Sarah chats with bestselling author Jill Shalvis. They’ve known one another for a long time, but not quite as long as Jill has been writing romance. They discuss writing for multiple publishers over her nearly 20 year career, writing secondary romances within established marriages, the proper gear for writing outside in the winter, and romance in small towns and bit cities. They also touch on favorite tropes, and the genre and story she wishes she could write.
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This is a song called “Mackerel & Tatties” by Michael McGoldrick from his album, Aurora. You can find the album at Amazon or at iTunes.
Transcript
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Smart Podcast, Trashy Books, September 30, 2016
[music]
Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 214 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and I am so glad you’re here! Today I am talking with Jill Shalvis. Jill and I have known each other for a really long time, but not as long as Jill has been writing romance. We talk about writing for multiple publishers over her nearly twenty-year career. We talk about writing secondary romances within established marriages, different series that she’s written, writing in small towns, and the proper gear needed for writing outside in the middle of winter. We also talk about her favorite tropes and the genre and story she is longing to write.
We are without a sponsor for this episode, so this episode is brought to you by my dog Zeb, who decides that a squirrel outside is breaking a law in the middle of the podcast, and he has a guest background appearance. He’s very proud to be bringing you this episode.
And if you are a longtime listener or reader of the transcripts and you would like to support the show, please have a look at our Patreon campaign at Patreon.com/SmartBitches. If you wish to contribute, you can make a monthly pledge starting with as little as a dollar a month to help me reach goals like commissioning transcripts and upgrading the equipment. You can see all the rewards and options at Patreon.com/SmartBitches. If you’ve had a look or supported the show or shared the link, thank you! You are entirely awesome.
Our music each week is provided by Sassy Outwater. I will have information at the end of the podcast as to who this is.
And we talk about a lot of books in this episode, but do not worry. Whatever you’re doing, if you’re busy and you can’t write down the titles, you know I have you covered. I will link to all the books we discuss in the podcast entry. You can also find links to our iTunes page, which is pretty rad, at iTunes.com/DBSA, where all the recent episodes, plus books in the iBooks store, are linked to. And we also have links on the podcast entry for the music and other options to subscribe, and there’s a whole lot going on, so if you would like to go shopping, because who doesn’t want to buy books, have a look!
And now, without any further delay, on with the podcast!
[music]
Jill Shalvis: Hi! This is Jill Shalvis, and I write sexy, funny, contemporary romances.
Sarah: How many romances have you written? Do you know?
Jill: Oh, my gosh, I should have prepared for that one. I do not know.
Sarah: I told you I was going to ask you math! Like, I said, I’m going to ask you math questions, and you’re like, oh, okay, Sarah.
Jill: [Laughs] You weren’t even kidding! I, I want to say it’s close to a hundred.
Sarah: It has to be close to a hundred by now!
Jill: Yep, it is, and, you know, some of those were the shorter contemporaries, and some were novellas.
Sarah: They still count!
Jill: They still count. I, I’ll know that for the next time we talk, how’s that?
Sarah: That is perfectly acceptable. Now, you started writing for Harlequin, right?
Jill: I did!
Sarah: Do you –
Jill: Oh, okay, that’s actually not true. I started with Loveswept when Loveswept was out the first time, when it was a, a category line at Bantam.
Sarah: Oh, long, long, long ago!
Jill: Oh, God, yeah, in the, you know, in the earlier, previous century.
Sarah: In the previous century.
[Laughter]
Sarah: You know, I have to tell you, my, my younger son, who is nine, was complaining about the play that he had to do at camp because it was a musical, and he’s not into musicals, which he gets from me, but he was also really indignant because it was from the 1900s, Mom.
Jill: [Laughs] No! It’s ancient!
Sarah: And I was like, I’m from the 1900s, pal! [Laughs]
Jill: Ancient history.
Sarah: I know, ages ago!
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: So you started writing for Loveswept.
Jill: I did, and then I switched over to Harlequin/Silhouette. I, I went to Silhouette Intimate Moments, which back then was a line – it’s now romantic suspense or something, but when it was Intimate Moments, I loved that line. I loved it; I wrote four, and then I, they switched me over – I was writing kind of sexy-funny at the time and not necessarily suspense –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jill: – so they switched me over to Harlequin, where I did a couple of Love and Laughters, I did Temptations.
Sarah: I loved the Temptation line.
Jill: I did too. I did too. Short, funny, sassy, sexy.
Sarah: And they always had, like, they were one of the lines who had a, a character with a really prominent job. Like, there was competence porn in the Temptation line.
Jill: Yeah. [Laughs] It’s very true.
Sarah: Very true. So do you, do any of your Loveswepts, are, are they still out? Are they anywhere to be found?
Jill: No. They died. They died. Thank God! They were out before the digital, the digital wave hit, which means that they’re not available, and I have not reissued them, and it’s funny, a lot of people say to me, why don’t you self-pub those and put them up? And that will probably never happen. I feel like I was still learning my way back then, and when I look them over, they make me wince, so I don’t feel comfortable putting them out.
Sarah: I totally understand that!
Jill: They’re before cell phones, they’re before the Internet. It’s, it, they’re not current.
Sarah: You know, it’s funny, it, it’s a lot easier to establish conflict in, in terms of –
Jill: Oh, yes!
Sarah: – meet cutes and getting stuck –
Jill: [Laughs] Yes!
Sarah: – ‘cause you can’t just whip out your cell phone and be like, look, you’re creepy, and we’re stuck in this elevator. I’m going to have us out of here in, like, 45 minutes.
Jill: Exactly! And that was kind of my thing, you know, funny meet cutes and ridiculous situations that are no longer, that couldn’t happen now.
Sarah: They don’t exist now, so –
Jill: They don’t exist now.
Sarah: So is it difficult sometimes to figure out the, the conflict and the proximity of contemporary romances, now that there’re so many ways to get an easy out out of any situation?
Jill: Well, you know, I still find the funny in everything, so it, it, it doesn’t matter to me what time period I’m writing, I’m still going to find the ridiculous in something that’s everyday, an everyday situation, and now I have all these, you know, online dating. There’re so many fun, ways to make fun of what’s happening in the dating world.
Sarah: Yes, this is true, and there’s no shortage of ways to completely embarrass yourself.
Jill: Correct. And in fact, there’re probably even more now.
Sarah: [Laughs] It’s true! And it’s even more permanent, because there’s always a screencap of it somewhere.
Jill: Yes, and for instance, in the book I wrote recently, my heroine texts who she thinks is her sister about the cute guy she’s staring at him, his, well, his ass. Can I say ass? Sure! I can say –
Sarah: Though, there, you can say whatever you want.
Jill: She accidentally texts him instead of –
Sarah: Oops.
Jill: – the sister, because the both, their names start with the first letter, and that couldn’t have happened thirty years ago. [Laughs]
Sarah: No, that would not have happened at all. Which book was that?
Jill: Oh, it actually was the last Animal book, All I Want. All I, is it All I Want? All I Want. In fact, it’s on sale right now for $1.99.
Sarah: Is it now?!
Jill: Yes, it is.
Sarah: That’s lovely! I have to tell people that; hang on.
Jill: Yes, so run, don’t walk! [Laughs]
Sarah: Yeah! Hopefully – do you know when that sale ends?
Jill: You know, it’s probably this week, so you’d better, we should check that, ‘cause by the time we air this it might not be on sale any more.
Sarah: Nah, I can easily check that; no problem.
Jill: Okay.
Sarah: So you went from Bantam Loveswept to Harlequin, Harlequin, Harlequin, and then, was that when you went to Kensington? ‘Cause that’s when you and I first met, like, way, way –
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: – way the hell back in, like, 2008.
Jill: Because of our shared love of Kate Duffy.
Sarah: That’s right!
Jill: My editor at Kensington. Yes, I went from Harlequin to Kensington, where I wrote longer funny, sexy romances for the first time, and I was so happy doing that.
Sarah: Was it easier to just expand?
Jill: Yes, I was so happy. It was a freedom because, you know, category, which I love, still love to this day reading, has a formula, and I didn’t have a formula when I went, when I took it to a bigger format, a longer format. I could have two couples, I could have a, a subplot, I could kill people. [Laughs] I could do whatever I wanted.
Sarah: [Laughs] I could kill people.
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: You know, this is why people want to make the jump from, you know, category to single title.
Jill: To kill people! [Laughs]
Sarah: The body count goes up!
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: It’s very convenient!
Jill: Yes. And I had room for things that I loved, you know, animals and, you know, subplots. I could make things more fun for me.
Sarah: Yes, and you could introduce additional characters and then –
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: – lead them into the next book.
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: Or, like, the, the, the first book I read of yours is Instant Attraction, which I have written about –
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: – many, many times, because it literally, and I don’t mean this ex-, in, in an, in exaggeration, totally changed my, my life and the way I run my life with my family, which is like a really weird thing to say the author, but I think I’ve already told you this.
Jill: We’ve talked about this. I get it, and it also, you know, brought you to the world of skiing and to winter sports, which I love.
Sarah: That’s exactly it! I, I finished that book; I immediately looked and was like, oh! Skiing with your family is totally a thing you can do! Oh, my gosh!
Jill: Yes. [Laughs] I remember talking to you and, and loving that it brought skiing into your life, and I love that series, the Instant Attraction series [Wilder series]. I think that was the first, the – I’ll have to look. That was one of the first things I wrote for Kensington, and it’s a three-book series about three brothers who run an expedition company, so it’s all excitement and adventure, and it was a thrill for me –
Sarah: Outdoor sports.
Jill: Yeah, outdoor sports. Things that Harlequin, at the time, wouldn’t let me do.
Sarah: And I remember with Instant Attraction that there’s a background story between the, the, the woman who cooks for the resort and her husband –
Jill: My very –
Sarah: – and they’re having marital trouble.
Jill: – my very favorite thing in the whole world. I always have wanted, and at that time I had been curtailed, to write in the back-, I wanted to write a couple who were already married, because some, to me, some of the most, funniest times happen when you’re in a long-term relationship. It doesn’t end at the I Love You –
Sarah: No.
Jill: – or Will You Marry Me. Some of the best stuff happens after, so I was finally given free rein to do that, and so in the background, running through these three stories, is the older sister, or the aunt I think she was. I can’t even remember, but she had, she was married –
Sarah: I think she was the aunt. Yeah.
Jill: – and she was, like, forty – God forbid, that was so old – and she had this long-term relationship with her husband, and I was able to mine the humor out of the long-term, you know, shut the dishwasher, put the lid down.
Sarah: Yep. You don’t see me; you don’t hear me.
Zeb: Woof! Bark!
Jill: Correct.
Sarah: My dog sees you, and my dog hears you. Really, this is when you bark. You’re quiet all day, and now you bark.
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: Pain in my ass. I’m sure –
Jill: At least it’s your dogs and not mine.
Sarah: Well, I’ve got, I’m sure that there is a squirrel, and that squirrel is breaking the law.
Jill: This reminds me: there’s a bobcat in our front yard right now. Right before you called me, we were taking pictures.
Sarah: There’s a bobcat?
Jill: Yes, we were taking pictures.
Sarah: And did the dogs, like, lose their minds?
Jill: Lose their minds, yes.
Sarah: Oh, my gosh, it’s a bobcat!
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: I actually have that on, on my list of things to ask you about.
Jill: Yes?
Sarah: Before I, before I move off of the established couple, I do want to ask you about your Instagram feed and where you work! It’s so cool!
Jill: Well, I live in, near Tahoe on the California side, and –
Sarah: And it’s, like, super ugly where you live.
Jill: [Laughs] Yes!
Sarah: It’s, like, nothing but dirt. No trees, no snow, just dirt.
Jill: It’s so sad, it’s just – but, yeah, it’s the most gorgeous place. I, I literally live in heaven, and it’s funny because I’m a writer, because I don’t really like to be with people, and I like to be alone, and I don’t need to travel because I live in the best place ever, and now that I’m a writer they send me places and want me to talk to people and want me to –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jill: – go to cities and stuff, and I just want to stay home! [Laughs]
Sarah: Listen, I got a tree, I got a date with a tree.
Jill: [Laughs] Yes.
Sarah: I’m going to sit under the tree.
Jill: So I work outside. I work on, I mean, on my deck or, you know, in the woods, at the lake, on the cliff overlooking the river. I have so many gorgeous options.
Sarah: And even in the winter, like, you’ll post My writing view, and there’s snow –
Jill: Oh, yes.
Sarah: – and you’re sitting – see, now, I’m okay with being outside in the cold if I’m moving around. If I were to sit there with my laptop, I would sort of, you know, freeze.
Jill: I have the best gear possible. I mean, I’m just, you know, I have, I have really good gear that keeps me warm that people would probably laugh at. That’s not pretty, but I can –
Sarah: Oh, no, winter gear is not meant to be pretty.
Jill: No, but it’s perfect. It keeps me warm, and I –
Sarah: What do you wear when you’re writing outside?
Jill: My ski gear. [Laughs]
Sarah: That makes sense.
Jill: Yeah.
Sarah: So, like, two base layers, a mid layer, and then your ski pants?
Jill: Yes! And boots.
Sarah: Boots.
Jill: And because we have a lot of snow here, we have a lot of snow here, and I wear a down jacket with a hood, a hat underneath it, a face mask, gloves, hand warmers stuck into the gloves.
Sarah: Can you type with gloves on?
Jill: Yes! I was just going to say, it took me a very long time to find gloves that I can type in, but I have –
Sarah: And that, that, like, actually insulated your fingers.
Jill: And allows me to touch the keyboard and the screen.
Sarah: Yeah. So you gear up, and you go write outside –
Jill: I gear up.
Sarah: – when it’s, you know –
Jill: Yeah.
Sarah: – below freezing.
Jill: Yes. I, I, well, you know, the thing about Tahoe is, it’s deceptive because it looks colder than it is.
Sarah: Mm.
Jill: We have long stretches of gorgeous, gorgeous weather, and then the snow comes in, blows in, and it gets cold, and the snow blows out, and it really hovers right around thirty-two. We don’t often get really, really cold.
Sarah: Wow. ‘Cause I, I regularly – and this is completely true because of Instant Attraction – every year my family and I go skiing in northern Vermont, and it is cold as –
Jill: [Laughs] I laugh at your northern Vermont.
Sarah: – balls. It is cold as – okay, I will have you know, Miss I Ski in California, that there is a triple black diamond – it’s short, but it’s there – and –
Jill: Okay, what’s your altitude?
Sarah: Oh, I don’t know, like twelve feet?
[Laughter]
Sarah: Actually, now I have to look it up, because I have lived most of my life at sea level. I don’t get altitude sickness –
Jill: Uh-huh.
Sarah: – but I notice when I’m up. Like, oh, the air really is different! So –
Jill: We live at 6300 feet. That’s where we live, and then when we ski, you know, you go up to eight or ten thousand, so it is a different atmosphere, and you do have to get used to it. People who come up can get altitude sick. It’s easy.
Sarah: Oh, yeah.
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Oh, yeah. That I believe. Okay. Let me see here. The base elevation of the, of the actual ski resort is 1,030 feet –
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: – and the top elevation is 3,640 feet. Quite –
Jill: How do you even get snow at that level? I laugh at you! [Laughs]
Sarah: I, honestly, the, last year there was not good snow, and then the year before it was like there was no such thing as too much snow. It was, it was just glorious, and then –
Jill: Yeah, they had a big year.
Sarah: – this past year we had that awesome experience where it’s snowing at the top of the mountain, but it’s not quite snowing at the bottom.
Jill: [Laughs] Oh, no. So, skiing –
Sarah: So we would go up, and it would be, like, six inches of fresh powder, and we’d be like, woohoo! And then we’d get, like, most of the way down and be like, where did all this ice come from?
Jill: I know!
Sarah: This sucks! Can I turn around?
Jill: Yeah, the eastern ski is a lot of, is, is really ice skating on skis.
Sarah: Oh, it’s, it can get very loud, scraping over the ice.
Jill: Yes. Yes. We don’t have that. We have that powder. Our snow is the consistency of, like, sugar, powdered sugar.
Sarah: [Sighs]
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: Yeah, well, you have the kind of mountains, I mean, you, you have the kind of ski mountains where you go to the top and it takes you, like, thirty minutes to get to the bottom.
Jill: Oh, yeah. Or longer.
Sarah: Like, I’m still here. Oh, my God.
Jill: Yeah.
Sarah: I really have to pee and I’m hungry.
Jill: Yes, you’ve got to pee before you get there or when you get to the top, because it’s a two-mile or three-mile run.
Sarah: That’s so awesome! So, anyway. One of the things that I loved about the background romance in the Wilder series, or the Instant series, is that not only were they already married, but they were having real, like, ordinary, destructive relationship issues.
Jill: Yes, and that was really important to me. I was so excited to do that because, for instance, they were having trouble finding the sexytimes, you know? They got a little bored of each other, and so she was going – Annie! – she was going out of her way –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jill: – to try to seduce this man that she’d been with for twenty years, and every time she would fail, you know, the time that she put nothing on but a trench coat and went out to the garage and tried to flash him, and she flashed the boys instead –
Sarah: [Laughs] And they all screamed!
Jill: Yeah, in horror. I mean, I just thought that that’s real stuff!
Sarah: Oh, yes. And the parts where she talks about how he doesn’t understand or he doesn’t see her, he doesn’t hear her anymore, she’s just sort of, she thinks that to him she’s background noise.
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: And –
Jill: And she’s not! She’s the love of his life. He’s just a stupid man! [Laughs]
Sarah: He’s just, he’s just a little emotionally constipated.
Jill: Yes! [Laughs]
Sarah: Just a bit.
Jill: I’m going to use that, emotionally constipated. That’s good.
Sarah: Yeah, he’s very emotionally constipated. I think Elyse was the first one to say that to me, but, yes, it’s a perfect description of many romance heroes.
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Ah, feels, what do I do with them? So annoying!
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: When, so when, once you started writing for Kensington –
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: – is it then that you moved on to Penguin and then to Avon? Or Penguin Grand Central and Avon?
Jill: Yeah, so –
Sarah: Is there a publisher you haven’t written for at this point?
Jill: No, I don’t think so.
Sarah: Nice job!
Jill: And the, you know, I, I, I loved Kensington, but my editor, Kate Duffy, God bless her, died, and my contract was over, and that was it, and she was gone, so I moved on. And I started with Berkley, I wrote a few books for them, the Animal series, a few sports books, and then Grand Central, you know, made me an offer I couldn’t refuse, and I wrote one over there and wrote the Lucky Harbor series, and I was very happy doing that, and when that was done I moved on again, and now I’m at Avon, and I’m very happy there, and I’m writing this new series called Heartbreaker Bay. So most of the time and most of the, all these other series that we’ve talked about, I did small town, ‘cause I’m really drawn to a sense of community –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jill: – but now that I’m at Avon and I’m writing the Heartbreaker Bay series it takes place in San Francisco, which is probably one of my favorite cities in the world, and I, it was very important to me that I still bring that sense of community, so I started off in the Cow Hollow district of San Francisco –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jill: – in an old, dilapidated warehouse building that has been redone into, like, a mixed use building, so there’re residents on top, there’re businesses on the bottom, a pub, a coffee shop, you know, security company, things like that, and so I was able to bring the small town sense of community to that building within this big city.
Sarah: And the interesting thing that, about big cities that I think a lot of people may not realize if they’ve never been in one is that most big cities are lots of teeny-tiny communities –
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: – all stuck together.
Jill: In fact, the bigger the city, the more that’s true. New York, LA, San Francisco, Chicago.
Sarah: Oh, yeah.
Jill: Those, to me, are just adorable little, tiny little cities all in a row. Yeah, so I, I grew up, even though I was born in New Jersey, I grew up in LA, as big a town as you can get, and –
Sarah: Pretty big!
Jill: Pretty big, and you know –
Sarah: Pretty wide.
Jill: – you could go out and be totally anonymous. You could go to the grocery store and never see someone that you know. You could go weeks and never see someone that you know. Here, like you, small town, and me the city girl, you know, you can’t, you have to get dressed to go to the grocery store because you’re going to run into someone in each aisle that you know –
Sarah: Oh!
Jill: – and one of them’s going to be your gynecologist, and one of them’s –
Sarah: Of course.
Jill: – going to be the postmaster that you yelled at, you know, so you have to be super careful – [laughs] – and I was able just to find the humor in all of that. It just, it’s so funny to me.
Sarah: I have, I went to college in South Carolina, and I have a lot of friends who still live there, and one of my friends lives in Florence, which is kind of a larger town in South Carolina, but she’s like, listen, I’ve got to put on lipstick before I go to Harris Teeter.
Jill: [Laughs] Yes.
Sarah: If I’m going to Harris Teeter, I need lipstick, and I need to make sure I brushed my hair, ‘cause I will run into everyone who are the people that will notice that I didn’t brush my hair and I’m not wearing lipstick, and I’m like, I don’t even like to put on real pants.
Jill: I don’t either.
[Laughter]
Jill: I’m not wearing pants now! [Laughs]
Sarah: Nice! I hope you’re not outside. Are you outside in your underwear? This’d be –
Jill: No.
Sarah: – a really, really weird show.
Jill: I wear pajamas.
Sarah: Oh, excellent!
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: That’s your other gear? Like, the gear for writing inside –
Jill: Yes!
Sarah: – is pajamas and underpants.
Jill: That’s my writing uniform, honestly. [Laughs]
Sarah: I did a, an interview with Mel Jolly, who’s an author’s assistant and organizer, and she was talking about how every Christmas she gets pajamas, and she holds it up and goes, work pants! [Laughs]
Jill: Yes! It’s perfect. Listen, those can be Thanksgiving pants or work pants. [Laughs]
Sarah: Hey, if it’s got an elastic waist, you are home free.
Jill: Exactly.
Sarah: So, do you miss the Lucky Harbor series? Do you miss that world?
Jill: Well, I never closed – I, I loved that world, I really did, and I love the Animal series, and I love the Instant series, and all the series, I get very attached to emotionally, and I haven’t closed any of them up, so I did that very purposefully so I can always go back.
Sarah: Nice! Very nice! And if you, if you do go back, like, if you were going to go back to the Instant world –
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – what, what would you write? Like, a new generation of people?
Jill: I don’t know. The Instant world is different for me than the Lucky Harbor, because Lucky Harbor was truly a set of trilogies up to twelve, I wrote twelve books and a couple of novellas, and so each time I was, it was able, I was able to introduce new characters.
Sarah: Right.
Jill: It was first sisters, a trio of sisters, then it was three friends, and then the coworkers –
Sarah: Yep.
Jill: – so that’s much easier to jump back into. With the Instant series, it was three brothers –
Sarah: An extremely small town.
Jill: – it was definitive – an extremely small town in an extremely, in an extreme world –
Sarah: Yes.
Jill: – you know, on top of the mountain. So I would probably, since it’s been ten years or whatever it’s been, I would probably do the next, have to do the next generation and fib with the timeline.
Sarah: I’m here for that.
Jill: Yeah, I know. I get letters all the time, and I would do that some day. I would definitely do that.
Sarah: With the book that’s coming out right now, as the podcast is going to be released, with your next book, The Trouble with Mistletoe –
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – that’s book two in the Heartbreaker Bay series, right?
Jill: It is book two. Yes, and the first book was Sweet Little Lies, came out in June, and I’m really careful with this series. I really was, I don’t like when readers feel they have to read them in order. I don’t want anyone to feel that way. If you’re a series reader and you want to read ‘em in order as they come, great. You’ll get ex-, you’ll get little extra bonuses for doing it that way, but you’re not going to miss anything if you read them out of order.
Sarah: That’s really good, though. I think, there are a lot of times when I’m looking for books and I’m like, oh, it’s book four. Well, I can’t read that.
Jill: Exactly, and that’s what I don’t want, so you can start here. If you haven’t read Sweet Little Lies, please feel free to jump in.
Sarah: So you, these are all sort of, they’re not a progressive timeline; it’s an interconnected world.
Jill: It’s an interconnected setting, and in the first three books, Sweet Little Lies, The Trouble with Mistletoe, and the one that comes out in January, which is called Accidentally on Purpose, it is three friends, but their stories are completely standalone.
Sarah: So what is the conflict in The Trouble with Mistletoe? Can you tell me about that book?
Jill: Yes, I can absolutely you about that book, and it’s –
Sarah: Yay!
Jill: – kind of a fantasy setup for me. I’ve always wanted to do a story where a guy and a girl knew each other, say, back in high school, and for whatever reason, the guy really screwed up, and the girl has held a grudge. Ten years go by, and he walks accidentally back into her world, and she sees him and is ticked all over again. So that’s basically the setup for The Trouble with Mistletoe. Our hero, Keane Winters, screwed up in high school without even knowing, and Willa Davis, our heroine, has never forgotten. I mean, she’s moved on –
Sarah: Are you, are you trying to tell me that men can, can be oblivious?
Jill: [Laughs] Completely, one hundred percent oblivious.
Sarah: Oh, I see!
[Laughter]
Jill: So Willa owns and runs a little pet shop in this building I was telling you about in the Cow Hollow district, and she also, on the side, does, like, a little daycare thing for pets. When people go to work in the City and they need her to watch their pets while they’re at work, she takes them in. So she’s happily at work one morning when some cute guy, sexy guy comes knocking on the door looking really irritated, holding a bedazzled cat, cat carrier, and –
Sarah: As you do.
Jill: As you do. And he needs a, a cat sitter, and she takes one look at him and realizes she knows exactly who he is, and she remembers what he’s done, and he doesn’t even recognize her.
Sarah: Ouch!
Jill: Yeah. So that’s the setup.
Sarah: Oh, my. And so he’s stuck with this cat –
Jill: Yeah.
Sarah: – ‘cause clearly he did not bedazzle –
Jill: For reasons – [laughs] yes – for reasons you can read the book to find out, let’s just say he doesn’t like cats, but his aunt, well, you know, he’s trying to do a good thing for his aunt who’s sick, and he’s – the cat hates him, and he’s desperate to get to work, and the, he’s tired of the cat pooping in his shoes while he’s gone, so he needs a daycare.
Sarah: Yes. And the cat needs a break.
Jill: The cat needs a break. [Laughs]
Sarah: So when you, when you’re writing a book, though, there’s a lot of, like you said, there, you write humorous contemporaries, funny, funny contemporaries, and there’s also, not a slapstick element, but there’s a lot of situational and dialogue comedy –
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – which is great fun. Do you, do you sort of grab moments and put them aside or –
Jill: Yes. [Laughs]
Sarah: – read a lot of really troublesome Facebook people? [Laughs]
Jill: I do! I read everything, I’ll read the back of cereal box, but I take notes. I mean, if you could see – I don’t use my desk, but I have one, and it’s covered, literally, in a mountain of napkins and little pieces of paper and things ripped out of magazines, just ‘cause every time I find something that makes me laugh I write it down, and then I save it and I use it.
Sarah: So you probably follow a lot of people on Facebook who are there –
Jill: And Instagram, mm-hmm.
Sarah: Yes. And they are there to present a warning to the rest of us.
Jill: Correct, and I use ‘em ruthlessly. [Laughs]
Sarah: When you’re writing scenes, do they have to make you laugh?
Jill: Yes! And if they don’t, then, then I miss. I mean, and as with any comedy, and especially, I mean, I’m sure this happens to comedians as well, some jokes just, you think are funny and they’re not, so I go for it in the first draft, and then in the second draft, if they don’t make me laugh, they have to come out.
Sarah: Ouch.
Jill: Yeah.
Sarah: That’s a harsh way to kill your darlings.
Jill: I know, it hurts, but what are you going to do?
Sarah: It’s true. So you’ve written a lot of different tropes. You’ve had friends to lovers, you have enemies to lovers, you have –
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – people who at one point had a really traumatic interaction, but only one of them remembers it.
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: There’s a lot of second chance and starting over and accidental meet cute caught in a place and can’t escape.
Jill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Do you have a favorite trope that you’re just, like, I love writing this story. I love writing this type of conflict. Do you have a favorite?
Jill: I think probably my favorite is friends to lovers.
Sarah: Yeah, I am a big fan of that one too.
Jill: Yeah. It just, there’s a lot to work with there, especially if, like in this case, not really friends to lovers. You know, like, they’re mad at each other ‘til – I just like playing with that. I like a history. I try not to do that too much, but I really like it when they have a history.
Sarah: And there’s a lot of dialogue that can come out of that.
Jill: Yes, yes.
Sarah: And then you get to sort of introduce the reader to their private jokes.
Jill: Yes, and I can do that through other characters that are new, that aren’t, don’t have the history.
Sarah: Now, you said earlier that you hadn’t re-released your earliest books.
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: Because they are early, early examples of your writing, and you’re like, let’s just keep those with –
Jill: Yes. [Laughs]
Sarah: Do you ever wish you – if you were to go back in time and talk to Jill Who Just Started Out in, was that, 2004? Have you been writing more than ten years?
Jill: Yes. I think actually my first book came out in 1998 or -9.
Sarah: Holy smokes! That’s almost –
Jill: Yeah.
Sarah: – twenty years!
Jill: Yes, I started when I was five.
Sarah: Of course you did! Absolutely!
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: Prodigy all the way.
Jill: Yeah, maybe not twenty years. I mean, close. I –
Sarah: Yeah!
Jill: – I think it’s eighteen.
Sarah: But, like, do you ever look back at all the books that you wrote and go, how the hell did I do that?!
Jill: All the time.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jill: I can’t, you know, every time I start a book I think, okay, the last one was it. That’s all I’ve got.
[Laughter]
Sarah: I don’t know how to do this. This is going to suck, and –
Jill: Uh-huh. I blew my wad; I’m done.
Sarah: Yep. And then you, you get to a point where you’re like, okay, maybe it doesn’t suck, and then the next chapter –
Jill: Yeah.
Sarah: – no, this is terrible.
Jill: Yes. Yes.
Sarah: Every time.
Jill: Every time. Every time! It never gets easier.
Sarah: No, it’s awful that way, isn’t it?
Jill: But, I’m uniquely suited to do nothing else. I mean, I can’t, I couldn’t do, you know, I often joke about going to work for Taco Bell or Target, but I would be terrible at customer service. [Laughs] I just –
Sarah: You wouldn’t want to, like, deal with people all day?
Jill: No, I would –
Sarah: Why the hell not?
Jill: I don’t have the patience for it.
Sarah: [Laughs] When, when –
Jill: I barely have the patience for this.
[Laughter]
Sarah: What, recording a podcast and being asked nosy questions?
Jill: No, writing.
Sarah: Oh, writing!
Jill: Yeah, yeah.
Sarah: So it’s always hard when you start out again.
Jill: It’s always hard. I mean, the best day is when I write The End. Awesome.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jill: That’s the best day. That’s when I love writing, when it’s done. [Laughs]
Sarah: Oh, I did it, yay!
Jill: One more time, whoo!
Sarah: Now, you recently wrote an article for the Romance Writers Report about how you’ll stop a book, like, you’ll start your day’s writing, like, right in the middle of a sentence?
Jill: Yes, and this is to help – I have ADHD, and I’m not medicated, so I have a lot of attention problems. It’s very hard for me to stay focused, so when I end – I have a goal each day of how many words I want to write, and when I get there I literally stop, and I try to stop in the middle of a scene so that the, the next morning it’s not so hard for me. I know exactly where I’m at.
Sarah: And you know where you left off.
Jill: Yes, and there’s nothing worse, for me, than a blank page. You know, to stare at a blank page and, where am I going? So that’s why I do it that way.
Sarah: Do you outline or sketch, or do you just sort of figure–
Jill: No, I –
Sarah: – I know her, I know him, we’re going to go over here, and we’ll see how I get there?
Jill: I can’t do that, and I think part of that’s the ADHD. I would never get there. So I do extensive plotting beforehand.
Sarah: And do you, like, write it all out by hand, or do you just draw an outline on your computer?
Jill: I do an – it’s all on my computer.
Sarah: You write it in the snow, don’t you?
Jill: Yeah – [laughs] – I write it in the snow, and then when it melts I cry.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jill: I, I did, I do an outline on my computer, and, and I’d start out with a synopsis, and I break it down, and I try to do it chapter by chapter, even.
Sarah: And what’s, like, a typical word count per day for you?
Jill: About two thousand words, which, I know, most writers are doing four or even five, but I, I can, I find two thousand words is the right pace for me.
Sarah: Well, if you know the pace that works for you, then it’s the right pace.
Jill: It is, and I do it every day. If I’m in the middle of a book, I don’t take a day off. I write seven days a week until the book is done, and then I try to take time off between books.
Sarah: Recharge your brain?
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Totally. So with your, if you notice, I’m, I’m, I’m asking – this is a bit of a nosy question – my, my husband’s cousin is a musician, and he also has ADHD, and he doesn’t like the medication because it makes him unable to compose on multiple bars at the same time.
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: So if he wants to compose, like, four different instruments and he takes medication, he can’t do it, but if he can –
Jill: Correct.
Sarah: – his brain needs to be like, okay, I can do this one and that one and this one over here, and this is going to sound like that –
Jill: Mm-hmm. [Laughs]
Sarah: – and he’s got four bars composed. Is that similar to how your brain works as well?
Jill: Yes. My brain is like trying to watch eight TVs all at the same time on different channels.
[Laughter]
Jill: That’s how it is for me. It’s really hard –
Sarah: But that’s how the book gets made.
Jill: That’s how the book gets made, and if I take medicine I get tired and I get focused on one thing, and if that one thing is cleaning my toilet or going grocery shopping, then that’s what that’s going to be. It’s too hard.
Sarah: And the book doesn’t get done.
Jill: And the book doesn’t get done.
Sarah: I always figure that part of figuring out a creative enterprise for yourself and figuring out how you’re going to be creative is partially getting to know how your own brain works and just accepting that your brain does its thing, and that’s how it is.
Jill: Yes. Yes, and I’m actually quite jealous of, most other writers write a clean, pretty copy, and they get to the end, and it’s the end. The truth is that when I get to the end of my first draft, it’s an ugly, rough first draft that I would die if anybody saw. In fact, I always tell my husband, if I die tomorrow and I haven’t fixed this rough draft yet, you tell my editor the book didn’t get written.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jill: Don’t you dare give her this copy. She’s not allowed to have it! So, because it does take me weeks and weeks after to go through and layer in the heart and the soul and the funny and, you know, to make it right. And then I’m envious –
Sarah: And that’s part of the process.
Jill: It’s part of my processes, and, and I’m really envious because most other writers seem to be able to do it in a much faster, more organized fashion than I do.
Sarah: And you write out of order.
Jill: I, sometimes I do write out of order.
Sarah: Like I said, you’ve got to kind of make friends with your brain.
Jill: You’ve got to go, you’ve got to go with it. [Laughs]
Sarah: Okay, brain. Like, I had to learn that my brain never knows what day it is, what time it is.
Jill: Yes, yes.
Sarah: I don’t ever get the date right. I don’t know what year it is sometimes; I have to sit and think about it. My kids get all bent out of shape, ‘cause I’m like, how old are you?
Jill: [Laughs] That’s, that’s exactly –
Sarah: It’s a number. I don’t, me and my, my brain and I, with numbers, we’re not good friends.
Jill: No.
Sarah: But I accept this about myself, and I just have to strategize around it.
Jill: Yes, I’m the same exact way. I mean, may-, maybe it’s the creative brain, ‘cause you’re creative too.
Sarah: Oh, thank you! I try to be.
Jill: You are. I read your stuff.
Sarah: Oh, thank you.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Thank you! God, you read one of the earliest drafts of my novella!
Jill: Yes, I did.
Sarah: Holy shit, that was, like, three, five years ago.
Jill: And I loved it!
Sarah: Oh, thank you! I still look at that and go, holy shit, how the hell did I do that? Did I do – that, that has my name on it, so I must have done it, but I don’t know how I did that!
Jill: You did it. I loved it. That summer camp story was awesome.
Sarah: Thank you! Yay, Hanukah!
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: So how many holiday stories have you written? [Coughs] Excuse me. I don’t remember – I remember a lot of brides and a lot of spring, but I don’t remember a lot of holiday stories.
Jill: You know, I can’t even, I don’t think I have that many brides. I, I don’t, the, I do have maybe three Christmas novellas –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jill: – from Lucky Harbor. I have one coming out in November for this Heartbreaker Bay series called One Snowy Night. That comes out on –
Sarah: Which has a great cover, by the way.
Jill: Yeah, isn’t it cute? I loved it!
Sarah: It’s such a good cover.
Jill: Really cute, and it truly is that, that is the plot. You see two people snowed in in the car. [Laughs]
Sarah: And that’s it?
Jill: That’s it!
Sarah: See, I, see this, this is why I love being snowed in.
Jill: Uh-huh.
Sarah: Because as long as you’re not in danger of frostbite, you have heat and running water, and you have food, you’re not in mortal peril, it’s just really annoying.
Jill: That’s it. Well, these two are in mortal peril from each other, but –
Sarah: Well, even better.
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: Small confined spaces, lots of snow –
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: – can’t go anywhere: what could possibly go wrong?
Jill: And he has a hundred-pound dog named Carl, so, he’s taking up a lot of the air. [Laughs]
Sarah: And I’m guessing that Carl is probably flatulent?
Jill: [Laughs] No, actually.
Sarah: Aw, bummer.
Jill: But he does, he does like to go outside a lot, so they have to keep stopping.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jill: They’re on their way, coincidentally, from Heartbreaker Bay to Tahoe on Christmas Eve when they get, when they hit a very big storm and have some problems.
Sarah: Oh, darn.
Jill: Inside and outside.
Sarah: And when does that, when does that come out?
Jill: November 8th.
Sarah: So you have an October book and a November novella.
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: Nice!
Jill: Yes. Both Christmas – well, yeah. Holiday stories, I should say.
Sarah: That must have been fun. So you probably wrote those in, like, July.
Jill: Yes, I did, actually, I, well –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jill: – yes, in spring, and I think I did write the novella in June and July. But I enjoy that, you know, that was fun. I love writing holiday stories, and I love writing winter stories.
Sarah: Well, I mean, where you live it’s winter most of the time.
Jill: [Laughs] Yes.
Sarah: I remember at one point you telling me that your family went skiing on, like, the first day of summer or, like, July 5th or something?
Jill: Yeah, you can ski at Squaw Valley, usually, until July 4th.
Sarah: So is there anything on your, All Right, Some Day I’m Going to Write That list? Is there anything that you’re like, okay, I mean, I, I really want to write this. I hope I get to do this someday?
Jill: Yeah, you know, I, I always say this, and people kind of groan, but I do really want to write witches.
Sarah: No, I’m not going to groan! I’m going to say, give me witches right now!
Jill: Yeah, that’s in my –
Sarah: I love witches! Like, I seriously think that – I love, I have a secret love, when people ask me about trends, because –
Jill: Oh.
Sarah: – I don’t frigging know!
Jill: I don’t either.
Sarah: I’m looking at what’s being published now. I couldn’t tell you what the trends are, but I realized that if I just talk about what I want, it might become a trend! So it’s totally selfish.
Jill: [Laughs] Let’s bring witches back!
Sarah: Exactly! I love witches, and here’s why: lots of women who have to have each others’ backs, who have to take care of each other, even if they may not like each other, who are, who have to work together in a specific, prescribed way, who’ve got mad power and secrets. I am so here for this.
Jill: Yes, let’s do it. So, I’ve always wanted to do, you know, I, I love Charmed, for instance. I think that’s what started my witches love. I don’t know if you ever watched that show.
Sarah: Oh, yes.
Jill: Yeah, so, yeah. That’s what I intend to do someday.
Sarah: You should read Labyrinth Lost.
Jill: Who wrote it?
Sarah: Zoraida Cordova. It just came out.
Jill: Okay.
Sarah: It’s a YA fantasy, very light on the romance, but it’s about a family of witches in Brooklyn. They’re all brujas. There’s, like, an Alice in Wonderland fantasy element, but one of the things that it was inspired by was Charmed.
Jill: Oh, really!
Sarah: It’s like, it’s so rad! But, yes, if you were to just be like, you know what? Paranormal.
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: You could totally do witches! Oh, my God, I would read the shit out of that.
Jill: Okay. Well, we’ll talk. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yes. Somewhere, somewhere there’s someone at Avon who’s like, God damn it, Sarah! Just shut up! Making trouble!
Jill: You know it! [Laughs] They’re like, no! Cut!
Sarah: When you look back at your writing from Loveswept to Harlequin to Kensington and then through all of the publishers, what’s, what are some of the things that have changed, and what are some of the things that have stayed the same for you?
Jill: Well, I think the things that have stayed the same are family and a sense of community and setting, contemporary setting. Things that have changed are, I hope I do better with women and doing right by them and feminist stuff and making them strong and not weak, and I think probably I’m a little sharper with the humor now. I think I’m sexier now than I used to be. Overall, in general, I just think you hone the craft every time you write a book, so I hope to God I’m getting better with each book.
[Laughter]
Sarah: I think as long as – it’s sort of like a muscle, I think. If I, if you don’t use it, it doesn’t get as strong, but if you’re using it –
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: – regularly, it, it keeps becoming stronger.
Jill: Let’s hope.
Sarah: One of the things that’s, I think, a continued theme in your books is that you have heroines who are finding their resiliency.
Jill: Yeah, that’s important to me, strong women. I’m raising women and hopefully giving them some, some of that. It’s important to me.
Sarah: And they, and, and your characters do that in, in that they often end up in situations where they’re like, well, crap. Now what do I do?
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: And they have to figure it out on their own.
Jill: Yeah, I like that. I like, you know, taking a character, and what’s the worst thing that could happen to you, and then give them something even worse than that, and then watching them dig their way back up.
Sarah: And if you have people who don’t always take themselves too seriously, it’s funny.
Jill: Yeah! I mean, I think you can find the funny in, in even the worst situations, and I just tend to try to do that. I think you should be funny. I think, I think everyday life is a lot easier if you can find the humor.
Sarah: Now, one of the things that I know is a big community builder for you as a writer is your blog and your social media.
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: That must be a very quick writing job for you, because you post a lot, and as a blogger I know that that does take time.
Jill: It does, and that’s, I think you’re seeing the ADHD at its finest there.
[Laughter]
Jill: You know, part of it is you, when you’re a writer, you know this, you’re alone. You’re alone all day long, and –
Sarah: Yep.
Jill: – so basically it’s –
Sarah: Isn’t it great?
Jill: Yeah, it is great! It’s awesome –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jill: – but it also, sometimes you need an outlet, and so my blog started, and I was generally just talking to myself, and then people started showing up, so that was awesome. And then Facebook and Instagram came along, and I’m a very, you know, I’m an instant gratification type of girl, so I love, I have all this beauty around me, and I have the great animals around me, and I just really, I’m a photographer. I love, love, love to take pictures, so it was a natural outlet for me. I know people probably think I’m online a lot, but the truth is I go on, I post, I get out. I mean, I just really like sharing, and if the, if people are enjoying it, great. It’s not necessarily, for me, a promotional tool, because I’m not really talking about my books. I’m really just sharing myself like I, anybody would.
Sarah: But you’ve also managed to specifically hone the things that you talk about, which I think is really important for someone building a public persona. You talk about your pets and you talk about where you live, and you show pictures of trees, and you show occasional pictures of your kids now that they’re all grown.
Jill: Mm-hmm. I had to be careful there, yeah.
Sarah: You have a – and, and you have a very specific set of things you talk about that are all things that you’re genuinely enthusiastic about.
Jill: Yes, and I just happen to have the benefit of, my tone as, as Jill the person is, is the same as what I write, so that, that does –
Sarah: That helps!
Jill: That helps. That helps a lot.
Sarah: I always feel, like, fascinated by the people who write dark and, and murky and scary, and then in real life they’re like, yeah, okay, whatever, it’s fine.
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: Whatevs. No big deal.
Jill: I know. Yeah, that’s not me. What you see is what you get.
[Laughter]
Sarah: So what are you working on right now?
Jill: I’m, I’m reading the final edits of the, Accidentally on Purpose, which is the third book, comes out after The Trouble with Mistletoe, and I’m working on my first, I don’t know how, it’s a bigger book, it comes out in June, it’s called Lost and Found Sisters. It’s not part of the Heartbreaker Bay series. It will be in trade format.
Sarah: Ooh!
Jill: And it’s, it’s basically Jill Shalvis meets – I don’t want to say women’s fiction, because I’m like, I guess it’s a hybrid. Let’s call it a hybrid between romance and women’s fiction.
Sarah: So it’s Jill Shalvis meets Robyn Carr.
Jill: Well, I think Robyn Carr is women’s fiction, and she does a wonderful job. She’s warm and, and deep, and I don’t think Lost and Found Sisters is that?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jill: I think maybe – gosh, I, I’d really, I think you’re just going to have to read it and see. I think it’s just Jill Shalvis but a little bit deeper and longer and more in depth and more people.
Sarah: And this is with Avon?
Jill: Yes. It’ll be –
Sarah: That’s so cool!
Jill: – it’ll be Morrow, trade Morrow.
Sarah: That’s awesome!
Jill: Yeah, thank you, I’m excited about it.
Sarah: Way to go. So you’re working on that now.
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: Do you know about how long it takes you to, to read, to, to write a book?
Jill: Well, normally it takes me three months, three and a half months. This book is longer –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jill: – so I’m going to say maybe four and a half months, five months for this one.
Sarah: Every day writing, no breaks.
Jill: No breaks. Well, you know, I say that, but then, you know, the last few months, you know, it just seems like something every day. A kid is sick, a car is broken, travel is required – [laughs] – so –
Sarah: I know!
Jill: – I do the best I can, but a lot of interruptions lately, it seems like. But I think any working mom has this.
Sarah: Totally.
Jill: So –
Sarah: I think anybody who’s managing home and family and any responsibilities for your house and –
Jill: Absolutely.
Sarah: – for your job and anything has to manage –
Jill: Yep.
Sarah: – oh, okay, we’re doing this now! Okay –
Jill: Yep.
Sarah: – change of plans.
Jill: Yeah! I mean, I’m tired, I, long days, but you, you do what you’ve got to do.
Sarah: It’s true! So, the question I always ask people when I’m doing a podcast is what are you reading or what have you read recently that you would really like people to know about?
Jill: I just read, I just read the latest Harry Potter, and I’m a huge, huge Harry Potter fan.
Sarah: The Cursed Child?
Jill: Yes, yes, and I know it’s in playwright format, so it’s not going to be for everybody. I loved it. I inhaled it.
Sarah: Yeah?
Jill: Did you?
Sarah: I have not read it yet, but I know that Carrie reviewed it for us, and she basically said the same thing. I see the flaws, and I see the limitations of this format, but it was wonderful.
Jill: It was wonderful.
Sarah: What did you like about it?
Jill: Well, it, witches, hello, even though they’re younger than I would write.
Sarah: Yes.
Jill: I just loved every-, I love everything about the Harry Potter world, everything. So it brought me right back to that. It’s a, it was a comfort read, let’s say that.
Sarah: I can see that being true. Are there any other books that you’ve read that you want to tell people about?
Jill: I am drawing a complete blank!
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jill: Oh, no! I did just read a wonderful book. I just read Colleen Hoover’s It Ends with Us and loved it. It was just, I loved the emotion of it. I just, I really connected with her characters; I always do.
Sarah: I’m looking very quickly at the, at the, at the description because there are so many books with exploding flowers on the cover that I can’t keep ‘em all straight. [Laughs]
Jill: Yeah, I know. You can’t go, it’s like, this is a funny thing for me. I’m reading on my Kindle, so I’m not reading real, “real” books, so I pay absolutely zero attention to the covers now, because they’re not in my hands.
Sarah: And you don’t see them, and if you do –
Jill: I don’t even see ‘em.
Sarah: – see them on your Kindle they’re in black and white, or gray and white or –
Jill: Yeah! So, I, I don’t even pay attention anymore.
Sarah: I look at so many covers because it’s often, the visual is the only thing that I remember?
Jill: Yes.
Sarah: And so it, I don’t remember titles and names nearly ever, but I will, I can describe to you perfectly what different covers look like.
Jill: Oh, that’s interesting.
Sarah: So, I, I pay attention, ‘cause otherwise I would never know what it was.
Jill: So you’re not reading on Kindle.
Sarah: Nonono, I’m reading digitally, almost always digitally, because then I can control the text size and make it more comfortable for me –
Jill: Mm-hmm, me too.
Sarah: – and if I’m not reading on my phone I’m reading on a Kindle. I rarely read paper because I can’t make the text bigger.
Jill: I know.
Sarah: And I –
Jill: And I can’t read in bed at night anymore because if you’re holding the flashlight and you’re trying to balance the book, you’re going to get a black eye. It’s going to happen. [Laughs]
Sarah: Oh, yeah, I’ve dropped my phone on my face, and that hurt. Imagine a flashlight. Forget that.
Jill: Uh-huh.
Sarah: So I almost always read digitally, but I, when I’m making my, my to-read lists and I’m coordinating what I’m going to try to read and review, I always go and look at the cover so that I remember a visual image that goes with the book, because if I don’t, I will look at the title and be like, I don’t – what is this? Do I own this?
Jill: Yeah.
Sarah: Do I have, I have this? What is this? If I’ve looked at the cover, the, the title will stick better in my brain.
Jill: Yeah, that’s –
Sarah: Like I said, my brain is weird.
Jill: Well, you’re, we’re similar, we’re similar. I think something else I’m, I’ve, I’ve gotten, and I can’t remember the title, is the latest J. R. Ward, and that’s my next up to read, because I love her Black Dagger Brotherhood series so much. Vampires.
Sarah: Yeah, there’s a lot of them.
Jill: I know. And I also have the latest Susan Elizabeth Phillips on my pile to read, and I’m excited about that one.
Sarah: Ooh. The, the newest J. R. Ward is The Beast, right?
Jill: Yeah, I think that’s it. Wait. Is that the latest? I have two of them, actually.
Sarah: Oh, dude, two back to back? You’re going to disappear –
Jill: Yeah.
Sarah: – for, like, two weeks!
Jill: I know, no, I’m fast.
Sarah: Well, that’s probably a good thing, ‘cause then you can, you know, get back on the book.
Jill: Yes, yes. And I do go long stretches without reading. It’s hard for me to read when I’m in the middle of writing a book. How ‘bout you? What are you reading?
Sarah: I’m rereading a YA by Stephanie Perkins called – of course I can see the cover and –
Jill: See, it’s harder than it sounds, huh?
Sarah: – and it’s the cover – there’ve been two. The first – this is so embarrassing – the first cover had a couple sitting on a bench in front of the Eiffel Tower, and the title was written on the bench, and the next one is just a picture of the Fr-, of the Eiffel Tower – Anna and the French Kiss!
Jill: [Laughs]
Sarah: I guarantee you, when this airs, someone is going to have been screaming the title at air –
Jill: Yes, the whole time. [Laughs]
Sarah: – the whole time, because I’m just like, you know, it’s Paris. It, Anna and the French Kiss is about a, a girl who goes to her senior year of high school at a boarding school in Paris, doesn’t really want to, and ends up making wonderful friends and has this guy that she’s completely crushing on who (a) has a girlfriend and (b) her new best friend also crushes on him, so he’s, like, doubly off limits, but she learns to figure out how to navigate a new place when everything is completely different and she doesn’t speak the language, so there’s the Paris part, and there’s the off-limits guy part.
Jill: Nice.
Sarah: Super addictive. So I’m rereading that, and I just reread one of my favorite contemporaries called Act Like It?
Jill: Oh, by who?
Sarah: Oh, dude, you would love this book. Okay, so Act Like It is by Lucy Parker. It came out last year, and it was, it was so good that when I finished it I turned around and read it again.
Jill: Oh, I love when that happens.
Sarah: Oh, it’s so rare, but it’s so good. So Act Like It is –
Jill: Act Like It.
Sarah: Seriously, you will love this book. It is –
Jill: Okay.
Sarah: – set in the London theatre world. The heroine is a stage actress. The hero is a stage actress, and she’s just been dumped by one of the costars in the play that they’re both in, but she, she found out that they were broken up when a gossip magazine told her that he was now dating someone else.
Jill: Oh, no! [Laughs]
Sarah: So he didn’t even bother to tell her, and now she has to pretend to fall in love and kiss this guy that she’d really like to punch in the nose.
Jill: Okay.
Sarah: So the setup is a fake relationship.
Jill: I love that too.
Sarah: Oh, my gosh, it’s so good! So the hero is grumpy and very, very famous and a little bit, like, very taciturn and extremely talented, kind of modeled off, like, Richard Armitage, only even more grumpy?
Jill: Mm?
Sarah: And he has political aspirations within the theatre world in, in, in England, and his public reputation is becoming worse and worse because it’s really easy to get him to lose his temper, and then people can make it look like he did horrible things when he didn’t, because people just believe that someone who’s so grumpy is generally going to be an asshole –
Jill: Mm.
Sarah: – even though the stories are exaggerated, and the theatre is starting to lose tickets. People aren’t buying tickets to see him, and they sort of blame his declining reputation, so the theatre manager, the publicist, and his agent get together, and they’re like, okay, we had a surge in ticket sales when you guys were photographed leaving a party together, and she’s like, we left at the same time. Like, we didn’t even talk to each other; we just left the door at the same moment. But apparently that picture spurred some interest in the show, so to convince them to have this fake relationship, the theatre manager – because she has nothing to gain, really. She’s sort of like, why should I even do this? The theatre manager agrees to give two Saturday performance profits to her charity that she runs and is involved with if she will pretend to be dating him for, you know, a certain period of time.
Jill: Oh, that’s a good setup.
Sarah: Oh, God. And it’s so good. It’s extremely – [sighs] – there needs to be a better word for this, but the world in which it’s set is so real and so detailed that you, you’re in the theatre scene with these characters. It’s so, you’re going to love this book, seriously. It’s so good, I can’t believe I haven’t told you about it, and I apologize for that. It is so good! And the, the, the way that the characters talk, there’s so much dialogue, especially because she’s the type of person who’s like, I do not have to be intimidated by you, and I certainly don’t have to put up with your bullshit, so if we’re actually dating, I’m going to tell you when you’re being an asshole. Ha-ha! Won’t that be fun! He’s like, what is this crap?! Oh, it’s so good.
Jill: [Laughs] I’ve never even heard of this book!
Sarah: Oh, my gosh, it’s so good, you need to read it! It is so, it is, it is one of those delightful books where you’re like, oh! That’s why I like contemporary romance!
Jill: Nice.
Sarah: Oh, my gosh! And it’s, it, and, and I’m craving, like, books set in, in other places? Like, I like it when the char-, when the setting is a character.
Jill: Yes, me too.
Sarah: When setting is a character, I’m very happy. Like –
Jill: You know who does that well?
Sarah: Who?
Jill: Is Sarah Morgan with, with her New York series.
Sarah: Oh, yes. Yes. She’s really good at setting these –
Jill: She’s great at sexy contemporary funny.
Sarah: She does write the sexy, but she’s also good at making the setting part of the character –
Jill: Exactly.
Sarah: – and it, and it, it informs what the characters do. Like, she used to write medicals for Harlequin/Mills & Boon, and some of them were set in Cornwall, and I learned this summer that small town in the mountains with, like, a cupcake shop to the US –
Jill: Yeah.
Sarah: – is Cornwall to English readers. Like, anything in Cornwall, Cornish countryside is, and a tea shop, is small town romance in England.
Jill: Nice.
Sarah: So she used to write medicals set in Cornwall with, like, midwives running around fields delivering babies, and it’s wonder- – oh, she has a skiing one. Have you ever read it?
Jill: Which one?
Sarah: Sarah Morgan wrote a medical with a skiing –
Jill: Oh, I definitely didn’t read her – I haven’t read her medicals. Oh, my la-, I just read HelenKay Dimon, who’s a friend of both of ours, and –
Sarah: Oh –
Jill: – her December book, I got to read ahead of time. I think it’s called The Fixer.
Sarah: Oh, awesome! Did you like it?
Jill: Yeah. Loved it, loved it. Oh, and you know what else I read? And this is an older one, and this is witches!
Sarah: I’m listening!
Jill: A discovery, A Discovery of Witches by Deborah Harkness. Did you ever read that?
Sarah: No, I have never read it because I’ve heard so many mixed things, I’ve never been sure if I wanted to. So you think I should read it?
Jill: Well, I found it to be like a grown-up Harry Potter, so it kind of filled that little spot that I needed filled?
Sarah: Totally.
Jill: So you may, I mean, give it a try!
Sarah: I will! All right.
Jill: There’s a vampire in that one too, which I also, yeah. I like vampires.
Sarah: I don’t mind vampires. I get a little tired of them being, like, mopey? Like, come on!
Jill: [Laughs] Yeah.
Sarah: Quit moping! God almighty, you’ve had a lot of time to get over this problem. Could you just get over it?
Jill: Yes! You’re immortal! What do you have to be grumpy about? [Laughs]
Sarah: God almighty. All right, I am pretty sure that the skiing doctor is, skiing medical is called for – oh, Lord – Dr. Zinetti’s Snowkissed Bride.
Jill: Oh, wait, is that –
Sarah: There’s, she –
Jill: I –
Sarah: – the heroine, the heroine’s on a mountain rescue team –
Jill: What’s the cover?
Sarah: The cover that I can see – and I don’t think I can see any prior covers – the medicals have, like, a big sort of teal blue stripe across the lower third –
Jill: Yeah.
Sarah: – and he’s sort of, he’s got, like, a cap on, and they’re both wearing winter coats, and he’s got his arm around her.
Jill: I think I have that one. I do have that one.
[music]
Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. I hope you enjoyed my conversation. As I noted in the intro, all of the books and things that we talked about will be linked to in the podcast entry at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.
And I want to make sure to mention that her latest book, The Trouble with Mistletoe, just went on sale on Tuesday, on September 27th, three days ago? Well, yeah, four days ago. Either way, you can find it wherever books are sold, in print and in eBook.
Our music is provided by Sassy Outwater. This is “Mackerel & Tatties” by Michael McGoldrick from his album Aurora. You can find it on Amazon, on iTunes, or wherever you like to buy your fine music.
And if you are thinking to yourself, self, I would like to email this show, or I would like to leave a voicemail for this show, you should totally do that! You can email me at [email protected], or you can call and leave a voicemail at 1-201-371-3272, or if the phone number thing doesn’t work for you, you can record a voice memo and then email it to me at [email protected]. If you’ve got suggestions or questions, or you need a book recommendation, or you want to tell us about the book that turned you into a romance reader, I would like to hear about it! So please call or email or something, because you are all most excellent.
And if you would like to support the show, I invite you to have a look at our Patreon campaign at Patreon.com/SmartBitches. Your contributions mean an enormous amount to me, so thank you for having a look, for supporting the show, for sharing the link, and most of all for being here each week. I have said this several times recently, but I love doing the podcast, and I love hearing how much you enjoy it, so thank you for choosing this show and tuning in and writing and calling and tweeting and hanging out with me. I love it so much! So thank you.
And on behalf of Jill Shalvis and myself and everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a very good weekend.
[happy music]
This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.
I don’t know if the nice author lady (hi, there, I’ve read two or three of your books and I liked them very much, so good on you!) will ever see this, but I know you strongly urged Act Like It? I read the review of Act Like It originally, and bought it, and then held off for a pretty good amount of time, because I knew I would love it, and in all seriousness? SO GOOD. SO, SO GOOD. I just wanted to hop on a plane and be a theater actor in the West End, even though I know crapwhistles about acting or being British.
If you like books with witches you MUST read The Cahill Witch Chronicles, a trilogy by Jessica Spotswood that begins with Born Wicked. It’s about 3 teenager sisters who are all witches in an alternate version of colonial New England. Everything is controlled by a patriarchal group called The Brotherhood and there’s a dark prophecy about the sisters and their magic and there is romance. It has all the things and it is amazing!
While I was typing the transcript, I was thinking about what Jill said about her writing process producing messy first drafts that need a lot of revision, unlike other writers. I read Jennifer Crusie’s blog pretty regularly and she talks a lot about her process, which sounds something like Jill’s and produces messy first drafts that need a lot of revision. I think Jill’s in good company there. As Ms. Crusie says of writing, “There are many roads to Oz.”
I loved Discovery of Witches, and the rest of the trilogy too! It was Outlander meets the best parts of Twilight (without so much angst). Throw in a bit of witch-y (a la Nora) and a ton of really good history, and it was definitely my catnip. Highly recommend!
This was a really good interview! I am in a huge contemporary mood, so I really need to check Jill out!
I am also here for witchces.