At RT in May 2015, as always, I saw next to Jaye Wells during the book signing, which is one of the best parts of RT for me. This year we had a really interesting conversation about the idea of “strong female characters,” and what that means. Why do we use the word “strong?” What exactly are we describing – and how are the attributes of a character who we wouldn’t describe as “strong” different from one who is? Are there not-strong characters? We also talk about feminism, raising sons who like to read all the books they can get their hands on, and many other topics.
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Transcript
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[music]
Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 144 of the DBSA podcast. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and with me today is Jaye Wells. Jaye Wells, by virtue of the fact that her last name is Wells and my last name is Wendell, often sit next to each other at RT, and when we’re signing books there’s a lot of down time, and so we talk, and over the years we’ve had a number of really great conversations about writing and the state of the market and things like that. My first RT was in Orlando a number of years ago, and my first book in 2009 had just come out, and somebody was talking to me and talking to her, and the person who was speaking to her was really excited to meet Jaye, extremely excited, and looked over at my book and asked what it was, and Jaye hand sold her a copy of my book in addition to everything else that she was buying, and I was shocked, and I was like, why did you do that? And she said, any books that sell are good for all of us, which I now call the Law of Jaye Wells. It’s sort of like the publishing version of a rising tide lifts all boats. Any book that sells is good for all of us. So over the years I get to sit next to Jaye Wells and have really cool conversations when the room is full, and because we’re in the Ws we’re at one end of the ballroom and there’s lots of air conditioning, and we’re very, very fortunate. This year, we talked about strong female characters and why we use the word strong to define them, and what does it mean in terms of gender, and so I asked, would you please have this conversation with me where I can record it so we can share it, because this is really interesting, and she’s like, sure! So for today, we have strong female characters with Jaye Wells. What does that mean? What does it mean when you are trying to create characters that are female and flawed and real, and why does that always get boiled down to strong? Why do we use the word strong to describe them, and what are we saying about characters that we wouldn’t describe as strong. It’s a very long and interesting conversation. I hope you really enjoy it.
This podcast is brought to you by InterMix, publisher of Z. A. Maxfield’s My Cowboy Promises, the sizzling-hot new cowboy romance, available June 16th.
The music that you’re listening was provided by Sassy Outwater, and I will have information at the end of the podcast as to who this is and where you can find it for your very own.
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[music]
Sarah: So, we had this really great conversation at RT because everyone should publish with a last name that begins with W.
Jaye Wells: Exactly.
Sarah: ‘Cause our row is the best row. And we were talking about “strong female characters,” which is really funny because last night I was talking with my husband about Game of Thrones, which I don’t watch ‘cause I cannot handle that much rape and entrails in my entertainment, and he was talking about how much he respect, how much respect he has for some of the characters because they’re so strong. They’re such strong female characters are the exact three words, and I’m like, okay, so what’s a weak female character? And he sort of looked at me, and he was like, I don’t actually know.
Jaye: [Laughs]
Sarah: It’s like those three words automatically go together –
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: – even though they don’t describe anything, and you had many things to say about that.
Jaye: I have lots of things to say about that. Actually, I was thinking about this since our talk a lot, and somebody pointed out to me that the genesis of that term, that phrase, strong female character, probably was not having anything to do with women being, like, physically strong or mentally strong, but that it actually came from a strongly written female character, and by that I mean a character who is well-rounded, three-dimensional –
Sarah: Has flaws.
Jaye: – has flaws. So in other words, it, strong doesn’t have anything to do with physical strength but has everything to do with the, the writer’s ability to portray a character in a believable way, but I think that the phrase has really been evolved into meaning a strong physically, strong mentally character, and the problem with that is that strong is a really gendered word, because it’s a very masculine word, and –
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: – so when you call a female strong, people assume that she has to act like a man.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: And so, then when that female character doesn’t act like a, a gender-stereotyped man, then they say, well, she’s not really strong.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: Right? So you have a lot of problems when you start using that phrase, and unfortunately, I think we’re stuck with it –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jaye: – because it – [laughs] – like, it’s, like, I swear to God, I have not been to a conference recently where I have not been on a strong female character panel.
Sarah: [Laughs] Oh, God, that’s terrible.
Jaye: It is terrible, because all I end up doing at conferences is talk, is justifying why I write strong women as opposed to talking about all the other things about my books that are great, and it’s almost like, as a female author who writes strong women, or a male author who writes strong women, you spend all your time justifying writing complex female characters.
Sarah: Exactly.
Jaye: Which is ridiculous, so.
Sarah: But the, but the weird thing about being strong as a female is that it, it implies that most of the time most women aren’t strong.
Jaye: Yes!
Sarah: Because if you have to define women as characters that are strong, that means the adjective has to be there, because otherwise the assumption is that they are not strong, that they are, are weak or poorly developed, or they’re – who was it that came up with the sexy lamp test, where if you can replace the character with a sexy lamp and the character, you’re a shitty writer, and the character doesn’t need to be there.
Jaye: Exactly. Yeah, I don’t know who came up with that, but they’re brilliant.
Sarah: It is true!
Jaye: It is true, and it, you’re right. I mean, it does, saying strong female character makes it seem as if strength is the exception for women.
Sarah: Right, and I, I haven’t met any women who aren’t strong –
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: – in one way or another.
Jaye: Sure! Or a person who isn’t strong, and so, I mean, and I think that that’s the root of the problem, right. I, I, I, I was at a, a Dallas Comic Con yesterday, and I was on a panel, and afterwards, this man came up to me, very nice guy who, and I just love him. I’m, I’m, like, in love with him right now because –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jaye: – he was like, I have to talk to you. I’m writing my first book, and my, and my protagonist is a female, and I was like, great, and he said, and, you know, through most of the book, she has agency, and she’s strong, and she’s doing things, and she’s great, and he’s like, but sometimes she feels stereotypical, and I worry about that, because I really want to portray a, you know, a, a strong female character.
Sarah: Yes, dude, bring it, yes, please!
Jaye: And I said, first of all, kudos to you for trying –
Sarah: Yeah.
Jaye: – and for being aware of these things. I was like, but second of all, you know, it’s tricky, because you have to be careful not to go too far the other direction and make it so that women can never, you know, be vulnerable or act like, you know, a, a stereotypical female behavior. Sometimes women actually act like women. It’s okay to have that, you know, it’s, it’s okay to have, like, traditionally female behavior in the book. I was like, it’s, it’s, you have to be really careful, ‘cause it’s a nuanced thing, and I said, really what you have to do is know your character very well and know what drives her, what her goals are, and what her weaknesses are, where are her blind spots, and then write her like a person would behave with all those issues. Don’t write her as a, a strong woman, ‘cause then you’re being just as stereotypical –
Sarah: Exactly.
Jaye: – as the opposite end. And I said, and the other thing is, have women that you know that, you know, read it. Women who are, you know –
Sarah: Normal. [Laughs]
Jaye: – normal, but also who are mindful of these things, because listen, I mean, women have grown up in the same society and been brainwashed by the same media that the men have, and a lot of times women reinforce those stereotypes just as much as men do.
Sarah: So true.
Jaye: So, you know, I was like, show it to your favorite feminists and see what they have to say about it.
Sarah: [Laughs] That, that should be, like, the best fake, Facebook group ever: my favorite feminists.
Jaye: [Laughs] Yeah!
Sarah: The, the other thing about the idea of being strong is that in a weird way the antithesis of that is emotional.
Jaye: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Like, if you have great emotional fluency and you experience and share your emotions, then you’re not being strong –
Jaye: Oh, yeah.
Sarah: – so there’s this, there’s this idea that a “strong female character” is an emotionless character who does not display any reaction to the things that they’re feeling –
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: – which is inherently a masculine stereotypical expectation.
Jaye: Right, or they, if they do show emotion, it’s anger.
Sarah: Yes.
Jaye: You know, it, and, you know, I noticed this with my husband and myself is that, you know, he has, like, maybe four emotions.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jaye: Right? He’s like, he’s, like, happy, horny, angry –
Sarah: Hungry.
Jaye: – hungry, right?
Sarah: [Still laughing] Crying over here.
Jaye: I know that he has more emotions than that –
Sarah: Yeah.
Jaye: – but he is not, he is, he was not raised to be in touch with his emotions, so he, like, he has a very limited vocabulary when it comes to his emotions. Me –
Sarah: Yes.
Jaye: – I got every shade of the rainbow of emotions, and I can tell you exactly how I feel at any given moment –
Sarah: Oh, yes.
Jaye: – every nuance of those emotions, because, as a woman, I was raised to be in touch with those things, and that is a wonderful strength –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jaye: – I think, to have, and I think that it makes me a much better communicator, and it makes me more empathetic, and some people say that that is a weakness, but only if you’re defining strength by what is masculine.
Sarah: Yes, and, and that one of those masculine attributes is emotionlessness.
Jaye: Yes.
Sarah: I mean, I have two young boys, they’re seven and nine, and I’m trying to raise them to be emotionally fluent human beings –
Jaye: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and whereas my, my older son is very introverted and quiet, my younger son is like, here are all of my feelings –
Jaye: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – so it helps him a lot, because he is so often overwhelmed by his own emotions, it helps him a lot for me to be able to explain to him that those feelings are normal and that they have names.
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: But he has already encountered people telling him that he is soft, that there’s something wrong with him that he has feelings and shares them and shows them and asks people how they’re feeling, even though what he is is a very empathetic human being –
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: – regardless of his gender. And it’s like, well, shit, am I doing him a disservice? Because he’s going to be fluent in a, in a, in a society that expects a lack of fluency?
Jaye: I think that that’s a really important point. I have a twelve-year-old son, and it’s really interesting raising boys when you’re a feminist, because it’s like, you know –
Sarah: You don’t say! [Laughs]
Jaye: Yeah. And, and I also have the, the extra, you know, like, we’re going through puberty, too –
Sarah: Oh, fun!
Jaye: – on top of it, which is super fun.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jaye: But, you know, the thing is that that is where you have to teach them mental toughness, right? Is, is the ability to be different in a society that is not comfortable with difference –
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: – and, and, and then to question it and say, why is it wrong that I’m different?
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: You know, and so, and so that mental toughness, I think, is another kind of strength that is underappreciated – [laughs] –
Sarah: Yes.
Jaye: – for sure, you know, and being able to say, I don’t care if you think it’s weird that I am an empathetic person. Like, why, like – it’s wonderful that I’m empathetic.
Sarah: Yep. And also that when you are raising someone to be emotionally accepting of empathy and also the isolation that might come from being rejected from having, for having empathy in the first place, you’re also raising somebody who’s okay with not only being different but helping other people be different too –
Jaye: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – yet still being mindful of the fact that for us as adults, it’s really easy to be like, well, you know what? Fuck you! Unfollow –
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: – disconnect, I don’t have to talk to you, but when you’re in school, you can’t disconnect from those people easily.
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: It’s really hard to build that sense of strength when people are rejecting you for being who you are in whatever form that takes, and then you just have to go up and still hang out with them for hours every day, five days a week.
Jaye: Right. Yeah.
Sarah: Like, God!
Jaye: It’s so hard. I have a, I have a great story to tell you. My, you know, my son has a mother who’s an author, and so there is none of this –
Sarah: You don’t say!
Jaye: – there is none of this I don’t read books written by girls. That does not happen in our house, and –
Sarah: Yeah. Us here, either. [Laughs]
Jaye: Right, and so – or books “for girls,” no, that doesn’t happen – so, you know, and it started very young, ‘cause he really loved the Diary of a Wimpy Kid series by Jeff, Jeffrey Kinney I think is his name? And we read those books together, it was great, but then, you know, there was a lag, and so he found the Dork Diaries books –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jaye: – and loved ‘em, and so he went to the book fair, I mean, book fair day is huge, it’s like Christmas, and so we went to book fair, and he got the new Dork Diaries book, and he, he brought it out, and this boy was like, why are, why did you get a girls’ book?
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: Yep. And so, and he was like, what do you mean? It’s a good book. Like, that’s ridiculous, and I, and so I asked this kid in a very nice way, I was not mean, I was like, well, why do you think it’s for girls? He said, well, ‘cause it’s got girls in it, and it’s a girl’s story. And I was like, well, let me ask you something. I was like, I love Star Wars. Like, is that okay? And he was like, well Star Wars is for everyone.
Sarah: Ah, yes, of course.
Jaye: And so, even at, in, like, fourth grade, that message had already been –
Sarah: Oh, yes.
Jaye: – given, that things for men are for everyone, but things for women are just for women, and then in, in middle school, my son went to go get a book from the library. It was a YA book, it was called Poison or something, and you know, there’s a princess on the cover and whatever, and, and he wanted to get it, ‘cause all of his friends, the girls that he knew that are friends, they all love to read, and so he’s like, I want to read this book, and he took it up to the librarian, who was a woman –
Sarah: Oh, no.
Jaye: – and she said, just so you know, this book has a, a girl as the protagonist, and he –
Sarah: Oh, no! No!
Jaye: – and he was like, yeah, I know, that’s awesome.
Sarah: [Laughs] I like your son! But I’m not crazy about that librarian.
Jaye: No, I know! And that’s the thing. I mean, they constantly are, we, we constantly are giving kids these messages that things that are for, that are feminine are something kind of shameful or only for women or, you know, weakening somehow, and so, you know, these messages start very young, which is why, to bring it back around to the strong female characters, people are freaked out when they see women who are complex in fiction –
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: – because for, for all of history, women were the helpers, or they were the love interests, or they were the woman who died at the beginning of the story to give the man, you know –
Sarah: Motivation.
Jaye: Right? And so, and so now that we’re seeing books about women who have their own goals and their own quests, and they have, you know, interests beyond finding the perfect pair of shoes and, and, you know, the love of their lives – not that there’s anything wrong with those stories; I love those stories, but I think it’s also important to have other stories where women have larger arcs and, and more complicated motivations and goals and, because, you know, I think it’s a reflection of the way women are now, so.
Sarah: It’s true, and it also, if you want people to be able to find themselves, in the romance genre specifically, then it has to portray a wider selection of female experiences, including those who are not currently worried about finding their partner or doing anything that’s stereotypically feminine and are instead, would really like to wear, you know, full battle armor and kick ass.
Jaye: Right. Yeah. I guess, well, I think it’s, it’s tough, right? I’m –
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: – my husband is a great guy, and when I first got published, you know, I started noticing, I mean, he’s a huge reader, but I was like, why don’t you ever read books by women? And he’s like, well, I read your books. And I’m like, right, but you want sex, so you kind of have to support my career, right? Like –
Sarah: [Laughs] Yes, obviously.
Jaye: Now, he obviously, he loves my books. I mean, he reads them and, and loves them, but, but he didn’t read any other women, and I was like, why not? And he’s like, I don’t know! And it’s, and, I mean, I’m not married to a misogynist, right?
Sarah: Nope.
Jaye: I mean, it’s just, he was raised in this society where he’d never had to question that.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: And, and he said, you know, he loves space opera and he loves high fantasy, and he’s like, I just don’t think that women write those books, that, in the way that I like them –
Sarah: Nope.
Jaye: – and he’s not, it’s not that he – he’s wrong, of course; there are women who write those books, but those women and those books do not get the kind of attention in the market –
Sarah: Nope.
Jaye: – and also, you know, you might have read a book written by a woman and not known it because she had to take a male pseudonym –
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: – so that you would think that it was okay to read it. You know, and so, it’s, it’s, it’s a conversation that needs to happen, and it happens to more, and it needs to be a less combative conversation, because –
Sarah: Yes.
Jaye: – I think when, the minute you scream at somebody and tell them they’re a sexist, they’re, they’re going to shut down and not listen to you at all.
Sarah: Of course.
Jaye: So I kind of approached the conversation from, you know, just like, well, why? You know, like, let’s have a, an academic discussion, you know, if you can have an academic discussion or just that, you know, let’s, let’s not be academ-, let’s not be intellectually lazy about this topic, right? Because I think a lot of authors, it’s not that they are, like, raging misogynists. They’re just lazy. It’s easier to go with the stereotypical woman ‘cause you know how to write them.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: It doesn’t take a lot of thought to write the woman who needs saving from the railroad tracks, because you’ve seen it a million times and you know how that story plays out.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: And –
Sarah: All clichés are super easy to procreate.
Jaye: Yes, and, you know, I get it. I’m an author; I understand deadlines and things –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jaye: – and I understand that you have market pressures, but it’s worth it to, to, to try, you know?
Sarah: Oh, totally.
Jaye: It’s worth it to try, so.
Sarah: One of the things we talked about while we were signing books was the idea of the hapless and the competent heroine.
Jaye: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: And how we have these sort of groups of heroines, particularly in romance, where you have the extremely competent professional female character, and then you have the sort of hapless figuring-things-out character, which is especially common, I think, in small town contemporary romances. There are a lot of characters, and I think that there are more women than men, although there are some male characters that have this experience, where X has happened in their lives and they have to start over.
Jaye: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: They are restarting their lives, and they have no idea what to do because who they thought they were is not who they are now, and usually they inherit something – I’m, I’m lining up the clichés in my brain right now –
Jaye: [Laughs] Right.
Sarah: They have inherited something in a town with a cute name, and they’re going there to start over until they figure out who they are, and then they’re going to go back to the city because small towns are dumb, and then of course the city turns out to be evil ‘cause small town are awesome – cliché, cliché, cliché – but we have this, like, almost dichotomy of competent versus hapless –
Jaye: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and there’s not a lot of both. Like, you’re either always competent and super good at your job, or you’re always going to be figuring out, and then you gain your sort of agency towards the end.
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: And I think you called that the competence quest, right?
Jaye: Yes. Yeah! Yeah, I don’t know. I think this is a really interesting topic because, like, we can talk about it from the more, like, high-minded, like, what does this mean about, you know, psychology and, you know, like, that kind of thing, but –
Sarah: Why are we portraying ourselves this way?
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: Yeah.
Jaye: But then there’s also the thing of, we expect, we expect different things from fiction than we do from reality, and I think that if you put too much nuance and contradictory human traits in a character, then people say, well, they aren’t well written. You know what I mean? Like, even though, you know, ‘cause sometimes I am hapless, and sometimes I am competent. I mean, it just depends on the situation and who I’m with and what’s going on and, you know, I’m not always this outspoken, like, strong woman, you know. Like, sometimes I really do doubt myself.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: But if I was writing myself on the page like that, they’d be like, man, she’s all over the place! Well, that’s right, I am!
Sarah: [Laughs] Yeah.
Jaye: ‘Cause I’m human. But, but in a, in, in a book, people expect, especially in genre fiction, they expect to kind of know what to expect, right? I mean –
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: And so it’s tough for writers, because it’s hard to, it’s hard to really portray a character that’s that complex in a, you know, a romance where you have to hit certain conventions for it to be a ro- – you know what I mean?
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: Like, it’s a, it’s a really tough challenge, but, but the competence quest is, is, is really interesting because – I think what we talked about was that once a, a character is too competent, then the, like, the, the cliché is that she has to learn how to be, be vulnerable.
Sarah: Yeah, she has to learn her emotions ‘cause she doesn’t have them, ‘cause she’s too strong.
Jaye: Right. Yeah. And so –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jaye: – it’s, it’s interesting in romance, ‘cause we were talking about, like, how do you write a really strong, independent woman who doesn’t need someone to complete them? Like, how do you write that romance, right? Because, like, I, I was, my husband and I had this conversation one night. We were out on a date, and I was like, you know, what do you think would happen if we met each other now? We’ve been married sixteen years.
Sarah: I have had that exact same question – we just celebrated our fifteenth anniversary. I think we’re living each other’s back stories. This is creeping me out.
Jaye: [Laughs] Exactly. Well, so, and I was like, well, what would you think? I mean, do you think that we would, like, connect now?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jaye: I mean, obviously we’re connected now, but, like, if we hadn’t been, known each other all this time. And he said, honestly, I think that if you met me now, you wouldn’t put up with my shit.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: He’s like, ‘cause you’re forty now. Like, you don’t put up with, you don’t suffer fools, and you don’t, you know, like, you will tell people that they’re being dumb, you know? Like, he’s like, you would not have put up with the same stuff that you put up with when you were twenty-four, when we met, you know, and so it’s interesting. Like, writing a romance for a woman who’s been independent into her forties or something, late thirties, which is much more realistic for today. I mean –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jaye: – most of my friends did not get married until their mid-thirties or later.
Sarah: It’s true.
Jaye: And so, like, how do you write that? How do you, how do you write a romance like that? Like, it’s, you’re going to have change the paradigm a little bit from what is traditional, you know, but I would love to read books like that. Like, I, you know who I really love, and I always gush about her, and I think it’s a little creepy, is Victoria Dahl.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: Like, I love her books, because her characters are all – I mean, sometimes there’s this, you need to learn to trust again thing, you know?
Sarah: Right.
Jaye: But they’re super strong, they’re sex-positive, they’re independent, and those are the, those are hilarious, sexy books, and I –
Sarah: Yes.
Jaye: – love them. So it’s happening, for sure. I mean, you’re seeing, you’re seeing those competent heroines, but –
Sarah: Do you have a favorite Dahl that you recommend?
Jaye: Oh –
Sarah: For sex-positive badassery?
Jaye: Jeeze!
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jaye: You know what, I’m so bad with titles –
Sarah: Yeah, me too, welcome to my brain.
Jaye: The first one, the first one I read was about the brothers who own the brew-, the fam-, two brothers and a sister who owned a brewery –
Sarah: Yes. The brewery one?
Jaye: Yeah.
Sarah: Is the, the Donovans, so there’s Bad Boys Do and Real Men Will, but I’m not sure which book, which one is book one. Hang on, let me –
Jaye: I think good girls do is, Good Girls Don’t is book one.
Sarah: Yeah, Good Girls Don’t. So you like Good Girls Don’t.
Jaye: And, I think I read Bad Boys Do first. I don’t know which one I read first, but anyway, that whole series is great, and then her, the ones that are set in Jackson Hole are great, too. I’ve read most of ‘em. But back to the, the competence thing, now actually, romance is not, I used to write romance. I, when I started I was a romance, I would say, wannabe romance writer, but it was really hard – [laughs] – to do it real well.
Sarah: Wait, you mean, like, you can’t just sit down and whip out a romance like it’s super easy?
Jaye: No! And so I write urban fantasy, which is not easy either, but it, it’s a, a little bit of a better fit for me, I think, and then, so I’m writing this Prospero’s War series, which is, we’re on the third book now, which is Deadly Spells, and they’re really not traditional urban fantasy. They’re like crime fiction with magic or like a cop show with wizards kind of thing? And my main character is a cop. She’s pretty competent, comes from a back-, tough background, whatever, and it’s really funny, because she’s good at her job, but people get really mad because she is also a single mom.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jaye: She’s raising her little brother, Danny, and people get so pissed off – [laughs] – because she’s, you know, ‘cause she doubts herself as she’s raising him, and I’m like, you know, I don’t, I think that people get mad ‘cause it’s too honest, right? Because she’s, like, this competent cop, but then she comes home and she doesn’t know how to relate and be motherly to this kid, really?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jaye: And, and I think that that’s a dichotomy that I think is, is hard to accept is that you can be really good at your job and competent in some area, but in another area feel like you don’t know what the hell you’re doing. And so she makes a lot of mistakes, and people say that’s the, like, their least favorite part of this series, and I’m like, that, I don’t know. Like, I think that that’s really interesting.
Sarah: We’re also not very tolerant of other people’s parenting mistakes.
Jaye: That’s true.
Sarah: Like, I screw up parenting regularly, and I explain to my kids, like, you know, being a mom is not a job that I received training for; there’s no class. So I screw up, and I don’t like coming up with punishments; that’s why I make you do it – and they’re always more, way more hard on themselves than I would be – and I explain, you know, this is a job that I’m trying to do, and my goal is to make you into, you know, decently awesome human beings, and sometimes this part of my job is crappy, but I’m still figuring out how to do it.
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: [Laughs] And it, it is amazing to me how other women in particular are very intolerant of people’s, other people’s parenting if they don’t think they’re doing it right.
Jaye: Oh, yeah.
Sarah: I always joke that it doesn’t actually take a village to raise your child, it takes a village to tell you how you ought to be raising your child, but they’re not going to help you with it.
Jaye: [Laughs]
Sarah: They’re not, they’re not going to lift a finger, but they’re going to tell you you’re doing it wrong, and that village is everywhere.
Jaye: Right. No, that’s true. Yeah. So, I don’t know, I just think it’s really interesting, and I, and when you’re writing a female character that has kind of a non-traditional female job, there’s all sorts of weird things that come up. Like, you know, I mean, she gets scared and stuff.
Sarah: Yeah.
Jaye: Like, male cops get scared, too –
Sarah: Of course.
Jaye: – but we just, they hide it better, maybe. And I think also because it’s in the first person, the series is first person, so you get a lot of her internal, whereas if it was third person, maybe, I don’t know, deep third person you would get it, but, I mean, there are ways that, a lot of thrillers are not first person –
Sarah: No.
Jaye: – right? And so you’re, you’re not getting that internal struggle from, in their head?
Sarah: No.
Jaye: Right? So you’re not getting their self doubt and stuff, so I, I don’t know. I think it’s interesting. But I don’t know. It’s a very interesting topic, and I wish, like, what, what phrase should we use instead of strong female character? ‘Cause really what we’re talking about is just women who are finally being written in complex ways.
Sarah: Maybe the word complex? Because the, the question is, to whom are we describing these women? Who needs to know that they’re strong, and why are we using the word strong to communicate with them? Like, are we trying to find readers who haven’t enjoyed female characters that have been written previously? Is there a specific reader that we’re trying to, to connect with by identifying the, the heroines and female characters this way? I don’t know.
Jaye: I don’t know. Well, you know, urban fantasies are a really interesting example of writing the strong female character, and I think –
Sarah: Yes, it really is.
Jaye: – what’s fascinating, what’s really fascinating about it is ‘cause that’s really where we started seeing the strong female, you know, the tough chick in leather cliché.
Sarah: Yes.
Jaye: And I was thinking about this earlier. Like, I find it very interesting, because in urban fantasy, these heroines typically are Other, right? Like, they’re, they have preternatural strength, or they’re, they’re vampires, or they’re mages, or, you know, they’ve got demon blood in them, or, you know, something like that.
Sarah: Or they’re able to see and identify a world that they shouldn’t be seeing, even though they’re human.
Jaye: Right!
Sarah: Yeah. They have –
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: – they have gaze issues.
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jaye: And so, like, so, so I find it fascinating, and that, I mean, urban fantasy, very popular genre for many years, like, really introduced this idea of this, you know, badass chick, but the reason that it worked is because we weren’t writing normal women, I think. Right?
Sarah: Right.
Jaye: Like, we weren’t writing, like, nurses who, like, work a super-duper long shift and, and manage these basically superhuman feats, but they’re not superhuman. You know what I mean?
Sarah: Right.
Jaye: Like, we’re, we had to write about vampires and stuff in order for it to be accepted, but I think what it’s done is it’s wedged open this door, and now we’re more used to seeing strong, physically, mentally, you know, female characters, and so I’m hoping that we’ll, we’re starting to see it in other genres more, and, because it’s more accepted, and I think that that’s the thing. Like, you have to kind of get people used to new ideas.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: And I’m really excited about Mad Max, the new Mad Max?
Sarah: Oh, my goodness, yes.
Jaye: Because, I mean, they’re, I, I went and saw it again this weekend. It’s like, I never go and see movies twice in the theatre, but I could not help myself, and –
Sarah: That’s a significant financial investment now, going to see a movie twice.
Jaye: It is, it is.
Sarah: Like, when I was a kid, you’d go to a movie and it was, like, four bucks; seeing it twice, no big deal. Around me, movie tickets can be fifteen to twenty dollars, depending on where you’re going.
Jaye: No, I know, a matinee now is, like, eight dollars. It’s ridiculous.
Sarah: What, yeah, this is a serious, significant expense here.
Jaye: And then I had, you know, and then I al-, always have to get the popcorn and the Junior Mints and the drink, and you know, like, it’s a whole thing.
Sarah: It’s psychological. Like, you can’t sit down without popcorn. It has to be there.
Jaye: Right, well, and I actually, I pour my Junior Mints in my popcorn.
Sarah: ‘Cause you are a wise and good person.
Jaye: Yes. It’s a, it’s a tasty treat.
Sarah: ‘Cause that is how it should be.
Jaye: Yes!
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jaye: So anyway, so, yeah, major investment, but I, I actually took my son to see it. I made him watch the first movies –
Sarah: Yeah.
Jaye: – in it and stuff, and, and he loved it, and – but we talked about it, and we were, like, well, like, so what’s the theme of this movie? And, like, that kind of thing, ‘cause you know, I’m, I’m a writer, so I make him do those things, and –
Sarah: Mo-o-om! Go-o-od!
[Laughter]
Jaye: He’s like, mom. But I’m so glad that it’s doing so well, because now it’s like, oh, you can do that. It’s like when a, when a, when, when a story like that does well –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jaye: – it’s almost like it gives the industry permission to do more stories like that, and so, like –
Sarah: God, I hope so.
Jaye: – let’s see some more stories about toxic masculinity and women working together and, you know, portrayals of older women who are super competent, and oh, I mean, there’s just so much about it that’s wonderful.
Sarah: Especially that the week that it came out, it was number two to Pitch Perfect –
Jaye: Uh-huh.
Sarah: – which is about women excelling in an artistic field that is, at this point, pretty mixed gender. There are men and women and many other non-binary people who are full on into a cappella, which is so awesome –
Jaye: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – but that was, not only was it an artistic venue, but it was ambition, and it was, it was competitive, and that movie was number one, and then number two, we have Furiosa, who’s there, you know, with a metal arm kicking ass in the, in the desert.
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: The fact that those were one and two, I hope that opened the door at least two inches.
Jaye: Oh, yeah, for sure. Well, we hope so. Wedge it open a little bit more, incrementally. [Laughs]
Sarah: So what did your, what did your son think?
Jaye: Well, I mean, he loved it ‘cause it’s, he was, like –
Sarah: Shit’s blowing up!
Jaye: Exactly. I mean, he, he, he – ‘cause we made him watch The Road Warrior and Thunderdome, and Thunderdome, until I saw Fury Road, was my favorite. I mean, that movie is very important in my life, and – ‘cause Tina Turner, hello – but, so he actually liked The Road Warrior better, ‘cause he said he liked the car chases, and so of course Fury Road is a two-and-a-half hour car chase through the desert, so he was like –
Sarah: Pretty much, yeah.
Jaye: – that was amazing. So cool.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jaye: Yeah. He thought it was really, really cool, so it’s good. It’s good stuff. And I –
Sarah: And he’s twelve. He was, he was cool with what, what he was seeing, it wasn’t, like, too violent for him, he was, he was all right with it.
Jaye: No. And I mean, we talk to him about violence and stuff. I mean, I actually, like, I would rather him see a pair of boobs than see a ton of violence. Like, whatever. Like, you know, I think that we have a really screwed up relationship with violence and sex in our country.
Sarah: Yes, we really do.
Jaye: Yeah, like, like really, violence is our porn, and –
Sarah: It’s true.
Jaye: – and so, so, but we talk to him about it, and we’re like, you know, people really die, and there’s a – and he doesn’t play the really violent video games, and this, and this was a big deal. Like, I have a big issue taking him to see this movie, ‘cause I’m like, it’s rated R. There’s a lot of violence, but then it was like, butthis is an important movie because of the portrayal of the women and, you know, all this stuff, so, you know. It was a, it was a, it was a landmark moment, ‘cause it was like, he’s growing up!
Sarah: Oh, yeah. I, I was reading an article this morning about how we have this, not only do we have a messed up relationship with sex versus violence, but that we pressure women to breastfeed and then get mad when they do it in public.
Jaye: Oh, yeah.
Sarah: Because breasts are too sexual, but yet we do this huge shaming campaign that if you’re not breastfeeding, you’re doing it wrong.
Jaye: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: So breasts are sexual, but they’re actually not permitted to be used for their actual biologic function in public, and you can see any number of people getting decapitated at, like, 7:30 on television –
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: – but God forbid you show breast exam techniques on the evening news. Like, well, we need a warning for that because boobies.
Jaye: Well, you know, and it’s interesting, and this is, might be a little controversial, but – I am certainly no fan of rape. I don’t know any women who are. I am uncomfortable with depictions of it.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: I certainly did not like the famous scene in Game of Thrones with Sansa, but I felt like it was, it was so upsetting because it was a complete betrayal of her character growth?
Sarah: That is exactly what my husband and I were talking about last night.
Jaye: Yeah, but then, like, I watched the episode last night, and I don’t want to spoil anything, but there’s this really, like, violent, bloody battle, and it, it’s interesting to me, ‘cause we get very, like, upset about sexual violence, but other kinds of violence are fine.
Sarah: Oh, yeah, decapitations, no big whoop.
Jaye: Yeah, and so I just, I, I think that there’s a big conversation, and I don’t think we’re ready for it yet, but I think that there’s a big conversation that needs to happen about our relationship to violence.
Sarah: Yes.
Jaye: It’s really contradictory; it’s really hypocritical. You know, it’s –
Sarah: Wildly inconsistent.
Jaye: People get so mad – in my Sabina Kane books there was a scene, there was an orgy –
Sarah: Woohoo!
Jaye: No, my characters were not involved in this orgy. They, like, go to this house, and there’s, like, a party going on with, like, you know, there’s, like, there was, like, a little person, and there was a, like, a gimp – not a handicapped person but, you know, the S&M guy with the mask and everything –
Sarah: Yeah.
Jaye: – and they’re, they, like, come on this scene, and it’s, like, really, it’s supposed to be shocking, right, and kind of funny ‘cause it’s, like, so, like, not what they were expecting, and people got so mad at me. Some people got mad ‘cause they thought I used the word gimp to mean a handi-, a differently-abled person, which I did not –
Sarah: Right.
Jaye: – they clearly had not seen Pulp Fiction – and, you know, so there was some stuff like that, and I’m – or people get mad ‘cause she had sex with somebody, and I’m like, she just murdered someone. Like, my, that character is a vampire assassin. Like, she killed all these people –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jaye: – but you’re mad ‘cause she fucked somebody. Like, really?
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: Like, that’s what we’re mad about? You know, I just, it’s, I think it’s really fascinating, and it’s, so it’s interesting as an author to see the reactions people have to the books and, and, you know, not have an, not get upset about them, try not to get upset about them, but, but have a little distance and, and look at, like, well, people get mad about this, but they love this. Like, what does that mean? It’s a really fascinating perspective to have, to, to kind of see what people react to and, and what they don’t. So, I don’t know.
Sarah: It, it really is inconsistent, especially because violence happening to women that’s sexual is, is almost normalized at this point, which I have a huge problem with, and my, my big issue is that in romance particularly, we have, I think, a preponderance of rape and sexual assault happening to female characters.
Jaye: Uh-huh.
Sarah: Like, if there’s a bad thing that’s going to happen to a girl, it’s going to be rape.
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: Because that’s really the only bad thing that happens to women, apparently. That’s the only bad thing that happens to us, and I, and it bugs me because the, oftentimes the solution is falling in love and the hero’s magic ween, and everything’s much better, and she trusts again and love-, and everything is glorious and lovely, and I’m like, okay, well, n-, no. But on the other hand, given the number of rapes that happen –
Jaye: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – that are not reported, the number of rapes in romance characters may still be underrepresenting the number of sexual assaults that actually happen to women in the real world. So –
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: – we have all of these, and it looks like too much, and yet it might not be accurately enough.
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: That troubles the hell out of me.
Jaye: That’s a re-, that’s – yeah. I mean, you hit the, the nail on the head there, and, like, it brings up this question that I, I grapple with a lot as an author, which is, is my job to portray the world that I want –
Sarah: Yes.
Jaye: – in my fiction, or is my job to portray the world as it is? And I don’t think it is to portray the world that I want, because that would be very boring, right? I mean, it would not be good fiction if everybody got along and everybody’s personhood was respected and –
Sarah: And we never ran out of chocolate or beer or wine.
Jaye: Exactly!
Sarah: Calories didn’t matter.
Jaye: We all had great sex. Like, and that would be wonderful, but it wouldn’t be very interesting reading, right?
Sarah: [Laughs] Yeah.
Jaye: Because we read for conflict.
Sarah: And resolution, yes.
Jaye: And so, like, in my books, I mean, the, the Prospero’s War series is pretty gritty. I mean, there’s a lot, I mean, there is a, there is a huge scene in Cursed Moon, which is the second book. There’s a madman on the loose, he’s released this sex magic potion, and he basically roofies these sororities on this college campus, and they rape the men on campus, and it’s not an easy scene to read, I will admit it, but I really wanted to kind of talk about, rape happens to men too, and that there’s, it’s almost a joke if a man gets raped, you know, and so I kind of wanted to explore that idea, and the book really is about chaos and all this stuff anyway, and I get that a lot of people didn’t like it, but I wanted to say some things, and I wanted to talk about some things, and unfortunately, the minute that the scene happened some people just closed the book didn’t want to think about it, which I completely respect, because there are trigger issues and all sorts of things –
Sarah: Totally.
Jaye: – but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t talk about it. And so there’s a lot of stuff I put in those books that people don’t like because it’s gritty, but it’s also like, yeah, but it happens.
Sarah: And we still have this enormous level of discomfort with female sexual aggression and assertiveness.
Jaye: Well, no, and you know, the thing is, the, the next conversation we need to have is about the expectations men have in their own gender roles, and –
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: – as a mother of a son, I am very aware of this. There was a girl at his school, in elementary school, two girls invited him to come meet them at the park one day after school, and I was like, well, why? And he’s like, well, I don’t know. They just want to play. And I was like, no, they don’t. They want to be smooching.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jaye: They want to take you into the woods and smooch.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: And he’s like, mom! And I’m like, what?
Sarah: No, really.
Jaye: No, really. I mean, he was, like, ten at the time. And as a mother, I knew exactly what those girls were trying to do.
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: But my son, very trusting, not thinking about that stuff, wasn’t really going through puberty yet, and I was like, he’s going to get himself in a situation he is not ready for –
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: – and we never talk about boys not being ready for these things.
Sarah: No, and we, and we drop this assumption that men and teenagers should (a) have as much sex as possible and (b) should know what they’re doing without asking for help.
Jaye: Well, and I mean, we, we were talking about, you know, being in touch with your emotions. I mean –
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: – you know. The, boys get confused, and they have emotion, they have big emotions too, and I often, because they aren’t allowed – I, this is my theory; I, I don’t know – because they aren’t allowed to, to experience the full range of emotion, it all becomes anger, and that’s why you see a lot of aggression, right, is because they have to repress, repress, repress, repress, and then they’re angry, you know, and so, I, I think that it’s, I’m hoping that the more we see complexity portrayed in fiction of all characters, the more we have a discussion about the real complexity that exists in the world, you know, because we like to pretend that everything’s black and white, but it’s really not.
Sarah: No.
Jaye: And, you know, people are contradictory, and people are strong and weak, and oftentimes your greatest strength comes when you’re the most afraid, and, you know, like, these are things that fiction can really explore in a safe way. You know, you can try these ideas on.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jaye: On one hand, I get it, like, it’s entertainment, like, we’re just writing fun stories for people, but on the other hand, we’re not just doing that.
Sarah: So basically, the bottom line here is writing is really hard?
Jaye: Yeah.
Sarah: [Laughs] And it’s difficult, and that’s why it’s a tricky thing.
Jaye: Well, and the trick-, the other tricky thing, too, is readers come to stories because they’re, you know, they’re looking to escape reality sometimes –
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: And so, you know, some people don’t like it when you start shaking up the clichés, because they, it’s comforting –
Sarah: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Jaye: – for there to be order in the, in the, you know, this is what I’m familiar with, this is, this is the order that I’m used to, and it’s comforting to read stories where things are, are, are black and white and are easier, and I’m not challenged by the complexity, and so what happens is a lot of times, books that do challenge that don’t necessarily become commercially successful?
Sarah: Yep.
Jaye: And, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t write it. I mean, I, like, I don’t know. I, I don’t think any writer who goes into writing, I don’t think most writers go into writing ‘cause they, they think they’re going to make a lot of money at it, and if they do, they’re probably a little bit deluded, because they’re just not the most, like, financially secure career you could have, and so it’s like, well, if, if we’re not here just to make money, what are we here for? And you have to question that and say, you know, am I writing, am I here because I want to have a conversation?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jaye: And I want to entertain people and, you know, or am I just here to, to, to recycle the same stories over and over, and I mean, you know what? There’s room for all of that. There’s room for all of that, but –
Sarah: And, and it’s harder and harder to avoid that conversation now. I mean, it used to be that you would write a book and then someone would send you a letter care of your publisher –
Jaye: Yeah.
Sarah: – and you would get it weeks later. Now, someone’s going to tell you instantly –
Jaye: Yeah.
Sarah: – hours after the book is released, what they think.
Jaye: And I think it’s, it’s, it’s difficult, right? I mean, how many conversations we have about, oh, authors freaking out.
Sarah: It’s really hard! I have a lot of empathy for how hard it is to have somebody come at you and be like, oh, my God, I hated this! I’m going to tell you why!
Jaye: I mean, I mean, I’ve been called a racist, a homophobe, a fat shamer. I mean, I –
Sarah: What?!
Jaye: – I, every, every word in the book, and, but, and you know, my first reaction is, oh, my God. I am not those things! But it makes me look at it and say, did I really do a good enough job in that book? You know, was I, did I expose some of my own blind spots? You know, did I, was I fair in my portrayal of these things? And so, I mean, I think it’s eas-, I mean, it’s easy for me to sit here and say that. I mean, I certainly have days when I’m like, oh, my God, I’m going to light my hair on fire I’m so angry ‘cause somebody said something like that, but if you can take a step back and use it as an opportunity to say, you know, am I, am I being lazy? You know, or could I do better? And I’ve –
Sarah: Oh, yeah.
Jaye: You know.
Sarah: My first reaction to criticism like that is, oh, fuck, is it true?
Jaye: Right.
Sarah: ‘Cause I could be an unwitting douchebag and not know it, and I don’t want to be, but if I’m unwitting, I didn’t know I was doing it, and I can do better next time.
And that brings us to the end of part one of my interview with Jaye Wells. In part two, which I will bring you next week, we talk about her Master in Fine Arts writing program that she’s working on, as well as what it’s like to write outside of the genre that she’s most experienced in. We also talk more about writing and strong female characters and what that means and what it doesn’t mean.
But before we go, I thought I would bring you a small bit of listener mail, because listener mail is awesome. This email is from Amber, who would like to share with you some of her joy at being an interlibrary loan librarian.
Dear Sarah,
I’ve been a listener of the DBSA podcast for a little while now, and I figured you guys would be the best place to bring my own little bit of gleefully stunned bragging. I have worked in libraries, page to circulation clerk to interlibrary loan staffer, for nearly twenty years, and I’ve had the pleasure of watching the evolution of interlibrary loan technology blossom over time.
I’m a resident of Illinois, which I have to say has a lot of problems, but their internal interlibrary loan system is not one of them. Not since my family moved here in 1989 have I ever had to pay for an interlibrary loan item to be shipped for me. I was honestly confused and slightly horrified when I visited a friend in California and was informed that patrons of different library systems had to pay a quarter (gasp!) for an item from another system to be leant to them. This boggled me completely but let me realize how wonderful the Illinois library system’s interlibrary loan structure truly was. A few years ago I was promoted at work – I work in an academic library in Chicago – and moved into the ILL unit. This tickled me completely, as suddenly I had the breadth and depth of the ILL options open to me at my fingertips. I finally learned to make WorldCat, the OCLC search engine, work for me and was not only able to search for any little thing my heart desired – mwahahaha – I could order it myself and have it delivered to my desk! Seriously! The mail cart delivers incoming material to my desk for me to process, so I don’t even have to stand up. I honestly didn’t think life could get any better, but then I recently started using Goodreads – I’m a late adopter; I own it – and found the library search function on the single item records. This means that in under five clicks and a minimal amount of typing, I can order any book on my To Read list and have it delivered to my desk for free. I am living the dream.
At any rate, I do want to encourage your listeners to utilize their interlibrary loan systems if they’re available. They’re a great way to access material that isn’t available locally, and while it’s not instantaneous, it can certainly be a budget saver. And speaking as someone who worked in a very small town library, try not to worry too much if the library workers are judging what you order or check out. To be completely, honest, the little old ladies in front of you are checking out way more risqué stuff, and none of us circulation people are in any position to throw stones.
I’m also curious to see if you know of any good lists of non-England-centered European historical romances, specifically set in Spain, Italy, or Latin America. The really fun and lovely show Jane the Virgin recently featured an episode where the leads, Jane and Raphael, were dressed in historical romantic garb and did a short telenovela-esque dream sequence. I haven’t really been able to find much in those settings, barring a Fabio novel and a smattering of time travel to Renaissance Italy historicals. Any help you or your listeners could give would be amazing.
Thanks again, and have a good one,
Amber
Sarah: First, yes, the interlibrary loan is the greatest thing that has ever happened to me. If I can’t find it in an available library that I have digital access to, I have been interlibrary loaning the crap out of books that I otherwise wouldn’t want to pay for. But I am trying, actually, to get more matter, solid matter, out of my house and declutter and re-, reduce the amount of stuff that I have, so I don’t actually want to buy books, and that’s sort of leaching into my digital book acquisition, which doesn’t that sound weird? But, no, I don’t, I don’t want to own this, I just want to read it and then give it back, so I’m more than happy to wait on waiting lists and use interlibrary loan to get books that otherwise I would have just bought and then put on a shelf and then a couple years later donated. Being much more responsible, it’s like being an adult or something. The interlibrary loan for me is also free, it doesn’t cost me anything, and it’s wonderful. The fact that you can borrow a book from libraries that I otherwise would have to drive more than an hour to to get to the physical book itself, that’s just lovely.
As for romances that are historicals that are set outside of England, that is a harder question, and my brain is really sleepy because I have a cold, so I’m hoping that someone will be like, oh, my gosh, I know all of these books. The one that popped into my head first is by Kate Noble. It is book five in the Blue Raven series. You probably should read the preceding books to understand the scope of this particular heroine, but it’s not necessary. Part of the book – actually, most of the book – takes place in Regency Venice, and she, the heroine, Bridget, takes lessons from a composer. The differences between Regency England and Regency Venice are some of the things that the heroine discusses in her own narration, and they do take a side trip to other parts of Europe, which for me was one of the most fascinating parts of the book. I have a whole subcategory when I’m reviewing that I call Regency But Not in a Ballroom. Kate Noble writes a lot of Regency But Not in a Ballroom. They’re in the country, they’re at country estates, they’re not in London very much. This one went all the way to Venice, and I was really excited about that. However, my brain is not coming up with additional books, and I’m sure at about three in the morning it will. However, if you can think of a book that would fit this request, or you want to email about something else, email me at [email protected]. That would be super awesome.
I have one more email to share, and I have some news about Sassy Outwater, so –
This email is from Ainsley:
Dear SB Sarah,
I loved, loved your interview with Sassy Outwater. I am a regular listener to your podcast and know of Sassy from her music, but all of the other stuff about her, I didn’t know any of that, and when she said she wanted a T-shirt that said, “I am not your inspiration porn,” I jumped up and screamed Yes! Here’s why:
I swear I am not making any of this up. Like Sassy, I am blind. Also like her, I have fake eyes. The brain tumors? Yep, got those too, though mine aren’t cancer, but I have had eight of them, so there’s that. Also, I used to have a guide dog. She was retired and passed away right after the birth of my first child. I imagine her thinking, damn, I am too old for this, and I am checking out now before that stinky, drooly blob gets mobile. Whenever people tell me how inspired they are by me, presumably for being able to speak in complete sentences and tie my own shoes, I want to say, dude, you get that I’d rather just see than inspire you, right? So the inspiration port T-shirt, we have to make that happen.
With all the health issues going on, it’s hard not to feel like a freak of nature. Your interview with Sassy did more than anything has ever done to lessen that feeling for me. Thank you so much, and please pass along my thanks to Sassy for being so open about herself.
Sarah: Dude, you are so welcome, and you are totally not a freak of nature, because the nice thing about the internet is someone somewhere has the same things that you’re dealing with, maybe even a slightly different way.
But I do have news about Sassy. She is having surgery on June 10th. June 10th, as she puts it, is Tumor Killer Girl Day. She will be in surgery all that day, and her friend will be updating Twitter with the hashtag #TumorKillerGirl or #TKG with updates from the doctor as to how she is doing. Last I heard, and I saw Sassy at RT, the tumor had good dimensions, and they were able to get a sense that they’d be able to get all of it, so she says thank you to everyone for prayers and well wishes. She is kicking tumor ass, and it is hard, but she is almost done. So, if on June 10th you have a few moments to think some good thoughts, send them Sassy’s way.
[music]
This podcast was brought to you by InterMix, publisher of Z. A. Maxfield’s My Cowboy Promises, the sizzling-hot new cowboy romance, available on June 16th.
The music you’re listening to was provided by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This is Deviations Project from their album theIvory Bow. This particular song is called “Celtic Frock,” and you can find it online at their website, on Amazon, or on iTunes, and I will have links to this song and all of the books that we mentioned in, during the podcast in the podcast entry.
Future podcasts will contain the rest of this cool interview with Jaye, because we had a lot of things to say and were on the phone for more than an hour, and then I have other interviews scheduled that are also pretty darn cool.
In the meantime, on behalf of Jaye Wells and Jane and myself, wherever you are, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend.
[awesome music]
This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.
Very interesting topic and lots of stuff to think on. Re: Game of Thrones (which does indeed have many complex female characters but also a ton of disturbing violence), it is interesting to watch it’s online fandom. Some fandoms (like romance) are dominated by women and it leads to certain types of conversations. Game of Thrones (probably because of all the female characters) has a lot of female fans but it also has a lot stereotypical fanboys more than willing to show you their biases and sometimes their misogyny. It’s amazing the number of people who criticize the female Queen Dany for her ambition, her inflexibility, and her reliance on her family name as her claim to the throne while the same posters adore Stannis–who is notoriously inflexible and whose only claim to the throne is his family. They mock Dany for her youth and naïveté but we’re quick to jump to fanboy one Young Griff for… Well, being the male boy version of Dany. It’s as if there is this desperate need to see Dany displaced in the narrative by a male figure taking over her role, because goodness knows the young princess shouldn’t have a hero’s quest. It’s not that Dany isn’t flawed or that criticisms shouldn’t be made, but it amazes me when criticism of her is so much worse than of male characters who have the exact same flaws. And don’t even get started on a character like Sansa who fills a more traditional role and who male fans will say with great hostility that she bores them… Because hers is a more traditionally female role? Somehow it’s a lose/lose situation for female characters in some genre fandoms. They’re damned for defying their traditional roles and damned for being within those norms. Either way, with some fans, they just can’t ein, and like Dany, they’ll root for any male character to displace them.
I think comics writer Kelly Sue Deconnick started the “sexy lamp” theory mentioned in the podcast.
On ILL: Our system charges per book, so it’s not always less expensive. That said, the acquisitions people have been pretty good about ordering recent romances. I recently recced the Caroline Linden books because I wanted to read the rest of those Scandalous books and glory be they showed up yesterday.
On the Spain/Italy/etc set romances: Juliana Gray’s first trilogy of Lady Never Lies, Gentleman Never Tells, Duke Never Yields are set in Italy during the Regency era. They’re inspired on Shakespeare’s Love’s Labour’s Lost.
One other one I grabbed and it’s still free is Megan Mulry’s Bound to be Bride novella. That’s set in Napoleonic era Spain, but actually seems to feature Spanish hero/heroines. And rope binding.
What a great episode to be introduced to your site and podcast! I enjoyed it so much and look forward to exploring more.
I’ve been trying to listen to your podcast all day and only just managed it (I finally remembered I could listen on stitcher. Yay!). I’m pet sitting, so using somebody else’s computer, and their parental controls will not let me visit SBTB.
I’m 38 damn it!
Also on the list of sites I’m not allowed to visit: Dear Author and Bookriot. ‘Cause we certainly don’t want those young people reading books!
I tried listening on my phone, but their 4g and 3g coverage is in a black hole apparently so I’m stuck here with no bitches for support:(
I’m in HELL!
I’m currently standing very very still in the hallway so that I can comment!
Anyway, for the entirety of the podcast, or at least seemingly so, I was doing that bobble head thing, the one where you’re just agreeing emphaticly with everything.
Our children need to be tought to be emotionally fluent. Not just our sons, our daughters too, but perhaps most especially our sons. I think it’s true that people believe a man is weak if he shows his emotions, if he even has them, but that’s just simply not true. I think we have to protect our sons from that idea.
I’m absolutely in agreement over our obsession with sex vs our complete disregard for violence. I can’t believe how insidious this is either. Seemingly reasonable people will freak out over any mention of sex or sexuality, but the same people will watch unbelievably explicit violence as if it’s nothing at all, for entertainment.
The issue of breasts as sexual organs vs their PRIMARY BIOLOGICAL FUNCTION, oh my God, I just… Really!? And again, seemingly reasonable people…
And on the issue of over, or perhaps under, representation of sexual assault in our fiction – when I hear that argument against having that be a thing in our fiction I am stunned. I certainly don’t think it ought to be trivialized, or become a cliche or trope, but I don’t think we can avoid it and I don’t think we should.
I know that of my close friends, I am the only one who has not suffered any sort of sexual abuse. That’s a pretty bad percentage. I think it would be unrealistic if the majority of our heroines had not faced this in their own lives.
Also, as I said, 38, and single, and totally okay with that. I don’t even date, I’m not terribly interested. Too content on my own. I don’t put up with anybody’s $#!+. I quite try to make fools suffer…
But I love good romance!
As for the Strong Woman idea, I don’t know any weak women. I have read about weak women, but I don’t know any.
[…] 144. Strong Female Characters: An Interview with Jaye Wells, Part One – Smart Bitches, Trashy … […]
I’m passing this podcast on to my sons, who both grew up reading books by and about both sexes and who both want to be involved in the entertainment industry in some way. Hopefully this will inspire them to look more critically at what the media produce and how the media frames both fictional and factual stories. With luck the next generation will be more open to change and diversity as they take over the controls of media everywhere.
Also, please tell Sassy I will be praying for her during her surgery. My husband was recently diagnosed with a brain tumor also and his is inoperable, so I have a lot of empathy right now and will pray that everything will go well for her and she will finally be able to kick this thing to the curb.
Thanks for an enjoyable interview. I’ve been reading all of these via the transcripts.
Mary Balogh’s Beyond the Sunrise is set in Spain and Portugal during the Napoleonic Wars. The Wedding Journey by Carla Kelly is also set in Spain.
My library charges a standard fee of $3.00 for each inter-library loan book; sometimes I’m informed that it might be more depending on the lending library.
Carla Kelly has written some historical novels set in the US/Mexico. Some are mormony but still quite enjoyable.
Jane Aiken Hodge’s “Marry in Haste” is set in Portugal before and during the Peninsular (Napoleonic) war, with an English lead couple.
Frances Murray’s “The Heroine’s Sister” (one of my favorites) is set in the Venice of the Risorgimento (late 19th C – with hoop skirts!). English heroine (and sister) and Italian hero.
Historical romance not-in-England rec – Carrie Lofty’s Scoundrel’s Kiss; the heroine is English, but it’s set in Spain. This is a sequel to What A Scoundrel Wants, which was set in England, (it’s the Will Scarlett, of Robin Hood myth, romance) but I don’t think it’s necessary to read the first one to enjoy the second, although it does help to understand the heroine’s back story and motivations.
[…] a romance-reader community. They interview authors and also ruminate on important questions, like why do we have to use the word “strong” to describe female characters? We certainly never call a man a “strong male” character. I appreciate this […]
For Mr. Jaye: Naomi Novik’s Temeraire and Lois McMaster Bujold’s Vorkosigan Saga and World of the Five Gods (formerly know as Chalion) series. Enough said.
For Amber, it’s old skool, but Rebecca Brandewyne’s And Gold Was Ours goes from Spain to South America. No other guarantees, but IIRC, there’s quinine, boa constrictors, and a missing treasure of gold.
I loved this pod cast and agree with Coco, above, I don’t know any weak women, only strong ones…
Dennis