675. Celebrating Confident Fat Black Women with Danielle Allen

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there! Welcome to episode number 675 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and my guest today is Danielle Allen. Danielle is the author of fifty-five books, including the new release Plus Size Player, part of the Curve series, alongside Curvy Girl Summer and Big Girl Blitz. And the player, you’ll find out, in Plus Size Player is the heroine. The trilogy focuses on three best friends, and so we talk about friendship and loyalty, and especially about centering fat, Black women as romance heroines. Danielle has also written contemporaries inspired by Edgar Allen Poe stories and poems, so of course we talk about interpreting Poe as well.

We talk about a lot of books and a lot of authors, and they are all in the show notes for your browsing pleasure. You can visit the entire list of books at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 675.

I have a compliment this week, which is my all-time favorite thing each week to do. Thank you so much for being part of the Patreon and letting me compliment you one-by-one. Seriously, I love this.

To Cris H.: Scientists measuring the activity of plants and trees near you have noticed that they’re all a little taller and more colorful, and they suspect that this is because you radiate warmth and sunshine.

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Ooh! One more quick thing: inspired by other Patreon folks, including Chris DeRosa at Fixing Famous People, I’ve put together a collection of some of our exclusive bonus content free so you can sample what we’ve got. For example, do you want to do a crossword puzzle from the May 1995 issue of RT? The crossword puzzle is available for free on Patreon right now. If you’d like to read an issue of RT Magazine, the entire issue from December 1997 is now available for your perusal, and the covers are amazing. And if you’d like to try one of our bonus episodes, you can join Amanda and me as we look back at our 2024 predictions about romance and publishing. This collection of special previews is available now to all listeners; there’s a link in the show notes to dive in. And if you like our free samples, join us in the Patreon community, where there’s bonus content and much, much more.

All right, shall we get started? We’re going to talk about all fifty-five books that Danielle Allen has written. I’m just kidding, but we’re going to talk about a lot of them. On with the podcast.

[music]

Danielle Allen: Well, my name is Danielle Allen. I am an author. I am a life coach. I am an instructor at a college. I do a lot of different things, but I feel like they all converge in some way. And so I’ve written fifty-four, fifty-four books. Three nonfiction and – well, technically, I’ve published fifty-four books. The fifty-fifth will be out on June 10th, so fifty-five books total, three nonfiction and fifty-two are fiction. It’s a mix of novels and novellas, and almost all of them are contemporary romance. One is romantic fiction.

Sarah: Fifty-four books. Holy cow!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Do you, do you look at that number and just think, Wow!?

Danielle: I do, but I don’t think about it until, like, someone asks?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: And then I’m like, It has been quite, quite a few books…

Sarah: It has. Holy cow! Well, I want to speak to you –

Danielle: But…

Sarah: – about the fifty-fifth book specifically. It’s coming out next week. Congratulations –

Danielle: Thank you!

Sarah: – on Plus Size Player. Who in this title is the player?

Danielle: It is one hundred percent Nina Ford. Nina is the player. Nina is Aaliyah’s best friend. Their other best friend is Jazmyn. The three of them have completely different personalities, and Nina is the one that you would think of when you think of what a baddie is. Like, she is confident, she knows herself, she knows what she wants, she’s a businesswoman, and she truly feels like what she wants in a relationship – if she wanted to settle down – is something like what her parents have. And the likelihood of finding that, everything that she wants in one man? She feels like that’s not, that’s not realistic. So instead of being stressed out like Aaliyah, looking for that one man, she’s like, Instead of looking for The One, I’mma look for The Ones. And so she’s out here, but she’s always honest with them. She lets them know, like, Listen, you are not the only one. And she lives her life by that.

Sarah: I think that was a, a very ethical choice of her character. I, I have read the book, but when I’m doing an interview around release day, I try very hard to avoid spoilers? So I won’t go too deep into the, into the character changes. I want everyone to discover them for themselves, because my job is to enable poor impulse control and make sure everyone goes, Oh, I need to read this book right now!

Danielle: [Laughs]

Sarah: But she’s very ethical about it! ‘Cause if you think about it, you know, when you call a man a player, he’s not telling all the women that he’s seeing all these women. And she’s like, No, you’re this one, and you’re that one, and that’s how it is!

Danielle: And that’s a true player, though!

Sarah: Yeah!

Danielle: If, if you are lying and manipulating your way into multiple relationships, you’re really play-, you’re playing everybody, but you’re also playing yourself, and you really don’t have it like that, because if you told the truth and they still wanted to be with you, that’s when you’re a player.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: If you’re lying, you’re creating these false narratives, and these false, like, sense of relationship and commitment with these different women, and for what?

Sarah: You cannot, you cannot be a player if you are taking advantage of other people and lying and manipulating them.

Danielle: Exactly.

Sarah: The, the player part comes from being honest about what your expectations are, right?

Danielle: Exactly!

Sarah: Yeah.

Danielle: Or, like –

Sarah: I want to ask you about this book and also about the next one, Big Girl Blitz, but one of the things that struck me – and again, no spoilers – is that there’s an early conversation where she is on the phone with her best friend, and she says, you know, I’m having my, my needs met by all these different men, and my life is great, and I’m having a great time. I do this; I do all – anything I want to do, I do it, and I’m interested. I just go ahead and run my life the way I want. She is immensely satisfied, and it is delightful to read about.

Danielle: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: But one of the things her best friend says is, Well, you know, I’m looking for the real thing. And I find that so interesting, because I was like, But what’s, what’s not real about all of these people that she’s spending her time with? Those are just as real!

Danielle: Exactly. But Aaliyah’s idea of The One, though, though, is that’s what’s real: like, The One. That one –

Sarah: One person.

Danielle: – person that you have your Happily Ever After with. And Nina’s like, No, I’m good. And if you read Aaliyah’s journey, Aaliyah was stressed the entire time because her needs weren’t being met –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – and she was trying to figure things out, whereas Nina was like, You need to chill out and enjoy the dating process. If you’re not enjoying yourself, what is the, what is the reason? What’s the purpose? And so Nina’s idea of being satisfied, being happy, and enjoying her real life look completely different than what Aaliyah’s version of that, and I think that goes for a lot of us, where people will look at what you have going on and then determine, like, Oh, you must be, you must be sad or you must be unhappy with this, or, like, Let’s get you into some other situation, and it’s like, you, you really don’t know what, how I’m feeling about – you’re not asking; you’re projecting how you feel onto me, as opposed to hearing what I’m saying it is.

Sarah: And, and Nina does not accept other people’s projections? She’s deeply not interested in anyone projecting their nonsense onto her. She’s, she is like the Teflon of projection. It just bounces right off: I, I didn’t even hear you.

Danielle: Yes. I feel like because her parents poured into her in such a way that she is not looking for outside validation –

Sarah: Nope.

Danielle: – she’s not looking for anybody to affirm her; she’s not looking for anybody to tell her who she is. She’s like, I’m good!

Sarah: And she’s very self- –

Danielle: I’ll heal.

Sarah: Yes. And she’s very self-motivated. I, I love characters like this, and I love people like this. It remind – and the, the analogy I usually use is a Prius battery. So on the Toyota Prius, when you brake, the friction of the brake is harnessed to recharge the battery, and I love talking to people and reading about characters whose motivations are self-, self-starting. Like, I am a very self-motivated, self-fueled person, and I decide what I want, and I go do it. And I love characters like that, because it’s hard to do that when not only people in your life are projecting their feelings onto you, but there are a lot of messages handed to women, to Black women, and especially fat, Black women of –

Danielle: Absolutely.

Sarah: – what you are allowed to expect for yourself, and she’s like, Don’t care.

Danielle: Absolutely.

Sarah: I’m a self-driving machine.

Danielle: Exactly. And I think that that is – well, not even “I think” – that is one of the messages that I wanted to make sure conveyed, because we don’t have to accept what society continues to tell us what we deserve, what we should be looking for, what we should settle for.

Sarah: Yeah.

Danielle: Society continues to write these narratives of, If you’re fat, if you’re Black, if you have natural hair, how you should look, how you should wear your hair, how you should dress, how you should date and what you should settle for –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – as opposed to allowing us to just be and exist and experience and love and be loved. And so I, my hope is one, for one of the messages for people to take away is that, Let her do her!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: Let her enjoy the things she wants to enjoy, and don’t listen to what other people have to say about who you are, what you deserve, what you should be doing, what you’re capable of doing, because there’s too many things that are out there where the sole purpose is to take from you and to diminish you and to make you want less and to make, to make you think that you deserve less. Like, those things continue to be messages that repeatedly show up –

Sarah: Yes.

Danielle: – throughout life.

Sarah: Another thing that struck me while I was reading this book is that there are still so few media representations in fiction, television, movies, whatever of happy, fulfilled, content, fat, Black women. It’s like if you are a Black woman of a very specific body size, you have this, this much role. Like, one and a half inches of, of opportunities: you get this character or the other, and that’s it. There’s, you could be the best friend; could be the neighbor; you could maybe be involved in, like, food service, like you’re a cook or a chef or something cool; but, like, those are, you’re, it’s always a supporting character, never main character, and that has been true, like, as far back as I can think.

Danielle: Yeah.

Sarah: Which is staggering, so this means you have room to expand this, and I think that’s so exciting.

Danielle: I hope to be able to, like, continue to do this. When I was given the opportunity to pitch something, I knew that I wanted – because I feel like you never know, you never know what opportunities are going to come again.

Sarah: No.

Danielle: So I was like, if this is, if Curvy Girl Summer is my, is going to be the first book that comes out of the Curve series, because even with it being – ‘cause it was always pitched as a three-part series, and that each best friend got her own story – but I was like, All right, Aaliyah’s story’s going to be first, and if, if they say, Okay, we’re not going to move forward with book two and three, I knew I wanted the very first, my very first traditional romance to be about a fat, Black woman with natural hair who is confident in dating, and her concerns about dating were about her safety, about finding men who knew how to act, and not at all about, Oh, I’ve got to lose weight before I can find somebody who wants me, or for, before I can be happy, or before I am worthy of – I wanted to make sure that that was out there, because in the indie space, there are so many books –

Sarah: So many.

Danielle: – so many amazing books about, like, fat women, fat, Black women, but in the traditional space, I can’t think of any, but I’m sure there could be. Like, I just can’t think of any where it is fat, Black women with natural hair out here dating, being loved, being confident, and not having to diminish who they are, dim their light, lose weight, or do anything outside of being them in order to be loved.

Sarah: And they’re not looking for someone who’s going to accept them. Like, Oh, I need to find somebody who will accept me. Like, nononononono! You need a partner who celebrates you. That’s like the bat, the bottom line here.

Danielle: Exactly!

Sarah: Oh my gosh, did you put your head between your knees when you saw the covers for this series? ‘Cause I – we have a whole channel of covers we like, and people are like, Oh my gosh!

Danielle: Listen –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Danielle: I, so I was able to, I was fortunate enough to be able to pick the cover designer, and, like, Keo, like, when I saw her work I was like, Love it! And so then when I, the only thing I said is that I want the, all of them, to be visibly fat. I don’t, and I don’t want it to be, like, she, you can only see her face or like she’s hiding behind the guy like – she’s fat; let her be fat and fabulous. And then I told, like, which hairstyle each of them had. That’s it, and then they came back with the works of art that –

Sarah: Oh my gosh, they’re incredible.

Danielle: Each time I was like, I love it! [Laughs] I was so happy each time.

Sarah: And I love how the style is slightly abstract?

Danielle: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Like, it has this great use of color, but Curvy Girl Summer, the center of the image, like, it’s her dress and her body. It’s, like, the brightest thing on the page, and then with Plus Size Player, the brightest thing on the page is her face.

Danielle: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And then the, the line of him looking to her and her looking at him, down to her armbands, like, there’s this beautiful linear ability to just sort of make your way through the image. They are exquisite! You must have been so happy!

Danielle: I was beyond, beyond. I was not prepared.

[Laughter]

Danielle: ‘Cause I knew it was going to be good, ‘cause I had seen her work, and that was why I wanted her, but when I saw it, I was like, Yes. Immediately yes. And then when I saw – that was with Curvy Girl Summer – then I saw Plus Size Player and I was like – [gasps] – Yes! And then I saw Jazz’s book; I saw Big Girl Blitz, and I was like, Y’all, this is what I’m talking about. This – [laughs] – is everything.

Sarah: It is incredible. And not a lot of authors love their covers, so I am, like, doubly excited for you that you get this experience of having an artist represent what’s – is it weird to have what, an artist represent what’s been just chilling in your head this long?

Danielle: Everything came together –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – in a way that just felt very much like it was part of God’s plan, because I didn’t want to have a really strict idea of what I wanted on the cover –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – because if it didn’t get done then I would be hyperfixated on – [sighs] – That’s not what I wanted, and – but, like, it was like, okay, I knew I wanted her body, all of their body sizes to, like, be represented, and the type of hair style. Like, I sent a picture of what I wanted the hair to look like, and each time, like, it was just like, this is what I meant. Even if I didn’t say that’s what I meant, that’s what I meant, and it was just, I feel very thankful that Bramble gave me the opportunity to pick the cover, to pick Keo, because I feel like she did an amazing job.

Sarah: The fact that all of these characters, they both demand respect for themselves, but they also demonstrate respect for themselves. Like, their expectations of their partners are just as high as their expectations for themselves. Like, they demonstrate and demand respect, which I, I love. And they’re happy! Which is really revolutionary in a world that is both very racist and has a lot of anti-fat bias. That is a lot.

Danielle: Yes.

Sarah: What has the response been to your characters? And, and was writing characters like Nina and Aaliyah and Jazmyn a positive experience for you? Did that affect you as well?

Danielle: It was an amazing experience to write, because that was – I feel like, when I think about the experience, the experiences that I’ve had and that my, like, some of my closest friends have had, we are happy and confident and moving through the world in this way. I feel like a lot of media portrays if you’re fat and Black, because it’s like, oh, it’s, you’re fat, and then you’re Black too, and you have natural hair? Like, okay, you – let’s, let’s wrap it up. You need to –

Sarah: [Laughs] That’s way too deviant for us!

Danielle: Right, like, I –

Sarah: It’s too much!

[Laughter]

Danielle: Way too much happening! And so, like, the media will put it out there like these are all, like, the worst things that you could be, and so you should settle. You don’t deserve anything more. But that’s not how we’re really living, and I think that that is part of what I really wanted to, like, have come across is that, like, there’s never been a time where, like, none of us were able to attract a man or a woman. Like, there’s no, there’s never been a time where any of us have not been able to be in loving, happy relationships where we are being doted on and treated the way we deserve to be treated. But when you’re looking at movies, when you’re looking at TV, when you’re looking at these other means of entertainment, people who look like me are relegated to the sassy best friend.

Sarah: Always!

Danielle: Okay –

Sarah: Why?! [Laughs]

Danielle: It is – [laughs] – right! Like, that’s, that’s what, just the sassy…the funny fat friend, the – if they’re in partnership, they’re married and, like, completely given an asexual kind of vibe.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: But never really seen someone be fat, Black, natural hair, confident, and the star –

Sarah: Yes!

Danielle: – because the minute, like, what I think of that – what I also pitched it as – as if Kelli from Insecure was the main character, as opposed to – because Kelli, I loved her character, but we got to see Issa’s arc, but Issa was the main character, so. We got to see Molly’s romantic arc. We got to see Tiffany’s romantic arc – and this is in Insecure – but Kelli, she would pop in and out. She always had a man or somebody interested in her, but we never really got to see her, like, romantic arc. It was just like, you know, at the end when they were, like, resolving each person’s situation, it’s like, Oh, this is the man that I’m with now, and that was it. We didn’t get to see what we saw with all of the other characters –

Sarah: No.

Danielle: – who happened to be slim. And so what I wanted to just show is just that when we’re out here dating, we deserve to have standards too. We don’t have to settle for, just because someone likes you doesn’t mean you’ve got to like them back.

Sarah: Nope.

Danielle: Doesn’t mean that’s who you have to entertain; doesn’t, doesn’t mean any of that.

Sarah: And it doesn’t mean that will be the only one person, either.

Danielle: Okay!

Sarah: No. [Laughs]

Danielle: No. I feel like that’s how – but if you only, if you don’t already have that in you, and you don’t have people around you who are living their lives like that, and your only reference is what’s being depicted in traditional media, then you start to think that that’s all you can get, that’s all you can do, that’s all you deserve, and you start settling in your life because you feel, because that’s what, that’s all you know.

Sarah: That’s what you’ve been told!

Danielle: Exactly. You don’t know anything more; you don’t know anything better. So I love the, I love when people have reached out to say that it’s built their confidence, that it made them realize that they didn’t have to settle, and I’m talking about – and that they’re not alone in their dating –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – in their dating woes. And there’s been people who are short, tall, fat, slim, a multitude of races. Like, it’s been men and women; it’s been a, a bunch of people who have said that in reading, they related to Curvy Girl Summer in a specific way and that they either – ‘cause some of them had not read, they’ve preordered Plus Size Player, but they haven’t read it yet. Some people who have had ARCs are like, Aaliyah is, gave me confidence, but Nina, who, is who I’m aiming to be. Like, Nina is – because I feel like Nina do, she, all three of them are confident, but Nina moves through the world in a different way than –

Sarah: Totally different –

Danielle: – other people.

Sarah: – way, yes.

Danielle: And so she’s just like, Not only am I – like, Aaliyah knows what she wants, and she knows what she deserves, and she knows that she is a beautiful woman, and she wants what she wants. Nina owns the world. Like –

Sarah: Pretty much.

Danielle: – The world is mine.

Sarah: Yes.

Danielle: It’s my oyster, and I, I can do what I want. I can move how I want. Anything I want, I can have. And so I love that for her.

Sarah: She’s like, If there’s something I want to do, if there’s something I want to learn, if there’s an experience I want to have, I’m going to go get that, and one of the things that I think makes the opening scenes, where she’s on this incredible, incredible date with the fun guy is that he surpasses what she does for herself.

Danielle: Yes.

Sarah: Like, she has already made a life for herself that is replete with cool stuff. Like, if there’s a thing she wants to do, she’s going to go do it, and this person is able to, like, elevate beyond what she expected, and she’s constantly surprised by this. And that’s, like, really shocking, ‘cause her life is very surprising.

Danielle: Exactly! And I think that that is what it should be; that you should want to be partnered with someone who elevates you.

Sarah: Yeah.

Danielle: And sometimes people hear that and they think it’s financial? And while it, it could be, that’s not all it is. Like, if they are elevating how you look at the world –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – how you, how you learn, how you embrace joy, how you clean, like, if they are elevating your life and the way you look at the world and the way you move through the world, that is a person that you would want to have in your life, that you would want to be connected to, and it just so happened he had all those other qualities that she was like, Huh! [Laughs]

Sarah: You have written some Edgar Allan Poe-inspired romances, like The Cask and Annabelle and Lee. Please tell, I just, please tell me everything. What led you into this project? I think it is amazing.

Danielle: Thank you! So right now there’s four in total. They’re all standalone. So it’s Nevermore, Tell-Tale, Annabelle and Lee, and The Cask, and they’re all based off of either a poem or a short story by Edgar Allan Poe. It started because I felt like it was interesting to me how Poe was somebody that, I know for me and for everybody I know who went to public school, in the sixth grade, like, that was the first, “The Raven” was like the first, like, grown-up, like, poem that we got to work with.

Sarah: Yeah.

Danielle: And even though Poe didn’t really describe the characters –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – every video, photo, interpretation of that work has always been white. I was like, we are all forced to, to read this. We’re all forced to, like, whatever the assignment was related to it, so why, why is it looking the way it’s looking? So I was like, I think it would be interesting, I – so, aside: I also feel like a lot of his work is always represented as horror and very, very dark, and while it is dark, some of it’s, like, there’s some that’s rooted in love, and, like, it seems dark because of how it’s framed? It has a creepy vibe to it –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – but when you really break down what it is, there is so much love in that. Like, when you think about “The Raven” and you think about how the raven’s there – and this is his poem “The Raven,” and not my interpretation of it, but, like, the, when you think about the raven coming and just saying Nevermore and, like, that’s all he’s hearing the, the bird say –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – and he’s like, you know, like, Am I not going to see the love of my life again? And then all the bird is saying is Nevermore, but each time the bird’s saying it, he’s interpreting it differently, and, like, when you think about the despair of losing the love of your life, and you’re like, I’m never going to see this person again? And then it’s like, Nevermore, and then it’s like, I’m, like, I’m angry. I’m like, What do you mean, I’m never going to see – and then it’s like, Nevermore, and then it’s like, I’m never going to see – so it’s like he’s going through these emotions, and the reason it’s creepy is because why is this bird talking? Where did the bird come from? What’s happening? But when you take a step back and really look at it, it’s like he is hallucinating because he is in such deep despair…

Sarah: Yep. That the birds have started talking to him.

Danielle: Okay! And so –

Sarah: Yeah!

Danielle: – that, I just thought that was such an interesting, like, interpretation that, like, I hadn’t seen?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: So I was like, Ooh! What if I made it a romance? And then, Ooh! What if I made it a Black romance? And so that’s how I did Nevermore, which is based off of “The Raven.”

Tell-Tale is not creepy. It is an – without spoiling anything – it is, when you read it, you will see and feel Poe’s essence?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: But it’s a completely different story, and so I am very proud of how I flipped and interpreted that work.

And then with The Cask, that’s the only one – the other three are, like, friends-to-lovers or strangers-to-lovers. The Cask is very much enemies-to-lovers, but they are all inspired by Poe’s work.

And I’m from Richmond, or Richmond, Virginia, and Poe lived in Richmond, so there’s a Poe museum downtown, and so when I first was like, Oh, I want to do this, I went and did another tour.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: And I was like, yeah, I definitely want to spin this, because I don’t, I don’t think it’s ever been done like this.

Sarah: Definitely not. So cool.

Danielle: Yaaay! Thank you!

Sarah: Now, I reached out to author DL White on Bluesky because –

Danielle: I love her.

Sarah: She is a long-time listener of this show, so she will probably hear this episode and be very excited. Hi, DL! And she and I were reading Plus Size Player at the same time, and we start, like, ex-, exchanging messages like, Oh my gosh, the hero! She says –

Danielle: I love it!

Sarah: – first, she says to tell you she loves you to pieces, and your pen is fire.

Danielle: Oh!

Sarah: And she also says, Sarah, you need to ask about the journey from indie to traditional publishing, because it is a very inspirational story. Can you share a little bit about that experience?

Danielle: Of course! Okay, well, first and foremost, I love DL White; she’s so talented and I just adore her. So, like, I started writing in 2013. I published my first book in 2013. And I, I write what I was put on my heart to write, and that’s it, that’s all. So there’s no, like, following trends or figuring out what would be, like, the best marketed thing? I just write what I feel like I’m called to write. So I, whenever I’m writing I see everything playing in my head like a movie? And I was like, I would love to see my work on the big screen one day. So I was like, well, most, most books that seem to be made into movies are usually trad.

Sarah: Yep.

Danielle: So I need to figure out how to get something traditionally published so I can then get it made into a movie.

Sarah: Hopefully move into Option World, which is –

Danielle: Right!

Sarah: – nice.

Danielle: [Laughs] That’s what I hear. So I’m still, I’m still shooting my shot. So then I was like, all right, in order to get something traditionally published, I need an agent. And so I was like, oh, and, and I need to figure out how to pitch; I need to do all that. Then…

Sarah: It’s a lot.

Danielle: – overwhelmed, and so I was like, you know what? I need to figure out an agent. And so I put it on my vision board. It was like the end of 2021. It was in December. I put it on my vision board, I talked to God about it, and then I talked to one of my best friends, because he did his vision board too. We discussed that, and then that was it. I didn’t look up an agent; I didn’t do, I didn’t do anything to get the agent. I just put it on my vision board. So two weeks later I had a meeting scheduled with Ashley Antoinette, and in that conversation, she had asked if I was looking for representation, and I was like, Yes! And so that’s how she became my agent. Never did a query; never did a – it was just me consistently doing – now, her editor/assistant/friend had read my Poe-inspired stuff, and so I do know that she hyped me up and was like, Have you ever read Danielle Allen? And so that, I found that out, like, in the conversation, and so I was like, Ah! Love her! Thank you! And so that’s how I got my agent.

And then she was like, Okay, you need to come up with an original story that you would want, you would want to pitch. So I came up with the Curve series, and said, like, This is what, like, these are these three stories, and Aaliyah’s more like, it’s more rom-com-y, and it’s a slow burn. Nina’s is a faster burn, and it is –

Sarah: Like chapter one burn!

Danielle: [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah! Got right to it!

[Laughter]

Danielle: And then, and then Jazz is, hers is going to be a more emotional story. So. And she was like, Okay! So then I wrote the first few chapters, and then we sent it in, and fortunately Bramble wanted it, and they, what I feel so fortunate about is that they never, it was never a time I felt like I had to make, dim my light –

Sarah: Yep.

Danielle: – and make my characters less me. I feel like if you like Cur-, the Curve series, if you like Curvy Girl Summer and Plus Size Player, then you would like all of my indie stuff, because it is completely me. They didn’t make me do anything different. Like, I, like, went through editing and everything, but, like, they didn’t make me change my voice –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – or dim my light. And I feel so blessed to be in that situation, because I know there could have been pushback –

Sarah: Oh yes!

Danielle: …very clear in the, in, when I pitched it, these, all three of them are fat, all three of them are Black, they have natural hair, and they are dating confidently. Nobody is like, Ah, when I lose weight I’ll get the man, or I don’t want to do this; I’m too ashamed of my body or shy about getting naked in front of this man. Like, he want me! He know what I look like!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: So, and so it’s like, I feel really blessed that I’ve landed in that situation and to feel seen so that I can share a story in which other people can be seen.

Sarah: Which I think is the fundamental element of, of romance as a genre. I’ve, I get, I get asked a lot of, like, What is romance? Well, it’s, effectively, it’s a story of courtship. It’s a –

Danielle: Yes.

Sarah: – courtship narrative. And there’s a structure of expectations that you perform within, same with any other form of genre fiction. But the fundamental message of romance is one of being worthy. Like, you do not have to wait to be worthy; you are worthy of being loved right now as you are!

Danielle: That can, absolutely.

Sarah: And creating scenarios where more people see themselves in the romances that they are reading and don’t have to mentally translate across culture, across race or anything, they can see themselves portrayed, that is incredibly affirming. Like, that is the best change that romance has made since I started writing about it. There, there are more opportunities for different people to see themselves being worthy of love with no waiting.

Danielle: Absolutely. Oh, I was going to take that to everything. Like, to feel seen, to be seen in a genre that, especially historically, has not seen you, represented you, or even, like, kept you in the peripheral – like, you were, if you were even in the background, it was not being loved or being treated well, and so it was like almost a cautionary tale like, What you don’t want to be –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – is fat.

Sarah: Yep.

Danielle: And so, to be able to put that in the forefront is a beautiful thing.

Sarah: And to further emphasize that being fat is not a state of wrongness. That’s, that’s going to take a little longer to undo in the current society.

Danielle: Yes.

Sarah: But every little message helps, especially when it’s so lovingly defiant, as your characters are.

Danielle: Thank you, yes. I, that’s – [sighs] – that’s the dream.

Sarah: That’s what you wanted!

Danielle: Yes. Absolutely.

Sarah: I want to ask you about being a life coach. And I read that one of your goals – obviously with your novels – is to help people better understand themselves so they can be the best versions of themselves, which is certainly present in your writing. I know personally reading romance has taught me a lot about myself over the years, and especially as I’ve aged. Being able to become a more fluent person with my own emotions and other people’s emotions has only helped me, and romance is definitely a part of that. How do you think you marry self-awareness and romance fiction?

Danielle: So I like to treat each character as their own individual person, and my hope is that if you’re – it’s easier to see issues or things that could be corrected in other people before you see them in yourself.

Sarah: Mm-hmm! [Laughs]

Danielle: So you’re looking at a character handling a situation a certain way. Hopefully it’ll, it’ll challenge you to figure out, How would I have handled that situation? There’s so many people who, like, because not as many people have read Plus Size Player, but there’re people who are like, Oh, with Aaliyah, I feel like she didn’t ask enough questions; she didn’t do X, Y, and Z. And it’s like, what – okay. What questions would you have asked? If this person made this clear and definitive statement about their relationship status in front of you – even if they weren’t talking to you, they said it in front of you; they knew that you were listening; and then they also were wearing things that would make you believe that, that married the idea in your head – what questions would you ask? Why would, why would you feel the need to ask those questions? And so – but it’s, it’s always interesting to hear those thoughts, because it’s like, would you? ‘Cause some people it’s, again, it’s easier to see it when it’s someone else going through it, but –

Sarah: Always.

Danielle: Okay! But seeing how Aaliyah navigated these different relationships, I wanted people to understand that it’s not you! It doesn’t matter what your body size is; it doesn’t matter your, your height, your weight, your race. If someone is determined to lie to you about their relationship status and say they’re single when they’re married, or to say they don’t have kids when they do, or to just be only in it for sex, even though they’re telling you they want to be in a relationship, these things are not happening to you because of something you did.

Sarah: No.

Danielle: And because these things happen, sometimes people internalize it? And then they start feeling like, What am I doing to attract this type of person?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: Whole time, that type of person was just going to do that anyway! It has nothing to do with anything that you’re doing. Now, if you asked all the questions, you can ask all the questions, and they still be lying to you; they still be trying to manipulate you. Unfortunately, that’s just who they are. So what I want people to get from the things that I write, like, I’ll have the characters operating in whichever way they operate, and as an individual, you’ll have your own reaction to that, but there’s always a message in every story, and the message is different depending upon the story.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: And so I hope that people pick up that message and it helps them be a better version of themselves, whether it is moving through the world confidently like Nina does, or it is putting yourself out there with safety conditions, because –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – I feel like Aaliyah put herself out there in a new way. She wanted a new result, so she did something new, but she didn’t go wild and crazy with it. She was like, Okay, here are my fears, and then Ahmad was like, Well, I’m here every Friday, so if you want to come in, like, I’ve got your back. So she put in those things that would make her feel safe, but she still stepped outside of her comfort zone. So hoping that people are able to pick up on some of these things that are, like, put into the story?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: So that they can move – ‘cause we only have one life to live.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: So if you’re spending your life not living your best life or not working towards living your best life? Then we are wasting time.

Sarah: We judge other women harshly because we feel the judgment that we are, are experiencing. Like, none of this is not real – it’s real – but romance readers are very hard on heroines.

Danielle: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I think, when I was writing my first book, so this was like 2008, 2009, Lisa Kleypas was like, It’s trying like to write the perfect Goldilocks: not too hard, not too soft, not too big, not too small. You have to be this perfect tiny little representation of a character for a heroine to be unilaterally accepted. There’s always going to be a review like I hated the heroine. Like, okay! That’s a very normal thing. And being able to see flawed, messy women having great sex and falling in love is, like, one of my favorite parts of romance! We are all flawed and messy!

Danielle: Nobody’s perfect. I think what has always been true about my characters is that, like, they are always going to be the main character. They’re always going to be centered, because I feel like, like you said, outside of the maybe character or the, the magical character that comes in, that comes in, saves the day –

Sarah: Yeah.

Danielle: – those don’t exist in, in my stories because I feel like at the end of the day, like, they are the main character. It’s first person; you’re in their head; they are the main character. Just like we are all the main character in our own lives. But also, it just makes me feel like it’s so important to have characters be real. And in order to be real, they can’t be perfect. People prematurely judge women in general, heroines in particular, for the same behavior that they root for and forgive the, the male main characters for.

Sarah: Oh, all the time.

Danielle: All the time. He could be terrible and then a well-timed apology and it’s like, well, we love him again. But with the heroine it’s something different, because, as women, unfortunately, society has told us that we have to smile and be nice and, like, have to conform in a certain way, to perform in a certain way. My hope is that people are less judgmental about other people in general –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Danielle: – and if we can start with characters, then hopefully we can move to real-life people.

Sarah: Yes, please, thank you; all of that.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Now, I want to ask you what books you’re reading right now, but I have also been told that there are many other indie authors that you love to talk about, so I would love to hear any book recommendations or writers that you think everyone should know about.

Danielle: So I can’t read while I’m writing at the same time?

Sarah: I can’t either; I get it. Oh no, I can’t even listen to lyrics. No words. Only the voice in my head, which sounds weird unless you’re talking to a writer. Only the voice in my head gets to talk. No lyrics, nobody talking to me, no TV. Mm-mm-mm-mm.

Danielle: I can do TV, but it can only be – usually it’s Frasier, because I’ve seen it so many times that it’s just background noise?

Sarah: Yeah.

Danielle: But it’s not too quiet. But sometimes it’s just silence. If it’s mu-, I can do music if I’m doing a particular scene and I’m playing the same song over and over again. So –

Sarah: I’ve done that.

Danielle: So I have a bunch of books that I’ve bought, but to support and, like, oh, one day I’ll be in a position to be able to read, but –

Sarah: Some day!

Danielle: [Laughs] But I haven’t read anything in a minute. But I will say get DL White’s books, get Brittainy Cherry’s books, Bailey West, Té Russ, Christina C. Jones, Alexandria House, Nicole Falls, Alex Warren, Iesha Bree. Like, there’s so many, like, I could just name a bunch of people, but I feel like the last book that I purchased was Kennedy Ryan’s Can’t Get Enough.

My goal is – because I’ve already submitted Jazz’s book, but then, because this is my first trad situation, so this is the first time I don’t own my characters, I have an epilogue I want to write, and they didn’t tell me no.

Sarah: Well.

Danielle: Yes. But they didn’t say no. So I’ve been working on that, because I, I had a – mm – an image pull up in my mind, and I was like –

Sarah: Yep! That’s how it starts.

Danielle: Right! And it –

Sarah: It’s all downhill from there.

Danielle: Exactly! And so I don’t know if I would even be able to, if, like, the thought came to me later, I don’t know if I would be able to, like, write a little novella to, like, touch on this, this thought, so I was just like, If I could just add it to the end of the existing book, please. And so, again, they haven’t said no.

Sarah: As I recently learned from Zach Stafford on the Vibe Check podcast, if you don’t A-S-K, you don’t G-E-T!

Danielle: Okay!

Sarah: Right?

Danielle: Okay!

Sarah: Changed my life. I stopped in the middle of the sidewalk, and I was like, Ohhh! I’m going to remember that!

Danielle: Yes! And it’s so true!

Sarah: So true.

Danielle: ‘Cause closed mouths don’t get fed.

Sarah: That is correct!

Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Danielle: I can be found, so, authordanielleallen.com.

Sarah: Got that!

Danielle: I have a Patreon, and that is The Art of Being Danielle on Patreon [patreon.com/TheArtofBeingDanielle]. There is the, like, social media. So TikTok is @authordanielleallen, Instagram is @authordanielleallen, Facebook Danielle Allen Author, Bluesky I believe is danielle.allen [@danielleallen.bsky.social].

Sarah: I will link to all of them, never fear.

Danielle: Okay, perfect! Those are the places that I can be found mostly, so definitely, definitely follow me, come see me, hang out with me.

I do interviews, and, and they’re not serious interviews. They are Curvy Girl Confessions on Patreon. So I ask authors ridiculous random questions about dating and romance and sex, and, and then they throw in stuff about their books too.

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you so much to Danielle for connecting with me. As I mentioned in the intro, I will have links to all of the books that we talked about, including books from all of the authors she recommended in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com.

I end every episode with a terrible joke, and this week is no exception, of course. This joke is from JFHobbit.

What do mermaids use to wash their fins?

Give up? What do mermaids use to wash their fins?

Tide.

[Laughs] Either you guessed that, or I said Tide and you groaned at me. Either way, that is a win.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week! And in the words of my favorite retired podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening; you’re welcome for talking.

[end of music]