530. Writing the Book You Want to Read with Kyla Zhao

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Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 530 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and today my guest is Kyla Zhao. Her new debut novel The Fraud Squad is coming out in January, and Kyla’s book was inspired by her time working for high society magazines like Tatler and Vogue in Singapore. So we are going to talk about cultural differences, Trader Joe’s, and how her book became her antidote for doomscrolling in 2020.

I will have links to all the books we talk about, and I will have some links to how you can read magazines digitally through your library if that is a thing you would like to do.

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All right, let’s do this thing: on with my conversation with Kyla Zhao.

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Kyla Zhao: Hi, everyone! I’m Kyla. I am a native Singaporean, but I moved to California a few years ago for college, and now I work at a tech company in Silicon Valley in California. My debut novel The Fraud Squad comes out from Penguin Random House Berkley in January 2023, and it was inspired by my experience working at high society magazines in Singapore like Vogue, Harper’s Bazaar, and Tatler.

Sarah: Okay, that’s very cool. I imagine that the culture between California and Singapore is a little different from each other.

Kyla: Yes.

Sarah: [Laughs] What were some of the first things you noticed when you moved to California and were like, wow!? ‘Cause California is weird even to other parts of America; like, California is its own thing!

Kyla: Yeah! Are you based in California?

Sarah: No, I am based in Maryland; I’m outside of DC. But a good friend of mine moved to LA, and we talk a lot about how LA is so very different from the East Coast and how parts of California are their own, like, their own unique culture. So I imagine Singapore to California is a big ol’ thing.

Kyla: Yeah, that’s so true. I was actually just in LA for Memorial Day weekend, and LA’s also very different from the Bay Area where Silicon Valley is?

Sarah: Yes.

Kyla: And the first thing that struck me when I moved to California was how extroverted people were? I think –

Sarah: Yes! [Laughs] Americans are so extroverted!

Kyla: Yeah! I think Singapore is a bit more like New York, where everyone just kind of keeps to themselves and everyone’s really focused on getting to where they have to be, and if you’re in their way they’re, like, not afraid of making it known to you that there’s somewhere to be and that you’re in their way. And I come here, and I remember the first time I, I went to Trader Joe’s, and then the cashier struck up an entire conversation with me, and I was in that line for five minutes, and I heard all about his grandmother and his, and what he had for lunch the day before, and I was like, wait, why is this happening? Like, I just want to get my groceries! But now, like, I kind of appreciate it. I think people are super nice. In fact, the first summer after my freshman year of college I went back home; and I think I was just so influenced by the culture here that I started smiling at people on the subway and I started, like, saying hi; and people looked at me as though I was weird; and I was like, okay, I get it. So yeah.

Sarah: [Laughs] I also think that that’s an element of Trader Joe’s culture, ‘cause Trader Joe’s cashiers, they want to talk to you; they want to tell you their life story.

Kyla: Yeah, that, that’s weird. That’s what I heard from my American friends as well, but I think for sure just like across the board, on average, Americans tend to be a little bit more outgoing –

Sarah: Yes.

Kyla: – a little bit more willing to talk to strangers? So yeah, but one thing I’m still trying to, like, get a grasp of, even after four to five years, is when people ask you, like, hey, what’s up? Like, they actually want an answer? If they say, hey, what’s up? It’s just like an extended way of saying hey, and I don’t know if they want a response, so, like, I always feel really put on the spot when that happens, when that hap-

Sarah: [Laughs] My general response to, hey, what’s up? Is, nothing, what’s up with you?

Kyla: Okay.

Sarah: Just toss it right back.

Kyla: Yeah, so now, yeah, that’s what I do now, but with one of my friends was like, you know when I ask you, I actually want to hear, like, a legit response, right?

Sarah: Aw!

Kyla: I don’t want to just hear that you’re fine, and I was like, oh, okay, that wasn’t my experience with most people, but sure.

Sarah: That’s a good friend, though! Like, I’m honestly asking? I think a lot of the times the default is, how are you? I’m fine; how are you? It’s just part of the extended on ramp to a conversation?

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: But if your friend is like, no, I actually want to know, that’s a really good friend!

Kyla: That is, yeah.

Sarah: I agree with you; I have read a bunch of different conversations online about American culture and different cultures in different parts of the world, and Americans are generally very friendly and very extroverted. American culture –

Kyla: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – is a very extroverted and loud culture; Americans are very loud. And I know that one thing I found really interesting was that there are – so in some cultures, especially in some English, former English-speaking, former colonies that are English-speaking – that’s what I wanted to say –

Kyla: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – the theory is the tall poppy gets the cut: if you stand out too much you get cut back. But in America it’s like the squeaky wheel gets the grease: we are the ones who, like –

Kyla: Mmm!

Sarah: – you have to stand out; it’s okay to stand out. So there’s this really –

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: – interesting tension among different former colonies of the UK where some of us are like, we’re extra! It’s like a whole country of theater children, and then some of us are like, no, we do not stand out. We do not, we do not do that; we must all be the same. And it’s fascinating to watch the, the cultural differences show up in little areas, right?

Kyla: Yeah, for sure. Like, I studied psychology in college, and one of the sections was Cultural Psychology –

Sarah: Ooh!

Kyla: – and they saw that like for instance in Asia; like, people tended to prefer when the political leaders didn’t smile showing their teeth, so they prefer if, like, the presidents and stuff were smiling like close-lipped smiles, whereas in America people liked seeing, you know, Obama showing all his teeth, which is why –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kyla: – beaming out at people and just that level of, like, brightness to it, it’s pretty different.

Sarah: So congratulations on your book The Fraud Squad! Tell me everything! Like if you just want to start at chapter one, that’s fine; just, like, tell me everything about this book! This sounds so cool!

Kyla: Yeah, so the book is about, well, the book is set entirely in Singapore, and it features entirely Southeast Asian cast of characters, and I started – well, I think it came from like me wanting to see more of Asian representation books, and this actually happened because I started writing this the summer of 2020, so after my junior year of college, and that was during the pandemic, so it was like June 2020, and my family was back in Singapore, but I had to stay in California because my internship required it: I couldn’t work remotely from out of the country? And so I was living alone, and that was also when everyone was still social distancing, and so I wasn’t seeing any friends at all, and I was just like in this, like, tiny apartment in California, and I was like, wow, okay, so this is just kind of like lonely and depressing –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kyla: – and then, as I always do, I turned to books for comfort, but that was also a time when, like, anti-Asian racism was really rising across the United States. That was still back when, like, Trump was president, and there was just, like, a lot of anti-Asian rhetoric happening on social media –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kyla: – and I found myself doing doomscrolling a lot, and I also got frustrated that all of the books I was reading, ‘cause I like reading women’s fiction, I like reading chick lit, but a lot of the books in this genre that I loved reading, I just began to realize that they didn’t feature, like, Asian protagonists, and I was very homesick. I missed my family a lot. I wanted to see, like, you know, like Southeast Asian protagonists whom I could identify with and relate to, and I couldn’t really find it any of the books I was reading except maybe Crazy Rich Asians, and I’m sure these books do exist, but I just wasn’t, like, really learning about them. They weren’t coming my way, so to speak, and so I decided to write my own, and from the very beginning I knew I wanted it to be in Singapore. It was kind of like a way of just getting past my own homesickness and feeling connected to, like, the people back home, even though I was across the country at that time. And I pantsed this book, so –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kyla: – for people who don’t know what pantsed is, yeah, I think it means writing by the seat of your pants or in pants or something like that?

Sarah: Yep!

Kyla: So it basically meant that I had no outline. I didn’t really know what I was writing at that point. I just kind of came up with the story as I wrote, and –

Sarah: Right.

Kyla: – as a result the first draft was, like, extremely messy, full of plot holes. I really dug the grave myself, and I had to dig myself out of it. So the first draft took three months; I finished it right as my senior year started, and then I was writing, I was doing the revisions for most of senior year, and yeah.

Oh, I just realized that I never really said what my book was about. Okay, so my book is set in Singapore’s high society, but it’s not a high society book. It’s actually about a woman, a working-class woman from a very ordinary path, even low-income background? And her dream job is to work at a high society magazine, so think Vogue, Harper’s Bazaar, and so on, like the really glossy, stylish magazines you would see, and she realizes that, like, the best way to just, you know, get onto the radar of the people who work at a magazine is to be a socialite, impress them, and to make them think that she knows, that she can talk about high society because she’s a part of it, and so she enlists the help of two friends to help her infiltrate high society. And, yeah, like, shenanigans happen, and the whole time she’s just terrified of being exposed, especially because there is this gossip columnist who’s anonymous, and the gossip columnist is always on the prowl for dirt, and she’s just terrified of being found out.

Sarah: Ooh!

Kyla: Yeah! And I think I really like how this book ends. I, like, the end, the ending kind of just, like, came to me, but from the very get-go I knew I didn’t want to change it, and then, though, as I was, like, working on it and people were, like, some of my friends were reading it, everyone was like, oh, you should probably want to change this, because otherwise no, like, agent or editor will be interested, but I’m glad I stuck to it, and I’m glad that my publishing team’s opposite.

Sarah: Yeah, that sounds amazing!

Kyla: Thank you!

Sarah: So you were basically writing yourself the book you wanted to read.

Kyla: Yes, and I wanted it to be really fun, really glamorous; like, not really like what was happening in the world at that time.

Sarah: Yeah, and it, it’s, it’s always interesting to sort of have that fantasy of wealth and access and society. It’s, it’s all, sometimes it’s a very big comfort read to read about things like that.

Kyla: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. I think it’s something you can escape into because it is so different from most people’s lives that I think everyone kind of just wants like an inside peek into what it is like.

Sarah: Yeah, for sure.

Kyla: I think that’s why people are fascinated with shows like Inventing Anna or like Gossip Girl or like The Devil Wears Prada, because it is just so outrageous, but there’s always that, like, glimmer of truth to it that, yeah, these people are like, you know, maybe their aspirations are different from what I want, but a lot of it is kind of rooted in universal desires like everyone wants to be in a better case than, than where they are now; everyone kind of looks to other people; like, everyone compares themselves to people who are maybe of, like, a different class or, like, a different status, so I think it’s very universal.

Sarah: Oh, absolutely. And there’s so much, like you said earlier, doomscrolling; there’s so much social media that invites you to compare yourself negatively to someone else.

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: And you know that you’re looking at the highest gloss, perfected version of that person; it is not actual behind-the-scenes; it is very much an image that isn’t – like, that is not how they are all day.

Kyla: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that also applies to being an author as well. I mean, when I first joined the writing community, like, I’ve been treating, like, all social media, it’s all kind of a highlights reel: people always post about, like, happy publishing stuff, like, oh, I got a book deal! My cover’s coming out! My book’s on the New York Times bestsellers list! And so on and so forth. But the more authors I got to know, and the more we started talking, I realized that, like, even the most, like, seemingly successful authors with seven-figure deals and movie deals and so on and so forth, like, everyone has their own insecurities. Everyone is afraid of not meeting some benchmark that was set for them or that they set for themselves. Yeah, and I think that just helped me realize that, yeah, like, like, what you see on Twitter really does not reflect what happens behind the scenes of being an author.

Sarah: Nooo. No, it’s a lot of pajamas and sometimes there’s crying. [Laughs]

Kyla: Oh yeah, a lot of crying!

Sarah: [Laughs] So I’m super curious about your background in luxury magazines. How did you get started in that industry, and what did you write about? I’m familiar with some of the more product-focused ones? I used to work for a –

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: – for a billionaire who was a, a CEO, and so he would get like The Robb Report, which was very focused on –

Kyla: Mm.

Sarah: – like, products, and there were a lot of luxury travel magazines that came through the office, but the ones you worked at are slightly different. How did you get started, and what did you write about?

Kyla: Yeah, so I just started working at my first magazine when I was sixteen, and that was a –

Sarah: As you do!

Kyla: – Yes.

Sarah: Sixteen?!

Kyla: Yeah. Yeah, it was so bizarre ‘cause I remember my very first article was about, like, how to prepare for a luxury wedding, and I was sixteen, and I had never had a boyfriend, never been kissed, and I was writing about weddings, and I remember telling my parents about it, and my mom was like, I wonder how the readers would react –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kyla: – if the person telling them what they should do is like this teenage girl, like, who doesn’t, who has no idea what she’s writing about! And I was telling people like, oh, here are the best places to travel to for your wedding; here’s how you should do your honeymoon; here’s what you should buy for, like, your kids, you know, if you have kids; and I was like, I have no idea what’s going on. And I think in hindsight I really do appreciate the editors at Harper’s Bazaar Singapore for, like, taking a chance on me? I’m not sure if they really knew my – I mean, I definitely told them my age, but I’m not sure if it, like, really registered on their radar. So yeah.

Sarah: Well, clearly you had some strong writing skills at sixteen if they were like, yeah, do this assignment on weddings!

Kyla: Yeah, I guess so! I mean, I’m grateful; I think that was like a lucky break, and with that magazine on my resume it made it easier to get, like, internships down the road.

Sarah: Yeah. Did you have to do this work in person, or was this like, did they not see you?

Kyla: This was in person, but –

Sarah: Oh wow; so they knew you were young!

Kyla: – everybody told me I look older than my age, so I think I, I think, just, like, looking back, I was like, how did they not realize it, because I was just dressed like so unstylish-ly?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kyla: I remember I was talking about One Direction, and I was like, why, Kyla? Why would you talk about One Direction to this office of, like, cool, fashionable people?

Sarah: Why wouldn’t you talk about One Direction? At that period of time, that was a big thing to talk about. Makes sense to me.

Kyla: Yeah, that is true. That is true.

Sarah: So what other things did you write about when you started at Harper’s Bazaar and then moved on to Tatler? What are some of the things that you would continually write about? Obviously weddings and obviously honeymoon destinations and luxury travel –

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: – but what other things did you cover?

Kyla: I kind of covered a lot of different things? I was writing about fashion; I wrote the, I was writing about lifestyles; so those were my two main topics. I also wrote about jewelry, like luxury jewels and so on? I wrote one for Cartier, and I still really like that article, actually.

And what else? And sometimes I got to pitch my own articles as well, like for instance when I was at Vogue last year, last year, and I don’t write about beauty. I don’t, like, use makeup, so I had no idea what to really write about, but then on Instagram I saw this, like, beauty influencer, and she’s famous because she has monolids like me, and she does makeup specifically for, goes on, like, monolids, and I just thought, wow, that was so cool. I really wish I saw this when I was younger and I wouldn’t have had the fear or shame about not having double eyelids, so I, like, pitched this to the Beauty editor, and I was like, what if I interviewed her and I –

Sarah: That’s so cool! So do you, do you still, if you have to put on eye makeup, which is not a thing I do very often either, do you, do you use her techniques, or did you learn something from the interview?

Kyla: Okay, I still don’t use eye makeup. I think it terrifies me; I don’t like things, like, poking me on my eyes?

Sarah: I understand this completely.

Kyla: Yeah. It took me a few years to master the technique of, like, putting in my contact lens, so I was –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kyla: – and, like, you can’t do it in a hurry. You’re like, I need a mirror; I need to be like poking around my eye for a good, like, a couple of minutes also, so I might kind of stay away from eye makeup, but I love looking at her photos; like, love it!

Sarah: That is really cool. That is really, really cool, especially because, I mean, I know a lot of people (a) learned how to apply makeup from YouTube and Instagram, but also how to apply makeup when the default of what makeup promotes is a very specific white-focused standard and –

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: – there are lots of variations in skin tone and eye shape that aren’t accounted for in, put the makeup here; put the makeup there. Like, that doesn’t work for everybody.

Kyla: Yeah! I mean, I remember watching, like, white YouTubers when I was younger and also Michelle Phan; she’s like this Asian YouTuber, but she has, like, really big double-eyelidded eyes that I don’t have?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kyla: And they would always say like, oh, you want to put this into your crease, and I remember just looking at myself in the mirror and being like, where is my crease? Like, this is just like a flat canvas!

Sarah: I don’t have a crease, so I can’t do this! Yeah, I have –

Kyla: Yeah!

Sarah: – I have very deep-set eyes, and I also wear glasses, so I hired somebody to teach me how to do makeup for a wedding in 2019, ‘cause I was like, I can’t do this. Cannot.

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: And she actually had me draw my crease on my eye under my brow bone. She’s like, you don’t have a crease that’s going to show up because your glasses are going to be in the way, so you draw your crease up here. So when I do my makeup –

Kyla: Oh –

Sarah: – and I don’t put my glasses, I don’t have my glasses on, ‘cause I’m, you know, busy –

Kyla: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – putting stuff on my face, I’m like, I look ridiculous. I should not have fired, I should not have followed her advice. I look, I have lines on my face that look – this is going to look terrible. So then I get my glasses and I put my glasses on, and I’m like, oh! No, that did work! Okay! [Laughs]

Kyla: All right, yeah!

Sarah: But I had no idea, and that was 2019. I was, you know, I was in my forties before I figured that out. [Laughs]

So what were some of the things you wrote for, with Tatler? Tatler is fascinating. It is such a fascinating concept. It’s basically a magazine about society, right?

Kyla: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: So what sorts of things did you write for Tatler?

Kyla: There was this one thing in Tatler that kind of gave me inspiration for the anonymous gossip columnist in my book –

Sarah: Ooh!

Kyla: – and that’s because in every issue of Tatler, like at the very back, there’s this section where we kind of like write about what we overheard in high society, like at parties, events, and stuff, like what are socialites saying behind one another’s backs or like what sort of beef and drama has there been? And we’re all being anonymous, of course; like, we wouldn’t name anyone; but that kind of gave me the idea, like, what if there’s like one single person who’s, like, reporting on all this that’s kind of like invisible eyes and ears of high society? So that gave me the idea, but yeah, you’re absolutely right: Tatler is very focused on high society, very focused on, like, opulent luxury, I would say?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kyla: It’s a little bit le-, more unsubtle than Vogue or Harper’s Bazaar in that regard. So yeah, I would write a lot about socialites, but it was also different because when I was at Harper’s Bazaar I was only sixteen. I wasn’t really, like, trusted to, like, be sent out on assignments.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kyla: I was at Vogue in 2021. It was still during the pandemic. Everyone was working mostly remotely; there were no events of any sort? And so at Tatler that was kind of like the one and only time when I was talking to socialites, and I was, like, seeing them up close behind their glossy Instagram photos, and so that was a really eye-opening experience.

Sarah: So did you have to interview people, or did you just do Zooms with them? What were you doing?

Kyla: Yeah, I had to interview people. I was also helping out on photo shoots, and I will say that the way people behave on photo shoots is also really eye-opening.

Sarah: Really!

Kyla: And so that’s why there’s this scene in my book that the main character, she does this, like, photo – this is when she’s really kind of recognized as a socialite, and she is engaged by this magazine to do this, like, important photo shoot, and I did base a lot of my, like, I did base it on my personal experiences for all like that, it inspired the scene and so on.

Sarah: Oh wow! So do people act, like, completely over-the-top entitled and demanding at a photo shoot? ‘Cause I would be completely intimidated by having my picture taken. [Laughs]

Kyla: Yeah, no, I think people actually really are nice. I was intimidated, but no, they were very nice. Like, afterwards we’d all go out for lunch together.

Sarah: Ooh!

Kyla: There – like, there were no frills or, like, pretenses being put on. Like, we weren’t going for some fancy restaurant; we were going to, like, this neighborhood food court and just, like, eating the same five dollars noodle dish –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kyla: – so yeah.

Sarah: That’s so cool! So in your, in your, in your work for Tatler, you had to get to know socialites, Singaporean socialites, and talk to them about what they were doing. Is –

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: – is the socialite coverage in Singapore different from the way celebrity operates in the States? I would imagine it is because it’s a completely different series of class structures, right?

Kyla: Yeah, I would say it’s a little bit different. I would say that here socialites are a lot more like – I think it’s easier for them to kind of pivot into being influencers and so on? Like Instagram models and, and such, but I think in Singapore it is a little bit harder. I think a lot of them also just like to stay with their family businesses and so on. I think there is that kind of expectation – at least in Asian culture; I’m not familiar with it here – that, you know, you kind of work the family business; you kind of put your own personal desires and what you want to do on the back burner and put, like, your family first?

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Are this, are the luxury brands that you would cover for these magazines, did you, did you get samples? ‘Cause I used to joke all the time that I should not have started a romance review blog; I should have started a blog where I reviewed, like, yachts or jewelry?

Kyla: Oh!

Sarah: Because I, I like books! But I got –

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: – I got a lot of books now. So I should have reviewed yachts, ‘cause then I might have gotten a yacht. I will review your yacht if you send it to me!

[Laughter]

Kyla: Wow!

Sarah: Did you ever get product to review?

Kyla: We did get a lot of samples, and yeah, a lot of – this actually made its way into my book – like, for instance, like, I remember back when I was at Harper’s Bazaar, like every once in a while we would have this, like, giant shoe sample sale? It would just be like designer shoes being sold for like really, really low prices –

Sarah: Oh my!

Kyla: – and everyone like swarming all over it, and it just sucked, ‘cause my feet were the same size as, like, most other people’s feet, and so as an intern I always sent, like, the last day and so there were never really like any shoes left in my size? But we would get tons of makeup samples. Yeah, I think I ended up at every internship, I kind of walk home with like this giant, bulging bag of samples, and my, like, friends and my mom would always be happy whenever that happened, and I think the more senior editors would get, like, like, really big products, like bags, so like clothes and stuff, which obviously as an intern I wouldn’t get.

Sarah: No.

Kyla: But yeah, so lots of samples and being invited to really cool events, like you get to go to the launch event of the clothing store; you get – and when I was writing lifestyle for Vogue I got invited to a lot of tastings, some of which were canceled because of the pandemic, but I did get to go for a few, and that was really fun.

Sarah: What was that like? That sounds so cool!

Kyla: Like, the food tasting?

Sarah: Yeah! Sounds amazing!

Kyla: Yeah, like, honestly, a little bit intimidating, ‘cause I would go there and then there would be like a legit reporter from some culinary magazine –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kyla: – and they would be asking all these questions about, like, oh, how did you make these, like, bubbles? Or, like, how did you make this mousse? And I would have no idea what’s, like, what terminology is being thrown around, and I would just, like, eat the food, but you can’t, you eat in, like, a really refined manner? You can’t just shovel into your mouth? And usually I’d be so hungry that I all I want to do is just, like, like, like, just like devour the whole thing! Then they’re like, oh no, no, no, you have to pour this like one-thousand-year-old balsamic vinegar on it; you have to let it sit, you have to let it sit for a while, and I was like, oh my God! Like, I just want to eat it!

Sarah: Just give me the bread basket and I’ll take all the rolls. Just put it next to you under the table and start eating rolls ‘cause you’re hungry! [Laughs]

Kyla: Yeah! You know how, like, on food websites, and every time they post a recipe and before that there’s always that story that most people kind of scroll past?

Sarah: Yes.

Kyla: That was what it felt like; like, before every dish there was like this high-level story being brought out of how the chef ran through, like, Milan when he was seven with his grandmother, and then at some, like, roadside little hole in the wall he had this most amazing pasta, and he never stopped thinking about it, and he wanted to recreate it, and I heard it and I was like, okay, that’s very nice.

Sarah: So basically you had to sit through the live edition of a food blog recipe where you had to get the whole story and you couldn’t just skip to the eating? [Laughs] Oh no!

Kyla: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. So do you remember any memorable food from any of these events? Were there things where you were like, actually, no, that was pretty good?

Kyla: Yeah! I mean, the one-thousand-year-old balsamic vinegar, it was, it was so, like, old, it was really sweet, and it’s also really expensive. Like, the bottle came in this special, like, wooden case with this velvet interior? It was like a jewel, and then the person lifted it out with gloves, and then the waiter was pouring it very ceremoniously, and so I put that into my book as well.

Sarah: I always joke that there’s some high-end foods in some high-end restaurants where they’re like, this is, you know, thousand-year-old balsamic vinegar over a farm-raised, individually brushed and loved chicken named Sam who was, you know, contributed themselves to your dinner; and I’m like, first of all, this is a chicken breast from Costco – don’t lie to me – and second of all, don’t price this like, like I’m eating endangered species; y’all, it is chicken. But at the same time, seeing culinary creativity like that must be really, really cool.

Kyla: Yeah! It totally was, and I, and I found what you said about, like, the food, just, like, describing it in such an ostentatious way really funny because I thought the same thing, and so in my book there is one, like, pretty major plot point was when this other socialite wanted to write a cookbook for, like, charity, and the cookbook is just exactly what you described. Like, everything is organic or, like, artisan or, like, just the most, yeah –

Sarah: Locally sourced, rained on by the most pure oak tree – yeah, mm-hmm.

Kyla: Yeah, and here’s story of caviar and, like, this special little air-conditioned room, and they can only serve it on caviar spoons. Yeah. Like, things that an average person just would not understand.

Sarah: It’s such an interesting experience going through a dinner like that too.

Kyla: It is; it is stressful.

Sarah: [Laughs] It really is, right? ‘Cause, I mean –

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: – like, how do you – like you said, you have to eat in such a very specific manner, and you’re like, I am starving; I just want to put the food in my face right now.

Kyla: Yeah, and the portions are, like, so tiny!

Sarah: [Laughs] Yeah!

Kyla: Yeah, like, I went for a food tasting once, and after that I went to McDonald’s and I got a McFlurry. I was like –

Sarah: Oh, see! That’s what you have to do!

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: I love how you go to a tasting, and then you go to McDonald’s after.

Kyla: Yeah, ‘cause the portions are tiny, and also, like I said, they talk a lot, and so the portions are, like, spaced really, like, the courses are spaced really far apart, so you never get a sensation of, like, being full; it just feels like you’re putting a little bit into your mouth like every half an hour or so, and it drags on, and then by the end you’re like, yeah, that was, like, not filling me up? I just want something easy to just, like, chow down.

Sarah: [Laughs] So what are you, what are you planning for the launch of your book? And are you, are you drawing on any of your magazine experience with your launch as well? ‘Cause, like, clearly the magazine work found its way into your book, which must have been very fun.

Kyla: Yeah!

Sarah: What are you planning for your book launch?

Kyla: I think it’s still like seven months out, so I think it is fine; it’s kind of up to my marketers and publicists at Berkley, so I’m not very sure yet?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kyla: But I think it will be cool to kind of come like full circle and to maybe see my book featured in magazines I used to work at?

Sarah: That would be very cool.

Kyla: Yeah. When the news of my book deal came out and then the Singapore newspapers reported on it I was still working at Vogue, and everyone’s, like, super supportive. I think there were some people who misunderstood it? Like, they thought that I wrote a book while I was at Vogue and I was writing it about the people at Vogue, and I was like, oh my gosh, no way. There’s no way I could have written a book and sold it and got an agent in two months. Like, it’s such, like, a long process.

Sarah: There are a lot of people who don’t understand how long the book industry takes, right?

Kyla: Yeah, they really don’t.

Sarah: Oh yeah. They think a book just happens, you sell it, a big truck of money backs up to your front door and just unloads the, the cash, that happens, and then the book is out –

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: – like a week later, and it’s in every store, and it’s like, no, it takes forever. [Laughs]

Kyla: Yeah, people don’t understand when you tell them that it’s going to take two years to come out. They’re like, but you’re already done with the book; like –

Sarah: Yep.

Kyla: – what else is there?

Sarah: Many things.

Kyla: So it’s interesting explaining to, like, non-writing, non-publishing friends how the whole process works.

Sarah: Yeah. I, I say to a lot of people, and I’ve said this several times, you know, the book that you’re reading right now was somebody’s idea eighteen months to two years ago or more. Like –

Kyla: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: And, you know, well, why didn’t this feature in this book? I’m like, well, ‘cause it hadn’t happened yet when that person was writing it. Is the pandemic in your book? ‘Cause I’m curious about how people who are writing during the pandemic, is it finding its way into the book? Is there COVID in this book, or is this a book where we’re escaping from all of that and it hasn’t, it’s not happening?

Kyla: Yeah, definitely like a complete escape, pure escapist fashion. What I really wanted was to, like, to write about people and to write about, like, social interactions and stuff, because that’s what, kind of what high society is based on, right? A lot of socializing, a lot of networking.

Sarah: It’s in the name!

Kyla: So I love, like, my first scenes to write were always just like big events where different people come together, and then there’s like this underlying tension. Everyone has their own agenda, and that can only really happen when everyone’s in a room together and everyone just, like, looks really nice and they’re exchanging niceties that, you know, you kind of know deep down that everyone’s got, like, their own little ulterior motive.

Sarah: Yep! And you’re right: some of that stuff can only happen when everyone’s in the same room together. You can’t have a, a, a five-star, high-fashion gala on Zoom.

Kyla: Yeah, exactly.

Sarah: Like, that doesn’t work.

Kyla: You can’t really have that tension, you know, like, being exchanged over text messages. It’s just not the same!

Sarah: No, it’s not the same, and people are not necessarily going to, people are not necessarily going to be the same online as they would in a, in person at a gala, and especially when you were –

Kyla: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – when you were saying that the tension is part of being there. Everything that they’re wearing is part of the dialogue too, right, and it’s –

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: – not just what they say, but it’s the dress and the jewels and the purse and who’s wearing what and what color they’re wearing: all of that is part of the conversation too, right?

Kyla: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. I do think fashion plays a very significant role in my book, and I think more people are beginning to see that, because, like, for instance, with all the different celebrity court cases going on right now –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kyla: – and all the major media outlets are, like, dissecting and trying to decipher what their clothes mean and are they trying to convey a message? And like you said, this just doesn’t happen, like, over Zoom. Like, you know, I’m in my sweatpants; what does that say? Nothing, except that I’m at home.

Sarah: Yep! Oh yeah! If I have to do like an event online, I have a jacket that I put on, and I will do my makeup, but, like, I’ll be in jammies. This week my husband had a, a meeting which he did in my office ‘cause it’s quieter –

Kyla: Yeah.

Sarah: – and he was wearing a suit and, a suit jacket and a shirt and a tie and some sweatpants and slippers – [laughs] – and he came downstairs –

Kyla: Oh yeah.

Sarah: – and it was like, you look amazing, dude!

Kyla: Yeah, I should read somewhere that one of the most popular, like, party theme now is Zoom fashion –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kyla: – which is where people just show up in really outrageous, like, like, from the waist up they look so polished and put together, and then on the bottom it’s just, like, boxers or, like, sweatpants.

Sarah: All right, I want to go to one of those parties; that sounds really fun! [Laughs] I love it!

So what books are you reading right now that you would like to tell people about?

Kyla: Okay, so I just finished Portrait of a Thief by Grace Li –

Sarah: Ooh!

Kyla: – and I was at the book launch, and that was really fun ‘cause I got to meet Grace in person for the first time. I got to meet a lot of authors in person for the first time, and this book is also very close to my heart because it is a, it was pitched as, like, being in the vein of Ocean’s Eleven –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kyla: – because five Asian-Americans did break into art museums to steal back art that was looted from China –

Sarah: Oh!

Kyla: – but what I really loved about the book was how it explored the complicated relationship that every individual had with their own, like, cultural background and being part of the Asian diaspora –

Sarah: Ooh!

Kyla: – and it’s also different, but at the same time it kind of overlaps, and so I really like that?

Another book that I’m reading now is Arsenic and Adobo by another Berkley author, Mia? And this is like a cozy mystery, and the main character is Filipino, and there is, like, so much amazing food descriptions that I cannot read it when I’m hungry ‘cause it sounds so good.

Sarah: Oh, I read Arsenic and Adobo; there is a lot of food in that book.

Kyla: Yeah! I was, like, looking up all of them, and I was like, oh my gosh, and I just think it’s amazing that if you just ube, ‘cause I don’t think ube’s a very popular ingredient or flavor here, at least not –

Sarah: No.

Kyla: – in my experience? So I’m trying to tell my friends about it, and they’re like, what is it? And I’m like, well, it’s a purple yam, and they’re like, you put it in dessert? I’m like, it’s amazing.

Sarah: Oh, yeah, absolutely! I mean, I love, there are some bakers that I see making ube breads, because it makes the bread this gorgeous purple, right?

Kyla: Ah!

Sarah: I love that! I mean, who doesn’t want to eat purple food, right?

Kyla: Yeah, exactly! It’s, like, pretty, and it tastes good! I think it’s very underrated.

Sarah: I completely agree.

So where can people find you on the internet?

Kyla: Okay, so I am on Twitter; my handle is @kylazingaround, like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kyla: – K-Y-L-A, lazing around. I was really proud of it when I came up with it, but, you know, now that I think about it, it might not have been, like, super official or anything, but it’s okay.

Sarah: It’s Twitter.

Kyla: I think at the time I didn’t think any of this would happen. I’m also on Instagram; that handle is more, like, polished: that is @kylajzhao. J is my middle initial. And, yeah, and I also have a website: www.kylazhao.com, and my newsletter is on there.

Sarah: Fabulous! Thank you so very much for doing this interview; it has been a delight!

Kyla: Thank you!

Sarah: And congratulations again!

Kyla: I had so much fun. Like, I’ve done a few interviews before, but this was really, really fun.

Sarah: Oh, I’m so glad! Thank you!

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Kyla for hanging out with me. Her book is out in January. You can preorder it or request it from your library, and of course I will have links in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

I will also link to all of the books we discussed, and I’ll have a link for how you can read magazines like Tatler through your library, which I do often, ‘cause it’s really, really fun.

As always, I end each episode with an absolutely dreadful joke. This joke comes from Reddit; it was sent to me by my husband, who also told my son, who just looked at him blankly, so you know that if it just gets a blank teenage stare, this is high quality bad joke, right?

What’s the difference between a vegan and a computer programmer?

Give up? What’s the difference between a vegan and a computer programmer?

One is disgusted by a rack of lamb, and the other is disgusted by a lack of RAM.

[Laughs] Blank teenage stare. [Laughs more] This comes from /OmeletteAuFromage on – [still laughing] – on Reddit. Lack of RAM!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[end of funky music]