554. All Things Bramble and Romance with Monique Patterson

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 554 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and today my guest is Monique Patterson. Back in February, Tor announced they have a new romance imprint called Bramble, and Monique Patterson sat down with me on her first day as VP and Executive Editor of Bramble to tell us all about it. We also discuss how romance has changed and evolved over her career as an editor and about being a nerd in many areas, including sword collecting and baking.

I want to thank Sarah Reidy, who is the VP and Executive Director of Publicity at Tor for helping set up this interview, and I really want to thank Monique for sitting down with me on her first day on the job.

Hello and thank you especially to our Patreon community. Thank you so much for your support. It keeps me going; it makes sure that every episode has a transcript – howdy, garlicknitter! [Howdy! – gk] If you would like to join our Patreon community, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges start at one dollar. You can pay for a year up front, and every pledge is deeply appreciated.

I also want to say hello and welcome to Tracy, who is one of our newest members.

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Are you ready to learn more about Bramble? Let’s do this thing: on with the podcast with me and Monique Patterson.

[music]

Monique Patterson: First of all, I’m really happy to be here and talking to you. I love Smart Bitches – [laughs] – have for years. Big fan, big fan. And my name is Monique Patterson, and I am the VP, Editorial Director of Bramble at the Tor Publishing Group, and I oversee all aspects of Bramble itself as well as acquire titles for it, along with other editors here at Tor.

Sarah: And today is your first day as the VP and Editorial Director of Bramble, right?

Monique: Yes, it is.

Sarah: Okay, so how many cups of coffee have gone into today?

Monique: I’m actually doing really well? I actually left the house with my coffee mug sitting on the, the counter?

Sarah: Oops!

Monique: [Laughs] But I did have a Red Bull and it’s still keeping me going.

Sarah: That’ll go. I mean, I’ve driven away with my coffee on top of my car, so just leaving it on the counter is probably a, a, a win overall.

Monique: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: So I am very excited about Bramble. I did an episode with Amanda, who is my co-pilot at Smart Bitches, and one of the things we talked about when we were trying to predict the trends of publishing, which, as you know, is a terrible idea to do with any kind of, you know, recording going on, we, we were both talking about how we think there’s going to be more fantasy romance and more romance with fantasy and science fiction elements, because that’s an area that we’re seeing getting filled in, and I always get requests for it from readers: I’m looking for my science fiction romance. We have a bunch of questions about Bramble because we’re so excited about it! I know that they’re, the press release has a lot of words in it, and I have some questions about the words –

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: – but will Bramble focus on fantasy and science fiction because, you know, it’s part of Tor, and if I think of Tor I think of those genres, or is it going to be a wider acquisition?

Monique: It, that is an excellent question and something I love talking about. It is going to be a, a wider, you know, swath of, you know, kind of different subgenres. So, for instance, of course, yes, we’re going to do fantasy and science fiction romance because I think we’re particularly suited for it, but – of course – but we’re going to be doing, you know, contemporary as well. We’ll be doing, in a select way, like, some historicals. So there really isn’t a thing that we won’t actually, you know, do, in terms of, like, subgenre. So it’s, it’s going to be all, it’s going to run that whole gamut, so, you know, when we say there’ll be something for everybody, I like to think that we’re going to definitely come really close to fulfilling that for people.

Sarah: Right. And I noticed that the launch titles are fantasy and science fiction titles, and I’m assuming that was a deliberate choice, given the strength of the brand that you’re working with with Tor.

Monique: Yes. So, yes, we thought about, very carefully, like, when we wanted to launch, what we wanted to launch with, but then you’ll see, as we’re going into 2024, you’re going to see more of what I’m talking about.

Sarah: Can you, can you share news? Do you have titles? Can you tell us things?

Monique: I do, but not yet.

Sarah: Oooh! Okay!

Monique: [Laughs]

Sarah: But we, we get to find out at some point, right?

Monique: Oh yeah.

Sarah: Okay.

Monique: Absolutely.

Sarah: Okay, good. ‘Cause, I mean, like I said, we’re all very excited about this. Now, one of the major questions that we have from the press release, and a lot of the people in my podcast Patreon were asking as well, there are two things that we want to clarify, we’re very curious about. One was, in the press release it says, “Whether the last page holds happily ever after, to be continued, or an ending that isn’t so simple…” and, and I’m sure you know that when you, when you come up against the HEA with romance readers, the reaction can be immediate and loud, and a lot of confusion has, has generated from this press release. Will the presence or absence of an HEA be communicated to readers?

Monique: You know, it, it isn’t like a, a conversation we’ve had, you know, very directly yet.

Sarah: Right.

Monique: I, I come out of, from, like, I was birthed in romance as a…

Sarah: [Laughs] Funny enough, me too! Yes!

Monique: Like, if you want to talk about…

Sarah: So you know this community then!

Monique: Yes! I mean, I was at Avon Books when I first got into publishing. You know, the first book I read was, you know, Johanna Lindsey’s, her very first Malory Christmas novel, you know, so I, I –

Sarah: Ooh!

Monique: – I’ve been steeped in romance. So my expectation when I pick up something that you tell me is a romance is to have Happily Ever After, and if that doesn’t happen I am upset.

Sarah: Yes!

Monique: So yes; I’m going to say yes. How we’ll address it, you know, etc., not completely sure, but it’ll be addressed, because I just, I think you have to?

Sarah: Yeah!

Monique: Because I personally just want to know –

Sarah: Right?

Monique: – it’s, that’s happening? [Laughs]

Sarah: That was my first thought. Like –

Monique: Right, I just want to know that when I get to the end, if I’m reading a romance, they’re walking off happily with each other.

Sarah: Yeah! Well, my first thought was, Monique’s not going to let us down! There’s no way!

Monique: [Laughs] Oh no, not with that.

Sarah: No! I’m also curious about the heat level elements of the, of the press release. I love how I’m doing this whole podcast like I read the press release so closely, so many times, and I don’t usually do that with new imprints. Like, I’m very, very excited about Bramble.

The heat level is, is also going to have a wide variety, which I think reflects the trend in romance? And there are people who want as much sexing as is humanly possible, possibly extra-human? Like, lots more sex?

Monique: Right.

Sarah: And then there’s people who are like, I would prefer none; thank you.

Monique: Yeah. Yes.

Sarah: And I know that you’ve, you’ve said in the, in the press release that you’re going to have a wider variety of heat levels. Is that something you’ve put some thought into, how to signal the heat level?

Monique: I mean, I think it’s, it’s in the same way that we’ve always done it. You know, so like when I was at Avon and then when I was at St. Martin’s, we never put, like, you know, any kind of, you know, like, how many chili peppers? I love using the peppers as a signal of the heat level –

Sarah: I –

Monique: – like one through five? I’m using that! [Laughs]

Sarah: I, I think it’s extremely clear. Like, if you tell me something is –

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: – five peppers, I’m going to be like, I understand what I’m going into here.

Monique: Yes. And so, well, we’ve done that. We never, like, put it on the book and said, This is three; this is four; this is – what we have done is usually signaled it through the packaging. You know, so –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – what kind of cover and what we’re saying in the copy. So, like, you knew, you know, like the difference between when I was publishing, say, Francis Ray, you know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – back in the day, and Laura Lee. Like, you, you picked up those two books and you’re like, One of these – I mean, the Francis Ray may be like, you know, off the chain hot, you know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Monique: – but this is, Laura Lee definitely is, because, you know, the, everything about this packaging says that. And I think, you know, that’s what we definitely want to continue to do is – you know, and I think romance readers have become, you know, they have always been very savvy about picking that out, and I think, you know, we really want to target the audience –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – you know, so I don’t want, say, someone who’s, who reads something that’s very, very clean – I’m not going to package it that way, you know –

Sarah: Right.

Monique: – if it’s not, you know, if it’s a really –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – like, Oh, they’re swinging from the chandeliers! [Laughs] I’m not going to – I’m going to signal that in the packaging, and so that’s what we’re definitely going to do.

Sarah: And it sounds like you’ve thought a lot about the language of the packaging, that it’s not just the cover copy; it’s, it’s also the image on the cover. And that’s actually kind of a challenge, I think, and one of the reasons I’m really glad I don’t work in, in publishing and making these decisions, because it’s very hard to signal heat level with a cartoon cover. With the illustrated cover, it can be very hard to signal heat level.

Monique: Yeah, it can. And I think, you know, we have other things that we’ll be playing with, you know, like when you’re talking about the – I think that can be the challenge of like, say, when you’re doing rom-coms –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – because in general rom-coms have a certain kind of look so that you can definitely signal to a rom-com reader, This book is for you.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Monique: So it can be hard to say, Super hot and sexy, but you can say it in the copy. You know –

Sarah: Yes.

Monique: – you can say, This super hot – you can, you can basically just say it outright, you know, and I have, you know, at times. Like –

Sarah: They will go to Bone Town.

Monique: [Laughs] I’m going to use that.

Sarah: Okay, so what I want is like a little road sign like New York, Sidney, Bone Town. That’s what I want. If I see that I’ll be very excited.

Monique: [Laughs more] So, so yeah, you know, that, that, that can be like, you just, like you have to choose, like, where you can, like, play it up, but there’s, there’s room to do that, and it’s our job to try and do that to the best of our ability.

Sarah: And it sounds like you have a very solid grasp of who the audience for Bramble is, too!

Monique: Yeah. You know, and that’s, you know, something that is going to continue to evolve as we – you know, which is what I want it to do, like as things are coming in and we’re falling in love with the projects, you know, seeing who we could reach, you know. My whole goal is really to try and do the best job as possible by the author and the book, and, you know, the idea of, you know, trying some new things, it’s, I mean it’s, it’s not going to be like, I don’t want to oversell and say that Oh, we’re going to just do all radical new things that no one’s ever seen before! I think you have to be extremely thoughtful if you want to be successful about what you’re trying to do, you know, on all levels. Who are you trying to speak to? Who are you trying to reach? Are you saying it in the right way with all the things, the book itself, the copy, the packaging?

Sarah: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I’m really excited by this, by the, by the imprint, I think in part because it’s coming from an imprint that already has such a solid base in fantasy and science fiction, but also in publishing books of different lengths. Like the, the Murderbot novellas came out of, of Tor, and –

Monique: Right.

Sarah: – one of, one of my podcast Patreon supporters Kate was wondering, are you also going to be doing shorter works with Bramble? Are you going to publish novellas as well?

Monique: So yes, definitely, in terms of – so let me, let me answer this: like, there’s, there’s my wish that I actually even haven’t talked to Devi about, but I want to do – [laughs] – at some point? Which is –

Sarah: We will just speak it into being. We will just, we will just manifest it through this conversation.

Monique: …well, I said it on Smart Bitches, so we have to do it. [Laughs]

Sarah: Sorry! There, there was, there was a whole recording and everything.

[Laughter]

Monique: I love anthologies and I’ve always loved doing them, and I definitely want to do some going forward. I mean, the appetite for them has shifted a bit, so you have to, I have to be like, you know, careful in terms, careful in terms of, like, making sure that it’s going to be what the audience actually wants –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – you know? So, so I definitely want, will do that. And in terms of, like, shorter works, I’ve already started having dreams of, like, what I might want to do in that space. I mean, they’re just dreams right now that I haven’t even spoken – [laughs] – spoken out loud? But I could see, I could see us doing that. I definitely could see us doing that. Like, I personally would love to do that, you know, at some point. I don’t know if it’s going to happen year one of Bramble, but you never know! You never know!

Sarah: Yep. What was the process of developing Bramble like? Was this your idea? Was this an idea that was floated in a large meeting over a very large conference table? Like, what led to Bramble being Bramble?

Monique: So this was, you know, Devi has always been a huge fan of romance.

Sarah: Right.

Monique: And we’ve known each other for years. Like, we, we were, you know, as she puts it, we were babies in the business together, so we both were, she was at Morrow and I was at Avon, and this was even before it was acquired by HarperCollins, like when it was owned by the Hearst Corporation; like, nobody remembers that, but –

Sarah: Long time ago.

Monique: [Laughs] Long time ago!

Sarah: I think that predates me, and I’ve been doing this for seventeen years now. I think that predates me.

Monique: It does.

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: [Laughs] So we’ve known each other for that long, and she’s always been a fan of, of romance. So we’ve, we’ve, we talk romance and we’ve remained friends over the years, and so, you know, when, you know, she came to me to say, Well, this is, this is what I want to do, you know, and if I wanted to be a part of it. The way she was talking about it, I knew that this was part of, this was her brain child, and she had been thinking about it for, you know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Monique: – quite some time, and that it was a definite part of the future growth of, of Tor, you know, of the Tor Publishing Group. So in terms of, like, you know, all the meetings that may have happened, I wasn’t, you know, privy to those. All I knew was that this was something that Devi had a vision, you know, for wanting to, you know, expand in this place and to work with someone who also loved it, you know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – as much as she did, or more, you know. So here we are! [Laughs]

Sarah: And, and she obviously knows your fluency in the genre –

Monique: Yes. Yes.

Sarah: – professionally. It’s not like you’re just, you, you’ve never experienced all of the things that have happened in romance over the past, you know, two and a half decades.

Monique: Yes.

Sarah: I think for me, one of the things that is so exciting is that so much of the news right now in media and in publishing and in other, other publications is contraction, and like –

Monique: Yes.

Sarah: – we’re not doing this anymore, and we’re closing this down, and this website is ending, and these, these people have gotten laid off, and it’s just, really just depressing?

Monique: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And so to hear like, Here’s a new imprint? Like, I’m so happy! Has the response been similar to, like, oh yay, a new thing? Has the response been as positive and engaging?

Monique: It has been insanely good. Like, I – and I say insanely good because I’m so excited about it, and then, you know how, like, you’re super excited about it and, about something –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Monique: – and then, like, maybe everybody else isn’t as excited about it; it doesn’t dampen what you’re, you’re like, I know, I know this is going to be great. I – you know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – that hasn’t even been, it hasn’t even been that. It’s like I was super-excited, and then everybody else was like, Yay! And I was like, Yay! [Laughs] So it’s been great. You  know, people have been coming forth with projects that have been like, that are like really wonderful, and it’s almost like, it’s almost like people were waiting for this moment.

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: You know, like, I feel like I was waiting for this moment and they’re waiting for this moment, and here we are –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – and the reception has been really fantastic. People are excited! I think, you know, sometimes you get to feeling like, I don’t know, like you’re the only one who wants a thing. Like, you know that’s not true. Like, I know I’m, I, I, I published romance my entire career.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Monique: But, you know, it’s been the conversation of, Well, we’re not really doing – you know, whatever – within the industry.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Monique: But at the same time I’m sitting here going like, But I still want all the things. I still want all the things.

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: And I see other people out here who want all the things.

Sarah: Yep.

Monique: So it’s, it’s, it’s been kind of like that level of excitement, you know, where everybody’s just super, you know, like, it’s almost like a new theme park has opened, and everybody wants to ride all the rides. [Laughs] So –

Sarah: I bet you got so many email messages from agents like, I have the perfect project for you.

Monique: Yes.

Sarah: Because there really is a sort of a, a vacancy in, in the initial titles that are part of the launch for Bramble. Those are titles that people are like, Oh, I want to read another book like this, but there aren’t that many. I want to read another book like, like the Maxwell book, but there aren’t that many.

Monique: Right.

Sarah: And when someone comes to us and says, All right, I really would like cozy space romance, like, that’s not a really big list of books right now. Like, I can give you some ideas, but some of them are out of print, right? So –

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: – now you have the opportunity to be like, I’m sorry, cozy space romance? Please give me one second.

Monique: [Laughs] Yeah. Actually, as we speak I think I have something that is exactly that in my inbox right now, I think. Isn’t that crazy?

Sarah: So when this episode, when this episode goes out somebody is going to be listening, and they’re going to be like, Tell me what it is, please.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Like, we do a regular feature called the Rec League, where people ask us, I’m looking for a book like this, or I’m looking for this flavor, I’m looking for books that have these criteria, and one of the recent ones was I want cozy space romances. I want cozy stories about – character-driven stories set in space, as opposed to plot-driven stories set in space, which are great, but there’s lots of those, and romance is generally a very character-driven genre, so combining those two is awesome!

Monique: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: Now, you have worked in publishing and in romance, as you’ve said, for twenty-five years, which is amazing. What are some of the changes that you’ve witnessed over your career, and, and what are some of the changes you’ve appreciated in the romance genre? I love, love-love-love when I get a chance to talk to someone with as deep a knowledge base as yours, because you’ve seen the genre evolve even longer than I’ve seen it evolve.

Monique: Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think – it’s hard to kind of like pinpoint, like, oh, this one change, because –

Sarah: Right.

Monique: – romance has continued to evolve in this fantastic way. I mean, like, you can see how it has evolved, and I think it’s, that’s kind of the coolest thing about it, you know? People like to – and they say this about other things, you know, like, Oh, that’s dead and this is dead, and the thing about romance, even, it doesn’t even matter what subgenre you’re talking about: it never dies; it’s always going through an evolution, you know. And it is one of those genres that it’s like, you can kind of see when, you know, the younger generation is coming into –

Sarah: Yes!

Monique: – you know, the, they’re coming out of Young Adult and they’re coming into romance, and how they start to influence, you know, by, by their own kind of like what they want to see in the market and how that ends up starting to shape what we end up publishing and the authors that kind of rise to the fore, the new voices that we get to discover.

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: And I remember, I mean, you know, when I was, like, a kid and I wasn’t supposed to be reading adult romances at all –

Sarah: Yes, I know all the words to that song, yes.

[Laughter]

Monique: – the romances that I was reading, like, then, they were great, but, I mean, oh my goodness, we would have some issues. So we’d have some issues –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Monique: – you know. There’s, like, highly questionable things going on in there, and I understand them within the context of the time that they were written –

Sarah: Yes.

Monique: – and what women were allowed to do? You know? Yes, there is also the whole conversation about what was understood to be cool and not cool?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Monique: But then there’s also the conversation about what women were actually allowed to express –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – and how they tried to work around that. So there’s all kinds of stuff at play in there, but, you know, it’s just – and even the role of women and how – I think that’s the coolest thing I love about it is the role, who women are allowed to be in these books, even though they were always written by women, the women that we see coming out, you know, in these books now, they are so much more fully themselves. They have a lot more agency, you know, and I knew, I know that was always the point of romance. I would never say that – I think it’s about one of the first places where women were allowed to express any kind of like, kind of agency, especially sexual agency! You know –

Sarah: Sexual agency especially, yes.

Monique: So I, I think that that’s always something you can say about romance, and that has continued to evolve, and now you have – you know, I remember where it was, there was a time where I think it was like, wasn’t that popular for a woman to be, like, a neuroscientist or, you know, or, or anything – like, there were just certain careers that, like, if she was that, you buried it in the copy?

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: [Laughs] You know, and now she’s allowed to be that, and…

Sarah: Now it’s a whole field of STEM romances and women in sciences and, yeah!

Monique: Yeah! So I think that’s been the coolest thing is just to see how romance has continued to evolve, you know, and that’s a testament to the people who are writing it, you know, and that’s a testament to the people who are fans of it.

Sarah: Yep.

Monique: You know? But I think that says something really bad-ass about this community. You know, like, we’re just, we just keep evolving, and I think that is really cool.

Sarah: I call that the, the Bruce Springsteen Theory of Publishing, especially in romance? There’s a, a song by Bruce Springsteen called “Atlantic City” – I used to live in New Jersey, so it was, like, the law that I be very familiar with the discography of Mr. Springsteen, but –

“Everything dies…that’s a fact, But maybe everything that dies someday comes back.”

Monique: Mm, yes.

Sarah: And that, and that’s so true in romance. Like, I remember when we started Smart Bitches in 2005, it was all paranormal all the time. Vampires –

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: – all the way down. Werewolves –

Monique: Yep.

Sarah: – absolutely. All, everyone –

Monique: Yep.

Sarah: – and the urban fantasy was sort of getting started ‘cause you’d have the heroines with the legs straight in the leather pants, and then the urban fantasy belt –

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: – with those –

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: – square rivets all over it? There was only that – I know; I’m onto you, publishing. I know there was only that one belt –

Monique: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and you just shared it among all the cover shoots, right? It was just the one belt. It was a Hot Topic belt.

Monique: That would seem – right? – that would seem to be the case. Like, who’s got the belt now? [Laughs]

Sarah: I need the stud belt, please; I have, I have, I have the leather pants, but they don’t have the belt.

And that, and paranormal romance, especially vampires and werewolves –

Monique: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – I think because it was before social media, that trend took a long time to die out.

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: And now it’s coming back, but you see the characters who have these powers, they’re women.

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: You have women entering menopause with magical powers; you have women who are witches; you have covens. Covens is so hot right now, which I am so hot for!

Monique: Yes, yes.

Sarah: And everything dies, and everything comes back, and so what I love, having looked at romance for so long, is knowing that whoever writes to me and says, I can’t find this, I’m like, I promise you in like five years there’ll be nothing but this; you’re okay.

Monique: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s all right. You’re going to be good.

Monique: You’re, this is true! [Laughs more]

Sarah: So do you have predictions as to what will be the trends? Can you make predictions, or is that not allowed in publishing professionalism?

Monique: I, I mean, I’m sure some people try. I never, I never try it, because I, I don’t, I don’t feel like I would be any good at trying to make that prediction? It’s so hard, like – and, and let me, don’t get me wrong. Like, we all try to make these kind of predictions, you know…

Sarah: Oh, of course! It’s a business; there is, there’s, like, a making money part of the business? Yeah.

Monique: Right. You know, so you’re always trying to be like, Okay, I think, I think this is going to, this is something that’s about to take off, you know. What you were saying about, you know, paranormal, fantasy, you know, etc., I mean, like, of course I can say that. Like, I think we can all clearly see that that’s been on the rise. I, I’m super excited to see, you know, even more kind of like dark romances, you know, coming into the paperback space. You know, I want, I want them in every space. I’m like, I want them in audio, in paperback, in e-book. I want, I want it everywhere, ‘cause I love dark romance. I think that’s something that is starting to come back, but I also say that because that’s what I want to happen? [Laughs]

Sarah: Of course!

Monique: That’s what I want to see happen. I mean, it never went anywhere, but it was, you know, like, I, I, in terms of its, like I said, expanding and being in more spaces and more formats, you know, etc.

Sarah: Yep!

Monique: And I am going to be publishing some of it, so –

Sarah: [Squees]

Monique: – exactly, yeah.

Sarah: And the other thing I find so fascinating right now about romance readership is that romance readers are very empowered, and I think this is part of coming out of YA when YA was so big and so lucrative and so fan-oriented. Those readers are now adults who are like, I would like this: I would like more nonbinary characters; I would like to see neurodivergence portrayed in more than just one way; I would like to see a lot more expression of sexual identity and trans identity. And one of the things that I love about Tor is how much that has happened.

Monique: Yes.

Sarah: That you have trans characters and that, that it’s not, much like any marginalized identity coming into a mainstream, it’s not the story of the struggle.

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s not just the struggle. It is the existence and the beauty of it as well. Is that –

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: – are those things we’ll see in Bramble, I hope, I hope, I hope?

Monique: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I don’t know how you can know that there’s more to your world and not include it, you know?

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: Unless, unless your goal is to try and not see it, right?

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: And, you know, I’m a woman of color, which doesn’t mean that I automatically understand anything, right? But I do understand some things. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: And the desire that I’ve always felt to see people like me, you know, in stories – and not just Black women but, like, nerdy Black women, you know?

Sarah: Oh yes.

Monique: ‘Cause I’m a nerdy Black woman.

[Laughter]

Monique: And I always have been in more ways than like one: not just the books, but I’m like, I’m a nerd in a couple of different ways. So there’s, you know, just, and, and, and realizing that, you know, there’s, there’s just so many wonderful stories and characters to be seen on the page; there’s so many wonderful characters, like, in our world, and I’m like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – how do you, how do you not explore that? How do you not have that on the page, especially when you know that there are people who are like, I want to see myself; I will buy that book. I’m like –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Monique: – we’ll give you that book. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep. Yes, that’s why I wrote a Hanukkah romance, because I got so many Christmas romances on my porch come September, October, and I’m like, hold up! It’s eight days! There’s candlelight! It’s super romantic! The food is fried and delicious, and it’s super hot, and I want to see, I want to see nerdy Jews at summer camp, so I wrote them down –

Monique: Yes.

Sarah: – and that was –

Monique: Yes.

Sarah: – that was my first, my first romance fiction publication that I wrote. Scared the poodle out of me to do that, but that’s what I wanted! I wanted to read – I basically wrote my own catnip. That’s what I wrote.

Monique: Yeah, see? Yeah. That’s perfect!

Sarah: Yep! So do you remember the first titles you worked on when you were at Avon?

Monique: Um –

Sarah: And how different are they from the books that you read and encounter now?

Monique: You know, not radically different. I, I don’t remember the first, first books, no. The interesting thing is I do remember the very, very first book that I ever acquired as an editor, and actually I just sent a Facebook post about this. It was called – it was by Rebecca Wade, and it was called – it was an outlaw – hold on a second. I’m, I’m going to see…

Sarah: Oh, that is, that is, you just said outlaw; I’m like, yep, I know exactly what era we’re talking about.

Monique: [Laughs] So this, it was a cowboy romance –

Sarah: Yep!

Monique: – and…

Sarah: Another genre that’s come back, now that I think about it.

Monique: Yeah! You know? I mean, it’s super interesting; like you said, you know, things die and they come back again.

Sarah: Yep. An Unlikely Outlaw?

Monique: Yes! An Unlikely Outlaw by Rebecca Wade is the first romance that I ever acquired and published. I started in at Avon, and I think I bought that book like somewhere between like four to six months after I started as an assistant, Editorial Assistant, and I published, you know, we published that book, and yeah, it was a sexy cowboy romance. [Laughs]

Sarah: I am, I am looking at the cover. There are horses running around in the background.

Monique: Yes.

Sarah: The grass is exhaling. His shirt is long gone.

Monique: [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep!

Monique: Yes.

Sarah: Yep!

Monique: He is hiking up that skirt, yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yes! Oh, he’s showing a little leg. Things are about to go down in Bone Town Meadow. It’s, it’s, it’s going to be interesting. Wow, that is –

Monique: …located Bone Town Meadow.

Sarah: Bone Town Meadow is in Texas, of course! I mean.

Monique: Of course!

Sarah: There’s many Bone Town locations, but this is Bone Town Meadow. Oh yeah. Horses are like, Whoa, whoa, whoa! We were here first! What are you doing?

Monique: That’s right! [Laughs]

Sarah: Wow! I wonder if that’s true –

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: – for most editors, that you remember the first book you acquire?

Monique: Yeah. I don’t know, but it’s, that was, I do remember, and I still have, I have the, you know, I have a copy of it at home, you know, and –

Sarah: Oh, obviously! I have a copy of the first romance I ever read. Oh, is it problematic!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Oh my goodness! Forced –

Monique: I know, and prob- –

Sarah: – ooh, forced seduction.

Monique: When you go back and look at stuff you’re like, Ooh, okay! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah, and this was like 1993, 1994, so the, the politics of being eager to have sex were not a thing that were written into the pages. They had to work around desire on the part of the female as something that was being visited upon her and, yeah.

Monique: That’s – yes.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Monique: Yes. I remember. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah. How, how, how amazing it is to know that you acquired An Unlikely Outlaw, and now you’re acquiring Jennifer Armentrout, and even those are totally different genres and very different portrayals of agency, the heart of that story is still going to be a romance.

Monique: Right. Yes. I think of, like when you think about how, you know, talking about the book that I first acquired – and actually, just to be clear, that’s, the editor for Jennifer is Ali Fisher, who’s amazing.

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: How, there are certain things that we don’t, like, in terms of, like, what we want as romance readers, you know, kind of stays the same, there’s some core things that stay the same?

Sarah: Absolutely.

Monique: But then there’s also this, you know, evolution of, you know, the characters, their agency, who they are in the world, how they see themselves, and how we, how, how that can happen with the core things that we still want always just kind of like, everything revolves around that.

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: It’s, it’s all tied together; it’s all necessary; it’s all, all that matters; all of it plays off of each other?

Sarah: Yep.

Monique: But, you know, it’s how, like, you know, you and I can sit here and talk about, like, Oh, I remember back then, and we loved it.

Sarah: Yep.

Monique: We didn’t know; we remember we loved it –

Sarah: Yep.

Monique: – and then right now today we’re like, you know, we’re different people: we’re older, we’re hopefully a little bit wiser. [Laughs]

Sarah: Gosh, I hope.

Monique: We’re grown up, you know, and, and all that stuff, and we love it still.

Sarah: Yep.

Monique: You know, it’s a new iteration in its new form, and then we’re probably going to love it in its next iteration –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – which is being…right now, you know? I believe.

Sarah: So I, I, I wouldn’t still be running the site if I didn’t think that was true. You know, I, I think the longevity of romance and other forms of genre fiction are drastically underestimated.

Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you were a nerdy Black woman in a number of ways. What are the ways in which you are nerdy? I wish to know, please, if you don’t mind sharing?

Monique: [Laughs]

Sarah: This is, this is very relevant to our interests. ‘Cause we’re basically nerdy romance fans at Smart Bitches; it’s kind of how we roll.

Monique: Yeah. So I, you know, I – this is not necessarily – well, maybe it is nerdy, but anyway – so, you know, I love things like, you know, I’m a big anime fan, you know. I’m trying to think if I’ve done cosplay. I haven’t done cosplay, like, directly; like, I’ve done dress-up at, like, Comic Con, you know.

Sarah: Right. I think that counts!

Monique: Yeah. Loved it and, you know, absolutely will do it again. [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, it’s just another expression of agency, right?

Monique: Yes! Absolutely. You know, I love things like appreciation of the weapon, so, which is like samurai swords, so I began collecting those. It’s a small collection at this point, very small. And I’ve been thinking, I kind of like collect samurai swords the way I collect my tattoos or do my tattoos, so it takes me, you know, it takes me a long time to kind of like figure out what I want next –

Sarah: Yep.

Monique: – you know? So, like, I can spend five years just kind of ruminating on what I want, and then I’ll decide, Oh, I, that’s the tattoo that I want. So I kind of approach my samurai swords the same way? Like, what do I, what do I want? So I just kind of like circle around and just kind of look at things and, you know, and then some day I’m going to be like, That’s the next one. [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s so cool! Please tell me you bring your samurai swords to, to Sales meetings?

Monique: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like they’re in your office like, Okay, we’ve got to, we’ve got to, we’ve got to talk to Monique about budget; does she have a sword?

[Laughter]

Monique: I’m, like, I guess you could say technically I do, like, if I, if I’m in, you know, the room where they’re mounted on my wall and they can see them behind me while, as I’m presenting. [Laughs] So.

Sarah: Outstanding strategy. I mean, someone from publishing is going to listen to this and be like, Why didn’t I collect swords? I would have had such a good meeting!

Monique: [Laughs] So yeah, you know, anime, samurai swords, and then I’m, I’m a nerd about, about baking, you know.

Sarah: Yes! This is one of my questions! I noticed in your Twitter bio that it says baker, and baking is incredibly nerdy. I mean, it’s chemistry, right?

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s a very specific chemistry, and I, like many people –

Monique: Yeah.

Sarah: – have a, have a sourdough starter from the pandemic. Its name is Steve Glutenberg, and I love it so much.

Monique: [Laughs] That’s perfect!

Sarah: It’s really good, too. It makes great bread; my, my teenagers are obsessed when I make sourdough: Could we just eat the whole thing? Fine.

So what are you baking lately? And is this a pandemic habit like mine?

Monique: No, no. Mine started a while ago. I think it started with cheesecakes. So I do like…

Sarah: Ooh! Challenging!

Monique: Yeah, love making cheesecakes, and then, you know, and the nerdy part comes in, not so much because I’m really good at the science of it; I’m good at the investigation part, right? So when I want to make something, like, I’ll try something, and if it doesn’t come out the way I want it to, you know, I then begin investigating. So, you know, eventually my whole, kind of the way I approach baking now starts with the investigation. So I’ll look at, I want to try something, I’ll look at twelve different recipes –

Sarah: Right.

Monique: – you know. And then I’ll decide on something, or I’ll modify based on this or whatever. If something goes wrong with it I’m like, I’ve got to look into it, and they’ll be like, you should really use a copper bowl about – you know, so, like, I will go –

Sarah: Yep.

Monique: – deep diving. And then I’m super curious about, like, taste and texture, you know, so I have, you know, all my extracts, and then I redid my whole kitchen!

Sarah: Ooh!

Monique: Because I was like, I was like, this is not an eating kitchen; this is a baking kitchen. So I did a double oven, and I did the, you know, I have an industrial baking rack and, ‘cause I went through a phase where I was doing sugar cookies a lot, and you know they, there’s a lot of, like, I needed to cool them and, you know, I needed the stacks, and then I was taking orders and, you know, doing – ‘cause I was just, like, completely nerding out.

And I also nerd out on decorating, you know. So I love making things look beautiful, so I work with basically all the, all the, you know, all the things. So fondant and Italian meringue buttercream and Swiss meringue buttercream and, you know, and modeling chocolate and, you know, I have molds, I have stencils, I have, I can, you know, use, I use the – I have basically everything. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Monique: …decorate, I taught myself, you know, watching videos and other bakers that I really admire who were giving, like, classes online or on YouTube, and I just would learn how to, you know, do it and just kind of do it over and over and over again. So I can, I like making things look really beautiful. [Laughs] That was like, and people were like, Oh, it’s too beautiful to eat. I was like, ‘scuse me?

Sarah: No.

Monique: It should be, that should be why you want to eat it. [Laughs]

Sarah: So I always ask this question: what books do you want to tell people about?

Monique: You know, I was thinking about this question, and I was thinking about it more along the lines of, like, what, what I’m reading –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Monique: – you know, currently, and even, of course, unless I start thinking about what I’m reading, I start thinking about what I love to read, my favorite authors. So currently I’m reading Before I Let Go by Kennedy Ryan, which is awesome. So awesome.

Sarah: Kennedy Ryan is so talented it’s –

Monique: Yes.

Sarah: – just staggering.

Monique: Yes.

Sarah: Like, I know the alphabet; I know all the letters in it.

Monique: Yes.

Sarah: And then Kennedy Ryan gets the alphabet, and it’s like, I didn’t know that was a thing you could do!

Monique: Yeah. Yes. So, yeah, Kennedy Ryan, and then another author who I’m, I hope I’m saying her name correctly, but RuNyx. So she wrote this book called Gothikana, but then she also wrote – it’s dark romance; it’s so good!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Monique: It’s so good! [Laughs] So I’m like, I’m, I like, so into her world and, and I’ve been, you know, devouring that.

But then, you know, like, I, I always come back to – and this is going to feel wildly divergent, but in a way it’s not, right? – I always return to James Baldwin, you know. James Baldwin and Zora Neale Hurston are kind of like my authors that I return to in moments of needing to understand the world, and they are also the authors that I return to in moments of joy, you know. And I think for me they are some of the authors who actually really taught me about love, you know? And the ability, like what love can do and what it looks like in the face of incredible challenge and incredible hardship.

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: And what that actually, like, really, really, really, really looks like, you know. And so I came across James Baldwin because my mom had a copy of one of his books in the house, and I read him, and I was too young to, like, fully understand everything he was talking about, but I remember feeling profoundly changed, you know?

Sarah: Yes.

Monique: And then I went to the library and I just started reading all of his stuff, and, you know, again, too young to understand all of it, but just understanding at least enough to be like, Oh my God. Like, my brain was, like, on fire, you know.

And then Zora Neale Hurston I didn’t read until I was in college, and I was so upset, because I was like, Why am I just now hearing about this woman, you know? And, you know –

Sarah: Who didn’t tell me? Who knew about this and didn’t tell me? Yeah, I know that feeling.

Monique: Exactly! That’s how I felt. It was just, it was like, it was like, almost like this foundational shift for me, being exposed to Zora’s work –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – you know. And so in a lot of ways, you know, as much as I was reading romance at a really young age, like, they really kind of helped me kind of alchemize what that means in, in a really meaningful way, which I think I also then ended up bringing back to my romances. I was reading them when I was – then when I started acquiring them, you know, etc., and then kind of has helped shape the evolution of my thought about what they are. You wouldn’t, I don’t think you would ever expect anybody to say those two things together?

Sarah: Makes perfect sense to me, though.

Monique: Yeah?

Sarah: Because one of the things I love about reading James Baldwin’s writing is, I love, I love reading writers who do the incredibly difficult work of reframing the way you see things when the default is so pervasive and so strong that it’s hard to break the frame and say, Actually, what if you considered things this way? Like, oh! Oh! And you’re right: it just, like, blows your mind.

And romance does that all the time. Romance does the work of reframing: this is what sex is; this is what romance is; this is what, this is what a healthy relationship looks like. Romance is going to be like, no, what if we reframe that? What if we share it in a different way? And Kennedy Ryan does that!

Monique: Yes. Yes. And I love how, you know, in, in, in romance how, you know, like, in other stories it’s like, well, you’ve got to get the thing and, you know, bring back the boon and go down into the cave and rescue, and you got to get the thing, and it’s the quest and, you know, and everything.

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: And in romance, you don’t get, you don’t win in the end unless you deal with your shit. Like, you know, like, you have to deal with your demons and wrestle them to the ground in order to get your happy ending. Like, you have to deal with your inner stuff.

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: And I think the quest is a symbol of that and you see that played out with, if it’s done well, you see that the character does have to face a lot of inner demons, but I love how that is, romance almost, like, strips it down bare, and it’s like, if you want this love –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Monique: – that is the best love that you’ve experienced in your life, you have to overcome your fears in order to have it.

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: Let’s do that!

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: If you do not, you will not have it. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep!

Monique: And I love, I love that romance does that.

Sarah: Yeah!

Monique: You know.

Sarah: One of the essential elements of romance is identity.

Monique: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And being identified and being seen, but also being your authentic self, which can be incredibly painful in the face of a lot of forces that can tell you to not be your authentic self.

Monique: Which brings us back to James Baldwin, who –

Sarah: Exactly!

Monique: – deals with that all up and down in his work! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes. And just his life is just fascinating!

Monique: But it’s so rooted in love, and it’s so –

Sarah: It is!

Monique: – it is so rooted in love, and I find that utterly, you know, amazing and powerful and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Monique: – just, you know, like – I, I will stop, ‘cause I can keep talking about – [laughs] – talking about that.

Sarah: If you would ever like to, to have an extended conversation for the podcast about romance and James Baldwin I’m a hundred thousand percent here for it. It would be a beautiful thing.

Monique: I, I will take you, I will do that! If you, if you say let’s do it like a month from now, I will do that. I will be there for it.

Sarah: I would be honored. Just, I will just hit Record and sit back and hold my tea and, Yes, mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely.

Monique: [Laughs] Let’s do it!

Sarah: Absolutely!

So where can people find you if you, if you wish to be found on the internet?

Monique: [Laughs] So I can be found, I think the, probably the best place to find me is on Instagram.

Sarah: Yeah?

Monique: So it is Monique, so M-O-N-I-Q underscore N-Y-C underscore [@moniq_nyc_]. And that’s on Instagram.

Sarah: Awesome! I will link.

Thank you so, so much for doing this and taking time out of an extremely busy first day to talk to me. I’m so honored that you agreed. Thank you so, so much, and seriously, we’re so excited about Bramble.

Monique: Oh, well, thank you for having me on. Thank you for letting me talk about, with you, talk about romance and James Baldwin and all kinds of cool stuff. I’m really excited.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you so much to Monique for agreeing to sit down with me and do a whole interview on her first day at Bramble. You can find all of the links, all of the books, and all of the things we talked about in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

I always end with a bad joke, and this week is no exception. This joke comes from the podcast Discord, which is a benefit of signing up for the Patreon. It is truly a lovely, lovely community. We talk about books and TV shows and recipes and what we’re crafting and what we’re playing and what we’re listening to. It’s, it’s really lovely, and I am so very grateful to get to hang out with everyone there each day.

This joke is from jfhobbit. Are you ready? Okay.

What do you call a magician that lost their magic?

Give up? What do you call a magician who lost their magic?

Ian.

[Laughs] Ian. Thank you, jfhobbit!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[end of music]