351. Hidden Gems in Romance and Listener Email with Amanda & Sarah

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hey there, and welcome to episode number 351 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell. With me today is Amanda, and we are chatting about a lot of different things. We talk about hidden gems in romance that maybe don’t get mentioned that often. We talk about making recommendations, and we talk about how to recommend books when you know that your opinion of them is kind of tinted through a lens of nostalgia. I also use the word “charming” way too much, and I apologize in advance. Then we listen to anseler email. Did you hear what just came out of my mouth? We listen to anseler email. That is so great. Alas, it is not what we actually do. We’re going to answer listener email, and we’re going to talk about a whole bunch of things, including a question from a reader who has some questions about sexuality. Stay tuned to the end for three things: bonus book recommendations, lipstick recommendations from Amanda, and a truly terrible dad joke that has been making me laugh for four days.

I want to thank Lauren, Paroma, and Anonymous for their email messages in this episode. I’ve also got some T-shirts to tell you about in the outro.

Now, if you want to get in touch with us, you can always do so at [email protected], or you can leave a message at 1-201-371-3272.

This podcast episode is being brought to you by Kensington Books and by Never Deny a Duke by Madeline Hunter. The last Decadent Duke is about to meet his match in New York Times bestselling author Madeline Hunter’s fabulous series finale in Never Deny a Duke. Fighting to restore her family’s lands, fiery Scottish lass Davina MacCallum comes up against a formidable foe in the Duke of Brentworth, who refuses to restore the disputed property. As Davina and Brentworth search for proof of her claims, can they deny the proof that a love is blossoming between them as well? A classic and witty battle of wills ensues, as only Madeline Hunter can deliver. Never Deny a Duke is on sale now wherever books are sold and at kensingtonbooks.com.

Every podcast episode gets a transcript. This week’s transcript is brought to you by garlicknitter and by Radish! Discover a world where storytelling is reimagined with Radish, an app with thousands of romance stories from bestselling authors like Lisa Renee Jones, Kelley Armstrong, Julie Kenner, and Sylvia Day in bite-size chapters, perfect to read on your morning commute, lunch break, or before bed. You can joy live chat rooms and interact with authors and fellow readers who love the same stories you do, and you can enjoy epic romances full of everything from billionaire bosses and tattooed bad boys to sexy vampires and paranormal shifters. Explore a fresh collection of original stories written by some of daytime TV’s top Emmy-winning writers, bingeable and fast-paced stories that you will not find anywhere else. Maybe you’re interested in romantic fantasies like Heart of Dragons, where a woman is ripped away from her dashing fiancée to be sacrificed to the dragons that live beneath the earth, only to find herself falling in love with a powerful dragon prince. Or you can dive into Gita’s outrageous dating life as she joins a shifter-only dating app. Her super-sexy date Reece Darby turns out to be human, and their crazy sexual chemistry makes it hard to believe that he’s not into shifters. Radish has it all. You can download the app in the Google Play Store or the Apple Store for free today and begin your adventure on Radish.

If you have not listened to us before or you’re new to the podcast, welcome! And if you’ve been a long-time listener, hello. And if you’re a member of our Patreon community, thank you. If you have supported the show with a monthly pledge of any amount, thank you very, very much. You are helping me ensure that each episode receives a transcript, and you keep the show going. You’re making every episode accessible to everyone, which is very important to me and to the many people who read and listen as well, so thank you. If you would like to join the Patreon community, please have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges start at one dollar a month, and by making a pledge, you’re saying that what we do here has value to you, so thank you in advance for your consideration!

I will have information at the end of the show as to the music that you are listening to, I will have a preview of what is coming up on Smart Bitches this week, and a terrible joke that has been making me laugh for probably four days. In fact, I have been walking up to my family members and saying the punch line because it makes me laugh, which isn’t annoying at all, I am told, not in the least. So stay tuned to the end, and don’t forget we’ve got lipstick recommendations, ‘cause Amanda’s really good at lipstick.

So let’s get this podcast started. On with our conversation about hidden gems and some listener email!

[music]

Sarah: So you wanted to talk about hidden gems, especially because you spend a lot of time recommending books. Like, how many recommendation requests do you get on a given Wednesday?

Amanda: Oh boy. So it’s been on a, an, a little bit of an accidental hiatus ‘cause it’s just been bonkers lately, but normally I would say we get anywhere – it depends – between, like, fifty on the low end – I’m low-balling here – to, I think at most we had, like, two hundred when we first started doing it.

Sarah: Good gosh!

Amanda: Yeah. Yep! [Laughs]

Sarah: But it, it repeats, I notice. Like, people were interested in, in several specific themes that you can just sort of recommend similar titles, because you’ve already recommended a title in that theme already.

Amanda: Yeah, and sometimes I do repeat myself in some of the recommendations that I give. There’s one that comes up a lot where people ask for plus-sized heroes or husky heroes, and I only know of a small handful of them, so I just feel like I’m recommending, like, the same, you know, three to five titles for that request because there’s not a lot that I know of and there’s not a lot that I can find. So there are repeats of recommendations that I give, so it’s definitely like not, you know, every book is different.

Sarah: Right. Right, right, right. So with all of those recommendations, you really like the idea of hidden gems, books that maybe aren’t as mentioned or as well-known or are older, but in some ways still hold up.

Amanda: Yeah! We get a lot of recommendations where people will mention, I want, you know, a friends-to-lovers historical, but I’ve read all the big names, or –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – someone’s like, I want a deep-cut marriage-of-convenience, so something that might be older or less well-known or, like, what’s the best thing you’ve read recently that I should read that I don’t know about? So –

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: – a lot of people are asking, like, for off-the-beaten-path sort of recommendations.

Sarah: And that can be really tricky, because, I mean, there are some older romances that I just adore and can reread any time, but I wouldn’t necessarily recommend them to a reader who isn’t as familiar with the genre and how it’s changed, because I can examine the things that don’t work to my contemporary reader sensibilities and recognize them and sort of locate them in context. I’m not going to hand somebody Midsummer Magic by Catherine Coulter and be like, yeah, the part where he uses cream to ease his way into the heroine because they’re in a marriage of convenience and she didn’t want to marry him and she tried to pretend she was ugly so that he wouldn’t marry her ‘cause he’s kind of a dick, just, just, just take that in stride. Like, I can’t say that to somebody! But I still read that book.

Amanda: I struggle when someone asks for a, like an old school or an older book that holds up, because –

Sarah: Oh, that’s so difficult!

Amanda: – ‘cause I’m not a huge rereader, either, so –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – for example, I love The Bride by Julie Garwood. It is an older title, and I’m wary of rereading it now because, like, part of me doesn’t want to ruin that lovely experience that I had when I read it the first time.

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Amanda: So it’s hard to give recommendations for books that you maybe read like a decade ago, or two decades ago, and you’re like, I don’t know if I would recommend that, but I’m also too lazy, and there are too many books to read now to go back and read it and see if it, like, holds up?

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: There are just too many books.

Sarah: Oh God, hourly. Since you pressed Record, four hundred books have been published!

Amanda: Yep. That’s how it goes!

Sarah: Pretty much! So what are some hidden gems that you would recommend to people if they asked you for recommendations now?

Amanda: So I have an older series and a newer one that I, I both feel like they don’t get enough attention? The first is a contemporary series; it’s the Fast Track series by Erin McCarthy.

Sarah: I love this so much!

Amanda: I love this series. I read it, I think, I think I was out of high school and just starting college, and –

Sarah: I’m so fucking old. Anyway.

Amanda: [Laughs] – and it’s about race car drivers. I’m not into race car driving; I’m not into NASCAR.

Sarah: Oh, me neither! I mean, you could not have sold me on this book.

Amanda: And I just really liked the cast of characters. The first book has an older heroine. She has kids. The hero is younger, and he’s just very cool with how secure the heroine is and, like, who she is and her age and the fact that she has kids, and the heroine’s kind of like freaking out, ‘cause she’s like, I don’t know what I’m doing dating this younger guy! I feel like I should be more responsible. And the series just keeps getting better. It’s finished. I know Erin McCarthy is writing new stuff; I think she’s writing some New Adult contemporary, but that’s not my thing so I haven’t really picked it up. But I love that series so much, and I highly recommend it to, to everyone. Yeah, I just remember being so taken with it when I started reading them, and I’m like, these are great! Why aren’t more people talking about them?

Sarah: And the, and the secondary characters whose marriage gets put back together?

Amanda: I know! It’s the third book, I believe. I can’t remember the name of it.

Sarah: Yes, it is the third. There is an older book that I talk about a lot, Instant Attraction by Jill Shalvis?

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: Which is the first of a trilogy that takes place up in the mountains of California in a sort of extreme winter sports adventure company, where they do, like, snowboarding and hiking and heli-skiing and, like, all kinds of stuff with the snow, but in that series there is a secondary romance – or actually, it’s a secondary reconciliation – that takes place in the background between two characters, and it’s one of my favorite things about that trilogy, because their repair of the their relationship and the fact that they’ve been married and they’re trying to rediscover themselves with each other as older people is so good! But it’s, it’s really hard for me to be like, listen, read this trilogy for these people in the background.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s a great idea. You should do that! No.

Amanda: The second series that I would recommend, it’s a trilogy, and I think, like, that trilogy is finished, but, nothing’s been announced, but I believe the author, I think, is going to write a spinoff or something tangential, but it’s The Legend of All Wolves series by Maria Vale. This is a newer series, and it really plays with the mythology of, like, werewolves and shifters, and I know paranormal isn’t as popular anymore as, like, historical romances and stuff –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – but I – like, if you want some beautiful writing, read these books. It’s so atmospheric, the way –

Sarah: Is that scenery porn?

Amanda: Yes! It’s so good!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: It’s so good, and she, Vail writes some really interesting pairings, and the third book in this series – I think it’s called Forever Wolf – is so unique, and it was one of those books that I was thinking about for a long time afterwards, and I cried, because I had to come to terms with the happy ending in the book wasn’t the happy ending I, I wanted? But it was the happy ending that the heroine wanted. I, I don’t want to spoil it.

Sarah: No, I know exactly what you mean.

Amanda: The ending was perfect for the heroine. It couldn’t have been any better. I, I wouldn’t say I was, like, disappointed, but I had to realize that, like, the ending isn’t about me? It’s about, like, what would make the characters most happy?

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: And I don’t think I’ve experienced that before –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – in a book. The books are beautifully written. It does seem really interesting stuff with the paranormal romance mythology that we kind of –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – get used to when it comes to, like, werewolves and shifters, and they’re very, like, I don’t know, introspective, and the setting is beautiful, so I really liked those books! I feel like there’s nothing else quite like them that I’ve read?

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: They’re just, like, really unique, and I wish more people would read them!

Sarah: I have to say, when you proposed this topic I was like, I’m so fucked! I can’t think of anything, and now I have like sixty.

Amanda: [Laughs] Yeah, there we go! See?

Sarah: Yeah! So my problem – not really a problem – is that, one, I have this website, so if there’s a book I like I’m just going to talk about it, and if I talk about it, it’s not very hidden anymore?

Amanda: That’s true.

Sarah: You know? But also, I am aware that my taste in books, and even what, what the, what the books look like, doesn’t necessarily match what the majority of romance readers may be interested in. Like, New Adult never did it for me. Super angsty, dark, emotionally wrenching romance, which has been popular for a little bit, not for me. I, I don’t even like waxed, oily man chest on my covers. Like, abs and nipples do nothing for me.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, there’s a, there’s a new, what is it, Jo Goodman cover, and she’s writing the –

Amanda: Yes!

Sarah: – the historical series? The covers are photographed. The women have, like, really good-looking vests on! Like, A Touch of Forever, I want to –

Amanda: Like, waistcoats and –

Sarah: Right?! This woman has this great vest, and, and jacket on, and she looks great, and I’m like, who dressed her? Can we talk about that? This looks great! But I have never been a waxed man chest cover person, so I’ve always had this sense that the things that I really go for are not things that other people go for, which is probably why I talk about books so much. But way, way back, back in, like, 2005 or 2006 – you know, long-ass time ago –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – I used to do this thing with Jane from Dear Author called Save the Contemporary.

Amanda: Oh, I remember that.

Sarah: Because contemporaries were not selling! Can you imagine? I don’t think it needs to be saved anymore.

Amanda: No.

Sarah: I think contemporary –

Amanda: I think it’s doing just fine.

Sarah: I think contemporary’s doing just fine, but we would promote a book! Like, it was like, hey, we like this book. One of the ones that we promoted was Talk Me Down by Victoria Dahl. Early contemporary Victoria Dahl is so fun.

Amanda: I remember checking this one out from my library.

Sarah: It’s so charming, and it’s, it’s a, it’s an early book. Like, you can see, reading Jane Doe and some of her later books, how she’s grown as a writer, but she was always really good at dialogue and at, and at things where you got the sense that these were real people, and then they were doing really funny shit. Like, in Victoria Dahl’s first one, Talk Me Down – which, by the way, has a fantastic cover – the heroine is an erotic fiction author, and she writes under a pseudonym, and she’s got a stalker, so her mojo has sort of run out. She’s really tired of, of pretending to feel sexy when she feels miserable, so she moves to this home town and tiny, tiny town in Colorado, I think it is? And the chief of police is the guy she ends up with, and there’s one scene where they’re, like, making out in his car, and she reaches up and turns on all of his lights and sirens –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – because all the switches are in the ceiling, and it’s hilarious! I love it so much! Like, I think about that book, and I’m like, oh, I remember that! It made me happy!

I also think that if you like Sarah Morgan’s Harlequin Presents, they never were as popular here in the States, but she wrote a whole bunch of medicals, and Harlequin Medicals were much bigger in the UK and Scotland and Ireland and that part of the market than they were in the United States. Her medicals were –

Amanda: Which is really interesting!

Sarah: I find it fascinating. I have always enjoyed the Harlequin Medicals that I’ve picked up from authors that I know are good, and Sarah Morgan started writing romance because she used to be a nurse, and so she would write romances where the doctors always did exactly what the nurses fucking told them to do.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I was like, well, that’s fantasy, isn’t it! And she’s like, yeah, it is! But her medicals are really interesting. Sometimes they’re very small town medicals, and these were written, you know, eight or nine years ago. They’re so charming.

There’s one book that I read ages ago, it’s called Strawberries for Dessert by Marie Sexton, and it is so charming and then surprisingly, like, punch-you-in-the-feels emotional? The, the, the two heroes go on a blind date. One of them is very sort of buttoned up and formal, and the other is this really flamboyant, outlandish guy, and their first date goes terribly. Like, I know this week Aarya was talking about meet-disasters? This is a meet-disaster. Like, their first date is so bad that the, one of the heroes is like, clearly you’re not here for me? You keep looking at your phone and doing work. I’m leaving. And he just stands up and walks out. Like, it’s incredible.

I also decided to look at some of my older recommendations. I don’t know if I’ve talked about Summer of You by Kate Noble before on the podcast? I probably have; the podcast has been around for a while. I love that book. It is so charming. I remember finishing that book, and I made this noise, and Adam looked at me and went, good book, dear? Like, yes.

There’s a bunch of older historicals that I just find so charming in this sort of like sparkly, late summer sunlight, nostalgia kind of way? Theresa Romain’s Season for a Series is the same way, and the early Pennyroyal Green books are the same way, but I’ve talked about this enough: they’re not really –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – hidden. The other hidden gem, sort of, is One Reckless Summer and Whisper Falls by Toni Blake. One Reckless Summer is a small town romance from 2009, so it’s ten years old – holy cow, I am so old – but Whisper Falls is book three in that series, and the heroine has to go home and live with, near her family because she has severe Crohn’s disease, and I remember reading this and thinking, how are you going to make a heroine with Crohn’s? Like, this is the most unsexy illness. How are you going to deal with it? And the way in which the hero learns how to help her take care of herself and how to care for her when she’s having problems is so cute.

Oh! And early contemporary Shannon Stacey. Like, Exclusively Yours and Yours to Keep, books number one and number three of the Kowalski series, those are adorable, and they are so funny, especially Yours to Keep. Your, you might like Yours to Keep; it’s a fake relationship story. The hero has been on deployment, and the heroine, in order to keep her mother off her back and, like, all the other family relatives, has been like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we’re dating, and then he comes home, and she’s like, listen –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – I need to talk to you. People think we’re together? And so they agree to keep up this farce after he’s left the army, and they start leaving each other notes about each other so, like, like, they can get to know each other quietly, and it’s so charming. You might like that one; there’s a fake relationship.

Amanda: I’ll add it to my, my ever-growing list of books.

Sarah: So what do you do when you get a whole bunch of recommendations?

Amanda: Oh. Like, on Instagram? Like, that way? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah! Yeah, it’s Wednesday, isn’t it? You’re strapping in for today’s round, right?

Amanda: So my plan of attack usually is to go through all of the requests and immediately answer the ones that I can think of something off the top of my head, and so maybe that takes away a quarter to maybe like thirty-five percent of the requests. And then after that, if there’s any that I can easily identify that might be super tough –

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Amanda: – or is in a genre that I don’t really read, like romantic suspense, I will turn to the Bitches on our Slack and list some of the requests that I am iffy on, and you and Elyse and Carrie are all very helpful.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: Then after that, with what’s left and the ones that I have to take more time for, I usually consult our lovely database. If someone’s looking for like a friends-to-lovers, forced-proximity romance, I can try to go through and find that in our forced-proximity or friends-to-lovers –

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: – themes. So that’s usually the way it goes. If there’s anything that I’m really struggling with and Google isn’t helpful, I will just – [laughs] yeah – I will just post, I’ll reply to it so it’s on our Stories and, like, hey, I’m having trouble with this request. If any of you, our followers, have suggestions, please DM me, and so sometimes I’ll get some really helpful DMs from our followers on Instagram who can answer the request and suggest books that I have never even heard of. So that’s usually my, like –

Sarah: Helpful.

Amanda: – work flow. Yeah. Overall, though, it’s really worth it when I get, when we get, like, a DM from someone. They’re like, oh my God, I picked up this because you recommended it the other week, and I loved it! I love hearing those stories of people picking up a book that we recommended and them, like, really enjoying it.

Sarah: That’s so cool.

Amanda: It makes me so happy!

Sarah: You want to do some listener email?

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: We’ve got some good email!

Amanda: Yeah, we have!

Sarah: So okay, I’ll do the first one:

Hi Sarah,

Let me start out by saying that I am a HUGE fan of the podcast. You are awesome.

No, actually, you’re awesome for saying so, so thank you.

I’ve always been a reader, but grew up saying I would never read romance. My mom read regencies and I thought they were so unbelievably dumb. And then, right after college, my friend who was working at a publishing house mailed me a box of books. And one of them just happened to be a Jennifer Crusie book. I was broke and it was a free book, so I read it… and I was hooked. That was 17 years ago, and I’m now a total romance junkie. I mostly read historicals, but I’ll mix it up from time to time.

Romance novels are how I relax (see also crochet and weightlifting), but recently my worlds have started to collide. I’m a trademark/copyright attorney and over the past few years I’ve had the pleasure of working with a number of authors, including romance novelists. This is such a happy part of my practice.

I’m going to be speaking at Book Lovers – which means that I’ll be there for the live show!! Squee! I can’t tell you how excited I am.

Maybe (hopefully?) I will get a chance to meet you in person, but I wanted to at least finally take the opportunity to say hello and to thank you for a truly wonderful podcast.  

All the best,

Lauren

Now, I don’t understand why you would have any authors working with you on plagiarism and copyright –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and, and trademark right now. Like, there’s zero news in that arena. And I also love that our tastes completely overlap, because I also weight lift, and I cross-stitch, and I read romance, if you didn’t know. I think it so great how many people trace their love of the genre to a specific author and how often that author is Jennifer Crusie. Like, that has happened so many times. Including the idea that her books, especially Bet Me, used to be my go-to I don’t know a thing about you, but the chances of you liking this book are high? That book had something for everybody in it in a lot of ways. There used to be this great big divide between people who thought Bet Me was Jennifer Crusie’s best book and people who thought Welcome to Temptation was the best one she wrote.

Amanda: I’m in, I’m in neither camp.

Sarah: Neither camp? Yeah.

Amanda: I’m an, I’m an Agnes and the Hitman girl. [Laughs]

Sarah: I love Agnes. I love her so much. I still think about those banana nut pancakes she used to make. Or were they, yeah, they were pecans! I’m going to have to reread both of those and Agnes, I think. I think I’m going to have to do a big reread this summer.

Amanda: Do, like, a Clash of the Titans Jennifer Crusie –

Sarah: Yeah!

Amanda: – reread.

Sarah: Yeah. What about you?

Amanda: So after reading this email, I mentioned that I thought it was interesting that Lauren though Regencies were unbelievably dumb – [laughs] – and contemporary romances were what kind of got her into reading romance, and I’m part of two book clubs. One is romance, so there’s no problem there. The other is what we call an Any Book Club, where we just get together – it’s kind of like an in-person Whatcha Reading? We talk about what we’ve been reading the last month, what are some good books we read, what are some bad books we read, so we just get together and chat about books. And a majority of the people who attend that meeting aren’t dedicated romance readers or have never even read a romance in their life, but I’ve converted several of them to, like, dipping their toe into the romance waters, and a lot of people in my personal life and that I’ve come to meet and engage with often come to me for recommendations on, you know, here’s what I read normally; what would you suggest? Because – and I’ve told several people this – that you’re not not a romance reader. It’s just a matter of finding the romance for you.

Sarah: Yes. I completely agree.

Amanda: ‘Cause there’s just so many subgenres and so many tropes and so many kinds of characters that I refuse to believe there’s not one romance novel out there that everyone can enjoy.

Sarah: I agree with you. I, I used to joke that, you know, four out of five dentists like romance only because the fifth one didn’t know they were reading romance –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – or they hadn’t found the one that worked.

Amanda: Yep.

Sarah: It’s so true. All right, second email:

I’ve wanted to write to you for two years now, but it’s kind of like writing to a KPop idol.

Amanda: Oh! [Laughs]

Sarah:

You don’t know if your email will be read, and even if it is, they probably get the same kind of fangirling a dozen times a day.

I mean, first of all, I do not get fangirling a dozen times a day, and even if I did, it would never get old.

Amanda: It’s more like half a dozen times a day.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Not even!

But six months ago, I did something that wouldn’t have happened without you, and at this point, I feel like I owe this email of gratitude to both of us.

First, a bit of context. I used to read a lot of romance novels in school and college. Subsequently, my love for the genre transcended books and made me explore romantic storytelling in other media – like, Korean dramas. For a while, I worked as a copywriter by day, and a KDrama reviewer by night for sites like Dramabeans. The watching and the reviewing of said dramas swallowed up all my time, and I didn’t have much energy left over for books.

But the one thing I kept doing was listening to your podcasts, and even picking up a few of the books you discussed, which were my catnip and I knew wouldn’t languish on a TBR pile.

Then, two years ago, I decided to launch a podcast centered on KDramas with my friends, Anisa and Saya.

I think I’m saying that right. The podcast, if all you have set up to listen and, and take notes, is called Dramas over Flowers. I will link to it; do not worry.

The three of us lived in three different continents, our network was often terrible on Skype (we have discovered Zoom now), and none of us had ever edited audio before. (We were also all of South Asian descent, and international conversation around KDramas till then had felt very much driven by either White or East Asian women from the US. We weren’t sure how welcome our voices would be.) The task of editing fell on me, since I was the most eager and least encumbered with work/family obligations.

The first episode of Dramas over Flowers –

Can we talk about how much I love that name?

Amanda: It’s a, it’s a reference to a K-drama!

Sarah: I know! I love it so much! It’s so perfect!

The first episode of Dramas over Flowers was terrible. The runtime was too long, and while editing I’d focused way too much on deleted ums and uhs, and not enough on ensuring that everything left in was necessary to the flow of the conversation.

Believe me, I understand how you feel.

Over the next year, while we wrangled with trying to figure out our format, I listened closely to your style of hosting and editing. How you didn’t agonise over cutting out every flub or error. How comfortably you guided the conversations. How your episodes were always perfectly timed to conclude with the end of a nice, long walk with my dog. =) I emulated your style of intro/outro (though we don’t have your ease, so we’ll likely move to something pre-recorded in the future). I realised how valuable a transcript could be and happily found someone willing to donate her time and energy to the cause. And I learned to edit the content of our podcast with an ear for interesting exchanges, rather than focusing on getting our speech perfect (which was a doomed mission with three accents – American, British, and Indian!). At some point, I fell in love with the craft of it.

Then, six months ago, I got paid to edit someone else’s podcast.

And this is the point, while reading this email for the first time, that my entire heart exploded with joy.

Amanda: Oh!

Sarah:

I had no idea how much I wanted to move in this direction. It’s been a gradual shift, but finally, this month, I earned almost all of my target income from editing podcasts! It’s like the best dream!

There’s much more I want to do, of course. I’ve only just begun to dip my toes into the waters of serious content creation, and I have my own ideas I want to give life to. I’m a writer first (even though copywriting nearly killed that in me) and there is much about the world of storytelling that I want to discuss through words and sound.

But I’ll never forget that I got the courage and inspiration to start on this path by listening to the effortless structure of your podcasts.

Thank you from all my heart.

With much, much love,

Paroma (from India)

Okay, Paroma, you made my entire heart explode, and I will, of course, link to Dramas over Flowers. I cannot tell anyone except just the dog how excited I am about this email! I think it was Caitlin Schiller from Simplify who said that one of the draws of podcasting is that you’re listening in on a conversation. You’re eavesdropping on people who are allowing you to listen in on what they’re saying while they talk about stuff that you’re interested. And I love that the idea that Dramas over Flowers – I love this name so much!

[Laughter]

Sarah: I love it so much! It connects people to talk about something that has a lot of fans, but as noted, it’s most often discussed by specific groups of fans. I am really honored to have been an influence on someone’s learning process, so thank you so much for this email! It has completely made my week, and congratulations on making podcast editing something you do as a profession. That is so dope.

Amanda: I’m so happy she mentioned Dramabeans, because before I started watching K-dramas I didn’t know where to watch them, so I would just read the reviews and the synopses of episodes on Dramabeans?

[Laughter]

Amanda: Because it’s like, I don’t know where I can watch these, but I’m interested!

Sarah: Yeah! Please tell me more!

Amanda: So I’m very interested in, in listening to the podcast, and as someone who casually watches K-dramas, I think I’m going to be, like, stepping up my watching more, because my brother just moved to South Korea –

Sarah: Yay!

Amanda: – and which, he will be there for the next year, and I would so love to visit him, and I’m hoping that, like, increasing my K-drama watching, that I can pick up some words and phrases, and I’m sure I’ll throw some Duolingo in there and – who knows?

Sarah: Heck yeah!

Amanda: Yeah, I’m excited.

Sarah: When do you get to go visit?

Amanda: We don’t know yet! He – [laughs] – I feel so bad for him, because he got there Sunday morning South Korea time, and he was already at work Monday.

Sarah: Oh dude, the military does not mess around.

Amanda: No, and we’ve been using, like, Facebook Messenger to talk because he can’t, like, text with his new phone plan, and there’s a thirteen-hour time difference, so he was sending me messages at noon my time, which was like 1 a.m. his time, I think, and I’m like, what the hell are you doing messaging me? And he’s like, I have really bad jetlag, and I’m like, well, stop it! Go back to bed!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: So I haven’t heard much about his initial thoughts and experiences, ‘cause I’m sure he’s just kind of getting used to the job and, like, getting his footing and, and that sort of thing –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – but once he looks at his time, ‘cause he saved up a bunch of time when he was stationed in Texas, we will try to narrow down a visiting date. I love traveling with my brother, and I’m so glad that he also loves traveling. Our parents are of the, if we can’t drive to it, we’re not going to go see it, sort of thing. My mom doesn’t fly, so it’s just my brother and I. And he’s traveled before. He’s been to Spain. He did, like, a, like, he taught English in Spain, so yeah. That kid loves to travel.

Sarah: And you travel well together because enough of your interests overlap.

Amanda: And he’s cool with, like, when we went to Montreal for Christmas, it was like negative 20 with the wind chill, and my brother doesn’t own a scarf, so I had to bring him a scarf. Like, but he wanted to go out and, like, take photos, and I’m just like, you know what, you do that. I’m cold, and I’m tired, so I’m going to go sit in a café and drink hot chocolate. Goodbye. So – [laughs] – we’re fine, like, separating for a little bit.

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: But yeah, I would say we, we do travel well together, except for the time, you know – he’s younger. I’m thirty, he is twenty-five, and we were in St. Louis, and he’s like, yeah, let’s go out and rage! And, like, I don’t know if I can rage anymore, Zack. And we went to a Mexican restaurant –

[Laughter]

Sarah: You need a shirt that says Too Old for Raging.

Amanda: Too Old to Rage! We went to a Mexican restaurant, and we were going to hit up this, like, international beer bar afterwards –

Sarah: Oh God.

Amanda: – and while we were sitting down, we were going to get, like, margaritas, and my brother’s like, why don’t we just get a pitcher of margaritas?

Sarah: Oh dear God!

Amanda: So we got a pitcher of margaritas –

Sarah: Oh no.

Amanda: – and pretty much had to, like, choke down the last of it, and we had a lot of Mexican food, and we stood up, and we start walking to the bar, and I’m like, Zack, I need to, give me a minute; we’ve got to stop. And next thing I know, I’m, like, holding onto some dude’s Ford F-150 parked on the side of the road and just puking into this, like, decorative planter –

Sarah: Oh my gosh.

Amanda: – in, like, downtown St. Louis. [Laughs] And my lovely brother’s, like, rubbing my back and taking my scarf off so I don’t puke on my scarf, and he’s like, there, just let it out. Just let –

Sarah: Aw!

Amanda: And then he escorts me back to the Airbnb, and he’s like, we’ll go out to a bar tomorrow night. I’m like, ugh, fine. It was a humbling experience – [laughs] – with my brother. I never wanted him to see me like that.

Sarah: I love that he’s, like, holding you while you puke, though. Like, that’s such a seriously adorable brother-sister relationship.

Amanda: He’s a great brother. I don’t mean to brag, but he is the best brother.

Sarah: Aw!

Amanda: He is.

Sarah: That’s so cute!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: All right.

Amanda: Last email.

Sarah: You ready for the last one? This one is addressed to both of us –

Amanda: So I’ll read it.

Sarah: – and I think, I think you inspired some of this question, so I think you should read it.

Amanda: Okay.

Dear Sarah and Amanda:

I wanted to ask this question anonymously, so I didn’t want to use the voicemail, but I nearly called and left this message a bunch of times, so I figured I should write to you both already.

Amanda, you’ve been pretty public about being bisexual, and I wanted to ask – if it’s not too intrusive – if romance novels helped you make that realization? I ask because I think romances have clued me into the fact that I think I’m demi-sexual.

Originally I thought I was just prudish or weird because I didn’t like romances where the sex happens right away, without the characters really knowing each other or having any kind of friendship or emotional connection first. Like, when two people are horny and then they hook up, and THEN they figure out they want to hook up repeatedly with each other because of feelings or reasons or both – I really dislike that in a romance.

Sarah: [Laughs] I know exactly what kind of books this person means, and I’m like, yes! Yes, that’s exactly the perfect way to describe it!

Amanda:

I love friends to lovers, and enemies to lovers, and any book where there’s something between the characters before they have sex.

But then I found definitions of demi-sexuality and realized that they fit me, my own history of attraction, but also my dislike and aversion of sex-first, emotions-later romances. I’m still figuring myself out, or will be probably forever, but I wanted to ask you about this, because since you’re romance experts, maybe I’m not the only one?

Signed-Anonymous

Sarah: Okay, so first of all, you’re never the only one –

Amanda: No.

Sarah: – not ever, and thank you for trusting us with your email and with your question. In case anyone who is listening is not familiar with demisexuality I will link to a definition of demisexual, but a demisexual person is, according to the wiki of asexuality, someone who does not experience sexual attraction to another person unless or until they have formed an emotional connection with that person. It’s more commonly seen in, but not confined to, romantic relationships. The term comes from the orientation being halfway between sexual and asexual, but it doesn’t mean that they have incomplete or half sexuality, nor does it mean that sexual attraction without emotional connection is required for a complete sexuality. There’s a lot of different terms for sexualities that, for me, I didn’t know about until very recently, and I think it’s amazing that there are young people right now growing up and they have words for this. Like, it sounds like this person was reading romance and was like, yes, this is what I like, and then found the word for it. That is, like, the best feeling.

Now, obviously, Anonymous, I can’t tell you about your own sexuality, but I think that recognizing yourself and how you react to sexuality in romance fiction is as powerful and as valid as any other way you might learn about yourself. So many different readers have learned about sex in general from romance – which has its upsides and downsides – and they’ve understood that sex is supposed to be pleasurable for everyone because of romance, so recognizing what you personally want or require in order to feel a sexual retraction – retraction; sexual retraction – in order to feel sexual attraction seems just as likely as anything else. In other words, I think you’re normal and you’re learning important things about yourself from the books you enjoy. You are definitely not alone, and I’m really honored that you trusted us to ask this question.

Amanda: So before I get into asking the question, I want to talk about my own bisexuality a little bit because language is always evolving.

Sarah: What?!

Amanda: I know! So I had a lovely conversation on Twitter with @DreamingReviews. I highly recommend you follow them. They have some really great insight into romance publishing and what it means for queer communities and trans communities and non-binary communities, so if you’re into those discussions, please follow them. But there is this, not necessarily stigma, but with bisexuality, there are people who define it as attraction to both genders, as in two genders, while there are other people who see bisexuality as kind of like all-inclusive or attracted to all genders, and I’m the latter. I’m the, the all-inclusive, all-expenses-paid bisexuality – [laughs] – because I don’t feel like the pansexual label fits me, but, you know, language is evolving; maybe I’ll change my mind. But that’s, that’s where we stand in my definition of my own sexuality.

Before romance I think I had kind of an inkling of, that I was attracted more, or I was attracted to more than just men or people who identify as men, so that, that, like, seed was already planted, no pun intended.

[Laughter]

Sarah: It’s impossible to talk about this without puns for days.

Amanda: But I think romance has been a really lovely tool in increasing my communication in terms of my sexuality when talking with my intimate partners, so it’s kind of a, a yes-and-no answer, whereas I don’t think it was a catalyst to me realizing I was bisexual, but it, it has definitely given me a deeper understanding of sexuality, of intimacy, and, you know, how it relates to my own, like, body autonomy.

Sarah: The thing about romance is that it allows you to explore sexuality in the privacy of your own imagination, and so you can read about pansexuality and multiple partners; you can read about lesbian relationships; you can read about people who are asexual. You can explore the intimacy of sexuality in all of its different in-, incarnations through the privacy of your own imagination, and I think that is deeply powerful. I think it’s really important for people to be able to do that, because there aren’t a lot of other places where you can learn about sexuality in a way that allows you the privacy and the time to ask, does this fit how I see the world? Does this fit how I interact with the world?

So Amanda –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Whatcha reading?

Amanda: [Laughs] So I am reading Yours Until Dawn by Teresa Medeiros.

Sarah: Oh, that is some Old School gloriousness.

Amanda: I know! Someone mentioned it on a Books on Sale post in the comments. It was on sale; it was $1.99. I didn’t buy it then because this book is fifteen years old and it’s historical, and I’m automatically, like, wary when those two things align. [Laughs] Because, you know, some things don’t age well, so I was worried.

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: Especially given that the hero is blind in this one. I, I still, I haven’t finished it yet; I’m still worried that, like, some magical thing will happen and will fix the hero’s blindness, which I hope doesn’t happen. But this is literally a Beauty and the Beast story, like –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – Disney’s Beauty and the Beast.

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: There’s a big house. There are adorable meddling servants.

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: There’s a scene where he gives the heroine a beautiful dress. They dance in a ballroom. Like – [laughs] – it is legit Beauty and the Beast –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – and I’m really enjoying it.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: I’m really charmed by it. So far, there’s obviously, like, a secret the heroine is keeping, and I don’t know what it is yet, so I’m excited to learn, but when I was in Austin, Texas, for a wedding, there’s this amazing string of used bookstores called Half Price Books, and I saw this in the romance section, and it was like three dollars, and like, you know what? Why not? I’ve spent more on worse books. So – [laughs] –

Sarah: Heck yeah!

Amanda: – three bucks, I’ll take it. And so far, I’m like halfway through it. It’s been a delight! I’m really enjoying it!

Sarah: Aw!

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: I have been picking up and putting down books, and it’s been so frustrating, and then I started –

Amanda: As part of your weightlifting?

Sarah: Yes. It’s weightlifting.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I don’t know if you know this, but e-books weigh a lot. I started reading in a book that’s coming out at the end of May. It is a contemporary lesbian romance called New Ink on Life. It’s really interesting. It’s alternating deep point of view, and once I started reading it I had a really, really difficult time putting it down and not reading, going to sleep? And I need to sleep! I have a cold. One of the women is the owner of a, of a tattoo parlor, and she is deeply talented, and she is just a raging rage monster. She’s mad.

Amanda: She’s not Too Old to Rage.

Sarah: No! She is two thousand percent made of rage! She is mad about stuff, and she’s got a lot to be mad at, but she’s just grumpy. Like, I know that there’s a, an archetype or a character type in lesbian romances where there’s an ice queen? She’s a rage queen. She’s mad about a lot of things. And she has a new apprentice who has come to her shop through her former apprentice, who has since died, and this woman is, like, petite and has little sweaters and is super quiet and, and is very timid, and the, the woman is just like – her name’s MJ – she’s like, what am I going to do with this person? This person is ridiculous; I’m going to eat them for lunch. Like, this is not enough. I cannot handle this – you know, I can’t care for this level of person; I’ve got other shit to deal with. But it turns out that Carrie has a lot of knowledge that she can share with – or excuse me, Cassie – has a lot of knowledge and expertise that she can share to help MJ and the tattoo parlor and the business if MJ will listen to her, ‘cause like I said, rage queen. They are really, really fun to read about, ‘cause it’s alternating deep point of view. I’m having a really hard time not reading this all the time, and I have things to do, so I can’t read it all the time –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – but I’m so enjoying it. My other question, which I didn’t prepare you for –

Amanda: Oh boy.

Sarah: What lipsticks have you bought that you are digging lately? ‘cause you are real good at picking lipsticks.

Amanda: Oh my God. So one of my favorites – let me make sure; I’ve got to type the name. And I don’t know if you can get it anymore, because it was like a limited release? Yeah, I don’t think you can get it anymore! Sorry, guys! But it’s Too Faced Gingerbread Girl. It’s a, a matte lipstick. It’s kind of this, like, deep terra cotta shade, and I love it.

Sarah: Ooh!

Amanda: And it stays on. There’s no transfer. It’s really nice!

Sarah: Really!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Is it like a, is it like, do you put it on with a brush, or is it a tube?

Amanda: No, it has a, it has a dough foot applicator, so, like, the cap has, like, a little applicator in it that you put it on.

And then there’s another one that I really love. It’s not a liquid lipstick, which I usually gravitate towards, but – let me find it. So it’s from ColourPop, and I, if you want, like, great affordable lipstick or great affordable makeup in general, ColourPop –

Sarah: Uh-huh?

Amanda: – has some amazing products. Like, their lipsticks are like seven dollars. You can get, like, an eyeshadow palette for like sixteen bucks, and it’s all, like, really great quality stuff.

Sarah: Ooh!

Amanda: Okay, yeah, the, so I have their matte Lux Lipstick in the shade Money Moves? [Laughs]

Sarah: What a great name!

Amanda: And the formula’s, like, nice and creamy, and yeah, I just really –

Sarah: It’s like a terra cotta sort of muted kind of –

Amanda: Yeah! I mean, it’s really great for just, like –

Sarah: – color.

Amanda: The, I would say the Gingerbread Girl is more dramatic and, like, Money Moves is like a good, like, everyday casual –

Sarah: There are two of, or there are packages of Gingerbread Girl –

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: – on eBay, new in box. So you can still get it –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – if you’re desperate to grab yourself a package.

Amanda: And I think Sephora has – so Ulta carried the Gingerbread Girl color, and Sephora had the, like, limited Gingerbread Boy or Gingerbread Man, but I don’t have that one. But those are the two lipsticks that I love –

Sarah: Ooh!

Amanda: – and I highly recommend ColourPop. They have, they just launched a Disney Villains-inspired collection? Yeah.

Sarah: Oh shit.

Amanda: Yeah, and they did, like, a Disney princesses one, but yeah, I swear by ColourPop. The only downside is, is that you can mainly get their products online. There might be, either Sephora or Ulta might have a few collections, but most of the stuff, you have to buy online, so you can’t really like swatch it in store or, you know, they have foundation, so it might be hard to do like a color match or, or whatever, but for lipsticks, I highly recommend ColourPop in general.

Sarah: There is a makeup brand. It is, it is Canadian, and it is run by an Indigenous Canadian. It’s called Cheekbone Beauty, but they are on Instagram. I will give you a link. They have some of – first of all, their models are absolutely stunning – but they have really interesting lip palettes, so I thought I would share that with you. Yeah, they have a color that is like a plum, and it’s called Cindy. It’s like a, they call it a brown pink? It’s gorgeous.

Amanda: I gravitate towards more like plum or, like, berry colors or, like, reds. I try to get into, like, nudes –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – but I feel like it just blends my lips into my face, and, like, that’s not a good look for me.

Sarah: [Laughs]

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. I have many things to tell you.

First, thank you again to Lauren, to Paroma, and to Anonymous. If you would like to send us an email, you can do so at [email protected], or you can leave us a message at 1-201-371-3272, especially if you leave a message and tell me a bad joke.

Now, I have made some Too Old to Rage T-shirts, so if you would like to have a shirt that says like, you, like us, are Too Old to Rage, I will have a link in the show notes for this episode at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

Now, I would like to know, what are your hidden gems in romance that you wish more people knew about? What lipstick is rocking your world? And is there a recommendation that you think we should know about that you want to tell us about? Please get in touch: [email protected] or Amanda or [email protected]. Either way, we love to hear from you.

You can find Amanda at Smart Bitches, and she’s on Twitter @_ImAnAdult and on Instagram at the same name, but if you would like to request a recommendation, she is the person who masterminds the Smart Bitches Instagram, and she makes the recommendations on Rec It Wednesday. Easy to remember, right?

This podcast episode is being brought to you by Kensington Books and by Never Deny a Duke by Madeline Hunter. The last Decadent Duke is about to meet his match in New York Times bestselling author Madeline Hunter’s fabulous series finale in Never Deny a Duke. Fighting to restore her family’s lands, fiery Scottish lass Davina MacCallum comes up against a formidable foe in the Duke of Brentworth, who refuses to restore the disputed property. As Davina and Brentworth search for proof of her claims, can they deny the proof that love is blossoming between them as well? A classic and witty battle of wills ensues, as only Madeline Hunter can deliver. Never Deny a Duke is on sale now wherever books are sold and at kensingtonbooks.com.

This week’s transcript will be hand-compiled by garlicknitter – thank you, garlicknitter! – and is being brought to you by Radish. Discover a world where storytelling is reimagined with Radish, an app containing thousands of romance stories from bestselling authors like Lisa Renee Jones, Kelley Armstrong, Julie Kenner, and Sylvia Day, all in bite-size chapters, perfect to read on your morning commute, your lunch break, or before bed. You can enjoy epic romances full of everything from billionaire bosses and tattooed bad boys to sexy vampires and paranormal shifters. You can join live chat rooms and interact with authors and fellow readers who love the same stories that you do. You can explore a fresh collection of original stories written by some of daytime TV’s top Emmy-winning writers, bingeable, fast-paced stories you will not find anywhere else. Radish has it all. You can download the app in Google Play or the Apple Store for free today and begin your adventure on Radish.

We have a podcast Patreon, and if you support the Patreon, you are making a pledge starting at one dollar a month, which is not a lot of dollars. You’re saying that what we do has value, and if you have already done so, thank you. You are helping me make sure that every episode is accessible to everyone, and you keep the show going every week. Have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches to see the tiers and reward levels, different pledge levels, and thank you in advance for considering.

The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This is from Caravan Palace. They are French, and the title of this track is also French, so if I screw up the pronunciation, please know that I have practiced. This track is called “Je M’amuse.” You can find their two-album set with Caravan Palace and Panic at Amazon, iTunes, or wherever you buy your funky music.

Coming up on Smart Bitches this week, we have Hide Your Wallet, Part Two, which is where we highlight books that we learned about recently that we want to make sure that you don’t miss. We have a very emotional post from Aarya Marsden about her older sister, who turned her into a romance reader, so bring some tissues ‘cause it’s adorable. Sunday, we have a new edition of Romance Wanderlust from Carrie that includes some gorgeous wedding locations that benefit charities. Plus, we have a bunch of reviews, both short and long, Help a Bitch Out, Caption That Cover, and of course Books on Sale every day. I hope that you will stop by and hang out with us.

I will have links to all of the things that we discussed, including links to some of the lip colors that Amanda recommended, and of course links to every book we mentioned so you can go find them.

And now it is time for our terrible joke. I always end with a terrible joke, and this one is so bad I adore it. Are you ready?

What happens if you throw a Finnish soldier overboard?

Give up? What happens if you throw a Finnish soldier overboard?

Helsinki.

[Laughs] Helsinki! So dumb, I love it so much! That is from Bakedschwarzenbach on Reddit. Thank you, person; you are awesome! Helsinki! [Laughs more] I really have been walking up to family members going, Helsinki, and they just sort of roll their eyes and groan and walk away; it’s great!

So on behalf of Amanda and myself – oh, I love that joke! [Still laughing] – we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

[amusing music]