Smart Podcast, Trashy Books, March 27, 2026

[intro]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there. Welcome to episode number 711 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, Amanda is with me, and we are back in the time machine. We’re going back to July 2000 for real, and we’re going to look at the ads and features of Romantic Times magazine. There are so many things to talk about, and if you like visuals there will be pictures in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 711, but I also have a video of the two of us with lots of overlay of the images we’re talking about if you would like to watch this podcast. It is on YouTube, and there should be a link in the file that you are listening to right now.

This one’s a little spicy, y’all. At about forty-five minutes in [45:00ish], we have an extended discussion of books that have, shall we say, backdoor action in romances, and then at forty-nine [49:00] we have a discussion of death and vague references to decomposition. Like I said, it’s a bit spicy. We’ve got dead bodies; we’ve got anal sex; this episode is a banger.

Now, I was given permission to quote garlicknitter – [Hi! That’s me! – gk] – because we were corresponding after I sent all the files. Do you remember two weeks ago there was a book where the, the heroine was described as “witchiness”? Garlicknitter says:

>> You know, I think “witchiness” means bitchiness. Pretty much the same way “multicultural” means Black. Now, I like a good euphemism in some cases – not as much as I like, you know, actual cussing – but I feel like these are…inelegant.

That is perfect word, yes. Those are inelegant. Extremely. So yes, thank you, garlicknitter. I agree.

I will have so many links to show you some of the things that we’re talking about, including Virginia Henley’s Geocities website, which I’m still delighted to have found.

And I have a compliment this week!

To GT Guest: You know how sometimes when the seasons are changing it’s cold in the shade but it’s like blissfully warm and comfortable in the sun? You are the human personification of walking out of a shadow into warm sunlight, because that is how you make the people around you feel: warm and safe and totally topped up with vitamin D.

If you would like a compliment of your very own or you’d like to support this show, please have a look at our Patreon at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Our Patreon community is one of the most lovely groups of humans I’ve ever encountered. We have a lovely Discord where we would love to welcome you, you get full PDF scans of all of the issues of RT, you get bonus episodes, and you get to help make sure that there are no dynamic ads before or after the show when there’s new episodes, because with listener support I turned them all off to avoid ads for ICE and right-wing propaganda. Our Patreon community is wonderful, and we would love to have you join! Patreon.com/SmartBitches.

We have a sponsor for this week’s episode! Support for this episode comes from Savage Bonds, book two in the Shadowmist Pack series by E. V. Mitchell. If you are look for a body-positive, slow-burn romance with very spicy scenes, knotting, an emotional support glory hole, and shared psychic orgasms – I know you’re listening now – listen up:

A gritty paranormal shifter romance, Savage Bonds follows Lithia, the first female beta of the Shadowmist Pack, after she is betrayed and imprisoned in a silver-lined torture facility. Her only lifeline is the voice from the next cell: Kier, a nomad who has been held in isolation for three years. His sanity has been eroded after years of psychic assault, but when he connects with Lithia through a small hole in their shared prison wall, he finds an ally and a reason to endure. Together they must navigate a brutal escape through a burning wilderness to the safety of her pack, and as the pack prepares to dismantle the organization that imprisoned them, Lithia and Kier must decide if they are brave enough to claim a future built on more than just shared trauma.

While Savage Bonds is the second in the Shadowmist Pack series, it can be read as a near standalone. One reviewer on Goodreads says:

>> I enjoyed this book even more than the first in the series. Lithia is my favorite. She is such a baddie, and I love her for it. The worldbuilding in this one is awesome too. If you like werewolf romance, this series is for you.

And I, I think you need to know, I, I think you need to know about the dedication from author E. V. Mitchell, which made me laugh:

>> To the readers who saw a hole in a prison wall and immediately thought, Yeah, I’d fist that: you brave, horny disasters, you trauma-bonded, violence-inclined little gremlins, this book is for you.

[Laughs] Savage Bonds and the Shadowmist Pack series by E. V. Mitchell are available now in Kindle Unlimited and in print on the author’s website or in your local library! Woohoo! Audiobooks are coming soon. You can find more information in the show notes. Thank you very much to E. V. Mitchell for supporting this episode, and congratulations on your new book.

All right, are you ready? The time travel machine is warmed up; I turned on the heated seats. We have snacks; we have beverages; we’re going all the way back to 2000! Let’s do this: on with the podcast.

[music]

Sarah: We are back! It’s ads and features time! We’re going to go back to July 2000, the real July 2000, and we’re going to look at the ads and features.

Amanda: We sure are.

Sarah: There are many things to talk about, but let’s start with the cover. We mentioned it a little bit in the reviews episode. This cover’s beautiful. This is a really pretty cover.

Amanda: It is! I really like this one. I think probably some of the pre-, like the prettiest cover that we’ve – I think this is probably the best one that we’ve seen.

Sarah: I think this is gorgeous, and if I was going to be marketing a romance novel magazine, this is kinda what I would think it would look like, you know? Like, sometimes they put the author on the cover, which is fine because this was also, for its time, a sort of Romance authors are our celebrities kind of thing, ‘cause, you know, like let’s go tour their houses and who has a matched set of Louis Vuitton luggage and, you know, two, two blue Mercedes convertibles or whatever. Like, there’s a sort of element of wealth and celebrity and status, and I think part of that comes from Kathryn Falk herself, because that’s how, that’s her aesthetic; that was kind of her brand? But if I was going to start a romance novel magazine, this is kind of what I would want on the cover. Like, this makes me go, Oooh!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s very pretty. I will have to try to figure out who the cover artist on this is or was? But, I mean, even the detail on the right-hand side of all of those flowers: like, this is very beautiful.

Amanda: Yeah. It’s a little, it’s very dreamy.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s, it’s like, who’s the guy who painted all those medieval, like, courtship paintings where everyone seems to be glowing? I’m sure somebody will know, and they’re screaming it right now. I’ll, I’ll figure it out later.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: But I, I love this cover. I wish they all looked like this. I think this is gorgeous. And I know that, you know, the book probably had, the person or the author or the publisher had to purchase the cover to talk about their book. Like, this was probably a purchased positioning, but Ah! These were good choices. I wish they made choices more like this. Also, the wreath-crown thing she got on her head? You could, you could put that on a cover right now and people would be like, Oh yeah, I want to buy that.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s very, dare I say, rrromantasy.

Amanda: It could, it could – [laughs] – it could –

Sarah: A medieval masterpiece!

Amanda: – be confused for that, for sure. Put the sword –

Sarah: I would –

Amanda: – and the flower crown, and there, there you go.

Sarah: Yeah! And the chain mail sort of cowl he’s got going on. I would like to ask a historical costume epis-, expert if this is truly medieval costuming, but, you know, maybe it’s like romance medieval where, you know, people didn’t have things like scurvy and missing teeth.

Amanda: So apparently scurvy’s coming back!

Sarah: Yeah! ‘Cause people aren’t eating enough vegetables and fruits and stuff. Oh my.

Amanda: Yeah, we talked about it over lunch break yesterday – [laughs] – about how scurvy’s coming back, and I’m like, The pirate disease? They’re like, Yeah, the pirate disease.

Sarah: [Laughs] Pirate disease.

On page 2, on the inside cover we have a full-page ad for Cassie Edwards, and this is truly fascinating because they routinely give her books two stars, maybe three. They do not like her books, they don’t say great things about them, but holy cow –

Amanda: She has a two-star in this one!

Sarah: Yeah! She – for this book! But she has a full-page, inside the cover, full-color ad for Savage Devotion, and –

Amanda: Hey, her money, her money still spends. It’s still green.

Sarah: Her money still spends. And we’ve got John DeSalvo with some hair and a redheaded model. She’s got romance novel red hair, which you know is, like, not very natural. At the top of this ad – this is very hard to read, ‘cause the font choice is terrible – in –

>> To order your favorite Leisure and Love Spell romances call our special toll-free number 1-800-481-9191 from 10 a.m. to 9 p.m. Eastern, Monday through Friday.

Whose job was it to answer the order phone?

Amanda: Yeah, it’s like, who’s manning that line?

Sarah: 10 to 9 p.m.! I kind of am tempted to call it, but then I would be, like, on the phone with somebody, and that would just make me anxious. I’m sure it –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – is not Leisure and Love Spell.

But also, look at his head? Is there a feather? It’s, so there’s a feather in his hair, and it is pointing down along his jugular vein out over his shoulder, but there’s no, there’s no, like, headdress, there’s no band. Is it just glued in his head, or did he grow a feather?

Amanda: So this gives me AI art vibes, even though I know it’s not AI art, where, like –

Sarah: ‘Cause this feather makes no sense, yes.

Amanda: Yeah, and it just, like, blends into something else? And you can’t, like, see the origin necessarily? [Laughs]

Sarah: You heard it here first: Cassie Edwards’ 2000 book had an AI cover. (No, it didn’t. This was painted by a person.)

Amanda: Oh my God, don’t do that to me!

[Laughter]

Sarah: This is painted by a person. Also, this was from the Dorch, the Dorchester, which has sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

Where did this feather come from? Did he grow it? Is it glued? Is there, like –

Amanda: Maybe his hair is –

Sarah: – you know those little –

Amanda: – slowly turning into feathers.

Sarah: Oh my!

If you’re curious about the plot – Cassie Edwards is the winner of the Romantic Times Lifetime Achievement Award for best Indian series – oh boy.

>> Longing for a simpler, sweeter life, Janice Edwards boards the steamer Hope, but when the boat is shipwrecked she finds herself in the arms of a handsome Skokomish Indian – from all she’s heard a savage –

Ouch!

>> – to be feared. Yet in his gray eyes she sees tender caring, in his strong arms she discovers untold passion, and in his wild heart she will find Savage Devotion.

Yep!

Amanda: Oh boy.

Sarah: Never change, Cassie Edwards. Well, I mean, you can’t: you’re, you’ve gone on to the great reward. May you rest.

Page 3. Did, did you see this headline?

Amanda: [Wait for it…] What?

Sarah: Read this out loud. This is a Throw the Whole Man Away, right?

Amanda: Okay, this is so interesting.  So the, the ad is:

>> She had a gift for saving lives. He had the power to steal her heart.

>> Caitlin Taylor is about to discover that even the most brilliant cardiac surgeon can’t mend her own broken heart.

So I don’t watch reality TV much anymore, but I was on Threads this morning, and there’s a clip coming –

Sarah: Which is, which is reality TV now.

Amanda: Yeah. There’s a clip from –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – Love Is Blind, and supposedly this couple – I think Jessica and Chris is what I’m – Jessica is an infectious disease doctor, beautiful, and then her, like, fiancé from the Love Is Blind show, there’s a clip of him saying that, like, Oh, he’s used to dating women who do CrossFit and Pilates every day? And that she doesn’t work out enough? And this man is 5’2″, telling this gorgeous infectious disease doctor that she is not working out enough and he’s used to pulling women who exercise daily at CrossFit and Pilates.

Sarah: Whole Man Disposal Service, yes, the entire man. Huh?!

Amanda: I was aghast. I don’t watch this show, but I saw these clips and I’m like, Are you kidding me? Anyway, this just reminded me of –

Sarah: Wow.

Amanda: – that. [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, what is even the point of this man? She had a gift for saving lives and he had the power to steal her heart. Well, then the, then the blurb is like, her heart’s broken. I don’t think this person needs any men interfering in her life? She’s busy.

Amanda: Yeah. She’s got shit to do.

Sarah: Like, fuck that guy! My, my note in the document is No! Fuck that guy.

On page 6 – I, I do want to mention that on page 5 in the table of contents, there’s a picture of Julie Garwood, saying, Will, will Julie Garwood break the hearts of historical fans? And I’m like, I bet this is when she started writing romantic suspense, because that’s how RT would frame this decision, which is not –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – really great for the author, y’all.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So page 6, we have Flavia Knightsbridge, but it’s not very gossipy. It’s more like, Let’s report on fun shit authors are doing. Like –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – Eileen Dreyer and Elizabeth Grayson learned about Civil War-era wet plate photography, which is actually pretty cool. Let’s be real, that’s pretty neat. But down at the bottom – there’s a link involved here, I will link to in the show notes.

>> They’re cousins, identical cousins. Patty Duke, move over! A new set of equally talented cousins is ready to step center stage with two new romance novels. Julianne MacLean, author of Prairie Bride, and Michelle McMaster, author of The Marriage Bargain are cousins.

They started writing at the same time; they attended conference, conferences together; they critiqued each other’s work; they shared information; and they both sold within weeks of each other. That’s a very happy ending, ‘cause it doesn’t always work out that way. Julianne claims it’s a coincidence both books will be released in August.

Now, I put a link to Julianne MacLean in the, in the sidebar, and if you look – so Julianne MacLean is still writing, and I will link to her Books page. If you keep scrolling, you can watch – she’s written so many books, you can watch cover trends and genre trends change. Like, you scroll through, and it’s like, Oh, okay these are women’s fiction; these could be mysteries; whatever. And then you keep scrolling and you get really muscle-y guy in a kilt without a head. So this is, like, she wrote during the headless hero period – [laughs] – when all the heroes had their heads cut off. And as you keep scrolling and you go back, you will see, Oh, these are self-published: heroine in the front, and then we have opulent dresses. If you keep scrolling, you will see just a whole history of what romances look like, because her career has clearly lasted. And even her international editions, there’s some Old Skool clinch covers. Like, you can just see how cover trends have changed, looking at her backlist alone. It is really cool. Also, good on her for having a long-ass career! Fuck yeah!

Amanda: Yeah, it’s, I’m looking at it now. I’m really surprised by all the international ones. There’s, like, German; there’s French. Like, good for her.

Sarah: And a lot of Old Skool clinch covers, especially the really fluffy sort of Pino ones, those would get reused on other books in other countries, so I bet if you looked up – I am so sorry, Alanna; I’m going to say this so bad – Räuber der Herzen? I’m sorry again, Alanna. That cover, that clinch, that is probably used on another book, and if I reverse image search, I bet that it is on another book. And that also means Raider of Hearts. But yeah, this is –

Amanda: Hm!

Sarah: – this is really cool. Her whole, her whole, her whole backlist is just a, an illustration of how cover trends have changed, especially in, in self-publishing. I think it’s so cool.

On page 7. It’s Harvey, Amanda! It’s Harvey!

Amanda: He looks so happy to be here.

Sarah: He is just stoked. Harvey won Mr. Romance and was just drafted by the Canadian Football League’s Montreal Alouettes. I don’t even know if there’s still a Montreal Alouettes. I hope Canadian listeners will be telling us, because he was drafted, and it’s just a whole This guy is so hot; look at how hot he is. He’s a cover model and a football player. They are marketing this guy so hard. It is so interesting to see past Mr. Romances show up in the magazine? They get to be conference and magazine celebrities too.

Amanda: But also, like, I always wonder, where are they now? What are they doing?

Sarah: Oh yeah. My favorite part here of this article: He is drafted. He played a football player in a movie. He is going to go to Canada and play football.

>> As if that weren’t enough, Harvey has just finished shooting two more romance cover, covers for eBook publisher LTD books and a Prince Polo chocolate bar commercial where he played a role that was meant for him: Tarzan.

So I’m guessing that this image of him in a loincloth with a woman in a bikini is from that chocolate bar ad.

Amanda: I also found an archive of his, like, stats? So he’s 6’4″ –

Sarah: Oh my god!

Amanda: – and he played for Montreal for three years and then –

Sarah: Good for him! Hope he didn’t get injured.

Amanda: – and then moved to the British Columbia Lions in 2003, and then, looks like he became a free agent after that, and then nothing happened.

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Amanda: I think he does have an Instagram?

Sarah: Good for him. I love –

Amanda: ‘Cause he –

Sarah: – John DeSalvo’s Instagram; I won’t lie.

Amanda: He does have Instagram. I mean, he lists former pro athlete; there’s a Canadian flag.

Sarah: Hell yeah. Hey, Canada!

Amanda: But yeah, not as compelling as John DeSalvo’s Instagram.

Sarah: No. John DeSalvo – okay, look, modeling is actually a skill that some people have and some people don’t. It is really hard to constantly be moving your body and give a different look and a different attitude and a different emotion just by moving all your parts around in minuscule amounts. So I’m not, I’m not discounting that this is a hard job, but he looks so happy. I also love the commercial that he was in dressed as Tarzan? This, she is – Lady, Lady Barrow is not going to miss a trick in marketing herself. Next sentence –

Amanda: No.

Sarah: >> The commercial is airing in Europe only, so you’ll have to join one of Lady Barrow tours to catch a glimpse of him in his loincloth!

[Laughs]

Amanda: Oh my god.

Sarah: And then the next sentence, because, you know, you want Harlequin to be onside for your big-ass conference:

>> Harvey was recently contacted by Canadian-based Harlequin to do the, his first cover for them, which will no doubt begin a longstanding relationship with the largest publisher of romance novels.

It’s almost like Kathryn is sending them a signal: You must keep hiring this guy for your covers because I discovered him and you, I’m going to arrange, like, I am orchestrating this through, like, my powers of manifestation and probably also nagging.

In the letters to the readers, Kathryn lets everyone know that her father passed away. And Kathryn was his primary caregiver. He was at the conference; I believe that his emotional support rooster was also at the conference. She took very attentive care of her father, and I’m very sorry that she went through that, because being a caregiver to somebody with Alzheimer’s is so hard.

On page 11 – all right, so here’s a thing that I’m going to keep pointing out, and I’m really, really sorry that I’m going to do this to you, but I, I really need to do this.

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: All of the author photos in this issue, so many of them, like a large percentage of them have hands under the chin, on the side of the face. I’m going to keep calling out all the hands, and you’re just going to be like, What the fuck.

Amanda: ‘Kay.

Sarah: So on page 11, top right corner, Carol Card Otten, also known as C. J. Card, is one of the authors that’s going to be featured at Georgia Romance Authors Moonlight and Magnolias Conference which I don’t remember if I’ve attended, but that was a big one. Her author photo is a three-quarter profile with her, like, her index finger and her fingers all together under her chin like she’s off to the side thinking about something. It is, it is such a weird old, old-style author photo. Like, she looks like –

Amanda: She’s thinking about her books!

Sarah: She looks like The Thinker! Like, she is posed like The Thinker for her author photo. And meanwhile, all of the author photos that are around her are people looking at the camera and smiling, including Jennifer LaBrecque, who looks like she just scolded you?

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, she’s got her forehead towards you and her chin is away?

Amanda: She’s like, Uh-uh-uh!

Sarah: Uh-uh-uh! That’s, that is totally a nuh-uh! head, head tilt. So this is the first of hands that I will be calling out.

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: Hands, Hands Number One.
Amanda: ‘Cause I saw in the, in the notes section, and it just says Hands, and I’m –

Sarah: Yep! That’s –

Amanda: – What does this mean?

Sarah: Well, get ready.

Amanda: Hands.

Sarah: Hands.

And then Sandra Chastain? Her book is called Sweet Tea and Jesus Shoes.

Amanda: Did my grandma write this?

Sarah: Okay, I put a link in the sidebar –

Amanda: Oh boy.

Sarah: That, that says, it links to Chastain, and it’s going to open up the Goodreads listing. So this is an anthology, and I just want you to read all of the titles, because they are –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – each one is more incredible than the next, and I want to see, I want to see how far we get –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – before we start crying again?

Amanda: First off, “The Jesus Shoes.”

Sarah: All right, so the anthology is called Sweet Tea and Jesus Shoes, and she wrote –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – “The Jesus Shoes.” Okay, good to know.

Amanda: She wrote “The Jesus Shoes.” “No More Mickey Mouse”, “Nola’s Ashes”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: “Grandma Tells a Tale”

Sarah: ‘Kay.

Amanda: “Keeper of the Stick”

Sarah: What are they doing with that stick? What’s that about? Is that the –

Amanda: Keeping it, apparently. [Laughs]

Sarah:  Are they, are they, is that like You go pick up a switch and I’m going to beat you with it? Like, ooh!

Amanda: I don’t know! “Fingerprints”?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: “A Little Squirrely”

Sarah: So far, so good!

Amanda: “Up Jumps the Devil” – maybe –

Sarah: Uh-oh!

Amanda: – maybe in his Jesus shoes?

Sarah: I would hope that the Jesus shoes have really good impact cushioning for, for the devil’s joints. Yes.

Amanda: [Laughs] They’re, they’re orthotics.

Sarah: They’re Hokas. They’re Ho-, they’re Hokas. They’re big Hokas.

Amanda: [Laughs] “Cookie, the One-Eyed Horse”, “From Whence We Come”, “Bigdaddy’s Outhouse”

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: That’s the one.

[Prolonged laughter]

Sarah: Why is that the title of your book?!

Amanda: “Bigdaddy’s Outhouse”!

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: “Flying –“

Sarah: Also written by –

Amanda: “- on Fried Wings”

Sarah: Also, “Bigdaddy’s Outhouse” was also written by Sandra Chastain, so we’ve got Jesus shoes and Bigdaddy’s outhouse. So what is –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – what is the next one again?

Amanda: “Flying on Fried Wings”, “The Reunion”, “Grandpapa’s Garden”, “Uncle Clete’s Bell”

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: And then we bookend it with “Sweet Tea”!

Sarah: [Laughs] “Cookie, the One-eyed Horse”!

Amanda: …horse.

Sarah: [Still laughing] “Uncle Clete’s Bell” and “Bigdaddy’s Outhouse”. Oh wow!

Amanda: “Bigdaddy’s Outhouse”.

Sarah: What an extraordinary list of titles. I – okay.

Amanda: Oh boy.

Sarah: So on page 13, we have Virginia Henley, who loves to school you about things you are getting wrong. She is the cover story in this month’s issue, ‘cause she’s got the cover, and this is all about her book, which is set, it’s part of a Plantagenet series. I probably said that wrong, but this is part of her whole Plantagenet trilogy. At the bottom:

>> To contact Virginia and learn more about her titles, visit her website, http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/3504.

And did I find that in the Internet Archive? Yes, I did. Take a look at this! It’s in, the link is in the, it’s an archive link, so it’ll take a minute to load? I just need you to describe Virginia Henley’s Geocities site, because it’s just perfect.

Amanda: Lots of purple.

Sarah: [Laughs] It’s so purple!

Amanda: Lots of purple. So the header is her name, Virginia Henley, but the opening made by the lower portion of the G in Virginia is actually a big circle with a photo of Virginia in that circle wearing a masquerade mask of some sort.

Sarah: Hell yeah!

Amanda: And then there’s like a clip art of a pink flower. All the text is in, I believe, purple Comic Sans.

Sarah: It’s Comics Sans! [Laughs]

Amanda: Yeah! Purple Comic Sans. Lots, lots of purple. I can’t overstate that enough. Yeah.

Sarah: And because the bottom of the G in Virginia is so big, it stops looking like a G and it really looks like the name is Miroinia.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s viroinia or Minoria, but it looks like the, her, her name is Viroinia.

Amanda: I don’t love it.

Sarah: It’s incredible.

Amanda: The copyright is 2001, so that’s what we’re –

Sarah: Yeah, and her newsletter –

Amanda: – working with.

Sarah: – was last updated March 8th, 2002? But there’s also two other websites, which I had a hard time getting the web archive to pull up. There was one called The Mansion, which was authorsmansion.com/Henley? I think that that was like a page of all romance authors, and they all live in a mansion, ‘cause all romance authors are wealthy, of course. And then her other website is hometown.aol.com/virhenley/myhomepage/index.html. This is all written out. All of this is written out. All of it. I love –

Amanda: Her –

Sarah: – an old Geocities site.

Amanda: Her last newsletter says,

>> I will be attending the Romantic Times Convention in Orlando, Florida, which fortunately for me is only a ninety-minute drive from my home in St. Petersburg.

Sarah: Don’t be telling people where you live, girl. Don’t do that!

Amanda: And then at the bottom, she’s like, oh,

>> Anyone who didn’t get a chance to talk with me at this event can email me at VIRHENLEY@aol.com.

Sarah: Yes!

Amanda: So, giving out her AOL, letting people know where she lives. Early internet.

Sarah: I believe that Nora, I believe Nora Roberts still uses an AOL address, or she did for a long time.

Amanda: Good for her.

Sarah: Good for her.

So on page 22, we have a pretty fun article! I thought this was really clever. It’s all about unusual occupations in romance.

Amanda: Especially for this issue, ‘cause there, going through the reviews, there are a lot of unusual occupations in this one.

Sarah: Yeah, we had a magician –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – cardiac surgeon –

Amanda: Oilman.

Sarah: – we had, we had virile oilmen. Yeah.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So the article is by Gerry Benninger, and it talks about, you know, why unusual occupations are so enjoyable, and why they’re so common, and why you see these people doing neat jobs. And then they quote three authors, and I really thought that this was just about heroines? Like, I really thought this was a heroine-focused iss-, like, article, but it’s actually both. They talk about the heroines more. Then they have a whole chart of unusual occupations, and it’s the heroes and the heroines. I will make sure that I share this list with everybody, because it is so funny.

There is one quote from this article that absolutely dropped my eyebrows to my nose.

>> As a nation, our work ethic has always involved the search for daily meaning as well as the necessity for daily bread.

I, I don’t know what that means.

>> Work represents a big part of the way we experience the world, ourselves, and each other.

Okay, first of all, what?

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Daily meaning and daily bread? Like, were, were you just making word salad to fill a – what does that even mean? But I decided that what we needed to do is choose character occupations from this list that we think are the greatest. Sort of like tag yourself. So Amanda –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – what character job from this rec list did you pick?

Amanda: Well, I have a question because some –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – some of these list two. Like, one says president and mechanic. Does that mean the president is a mechanic, or are those two separate characters?

Sarah: Golden Man by Evelyn Rogers. I’m going to look it up. You keep going.

Amanda: Okay. I – there’s a lot of good ones in here.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: But I think the one that I find to be most interesting is under the Historical category. So they, they have Historical and they have Contemporary. And this one is The Golden Tulip by Rosalind Laker, and it’s an antiques dealer in Rembrandt’s era. So that sounds interesting.

Sarah: That’s cool.

Amanda: There’s, there’s also one, The Orchid Hunter, where the person’s a botanist , and I think this is reviewed in the magazine, ‘cause I think I almost chose The Orchid Hunter.

Sarah: I cannot tell – okay. He is the president. She is the mechanic. She’s actually –

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: – a car, she’s actually the car shop counter person, according to this review –

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: – and she’s the mother to a sixteen-year-old baseball pitcher who hates the government, and she ends up getting – okay, this is, this is just like, this isn’t, this is, this is, this is a national security issue.

>> Steven Marshall is a good-looking, rich, thirty, single, and the President of the United States.

This review is from Debby. She gives it two stars. Thank you, Debby.

>> Regina –

Amanda: Thirty-year-old president, President of the United States?

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and the golden, golden man is him. Like, he is tall and blonde and muscular and, like, if you look – here I’ll drop the link for you – if you look on Goodreads –

Amanda: …boy.

Sarah: – this has one of those covers where you’re like, That’s not a real person. So his, he’s, he’s got, he’s got gold, gold blonde hair, and it is in a very ‘90s sort of Jonathan Taylor Thomas floppy to the side look?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: He’s very gold. So in Debby’s review she says:

>> When Ginnie goes astray on a White House tour looking for a bathroom, she ends up at Steve’s feet in the Oval Office by accident.

No.

>> That starts a weird relationship between them, secretive because of his position, and uncomfortable because she’s very blue collar and not used to dealing with politicians and people who want to exert their power. Their passion, when caught on camera, forces a hasty marriage, which starts out poorly. Finally, Ginnie and Steve admit their love and come into their own in their marriage as and first – come into their own in their marriage and as First Lady.

>> Somewhat improbable situations, kind of a fun book, somewhat graphic, coarse sex scenes, parody of President Clinton in some ways.

Amanda: Oh no.

Sarah: What the fuck is this? So basically, she works at the counter at, at a, at a body shop, and so she’s not actually a mechanic, and he’s the president.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Also, there’s like, there’s just, there’s just, like, the Secret Service was really not doing their job that day. Okay.

Amanda: Also, I love how in the jobs listing, you know, they’ve got like horse whisperer, superhero. And then there’s one –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – that just says circus. And –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – it reminds me of like in Barbie where it’s like, you know, Ken’s like, My job is beach? It’s like, My job is circus.

Sarah: No, Amanda, your job is circus.

Amanda: My job is circus. Okay, so I picked antiques dealer in Rembrandt’s era. Which one would you pick?

Sarah: I am, I am very charmed by the idea of 1873 magician, because it’s a very specific kind of magician, but I don’t know how that is specific. I’m also amused by First Lady, Susan Elizabeth Phillips. Occupation –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – First Lady.

I picked, in Contemporary, The Right Moves by Jan Hudson: heroine drives a wrecker truck.

Amanda: Hell yeah.

Sarah: Hell yeah! You know that she will just –

Amanda: Hell yeah, brother.

Sarah: – if you are, if you are the wrong man, she will just run you down. Heroine drives a wrecker truck.

Amanda: But –

Sarah: Hell yes!

Amanda: Speaking of Jan Hudson, so –

Sarah: Yes?

Amanda: – during the reviews episode you mentioned, Is there a book that you would want to read? And I said, Not from the reviews, but there’s a mention of a book that is in the ads and features that I was interested in. And as part of this column, they talk to three authors about unconventional jobs, and Jan Hudson is one of them. And her quote is:

>> I adore people who are a bit different – well, a whole lot different. Unusual occupations are natural setups for humor or adventure stories and are inherently fascinating. Think of that unforgettable parrot hunter in the movie Romancing the Stone or the 18th-century female bodyguard in Arnette Lamb’s novel Beguiled, which I recommend.

So I was like, Tell me more about Beguiled.

Sarah: And this 18th-century female bodyguard. Hell yeah!

Amanda: Yeah! So I looked it up, and it’s part of a series. It’s the fourth book in a series, and it came out in 1996.

Sarah: Ooh!

Amanda: And essentially, the heroine’s sister is getting married and someone, I guess, tries to shoot an arrow during the wedding ceremony, and the woman jumps in front of her sister to take the arrow for her? And so, like, now she’s, like, famous for being a bodyguard for, like, taking this arrow, and the hero, like, tends to her wounds.

Sarah: She took, did she take an arrow to the knee? Did she take an arrow to the knee?

Amanda: It doesn’t specify where she took the arrow. So –

Sarah: I’m just going to pretend that’s where it was.

Amanda: But yeah, I, I added it to my Goodreads TBR! And the hero is described as a man of science and mystery. So bodyguard heroine, man of science hero. It looks like someone has tagged it Georgian era. I don’t know! Maybe I’ll, I’ll find a little copy somewhere and, and pick it up.

Sarah: I love this plan; I’m thrilled to be a part of it. I think it’s great!

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: I want to read a book –

Amanda: So that –

Sarah: – about an 18th-century female bodyguard; that’s dope!

Amanda: So that one definitely caught me. So we’ll see.

Sarah: It sure did.

Amanda: This recommended reading list with all of the jobs, though, I think is really fun.

Sarah: Oh, this is super fun. I thought this was such a clever idea for a feature? This could have even been longer. They could have done one with hero and heroine occupations. Like, Nora Roberts is a queen of interesting jobs, especially for her heroines. Like, she’s got the Donovan Legacy, where the heroine is psychic. The first thing I thought of when I saw this article was like, Oh, the glassblower in, in Born in Fire, who’s like – if you want to read a, a – what’s the word? – proto version, like an early version of Eve and Roarke, read Born in Fire. That’s proto-Roarke in that book for sure. And a little bit of Eve, although she’s blowing glass instead of solving crimes.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: She was the queen of neat jobs.

Amanda: Yeah –

Sarah: One of them here is –

Amanda: – I love an interesting job. Not like I run a bakery and photo studio for little dogs neat job.

Sarah: You don’t run a cupcake bakery that specializes only in banana nut cupcakes?

Amanda: Yeah. I want, like, very niche stuff like, what’s another one? Paleontologist? Yeah. Let’s get, let’s get into it. Geologist –

Sarah: Musicologist?

Amanda: – and a psychic? Yeah.

Sarah: Western woman judge.

Amanda: Rat catcher? Sure. Let’s catch some rats. Like –

Sarah: Wait, which one’s the rat catcher?

Amanda: The Proposition by Judith Ivory.

Sarah: Fuck yeah, rat catcher.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I missed that one. There’s also Through the Looking Glass by Joyce McGill: miniature furniture designer.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: And The Nightingale’s Song by Jo-Ann Power: medieval female poet.

Amanda: Yeah. But –

Sarah: Heroine makes fireworks? Female road engineer! Like, this is a really cool list; like, I would have a lot of fun with this.

Amanda: But a testament to what you were saying about Nora Roberts, she shows up, what, three times on this list?

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: Yeah, three times!

Sarah: It is such a cool feature. I, I wish they would have done more with it, because it’s just really fun. And that’s, honestly, that’s one of my favorite parts of romance, when someone does have a really interesting job or they’re in a really interesting environment. Like, I love fish out of water stories; I love, and you know I love competence porn. So I love a competent person in a, in an interesting profession. Like, I think this is so dope; this is a lot of what I love in romance. This is one of the things –

Amanda: Well –

Sarah: – I adore about it.

Amanda: I just chatted with KJ Charles to do a profile.

Sarah: That’s so cool. Isn’t she, isn’t she a great interview? She’s amazing.

Amanda: Oh my god, so great. And her next book – I think it’s How to Fake It in Society? – one of the heroes is a colorist? So there’s a lot of stuff in the book about how color paints and stuff were used in, during that time period; of course, like how some of the materials are poisonous or just downright disgusting. So that was really interesting to learn about the research that she did for, like, that particular, like, job during the time period. Yeah, more –

Sarah: That’s very cool.

Amanda: – cool jobs, please!

Sarah: I also want to point out that Christmas Fantasy by Janelle Denison is a contemporary where the hero is a stripper, male stripper. And I have a feature up right now for Smart Bitches After Dark where I bought a bunch of old romances and I profiled the covers and the cover copy, and I’m having people in After Dark vote on what am I going to read and recap for y’all? The two, like, the two winners last time I checked the survey results were Lightning That Lingers by Sharon, is it Sharon Curtis? Sharon and Tom Curtis under Laura London. In that book – that’s one of the earliest ones – the hero works at, like, cougar town. He’s a dancer at the, you know, the cougar town, or something with cougar in it [Cougar Club].

Amanda: Yeah, sure!

Sarah: And she’s a librarian, so I’m like, Ooh, that’s interesting.

The other one that is taking the lead I believe is, is it George & the Virgin? Basically, it’s a time travel where this woman and this village is beset by dra-, a dragon that keeps wanting, like, I guess the dragon wants to crunch on some virgins? St. George the Dragonslayer is a professional wrestler and gets taken back in time, and she’s like, You have silver pants and lace up boots. You are going to fight this dragon for me, and you’re St. George the Dragonslayer. So a professional wrestler goes back in time to fight a dragon?

Amanda: Oh my God!

Sarah: [Laughs] Oh my God, romance, how much do I love you right now?

Amanda: How have we not heard of this ever before?

Sarah: I own a copy. I am so pleased that this is an object that is in my home. Like, oh my stars.

Amanda: All right!

Sarah: And, and this is my last year, this, this year coming up is going to be my last year going to Denton for the Jazz Fest, ‘cause Alex will be a, a senior? And so I’m going to have to make like a really epic trip to Books & More, and I’m going to have to, like, bring some shipping boxes, because that, that store is just, it’s like a museum. It’s so incredible. I love it.

I have to, I will probably end up reading and recapping both, because how can I, how can I not, right?

Amanda: Yeah, no, you have to.

Sarah: How can I not?

But it’s interesting how a few of these are, you know, psychic, geologist, stripper. Every now and again, we get sex workers. Nora’s is circus. Honest Illusions: circus. [Laughs]

On page 25 of the PDF: hands.

Amanda: More hands.

Sarah: So we have a, we have a photo of Laura Kinsale, and this was her author photo for decades. She has a –

Amanda: Oh my God.

Sarah: – really nice bangs and a bob, and she’s wearing a tam o’shanter hat on her head, and her hand is under –

Amanda: I never knew that’s the name. [Laughs]

Sarah: I’m going to double check that I am right. Hang on I need both hands. Tam O – oh, nope, tam o’shanter: a tam o’shanter is – well, it’s a poem, and I believe that it is also a hat. If I am wrong about that – nope, here it is. It has its own Wikipedia page.

>> A tam o’shanter or a tammie is a traditional Scottish bonnet.

So I believe that she is wearing a tam o’shanter. Yep, seems to be. And her hand is, like, her index finger is along the side of her jaw, and she’s resting her hand in her chin. And then if you scroll down –

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: – we have Leigh Riker, who is also resting her hand on her chin, but her hand is curled back, so she’s, like, grasping something in her hand and then resting her head on it. There are so many hands. Hands, hands, hands.

Amanda: So many hands.

Sarah: So many hands.

On page 27, you –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – wished to talk about something. Tell me everything.

Amanda: So on 27, this is like a profile of some local book club reading group, and this is based out of Bonham, Texas. It’s the Bonham Romance Readers’ Book Club. And so it’s just like a little profile and a cute little photo of some of the members, and they have some recommendations for contemporaries and historicals, paranormal, and series. But one thing that caught me is the last paragraph, and everything old is new again, something that Sarah and I always say.

Sarah: Everything comes back around.

Amanda: >> These ladies aren’t shy about sharing their pet peeves, either. One of their –

Sarah: My favorite kind of book group.

Amanda: >> One of their chief complaints is that the, is the many amnesia, baby, and cowboy plots. Overall, they’d also love to see more originality in storylines and stronger heroines. Finally, they disapprove of sappy heroines or silly covers that don’t accurately portray the book’s plot.

[Laughs]

>> Yet this book club firmly believes in never judging a book, book’s contents by its cover.

Sarah: That paragraph could be posted on Threads right now, and people would be like, Yes, me too!

Amanda: Yeah. So –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – this has been a recurring problem for –

Sarah: Since forever, yep.

Amanda: – since forever.

Sarah: And boy-oh-boy, we may not have a lot of amnesia, but we got babies and cowboys and sappy hero-, so many sappy heroines lately; I’m getting real tired of it. And silly covers that don’t accurately portray the book’s plot. I’m still not over The Meet-Poop, where the entire floor that they’re walking on outside is pink? Pink, Pepto-Bismol pink? I’m still confused by this cover.

Amanda: It, it just reminds me of the Ghostbusters, was it Ghostbusters II where you have –

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: – Vigo and the pink, the pink anger slime that’s in the New York sewers.

Sarah: Yes!

Amanda: Love it. And then you have the –

Sarah: That does remind me of the, the Statue of Liberty –

Amanda: – the dancing –

Sarah: – slime.

Amanda: Also, it’s snowing!

Sarah: Ooh, mazel tov!

Amanda: Sorry, I just looked, I just looked out the window. It’s coming down.

Sarah: Woohoo!

On page 28, I don’t know if you know this. Do you know about Tori Carrington’s book that I reviewed many, many years ago? So in –

Amanda: No!

Sarah: – in RT, there was a feature – I don’t think it exists, existed in the later years of the magazine – The Rising Stars of Romance. You had to pay to book a spot in The Rising Stars of Romance, but it wasn’t obvious that it was a paid spot. It does say at the top, For more information about how new authors can join the Rising Stars, contact Judy or Terri Brisbin. And you had to pay for a little spot, but it wasn’t so obvious. It looked like, Oh, these are the Rising Stars of Romance, and it would give you a little, sort of like a little feature box with you, your picture, and your book.

So Tori Carrington, which I did not know, is the writing combination of Lori and Tony Karayianni, and they have a new book called For Her Eyes Only. Tori Carrington, I am, I am shocked at this moment to learn that this is a man and a woman, although I probably shouldn’t be, because long, long ago, I believe Andrew Schaeffer reviewed for Kirkus a book by Tori Carrington, and he told me about it, and he’s like, I think it was a Blaze, and he said, There’s anal in a new Blaze. And I said, I beg your pardon?

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: He said, yeah, there’s anal. There’s anal in this new Blaze. And I’m like, No, there’s not. He’s like, Yeah, there’s, there’s anal! I wrote about it. And I was like, Ohhh! Okay! And this was around the period of time where an editor with a straight face on a panel said, Anal is the new oral. And I – okay, side note: I have a theory that one of the reasons why erotic romance and BDSM romance and all of that took off so hard was because it was a new sex. You know what I mean? It was like a new sex.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: We weren’t having that sex before. People didn’t know about it, so it was like, ooh, new sex. And I think that was what happened with a lot of anal in romances, too.

Tori Carrington’s book with anal sex, I’ve reviewed it, I will link to the review, but basically he is so hot and bothered for her that he, he’s playing piano in the night with great maudlin and sappy emotion, and she comes in, and he is so taken by, I guess, his own piano playing and whatever she’s doing, he bends her over the piano and without a single preparatory element visits her back door. He does not use lube. He doesn’t even go into the, into the kitchen to get some chicken broth. Not a thing. He’s just like, this is it, it’s happening now, and it is appalling! And I’m like, this was a man and a woman writing this!

Amanda: Okay, so Whomst Among Us has not had a wrong hole scare, and the speed at which you, like, crawl back up to the headboard to get away as fast as you can.

Sarah: [Squeaks]

Amanda: No, sir.

Sarah: Not even a thought as to preparation. And this made me think of Adib Khorram’s interview with Anne Helen Peterson on the Culture Study podcast that I listened to last year, where he was asked about the number of cishet women who write queer romance, and he very fairly said, I cannot speak because I, to that. I’m not a queer, I’m not, I’m a queer man; I’m not a cishet woman. But he said, I do read some of these books – and I quote:

>> – and I wonder if any of these people have ever seen a penis, because using spit as lube is not loving or considerate or kind for your partner. It is not okay. It is unacceptable. And I understand not putting all of the, you know, preparatory details in the book. …They weren’t in Heated Rivalry either, and Jacob Tierney was like, Wait, you want me to put, like, the douching part? Like, no, I’m not putting that in the show.

It’s so wild to me that there is so little acknowledgement of how easily you can get really fucking hurt and that spit is not lube and – I mean, unless you’re Tori Carrington, you get no lube at all. None. No lube for you! Incredible. That was a lot of talk about anal. Sorry, folks.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So on page 31, my comment is, This is absolutely bonkers. Did you see this? Okay. Would you please – this is where I start, I was laughing so hard, and this is so mean of me to laugh; I was laughing so hard that I cried. I just, I need you to read the paragraph about Dame Barbara Cartland and look at how hard Kathryn Falk is a main character – [laughs] – in Barbara Cartland’s death.

Amanda: This whole page in general is like, What? Is this?

Sarah: Oh, my – this is all incredibly weird, and the cover below it, we’re going to talk about that.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: Anyway.

Amanda: Okay. So at the top it says A Perfect Ending, and there’s a photo of Dame Barbara Cartland.

Sarah: May she rest.

Amanda: >> Dame Barbara Cartland, age ninety-eight, died at Camfield House in her sleep on May 21st, 2000. Three days later, according to her behest, she was carried down from her bedroom at noon and buried beneath the Queen Elizabeth-planted oak tree in her garden. Her favorite song, “I Believe” by Perry Como, was played at the graveside, and family and guests joined in singing. She had suffered a brief illness, but until a few months prior, she continued to dictate her favorite – or, she continued to dictate her romance novels at the astonishing rate of twenty a year.

>> Kathryn Falk is visiting Cam-, Camfield Place in June to pay a call on Dame Barbara’s son, Ian. She will also gather some leaves from the oak tree – another of Dame Barbara’s requests – to bring back for romance fans in America. If you would like one for a memento, please send a self-addressed stamped envelope to Kathryn Falk at RT. A tribute to honor Dame Cartland’s long and remarkable career will be featured in next month’s issue.

How many leaves is she taking?

Sarah: [Laughs] I have so many questions!

Amanda: Is she just sweeping them into, like, a, a suitcase?

Sarah: [Still laughing] Big old garbage bag! She’s got one of those paper, tall paper bags that you have to put landscaping in; she just gets on the plane with!

Amanda: How do you declare that at customs?

Sarah: Do you have any plants? Well, yes!

Amanda: Got a bag of leaves.

Sarah: I have Dame Barbara Cartland’s leaves! [Laughs more] Oh my god! And then imagine, you know, you’ve got to go over and you’ve got to – these leaves get brittle, right? So if you write in –

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: – and you’re like, I want a leaf and then Kathryn sends you this leaf, are you just going to get like a bunch of brown dust in an envelope? Like, what is…

Amanda: Leaf dust.

Sarah: – is this?! Also –

Amanda: How are these preserved? Does, if anyone is alive and listening, do you have a preserved leaf from –

Sarah: Oh my gosh! If you have a leaf, please, I want to know about it.

I also just want to say that – and we mentioned this earlier about how authors who do research love to tell you all about it? So in my Hanukkah romance, the hero is a mortician, because I was like, Go big or go home! He’s a mortician. Fine, that’s what I’m doing. So I learned a lot about mortuary science and hereditary businesses and how fucked up the mortuary industry is. And it was a plot point because Jews do not embalm, and neither do Muslims, but he and his Muslim, the hero’s classmates in mortuary school, which he had to go to ‘cause he was inheriting a family business, they had to study all these techniques that they won’t use because they don’t do that.

I just want to point out, as someone who researched a lot of mortuary science, she died and three days later was carried down from her bedroom. What? How? How? What? Oh my god, three days? Just, what? Please correct me if I’m wrong, but that seems like a very bad idea.

Amanda: So TRIGGER WARNING for this description: There’s a doc- –

Sarah: This is a bit much. We already just went off on anal. [Laughs]

Amanda: Yeah. This is a – there’s a documentary, I think it’s on Amazon or maybe it’s on HBO, but it’s about this cult, called Love Has Won? And the woman who’s the leader of this cult wound up passing away. I can’t remember from what, but they were doing a lot of colloidal silver and she turned blue? But she died, and they didn’t notify anyone, and they just kind of kept Weekend at Bernie-ing her around to, like, campsites, to the home, stuff like that. And, like, there’s body cam footage of, like, a wellness visit from the police, and they, like, arrive at the home, and she’s, like, covered in, like, Christmas lights. But yeah, like, they did not bury her. They thought she was going to come back to life and just kept bringing her dead body from place to place for, for quite some time. It’s a crazy documentary for people who love cults and documentaries. Highly recommend it.

Sarah: Wow! Ew, no!

Amanda: But yeah.

Sarah: Oh, honey! Oh! Oh-ho! So, like, I –

Amanda: Anyway.

Sarah: – would like to, I would like to believe that everyone involved in, in Barbara Cartland’s wishes at the end of her life after she died, I’m glad that they all respected her wishes, but three days later, she was carried down from her bedroom and buried? Three days? What, what, what? Oh my – hmm! Many things are happening in those three days that you –

Amanda: Did she specify the three days? Like –

Sarah: I- it says three days later, according to her behest, so I don’t know. Maybe it was like –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – maybe it was like, Hey, in three days, if I don’t come back from the dead you can put me under that tree.

Amanda: But it –

Sarah: That was wild to me, particularly the part where people are going to get leaves in the mail. [Laughs]

Amanda: Crazy.

Sarah: And then right underneath that is In the Spotlight, Barbara B.K. Reeves’ groundbreaking romance, My Buffalo Soldier. I just need you to see the cover. I linked to the best copy I could find of it, and I will put this in the show notes. Look at this hat. Just look; this is –

Amanda: This man does not want to be there.

Sarah: He does not want to be there, and I do not believe for one single solitary second that that hat was present on his head when that photo –

Amanda: No.

Sarah: – was taken.

Amanda; No, certainly not.

Sarah: It is pasted on his head. It is like, it is like bad paper dolls, this hat.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s like, it’s like if you have paper dolls that are six inches and ten inches and you put the ten-inch hat on the four-inch doll, that’s what this is.

Amanda: She’s like, Don’t you love the hat? Looking at his face for any sign of happiness.

Sarah: Yeah. What do you think of this hat? And the woman seems, like, very intense? Anyway.

Amanda: She has, she has like a parasol.

Sarah: Oh, she does, doesn’t she? Yeah, she has a parasol.

Amanda: Yeah. But she’s, like, dressed like a diner waitress is what it reminds me of. Like, the blur around her waist makes me feel like she’s wearing, like, an apron, like a waitress’s apron, and she’s got, like, a white, collared shirt on.

Sarah: Yeah, she does look like she’s a waitress. All right, this is a very confusing sentence, and I want to see if you can help me parse this.

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: >> Barbara BK Reeves’ groundbreaking romance, My Buffalo Soldier (published May 2000 by Genesis), which received four stars in our May issue was recommended to the national chairman of the Buffalo Soldiers Historical Committee by General Colin Powell’s staff.

Amanda: ‘Kay.

Sarah: So General Colin Powell’s staff recommended this book to the chairman of the Buffalo Soldiers Historical Committee.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: >> Mr. Philpot commended Ms. Reeves for her contribution in recognizing these men. He wrote a letter thanking her for helping extend and celebrate the history of the Buffalo Soldiers. It’s a compelling story of forbidden love between a woman widowed by the war and a courageous soldier of the Ninth Cavalry. Her novel is also a testament to the courage and honor of thousands of Buffalo Soldiers.

So someone in Colin Powell’s staff recommended this to the – am I reading this right? – the chairman of the Buffalo Soldiers Historical Committee.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So someone on General Colin Powell’s staff was reading this romance novel. I want to know –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – about the provenance of that recommendation. That’s wild.

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: That’s so cool! This cover is not cool, but that is cool.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: All right. Page 44. You may notice –

Amanda: More hands.

Sarah: My comment is hands.

Amanda: Hands.

Sarah: So as you dooble-dooble down to page 44, this was the best one. This, these hands are the best hands in this – these hands are the best ones, except for the ones that are coming up. This is – okay, in terms, in Olympic terms, I think these are the silver medalist in terms of hands in an author photo. I – how would you describe what this person is doing? This is Lynn Cotes’ author photo.

Amanda: Yeah. It looks like she’s holding something in her hands; it’s, like, nested in her hands; but she’s probably not. And they’re, like, at her cheek. Her head is, like, tilted, and they’re, like, resting, she’s resting her cheek on her nested hands –

Sarah: Okay.

Amanda: – and smiling. [Laughs]

Sarah: There is so much space between her palms. It’s almost like if you –

Amanda: Yes!

Sarah: – make a heart shape, if you make a heart shape –

Amanda: What does she have in there?

Sarah: – with your whole hand and then you close the outsides of your hands together, there’s, like, a whole area. I think, ‘cause I have decided after looking at all of these photos of hands that I’ve decided to, like, narrate what’s happening in them, because they just keep getting wilder? She’s holding a gerbil?

Amanda: I thought maybe like a little snack. An egg. A hard-boiled egg.

Sarah: She’s holding a little, like, I think she’s cuddling a gerbil. I think there’s a gerbil in there. That’s what’s happening here. What was the stage direction for this photo? It’s so weird.

Amanda: Maybe there wasn’t any; maybe she’s like, Look, I got it. I’ve been practicing this move. I got it.

Sarah: Right? It’s very wild.

So on page 48, my question is: this is the cover of Bertrice Small’s A Memory of Love, which I read about in the reviews issue. This is the, the woman who goes and goes to the Crusades with her husband, and he can’t fight, so he, she takes over and then gets given to somebody and learns, learns all the sexytimes in the Middle East, ‘cause, you know, that was a trope. Is he jaundiced? He’s green! This man is green.

Amanda: There is a shade to him, for sure, but I, my eye is drawn more towards her blue eyeshadow.

Sarah: Oh yeah, baby! Look at that! Ye olde blue eye shadowy! [Laughs]

Amanda: How do you get that color?

Sarah: His, his sleeve is too big. His hand look like, it looks like it is decaying. He looks, he’s green and grey. This is not a well man. Also, his doublet is way too big. And she –

Amanda: He’s like the same shade as the stones behind him.

Sarah: He is the same shade as the, as the stones behind them. He – is he ill? And then she has –

Amanda: He might be.

Sarah: – she has the most glorious blonde hair that is just whoof! in a big old sweep. You know that if they live together, they are finding her hair everywhere.

Amanda: Oh, everywhere.

Sarah: It is on everywhere; it is on everything. Everything has got –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: There’s so much hair.

Amanda: I’ve told Brian he can never murder me, because he will never be able to get my hair, like, clean, fully clean it up. This, this is everywhere in our home. In the car –

Sarah: Oh my goodness. He’s really, he’s really green! Like, something’s very wrong.

Amanda: Yeah. If you look at the, ‘cause the edges of the image are this very, like, rich, emerald-y, forest-y green? If you –

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: – move your eyes to that and then his face, the green really jumps out at you.

Sarah: [Gasps] I think it’s that background that’s part of what’s making him look so –

Amanda: Green.

Sarah: – flo-, floral. He’s very flora.

Amanda: Green in the gills.

Sarah: He’s very, this guy is green, and her eye shadow matches parts of his face?

Amanda: Are we getting a Kermit and Miss Piggy vibe now?

Sarah: [Gasps!] You may be right!

Amanda: Did I crack the code? [Laughs]

Sarah: I think you cracked the code! That woman’s holding a gerbil. and these two are Kermit and Miss Piggy. I completely, I accept this headcanon. Thank you!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Headcanon accepted. Ding!

On page 50, we’re getting an update on Genesis Press, which coincidentally was the subject of a previous issue.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: And this is five years later. They’re looking at Genesis Press’s Indigo line with Gwynne Forster, Beverly Clark, Donna Hill, and Rochelle Alers. And they’re talking about how great everything is going in Genesis. I don’t know if this was around the time that authors were starting to get mad that Genesis wasn’t paying them, but I believe shortly after this, the lawsuits happened.

Amanda: Oh boy.

Sarah: And then if you look at page 54, this is the greatest of the hands. This is hands. This is, this is the gold medalist picture author photo with hands.

Amanda: Why?!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: Why?

Sarah: Okay. I’m going to try to describe this –

Amanda: These are claws!

Sarah: – as if I was writing – claws, right? I’m going to just try to describe this as if I am writing alt text for the images, which, by the way, is one of the most fun parts of working on a romance novel website, because we’ve got to describe these images to people who are using screen readers –

Amanda: Oh boy.

Sarah: – and sometimes I’ll be like, Okay, folks, you’re not going to believe this shit, but I swear to God, I’m telling you the truth.

So this is a woman; her name’s Kristi Gold; she has a side part of some long, sort of wavy, curly, brown hair. She’s got, her eye makeup is amazing; her lipstick is great. This is a color photo. She’s got a little burgundy shirt and a black top. The color scheme is a burgundy background. It’s a good picture. Like, if you take the hands out of it, this is a very solid portrait, and it’s not tied to a specific time period. It’s not very glamour-shots-y, it’s not very Olin Mills, and then you get the hands. Okay.

So her right hand is curved like she’s holding onto a bar and she’s about to do a chin up, but it’s turned sideways. So you are seeing the outside edge, the pinky-side edge of her hand, and it’s curved, but it is not touching her face. It is in front of her face. And then her other hand is clawing at her wrist. Am I describing this right? Like, it’s –

Amanda: No, it’s –

Sarah: – she’s clawing at herself!

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: It, it’s very tense, and there’s nails, and you can sort of see, like, the hooking of the fingers around her wrist. It’s really weird.

Here is what I think is happening in this photo: only one of those hands is hers, and she is holding up a dismembered hand. Look at this hand that I found! See what I’ll do to you if you don’t buy my books? I’ll cut your hand off! Like, this, only one of those hands is hers.

Amanda: Yeah. The, the higher one does not look like hers.

Sarah: Yes, so she is holding up a dismembered hand in this photo. That is the only thing that I can think of that makes sense, because there’s, this pose is completely nonsensical. Like, it’s like, are you, does your wrist hurt?

Wait, I’m put my microphone down and try to do this. Hang on. So, like – put it. I don’t think I have enough bra for my microphone, but let’s find out. [Interesting sound effects] Okay. Okay. My, my microphone is now inside my bra; you’re all very welcome.

Okay, so her hand is like this, and her index finger is against her palm, her middle finger – no! Her index finger and her middle finger in the palm, her ring finger and her pinky finger are digging into – we are both doing this by the way –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – the video is going to be incredible. So –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – she is digging into her wrist –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – and yet her hand is not at her face. It’s in front of her face, so it’s like, See this hand that I found?

Amanda: Is she –

Sarah: Look at this hand that I found. Look at this hand. Do we need to take – listen, I need a new headshot; my headshot is more than ten years old. I might need a new headshot, and maybe this is what I need to do. Maybe we should both have heads, head shots like this.

Amanda: I’ve never taken a headshot at all, so why not get a glamour shot?

Sarah: Hands –

Amanda: A hand glamour shot.

Sarah: – touching hands. What is this – this is, so this is the gold medal of hands in this issue.

Amanda: Gold medal hands.

Sarah: Just gold medal hands.

Amanda: Look, and if you guys want to recreate this yourself, feel free –

Sarah: We want to see it.

Amanda: …tag us.

Sarah: Yeah. I’m going to feel really bad by sharing these images, because I’m really not making fun of these people appearances. I am baffled by these poses as professional headshots. I don’t understand the, the, the, what is, why? Why, why is their hands touching your face and holding up a, you know, dismembered hand? Like, what’s happening here? This, this is not about their appearance.

Amanda: Maybe she wanted to show off her nails a little bit.

Sarah: And the hand that she found. Look at this hand I found!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Look it, look it…

Amanda: Look at this hand that I – [laughs]

Sarah: I’m not talking about their appearances. I am, physically, I’m only talking about the physical poses that they are in that makes no sense to me. I don’t understand. But yeah, what, what’s with the hands? Why is this a thing? I don’t understand. Wow.

On page 56, everything about this image is outstanding.

Amanda: Yeah, and I said that man is holding in a fart.

Sarah: He is one hundred percent pinching it hard. He’s either –

Amanda: Clenching those cheeks.

Sarah: – either he, he really is holding in a fart, or he really has to go. But he is very upright and tense. So this is Irish Rogue, The Irish Rogue by Judith E. French, and it is a gorgeous portrait of Mr. DeSalvo. We’ve got a mullet. And I think what’s interesting about this image is that he is ninety-nine percent clothed. His shirt is –

Amanda: Yeah, which is rare.

Sarah: Which is rare. His shirt is open and tucked in, but it is a very narrow V, and he’s wearing a red, sort of burgundy, cutaway jacket with embroidery, a high belt, and some trousers and some knee-high boots, and he’s standing in a very power pose. Like, he’s power posing, right?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: And his arms are by his sides, but, you know, he’s really jacked, so he can’t straighten his arms. His arms are curved, and his chest is like a fucking barrel, but also I think maybe he skipped leg day. And he looks very upright and tense, but this image is so interesting as a cover because it’s just him, he’s wearing all of his clothes, he’s looking right at the reader, and it’s actually a really good image.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I will definitely share this in the show notes; do not worry. I might have to try to find a picture of this, because look at that!

Amanda: Well, from one full-color ad to the next, I found one on page 62 for –

Sarah: Ohhh!

Amanda: – Mc-, McClairen’s Isle by Connie Brockway – or, sorry, the series McClairen’s Isle. It’s for The Ravishing One, Connie Brockway. And my comment was, This is so Vivien Leigh-coded.

Sarah: Hundred percent.

Amanda: Because there’s this woman with dark brown, black, curly hair; very sculpted eyebrows; red lips; a cute little, like, upturned nose. She has this royal blue off-the-shoulder dress on. She’s, like, on the floor leaning against a chair. But this just reminds me of Vivien Leigh Gone with the Wind so much, even though, like, the books are Scottish. This has nothing to do with – [laughs] – the Civil War or anything, but yeah. I, I thought this was very striking and beautiful. It’s a beautifully painted lady.

Sarah: It’s a gorgeous image, isn’t it? And it’s not quite an art style that we see a lot of in, in, in romance. Like the Irish Rogue is the romance cover art style that was basically an oil painting or digital painting to look like oil. This is a very different illustration style, and it’s very pretty. There’s so much –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – detail in her gown, too. Look at all that lace, embroidery on her big old puffy sleeves. You know Anne Shirley is jealous of those sleeves.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Those are big, puffy, fucking sleeves right there. But that’s a – then, you’re so right: that is totally Vivien Leigh-coded. I saw this and I thought, Oh, that kind of looks familiar. That’s Vivian Leigh-coded! You’re so right!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: On page 79, we answer the question, Is Julie Garwood going to break the hearts of her readers? If heartbreak is caused by romantic suspense, then yes, yes, she is. This is when Julie Garwood switched to thrillers, but I would point out that Catherine Coulter already did. The full-page ad for Julie Garwood’s Heartbreaker includes, And don’t miss these other Julie Garwood titles available in paperback, and its Ransom, Gentle Warrior, The Prize, and The Secret. Not even her four best!

>> Will Julie Garwood break your heart? She may if you’re a fan of the beloved author’s many heartwarming historical romances set in Regency or medieval England or clan-centric Scotland, for her new novel is a departure from the plaid-wearing ruffians and English ladies that frequently people her books.

I remember this very clearly, because, one, I was not really cognizant of genre? I was like, Oh, this, this author writes books I like; I’ll grab this book. And I grabbed a Catherine Coulter suspense, and I was like, What the fuck is this? [Laughs] I was like, Are they going to go back in time? Like, where’s the historical part? And it just never occurred to me – I was very young – never occurred to me that the same author might write in more than one genre. But what’s weird about this is at the time when a lot of the digital-first presses and the little, the little small digital presses were starting, you had authors that were writing for them that could pretty much write all genres, and they would all get published under that name. So you had one author who was doing contemporary erotica and futuristic and paranormal and erotic paranormal and science fiction and, and historical. You could be writing all of these, and it was no great shakes. But at this point, a big name author was really expected to stay in that genre. And I think for big name authors now, it’s still kind of a big deal to switch genres, don’t you think?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I mean, it’s kind of a big deal with some readers that Eloisa James’s upcoming book is in first person. It’s still a historical, but it’s first person. That’s a big switch.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: On page 117 is the conference agenda, which is really interesting when you look at these old Romantic, Romantic Times Booklovers Convention. They’ll have sessions about Writing for Today’s Western Romance Market or The Ultimate Heroes or time travels, and they had an e-publisher and editor panel. And the publishers were LTD, Dreams Unlimited, Zenmarc, Starlight Writers Publisher, and Hard Shell Word Factory. I don’t remember those. But on page 117 –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – this is really interesting to me because of how much we’ve learned about the history of the genre through basically recapping this magazine. This is 2000; this is twenty-six years ago.

>> On-Demand Publishing in Demand! A panel of on-demand publishers combined with retailers and distributors who support this cutting-edge method of publishing will enlighten all on the process.

It’s a two-hour session. This is still so firmly in the time when on-demand publishing was vanity publishing and publishing your own books was considered, like it was, it was very much looked down upon? That was starting to change, but a two-hour session about print on demand twenty-six years ago! The, RT was really ahead of the curve in really interesting ways, weren’t they?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I think that’s really cool.

On page 126, which is the back cover – so this was the issue in which Zebra launched Ballad Romances, which was a series from Kensington, it was spearheaded by the late Kate Duffy, in which each book was part of a series. So each book would be either part of a two-, four-, or six-volume series, and also standalone. So it was like mini-series, or what Harlequin would call a continuity, where different authors were all writing in a shared world, and there might be a larger plot that spans all of those books that had to be coordinated – my sympathies to the author.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: These covers, though. It is a mullet-palooza. It is mullets –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – and hair and ruffles, and the thing about these is that they’re all photographs? They aren’t treated with an art treatment; like, they aren’t made to look like a painting. They are photographs, and for some reason that does not work for me as a, as a reader. And I, I have said many times, the covers are not for me. I’m already inside; I know where all the silverware is; I’m in your house; it’s fine. The, the, the fact that there are photographs rather than an artistic rendering, they don’t have the same impact or allure. And I’m real, I’ve been working for, like, a long time to figure out why I don’t like photograph covers on historicals, but I don’t, and I don’t know why that is. Maybe it’s the fact that photography did not exist in that time period? Maybe my brain is being pedantic. I don’t know, but I don’t like it.

Amanda: I think for me, I don’t have as big of a problem, but I think unfortunately the layout of the covers does a disservice, ‘cause there is a giant white strip –

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: – on the side that says –

Sarah: There’s a bar.

Amanda: – A Zebra Ballad Romance, and I think I would like these better if –

Sarah: Was the whole thing?

Amanda: – we could see – yeah – the background to create more of a sense of place and rather than Here are just, like, two people removed from an environment wearing –

Sarah: You’re so right.

Amanda: – “period clothing,” I assume. Right? Like, I think having a full scene rather than just a pose would do a lot better and a lot more work. ‘Cause it would add some context to, like, what they’re wearing.

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: So that, that’s my thought.

Sarah: You are very, you are very right. This does have a kind of scrapbook-y look, because the coup-, the, the image of the couple is cut out so that part of each image, one of the people is bleeding onto that white column background, so it looks very scrapbook-y.

I, I still can’t figure out why photography on historicals doesn’t work for me. I, I, like, I’m mad that I can’t figure out why I don’t like this. Like, my job is to figure out how to articulate what I do and do not like, and I, I’m really struggling with this one; I’m sorry.

So that –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – is the end of the actual July 2000 issue. What did you think of this one?

Amanda: So I put a note. I feel like we talk about the features more in other issues, and the only feature that I think we really liked was the unconventional jobs one?

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: Because I feel as if the other features in this issue were mostly just, like, secret promo. It’s like the authors that they’re reviewing talk about something and then, like, include an excerpt of their book or plug –

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: – the book that is being reviewed –

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: – in the, in the issue that we have. So it feels less like a, an interesting topic to discuss and more like How can I shoehorn in my excerpt or my book mention or tie this to the release that’s mentioned in this issue? So I felt like the ads were the most interesting, because hands, but the features themselves were just mostly, like, thinly veiled promo stuff, which I feel like is a snooze fest.

Sarah: Yes. I, I would not be surprised if part of the money-making for this issue – ‘cause you’ll notice there’s not as many publisher ads as there are in later issues? I think authors were paying for those promo spots, and then they were writing an essay about something to do with their book and tying it in, so it was all purchased promo, but they all read the same, and they’re, they’re not engaging. Most of them are very boring. As I’ve said many times about the podcast, Hey, I wrote a book, is like a five-minute conversation? This was so much promo; you’re right. And it comes across as very monotonous, and it doesn’t make me want to read a book more or less than any other form of promo? I also think that it’s interesting how much of it is – so, for example, the, the cool jobs? That was about the books, right? Like, that was about the books. All of this promo is about the author.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: It was about making the author a known name, because that was part of the goal with these issues. These people were being built into, like, romance celebrities, and I think part of the promo was about that, and it was am-, it was as much about building the author. And I don’t say this to be unkind, but as a reader, I don’t care about the author’s journey? I care about the book that I bought. Like, for me, and I’ve said this before, the author and the book are miles apart, like miles and miles and miles apart. I don’t want to, I’m, I’m not interested in the, the author and the writing story; like, that doesn’t interest me. The book is what interests me. And so all of this author promo about, like, where they grew up and what they do, and I’m like, I don’t, this is not engaging me about your book at all. Like, these, these are not related topics.

Well, thank you for recapping this issue with me! I had such a good time reading this one. This one was really funny! [Laughs]

Amanda: This was so, this was a weirdo. This was so bizarre.

Sarah: I had so much fun just reading this and taking notes. Like, every other page I just start guffawing because it was just so silly. It was so silly.

Amanda: Yeah. The words these people write, I’m like, What the fuck is this?

Sarah: What, your virile oilmen?

Amanda: Virile oilmen.

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to you and to Amanda for traveling in the time machine with me. It is tremendous fun to hop in the machine and take a look at these.

And I don’t know if you saw: I put a post on – well, if you’re not in the Patreon, you didn’t see this, but if you are in the Patreon, I hope you saw: I now have – you can hear them – I have two vintage issues of Romantic Times magazine, which is kind of like a newspaper, from 1982. I have episode – episode – I have issue 6 and issue 7, and on the back is a whole advertisement for Superromance, so at some point I’m going to figure out how to safely scan these, and we will take a look at the earliest issues I have seen of Romantic Times.

Thank you to the Patreon community for making it possible for me to acquire issues when I come across them. And thank you to people who put them on eBay, because it’s great.

Now, I do not know if you are aware, but April is full of books! Like, oh my goodness, in all genres, and I have several interviews to share with you in the coming weeks, including Fortesa Latifi, author of Like, Follow, Subscribe: The Cost of a Childhood Online; Alisha Rai, whose new book is Enemies to Lovers; and Dr. Chanda Prescod-Weinstein, author of The Edge of Space-Time: Particles, Poetry, and the Cosmic Dream Boogie. So we’re going to talk about nonfiction online culture, we’re going to talk to romance authors, and then we’re going to talk about, you know, theoretical physics, because that’s something that I am totally qualified to talk to, talk about, right? I also have other interviews ready to share with you about The Bachelor and about a bookshop in Canada that sounds frigging incredible, and I want to go.

So because I have so many and they have so many books to talk about, we’re going to be back in the time machine for RT Rewind in May. And if you’d like, I will put up a poll so you can vote on which one we do.

As always, I end with a terrible joke. This one’s awful; that’s why I’m sharing it.

What is it called when a banana eats another banana?

Give up? What’s it called when a banana eats another banana?

Canna-banana-blism.

[Laughs] Canna-banana-blism! I just need you to know that I read it and I thought it was funny, but I had to practice saying it! There’s like a whole outtake of me going, Canna-ba-, cannabis, can-enema. Canna-banana-blism! That’s my new favorite word, by the way. Thank you to jfshay for posting this joke.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week! And in the words of my favorite retired podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening. You’re welcome for talking!

[end of music]