’m just, it’s the, the sigh, the sigh of just the beauty of it.

Sarah: The happy sigh!

Nalini: Yeah, happy sigh, and also my heart squeezes, you know, ‘cause it is, it is so perfect for –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – the, the book? Yeah.

And then the UK as well, their, their style is different, but they managed to get the, that same feeling of togetherness and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – the intent-, intensity of the emotion in there, and I just feel so lucky that I’ve got these stunning covers for the finale.

Sarah: Oh yeah! I mean, they’re gorgeous. And also, I hadn’t realized, oh, of course he’s also on the UK cover, because he’s embracing –

Nalini: Yes.

Sarah: – Elena, who you’re seeing from the back. Oh, he’s got really nice –

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: – nice arms? I was very impressed.

Nalini: There, there was a lot of discussion. I was like, ooh, yeah, you know? A little –

Sarah: [Laughs] Raphael’s arms were a hot topic?

Nalini: [Laughs] Oh yeah. I mean, they’re good arms!

Sarah: I mean, they are pretty hot.

So I know we’ve talked about this before, but more than one person asked me this question. There are a lot of characters. You’ve mentioned that you’d create a secondary character, and all of a sudden they have their own show. It’s like you’re running a network with a lot of programs. [Laughs] And now you’re drawing every storyline that you’ve created to a close. How do you keep track of everything? I know some of it’s in your head, but I don’t know if your brain is like my brain, but my brain likes forgetting things, like a lot.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like a lot more than it used to. So how are you keeping track of this whole world and everything you needed to do? How big is this notebook, basically? Like, yo, yo big?

[Laughter]

Nalini: Enormous. But –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: – in general, for people, the characters, I don’t tend to forget the storylines? I remember because they’re just in my head. They’re, they’re continuing on with their lives, and so I, I can peek in and look at what their storyline is doing. But I do have to check, or I’m, I’m, I should say I’m completely paranoid about double-checking all the minor details? Like, can be as simple as wing colour.

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: You know, if, if a character is through the series, but maybe hasn’t been like a main character but has appeared, like, multiple times through the series. And I will make sure I absolutely double-check that it’s correct. And –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – also, there are places where things have happened to people which will have left a mark, and so those kind of things. Or, what else do I check? I checked geography, like, a lot. Like, if I’ve said it takes this long to get from destination A to destination B, I have to make sure there’s a reason if that changes? If there’s a time jump, then we might have things, technology might have sped up, you know.

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: So things like that. So I do, I do keep very detailed notebooks, and I started this when I wrote the second Psy-Changeling book, actually, because Psy-Changeling was my first series.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: And I didn’t realize how much I would need to refer to what happened in Slave to Sensation when I started writing Visions of Heat, and that’s when I learned, Oh, you have to keep, you know, like a continuity Bible. And –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – so I started, I just started handwriting these things in, and they are still handwritten, because I don’t like to come off my writing screen when I’m checking stuff? So I much prefer having all my notebooks around me. They’re actually binders.

And so the binders have things like, so let’s say for Guild Hunter, Guild Hunter will have –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – has, you know, like, the main characters have, like, a – what are those called? Segments of a binder?

Sarah: Section?

Nalini: Sections, yeah.

Sarah: So there, there’s, there’s sections, and you’ve got, you’ve got –

Nalini: Yeah.

Sarah: – dividers.

Nalini: Dividers, yeah!

Sarah: Yeah, you’ve got tab dividers.

Nalini: So there’s like the Elena and Raphael divider. And then there’s –

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: – then there’s The Seven. Then –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – there is the, you know, the other archangels. Because I had to have a list of – when I first began, I didn’t realize how much we would see of the Cadre of Ten. So the first page of this Bible is literally just their names –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – how old they are, and just a very quick sketch of their physical appearance, because I thought, Oh – you know, when I started this series, I didn’t realize it would be eighteen books.

[Laughter]

Nalini: So I…

Sarah: Sorry, buddy, you’re stuck with that hair color for a real long time.

Nalini: Yeah, but then as I went on, you know, each, each of the Cadre of Ten would get a page to themselves with, with more details, and then I would have, you know, the Guild Hunters would have, like, a section. And then I have things like, like the geography and maps? For example when I wrote Archangel’s Storm, and it was set –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – in India. And I had Archangel Fort and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – like, the map of the fort. So I –

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: – I really like writing scenes where it’s not just they flew somewhere vaguely. I like to have they flew to, you know, they flew over the pink palaces of Jaipur or whatever like that.

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: So it’s, it’s more specific, and I think it gives more color and more life to a book? And, you know, that was way back at the start; even in, I think it’s in Angel’s Blood, I have her running, and she’s going around, like, the museum, specific museum and stuff like that. So at that time, you know, Google Earth – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yep.

Nalini: – is my friend? But yeah, especially in alternate worlds where I’ve changed things? So I have a massive map of New York where, you know, I have changed a building into Archangel Tower, or I’ve changed a building into the Legion building.

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: So I need to know all of those things. So yeah! Yeah! Basically, it’s, it’s whatever helps me tell the story, and I think every writer has a different amount of information they need?

Sarah: Yes.

Nalini: And what, the other thing I do is I reread a lot? So –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – Ashwini will put together, we call these manifestos? [Laughs] She calls them manifestos. She’ll put together a manifesto of, like, a particular character and basically tag every single appearance of that character through the series, and then I’ll go and read all of them so that I maintain continuity of the character as I’m writing it. And you know, if there’s writers listening to this, like younger writers or emerging writers, like, I would so recommend that if you’re writing a series, because that way the character remains their characterization, even if you write a series over multiple years, over a decade, you know? So I think it’s really important for series writers to reread our work?

Sarah: Oh yes.

Nalini: Yeah. So anyway, that’s my very long answer. [Laughs]

Sarah: No, that makes a lot of sense. It’s also really interesting because, you know, it indicates that because you’re handwriting things, that reinforces it in your mind, as opposed to –

Nalini: Yes.

Sarah: – if it was a typed document, the handwriting, the handwriting, A, you don’t want to switch from your screen, but also, you remember writing it down. Like, I know if I handwrite things –

Nalini: Yes.

Sarah: – I remember, Oh, it was on the right page somewhere in the middle.

Nalini: Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s how I used to study at university, you know. I –

Sarah: Oh, I did too!

Nalini: – in law school –

Sarah: I would write down –

Nalini: Yeah!

Sarah: – everything.

Nalini: Yeah, write down, you know, legal briefs. I’m, I’m writing things down just to, to remember, and it is, it does lock it in my memory. Like, we’re talking now, and I can literally in my head see the page in the binder where I’ve written Elena at the top, and then I’ve got her family, you know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – I’ve got like a little family, what is it called? Family tree.

Sarah: Family tree.

Nalini: And then I’ve got family tree, and I’ve got – I can, I can visually see it because I, I handwrote it myself, and I can see the page for the Cadre, and I can see Raphael’s page and – so yeah.

Sarah: It does reinforce the memory. Have you thought about publishing these as like a collector’s edition?

Nalini: Ahhh! [Laughs] You know, people have asked me this, and I’ve, I’ve sort of said, Well, maybe at the end when I’m done. But I don’t know, because it’s very idiosyncratic? Like, it’s not –

Sarah: Yeah?

Nalini: – designed for anyone but me to comprehend –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – [laughs] – what this is? And I don’t know. I’ll leave it, I’ll leave the question open. We’ll see?

Sarah: ‘Cause, I mean, you could do a Kickstarter campaign with –

Nalini: I could! I could!

Sarah: – with the Field Guide and then, you know, like, special editions of the different novels at different tiers, and you could do all sorts of things. I –

Nalini: [Laughs] I could do all sorts of things! I, I would need to hire like a whole team!

Sarah: That’s fine! People are easy. No it’s – [laughs] – it’s very easy to hire a team and make something happen. But it’s, it’s always fascinating to me to read the behind-the-scenes stuff about a book? Or even a book –

Nalini: Mm.

Sarah: – that is pretending to be the behind-the-scenes, like a book that’s pretending to gossip with me. Everything that goes into the construction of the primary story, I find all of the behind-the-scenes stuff so fascinating, so it’s not surprising to me that readers are like, Are you going to publish this? I want to read it; it’s cool! Even if it’s basically a list of stuff they already know, knowing that you wrote it and why makes it, makes it valuable to readers.

Nalini: Yeah, it is, I can see that being actually a fun project for me, ‘cause I, I am a reader myself, so I do –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Nalini: – I do buy the behind-the-scenes stuff personally as well. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Nalini: I think it – however, the way I would want to do it, I would need to take a significant amount of time. So I would –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – have to put that into my schedule and then just, really – I would want to get artwork, for example, for –

Sarah: Oh, goodness, yes.

Nalini: – you know, the characters and stuff like that. So that’s a, it’s a, it’s an, it’s actually a good idea for a long-term type project, so maybe I should put it in my head for, like, I don’t know, the twenty-fifth anniversary of when the series began or something, so let me ponder it.

Sarah: Oooh!

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Wait, now I need –

Nalini: But don’t –

Sarah: – to know when that is.

Nalini: – no promises, no promises.

Sarah: So wait, Angel’s Blood came out in 2009.

Nalini: Mmm.

Sarah: So that would be 2034.

Nalini: For 2034! Okay.

Sarah: You’ve got time! 2034, people. You heard it here first, breaking news.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’ll be, it’ll be ready in 2034; set your calendars. Don’t, you know, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll guess maybe May, maybe, maybe May 15th. You heard it here. Yeah, I’m just locking you into terrible things. I’m terrible at, like, giving other people work. I’m, I have an idea for you! And they’re like, Oh, Sarah…

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: So I’m assuming you haven’t packed away all these notebooks yet. Was there a moment where you were done and you were like, Oh wow, I’m going to clean this up for the last time?

Nalini: No, because – [laughs] – in my head I’m like, I might, I might just use it for a short story or something, because this is how I let go? So I don’t know if anyone’s ever noticed, but I don’t type “The End” on my books, and I never have. Maybe at the very beginning I might have tried it out, and I just, I just never have, and I don’t like it? So – [laughs] – for me, the story goes on, even if I’m not writing the books, and the, the notebooks and the binders will stay in my office forever.

But you know, this is the, the process I go through with every book when I finish. Either when I finish or when I start the next project, I do a clean-up of my desk and I file everything away, but you know, every so often something will come up and I’ll need to pull it out again. So it could be someone asking about art.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: So I know the local team in New Zealand are doing something, and they asked me to check something about the Guild Hunter world, so I pulled it out again. So I –

Sarah: Yeah!

Nalini: – hope that continues, you know? I hope I keep getting these moments where I go back to the notes. And you know, I’m going to reread the books myself and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – do the shorts for – because I think Eternity does, I do, you know, it does a really good job of tying up a lot of storylines, but obviously there are going to be minor threads that need a little –

Sarah: You want to visit!

Nalini: You know, I want to visit, or I just want to visit –

Sarah: Yeah!

Nalini: – for no reason.

Sarah: Yeah!

Nalini: Just – ‘cause that’s how I started writing the short stories anyway. I just started to visit people for no reason, like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – because I just was nosy. Wanted to see what everyone was doing. I missed everyone. So I think I’ll keep doing that, yeah.

Sarah: “Elena and Raphael go to IKEA” by Nalini Singh.

Nalini: That’s right!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: I mean, I literally wrote Lucas going, you know, grocery shopping with, with the baby, so – [laughs] – and it’s good fun! I enjoy that kind of thing. Like, I like when other authors, you know, they send it out in their newsletter. They, they’re like, Oh, I wrote this scene. I’m like, Yeah! What is it? And I think it’s like –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Nalini: – you know, the scene from the cat’s point of view, and I’m like, I’m up for that! [Laughs]

Sarah: A hundred percent. And also, it’s like fanfic-ing your own writing.

Nalini: Yes, it is; it definitely is.

Sarah: You’re, you’re, you’re writing fanfic of yourself. I mean, it’s canon ‘cause you wrote it and you’re the author, but it’s your own fanfic. Like, Oh, let’s go visit with them. Wonder what they’re doing? IKEA, really!

Nalini: Exactly!

Sarah: Okay!

Nalini: And I think, I, I personally think writers should be fans of our own work, because I know for me, my best work, you know, all the stuff I write is because I’m just so into it. I am so into it.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Nalini: I am totally into it. And, like, I was working on something recently and I was like, It’s not – like, I wasn’t having that feeling? Like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – I knew it wasn’t, it wasn’t right, and so I, I just scrapped it and started again. And the next time round, and I was like, Got it, and, like –

Sarah: Yep.

Nalini: – I felt the, I felt the, you know, it sings and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: So yeah. I love, I love that feeling of playing in my own world –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – and there’s so much room as well with these created worlds. There’s, there’s so much room, especially eighteen books! You know, it’s a massive world, so –

Sarah: And they don’t, and they don’t die! They, they’re not, they’re not dying, either. You got a lot of time.

[Laughter]

Nalini: Yes, so yeah.

Sarah: I, I, I get it! I mean, not only am I a fan of your books, but I’m also fan of my books! I like my writing! I’m –

Nalini: Yeah!

Sarah: – really into, I’m really into my writing, and I think you and I have talked about this: sometimes when you’re writing, you’re just writing your own catnip. You’re telling yourself the story you want to most read or experience, because it’s fun!

Nalini: Absolutely! Absolutely, and I think that’s how a lot of writers begin, ‘cause we’re like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – Can’t quite find what I want to read, so I’m just –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – I’m just going to write it. And that’s how – and then it’s away you go!

Sarah: Off you, off, off you go. Now, looking back at this series, were there books or books that were easier or harder to write? Do you look back and, like, look at a particular title and go, Ooh, yeah, that was, that was a tough one?

Nalini: Not necessarily, because each book, I, I feel like it’s its own journey?

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: Like, each has a different tempo and a tone, and I think this particular book, obviously there was a lot riding on it because it is the final book, but at the same time –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – everything had built up to this moment, so it was easy in that sense, because I knew? So it’s that same feeling. Every book has these hard parts and the, the easier parts?

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: And yeah. So, you know, some books just made me laugh more, and some books are, I cried more. Some books were a bit more technical in terms of –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – like, the battle scenes and stuff? Like when we were writing, when I was writing War, I, because of the way I write, it’s like a continuous thread? So –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – it’s hard to sort of delineate it into specific books, because even when I’m writing one book, I was making notes for maybe multiple other books in the future?

Sarah: Yeah. It’s all, it’s all interconnected.

Nalini: Yes! Yeah, I find these kind of questions very hard to answer because it is all interconnected. It’s, it’s like this –

Sarah: And so it’s not like a, like a line that goes up and down. It’s more of a, of a branching in every direction sort of in a circle –

Nalini: Yes, yeah.

Sarah: – and all coming back –

Nalini: Because –

Sarah: – to a center core.

Nalini: Exactly. So, for example, in Eternity you catch a glimpse of Holly –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – and she is a character that has been in the books since, I think, ooh, yeah, book one! Book one!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: First book, and she’s had a whole life, you know, through these books, and so her existence interconnects in like a network with –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – everyone else’s, and yeah. So each book is its own thing, but it’s also linked in the background with lots of other stuff?

Sarah: I would ask you if there were scenes that were easy or hard to write, but I feel like any answer for that is a spoiler. So I’m just going to –

Nalini: Yeah, for this book…

Sarah: – I’m just going to just drive right by that question.

[Laughter]

Nalini: It’s massive spoilers for this book. I have to, I – so I, I, I am doing like a spoiler, like a virtual chat in, I think, June?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: So everyone’s going to have like a month to read the book, and then we can have, like, a spoiler discussion!

Sarah: Oh, I love this!

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Are you going to, are you going to host this on your website?

Nalini: No, I’m doing this with the Ashland Library? So…

Sarah: Oh, brilliant!

Nalini: So I will, I will send out the link for everyone, so come prepared. It’s going to have massive spoilers. There is going to be no, no holding back on that one. So if you want a spoiler discussion, you know, so. It’s – I’m looking forward to that, because it is very hard to talk about this pre-release, ‘cause I don’t want to spoil everything, ‘cause there’s so much –

Sarah: No!

Nalini: – stuff in this book I just want people to discover as they’re reading it!

Sarah: Oh, of course! Drafting questions for the last book in an eighteen-book series where I don’t want to spoil anything is quite a trick, let me tell you.

Nalini: Yeah.

Sarah: Also, folks, if you’re curious, that’s Ashland, Massachusetts, Wednesday, June 10th; it’s a virtual event. I’ll have, put a link in the show notes. Don’t worry. We won’t –

Nalini: Oh, thank you!

Sarah: If I didn’t, I would be in trouble.

[Laughter]

Sarah: If I did not, I would be in deep doo-doo. Let me just be clear. I’ve got to make sure everyone knows where that is.

Even though we can’t ask about specific scenes, we, we know that you know where you’re going in a book. We know where you’re going in a series. What did you, what were the essentials for this absolutely massive ending? If you had a checklist of things that you had to tick off to make sure, All right, I’ve got it, not just the characters, but what were the essentials for this massive finale?

Nalini: So the most essential was to feel like it was a nice closure, right? Like, for the characters, Elena and Raphael, they are the centre, they have been the centre of this entire series, so getting to a point with them where it felt worth it –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – for all these books, all these things we’ve gone through with them? And then I had to address certain plot-based things like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – there were cadre who were injured in the war?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: And that went into sleep, and we kind of needed to know something about them, and I can’t tell you anything else. So that was another thing that was really important. I’m just trying to go back, ‘cause there were so many things. There were, like, certain characters that needed, we needed to address?

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: So I have a list, and I won’t say who they were, ‘cause you’ll read that in the book. And –

Sarah: Oh, of course. I do not expect spoilers.

Nalini: [Laughs] Yeah. In the end, it came back to Elena and Raphael because a lot of these things that we needed to know are connected to them, because they’re –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – they’re at the center of the series. And so as we go through their story, it connects; it’s, it’s, it’s like they’re like the touchstone and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – everybody else links in, so we can, I could, I could get a lot of information in on what people were doing in a very natural way because it’s just –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – part of their life? And I knew people would, for example, want to find out what was happening with Illium, you know, and his –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Nalini: – Aodhan and his new, his new reign as an archangel and stuff like that. So, you know, I, I hope I did it justice to all of these characters that we, we want to know about and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – at the same time, because this is a world, this is an immortal world, it would have felt false to completely tie everything up in little bows?

Sarah: No, of course not. Yeah.

Nalini: There’s room for people to grow in this, even in this ending, but I think it’s in, in a way that shows that we can trust this world now. We can leave them to grow; we can – this is what’s happening.

And obviously, there is something in this book that, that just opens a massive door, so if I do ever want to say I come back five years later, ten years later, whatever, there are, like, a couple of doors I could walk through. You know, it’s not like sequel bait. It’s not that –

Sarah: No.

Nalini: – kind of door. It’s more like there is something I could explore if I, if I wanted to, but even if I never did, I feel like everything is closed up enough that it’s satisfying for readers?

Sarah: That’s a complete piece. Yeah.

Nalini: It is a complete piece, yeah. So it’s, it’s, it is, it is something you can read from start to finish now and have a sense of satisfaction. That you got your answers. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: Yeah.

Sarah: Your writing and the way you write a series kind of reminds me of, remember playing Trivial Pursuit?

Nalini: Ooh, a long time ago. Yeah.

Sarah: And you know the, and the game piece was like a little pie, and you had to make your way around the board and get a little pie piece to put into the center little empty thing, so you had to get a bunch of pie pieces. That’s kind of how your series are! You can –

Nalini: Yes.

Sarah: They’re individual pie pieces, but the, also, the goal is to put them all together in the right order.

Nalini: Yes, absolutely. That is, that is a very good – what’s the word?

Sarah: Analogy?

Nalini: Yes, analogy.

Sarah: I think it’s an analogy.

Nalini: Yeah, analogy.

Sarah: And it’s round, and it has spokes, and each piece is pointed together.

Nalini: Yeah, yeah. It is basically that, yeah. I like, I like everything to slot in together. I like knowing that lives continue in different ways –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – in, in the books and, and we’ve got a glimpse of it, and that’s enough! You know, that’s enough for what we need to know what’s happening, and – yeah, so the, in a way there wasn’t a checklist as such. It was more like around these people, what would I like to know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – if I was a reader? Like, what would I like to know? And just went all in with the heart. You know, heart forward, this book. [Laughs]

Sarah: I’m reminded of when we talked about Heart of Obsidian, and the entire conceit of the episode was me trying to get you to give spoilers as to, you know, what was happening. And you’re like, And there was a, there was a clue on the cover. And I was like, Oh no, now I’m doomed. I’m never going to find –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – a clue on the cover! I know better than to try to get you to give spoilers. I, I have been down this road before.

Nalini: And you know people will just be mad at you, Sarah, if you do get a spoiler.

Sarah: Oh, people would just be mad. Oh yeah. Spoilers are –

Nalini: They’ll just be mad, so. [Laughs]

Sarah: – spoilers are high drama.

Nalini: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah: So Tara wanted to know about –

Nalini: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – what’s next. I know this is a very common question. So Tara says, I hope we get more paranormal. Could we get any hints? Nalini has given us angels, vampire shifters, and Psy. What creatures will we get next? What is next for the Psy-Changelings? And I wrote in my own notes, Rat shifters, yes?

Nalini: [Laughs] So I can answer the Psy-Changeling question because the title’s online already. It’s Cold Redemption. It’s coming out in December. It is – the reason it’s coming out in December rather than the usual sort of July-August time is ‘cause I was late turning it in because I had – I started a whole different book, okay, and just a little –

Sarah: No – [laughs] – she’s like, I started a whole different book, okay? Like just, just give me a break!

Nalini: It just didn’t work! It just didn’t work. I thought, oh, this will be so nice! It’ll be, it’s all plotted out. I was so happy! I should know better. And then –

[Laughter]

Nalini: And then I just was like, this is not working! And the reason it wasn’t working was, like, these two other characters were like, Heeey! And I was like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: – I was like, That is not – no! No. Anyway, so I did. I, I wrote their book, and all I will say is I, I can’t wait for you to discover who these two are, because –

Sarah: Oh boy.

Nalini: Yeah. That, it might be the biggest surprise of the entire series, and I mean that from Slave to Sensation to now, so that’s all I will say.

Sarah: Okay! Okay, time out now. Time out, time out, time out, time out. I remember before Heart of Obsidian, there were people who were documenting every single clue as to who the heroine of Heart of Obsidian was, ‘cause we all knew it was Kaleb. We all know he was chasing, was it Brianna? Brenna…

Nalini: Sahara.

Sarah: Sahara, thank you! So he’s chasing Sahara, and there’s all of this, like, clues as to who it was that he was chasing. What was his quest all through the beginning of the books? Like, you remember this, right? Like, somebody broke down a whole legal argument about this. So if you’re saying that this is going to be a surprise when that was already a surprise, what are you doing?

Nalini: [Laughs] Look, look. I wrote a whole different book, okay? This is how big a surprise it was, because I –

Sarah: A whole different book! Okay, people, it’s fine.

Nalini: [Laughs] It’s – no, that’s what I mean. Like, I was surprised. So I don’t, I got, I don’t know what to tell you. So yeah, just have a little patience, and then once the blurb is out, you can –

Sarah: She asks for patience. Can you believe that nonsense?

Nalini: [Laughs] Yeah. And as for the next project, I have taken a lot of time. This, so this, the first half of this year is when I would have been writing like a Guild Hunter book –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – in my schedule. So I’ve taken a lot of time to work on some stuff, like several different things, and I really, I’m just taking my time to get really deep into them, because by the time readers saw Angel’s Blood or they saw Slave to Sensation, I’d already been with that world for quite a while?

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Nalini: So I want to do the same thing for what I’m working on now. I want to really – like, I, I can feel that it has the bones of something really good, but it needs a lot more, it needs a lot more of me in it. Like, it needs, I need to put more time in it. So it’s alive in my head the ways –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – the Psy-Changeling world and the Guild Hunter world are alive in my head. So that’s what I’m doing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – right now. That’s why I’m not talking too much about it, because let’s say I just never talk about it when I’m building these worlds, because I just need to be –

Sarah: Oh, you need to –

Nalini: – need to be alone like a hobbit in my cave – [laughs] – and just, just play with things and figure stuff out and – and sometimes, you know, sometimes it takes like a month to figure a particular thing out. So it’s been really, it’s been really nice, actually, to have this time to just work on something, and that’s, that’s what I’m doing. So, you know, watch this space, and when, when it’s ready –

Sarah: Well, now I have to talk to you again. That’s fine! I’m glad!

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: I don’t see you twice a year and randomly at Target anymore.

[Laughter]

Nalini: That’s right! I bought a Nutella the other day, and I thought of you. It was a little tiny –

Sarah: Ah!

Nalini: – bottle, though. [Laughs]

Sarah: Every time we make Nutella pizza – I think next weekend we’ll be making Nutella pizza – I think of you.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: If you, if you could ask for readers to take one thing from Archangel’s Eternity, what do you want readers to take from this book?

Nalini: I just want them to – as opposed to taking, I would just say I hope it gives them a feeling of great joy and satisfaction –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – and the feeling that, hey, we went on this adventure together and wow, how cool it was. And also the feeling of, hey, I want to go back and experience it again and then read it straight from one to eighteen. You know, that’s so fun. You know, I did it myself just –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: – in preparation to write this book, and I hope everyone’s happy with the ending, because I really appreciate that eighteen books is a commitment. So, you know, whether you came in at book one or you came in at book seventeen and then just glommed the entire series to be ready for this, I appreciate that so much because it’s a long series to, to keep running. And it’s not –

Sarah: And it covers a lot of time.

Nalini: It’s a lot of time! Because this book, it’s not like the books came out, like, in five years. You know, like you said, the first book came out in 2009! So we’ve been together for a long time, and by we I mean us, me and the readers, you know?

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: So I just hope that they feel like it was worth it. Yeah.

Sarah: What books are you reading right now that you would like to tell people about?

Nalini: What books am I reading right now? What did I read? So – see, this, see, when I get this question, all the books I’ve ever read go out of my brain and then…

Sarah: Oh yeah! My, first thing happens to me like, Oh, what’s a, so what’s a book?

Nalini: [Laughs] What’s a book?

Sarah: Is that a thing? What’s a book? Could you explain that?

Nalini: So I just finished Olivia Waite’s Nobody’s Baby. So it’s like a Miss Marple on a spaceship that’s going to a colony planet? But –

Sarah: Yes.

Nalini: So people don’t die, they just, they get new bodies, because it would be crazy to have, like, a full existence, you know, like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – kids and everything, ‘cause, you know, you would outgrow the ship. So anyway, it’s a very cool concept, and it’s like, they’re a novella length, I think. And I really enjoyed the first one. So I’ve just finished the second one; really enjoyed that.

And I read – just look at me in my head, brain, going, which books have you read, Nalini? ‘Cause I read every day, so there must be some books in there.

[Laughter]

Nalini: Oh, I read – oh, the name’s escaped me, but I was reading like a true crime thing about the mushroom murders in Australia?

Sarah: Ohhh! The woman who went out and –

Nalini: Yes, with the, the Beef Wellington?

Sarah: – in Leongatha.

Nalini: Yes!

Sarah: Yeess!

Nalini: So I read that, and that was fascinating ‘cause it was written by a journalist, and so he followed the trial, and so he was breaking everything down, and that was fascinating.

And then I’m –

Sarah: Was it Recipe for Murder or The Mushroom Murders? There are now two books!

Nalini: It’s, I think his first name’s Duncan?

Sarah: Duncan – oh, so that’s Recipe for Murder by Duncan McNab.

Nalini: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, I stand, correction: there’s also The Mushroom Tapes and Murder by Mushroom.

Nalini: Yes.

Sarah: There’s many mushroom books now. This –

Nalini: There’s, there’s – because I think it’s the kind of thing, it’s, it’s the kind of thing you write about in a book, right? It doesn’t happen in –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – real life? I think that’s why everybody’s like –

Sarah: And if you put it in a book, the editor would be like, No, come on. No.

Nalini: [Laughs] Come on. No.

Sarah: And, and she didn’t even erase her browser history. Come on, now. Yeah.

Nalini: And, and she wiped her phone like three times!

Sarah: Yeah!

Nalini: Even remotely.

Sarah: Right, like –

Nalini: So –

Sarah: Right! Who does that?

Nalini: And I think in this part of the, in this part of the world, it’s, like, such a massive thing! Like, everybody was talking about it. Like, if you just, in Australia and New Zealand, if you say mushroom, somebody’s going to come back with, you know, Leongatha, and so –

That was, so I read that, and then I read, oh, I read Ilona Andrews’ The Inheritance? That was, that was very cool. I don’t know what to call it, like an adventure? In, like, an alternate world, but with a hint of romance in the background? It’s mostly about her.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: And then I have a bunch of reading that I’ve got set aside because I’m working on something, and sometimes when I work on something I’m really into it, and so that’s why I’m reading, like, nonfiction or just completely different type books?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: So there’s a whole bunch of books that are stacked up on the bedside tables to, for me to dive into, which I can’t wait. And –

Sarah: So they’re about rat shifters then.

Nalini: [Laughs] You know what? I, when I told my editor, Oh, look, everyone’s in love with the Rat shifters, and she said, Umm, maybe you can publish that one yourself.

[Laughter]

Sarah: All right, well, she’s wrong is what I’m saying. She’s wrong, she’s wrong, I will tell her she’s wrong, ‘cause she’s wrong.

[Laughter]

Nalini: No. It was quite funny. She’s been great, though. She’s just let me do all kinds of crazy stuff. Yeah, I feel like…I never expected Teijan to be so beloved, but he is. So –

Sarah: I mean, he’s nifty! Come on!

Nalini: [Laughs] He’s – I mean, I do need to do some more sort of novellas, I think, in that world, the Psy-Changeling world in particular, because there are so many characters that I’m not going to be able to write full-length books about everybody, so I’m like, Okay, maybe I need to do some more novellas at some stage. Yeah.

Sarah: Can I make a book recommendation for you?

Nalini: Yes! Absolutely!

Sarah: Okay. I’ll email all of this to you; do not worry. So I read for an interview recently a nonfiction book called The Edge of Space-Time: Particles, Poetry, and the Cosmic Dream Boogie by Dr. Chanda Prescod-Weinstein. And it, she’s a theoretical physicist, and she basically explains theoretical physics and the concept of space-time through metaphor and Black feminist thought and Robert Frost and popular culture. And so there’s all of these different things that – some of which I know about – all of which are combining to explain to me theoretical physics, which I know nothing about. I was the least qualified person that interviewed this author in the history of the world. But I was reading this book, and there were paragraphs where I was like, All right, I’ve got, I’ve got to read that again, ‘cause my brain and science, we don’t do that a lot?

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: It was so interesting, because the book explains to you just basically what space is and the things that are constant and the things that are constantly shifting, and you sort of see yourself from that perspective? It, it just, it changed my whole outlook on things, just because –

Nalini: Hmmm!

Sarah: – I learned more about the way –

Nalini: Yeah.

Sarah: – that we are part of a giant cosmic expansion and timeline. It was very cool.

Nalini: That sounds fascinating, ‘cause, like, I am, I am sold by you saying that you were the least qualified person, because physics was my worst subject – [laughs] – in school.

Sarah: Oh God, me too? Oh, I was so bad at it! I have nightmares about having to be back in that class, man.

Nalini: I did not get it at all. So –

Sarah: Nooo!

Nalini: – I, I, I had such an, you know, like the art side brain with the science and the history and all that. Just, yeah, I was just like, yeah, can I go back to English class? So yeah –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Nalini: – I’m, I’m fascinated. I’m going to – [laughs] – going to have to read this, yeah.

Sarah: It’s very cool.

Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Nalini: If I wish to be found, the best place is still my website, NaliniSingh.com, because we do update that at least once a month.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: It has all the info, and you can join my newsletter, which I also send out once a month, unless there’s some, you know, like a new cover or something. ‘Cause I find social media a bit hit and miss. I am on Instagram as @AuthorNaliniSingh, and that’s the same on Facebook? AuthorNaliniSingh. Because, you know, I find that sometimes people see a post, and then other times five people see a post because of the algorithm, so just, you know, join the newsletter. I, I do put a lot into that and it’s probably my most direct way to contact readers? So I did join Threads when it started right at the beginning, and I have one post on there, I think, on that day.

[Laughter]

Nalini: …I – yeah, so that’s –

Sarah: Threads is where nuance goes to die. You don’t want to –

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: It, it’s a lot.

Nalini: It’s, you know, I think it’s, for me, I’ve been on this journey to really reclaim my attention? Like, I felt like –

Sarah: Yes.

Nalini: – a lot of these social media things were nip, nibbling away. And so –

Sarah: Yes.

Nalini: – that time is going into reading. I’ve just been working towards not looking at my phone, and so I’m not as much on social media as I used to? And yeah, I do still enjoy it. So I do pop in, you know. It, it’s still me –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – when I pop in. It’s, it’s not – Ashwini is on Facebook a lot. She keeps me updated, and then I pop in there as well. Instagram, the photos are mine. You know, it’s me –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – being a dork posting stuff. But –

[Laughter]

Nalini: But yeah, I just, just really, I’m like, I have this enormous TBR pile, and I want to read everything. I have all these authors that have been recent debuts, for example. And I really try and read a lot of debuts, because I think it’s –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – it’s really nice to be able to support, you know, debut authors and stuff. But I’m like, I’ve got to find the time! And, you know, the time that’s there is like, it can’t be on social media!

Social media, I think, is, is great for connections, especially ‘cause I’m in New Zealand, and, and I really love it for that? But I need to be more controlled about it. That’s, that’s what I’m –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Nalini: – working on, yeah. So that’s why Threads did look fun, but I was like, you know what, I could see myself just sitting here for two hours just chatting, looking at threads, and then it’s – [laughs] – you know, the time is gone. So yeah!

So yeah, website is the best. Join my newsletter, you know, get the free short stories. I think we’re…

Sarah: Get free short stories!

Nalini: Yeah, we’ve got two ebooks full of short stories you can download now if you join, so that’s free! Yeah.

Sarah: Well, that’s lovely! Thank you so much for doing this!

Nalini: No, this was so fun. Thank you for having me again, Sarah.

Sarah: Ee! Well, I mean, I have to have you back when you write the Rat shifter book and the book that’s going to surprise everybody, and –

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: – you know, when you write fanfic about Kaleb. Like, we, we got to keep talking!

Nalini: [Laughs] That’s right, forever! Yeah.

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you tremendously to Nalini Singh for connecting with me all the way from New Zealand. It’s really fun to make the planet feel small when we do an interview.

As I mentioned in the intro, we will have all of the books that we mentioned in the show notes, but I have one more! Nalini emailed me after we finished talking to say that she wanted to recommend Die for Me by Shirlene Obuobi. It’s an upcoming PNR – paranormal romance – that “I absolutely loved. It’s so good.” So at her request, I am adding one more book. More recs; I know you’re very happy.

As always, I end with a terrible joke, and this is an angel joke! Because I am nothing if not tremendously on the nose.

How do angels cook meals in Heaven?

Give up? How do angels cook meals in Heaven?

They put them in the microwave On High.

[Laughs] Microwave On High! Oh, that’s, that’s really bad! I love it. I’m actually crying right now. Oh my goodness. I hope you tell many people, and I hope you groaned really loud.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week. And in the words of my favorite retired podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening. You’re welcome for talking.

[Still laughing] Microwave On High!

[Clears throat] Serious Podcaster Voice: don’t forget, you get a special preview of Ophelia right after the end of this episode.

[end of music]

[Excerpt from Ophelia]