Smart Podcast, Trashy Books Podcast

144. Strong Female Characters: An Interview with Jaye Wells, Part One

At RT in May 2015, as always, I saw next to Jaye Wells during the book signing, which is one of the best parts of RT for me. This year we had a really interesting conversation about the idea of “strong female characters,” and what that means. Why do we use the word “strong?” What exactly are we describing – and how are the attributes of a character who we wouldn’t describe as “strong” different from one who is? Are there not-strong characters? We also talk about feminism, raising sons who like to read all the books they can get their hands on, and many other topics.

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Our music is provided by Sassy Outwater. This podcast features “Celtic Frock” by a UK duo called Deviations Project, which features producer Dave Williams and violinist Oliver Lewis – they have their own Wikipedia page. This is from their album Ivory Bow


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This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.

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  1. Lisa says:

    Very interesting topic and lots of stuff to think on. Re: Game of Thrones (which does indeed have many complex female characters but also a ton of disturbing violence), it is interesting to watch it’s online fandom. Some fandoms (like romance) are dominated by women and it leads to certain types of conversations. Game of Thrones (probably because of all the female characters) has a lot of female fans but it also has a lot stereotypical fanboys more than willing to show you their biases and sometimes their misogyny. It’s amazing the number of people who criticize the female Queen Dany for her ambition, her inflexibility, and her reliance on her family name as her claim to the throne while the same posters adore Stannis–who is notoriously inflexible and whose only claim to the throne is his family. They mock Dany for her youth and naïveté but we’re quick to jump to fanboy one Young Griff for… Well, being the male boy version of Dany. It’s as if there is this desperate need to see Dany displaced in the narrative by a male figure taking over her role, because goodness knows the young princess shouldn’t have a hero’s quest. It’s not that Dany isn’t flawed or that criticisms shouldn’t be made, but it amazes me when criticism of her is so much worse than of male characters who have the exact same flaws. And don’t even get started on a character like Sansa who fills a more traditional role and who male fans will say with great hostility that she bores them… Because hers is a more traditionally female role? Somehow it’s a lose/lose situation for female characters in some genre fandoms. They’re damned for defying their traditional roles and damned for being within those norms. Either way, with some fans, they just can’t ein, and like Dany, they’ll root for any male character to displace them.

  2. Julia (@mizzelle) says:

    I think comics writer Kelly Sue Deconnick started the “sexy lamp” theory mentioned in the podcast.

    On ILL: Our system charges per book, so it’s not always less expensive. That said, the acquisitions people have been pretty good about ordering recent romances. I recently recced the Caroline Linden books because I wanted to read the rest of those Scandalous books and glory be they showed up yesterday.

    On the Spain/Italy/etc set romances: Juliana Gray’s first trilogy of Lady Never Lies, Gentleman Never Tells, Duke Never Yields are set in Italy during the Regency era. They’re inspired on Shakespeare’s Love’s Labour’s Lost.

    One other one I grabbed and it’s still free is Megan Mulry’s Bound to be Bride novella. That’s set in Napoleonic era Spain, but actually seems to feature Spanish hero/heroines. And rope binding.

  3. Cindy Lowman says:

    What a great episode to be introduced to your site and podcast! I enjoyed it so much and look forward to exploring more.

  4. Coco says:

    I’ve been trying to listen to your podcast all day and only just managed it (I finally remembered I could listen on stitcher. Yay!). I’m pet sitting, so using somebody else’s computer, and their parental controls will not let me visit SBTB.

    I’m 38 damn it!

    Also on the list of sites I’m not allowed to visit: Dear Author and Bookriot. ‘Cause we certainly don’t want those young people reading books!

    I tried listening on my phone, but their 4g and 3g coverage is in a black hole apparently so I’m stuck here with no bitches for support:(

    I’m in HELL!

    I’m currently standing very very still in the hallway so that I can comment!

    Anyway, for the entirety of the podcast, or at least seemingly so, I was doing that bobble head thing, the one where you’re just agreeing emphaticly with everything.

    Our children need to be tought to be emotionally fluent. Not just our sons, our daughters too, but perhaps most especially our sons. I think it’s true that people believe a man is weak if he shows his emotions, if he even has them, but that’s just simply not true. I think we have to protect our sons from that idea.

    I’m absolutely in agreement over our obsession with sex vs our complete disregard for violence. I can’t believe how insidious this is either. Seemingly reasonable people will freak out over any mention of sex or sexuality, but the same people will watch unbelievably explicit violence as if it’s nothing at all, for entertainment.

    The issue of breasts as sexual organs vs their PRIMARY BIOLOGICAL FUNCTION, oh my God, I just… Really!? And again, seemingly reasonable people…

    And on the issue of over, or perhaps under, representation of sexual assault in our fiction – when I hear that argument against having that be a thing in our fiction I am stunned. I certainly don’t think it ought to be trivialized, or become a cliche or trope, but I don’t think we can avoid it and I don’t think we should.

    I know that of my close friends, I am the only one who has not suffered any sort of sexual abuse. That’s a pretty bad percentage. I think it would be unrealistic if the majority of our heroines had not faced this in their own lives.

    Also, as I said, 38, and single, and totally okay with that. I don’t even date, I’m not terribly interested. Too content on my own. I don’t put up with anybody’s $#!+. I quite try to make fools suffer…

    But I love good romance!

    As for the Strong Woman idea, I don’t know any weak women. I have read about weak women, but I don’t know any.

  5. […] 144. Strong Female Characters: An Interview with Jaye Wells, Part One – Smart Bitches, Trashy … […]

  6. EC Spurlock says:

    I’m passing this podcast on to my sons, who both grew up reading books by and about both sexes and who both want to be involved in the entertainment industry in some way. Hopefully this will inspire them to look more critically at what the media produce and how the media frames both fictional and factual stories. With luck the next generation will be more open to change and diversity as they take over the controls of media everywhere.

    Also, please tell Sassy I will be praying for her during her surgery. My husband was recently diagnosed with a brain tumor also and his is inoperable, so I have a lot of empathy right now and will pray that everything will go well for her and she will finally be able to kick this thing to the curb.

  7. Kareni says:

    Thanks for an enjoyable interview. I’ve been reading all of these via the transcripts.

    Mary Balogh’s Beyond the Sunrise is set in Spain and Portugal during the Napoleonic Wars. The Wedding Journey by Carla Kelly is also set in Spain.

    My library charges a standard fee of $3.00 for each inter-library loan book; sometimes I’m informed that it might be more depending on the lending library.

  8. Des Livres says:

    Carla Kelly has written some historical novels set in the US/Mexico. Some are mormony but still quite enjoyable.

  9. Rebecca says:

    Jane Aiken Hodge’s “Marry in Haste” is set in Portugal before and during the Peninsular (Napoleonic) war, with an English lead couple.

    Frances Murray’s “The Heroine’s Sister” (one of my favorites) is set in the Venice of the Risorgimento (late 19th C – with hoop skirts!). English heroine (and sister) and Italian hero.

  10. Alina says:

    Historical romance not-in-England rec – Carrie Lofty’s Scoundrel’s Kiss; the heroine is English, but it’s set in Spain. This is a sequel to What A Scoundrel Wants, which was set in England, (it’s the Will Scarlett, of Robin Hood myth, romance) but I don’t think it’s necessary to read the first one to enjoy the second, although it does help to understand the heroine’s back story and motivations.

  11. […] a romance-reader community. They interview authors and also ruminate on important questions, like why do we have to use the word “strong” to describe female characters? We certainly never call a man a “strong male” character. I appreciate this […]

  12. For Mr. Jaye: Naomi Novik’s Temeraire and Lois McMaster Bujold’s Vorkosigan Saga and World of the Five Gods (formerly know as Chalion) series. Enough said.

    For Amber, it’s old skool, but Rebecca Brandewyne’s And Gold Was Ours goes from Spain to South America. No other guarantees, but IIRC, there’s quinine, boa constrictors, and a missing treasure of gold.

  13. Dennis T says:

    I loved this pod cast and agree with Coco, above, I don’t know any weak women, only strong ones…

    Dennis

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