258. Mindfulness, Meditation, and Writing: An Interview with Eva Leigh and Nico Rosso

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 258 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Book, a podcast that is all about romance, the women who read and write it, and why all of those things are awesome. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and I am really excited about the next few podcasts. I recorded a bunch of interviews at RWA in Orlando; this is the first of them.

I am talking with Zoe Archer, who is also known as Eva Leigh, and Nico Rosso about mindfulness. They did a workshop at RWA and focused on mindfulness and writing, so I wanted to talk about the connections between those two things. We start the interview with the gift of a scarf that I found that looks like it’s patterned with a feminine napkin complete with, with wings – like, it’s a pretty ghastly pattern – and because Zoe and I have traded pictures of unintentional yoni on clothing and handbags, I had to make sure that this scarf was something she could wear on a regular basis. Almost monthly, maybe. Then we talk about their mindfulness workshop. They explain the way that they employ mindfulness, what it means for them, how to define it and explain it, and how it relates to their jobs as writers. We also talk about managing anxiety and depression, so please be aware that we do talk about managing symptoms of mental illness and reactions to triggers, but we don’t talk about the triggers themselves specifically. We also talk about self compassion and the, and developing the habit of being kind to yourself, their writing habits, and the way writing processes can change.

Now, I have a couple of compliments to give out, and then I have some big, big thank-yous, so this is fun.

First, to Deirdre D.: Your style and generosity have inspired several of your friends to be themselves fearlessly, in part because they admire you so much for being yourself.

For Beth P.: Regular parties are thrown in small pockets of magical creatures’ underground lairs because you are worth celebrating all the time.

And to Hai S. (I hope I said your name right): The best thing about you is pretty much everything. The world is in awe of what you can do and how much joy you share every day.

And if you’re thinking, well, that was fun! I would love a handcrafted, heartfelt compliment, head on over to patreon.com/SmartBitches. For as little as one, two, three, or five, or however many dollars per month, you can help support the show, help keep it becoming excellent and improving each time I try to do one – everything is a learning process – and at certain reward levels, you get handcrafted, personalized compliments, deeply heartfelt, by yours truly!

Now, I have to thank everyone who supports the show on Patreon, because without your support I would not have been able to purchase the upgraded equipment that I used to record these interviews, and as I was editing them, I was really humbled by the quality of the audio that I get from the microphones and the recorder that I use, and that would not have been possible without Patreon support, so thank you very, very much for that.

And speaking of RWA, I want to thank everyone who came to see me at the signing. That was so cool! So many people stopped by my table to say hi and to tell me how much they like the site and how much they enjoy the podcast, so I want to say hi to Kelly and Sara(h) and Jacqueline and everyone who stopped by my table. I am so happy that the site and the podcast are part of your day, so thank you so much for coming to tell me that. It completely made my week.

The music you’re listening to was provided by Sassy Outwater. I will have information at the end of the podcast as to who this is.

And if you’re looking for some of the books and apps that we mention in this episode, you can find them at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, or you can find recent books and recent episodes at iTunes.com/DBSA. I will have links to the books that they mention, the apps for meditation and mindfulness that they recommend, plus I will have a picture of Zoe in her most excellent scarf, which she says she will treasure always. Heh-heh-heh-heh.

I do have some more interviews coming up that I recorded at RWA, and I am so excited to share them. And again, I have to thank everyone who has supported the show on Patreon. I am wildly excited to work with this incredible equipment and to experiment with improving the audio, because the audio quality is so great.

So maybe you should hear the audio now. Sound like a good idea? All right, I’m going to stop talking; it’s time for the podcast!

[music]

Eva Leigh/Zoe Archer: I’m Eva Leigh, also known as Zoe Archer. I probably have other pseudonyms that I’m not aware of at the time, but –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Zoe: – I write very feminist historical romances for Avon.

Sarah and Zoe: Yay!

Sarah: All right, and you, sir?

Nico Rosso: I’m, I am Nico Rosso, and I write romantic suspense, right now with Carina Press.

Sarah: Nice! Okay.

Zoe: And we should mention at this time that Nico has been nominated for a RITA, also.

Sarah: Congratulations, du- –

Nico: Thank you.

Sarah: Are, okay, so what’s your dress like? Shoes?

Nico: It’s, there’s a lot of glitter. The shoes are very high, and –

Sarah: I’m very proud.

Nico: – I might be showing a little skin.

Zoe: It’s pretty low cut.

Nico: Yeah.

Sarah: Oh, even more awesome.

Nico: Yeah.

Sarah: Way to go! Okay, so before we get started, I have a gift for you.

Zoe: Okay.

Sarah: It’s in this bag.

Zoe: All right.

Sarah: And I want, I want to record you seeing this glorious thing that I posted on Instagram.

Nico: [Laughs]

Zoe: Through the magic of radio, ladies and gentleman…

Sarah: [Laughs]

Zoe: I’m opening this tissue-covered, Kate Spade handbag, and I’m removing from it –

Nico: [Groans]

Zoe: – a scarf.

[Laughter]

Sarah: It’s amazing, isn’t it?

Zoe: It is amazing. I think what they were trying to do was a poppy or some kind of Marimekko design, but –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – as I’ve said to Sarah before, I will treasure it always.

Sarah: I’m so glad you like it!

[Laughter]

Sarah: I mean, I, it’s weird to give someone a, a scarf that kind of looks like maxi pads.

Zoe: It does look like maxi pads, and it looks like the maxi pad’s really been doing its job.

Sarah: Right? Like, that’s a –

Nico: It’s got wings too.

Zoe: It does have wings.

Sarah: – that’s like a, that’s like a day one, day two maxi pad, right there.

Zoe: That’s, that’s what sells it.

Sarah: That’s when you – yeah –

Zoe: Yeah.

Sarah: – that’s when you’re wearing the ugly underwear, when you got that pad on.

Zoe: That’s true – ugh. Yeah.

Sarah: Isn’t that in- – and there’s, that’s on purses, it’s on access- –

Zoe: Is it, is it really?

Sarah: You could, you could deck out, everything that Kate, Kate Spade makes comes in that pattern.

Zoe: Wow!

Sarah: Right?

Zoe: Yeah!

Nico: Maybe it’s like the evil eye that wards off dudes, you know.

Sarah: Maybe when you wear it you won’t have any cramps or any, like, painful periods, and there’s a little pink nubbin there too!

Zoe: There is a little pink nubbin!

[Laughter]

Zoe: It kind of looks a little like, if you hold it this way, it looks like two eyes and a mouth?

Sarah: Yep!

Zoe: Going –

Sarah and Zoe: Ooohhh!

Nico: [Laughs]

Zoe: But also it could, it could ward off, you know, like, male rights activists?

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: ‘Cause they –

Sarah: Oh, yeah, mansplainers’ll be like –

Zoe: Yeah.

Sarah: – oh, my God, she’s wearing a maxi pad!

Nico: Yeah.

Sarah: Many of them! I have to go!

Zoe: Also, just on that note, I, it has been suggested that when you, if you go up to receive your RITA –

Nico: Uh-huh.

Zoe: – you do so wearing a fedora and address the crowd as milady.

Nico: I can’t do that.

Zoe: No?

Nico: I’m sorry.

Zoe: Okay.

Sarah: Would too much of your soul die?

Zoe: [Laughs]

Nico: Yeah. That would just crush everything.

Zoe: Well, thank you for this beautiful –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Zoe: – powerful –

Sarah: You are the only person I know who can truly, truly appreciate –

Zoe: [Laughs] Thank you?

Sarah: – the – you’re welcome.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I mean, you and I have been trading pictures of yoni on clothing.

Zoe: We have, for a long time now. It’s a beautiful friendship!

Sarah: Right?

Zoe: It is.

Sarah: I saw this vagina –

Sarah and Zoe: – and I thought of you!

[Laughter]

Sarah: But yet there are so many vaginas on things unintentionally.

Zoe: There are, but, you know, I think it’s only, it’s, like, it’s redressing the unintentional peen that has pervaded our society –

Sarah: Yes.

Zoe: – so if we have a few too many yoni, then I think we’re –

Sarah: It’s okay.

Zoe: – it’s okay! Yeah, exactly.

Sarah: And particularly like when they’re on a skirt, like, right in the front.

Zoe: Yes.

Sarah: So, so you know what’s behind this piece of fabric –

Zoe: Right, exactly.

Sarah: – kind of looks like what’s on the fabric.

Zoe: It’s like it’s not, the fabric’s not even there.

Sarah: No.

Zoe: No.

Sarah: It’s like an, like a big magnifier.

Zoe: Or a trompe l’oeil, like –

Sarah and Zoe: Yes!

Zoe: Yeah.

Sarah: Yes, you actually are seeing a close-up. I love how this design made it through what have to have been many, many people.

Zoe: Uh-huh.

Nico and Zoe: Yeah.

Sarah: And I actually, I was a horrible human being, and I went up to one of the salespeople at the, at the Kate Spade outlet, and I was like, listen, do you, do you see what that looks like? And she’s like, oh, yeah, I think they’re flowers. I’m like, I think they look like maxi pads, and there’s this long moment of silence, and she looks at me, and she goes, I can’t unsee it.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I know, I’m sorry, I’ve ruined it for you. And she’s like, it’s everywhere; I can’t unsee them, and they’re everywhere now.

Zoe: You do have to wonder what goes on in R & D sometimes.

Sarah: Right?

Zoe: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, that looks, it has wings and everything.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: It really does, and it –

Sarah: It’s glorious.

Zoe: – it’s, it is glorious.

Sarah: Yes.

Zoe: It celebrates womanhood.

[Laughter]

Sarah: And it’s a scarf, which is, like, incredibly perfect.

Zoe: It is; that’s true. I’ll wear it with my chunky wooden jewelry.

[Laughter]

Sarah: So, you guys are here at RWA, and you are doing a session on mindfulness and writers, and I –

Nico: Yeah.

Sarah: – really want to learn more about this, ‘cause this is really, really cool. So tell me all about this. All the words, go.

Nico: Well –

[Laughter]

Nico: Well, I was introduced from, to mindfulness from Zoe, and as she was learning more about it, we were discussing it and, and discovering more about it and, like, looking at, there’re apps out there, there’s tons of research online, and it’s like, this really applies to the artistic process. ‘Cause it, it applies to, like, the everyday life of, of moving around and being aware of other people and yourself, but just to kind of, like, whittle it down to writing and the artistic process, it really works for that, ‘cause it’s got a lot of parallels, and there’re a lot of tools in it that you can then apply to your writing life.

Sarah: Right.

Zoe: But maybe, just to back it up, like, what is mindfulness? Like, people may not know.

Sarah: This is a really important question.

Zoe: Yeah, right. What is it? And there’re lots of different definitions, but I, one in particular that I looked up that’s, was sort of resonant was, it’s the ability to be fully present, aware of ourselves and our surroundings, and also not being overly reactive or overwhelmed by things going on around us. So it’s both being engaged and attached but also with a certain sort of compassionate detachment and, and, like, sort of observation of things going on around you, so you can maintain your equanimity when faced with cir- – ‘scuse me – circumstances or situations that could cause physical or emotional distress.

Sarah: And it’s also being aware of how you feel about something.

Zoe: Yes, and, and being conscious of your thoughts, marking them, saying, I am having this feeling right now –

Sarah: Yeah.

Zoe: – or this thought, and then sort of dealing with it on that level rather than just sort of – ‘cause there’s sort of this triangulation of, like, an event, your events, and the action, and sometimes –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – they, they, it kind of goes in different directions, and this is sort of like slowing down that process, so before you immediately react to something, you can be aware of the thought that you’re having –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – and then sort of take a moment and then proceed mindfully –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – from that point.

Nico: Right, and, and it subverts what the power of that event can be. It also subverts the power of our own internal judgment can be about our response to that event, so if –

Sarah: And our own mental habits.

Nico: Yeah, and if we, if, if something happens and then it triggers us into a cold sweat or we’re uncomfortable, there’re two things that are happening: there’s that cold sweat, which is a response to the trigger, and then there’s also our own internal thought of, like, God, I’m such a jerk; I shouldn’t be reacting this way.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: So the mindfulness can help to kind of undo or soften both of those things, ‘cause it can slow down the reaction to the initial thing, and it also can give rise to the self compassion of, yes, you’re feeling this thing; this is what happens. It’s okay to feel this thing, and then you let it pass –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and you don’t get caught up in that kind of self recrimination process –

Sarah: Right.

Nico: – which isn’t helpful to anything.

Sarah: Right.

Zoe: And that’s very, we can talk about how it relates to writers, but it’s, it’s definitely useful for people who just feel things like anxiety or depression.

Sarah: Oh, I have both of those!

Zoe: Yes, join the club! Yeah.

Sarah: We’re, we’re, like, totally good friends, me –

Zoe: We are, we have the –

Sarah: – me, me and the two of them.

Zoe: – we have the secret coded, decoder ring for that, but yeah, it’s, what it does is, it can help you be aware of your thoughts and kind of break that cycle, because if you get anxious and you get depressed, a lot of the times you, you beat yourself up for feeling that way, and then it just compounds it, and you spiral down. So you can say, you know what, I’m ha-, I’m feeling depressed right now, and I can step back from that and be like, it’s okay that I’m feeling depressed right now.

Sarah: It’s not my fault.

Zoe: It’s not my fault, and, and, like, and I’m compassionate towards myself for having these feelings, and this is something that, you know, one works with their whole life. It’s not something that you’re just like, ah, I can turn this switch on and I am, automatically don’t feel bad about feeling bad anymore. It’s, it’s a practice; that’s what a lot of my meditation is a practice, and you don’t get to, like, the final, like, I did it! You know, it’s like you’re always working on it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. I liken living with depression to living on a hill covered with olive oil?

Zoe: [Laughs]

Sarah: And so you sort of start to slide, and then you get to the steeper part and you slide faster –

Zoe: Right.

Sarah: – and you have to catch yourself before you get down to the really slick parts, and it’s hard to climb back out?

Nico and Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And they ways in which different people do that are varied; like, there’re so many different ways to manage that; but I agree, being aware of your feelings and being like, oh! Well, this sucks. We’ve been here before. I recognize this. This is what this is. It almost makes it a little less scary –

Zoe: Right.

Sarah: – ‘cause you can name it –

Zoe: Right.

Sarah: – and identify it.

Nico: Totally.

Zoe: Yeah.

Nico and Zoe: Yeah.

Zoe: And the mindfulness sort of helps you recognize when you’re going down that path and then what steps you need to take in terms of subverting it –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – you know, so you don’t find yourself at a ten instead of a five –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – you know, in terms of, like, on your anxiety or depression scale.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: And that level of awareness and subverting that slide is very much, that’s like the, one of the fundamental aspects of practicing mindfulness on that meditative level, because really what you’re doing when you’re meditating is you’re just trying to focus on your breath –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and the thoughts are going to come in –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and they’re supposed to –

Sarah: Right.

Nico: – and when they arrive, you can’t force them out –

Sarah: Nope!

Nico: – you can’t argue with them.

Sarah: Brains are so fricking stubborn with all the thinking! Gosh!

Zoe: [Laughs]

Nico: Right. And that’s okay.

Sarah: [Laughs] I know! This is what brains do!

Nico: That’s what they’re supposed to do!

Sarah: This is what little brains do.

Nico: So it shows up, and then you just, okay, I’m going to focus back on the breath –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and I’m going to bring myself back to that meditation, but that very moment of I’m thinking a thing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – that’s not part of this meditation, and I’m going to bring myself back to the breath, that very moment –

Sarah: I am choosing, yes.

Nico: – is, that’s the practice, and that’s the muscle that you’re building up that can help with the writing or that slide down that hill –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – of that moment of awareness of, this is what’s happening. I’m aware of it; I’m, I’m observing it without judgment, and now I’m just going to turn myself back toward what it is that I’ve been doing that this other thing, be it a thought or the depression or something, has been, is drawing me away from.

Sarah: That was hugely important for me because I had the impression that meditation and mindfulness meant that my brain would be this cool, calm place like a, like the surface of a pond, and there would be no thoughts, and my brain was like, that is just not going to happen, but we can keep trying.

Nico: Right.

Sarah: And when I realized that it was making the choice to stop dealing with that thought and go back to what I was doing, the idea that it was not only a choice but also assuming some level of control of what my brain was doing, being in control of what my brain was doing –

Nico: Right.

Sarah: – as I developed that ability was just mind-blowing. Like, I was like, oh! I can say, okay, we’re going to reframe how you’re thinking about this. We’re going to think about that later. We’re not going to think right now; we’re just going to sit here and breathe. All we’re doing is breathing; that’s all we’ve got to do. Okay, brain, you and me, we’re going to work together. It was almost for me to make friends with some of my mental habits –

Nico: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – which I really appreciated.

Zoe: Yeah, and I think people have this conception, at least where it comes to mindful meditation, that you have to just completely empty your mind of thoughts, and every time you think you’re failing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – which is, I think, not –

Sarah: It’s a very American way to look at it.

Zoe: It is –

[Laughter]

Zoe: – right?

Sarah: You’re doing the work WRONG!

Nico and Zoe: Right.

Zoe: It’s a, it’s, it’s inaccurate, and it doesn’t help. The, somebody told me that, you know, the mind secretes thoughts like the mouth secretes saliva. Like –

Sarah: Yep.

Zoe: – you can’t, you cannot make them –

Sarah: That’s what brains do!

Zoe: They can’t, you can’t make it stop, and you’re not, the goal isn’t to try to make it stop; the goal is, like, as Nico was saying, was that moment of awareness when you become conscious and cognizant of the thinking, and you recognize it and then return back to your breath, and the reason why breath is used is because it sort of grounds you back in your body.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: Gives you something to focus on.

Sarah: And it’s something that you both have control over and do not have control over.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Nico: Right.

Sarah: You are going to breathe automatically –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – but you also have control over your breath.

Zoe: Right.

Sarah: So it, it’s not like your heartbeat, which is going to, luck, you know, if you’re lucky, just go.

Nico: [Laughs]

Zoe: Right.

Sarah: You have some ability to adjust your breath –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – which is important.

Nico: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: So sometimes when you do a mindful meditation, you start with some deep breathing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – and then you just return your breath to normal, and then that’s when you start meditating, and then you just locate it in your body. Sometimes you’re like, do I feel it in my nostrils? Do I feel my chest rising and falling, my, my, my stomach? Do I feel it hot, do I feel it cold? Like, that kind of observation.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. So what do you guys use for your own meditations? You’ve mentioned apps. Are there things that you recommend, or are there just, you’ve developed your own in-, individual techniques?

Zoe: Well, I got into it because one that app that I’ve heard of is, and I use, is Calm, C-A-L-M.

Sarah: I like Calm.

Zoe: It’s a –

Sarah: I like her voice.

Zoe: Yeah, I, what’s her name? Tamara Levitt. She always starts it, I’m Tamara Levitt –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Zoe: – and it’s like this very NPR moment, and you feel –

Sarah: Oh –

Zoe: – very calm and soothed.

Sarah: – super NPR voice.

Zoe: Yes, and Calm is nice because it has a, you can either pay for it, or there’s also the free version, and the free version is, has less features –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – but they’re both useful, but the one thing that if you pay for it is you get, like, a daily meditation with a little theme –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – and you get access to more of, like, they, they have, like, 21 Days of Calm versus 7 Days of Calm, and it’s like, these are, she’ll, she’ll start you off, and you, you know, tell you to close your eyes and kind of center yourself, and then, and then, you know, five, ten, fifteen minutes go by, depending on what you set for your timer, and then she’ll bring you back into your body, and then the chime goes off and you’re done!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: That’s how Calm generally works.

Nico: Yeah, I’ve, that’s the, I learned that app from Zoe, and that’s what I’ve used. We also, there’s a group that meets in our town –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – that is led by a friend of ours that meets for mindful meditation, and she’s, our friend Erin has been doing this for a long time. We’ve only met her recently, but she’s been doing a lot of it, and –

Sarah: Y’all so live in California.

Nico: Yeah! Yes –

Zoe: Yes, no kidding.

Nico: – it is a very California thing. [Laughs] And she has a lot of insight, so, but it’s, it brings together a lot of people that are practicing the same stuff, so everyone kind of brings different ideas to it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: So that’s, it’s handy and helpful to be like, someone has a little insight on this one aspect or that aspect, so it, it’s interesting ‘cause it can be a, it’s a very solo thing, ‘cause when you’re actually in the practice you’re just in your own head and that’s the point. You’re not supposed to be really conceptualizing other people’s processes –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – but then once you back out of that, you can kind of use the community of people that are doing this to learn different things, and, like, what we’re doing right now.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: I mean, we’ll share ideas, and we’ll learn from you and learn from anybody commenting on, you know, the podcast –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and it’s like, it just keeps growing from there.

Sarah: Right. There’s no one way –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Nico: Right.

Zoe: Absolutely not.

Sarah: – and it constantly evolves –

Zoe: Yeah.

Sarah: – and changes.

Nico: Right. Just like the writing process.

Zoe: Right.

Sarah: Yes.

Zoe: There’s another app called Headspace, that’s another one that people like to use, and there’re books by Jon Kabat-Zinn and Sharon Salzberg. Those are both two Western practitioners of mindfulness, and they deal a lot with things like mindfulness for depression, mindfulness to introduce this thing called lovingkindness into your life.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. That was her, the, Sharon Salzberg’s latest book was Lovingkindness, right?

Zoe: Yeah, yeah, she’s really into that, and she’s kind of like the, the, the spokeswoman for it in terms of the Western world. And, you know, so there’re multiple apps and books and things, and if you can find a group, that’s really great, ‘cause it’s kind of nice to sort of be part of that communal energy. I was, I did a meditation group a few years ago, also very California, and we all sit on pillows, and she rings a Tibetan bowl and then we, we meditate.

Sarah: I have an app on my phone that I’ve used for a while, both for yoga and for meditation; it’s called Insight Timer?

Zoe: Oh, I know that one, yeah.

Sarah: And you can pick the different bowls, or a wood block, which just never worked for me. Like, thoonk. 

Nico: [Laughs]

Sarah: But the thing I love about it is that when you sign up for an account, it will tell you where in the world other people are meditating –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – so you sort of feel like, oh –

Nico: Wow.

Sarah: – I’m connected to all these people around the world who are using this app at this moment, and they’re all meditating at this moment. And then when you sign off, it will, if you’re connected and you’ve elected to share that information, people who’ve been meditating at the same time will message you, thank you for meditating with me.

Nico: Wow.

Sarah: Thank you for being part of my day. I’m like –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – oh, my God, the world is so itty-bitty it fits on my phone screen! [Laughs]

Nico and Zoe: Right.

Zoe: And I, well, kind of segueing into writing, I recently was teaching writing for a week-long course, and every day I opened with some mindful breathing and, to just sort of get things going, and then on the last day when we actually workshopped each others’ pieces in class, I did the lovingkindness meditation so that we were all in the right frame of mind, and my students really, they seemed to like it a lot. It sort of helped ground them and keep them from kind of flying off into the ether and stuff like that, so it was, it was a very helpful thing, I think, for writing in general.

Sarah: In my synagogue, there’s – I go to a very small, unaffiliated, super-crunchy synagogue, which we really like – but we start a meditation before we start the Torah service.

Nico and Zoe: Hmm.

Sarah: So Saturday morning services, there’s, like, the warm-up part, and then you get to the Torah, which is, like, the heavy-duty lifting: not only lifting the thing, but actually reading it.

Zoe: Right.

Sarah: And there’s a silent meditation; usually the person who’s leading it connects it to what we’re about to hear –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – but also reminds you that you’re here for a reason –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and whatever you’ve come into this room for –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – we, you know, we hope that you find whatever you’re, you’re searching for, spiritually or emotionally or personally, but you are part of this room, and your being here is a mat-, it matters.

Nico: Wow.

Sarah: And it’s really, really nice, and I’ve totally expected my husband to be like, okay. He’s so into it. He’s like –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – I really like it, ‘cause what they’re basically saying is, okay, stop. Think about why you’re here and what we’re doing, which is a similar practice to your writing group.

Zoe: Yes, and –

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: – also prayer and meditation have a lot in common.

Sarah: They’re very similar. I think the brainwaves are pretty similar when you’re in progress.

Zoe: I, well, I, like, not being somebody who knows a lot about neurology, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say that they’re, they probably tap into a lot of the same things.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: Well, and also just that opportunity to focus on one thing, be it breath or a mantra or a prayer –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and not, and, and allow all those, all those other thoughts to drift, drift away, it’s just, it’s so reinvigorating. It’s like, and we’ll, you know, we’ve talked about where, if you sit down for a meditation or what, a sit they call it?

Sarah: Yeah, it’s a sit.

Nico: A sit. You, you sit down for the sit, and it can be tumultuous in your head. Half an hour of just thoughts –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – that just keep invading –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nico: – and, and they’re just, like, loud and shouting, and you’re just like, the whole time you’re just trying to focus on the breath and bring it back, but these things are just happening and happening, and, but then that half hour is up, and you open your eyes, and you’re like, man, I feel better.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: And you’re like, during it you’re like, this is just not going –

Sarah: This is miserable!

Nico: – where I want it to go –

Sarah: Now I feel good.

Nico: – and it’s just like –

Sarah: It’s like working out.

Nico: Exactly, exactly.

Sarah: It just sucks –

Zoe: Totally, yeah.

Sarah: – and afterwards you’re like, oh –

Zoe: Ohhh!

Sarah: – hell, yes, endorphins!

Nico: Yeah. They’re so, and, and it, once you start doing it, you do see the relation, so it’s like, if you’re going to the gym and – ‘cause I was thinking about this. I was like, I was working out; I was like, God, I’m doing this thing, and I knew that I had, like, four more things to do in my, in my set or whatever, and, and I was like, man, I’m, I’m, I’m gassed right now, and I have four more things. I’m like, I’m not going to think about those four things. I’m going to focus on doing this one thing –

Sarah: Yes.

Nico: – the best I can –

Sarah: Yes.

Nico: – and then I’ll transition to the next one.

Sarah: Which is when you pay attention, if you’re lifting, to form.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Form is, is to have control over what you’re doing and not just be like, I’m just going to throw this weight around.

Nico: Right.

Sarah: I don’t need my tendons! They’re optional!

[Laughter]

Nico: Right. Right, you want to get the benefit from doing it –

Sarah: Right.

Nico: – and it’s like, if your mind is drifting to all that other stuff, it’s either going to subvert you, because it’s going to convince you you don’t have enough energy to do it, or it’s just, you’re going to be thinking about things that aren’t focused on what you’re doing, so you need to get the benefit of it.

Sarah: Right.

Nico: And it’s the same with the writing, too. It’s like –

Sarah: So how does this apply to, how have you applied this to writing?

[Laughter]

Zoe: We’re –

Nico: We’re going to stare at each other.

Zoe: Yeah.

Nico: Do you want to start?

Zoe: Well –

Sarah: So there’re words.

Zoe: There are words.

Nico: There’re a lot of words.

Zoe: There are a lot of words.

Sarah: They’re all in your brain.

Zoe: They’re in my brain. One of the things that is pretty important, I think, and we both have discussed, is this lack of judgment, sort of removing judgment from your process and sort of allowing your creativity to take shape as it takes shape.

Sarah: So to write –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – what’s being written without judgment.

Nico: Right.

Zoe: Yes.

Sarah: Right now I’m writing words, and they’re fine.

Nico: Yeah, and you don’t have to love every sentence. You know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – it’s not like you, you write and you’re like, this is the best thing I’ve ever written! I’m not going to write – and the next sentence is going to be even better!

Sarah: Nope!

Nico: It, it’s just about, you write it, and you go, this, it’s the sentence for now –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and if I continue to love it, great; if I don’t, I will fix it in edits. But it’s like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – it doesn’t mean you need to be, like, trashing it as you’re writing it and as soon as, after you’ve written it –

Sarah: That gets in your own way.

Nico: You’re just –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nico: – all you’re going to do is just keep cycling on this isn’t working, this isn’t working, this isn’t working, but if you will say, this is what it is for now – ‘cause it’s, you’re not, you know, you’re not typing it on a Google Doc that is shared with the world –

Sarah: Nope.

Nico: – and everybody can watch it happen. I mean, there’s a lot of stuff that the readers don’t know – [laughs] –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – go into this book, and revisions and edits, so it’s like, yeah, you just, you just accept what you’re writing as you’re writing it. You fix it if you, if the fix is apparent, fix it, but if it isn’t, just keep moving, and just take that judgment out if you can.

Zoe: There’s this therapeutic pro-, I guess it’s called, like, a system – I’m not sure what it’s called. There’s cognitive behavioral therapy, and there’s –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: –  also dialectical behavioral therapy –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – and DBT has this concept which was – DBT was formulated by Marsha Linehan, a very well-known academic in Washington or Oregon? We’ll, we’ll fix that in post.

Sarah: Somewhere there’re some trees.

Zoe: Yes, exactly.

Sarah: It’s cloudy.

Zoe: But anyway, part of DBT has to do with this thing called radical acceptance, and acceptance means you accept the facts as they are. That doesn’t mean you approve of them, it doesn’t mean you’re okay with them, but you’re like, this is what’s happening, and I have to accept it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: Regardless of what that circumstance is. It could be bad; it could be good. It just, but you need to be able to just sort of have that sort of, hold it in your mind and not struggle against it, not push away, ‘cause that’s where the, sort of the mental suffering comes in.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. There’s a book by Tara Brach called Radical Acceptance –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and I’ve been listening to it while I walk the dog, which is great, ‘cause it’s both exercise and sort of meditation, ‘cause the narrator is very chill, but then it, each chapter is, is very revealing, and one of the things I really liked about the idea of radical acceptance is that you have to sort of accept all of the things that have brought you to this moment.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: You are who you are right now, and you can’t change any of the things that have brought you to this moment. If you just accept them as having happened, that’s enough.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And one thing that I know that my brain loves to do is, it likes to think about things where I screwed up, maybe, like, twenty-five years ago?

Zoe: Right.

Nico: Oh, God.

Sarah: And I’m the only person that remembers in perfect clarity exactly what happened.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: None of the people in that room –

Nico: Right.

Sarah: – probably even remember. I remember!

Nico: [Laughs]

Sarah: And that’s when my brain’s like, you know what? Let’s totally think about that in excruciating detail, like, five times in a row! Isn’t that going to be fun? And I’m like –

Zoe: Right before you go to bed –

Sarah: Right –

Zoe: – as you’re lying –

Sarah: While I’m trying to go to sleep!

Zoe: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: Right? And my brain’s like, this is the perfect time to think about this.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And one of the things that has helped me is to confront the, that inclination, that habit of my brain and to say, okay, I accept that that happened, but the fact that I’m concerned about what I did is a positive –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – that I know not to make a mistake like that, and that –

Nico: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – I accept the mistakes of other people when they screw up.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And then I can almost sometimes hear that habit in my brain going – [exasperated sigh] – damn it!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Try harder next time! And it, it does help to just be like, okay, it is.

Zoe: Mm-hmm. And it’s part of that notion of self-compassion.

Sarah: Yes!

Zoe: And then even, so, when you have those thoughts, when they come up, you can forgive yourself for what happened in the past –

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Zoe: – and you can also forgive yourself for thinking about it now.

Sarah: Yep.

Nico: Yeah, you don’t kick yourself –

Zoe: Yeah.

Nico: – in the process. You go, yeah, it’s what happening.

Sarah: This is, this is a habit you’re familiar with?

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: Little bit.

[Laughter]

Nico: Oh, yeah, yeah, oh, yeah, oh – I’ve got lists –

Sarah: Oh.

Nico: – of, like, those thoughts –

Sarah: Technicolor –

Nico: – that I just don’t –

Sarah: Do I remember what I was wearing? No. Do I remember random things? Do I know what day it is? No. Do I remember, perfect clarity, shit that happened fifteen years ago? Totally!

Nico: Absolutely. Yeah.

Zoe: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: Thanks, brain! That’s great!

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: So that’s one of the things when you’re at your desk is sort of, like, letting go of judgment and allowing your process to kind of take shape as it takes shape, whether you’re a plotter or a pantser, or whatever form it take, just sort of accepting it and not, and avoid, if you can, railing against it and being angry with yourself or your process or your characters or your story. Right?

Sarah: Or your contract or your husband or –

Zoe: Yeah, exactly.

Nico: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – publicity.

Nico: I mean, well, those thoughts that get, like, the thought, the non-book thoughts, those are the ones that’ll, like, creep in. You’re like, you’re writing this and, like, well, what about the market? And it’s like, well, what if nobody’s going to want this? Or what if somebody said that thing about my last book? And it’s like, that’s not helpful. That’s not going to help this book right now –

Sarah: No.

Nico: – and those are thoughts that maybe you need to address, you know, in terms of the market and stuff, you address those thoughts when it’s time to figure out what you’re going to write?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: But once you’ve made that decision and you’re like, I’m going to write this book ‘cause of all those decisions that I’ve made –

Sarah: Yep.

Nico: – it’s like, okay, I’ve made those decisions, and when it’s you and the page or the keyboard or however you’re doing it, it’s like, those thoughts, they will show up, it’s not like, you know, you don’t kick yourself again for them showing up –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – ‘cause they’re supposed to, but you just can be like, hey, thought, thanks for coming by, but I’m working on this book now, ‘cause I already made my decision –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and just let that, do what you can to let that thought –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – drift back and just, like in the meditation, you focus back on the breathing; with the writing, you just focus back on the page.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: Where were we? What, what was happening? What, what sentence am I on? What’s the punctuation? Even the very basics of that, and then, you know, you’re hoping to not, again, kick yourself –

Sarah: Yep.

Nico: – and your process and, or kick yourself ‘cause those thoughts come in, ‘cause they’re going to show up, but then you just do what you can to, like, whew, just let ‘em pass by and just bring yourself back to that, to the moment.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. One thing that worked really well for me when I was writing was actually making it so I couldn’t read what I was writing.

Nico: Wow.

Zoe: Mm.

Sarah: So I put, the words were dark green on black, so if I really needed to squint and figure out where I was if I left my computer and came back, I could pick up, but if I was writing, I couldn’t read what I was writing, because my reading critical brain is way stronger than my writing brain –

Nico: Interesting.

Sarah: – and so I needed to not be able to read to shut that voice up. Like, you didn’t even spell that right! Come on! You’ve got to go fix it! I said, nope, nope, can’t see it, can’t read it, just writing.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And I’m a good enough typist that I manage to not misspell everything –

Nico: [Laughs]

Sarah: – so I knew what the hell I was saying, but that was, that was the only thing that got me over that first initial, dude, dude, what are you doing?

Zoe: [Laughs]

Nico: Right.

Sarah: Dude, what is that? What, wait, what, wait, what are you doing? What, what are you doing? Okay, let’s go back. No, let’s not go back! Forward!

Zoe: And then also, I mean, because you found that unique way for you, it also means compassion for learning what your process is –

Sarah: Yes!

Zoe: – and discovering what that process is, ‘cause it’s a different, for everybody. Even two plotters are going to come at it in a different way, and we often have had, when we’ve given talks and stuff, people ask us specifics about our process, and we’re like, well, you can try it, what we do. It might not work for you, and there’s no right way to do it, and anybody – and I feel that when people come up with these sort of gnomic statements about what writing is or isn’t or should or shouldn’t be or things like that, I’m like, that’s not applicable to everybody.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: You know, hard, fast rules about the creative process are kind of ludicrous, you know. People don’t say, you know, well, I, you, if, in order to paint, you have to paint this way. I mean, there might be artists who say that, but then you need to be able to expand and explore to give rein to your, free rein to your, your creative mind.

Sarah: Has your process changed?

Zoe: Yes, it has changed. I’ve been published now for eleven years, but I’ve been writing for all my life, and my process continually evolves, and I have to be okay with the fact that it changes. There’re some things that don’t change, like the fact that every time Nico gives me notes and I get notes back from my editor, I fall into a depression. That always happens, but he always reminds me, this always happens, and you figure it out, so, like, I get this little amnesia, and then he tells me, hey, you do this all the time, it’s okay, and then eventually I pick myself up and, and move on. Has your process changed?

Nico: Yeah, absolutely. I think it changes each book, and sometimes it changes, like, page to page. You know, some days – I mean, even small things like, you know, one day I’m writing to music, one day I’m not, and that’s a process thing, and it’s like, if it’s working that one day and it was great and, you know, I had a great soundtrack going but the next day it’s like, oh, man, I just can’t listen to music right now while I’m doing this and I have to say all the dialogue out loud today for some reason, it’s like, that’s just what today is.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: So it absolutely does change, and it’s, and it’s supposed to, I think, but it, it’s not a requirement, but it’s that, it’s again taking that judgment out of it. It’s like if, if you’re a plotter and, and that’s always been what worked for you and then this next book you’re like, I just don’t have a plot, but I’ve got a fucking banging page one; I’m just going to start it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: And you just start it, and then you, and you just start kicking yourself: I know I really should have a plot, but you’re still writing, it’s like, no, fuck it! Just write it!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: [Laughs] You know, if, that’s process this time, so don’t, again, don’t get in your own way.

Sarah: And then sometimes it seems like being a plotter or a pantser is an identity that comes with judgment. That –

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – you, you judge what you don’t do, or you judge what, what doesn’t work for you, or you judge someone else’s process ‘cause it doesn’t fit yours, or you judge yours because it’s not like that person’s.

Zoe: Right, absolutely.

Nico: Yeah.

Sarah: And accepting with compassion that your process is, and it changes, and, and adapts is all part of what you advocate and how you come at your writing.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: And that’s, his mindfulness notion of beginner’s mind is, like, approaching what you’re doing, your story, your process, your characters, with this fresh and open perspective, so you’re just kind of like, hmm, let’s explore this, I’m new to this, let’s give it a try, and that’s, that’s also part of, I think, mindfulness.

Nico: Yeah, you bring your experience so you don’t have to, like, start at the very beginning of everything, but you can back out enough so that it’s unique and fresh and exciting, too. You want to capture that beginner’s excitement of, like, I want to do this again, or I want to do this for the first time, or even break new ground.

Sarah and Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Nico: I think that’s important.

Zoe: Mm-hmm. Another thing that’s helpful for increasing mindfulness when you’re at your desk and writing is reducing your distractions, and that’s very challenging. That means phone, that means social media, that means –

Sarah: So challenging.

Zoe: – the Internet that’s not related to research.

Sarah: Digital snacking.

Zoe: Yeah. Oh! [Laughs]

Nico: Oh, nice.

Zoe: Yeah, I’ve never heard that term before.

Sarah: Gretchen Rubin, who writes books about happiness and habit forming call, in a book called Better Than Before, called it digital snacking, and I was like, that is exactly what it is for me.

Nico: That’s great, yeah.

Sarah: It is snacking.

Nico: Wow.

Zoe: Well, I think that’s why the #1k1hour [or #1k1Hour] hashtag was so popular, because – and I implemented it a lot, and some-, and sometimes I still do, but it’s not quite the powerhouse that it was, but it’s still really important, because what you’re doing is, you check in with other people, and you say, I want to write for an hour, and let’s check in at the end of that hour and see how many words we get, and I’m going to turn off my Internet, or I’m going to, like, close my browser. I’m not going to look at my phone. Just for one hour, I’m just going to focus on, on writing.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: And everyone comes back together after that hour, and they’ll say, like, I, I got two hundred words, or somebody’ll be like, I got, you know, fifteen thousand, which, obviously, doesn’t generally happen, but, like, people will come in with different word counts –

Sarah: Yep.

Zoe: – and it’s okay no matter what you get, but the thing is that you’ve devoted yourself and your time, and you’re mindful of the process of writing.

Sarah: And whatever, however many you got –

Zoe: Right.

Sarah: – they’re there.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: Exactly!

Sarah: That’s all.

Zoe: That’s better than nothing!

Sarah: Yep, better than zero.

Nico: But, and that’s just like the sit for a meditation; it’s like, I’m going to spend a half hour meditating.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: And it’s like, by the end of that, it’s like, yeah, the thoughts are going to come, they’re going to show up, they’re not going to show up, I’m going to, you know, things are going to happen differently, but at that end of half an hour, half an hour, you’re going to come back out of it and be like, I sat for half an hour and did that –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and it’s the same thing with writing. If I’m going to sit for an hour or even a half hour writing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – that’s the meditation, that’s, the moment that you keep bringing yourself back to is the moment of writing. Just going to keep coming back to it.

Zoe: And as a, like, an anecdote, sometimes when I’m doing that kind of thing and I need a name or a place and I’m trying to just get the words down, I’ll put in my manuscript Place Name or Person’s Name or something like that, ‘cause looking up a person’s name or coming up with a –

Sarah: Oh, that’s a rabbit hole –

Zoe: – that, exactly.

Sarah: – for six hours, right?

Nico: Oh, my God, yeah.

Zoe: Well, so, I’ll –

Nico: You lose a day of work –

Sarah: Right?

Nico: – naming people.

Sarah: Right? [Laughs]

Zoe: So I’ll often just write that in, Place Name, Person Name, and then I’ll give the chapters to Nico, and usually he’ll suggest something fairly filthy for the place name or the person name –

Sarah: Good call!

Nico: Yeah, they never make it into the final cut.

Zoe: They don’t! I don’t know why!

Nico: I can’t imagine why not.

Zoe: Yeah, I, it’s strange. But –

Sarah: Once upon a time –

Zoe: Yeah.

Sarah: – in Blue Balls, Pennsylvania.

Zoe: Yeah, exactly.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: You, you should hear the things he’s come up with.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Awesome!

Nico and Zoe: Yeah.

Nico: It’s historical, so it’s fun if, you know, lords and barons and, you know –

Zoe: You get titles.

Nico: – it gets very alliterative.

Zoe: Yes, that’s true.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: Something else, when you’re writing, is just sort of checking in with your body –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – and how you feel. Like, sort of try to mentally and/or physically relax your body to make it as comfortable as – yeah.

Sarah: So your ears don’t come – my, my shoulders –

Zoe: Yeah.

Sarah: – and my ears are just dying for each other when I’m writing in. [Laughs]

Zoe: Right, exactly.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: And, you know, like, ergonomics and things like that. It’s just me, it’s sort of like, it, it sort of, to borrow from Eastern philosophy, it just sort of gets the chi flowing, which I think is a, is a helpful thing for people to have.

Nico: Yeah, well, it’s funny, as soon as you said, check in with your body, you just, like, you immediately, like –

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

Nico: – changed your posture –

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

Nico: – and you, like, checked in on your shoulder.

Sarah: ‘Cause my shoulders and my ears –

Nico: Yeah.

Sarah: – have this forbidden romance –

Nico: And it was –

Sarah: – and I’m trying to keep ‘em apart.

Nico: – it was subconscious, and you –

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

Nico: – you weren’t, like, I need to work on my – but it’s like –

Sarah: No, but if you think, how am I sitting?

Nico and Zoe: Yeah.

Nico: And it’s like when you tell somebody, hey, I’m going to the dentist, they immediately, like, check, check their teeth. They, they’ve got that one tooth that’s a problem –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and they’ll go to it, so, but, like, as soon as you say, oh, yeah, just check in on how you’re sitting, and you’re like, oh, yeah, man, where are my hips at?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: Like, what am I doing with my knees? And, like, I am not aligned at all, and it’s like, as soon as you do that, you’re, even it, it’s almost like a trick in a way, because you’re, you’re tricking yourself to focus on the moment again.

Sarah: Yes.

Nico: ‘Cause you’re not allowed, your, your brain is like, no, I need to actually focus on where everything is sitting –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and I can’t be thinking random thoughts.

Sarah: Yep.

Nico: So it’s a, it’s a good way, it’s good for you (a) just to sit properly, but it’s also a good way to kind of get your brain back –

Sarah: Yes.

Nico: – online.

Zoe: Another thing that you can do if you’re writing and you feel yourself blocked, ‘cause that comes up, is it’s okay to take a break. You don’t have to lash yourself to your keyboard or your tablet or whatever. You can actually, you know, take a step back. It’s a good idea that it’s a, a measured, like with a defined beginning and end kind of a break. You say, all right, I’m only going to rearrange one shelf in the refrigerator.

Sarah: Yep!

Zoe: And then I’m going, coming back to this.

Sarah: On that!

Nico: Yep.

Zoe: Yeah, so it’s, it has a defined end.

Sarah: Or I’m going to go garden for five minutes.

Zoe: Right.

Sarah: I’m going to go sit outside and read for twenty minutes.

Zoe: Right, exactly, yeah. That, that’ll sort of help refresh you. It’ll, it’ll ground you again. It’ll get that process sort of, you won’t feel as exhausted by what you’re doing.

Sarah: Yes.

Nico: And I think it subverts that judgment, too. Like, if you are feeling blocked, and oftentimes for me, at least, you know, if I’m feeling blocked I’ll start getting angry at myself –

Sarah: Try harder!

Nico: – for being blocked.

Sarah: Try harder!

Nico and Zoe: Yeah.

Nico: So it’s like, all right, just take yourself out of that situation, ‘cause you’re not going to whip yourself –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – you know, until you can write again. You’re going to, I’m going to go off, and I’m going to work in the shop, or I’m going to, you know, clean something –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and then, then come back, and it’s like, that voice –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – won’t be as loud, because it’s just not, it’s just not present anymore. You know, it’s just not relevant.

Sarah: I also think there are times when I have a certain number of words in my brain, and I have a, I have a, a brain word count, and there are points when my brain is like, look, I am out of words, and that could also happen when I’m surrounded by people and I’m talking a lot? Like, I will reach a point at conferences where I’m like, yep, brain, no, no word now.

Zoe: [Laughs] Me no word.

Sarah: No word, no. Brain out, going to room now. I can’t word anymore.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: Usually on the last, the, the day, the travel day of conference, we’ve gotten to the airport early, and we just sit there and stare.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Next year RWA is in Denver, and Adam, my husband, is very excited, because he’s never been to Denver, and he’s like, we can make a vacation out of it. We could go around, go do stuff afterward. We can go hiking. I’m like, that’s awesome? Please understand that the immediate day after the conference I am not going to be talking to you or anyone.

Zoe: [Laughs]

Sarah: I will be the worst companion. Just leave me alone in a corner; I’ll be fine the next day. [Laughs]

Nico: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: But I will be, whatever it is that, that you need to decompress from, that is where I will be. [Laughs]

Zoe: Right. When you get a bunch of introverts together for five or six days, we want to talk to each other, but it takes, the cost is high.

Sarah: Oh, yeah, I have –

Nico: Yeah.

Sarah: – I have blocked out time on my calendar? One year I called it diarrhea.

Zoe: [Laughs]

Sarah: No one argues with diarrhea, not even you.

Zoe: Hmm!

Sarah: And it wasn’t actual, it was just –

Zoe: Busted!

Sarah: – time to go to your room. Right.

Nico: Hmm.

Sarah: It wasn’t like I was willing myself into gastrointestinal distress.

[Laughter]

Everyone: Which can happen!

Sarah: Especially if you’re an introvert. But I block off time, go be by yourself time.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: Yeah. That mind-body connection, it’s, it’s crucial.

Sarah: Right?

Zoe: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s like they’re actually connected?

Nico and Zoe: Right.

Zoe: And we, we recently watched, like, a documentary about how the, the, the stomach or the gut, as they call it, is another brain, and they talk to each other, and they inform each other. So mindfulness actually really helps with that. It kind of, like, tells them both to chill out –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – which is super helpful –

Sarah: Yep.

Zoe: – if you, if you have a tendency to whip yourself into a frenzy or you’re like, I don’t understand why I’ve been nauseous for three weeks, and you’re like, let’s think about it; it’s because, you know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: – there’s some stress going on.

Nico: It helps with, like, the symptoms, but it also helps with the awareness of it.

Sarah: Yeah!

Nico: And you get to break it down, so you’re not just like, I’m sick! I’m sick! You just kind of back out a little bit, and you’re like –

Zoe: What is –

Nico: – why am I sick?

Zoe: Yeah.

Nico: What’s going on here? And then you can kind of examine it because you’re, you’re in that mode of, like, checking in with your body and not judging and, you know, and, and so then you can kind of like start to piece things out a little more easily.

Sarah: Especially because depression and anxiety can have very specific physical symptoms –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – that you wouldn’t immediately connect –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – to, to depression and anxiety.

Zoe: No.

Nico: Right.

Sarah: Like, they don’t seem to get along, except they happen when those things are happening to you –

Zoe: Right.

Sarah: – when your brain’s chemicals are out of balance.

Zoe: Yeah, like –

Nico: And your still, and your body’s chemicals, too.

Sarah: Yes!

Nico: It’s not just your body, but, like, your gut and stuff like that.

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

Nico: It’s all variable.

Zoe: There’s, there’s definitely a, there’s some – I’ve done a lot of research into this – there’re, like, GI issues that come up that –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – people who have depression and anxiety will get, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – you know, you don’t think that one would be related to the other, but it’s –

Sarah: They’re all connected.

Zoe: Yeah. And pain, physical pain? Definitely connected. Anyway, there’re some other mindfulness things that we can talk about besides –

Sarah: Yes, please!

Zoe: – besides diarrhea. [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, I suppose.

Zoe: Ah, why?

Sarah: If you want. Trigger warning –

Zoe: Yeah, okay. [Laughs]

Sarah: – for discussion of mental illness and poop.

[Laughter]

Zoe: Yeah, you might want to back away if these are issues for you.

Sarah: People who listen to this podcast know.

Nico: Are they ready?

Zoe: You should know by now.

Sarah: We go to strange – I mean, the, the one that’s coming out on Friday, we started talking about book recommendations and ended up how, talking about how books with tentacles always come with the expectation of anal?

Zoe: Hmm!

Sarah: But it was, like, a whole twenty-minute conversation! So go wherever you need to go.

Zoe: Okay. Something that Nico and I talked about in terms of, like, when you’re away from your desk, how to cultivate mindfulness, is keeping, like, a mindful, mindfulness writing journal?

Sarah: Ooh!

Zoe: So it’s like recording impression, sights, sounds, you know, all of your, using all of your senses that keep you grounded and aware of your environment, and I think that would enrich your experience as a writer because you’re not just in your head, but you’re looking around at the world and you’re taking it in.

Nico: Yeah, almost like spying on the world in a way.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: But taking in the specifics. It’s like you just, you just, you kind of screw down to those very little specifics of, like, like you were talking about in your memories of, like, you can remember all the vivid details of that embarrassing moment. Rather than it being a negative thing necessarily, but you can pick that out in, in the world and pick out those vivid details. Whether or not they actually make it into the book or not, it’s just, it’s such great practice for the brain because if that specific detail that you just wrote down ‘cause, when you were at the coffee shop, doesn’t make it into the book, great, but you will find a relevant detail for that book that you can create even that is, that matches in a way, so it just ground the work so much more, makes it feel that much more real.

Zoe: Because one thing when, when I’m writing – and Nico’s my, my beta reader and my critique partner, and we’re married, so that worked out pretty nicely – is, he often asks me for specifics. Like, instead of saying something made him feel this way, or he had, you know, a memory of being back in the war and it still made him cold today, like, he’ll ask me for the specific, like, give me an instance where this happened. Ground this experience, or make it as, as precise as possible because that is so much more resonant with a reader than vagaries.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: Yeah, I mean, that’s, I think, how we wrap, we, we reach people at that level – also, we’re dealing with very close third person in romance –

Sarah: Yes.

Nico: – so those kinds of details –

Sarah: Very intimate.

Nico: – are so revealing, not only, they’re revealing of the character, and they’re also revealing of the writer. Like, yeah, I’ve, I know this person.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: And by the writer knowing that person and the person being that fleshed out, the reader then feels them, and that person becomes real to them, becomes that much closer.

Sarah: That makes sense.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I remember reading a, a description of embarrassment where, instead of, you know, my face was hot, my ears were hot, my scalp felt tight, and I, I was embarrassed at one point, and I’m like, oh, my God, my scalp does feel tight! Wow! That’s amazing!

Zoe: [Laughs] Right.

Sarah: When you notice those details –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – it, it does ground the characters into a sense of reality that makes it easier for the reader to connect emotionally –

Nico: Yeah.

Sarah: – because you trust that this is happening, and so you can engage your emotions as well.

Nico: It feels real, yeah.

Sarah: Yes.

Nico: And, and even with, like, historical details like with, in terms of, like, the war of the past, it’s like, that guy, that character would remember what event led to that, and if you open a history book, that event will be in there –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – so that if, if you’re reading this, this book, this fiction, the event is in there; it just, again, it makes it that much more real that these events did happen –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and they happened to this guy who’s a fiction, but he was in-, you know, involved in this truth, so it just, it brings it all together that much more.

Zoe: Mm-hmm. It distinguishes your work, you know.

Sarah: It does.

Zoe: ‘Cause, you know, we, there are a lot of books out there, and we –

Sarah: You don’t say!

Zoe: It’s weird, right? So –

Sarah: There’s, I don’t know, it’s, like, a lot.

Zoe: There’s, there’s kind of a lot, so –

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: – ways to kind of hook people and make you, I don’t say an auto-buy, but make you a memorable reader in the sea of other stories is –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – the specificity of your voice.

Sarah: Yes, definitely.

Zoe: Because there are topoi or tropes that we employ again and again, and then it’s like, but what are we doing to make it, you know, it’s – or the rollercoaster. You get on the rollercoaster, you know where you’re going to wind up when you’re, when you’re done, but it’s like, how do I get there?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: So that’s, that’s where that kind of mindfulness comes into play, because then you’re thinking about your voice. You’re thinking about what makes it special, what makes it different. What do you notice? What’s part of the human condition that you’re tapping into that maybe hasn’t been seen before?

Sarah: Do you think mindfulness and intimacy have things in common?

Zoe: Yes.

Sarah: Yeah. It just occurred to me that there’s a, almost like a, a relation there, because intimacy is very much about immediate and sensation and vulnerability –

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and mindfulness is also about all of those things as well.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Nico: Yeah. I think, I mean, I think the mindfulness for yourself extends out into an intimate situation, ‘cause it’s like, if you’re not, if you’re less judgmental of yourself, if you’re more accepting of yourself, it just makes that relationship or encounter that much more possible.

Sarah: Yeah.

Nico: And, and, and rewarding, ‘cause you are in that moment.

Zoe: And also cueing, getting cues from your partner or partners –

Sarah: Or the book characters, yeah.

Zoe: – what they’re feeling, what they need, you know, you, you get an, you get a sense, like if you’re mindful of their responses, then you can see, oh, I like, I think they like that. No, don’t do that, pull back on that, you know.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: I mean, you could verbally communicate, and there’s also nonverbal communication and awareness of each other.

Sarah: And then writing that down in specificity –

Zoe: Yeah.

Sarah: – makes that moment more realistic –

Zoe: Yes.

Sarah: – in your writing as well.

Nico: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: Exactly. Exactly. Also, sort of like when we talked about, like, sort of checking in with your body, there’s a meditation called the body scan meditation that is really helpful for grounding yourself in your body, and it’s just, like, how would you describe, Nico, how would you describe the body scan meditation?

Nico: I think you just kind of, you traverse your own body in awareness. So it’s like you, some people start at the top of the head, some people start at the feet, and you just focus on that area for a moment, and you don’t nec-, need to physically move it at all –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – but you’re just aware of it, and you’re kind of aware of relaxing it?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: And you kind of breathe into it, ‘cause the breath is still going, and you’re still focused on the breath, and you can, and then you, you know, say, start at your feet, you get a little, you breathe into your feet and you relax your feet. You’re aware of your feet, and that’s a good time to, where you’ll feel tension, you’ll know where things are hurting, and then you can kind of move up from there. I’m going to –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – now what’s happening with my ankles? And I’m going to focus on the ankles, ‘cause how often during the day, or during the year, do we even do that?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: You know, like, do we actually, like, I’m going to check in on my whole system here.

Sarah: Yep.

Nico: It’s like, if you get up in the morning and your shoulder is tight and you’re like, oh, my shoulder’s messed up, and it’s like, okay, you’ve noticed it because it’s a problem, but if you’re taking the time to do the body scan and just work your way through the whole body, you’re like, I might find these things early. I might just check in in general and just kind of see where my whole body’s at, and again that’s going to change intimacy because you’re aware of yourself –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and then you’re aware of sensations, and you’re thinking about things that might feel good that you never thought about.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: And then you’re aware of somebody else’s experience, ‘cause if you’re that aware of yourself, you know that someone else is experiencing the same thing, and I think it makes us, as we learn more about ourselves, mentally and physically, I think it’s, makes us better citizens of the world –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – to think about other people’s experiences, and not that we own those experiences or we understand them completely, because we can’t, but that we accept that there’s another entity there with physical and mental experiences, and to treat people with that rather than imposing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – ideas on them.

Sarah: And extending empathy to yourself teaches you how to extend it to others –

Zoe: Hmm.

Sarah: – and extending it to others –

Nico: Yeah.

Sarah: – teaches you how to extend it to yourself.

Nico: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: So –

Nico: Yeah, that loop.

Sarah: – what are some of the things that meditation and mindfulness have given you? How have you seen improvements in your own experiences?

Zoe: Well, I don’t make much of a secret of the fact I do have anxiety and depression, and it’s something that I’ve just had to live with my whole life, and I have found, I started meditating irregularly a few years ago, but I have been meditating regularly since the spring, and it’s made a huge difference in terms of my relationship to my anxiety, because a lot of times my anxiety presents itself somatically, that is, in my body.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: I will feel it that way. Even if I don’t feel emotionally anxious –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – I will feel physically anxious. And I’ve learned to have that compassionate distance. I’m like, you know what? I’m feeling it right now. It’s okay. It’s going to go away. It’s just what happens.

Sarah: This isn’t forever.

Zoe: It’s not –

Sarah: This is just for now.

Zoe: It’s just for now, and I don’t need to, like, tell myself a story about what it means. I don’t need to get scared. It’s just something that I’m experiencing at this moment. So that’s helped me a tremendous amount, just in terms of, like, managing my day-to-day life, you know, ‘cause it can impact that.

Sarah: Oh, a little.

Zoe: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, a lot.

Zoe: Yeah, exactly. And I’m still working, you know, in terms of depression, I know mindfulness and depression are, also go hand in hand. There are books about it. There’s, like, The Mindful Way through Depression, I think, is a book that’s out. I can’t remember author, but they sort of teach you that compassion for yourself when you’re experiencing it and sort of making allowances for when you do feel depressed. What are the, you know, good, like, effective choices that you can make? ‘Cause sometimes, you know, you can’t get out from under the covers, and you have to be okay with that, and then some days you’re like, I don’t feel like I can get out from under the covers, but I’m just going to try to get up and brush my teeth. I’m going to do this thing called opposite to emotion and, and just sort of see what happens, and then if that’s as far as I get, okay, and then I kind of retreat and then just sort of moving forward, but trying to get yourself to a place using mindfulness where you can be compassionate and kind but also proactive? I hate that word, but that’s –

[Laughter]

Zoe: It sounds like business jargon, but, yeah, something like that.

Sarah: So, also, synergy?

Zoe: Yes! Very synergistic. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I’m going to need those reports on my desk. Sorry. What about you?

Nico: For me, I mean, I, I don’t have the same approach that you do. For me, the mindfulness has really affected my creative process and the way that I’ve approached creative thought and – both in the writing and then also, like, ‘cause I, I build a lot of our furniture and stuff like that, so in the process of designing and creating for our home, those projects, and just kind of how I’m approaching it and how I’m allowing myself to be creative and the when of it, of, like, when to, when to do it, when to back away from it, when to take those breaks. It’s really helped in terms of that, and, and I think it’s helped a lot in terms of just that kind of general empathy –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – in terms of meeting and talking to people and knowing myself better –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – and then, and, and knowing my, that I’m a work in progress. It’s like, and I think that’s part of it. It’s like, I don’t, I will never know myself. I’m this – much like writing, the mindfulness is a process and art. It’s all a process, and that’s what it’s supposed to be. It’s supposed, there’s no end result. It’s just about what are you doing today?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: And what are you doing in the now? And, and sometimes in the now is daydreaming. It doesn’t mean you have to be completely focused all the time.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: But it’s about kind of allowing that and stripping that judgment away of, and, and being comfortable –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – doing that, and –

Sarah: And accepting who you are and what you’re doing.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: And in, like, as Nico was saying, there’s this notion of enjoying the process, because in this industry, there’s nothing that’s certain.

Sarah: What?!

Zoe: Yeah. Weird, right?

Sarah: Yeah.

Zoe: So you don’t –

Sarah: I work on the Internet; it’s the same every day.

Zoe: Right.

Sarah: It’s very monotonous.

Nico: Right.

Zoe: Yes, nothing ever changes on the Internet.

Sarah: Nothing ever – no, it’s so boring! Yeah.

Zoe: So it’s like –

Sarah: Yes, this is very true! [Laughs]

Zoe: So, you don’t, you don’t know, is your editor going to like it? Are readers going to like it? Are you, how much money are you going to make? How are your royalties going to be? Like, all of these things you have no control over, but the one thing you, you can exert influence on is your relationship to the process of writing.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: And the more you can invest that with joy and happiness and pleasure, which isn’t always easy, especially if you’ve monetized this!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: The, it will give you that sort of sense of freedom. You know, ‘cause if you’re focused on the bottom line and what other people think, you’re, it’s going to be much more challenging for you to really, you probably will burn out faster –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: – I would imagine.

Sarah: Yep. That makes sense.

Nico: Yeah, and these days it’s the long game.

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

Nico: ‘Cause it’s like, I don’t know if, I, I mean, other people have better eyes on the market side of things, but I’m not aware of, like, big splashes happening where people are suddenly skyrocketing to fame and fortune. I think it’s a longer process, it’s a slower process now. So it’s like, if you can invest in that joy –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – then it doesn’t grind you down as much.

Zoe: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And giving you a mindful consideration of your work helps you better answer the question, why am I doing this? Why is this the job that I’m doing?

Zoe: Yeah.

Sarah: Why am I doing this work right now?

Zoe: You definitely, like, that is a question that comes up a lot, ‘cause you wonder that, I mean, all the time.

Sarah: Ah, yeah!

Zoe: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, yeah, all the time.

Nico: Yeah.

Zoe: Yes.

Nico: And it, and it can help you if you’re, if you’re, discover if you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: It’s, it’s like, if you find that you’re writing and, and you’re doing this examination without judgment, you might be like, you know what, I’m just not a good fit for this anymore.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: You know, you can, it doesn’t mean that it’ll, mindfulness will, like, let you love every second. It’s like, if you don’t love it, it will, mindfulness will hopefully help you kind of find your way to discover the why you’re not digging it, and if it’s not necessarily fixable or if there’s not something that you need to repair, then it’s like, oh, maybe I should just bounce out of this –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nico: – ‘cause it’s just not my thing.

Zoe: Or it, you know, it doesn’t have to be as radical as, like, leaving writing completely. It just means that you, maybe a different subgenre is right for you. Maybe a different genre is right for you. You know, just sort of reinvesting yourself.

[music]

Sarah: And that is all for this week’s episode. I want to thank Eva and Zoe, who are the same person, and Nico for hanging out with me, and I also want to thank them for such a thoughtful workshop presentation. I think that’s a really brilliant idea, and I hope there’s more exploration of ways to care for your brain while you’re engaged in a creative process, ‘cause it’s kind of taxing when you deal with anxiety and depression and creativity all at the same time, and I’m sure many of you understand that problem.

If you have suggestions or ideas or you want to recommend a mindfulness app, you can email me at [email protected], or if it’s easier to remember, Sarah, S-A-R-A-H at smartbitchestrashybooks dot com [[email protected]]. Both end up with me, and I would love to hear from you because you guys are awesome!

The music you’re listening to, provided by Sassy Outwater, who recently got married! Yay! Mazel Tov! Yay! Happy, happy, happy. This is Caravan Palace. I’m still making my way through their two-album set, ‘cause it’s awesome! This track is called “Sofa,” because my husband and I just carried our old sofa out of the house, and I’m a little sore because sofas are heavy. You can find this on iTunes and Amazon, and you can find Caravan Palace on caravanpalace.com.

As always, I will have links to the books and the apps that they mentioned at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, or you can find us on iTunes.com/DBSA. I will also have links to their websites and their most recent books so that you can check them out if you would like. I hope that you do, because they’re pretty awesome. I’m a big fan of Zoe’s series, The Blades of the Rose. If you like adventure romance, you would probably really like that.

If you are a fan of the podcast and want to help us out, there are a number of things you can do, and I will tell you all of them right now. You can leave a review for us on iTunes or Stitcher or whatever podcast listening app you use. You can tell a friend or recommend the show; many of you have done so, because I noticed that our subscriber numbers have gone up a little bit, which is really cool! And if you’re interested in making a monthly pledge, head over to patreon.com/SmartBitches. All of your efforts make the show better and help more people discover all of the cool things that romance can do, which only benefits everyone, ‘cause then we have more books to read.

So thank you very, very much for being here and for listening. On behalf of Nico and Zoe and Eva and all of their pen names, all of the mammals in my house, and myself, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend!

[cool music]