565. Once More with Feeling, with Elissa Sussman

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, happy Friday, happy June, and welcome to episode number 565 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and my guest this week is Elissa Sussman. She is back; she has a new book, Once More with Feeling; and of course I wanted to talk all about it. This book is very much inspired by popular culture, and you’ll find out which pieces very soon, but we talk a lot about the way stardom, and especially pop stardom specifically, has changed since the early 2000s.

I do want to flag that because we’re talking about pop stars from that period, there are references to disordered eating, anti-fat bias, and some absolutely astonishing misogyny.

I will have links to everything we mention that you might want to be checking out in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

I have a compliment this week, which makes me so happy.

To Autumn: A recent scientific poll has revealed that you are more charming and entertaining and adorable than a gathering of eighteen baby goats wearing matching handmade capes. Science is facts!

If you have supported the show with a monthly pledge, thank you so very much. You’re keeping me going, you’re making sure that every episode has a transcript hand-compiled by garlicknitter – hey, garlicknitter! – [Hey! – gk] – and you help support this program, which means more than I could possibly say right now. If you would like to join the Patreon, the benefits are fantastic – I mean, I think so anyway. There is a Discord filled with some of the most lovely human beings, and there are bonus episodes every two weeks, so if you are interested and would like to support this program, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

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Are you ready to get started? Let’s do this podcast. On with my conversation with Elissa Sussman.

[music]

Elissa Sussman: Hi, everyone! This is Elissa Sussman. I am the author of the just-released Once More with Feeling and also Funny You Should Ask and several YA novels. I’m a writer who lives in Los Angeles with many pets.

Sarah: And some excellent plants, which I can see behind you.

Elissa: And a lot of plants.

Sarah: Lot of plants.

Elissa: Lot of pets, lot of plants, yes. Yeah.

Sarah: This is, these are a good pair of things to have.

Elissa: I, I mean, what, what more do you need? What more do you need?

Sarah: So congratulations!

Elissa: Thank you!

Sarah: Yay, second book!

Elissa: Yay!

Sarah: What is your favorite elevator pitch for this novel?

Elissa: For Once More with Feeling I, I wrote it down because it’s a little, it, it gets, like I, I, it came with the perfect elevator pitch, so it’s like, I have to remember this, and I haven’t memorized it yet, but Once More with Feeling is a friends-to-lovers-to-enemies-to-lovers romance about two former pop stars who reunite first time since a career-ending scandal to bring a musical to Broadway.

Sarah: Yes! So many things to ask you. So many things. Okay.

Elissa: [Laughs] It’s a lot of elements in this book.

Sarah: I, I, I love when I look at a synopsis and I’m like, Oh, wait a minute. I think I know what might have inspired this part, and I think I know what might have inspired that part. Oh, I hope I’m right!

Elissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And I was right; I was very excited about that. So I know Funny You Should Ask, your first book is about, is, is based partially on celebrity profiles, one particularly infamous celebrity profile in particular. And –

Elissa: Yes.

Sarah: – a lot of the book explores the sort of distance between the PR narrative of celebrity and the private narrative of celebrity. And when, and like we talked about when you were on this show the last time how journalists sort of straddle both sides? Like, they have access to the PR machine, but they’re also trying to get the, the private narrative as well? So please –

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – tell me some of the elements of pop culture that are in Once More with Feeling.

Elissa: Mm, yeah. I mean, there is, it’s a lot of pulling from the, you know, pop machine of – I believe,  believe we are around the same age.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: And, and how intense that was, and I, and I feel like our culture’s sort of revisiting how we took all of that in and how we didn’t really question things we should have questioned?

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: You know, we have the, all of those great documentaries on Britney Spears; the Jessica Simpson memoir, which is amazing; you know, and, and then just, just remembering that stuff from being a teenager. So really pulled a lot from that and just remembering how, how we talked about young women?

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Elissa: You know, these, a lot of these pop stars were, were growing up at the same time, they were our age, and how easy it was to villainize them and make them seem like they were in control of their narratives?

Sarah: Which –

Elissa: When –

Sarah: – they were not –

Elissa: Which is, I mean –

Sarah: – in control of anything!

Elissa: – they were children! They were kids!

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: Like, the older I get the more where I’m just like, Eighteen is like you’re a baby, you’re so young!

Sarah: Oh yeah! I have a seventeen-year-old –

Elissa: You know?

Sarah: – and I look at, I look at the, the 2000s and Britney and Christina and Jessica and Mandy Moore, and I look at that and I’m like, Those, those are, those people were my son’s age, and I would never send him out into that environment by himself.

Elissa: Right, yeah! It’s really, it, it just seems really intense that, that it’s, and it still happens, you know? Like, I was read-, you know, you read Jennette McCurdy’s memoir, which is incredible –

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Elissa: – and she’s, you know, she’s younger than us, but it’s, you know, that stuff is still happening. It’s definitely still – the protections are not there yet.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: I think we’ve learned a lot; I think, you know, they’re, I think young people coming into the industry are safer?

Sarah: I hope.

Elissa: But I don’t know how much more safer, yeah. I think, I think, you know, there’s, they do have a little more control, having so-, I think social media gives them a little more control?

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: Them being able to speak to their fans without having to go through the tabloids and the media? But this, yeah, it’s really complicated, and the lines of, of what you owe people continue to blur –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Elissa: – and I think that’s really, really hard when you’re a teenager and you want to please everybody and you want to, you know, just be, be popular and be loved and, you know, I think that’s a super normal feeling to have when you’re that age…

Sarah: Yeah! Especially because essentially these are all theater kids, right? Like, speaking of Once More with Feeling, these are all just –

Elissa: Yes!

Sarah: – theater kids!

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, Britney Spears just really liked dancing. She just wanted to –

Elissa: Yeah!

Sarah: – dance on stage.

Elissa: She wanted to dance on stage; she wanted to perform.

Sarah: Yeah!

Elissa: I think she did have musical theater aspirations; I think she, you know, was – and, like, you listen to early tapes of her singing, and the way her voice sounds –

Sarah: Oh my gosh, on Star Search?

Elissa: Yes! Like –

Sarah: It’s so different!

Elissa: It’s so different, and, you know, I remember when she was doing some of her records and, and I don’t know much about music, but I remember having a roommate who was like, You don’t understand how difficult it is, like, to do some of the things that she’s doing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: – just with her voice.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Elissa: And I was like, you know, I, we just don’t, we don’t think of her, her or Mandy Moore or Christina or Jessica, we don’t give them any credit for having a lot of talent; like, a lot of talent and charm and charisma.

Sarah: Staggering, oh yeah. And the ability –

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – to make it look so effortless.

Elissa: So effortless, yeah. And I think one of the biggest things that inspired this book, there’s this great YouTube video where it juxtaposes, it’s, it’s the Britney Spears performance where she does “(I Can’t Get No) Satisfaction” and “Oops!…I Did It Again;” she had this, like, this mix, this –

Together: – mashup?

Sarah: Yeah?

Elissa: I want, I want to say it was, like, for the Grammys or something, and you can watch the rehearsal footage and the show footage, and it’s, I mean, her, she, the way, like, you just really see how hard she’s working –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Elissa: – and how much work she’s putting into it, and also, like, she is having a great time!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: She is, like, really enjoying it and, like, enjoying showing her body and enjoying sort of like being on, like – I mean, I’m projecting – it looks like she’s having a good time. She’s in rehearsal, but –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – I mean, she’s just, like, giving it everything, and that was just really a big inspiration for this book, just, like – ‘cause I, I wanted to do, I wanted to write about someone who, I think sometimes you read a lot of, like, celebrity books about women being celebrities?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: And especially, like, child celebrities? And it’s about how they were forced into it?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: And they didn’t, you know, they were really actually very shy, and they, you know, were sort of told by other people that they have this talent, and I really wanted Kathleen to be like, I know I’m good, and I want to be on stage –

Sarah: Yeah!

Elissa: – and I love singing, I love performing. Because I think that’s, you know, there’s, just because you want that doesn’t mean the world should treat you the way that we treat these women.

Sarah: Yes.

Elissa: You know, it’s like there’s no shame in wanting to, in wanting to perform and be a star and have accolades and applause and all that stuff.

Sarah: No!

Elissa: But we, you know, I think we sometimes have this mentality of like, Well, they asked for it ‘cause they wanted it. You know, Britney Spears asked for it because she want, she wanted to be a star.

Sarah: Yeah, but –

Elissa: …do whatever we want.

Sarah: – like, you can set terms on how that works. If you’re an adult you do! But if, if you’re a child star then you get like no boundaries.

Elissa: Right.

Sarah: One thing that I, I’ve, I think about a lot with the, especially that particular group of pop stars, ‘cause, I mean, obviously Once More with Feeling is based slightly (heavily) in Britney and Justin.

Elissa: [Laughs]

Sarah: And the –

Elissa: Just a bit, just a bit.

Sarah: Just a bit, right?

Elissa: Just a bit.

Sarah: And I, I, I had three very different thoughts. One: when I look back at that group of pop stars, it is wild to me that there was this question like, there can only be one. There can only be one pop princess, but, like, we have ten guys between Backstreet Boys and NSYNC, let alone before you bring in, like, what’s the one that –

Elissa: Yeah, but…

Sarah: – Nick Lachey was in?

Elissa: Yeah, that’s what I was trying to remember.

Sarah: The ones where they always, like, muscle-y guys crooning in white shirts is the only thing I remember.

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, we, we have like twenty-five different boy band members, and they’re all fine, but we can only have one pop princess –

Elissa: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and these girls have to duke it out, and then they’re paired and put against each other, and it’s like, this is, this is really gross!

Elissa: I mean, it’s like the April O’Neil complex where it’s like you have the four ninja turtles –

Sarah: Yep.

Elissa: – and then you have one female character.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah!

Elissa: You cannot have any more than that.

Sarah: I mean –

Elissa: And, and I think it’s also, you know, like, I kind of touch on it a little bit in the book, but it’s like the guys, they have each other –

Sarah: Yeah!

Elissa: – at the very least.

Sarah: Yeah!

Elissa: You know, even if they don’t, like they don’t have closest friendships ever, but that’s a support system. All these women are young – all these girls, at the time – are –

Sarah: Completely alone.

Elissa: – totally on their own.

Sarah: Yeah!

Elissa: And the whole, everything relies on them. There’s no, there’s no backup; there’s no, like, the pressure is completely on them to be on and performing constantly –

Sarah: Yeah!

Elissa: – and, and like –

Sarah: And like you said, they’re eighteen? And then they look around the stage and they go, Wow, if I quit, all these people who are older than me, who have families, they’re out of a job, and the pressure of you have to support your family, you have to support your parents. Look at all these people who work for you; you have to support them too? It’s like, that’s a lot to put on a teenager, whose brain is not fully, fully formed yet.

Elissa: Yeah! I mean, that is, that is so much responsibility, and, and then you add it, you add the extra level of, like, it’s not even your talent that’s, that we care about? It’s, like, how you look.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Elissa: You know, so it’s like –

Sarah: Ugh!

Elissa: – you better, you better look and act the way that we want you to. That is more important than, you know, being able to, like, sing well or dance well. The thing that you wanted to do, the thing that, like, brought you to this career in the first place, that doesn’t matter anymore.

Sarah: No.

Elissa: It’s about how you look and, you know, like, you think about poor Jessica Simpson, like –

Sarah: Oh my God! People talked about her –

Elissa: I know.

Sarah: – like she was so fat, and I look and I’m like, She is so tiny! She is such a teeny, teeny –

Elissa: Is tiny!

Sarah: – little person! And now people are, people are, are mocking her appearance because she’s too thin! And I’m like, You really cannot win –

Elissa: You can’t.

Sarah: – even now in 2023.

Elissa: No.

Sarah: You cannot.

Elissa: No.

Sarah: It’s gross.

Elissa: There’s, there is no winning. It’s, it’s horrible, and –

Sarah: It’s super gross.

Elissa: I mean, at least I think, I think she, you know, writing her memoir I think was such a great – it’s, I mean, it’s so readable; it’s so beautiful. And, and fuck Nick Lachey. I mean –

Sarah: Oh!

Elissa: – and all the guys that she, like – John Mayer?

Sarah: Oh, John Mayer –

Elissa: Jesus!

Sarah: Oh. It, it – he’s like my problematic, he’s my number one problematic fave. Like, I dig some, some of his music I will put it on and be like, This is exactly what I needed right now. I wish you were not so disgusting, sir.

Elissa: Yeah! I wish you were – like, and I think the thing about him – like, not to get into too much – [laughs] – celebrity gossip –

Sarah: Oh, like, like that’s a problem.

Elissa: – is to smear, smear John Mayer’s name, but, like, I think the thing that’s so funny and that came out with the, with the Jessica Simpson thing is that, like, he seems like such an egotist?

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

Elissa: But in such denial. Like, just has this, this persona of, like, not caring about the way he’s perceived? But, like –

Sarah: Yes.

Elissa: – you know, when you read about that stuff you’re like –

Sarah: The, the faux humility? Ugh.

Elissa: Yeah, ugh.

Together: Ugh.

Sarah: And then you have someone like Justin Timberlake, who cannot do a thing without bringing up Britney Spears.

Elissa: I – yeah.

Sarah: That relationship –

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – was literal decades ago, yet –

Elissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – that is what he bases all of his promotional work on? Like, my dude, you are literally married with children. Why is this your marketing angle?

Elissa: Yeah, can you imagine being his wife and having to hear that all the time?

Sarah: Ugh! Yeah! Like, and, and that’s the thing where I’m like, Okay, you are now part of this industry for so long, and you are a full adult. Like I said, you got small humans, and I’m assuming you have a nice house, maybe three? You can –

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – you can have some input and direction into your marketing and into the narrative that is being sent out about you to promote whatever it is you’re doing right now.

Elissa: Right.

Sarah: That’s a choice. It’s a terrible choice –

Elissa: Oh, it’s –

Sarah: – but it’s a choice.

Elissa: – absolutely a choice.

Sarah: Like, what are you doing, my dude? And yet –

Elissa: I mean, I think, I think he, he, it was, he rode that, you know, wave of publicity for so long and, and didn’t look up to see that, Oh, I’m not, it’s not getting received the way it used to be.

Sarah: No.

Elissa: I think, you know, he’s –

Sarah: Britney cheated on me! Like, my dude, you cheated on her. Like, so much!

Elissa: I mean, like –

Sarah: Like, so much!

Elissa: Also, like so much of, you know, a lot of stuff in Once More with Feeling is, like, about the fact that, like, the, the woman in a relationship gets all the pushback. Like…

Sarah: Yes! That’s what I was going to ask you about!

Elissa: It’s about the guy that she, that, that Britney cheated with, and it’s like, it did not – you know, if, if you, if you, like, paid attention to the rumors, like, you were closest to that person too, but, like, you felt it, you were keeping his identity a secret. Like, you didn’t feel the need to drag him into it.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: And so I was, like, interested in exploring that dynamic of, like, yeah, it’s always, it’s always the woman’s fault.

Sarah: And it’s –

Elissa: It’s always the woman’s fault.

Sarah: – it’s always going to be her that’s dragged with some kind of sexual consequence. You were too –

Elissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – you were too slutty; you were too pretty; you were too thin; you were too fat! You were too much. And then, and then you have the element –

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – where these are theater kids, and part of being a theater kid is having a bit of a cringey try-hard element to your personality ‘cause you’re a theater kid! It’s baked in there; you can’t –

Elissa: Yeah!

Sarah: – you can’t pull apart Pop-Tarts; you can’t separate the filling. There is an element of –

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – trying, and we are so unforgiving to women who try. Men? Trying is fine. You can try as hard as you want and like, Oh, he’s so earnest! He’s so in touch –

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – with his emotions! Look at him articulating what he wants! Any woman who tries, like, look at all the hate Anne Hathaway got because she was trying!

Elissa: Yeah! She was saying, This is what I want –

Sarah: Yeah!

Elissa: – and people were like, Oh, how dare you?

Sarah: [Gasps] How dare!

Elissa: How, how dare you want an Academy Award? You think – like, what actor doesn’t? [Laughs] I mean, come on! Like, you know, even Joaquin Phoenix, who said, Oh, awards don’t matter, or whatever, like, he showed up for, to get his award, so –

Sarah: I am relatively certain he had a tux fitting or two to prepare for the Academy Awards.

Elissa: Oh, I’m sure; I am sure.

Sarah: He didn’t roll in there in a pair of sweats and be like, Yeah, this is fine.

Elissa: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it’s just, yeah. You’re, you, there’s no way to do it right if you’re a woman –

Sarah: No.

Elissa: – and, and, and yeah! And like, as a former theater kid myself it’s like, there, like, I, I think it’s so – it’s why I love theater kids.

Sarah: Oh –

Elissa: It’s like, I love the, I love the earnestness of, like, I want to do something that allows me to burst into song –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – for really no reason –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – and do it well. Like –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Elissa: – oh my God, it’s so great; it’s so amazing.

Sarah: And that theater energy is contagious, too. Like, one of my sons was in the pit orchestra for the spring musical this year, and my other son was on tech.

Elissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: So neither of them was on stage performing, but they were so into it.

Elissa: I love it.

Sarah: And they were all behind the scenes moving props around and playing, playing, like – it’s amazing that we have enough talented musicians in this high school that they have a live orchestra for the musicals? It’s not recorded. It’s –

Elissa: That’s amazing!

Sarah: It’s incredible, and there’s, the stage has an actual pit? Like, under the stage there’s an orchestra pit? I –

Elissa: The fact that you have a tech crew, even.

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I will say the pit does smell like pot, a hundred percent, year round, no question.

Elissa: Oh.

Sarah: It, it, you know, but it is a high school pit, so there you go.

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: But, like, even that energy is, is, the energy of being around somebody creating something fun is a wonderful, contagious, buoyant energy, and yet we punish women for displaying that?

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: But a guy who tries and tries and tries, that’s fine. That’s fine.

Elissa: Yeah! Of course! It’s, it’s almost like he’s doing us the favor –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: – [laughs] – you know? And it’s like, Okay. Nonononono. Yeah.

Sarah: So in –

Elissa: But I mean, like, yeah.

Sarah: – in this book, in Once More with Feeling, you have what I call a douche triangle? So you have a sort of love triangle –

Elissa: [Laughs]

Sarah: – but one of the characters is an absolute douche, and you know they’re not going to be chosen. But it’s like, how are they going to –

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – screw up the other two? So you have a douche triangle.

Elissa: A douche triangle, yeah, that’s, yeah, true!

Sarah: Yeah! And it’s funny; I once had someone say, You know, you, you, you shouldn’t use the word douche to be negative, because it’s associated with women’s genitalia, and my thought is always, Douching is completely unnatural and enforced on us by the patriarchy, and it’s actually bad for us, so yeah, let’s call things douche-y –

Elissa: Yeah, we –

Sarah: – ‘cause we don’t want douches –

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – in literal or, or figurative form. So you have a douche triangle –

Elissa: Yeah, that’s actually perfect!

Sarah: Yeah, exactly! [Laughs] That’s what I thought!

Elissa: Yeah. Yeah!

Sarah: You have a, a douche triangle with your characters. Can you talk a little bit about the dynamic between the three of them?

Elissa: Yeah! I mean, I think it’s, it’s a pretty, it was a fun dynamic. So it’s, it’s our heroine Kathleen, who’s known as Katee Rose as a, as a teen. And –

Sarah: Such a good pop star name, by the way?

Elissa: So much.

Sarah: Such a good pop star name. Names are hard, so mad props.

Elissa: Names really, I mean, coming up with Cal’s name took me so long…

Sarah: [Laughs]

Elissa: I don’t know why, and people – [laughs] – I know people are a hundred percent on board with it, but I love it. And I wanted him to have a three, three-name name, so it’s Calvin Tyler Kirby.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: ‘Cause I feel like that’s, that’s definitely a, a boy pop star thing.

Sarah: Oh, three names? Yeah.

Elissa: Three names.

Sarah: Three names.

Elissa: And I wanted him to just hate being referred to by all three names, which he does. So, so Cal is Kathleen’s, like, childhood friend. They went to theater camp together and haven’t seen each other for years, and then Ryan LaNeve is the boyfriend that she has when we meet her as a teenager that she met on a TV show that they were both on together.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: And he was the star, and she was backup, and now he is a member of a boy band, CrushZone, with Cal, and she’s –

Sarah: Another good name, by the way.

Elissa: My friend Diane came up with that one, and I…

Sarah: Well done, Diane! CrushZone –

Elissa: I know; she did a – CrushZone is, like, amazing.

Sarah: I can’t believe that that wasn’t already used by an actual, like, boy band.

Elissa: I hope, I hope someone does, does –

Sarah: Right?

Elissa: – in the future. I hope we can see a CrushZone, ‘cause that would be amazing. And, and so, so, so, like, it’s this, she’s already in this relationship when she sees Cal again –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: And, and it’s, like, it’s on a little rocky, you know, it’s a rocky set-, setting when we, when we see them, because Ryan is, Ryan is your typical teen boy; the worst version of it, you know? Like, he’s your worst version of it.

Sarah: And his girlfriend was backup and always has to play backup to him. She cannot be the star –

Elissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – in her own right, because that is threatening to everything he understands about the world.

Elissa: Mm-hmm –

Sarah: Yep.

Elissa: – mm-hmm. And, and he’s just, yeah, he’s, he’s very, he’s someone who comes off as very confident but is incredibly insecure, and is also sort of struggling with being one of five guys in a –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: – in a band while his girlfriend is the, the headliner, is the star.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: And, you know, and I think that’s pretty, like, I feel like most teen girls have met that guy, have been charmed by that guy, have wanted to date that guy –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Elissa: – thought that’s good enough, and then you have someone who’s like, Oh, you know, there are men out there that, like, actually support your success and think you’re great and, you know, have, are not threatened by your talent.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: And I think that’s kind of, you know, it’s a little bit of a revelation for her. I think you get, you get used to – and, and she’s just being, you know, used to being told of all these things that Ryan is kind of echoing.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: Like he comments on her weight; he – you know, but everyone is commenting on her weight, so it’s not –

Sarah: That’s a normal!

Elissa: – weird or unusual, yeah.

Sarah: Yep.

Elissa: And so it’s this thing like you don’t know how messed up it is until someone else sort of shows you how messed up it is?

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: But yeah, so it’s, it’s this kind of tricky, tricky love triangle that they’re in because also they are all in the public eye, and now everybody knows that Ryan and Katee are together, and so you can’t just have a simple breakup.

Sarah: Nooo! Everybody has to take sides!

Elissa: And it’s such – everyone has to pick sides. It’s part of your dynamic, and then, and I think she knows, like, I can’t just jump to another guy in the band. Like, that’s not going to look good –

Sarah: No.

Elissa: – and, and – so it’s, it’s very, like, with the public eye stuff coming in, it gets very, very sticky for her, and she, she loves what she does. You know, it’s exhausting and it’s hard on her, but she loves performing, and she doesn’t want to lose that.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: So in certain ways, she is still putting her career first by staying with Ryan.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: And so, and I kind of, you know, I like that about her. I think –

Sarah: She’s got that pragmatism, right?

Elissa: She’s, she’s very pragmatic, and she’s very, like, she, in a certain way she does think about herself first?

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: In a way that, like, is a little damaging to her at that age, but –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – no one else is, no one else is thinking about her in that way, so –

Sarah: And –

Elissa: – she’s being a little protective.

Sarah: And she keeps getting these conflicting messages from everyone around her: You are so important –

Elissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – you are talented; you are the headliner; you are it. You are not thin enough; you are not working hard enough; you’re not quite enough. And so there’s this constant cycle of being the headliner and then being constantly told, But you’re still not good enough.

Elissa: Right. Yeah, you’re not good enough, and, like, you know, even the thing that got you here in the first place, like your voice and your dancing ability, like, we’re, we’re going to, we’re going to autotune your voice; we’re going to, you’re going to lip sync live shows –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – and stuff like that, and it’s, so it’s like they’re take, they’re slowly taking away the things that she really loved about this job –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – and, and it’s, you know, I think the further and further away it gets from that, the harder it is to maintain, like, excitement about it, so yeah.

She was a real, I mean, she was a super fun character to write, ‘cause I love writing really confident, bordering on arrogant women. Like, I just think –

Sarah: They’re fascinating.

Elissa: – we don’t see enough of them and –

Sarah: Nooo.

Elissa: – I love them, and I don’t want to punish them?

Sarah: Mm-mm!

Elissa: I want them to have their happy endings, you know, and I want, like, I kind of, the, the way I think about my stories and writing is like, it’s a little bit of the Star Trek: The Next Generation mindset, which is just so nerdy, but I feel like a lot of sci-fi and fantasy, it’s like they show us how terrible the future is going to be? We are all fucked; like, this is just awful. And you look at Star Trek: The Next Generation and it’s like, But what if we weren’t…? What if we all figured out a way to get along; had healthy, strong relationships; and loved each other and went and traveled the universe looking for new life? Like, that’s kind of, like, so that’s the way I approach writing romance, where I’m like it is that element of wish fulfillment, but it’s like I feel like we are capable of getting to a point where, you know, with, with both of my books it’s like that, and now they’re going to therapy on their own, that, you know, they’re dealing with their shit by themselves –

Sarah: Yes.

Elissa: – that women are confident and able to have, like, have a career; have a, like, dedicated, devoted partner –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – who doesn’t feel threatened by them, you know. It’s like all of these things are possible.

Sarah: Yeah!

Elissa: Let’s, let’s make it happen; like, let’s, let’s aim for that future, basically.

Sarah: And at the foundation of your characters, the, the women, like, they know what they’re good at! Like, this is my thing –

Elissa: Yes.

Sarah: – and I’m really good at this thing, and I don’t need to pretend –

Elissa: Yeah!

Sarah: – like I’m not. I know that I am. Let’s move on from this whole, like, I have to be fake humble and Oh, really, you really like me thing. Like, no! I’m really good at this. Please get out of my way.

Elissa: Yeah, yeah! I mean, I think it’s like, that, that was so much fun to write for Kathleen, because I think we see that in male characters all the time –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: – but, you know, we – and, and, like, I just, I really just wanted this character to be like, the thing we’re not, we’re not really questioning her skill set.

Sarah: No.

Elissa: You know, we’re sort of questioning like, Is she up for the challenge at this point in her life because of what’s happened, but we never, I don’t think there’s a moment where you’re like, She can’t pull it off.

Sarah: No, not at all.

Elissa: Like, as far as talent-wise. Like, you’re like, You might get in your own way –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – and mess things up, but, like, you have the talent to be on Broadway; you have the talent to, to make it.

Sarah: Yes.

Elissa: And she knows it, and she is, also works really hard to get there. You know, it’s not like she’s just like, I’m talented! She’s like, I’m talented, but I also know that I have to practice and work and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – dedicate myself to this, and this is my priority; this is what’s important to me.

Sarah: Yeah. It’s like the fact that Celine Dion, even at the height of her career, still had voice lessons and still had a vocal coach and still did exercises and still did lessons to sing better, even though she was, at the time, arguably the biggest singer in the world.

Elissa: Yeah, and she’s Celine Dion. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, exactly! She’s Celine Dion!

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: And it’s so interesting to me, I think, that one of the things that happens in the book – and I’m trying to avoid spoilers; it’s kind of in the cover copy – Katee, Kathleen, ends up on Broadway!

Elissa: I can’t speak to being a child actor on Broadway; I think –

Sarah: Right.

Elissa: – that’s much more complicated and, and more difficult, but I think the amount of work and effort it takes –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – to do eight shows a week –

Sarah: Oh my God!

Elissa: – is like, you know, it’s like you really, I mean, you are sacrificing a lot. You better love what you’re doing. You’re in front of a live audience –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – every single night. It’s a very immediate kind of like response –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – to what you’re doing. You know, and it’s such, also, Broadway’s, is a much smaller community.

Sarah: Yes.

Elissa: It’s a community that is not as financially successful as pop and, like, mainstream music, so I think the community is more protective of itself, and they want –

Sarah: Yes.

Elissa: – you know, they want people to succeed; you want shows to succeed. Everyone knows each other.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: So it is, you know, that, that community, I think, is helpful. I mean, it’s also interesting ‘cause I think both, like, pop stars for, female pop stars in general and Broadway, it’s a very similar audience, you know? It’s a lot of young women –

Sarah: Yeah, yeah.

Elissa: – who are watching these things, and it’s like the thing I think you, you get from it is like all of this emotion, and it’s so raw and pure, and it’s so exciting, and you’re surrounded by other people like you, and as a society we really don’t value that as a –

Sarah: Nooo.

Elissa: – barometer of any kind of success –

Sarah: Nooo.

Elissa: – which of course is totally ridiculous. I think with female pop stars it’s like they’re always looking for a reason to be like they’re, it’s a fluke.

Sarah: Yeah. This is a very fragile fame, and it can be taken away from you very quickly.

Elissa: Exactly. Whereas, like, with men it’s like, Oh no, we’re, we are going to give them a chance, no matter what. Like, you can’t tell us that they’re done.

Sarah: No.

Elissa: We’re going to keep giving them a chance. Whereas, like, with women and, and, and, you know, artists with largely female audiences it’s like, it’s like, Are you sure? Are, are you really sure that that’s what you like? I, I feel like the, society feels more comfortable with, with young female fans of boy bands?

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Elissa: Than they are of, like, young female fans of female singers.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: You know, it’s like they create, they create this sort of like over-sexualized young woman –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – and then they’re like, She’s a terrible role model!

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Elissa: Like, you literally created her! Like, you –

Sarah: Right?!

Elissa: – you, you created her. You are the one, like, zooming in on her boobs and her ass –

Sarah: Like –

Elissa: – like, on national television.

Sarah: There’s like a whole team involved, yeah.

Elissa: Yeah! Exactly! It’s ridiculous.

Sarah: So when you were researching this, this book –

Elissa: [Laughs] Uh-huh.

Sarah: – what were some of the things that you read or watched? Like, what elements play into this? ‘Cause obviously there’s Britney and Justin, but what other –

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – what other research did you, did you happily do, and what, what are some things that surprised you?

Elissa: Yeah!

Sarah: I’m so sorry that you had to watch all this fun pop culture and read all these magazines.

Elissa: I know; it was terrible.

Sarah: That just sucks.

Elissa: It’s terrible. I mean, you know, the, the Britney documentaries, like I’ve mentioned before, and the Jessica Simpson memoir and Jennette McCurdy’s memoir.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: Those were all super, super healthy in, in just sort of seeing behind the scenes at a pop star world, ‘cause I just don’t really know that much about it?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Elissa: I come from a theater background. So I used to work in theater, and I did theater in college; I did theater outside, like, when I graduated; so the behind-the-scenes stuff is from experience?

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: And I just, like, that’s like my favorite part of the theater world is the behind-the-scenes, the backstage stuff.

Sarah: Oh!

Elissa: It’s just such, it’s so much fun –

Sarah: It’s so fun!

Elissa: – and the community and the, like, collaboration. So thrilling –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – and I really wanted to sort of just remember what it was like, to, to have those moments and to, to be a part of a, of a, a theater production, ‘cause it’s just, it’s so much fun.

Sarah: It’s so ephemeral. Like, it only exists –

Elissa: Yes.

Sarah: – in the moment that it’s happening. You can’t recreate it.

Elissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Even if you watch a tape of it, it’s not the same as being in it –

Elissa: Not the same.

Sarah: – or being there to watch it. The theater and, and music and things that are performed really only exist when they are happening –

Elissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – and it’s a very unique energy.

Elissa: You feel so in the moment when it’s happening, and the talent that’s just right in front of you –

Sarah: Yep.

Elissa: – that’s sharing the same space as you –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – and the, and the energy of the audience and the crowd, it’s just, it’s great. It’s, like, there’s, there is really nothing like it.

Sarah: Do you have favorite musicals? Like, if there was a production you’d be like, I don’t care how much it is; I’m getting tickets?

Elissa: Into the Woods, always.

Sarah: Ohhh!

Elissa: I always will try to go see Into the Woods. Yeah.

Sarah: Oh, good one!

Elissa: That is, like, it’s one of my favorite, favorite – I mean, it’s, it’s also one of the first shows I remember watching, ‘cause I watched the PBS version of it when I was a kid.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: I think it’s one of the first shows I saw live, and it’s just been a very, you know –

Sarah: And it’s magic! It’s magical!

Elissa: It’s magic! It’s magic, and it perfect, you know, ‘cause it’s, like, funny but also dark and, you know, and, and I love fairy tales, so it’s just –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: – all of it is connected.

Sarah: So what books are you reading that you would like to tell people about?

Elissa: Okay, so, you guys, there are so many great books coming out in June in particular.

Sarah: Oh, June’s bonkers.

Elissa: June is bonkers! June is bonkers, so I’m going to try to guide you, but, I mean, pretty much anything, any romance you pick up in June is going to be amazing; there’s so many great books out there. But I really, really love, these are three books I blurbed –

Sarah: Okay!

Elissa: – and I am so excited for people to read.

Ava Wilder has another book coming out called Will They or Won’t They, which is also a, like, celebrity romance, and it’s like two, two people who are on a show together who, like, haven’t spoken in a really long time, and there was, like, definitely sexual tension, and it’s, ah, it’s delicious. It’s so angry?

Sarah: Oooh!

Elissa: And sexy and good, and she, like, it’s, it’s, if you loved her first book you are going to go bonkers over this one. It’s so good.

And then, sort of on the sweeter side of things, Matthew Norman wrote a book called Charm City Rocks, which is kind of like – ah! What is the John Cusack movie –

Sarah: Say Anything?

Elissa: Oh, High Fidelity.

Sarah: High Fidelity.

Elissa: It’s High Fidelity, like, meets, I don’t know, like, where the, the woman is a former rock star? And he, he, like, works for a record store, and he’s like a big, he’s like a childhood fan of hers? It is, it is very sweet, really funny. It’s written in a really interesting way. Highly recommend. It just, it feels very new and very fresh.

And then, this is a book I think everyone, everyone, everyone should be reading, which is Rachel Lynn Solomon’s Business or Pleasure?

Sarah: Ohhh.

Elissa: It is so good!

Sarah: Really!

Elissa: And it is, it is like the sexiest book about consent and communication in – like, it’s, it’s just so, it’s so hot and fun and well written, and, like, Rachel Lynn Solomon’s an amazing writer to begin with –

Sarah: Right.

Elissa: – but, like, this is just, like, you know, when you see people leveling up?

Sarah: Yeah.

Elissa: Like, this is, you’re just like, Holy shit. Like, you are…doing something really special with this book, so –

Sarah: I love when that happens!

Elissa: – those, I – go get those books, guys! They’re so good; everyone’s going to be talking about them!

Sarah: Thank you! My gosh!

So where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Elissa: I wish to be found.

Sarah: Yes.

Elissa: Well, I am on Instagram, and that’s pretty much it. And it’s just –

Sarah: I can’t imagine why you’re not anywhere else!

Elissa: I mean, you know? It’s, it’s a bit of a shock – a bit of a shock! – but that’s the way it is.

Sarah: Fabulous!

Elissa: That’s my life right now. Yes! It’s just @elissa_sussman at, at, at Instagram. I, I’m endeavoring to put more pictures of my pets online, because right now it’s just promo, promo, promo, but I promise I will, I will put some pictures of cute dogs and a very, very cute cat.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of the episode. I cannot tell you how much I love talking about pop culture and how we look back on things and rethink how we talked about people twenty-plus years ago.

Thank you so much to Elissa Sussman. I will have links to her books and all of the other books we discussed in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, but I bet you knew that.

I am curious: do you have a favorite musical? Do you have a favorite pop star? I would love to hear both. I am not as much of a musical person, but I would love to know what pop star posters might have been on your wall when you had your own room and decorated it with posters from magazines. You can find me at smartbitchestrashybooks.com; you can comment on the podcast entry; you can talk to me on Twitter @SmartBitches, at Instagram @smartbitches, and on Facebook at TrashyBooks, ‘cause they wouldn’t let me use the word Bitches – can you believe that? But I would love to know the answer to these questions: what’s your favorite musical? What’s your favorite pop star? Was your favorite pop star in your favorite musical? That would be pretty cool.

I always end each episode with a terrible joke, and this week’s joke comes from the podcast Patreon Discord from Divine Kitty Cat. Thank you so much for this joke.

Why was the doughnut at the dentist?

Why was the doughnut at the dentist?

To get a filling!

[Laughs] All right, so now I’ve got another question, though: what’s your, what’s your favorite doughnut? I absolutely love the doughnut at Dunkin’ Donuts that is a powdered sugar donut filled with what is essentially icing. It’s either vanilla cream or chocolate cream; I prefer the vanilla cream. I’m basically eating icing encased in a doughnut. So I’m curious: what’s your favorite, and, you know, commiserate with me. Is the icing-filled doughnut the best? Yes, yes, it is.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

Now I want doughnuts. [Me too! – gk]

[end of music]