308. Sarah and Amanda are Terrible at Watching TV (But We Talk About it Anyway)

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 308 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. With me today is Amanda, and we are talking about how terrible we are at watching television. Amanda tweeted recently that she’s terrible at watching TV, which is something that I’ve said about myself many, many times, and when I asked her about it, we started down a very long conversational route about series, storytelling, trusting the storyteller, and fearing enjoyment. We talk about investing time, energy, empathy, and attention in TV shows and watching series with another person who then holds us accountable. We also touch on the difficulties in selecting things to enjoy when there is so much to choose from.

I also try to find the answers to some very crucial questions, including: Why does Amanda often stop watching and reading series she is really enjoying, sometimes in the middle, without finishing? I know some of you just broke out in hives at the idea. Why is watching a movie easier than beginning a series, in books or in television? What makes a viewer or reader fear the end of a series? What is it about hype that’s a turn-off? How much did Lost screw up Amanda’s ability to enjoy a TV series? And eventually we figure out what shows scarred us for life as romance readers in terms of trusting the storyteller and also where our trope catnips and trope destroyers come from.

Please note, I spoil the heck out of the 1987 Beauty and the Beast television show. I figure it’s been thirty years – wow, I’m old – but just in case you’d ever thought, maybe I’ll watch it; it’s on DVD, when I start talking about the source of all my catnip, just stop listening, ‘cause I’m going to spoil everything about that show because that show not only created my catnip but also destroyed my faith in, in network television, I’m sorry to say.

We want to know, though, if you like TV shows and which ones you are always going to keep up with. We want to know if being a romance reader affects how you see television series or book series or your interest in sticking with either medium. What shows have scarred you for life? We’re terribly nosy, but you can email us at [email protected], or you can tweet us, tweet at us. I’m @SmartBitches, and Amanda is @_ImAnAdult.

Now, would you like to come hang out with me and record a future episode? If you are going to be at Romance Writers of America national convention in Denver, grab yourself a pen and write this down: Tower Court B, Friday, July 20th, at 4:40 p.m. Bring your own wine to the Tower Court, and we will be playing Cards Against Romance Tropes, and I will be recording it, because, well, it promises to be hilarious. We’re going to need people to volunteer, and we’re going to need people to vote, and we’re going to need people to just be, well, somewhat raucous, so please come and join us! You can RSVP at bit.ly/RWALiveShow, and I will have a link to everything you need to know at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast. I hope you can join us Friday, July 20th, 4:40 p.m., Tower Court B of the Sheraton Downtown Denver during Romance Writers of America. Come play! It’ll be so much fun!

This episode is brought to you by Read Bliss. Are you looking for royal romance recommendations? The top three qualities of a great heroine? How about five unforgettable, uplifting reads? You can find all of those and more at readbliss.com, your video destination for all things romance and reading. Subscribe to Read Bliss on YouTube for book recommendations, author spotlights, and more from romance novel experts and readers just like you. Visit readbliss.com and check out Read Bliss on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Read Bliss: Watch, read, love.

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The music you are listening to will be explained in full at the end of the show, but it was provided by Sassy Outwater, as usual. And at the end of the show, I will also have an absolutely terrible joke, and I know how many of you like the bad jokes because, well, you email me more! It’s so great! So thank you for that.

All right, enough intro! By the way, intro and outro are totally words. On with the podcast with me and Amanda talking about television.

[music]

Sarah: So you tweeted recently that you are bad at watching TV, and I saw this tweet, and I was like, oh my God, I’m not the only one. How have we not talked about this before? Or have we, and I just forgot?

Amanda: I think maybe we’ve touched on it. I know I’ve mentioned before that I listen to background noise while I’m reading or doing something else, and that’s usually, like, mindless, trashy TV? [Laughs] Like, I work from home, and of course when you work from home, daytime TV is, like, court shows and, like, Maury and, like, Jerry Springer.

Sarah: Bleah.

Amanda: So really thoughtless, mindless television. So, like, I’ll just have Judge Judy hanging out with me.

Sarah: Oh my God! I could never! I’m fascinated by the fact that this is a thing you can do, because I would be just oh so miserable.

Amanda: [Laughs] But you know, actual – I wouldn’t say actual television; that’s kind of insulting – but TV that requires some thought or, like, you know, like, primetime television, HBO shows, that sort of stuff? It’s so hard for me to just sit down and devote my attention to it, or if I do, I’ll watch a few episodes and then never watch an episode again. So –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: – yeah, it’s weird. [Laughs]

Sarah: So why do you, what, what makes you stop watching a show?

Amanda: Well, it’s hard! It’s hard to pinpoint what makes me stop watching, and when I was thinking about this, I really had to, like, think about it, and it brought up some things that I’m like, this might be kind of concerning once we think about it.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: It’s weird, because I do this with books too. If I’m really enjoying a show, it will scare me off from – [laughs] – from continuing it? There’s, like, a weird, like, I’m afraid of commitment with things that bring me happiness!

Sarah: Uhhh, yeah?

Amanda: But that’s like, it doesn’t translate into my life? Like, I have no problem committing to a relationship, but shows that I’m really enjoying or books that I’m really enjoying, once I start, like, really wanting to watch it or really wanting to read it, I’m like, okay, and, like, it makes me nervous, ‘cause I’m always afraid, like, someone will fuck up my enjoyment in the book or in the show, and that’ll be it. Like, my good feelings I’ve been having about this thing will be ruined.

Sarah: Ooh! What – has this happened, or is this just a thing that you think is going to happen?

Amanda: [Laughs] I can’t even pinpoint a thing that, like, has created this fear in me. I can’t remember! I mean, I was forced to watch Lost by an ex-boyfriend who really loved it, and that payoff was not worth it.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: But I wasn’t super into the show. Yeah, there’s nothing that I can remember. Like, I really loved the King’s Chronic-, I think it’s Kingmaker’s, Kingmaker Chronicles by Amanda Bouchet? Bouchette?

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Amanda: I loved the first book and, like, trying to get myself into reading the second book was so hard! Because I loved the first book so much, and with the series – I feel like everyone kind of experiences this, or even with movies, like a sequel, like, is the sequel going to ruin my fond feelings that I had for the first book? Is, like, the director or the author going to take this in a way that kind of, I don’t know, overshadows that, like, nostalgia and Good Book Noises that I’ve had for these characters when I first read them? Does that make sense?

Sarah: Maybe it’s not necessarily the TV show or the book that’s the problem. It’s the series; the fact that it is a series is the problem.

Amanda: Yeah! Like, I have no problem sitting down and watching a movie, ‘cause it’s, like, a quick ninety minutes; that’s fine. But a TV show takes some commitment to, like, stick with, watch it every week, or binge it if you prefer to watch it on Netflix. Like, my boyfriend won’t watch a show, for the most part won’t watch a show until it’s already out, so he can just watch it in one go and not have to deal with, like, a cliffhanger – wait until next week to find what happens.

Sarah: Yeah, people who do that with books get, get a lot of side-eye from some authors and readers, because if you don’t watch it when it’s, when it’s new, if you don’t consume it when it’s being paid attention to by the people who make such decisions, you might not have a full series when you’re done, and then you have, and then you have things like Amazon and Netflix, who just drop the whole series.

Amanda: Yes. I remember –

Sarah: Like, one season all at once.

Amanda: Yeah. Netflix does it a lot. [Laughs] I remember we were, we were watching the Super Bowl, and they showed this trailer for, like, this Cloverfield show, I think? I don’t remember the name of it, but the woman who’s in A Wrinkle in Time, and she was in “San Junipero”, she’s beautiful – can’t remember her name –

Sarah: Gugu Mbatha-Raw?

Amanda: Yes! She’s in the series, and they showed the trailer for the series at the Super Bowl, and at the end it’s like, now on Netflix! So, like, they just dropped a show in the middle of the Super Bowl and announced it via a Super Bowl commercial. But, yeah, Netflix does that pretty much with every show they have. They just put the whole thing out at once, which –

Sarah: Does that make it more likely for you to watch it?

Amanda: I don’t think so, because I was – so Nailed It I loved, but it was only, like, six episodes. It’s fine.

Sarah: Yeah, it was not a long commitment to watch it.

Amanda: Yeah! And the episodes go by really quickly, and I don’t really require much, like, thought? Like, I don’t have to really keep up from episode to episode, plot threads, or characters or whatever. But I was watching this, I, I guess it’s called, like, Welsh noir –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – series called Hinterland?

Sarah: Huh?

Amanda: And it’s amazing! And I probably wat-, there are three seasons on Netflix. There’s maybe only four, five episodes in a season, but each episode is about an hour and a half.

Sarah: Oy! That’s like a movie!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Each one is a movie!

Amanda: Yeah, I know. So I blazed through the first season and a half –

Sarah: Whoa.

Amanda: – probably like in a week or so.

Sarah: Whoa!

Amanda: I was like, my boyfriend would come over, I would just sit him in front of the Xbox – [laughs] – and then I would just crawl into bed –

Sarah: Oh my goodness.

Amanda: – with my laptop and just watch this. But probably around the halfway point, I like, I was really loving it, but I just stopped! I haven’t picked it back up. There’s no real reason why I haven’t picked it back up. All of the episodes are there. And it wasn’t like I stopped enjoying the show. It wasn’t like anything happened. But, like – [laughs] – I just, I just stopped! I don’t know why, and I’m, maybe I tell myself I’ll finish it eventually, but who knows? I don’t know.

Sarah: Is the feeling that you get about picking up the show similar to the feeling that you get when you look at book two of a series that you really liked? When you really liked book one?

Amanda: I think so.

Sarah: Yeah?

Amanda: Yeah, I think so. And then there’s always that, I wouldn’t say, like, fear, but, like, sadness that it’s going to end too, because, like, if you stop a book in the middle, let’s say – I’m just using it as an example – you kind of have, like, this lovely moment in time that you can preserve for the hero and heroine. [Laughs] You don’t have to go through any of, like, the extra, like, you know, two-thirds or one-third of the book where, like, shit hits the fan and everyone’s put through the wringer. So with a show, like, if you stop it at a good point, you can be like, oh, everything’s fine! I don’t have to worry about anything! Things can just end here, and my imagination is safe!

Sarah: It really sounds like the problem is that you don’t want the series or the story to go in a direction that you don’t like when you’ve already started liking it and you’re afraid of –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – the disappointment that will, that you think may be inevitable, that if you continue with the series and it’s not complete, the more you enjoy it, the more you fear being let down.

Amanda: Yes. I – [laughs].

Sarah: So you, so clearly, Lost has fucked you up for the rest of your life.

Amanda: And I didn’t even enjoy Lost that much either. [Laughs]

Sarah: This is all Lost’s fault, isn’t it?

Amanda: God damn it, J. J. Abrams!

Sarah: [Laughs] This is –

Amanda: I’m going to write him an angry note.

Sarah: – this is entirely due to Lost ending in a way that you found so unsatisfying.

Amanda: I should feel it, I feel like I should give you my therapist’s co-pay for this week, Sarah.

[Laughter]

Sarah: No. [Laughs] I am not qualified for such things.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: One of the things that grabbed me about your tweet was that I’m terrible at watching television, and I’m really, really bad at starting new shows and finishing shows, but I’ve talked about this many, many times, because I realized I don’t trust television writers. Because I read books and because I read novels and because I read – I, and I’m, and I’m terrible at series in books just as much as I am terrible at a series on television. I, I want to know that the person or persons creating the story knows how it’s going to end, and there won’t be any betrayal of character or, and there won’t be any stupid plot points just to keep going because, hot damn, syndication’s pretty great! And I totally understand! You want syndication! Make that money! Cut your check! I want to know that the writer knows where they are going, and when I begin to think that the writer doesn’t know where they’re going, or I don’t trust the direction that they’re going, I tap out, and I’m like, nope, I’m done. I’m going to finish this in my head, and it’s going to be great. This is horrible. Like, I’m much happier for my own decisions, but there is a massive amount of television that Adam will watch on the treadmill, and I already know that there’s some things that there’s no way in hell I could watch? Like, I watch Game of Thrones through very selective GIF sets involving dragons. As far as I am concerned, that show is about a woman with white hair who has pet dragons, and it’s great.

Amanda: [Laughs] I stopped watching it a few seasons ago, and when it comes back on, like, I’ll just skim through the recaps, or my roommate watches it, and I’ll have her fill me in, and that’s good enough for me.

Sarah: I can’t, I cannot do that much violence. There is no way. Like, Adam was like, I’m, I’m not even going to watch it when you’re downstairs with the, with your glasses off, when I can’t even see the TV, it’s not even in focus; there’s no way. And there’s a bunch of shows that he watches where I’m just like – [sighs] – I can’t even handle the terrible, stupid soundtrack tension song. Like, you know what a TV, you know what I’m talking about? Like, it’s a very tense moment in a superhero show; let’s play F-sharp on a violin for three minutes! EEEEEEEEEEEEEE-dee-di-dee-dee –

Amanda: I loved the soundtrack for Hinterland because it’s all just, like, varying tensions of, like, string sets. That’s all it is, and it’s –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: creepy.

Sarah: That would kill me. That would kill me! Kill me slowly. It would be bad, very, very bad. I think that part, for me, part of the problem, like I said, is not trusting that the end is a known idea. You know, that the end is – not even in sight; it doesn’t have to be in sight. I just have to trust that someone who is creating this knows where they’re going. And this is probably largely due to the fact that I read so much romance, because I know no matter how bad it gets in the book, it’s going to end satisfactorily, or if it doesn’t, I have, I have this website where I can talk about it. I also don’t have an hour and a half to two hours to pay attention to a movie. Like, it’s rare for me to do that. The last movie that I saw – I hardly ever watch movies in my house, and the last movie I saw in the theater was A Wrinkle in Time because my younger son wanted to go see it with me so badly, and we had the best time, but I had, like, reserved the block of time on my calendar; we had talked about it. Watching the movie was actually secondary to going to see the movie with my son; like, that was the event. Other than that, I never watch movies in my house. And I also am not like you: I can’t have people talking while I’m working; I can’t have the TV on; I can’t have the, the background noise of the television. Like, I cannot. The TV is never on when I’m home by myself. Adam was away this weekend? I don’t think I turned on the television at all. Like, it’s not a thing I do.

The other thing with series TV, like sit-coms and things that are on television: if it’s a mystery, it’s going to be super violent, and usually against women. Like, I love Miss Fisher; I have to skip the ones where women meet violent ends. It’s really hard? I would really like to watch Miss Fisher’s edit, an edited Miss Fisher where it’s just her talking to people, wearing different outfits.

Amanda: [Laughs] I’m sure there’s a compilation on YouTube somewhere.

Sarah: Oh, I’m sure there is – Miss Fisher having outfits. But then the other thing that I don’t like, especially about sit-coms, is that a lot of the humor is, is very narrow. It’s a very narrow definition of what’s considered funny, and a lot of it relies on very toxic, racist, and sexist jokes that I don’t find funny, so I’m like, this is not enjoyable. There are three total shows that aren’t, like, nonfiction cooking shows that I genuinely like, one of them being Brooklyn Nine-Nine, and even then, I wait until we have, like, three so that we can watch them in one evening, and then I can just laugh my ass off and have, and then, like, talk about it for the rest of the week. Otherwise, I’m just, I’m just not interested. And the other thing about Brooklyn Nine-Nine, now that I think about it, is that this, the character development is largely consistent. If something happens in an episode, two episodes later, that ep-, that thing is still true. It’s not – there’s a word for this, when you have episodes that are individual and they don’t change anything? They’re, they’re capsules, I think is what it’s called?

Amanda: Sure! That sounds right.

Sarah: Like, a capsule episode, and then there’s con- –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – yeah, then there’s continuity. I’m making shit up. There’s continuity. When the continuity develops in a way that I find respectful and interesting, I am so on board. Otherwise, I’m terrible at watching TV because I, I, I am a dis- – this is so not my character! – I am a distrustful person who doesn’t like anyone else’s writing.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I’m terrible! Meanwhile, you are worried that the thing that you enjoy will ultimately disappoint you.

Amanda: Which is also, I think, ties into being, like, a distrustful – like, we don’t trust where, you know, this –

Sarah: We’re horrible humans! What are we going to do? This is terrible!

Amanda: [Laughs] Well –

Sarah: We’ve got to fix this!

Amanda: So I’m a – [laughs] – I’m a multitasker, and so it really, I have a hard time devoting my attention to a singular thing.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. I once gave –

Amanda: This is not a –

Sarah: I once gave a presentation at a tech conference – I think it was Tools of Change – and I talked about double-dipping when screens are concerned, and this was like a new thing, a new thing that Nielsen was asking, so you know this was a while back. How many people watch television with a device in their hand that they are actively using?

Amanda: Yes. I always have my computer out, and usually the TV on. And this is not a reflection on you –

Sarah: Okay.

Amanda: – Sarah, but I always feel like there’s something that I could be doing. Like, I could be getting the Books on Sale ready for tomorrow –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – I could be scheduling reviews in advance; I could, you know, just be doing stuff to help me through the week a little better. And it, it stinks that the shows that I really enjoy really need my attention. Like, I love watching K-dramas, but they require subtitles, because I don’t speak Korean. So –

Sarah: Yes, you have to read the screen!

Amanda: – I have to read, and then Westworld just came back. And that show has its own problems, but I’m just so addicted to the weird, like, mindfuckery of that show, and, you know, so far this season is all about the, the women hosts just killing people –

Sarah: Yep. Killing each other dead.

Amanda: – which I’m in-, which I’m into. But that –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – you have to, like, concentrate!

Sarah: I like it when they’re dead!

Amanda: [Laughs] You have to concentrate on a show like that! So it’s tough, because the things that I would actually want to sit down and enjoy, it’s hard, I have a hard time sitting down and enjoying something. It works best when I’m actively watching a show with someone else? So my boyfriend and I will watch a, a TV series, and it’s usually him prompting this. And it’s hard for me to finally agree to it, not that I don’t enjoy watching TV with him, but, like, I have to sit still and watch something! We’ve watched seasons one and two of Fargo, which have been really good. I watched the enti-, I’ve caught up on The Good Place, and because –

Sarah: Is that good? Have you enjoyed it?

Amanda: Oh, it’s so good! You would like it, Sarah.

Sarah: I’m very curious about that one.

Amanda: It’s very smart. Everyone’s great. Very funny. I highly recommend it, and – so it works when I have, like, someone that can hold me accountable and – [laughs] – make me watch things.

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: But, yeah, we’ve packed away a few shows together. We watch Westworld together. So it’s easier for me to watch something when I have, like, a partner with me.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: But, yeah, it’s so – [laughs] – it’s so hard, and with so many things out, it goes for reading too. There are a gazillion things competing for your attention. Do I want to play –

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: – a video game? Do I want to cro- – I mean, some things you can do together, like cross-stitching and putting on something to watch or, or whatever, but there’s just so much stuff now that –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – it’s kind of like an embarrassment of riches –

Sarah: Yep!

Amanda: – where I don’t know what to do with myself? And because there are so many choices, I’m like, well, I guess I’ll just watch this YouTube video. [Laughs] Like, I’ll just –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – go to the lowest common denominator and forget everything else.

Sarah: Well, I think there’s a couple things that we have in common, but I want to go back to something you said earlier about how there’s always work you could be doing?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I have this same exact problem. I work at home, I live at home, sometimes I don’t put on shoes or real pants, and it’s great.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: The problem with working at home is that you can always be working. You should not always be working. At no time do I expect you to be working all the time. In fact, it’s better for your brain if you don’t? But that also means that you might want to cultivate a deliberate list of things that you like to do that aren’t work, because non-work makes your work brain better. So, like, I, I – ‘cause you know I love me a good list – I wrote down a list of things that I do, and I will stand in the middle of my first floor and be like, okay, you’re not working. You have the next, you know, forty-five minutes to do whatever you want. What on the list do you want to do? I mean, you could do work, but we’re not going to do work. What would you like to do? Am I, am I reading a book that I want to go read? Am I listening to an audiobook that I’m super into and want to go cross-stitch? Do I want to, you know, do something stupid? Do I want to go outside? Do I want to – do something that isn’t work. And I have to look, look at my list and pick something. So I do not want you to do nothing but work, because that’s not good for your work brain or your non-work brain. But the thing with sitting down to watch TV, I love my end-of-the-day couch time with Adam where we have dessert and we sit, and maybe we’re both on our phones, but we’re just, it’s quiet. Kids are in bed; we’re not, there’s no noise; we, we turn on, like, a cooking show and then half pay attention to whatever rep-, recipe is on screen that we, we’re not interested in making?

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: But it is really hard for me to be like, absolutely yes! Let me boot up my brain and engage all of my cognitive, creative energy in engaging with this piece of entertainment that I don’t fully trust. This is part of why I’m bad at watching television, because I, I’m like, oh, I have to do work to watch TV. I have to do mental labor. I’m tired at the end of the day. I don’t want to do mental labor. And that makes it sometimes hard to read, too, because reading a new book means that I’m doing all of that creative construction in my head as well. Hence, I end up rereading or, in my own deep embarrassment, staying up way too late reading my own damn book.

I am so embarrassed that I stayed up, like, two hours past my bedtime reading my own book. This is so embarrassing. And yet, I write my own catnip, and I did a good job! So – [laughs] – I stayed up really late! Like, oh, well, just finish it; it’s only a novella. Yeah, it’s a long-ass novella, and I wrote it! You’d think my own tricks wouldn’t work on me, but no! No, I forget everything.

So the idea of sitting down to, like, watch a thing and doing all that constructive work in my brain is not appealing, but I worry – this is so dumb – I worry when I start a new show that I’m really going to like it, and it’s going to be the only thing I want to do, and then it will be over and I can’t enjoy it anymore. Like, I’m really impossible to please!

Amanda: I fee-, I think I get the same feelings. Yeah.

Sarah: You have that same feeling?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: What’s wrong with us? We’re completely weird!

Amanda: Well, like, I think this also goes for pieces of media that get a lot of hype. Like, The Good Place, everyone was loving it, and I was worried that, like, I was like, yeah, I guess it looks okay. But I love Kristen Bell, and it looked really cute, and it looked really funny. It was one of those things where, like, man, I feel like I’m really going to like it, but I don’t know –

Sarah: [Laughs] I know!

Amanda: – if I want to really like it? [Laughs] You know what I mean? Not because, like, I’m ashamed or whatever, but, like, once you realize, like, uh-oh – [laughs]

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: Uh-oh, I’m really enjoying this, and you’re like, crap! Now I have to, like, watch a million episodes! [Laughs] And, like, something bad could happen!

Sarah: He’s a question that I just realized, ‘cause I was thinking about what I used to do when I was younger. So I’m a good bit older than you.

Amanda: [Laughs] Not that much, right?

Sarah: I’m thirteen years older than you. I’m forty-two.

Amanda: That’s, that’s not too bad.

Sarah: That’s not too bad, but think about the amount of technology that’s come out in thirteen years.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So when I was younger, when I was younger, we had cable, because my parents were like, oh, cable! We had a remote that was actually a long cord that attached to the cable box across the room, so it was this long-ass cord attached to what looked like a graphics calculator.

Amanda: That seems like a hazard.

Sarah: It was a hazard! I gave it, we had a very pale carpet, and yet you’d trip over it every time, even though you could see it, ‘cause of pale carpet, dark cord. Yeah, it was terrible. So I remember the channel order I would flip through to see what was on.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: And I, you didn’t, you didn’t get to, like, choose your programming. You watched what was on, or you sat down in front of the TV when it was on, or if you were me you figured out how to program the VCR, and then you had, like, nine video tapes of twelve straight hours of Scarecrow and Mrs. King that you would record in the middle of the night, ‘cause again, you’re the only person that knows how to program the VCR. Then you have twelve hours on multiple tapes, so more than thirty-six hours of Scarecrow and Mrs. King? Did I ever watch them? No.

Amanda: I did, I would record things on VHS. I remember when I was –

Sarah: But did you ever watch them? I never watched them!

Amanda: Oh, well, see, I watched them. I was, like, for a brief period of time – I can’t remember if I was in middle school or high school – I was in, into, like, professional wrestling? I was real –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – it was like, it’s like soap operas but with athletics.

Sarah: Soap operas in a onesie, yeah.

Amanda: Yeah. And so I had this TV, and it had a built-in VCR. I –

Sarah: Oh, I had one of those!

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: It was, like, nineteen inches, right?

Amanda: [Laughs] Yeah, pretty much!

Sarah: I had one of those.

Amanda: And for some reason, it wouldn’t record on the VHS if it was turned off, so at night I would set it up to tape and then put a bunch of blankets –

Sarah: No.

Amanda: – over my TV –

Sarah: No!

Amanda: – [laughs] – while I left it on!

Sarah: Amazing! I am thinking, though, that maybe part of the challenge for us – ‘cause I don’t know if you grew up at a time when it transitioned from, you watched what was on or you taped it at the time that it was on, but you couldn’t watch it later unless you had physically intervened between the, the TV schedule –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – and your schedule –

Amanda: I did grow up –

Sarah: – to a time when you can call up pretty much anything you want on demand at the time when you’re ready to watch it.

Amanda: Oh yeah. I remember when we moved to – so I grew up in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, until the age of thirteen, and then we moved to a rural area where they didn’t really have cable companies? You had to get satellite, because, you know, you’re in the middle of nowhere.

Sarah: And back then, satellite meant six million channels, right?

Amanda: Yeah! And I remember when we got it, and I’m like, what? You can pause live television? And there’s, like, a –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – DVR? Like, it blew my mind! I was like, what is this? ‘Cause before, like, I remember I would visit my dad on the weekends, and he had, like, the, the rabbit-ear antenna to, like, pick up the cable.

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: And then there was that big thing that’s like, oh, we’re switching from antennas to, like, cable boxes! Your antennas –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – will no longer work! Yeah, I remember.

Sarah: Yep. So we went, we, we both, at different times, lived through the transition of having television available, or programming specifically, even if it was movies, available, but you had to schedule yourself around them to a time when you can sit down and watch TV and choose from probably thousands of different things. And you end up, I think, at least in my own observation – this is purely my own anecdata – I think most people end up rewatching something because the, the decision fatigue of choosing between seven million things is, is very arduous. Like, that, that’s too overwhelming for me. And I don’t watch a lot of things.

Amanda: Oh yes, I have watched the same episode of a show – [laughs] – I watched, I think it’s season two of the Real Housewives of New Jersey –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – I have, I have watched their two-part reunion special –

Sarah: Oh my God.

Amanda: – over and over and over again. I actually think I own, I bought the entire season two on my Amazon account, because to me it was the best season of that entire franchise? [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my goodness.

Amanda: And I just wanted to have it forever.

Sarah: Ohhh my goodness, that’s amazing. That’s another thing you mentioned earlier, that you, like, have Judge Judy or Maury on in the background, and Real Housewives. I cannot watch – how do I put this? – television –

Amanda: Trashy reality television.

Sarah: No, that’s not what I was going to say! I was, I – ‘cause there are some reality shows where I could be like, okay! I can watch, for example, MasterChef Junior because the inherent, the, the, the baseline of that story, of that, of that reality show on the whole is kindness.

Amanda: Yeah, well, there’s just no, like, it’s not toxic; it’s not unhealthy.

Sarah: It’s not people behaving badly as a performance art? I cannot watch that.

Amanda: Yeah. I mean, honestly –

Sarah: Like, here is the very worst behavior of the people on your screen at this moment. I cannot, I cannot tune into that. And my, my, my sons and I got really into MasterChef Junior, and then, like, I was trying to explain to them why it was so funny that Gordon Ramsay was, like, being this gentle, coaching, parental figure of kindness?

Amanda: ‘Cause he’s so sweet with children!

Sarah: He’s so nice to them, and they’re so careful of each other? Like, you know, the, the MasterChef or other competition shows – I think it was Linda Holmes who, who said that, you know, a lot of reality competition shows, people are cast based on their own personality disorders? And that’s not necessarily the case for some, some reality shows, and MasterChef Junior, it’s slightly different. So I was trying to explain to my kids, like, okay, you don’t understand how mean this guy is to grownups? So I found a YouTube compilation video, and my kids will, like, walk into the kitchen where I’m, when I’m cooking now and be like, Mom! Where is the lamb sauce?! [Laughs] Just start screaming at me, and I just die laughing, ‘cause they had no idea how different the adult version is, and I realized I hate all of it. I hate, I hate watching people behave cruelly and unkindly to one another on purpose. That one hour of The Bachelor that we watched for Elyse?

Amanda: Oh, no, it was –

Sarah: I’m sorry; you’re right!

Amanda: – two hours.

Sarah: [Laughs] I blocked it!

Amanda: Sarah, lest you forget –

Sarah: It was two –

Amanda: – it was two whole hours.

Sarah: – hours of the most horrible person being mean to other people. And then Ari –

Amanda: And it just, like –

Sarah: – who was just useless.

Amanda: – two straight hours of secondhand embarrassment, ‘cause the –

Sarah: Thank you! Yes, that’s what it was!

Amanda: – the challenges that they put these women through, for what? Like, I don’t understand what it’s supposed to prove.

Sarah: What do you win?

Amanda: Like, oh yeah, I’m okay with embarrassing myself in front of millions of people? Like – [laughs] – that’s the only thing that it proves to me!

Sarah: Mm-hmm! Yeah, and it’s, it’s secondhand embarrassment and people placed in situations that are going to encourage them to be terrible, and I, I can’t watch it. Like, I couldn’t, I could never get into Seinfeld, and, like, everyone I knew loved Seinfeld.

Amanda: I can’t do Seinfeld. I just don’t, I just don’t get it. [Laughs] It’s not for me!

Sarah: I’m like, all of these people are terrible! Like, yes, that’s the point! And no! That, that is not the point! I cannot handle it. And oh my God, and then you go back and watch something that you really enjoyed, and you’re like, wow, my present self recognizes that my past self did not understand how terrible this was.

Amanda: Yeah, some things do not age well. [Laughs]

Sarah: Nooo, no, no, no! But when I look at the sort of level of toxicity of what’s on television? That is also going to inform a lot of my decisions. [Laughs] I feel very out of step with what, a lot of what is put on TV, because I don’t enjoy judging other people? Does that make sense?

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: And, and there’s a lot of constructed television, it’s constructed “reality television,” that is basically asking you to judge people. And I think, that’s exhausting; I don’t want to do that. That’s not even fun! My job is judging books. Like, I’m, I’m judged out at the end of the day. I don’t need you, I don’t need any more judgment.

Amanda: This came up at, like, a wedding that I went to, and I almost got into a fight with one of the groomsmen. [Laughs] But I wouldn’t say, like, I’m enjoying the #MeToo movement, because it’s really disheartening and heartbreaking to see, like, how sexual violence has touched so many women, and, but I’m kind of enjoying this, like, reckoning, because it really cuts down on, like, the people I support in media. Like, I have no problem being like, oh, Kevin Spacey is a terrible human being? Now I don’t have to finish House of Cards. I’m fine with it. Not a big deal.

Sarah: [Laughs] Thanks for making that easier!

Amanda: Yeah! Like, I have no problem not supporting toxic men and women in media, and it makes things a lot, it parses down my list, which I appreciate. I’m fine with giving up something if it means that, like, I don’t put more money into the pockets of abusers.

Sarah: And, and sometimes choosing to consume or not to consume something that you know has been created in a way that is damaging or dangerous or harmful is, sometimes that’s really the only option you have. Like, that’s the only thing that’s in your control.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: And I feel that way about a lot of entertainment? I was about ready to stop going to the movies if I saw that Goddamn trailer for Daddy’s Home 2?

Amanda: Oh my God.

Sarah: With Goddamn Mel Gibson rolling down a, an escalator at me?

Amanda: And Mark Wahlberg!

Sarah: I’m like, I –

Amanda: Two horrible people.

Sarah: I, I, I’m really not here for this guy’s comeback, and everyone’s line of being unable to separate the work from the person involved in it is different, and everyone’s line is in a different place, but for me, once you cross that line, I’m really done, and I really resent being told, oh no, no! This is okay! No. Really, it is not okay. Every time I saw it, I was like, just no. When it didn’t do well, I was so fucking happy!

Amanda: I think I have cracked the code to where my worry of things going tits-up comes from.

Sarah: Ohhh, please tell me why that is.

Amanda: I think I, I had, like, a flashback, and I think I’ve cracked it.

Sarah: I know what mine is; I’m curious what yours is.

Amanda: Okay. I was a wee girl, so probably fifth grade maybe?

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Amanda: And I watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Sarah: Uh-oh.

Amanda: Spoilers for anyone, even though the show has been out for a long time: I don’t recall, like, where this happened in terms of, like, the Buffy seasons, but in one episode – and I’m probably getting this entirely wrong – but she has to kill her, her vampire lover Angel, and I, I think it’s to, like, close some portal or whatever, and she, like, runs him through with a sword –

Sarah: Yep!

Amanda: – and I remember bawling my eyes out –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – crying to my grandmother, who had no clue what I was talking about –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – and just –

Sarah: There was a vampire, and she stabbed him with a sword! That sounds like what you’re supposed to do when that happens.

Amanda: [Laughs] And I just, I didn’t understand, like, why that had to happen. Like, I don’t even remember the specifics, and I could, you know, be wrong, but, like, I was like, couldn’t she have done this? Or why couldn’t she have done this instead? Like, I don’t understand why she had to, like, run him through with a sword and kill him? I don’t get it! Like, I, I felt like there could have been other ways to accomplish her goal without killing him off, and I was just devastated, and I think I only stuck with it a couple more episodes after that, but then I never watched another episode again. And to this day, like, my fond feelings for that show are gone. Like, I don’t care about watching it. I don’t want to, like, re- –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: I know some people who love Buffy, and that’s great! But after that, like, I was done! And I didn’t want to touch it ever again, and I still don’t. I was so heartbroken and so upset, and I really didn’t care about any sort of, like, future redemption or, like, him coming back or whatever. I was just so torn apart that I, I was just, like, emotionally devastated and done.

Sarah: I remember very clearly what was my, like, oh, I don’t trust you anymore feeling, and I’m, I’m listening to the way that you talked about this show is very similar to my, my, my traumatic television event, which I’ll tell you about shortly. But it really seems to me that the, that being romance readers who focus so intently on the romance genre, our reader expectations inform our reaction to a lot of other stories.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: You set this up to be the romance, and now she has to kill him. Uh, what?

Amanda: And with a book, like, you do know what you’re getting at the end, and it’s, you know, three-hundred-odd pages, whereas –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – with a TV show, especially with Buffy, you have no clue how long you’re going to get –

Sarah: Thank you!

Amanda: – dragged through this nonsense, hoping you get the result that you want.

Sarah: You want to hear my terrible, traumatic story?

Amanda: Of course!

Sarah: This is a really old spoiler. Yeah, this is embarrassing. Okay.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So long, long before George R. R. Martin –

Amanda: Oh no.

Sarah: – was writing A Game of Thrones, he wrote the original Beauty and the Beast TV show with, with Vincent and Catherine? Did you ever see any of these?

Amanda: Is it – I’m trying to think which one I’m thinking of. I’m Googling, so I – I’m very visual based, ‘cause you know, like, I can just, oh, is that the red cover with the whatever on it?

Sarah: Oh, you are in my brain!

Amanda: Googling – [laughs] – I just want to see an image. I’ve never watched it, but I am familiar with it.

Sarah: Okay, so you, you know what I’m talking about. There’s Ron Perlman, and he’s got, like, a, he’s a, he’s – so Vincent is like a cat-dude? It is –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – never explained. And –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – Linda, Linda Hamilton, who later went on to kill robots –

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: – is Catherine, and they have this – all right, if you would like to know the foundation of all of my trope catnip, you can find it in this show. It is so ridiculous. So a long, long time ago I learned that a lot of this show is a romance, but if you read the description of individual episodes, it’s all about whatever crime they’re fighting or they’re, they solve mysteries, ‘cause she works for the DA’s office, and he rides around on top of the subway killing people, because they end up with this psychic connection where he knows how she’s feeling at all times. She has no idea how he’s feeling. So –

Amanda: That’s fair. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah! I, I’m telling you, there is so much about this where I look at it now, and I’m like, how did this work on me? It worked so well; oh my God. Okay, so, basically – let me give you the setup – he lives underground with Roy Dotrice, who is now dead, but Roy Dotrice played his, his adoptive father. He was abandoned, and he was adopted by his father who, in the show, is named Father; very convenient.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: And he’s raised in this secret, underground world in the tunnels below New York City, and there’s this whole society of people who live there, and they kind of dress like Renaissance Faire?

Amanda: Yeah, look at, I’m looking at the clothes right now.

Sarah: [Laughs] There’s a lot of Ren Faire influence on these, on these people.

Amanda: A lot of off the shoulder.

Sarah: Oh that’s, that’s Catherine, right? She’s wearing some –

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: – like, fairy-looking – yeah, that’s a whole other thing. When was this on? Like, 1991? No, that, 1991 was the animated. When was this on?

Amanda: 1987.

Sarah: Oh Jesus. Okay, so in 1987, I was twelve. Now you know why this is the foundation of a lot of my –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I was twelve! This is when it got me! I was twelve years old. Okay. So he’s abandoned; he’s raised underground by the secret society. She’s a very, very wealthy daughter of a corporate lawyer, and she’s sort of cruising through her life, and she doesn’t really have to do very much. She’s attacked one night because she’s mis-, she’s mistaken for another person. These people cut up her face and toss her in the park, and he finds her and brings her down into this society to heal her, because he knows she’s going to die. So she’s all, her whole face is wrapped up, and all she can hear is his voice talking to her and reading to her and, and nursing her for however long she’s underground. And then she’s well enough to stand up and take off the bandages, and she sees her face and she freaks out, and then she turns around and he’s standing there, and you can see the picture. She’s a little freaked out, and she throws something at him, and she, like, screams, and he runs away, because he has very few friends. The people who live below are fine with him, but he doesn’t have any friends or – certainly no girlfriend. Finally, they, she talks with him, and he brings her back to the surface, and she goes and finds a really good plastic surgeon, quits her job as a corporate lawyer, works for the DA’s office. Like, gets hired, like, out of the blue, just walks in and is like, I want to work for you, and they’re like, uh, okay! Because, you know, that’s how jobs in the district attorney’s office work – and they end up, he, he realizes that he can feel what she’s feeling, and so she’s investigating these crimes and putting herself in peril, and then there’s this one stock image of him riding on the top of the subway through the tunnels to get to her to kill whoever it is that’s causing her harm, and then they have, like, a few moments together, and then it’ll be the next episode. So the, the, the description, the sort of obvious part of the show that the network produced is all about them fighting crime, but the show is actually a romance, except the network was so freaked out – I learned this later from a friend of mine –

Amanda: Oh.

Sarah: – who actually spoke to George R. R. Martin about this? Oh my God, I was, like, dying that I had not been part of this conversation, ‘cause I don’t really give a flying shit about Game of Thrones, but if I had, like, twenty minutes with George R. R. Martin to talk about Beauty and the Beast? I would be a very happy girl! ‘Cause this is, this is where my inner twelve-year-old gets, this is where she gets her joy. So the network, apparently, was terrified of the romantic elements, ‘cause –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – he, he’s part cat-looking dude? Like, even the first time they kiss – I think it’s the end of season one – their silhouettes do it. They wouldn’t even show them kissing! It’s like they freeze, and then their shadows kiss –

Amanda: I don’t like that!

Sarah: – and then they go back, and then they reanimate the frame again. Like, it, they’re so afraid of the kissing. It’s the most horribly, horribly unresolved sexual tension. Okay, so I am all in on this show. Oh my God, there is tension, and there’s this incredible amount of nobility, and there’s one episode where on Halloween he can walk around in public, ‘cause everyone’s in costume, so he comes to the surface, and they spend the whole night together, and it’s, like, the most romantic thing! And he takes her, like, to different parts of the city under the city. So he can listen to the symphony from the grates that are beneath the symphony hall, and he just sits in this big, beautiful cave listening to Beethoven.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Seriously, this is where all of my trope catnip comes from, this show. I can’t even tell you. So here’s what happens in the show: Linda Hamilton left the show, I don’t know why –

Amanda: She had robots to kill!

Sarah: She did have robots that she needed to kill. She needed to get her biceps in order and kill some robots. And you know, these things happen. Someday in this life, I will have Linda Hamilton’s biceps, ‘cause God, does that woman have nice arms. Anyway. So she’s leaving. Somehow off screen she’s pregnant –

Amanda: No! [Laughs]

Sarah: – and she’s kidnapped – I know, off screen! This is, all of the romance is very subtextual and nothing happens on screen. Like, this, this would kill you. [Laughs] So – I own this on DVD; I might need to start watching it.

Amanda: Oh my goodness.

Sarah: So – I will be such a mess if I do. It’ll be amazing! – she’s pregnant and gets kidnapped by this evil guy, and because she is pregnant, he can no longer find her. His, his noble emotional geolocation is no longer working. But then when she goes into labor, he’s been searching for her, he’s been searching for her, and this guy is keeping her captive for her pregnancy, so finally he knows where she is, but what he’s actually connected to is their child, and so he’s running to the top of this building, and the bad guy flies away on a helicopter with the baby, and he’s like, I know she’s in the helicopter, I can’t get to her, and this is very sad, and she appears behind him, and they have poisoned her, and they have, they, she is dying, and –

Amanda: Oh no.

Sarah: – she dies! And he’s like, what do, what is happening, and all she can say is, there’s a child, and then she quotes one line from Dylan Thomas poetry! Oh my God, it’s so much angst! I could not handle it! Then she dies –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and they bring in some other actor. Some other woman shows up to solve the case, and, like, he’s got this second romance with her, and I was like, nope!

Amanda: No.

Sarah: Nope, nope, nope, nope. You killed her. That’s it; it’s, it’s done. I remember being so traumatized by this fucking Dylan Thomas poetry, I had to, like, leave English class in tears so I could go to the library and look up the whole poem, because I was in agony about this death.

Amanda: It kind of reminds me of when, like, a soap opera changes the lead actress for a character? Like, that’s –

Sarah: Yep, when they kill her and then bring her back.

Amanda: – it’s still – but no, but it’s still the same character; they just change actresses, and everyone’s supposed to look, just pretend like this person who has been a character on the show for some-odd seasons has a completely difference face –

Sarah: Surprise!

Amanda: – and hair color, but it’s still the same person!

Sarah: Wait, was there a different Beauty and the Beast?

Amanda: Yeah, they did a remake. With, I think, Lois Lane from Smallville?

Sarah: What?!

Amanda: Yeah, in 20-, 2012? It’s a, pretty much exact same setup, but no Ren Faire clothing.

Sarah: And he doesn’t look like a cat! And he’s not Ron Perlman.

Amanda: I mean, he has some things going on, but not as cat-like.

Sarah: Fantasy police procedural. Yeah, that’s kind of how it was. Oh, but the, this, in the, in the remake, she has street fighting skills –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and he’s been watching over her for years. Nooo, no, no, no. The thing that killed me, literally, was that they killed her! Like, they just, they killed her, and that was it, and there was no happy ending, and I was just deeply, deeply betrayed, and in my mind, that didn’t happen. She’s still alive; everything’s fine.

Amanda: I don’t know why they couldn’t just, like, find a way. Like, oh yeah, you’re leaving? Then, like, why not –

Sarah: Wrap up the show!

Amanda: – we find – yeah, like, find a way to happiness!

Sarah: This was my first fandom obsession, I think, because I, I had the graphic novels. I remember when Twilight was a big thing, there was an editorial about how the secret world is part of what draws readers in: because you know about the secret world, then you’re part of it, and even if it’s in, only in your imagination. This was my first real experience with a fantasy world that was a secret coexisting within the world that was my world, even though I didn’t live in New York? So yeah, this was, this is the origin story of all of my catnip and was the first fandom that I ever dealt with. Oh, according to Wikipedia, which, as you know, is infallible –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – it was a decision, along with the network’s desire to attract more male viewers, would have serious repercussions for the show’s continued survival. So they had a romance, and they killed the romance because they wanted more men to watch it.

Amanda: Don’t they have enough?

Sarah: No, apparently not.

Amanda: Man.

Sarah: So yeah. This is, this is what scarred me. Because story and continuity will always be secondary to profit and syndication, I cannot watch things without fear that the actual story will become secondary to the things that I like, which is the story, and also the romance.

Amanda: Yeah. And I think it was, like, Joss Whedon; I don’t think he’s that great at writing romance either, so I can understand –

Sarah: Oh no, he’s terrible at it!

Amanda: – why he did that.

Sarah: Oh yeah. So is there a television show that you do like –

Amanda: Oh man.

Sarah: – that you do, that you would recommend?

Amanda: Ooh, guh. The Good Place, definitely. It’s so good. But I think that might be the only one I recommend. I mean, Westworld has a huge slew of problems, lots of violence. Elyse and I talk about it. She warned me that the first episode of the second season is very gory and not to eat while I’m watching it.

Sarah: Good to know.

Amanda: But The Good Place is real-, I feel like it would reach a lot of different viewers. I mean, it’s pretty light sometimes. There, there is romance. The characters are great. It’s really funny. Definitely The Good Place I feel like is the last thing that I really enjoyed watching.

Sarah: I would recommend Brooklyn Nine-Nine, because I think that they are constantly aware of the story that they’re telling, and there’s continuity, and there’s storylines that are both retreads of very familiar sit-coms situations, but also new and different, and I love the characters so much. Like, I like all of them. It’s like hanging out with people who, who you like. I like that part. I don’t want to hang out with people I don’t like.

Amanda: I have a soft spot for Terry Crews, so much. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my God, he’s the best character. He’s so much himself, too.

Amanda: Yeah, he is.

Sarah:  Like, he talks Terry, ‘cause his, his, his character is, in the show, is also Terry.

Amanda: [Laughs] That’s right!

Sarah: He’s adorable! He’s adorable, and I listened to this one interview with one of the actresses, Stephanie Beatriz, who, she plays Rosa. Have you seen this show?

Amanda: Yes. I’ve seen, I think, the first two seasons?

Sarah: Okay, so you know Rosa.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: She’ll kill you.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: With, like, her eyelash.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: In real life, she’s this, like, her voice is much higher, and she’s really positive and bubbly and adorable –

Amanda: Who knew?

Sarah: – and I’m like, oh my God, this is amazing! So she talks about how conscious and careful they are about the stories that they’re telling and that they constantly improve and change storylines, and they’re aware of what they’re trying to do and how to make, how to make the stories that they’re telling better representations of what people actually look like, and I, and that’s really hard work, especially when you’re on a network, because the network’s going to be like, what are you talking about? We don’t want things that are different! We want more male viewers and less romance. So I love that show a lot. I like it a lot.

Amanda: I remember there was a story that came out when Stephanie Beatriz saw that Melissa Fumero, who plays Amy? –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – got the part, or was interviewing or, like, auditioning, and she was bummed because she didn’t think that they would hire two Latina actresses –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – but they wound up doing so, and they have, like, photos of each other on their Instagrams where they’re, like, cuddling in their trailers while, like, scrolling through their phones together. It’s so cute!

Sarah: The other show that I love is Bob’s Burgers.

Amanda: Oh my gosh.

Sarah: I love that show so much. It is like somebody put all of the things that Sarah and Adam really love in a blender and made a show out of it, but the, but the foundation of it, much like the foundation of, of MasterChef Junior, is kindness and support. The, the foundation of that show is that they all do care about each other.

[music]

Sarah: That brings us to the end of this episode. Amanda and I remain curious: what TV shows ruined you? Or are the ones that you will rewatch forever and ever? Do you have trouble sticking with series and television shows too? Do you trust TV writers as little as I do? Sorry, TV writers who might be listening. I, I can’t help it. Beauty and the Beast scarred me for life. We want to hear from you: [email protected], or if that’s not going to stick in your brain, Sarah with an H at smartbitchestrashybooks dot com [[email protected]]. We would love to hear your take on this, because this is a, this is a weird one. TV is very omnipresent, and yet we are both so bad at it.

I also would like to have you come to our live taping. Yay! If you’re going to be at RWA in Denver, please join us on Friday, July 20th, at 4:40 p.m., Tower Court B. We’re going to be playing Cards Against Romance Tropes. Now, this game was created by the Chicago North chapter of RWA several years ago, and they made a limited edition; don’t even know how many there are, but I have one of them, and we’re going to play, and it’s going to be amazing. If you go to the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, in the notes for this episode there is a link to RSVP. There’s no fee, of course, to attend, but I kind of need to know how many people are coming, and I hope you’ll join us! Live show, Friday, July 20th, during RWA, 4:40 p.m., Tower Court B, come hang out with us! It’s going to be so fun.

This episode was brought to you by Read Bliss. Are you looking for royal romance recommendations? The top three qualities of a great heroine? How about five unforgettable, uplifting reads? Find all of these and more at readbliss.com, your video destination for all things romance and reading. Subscribe to Read Bliss on YouTube for book recommendations, author spotlights, and more from romance novel experts and readers just like you. Visit readbliss.com and check out Read Bliss on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Read Bliss: Watch, read, love.

This week’s transcript is brought to you by everyone in the Patreon community. Thank you, Patreon! Each episode receives a transcript which is handcrafted by garlicknitter. Thank you, garlicknitter. [You’re welcome! – gk] The transcripts make the podcast accessible, and the Patreon community helps keep the show going. If you would like to have a look at our Patreon, it is patreon.com/SmartBitches. Every contribution means the world to me, so thank you, thank you, thank you for having a look.

You can also support the show by leaving a review however or wherever you listen, and wow, are those reviews effective. You can tell a friend; you can subscribe; whatever works. I am honored that you hang out with me.

And because it bugs me when I can’t cite my sources, I looked it up from the intro: @almondtears on Twitter is the source of the phrase “a group of white men is called a podcast.” [Laughs] And that will never not make me laugh. [Laughs more, clears throat] Okay, back to being professional. Professional podcaster here. Yeah.

The music you’re listening to is provided each week by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This is the Peatbog Faeries live album, Live @ 25. This track is called “The Ranch,” and you can find it on Amazon or iTunes, and you can find more about Peatbog Faeries at their website, peatbogfaeries.com.

I will have links to all of the books and movies and television shows that we talked about. I’m curious if there are DVDs of Judge Judy; I’m sure there are somewhere. But all of the links and all of the individual books that we talked about will be in the show notes.

I also have a little extra bonus surprise at the end as Amanda talks about a movie that she owned on VHS and loved that I had never heard of, and I think I need to go find it.

But before I go, I have a bad joke, because bad jokes are the best! All right, are you ready? Here’s time for your terrible joke so you can tell people all weekend and make them groan at you. [Laughs]

Why do bears always poop in the woods?

Why do bears always poop in the woods? ‘Cause that’s where the toilet-trees are!

[Laughs] That is from slowshot on Reddit. Two weeks in a row with tree-themed dad jokes! Life is a grand thing.

On behalf of Amanda and myself and everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend. We’ll see you here next week, and don’t forget there’s a little bonus.

[outdoorsy music]

Amanda: Also, total non sequitur, but while you were talking about this – [laughs]

Sarah: Yes?

Amanda: – it reminded me of one of my favorite animated movies that I have heard no one talk about ever? I think I’m the only one who owned this movie. [Laughs] It was called Happily Ever After, and it’s like a Snow White retelling, but the dwarves are female?

Sarah: Wha-at?

Amanda: Zsa Zsa Gabor, Carol Channing, Phyllis Diller – [laughs] – Dom DeLuise, Malcolm McDowell –

Sarah: Holy crap!

Amanda: Irene Cara – like, these are all the voice actors. I think Tracey Ullman’s in it? But it’s such a weird little movie, but I feel like I’m the only one who owned this on VHS. But for some reason I was like, was I disappointed with this ending? And I just read the plot synopsis. Like, no, it ends happily! Maybe I’m remembering something else!