453. Uzma Jalaluddin and Hana Khan Carries On – with Bonus COVID Vaccine Info with Dr. Jen Gunter

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Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 463 453 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and this week I have something a little different for the start of the podcast.

This episode will release on Friday, April 16th of 2021, and many people in the United States and elsewhere are getting the COVID vaccine. This week, there was also reports that the COVID vaccine is causing some surprising and somewhat alarming side effects for menstruating people who get the vaccine. This week I also interviewed Dr. Jen Gunter, author of The Vagina Bible and The Menopause Manifesto. My interview with her will come out in late May, but because this was happening right now and because she just published a very long newsletter about this, I took the opportunity to ask her what is she hearing, what could be the potential side effects, and what could the causes be so that I could put that portion of our conversation in this episode. So for the first part of this podcast, I have about five minutes of my conversation with Dr. Jen Gunter about potential side effects for menstruating people related to the COVID-19 vaccine. I will be back after this section with our regularly scheduled introduction, but first, let’s take a quick break for some vaccine science.

What is it that you have heard about, and what is your thinking on the potential side effects of the COVID vaccine? What can I share with people this week so that they feel prepared and aware?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, so a lot of people have been talking about it online. Apparently there’s, like, Reddit threads on it, certainly. You know, Dr. Kate Clancy sort of took the lead on talking a lot about it on Twitter. In fact, she’s even just started a study which I linked to on, on my Substack where people can go and, you know, enter their experience, so that’s fantastic.

But, so, yeah, definitely people are reporting that, that they’re having onset of their period within a few days of getting the vaccine, and some women are reporting that it’s heavier, and some people with endometriosis are reporting they’ve had a flare in their pain related to endometriosis.

Sarah: Thank you for that heads-up; I’m in that boat too.

Dr. Gunter: This was first covered by The Lily, you know, maybe a week ago, and they pointed out that, you know, there’re really no studies looking at the impact of vaccination on menstruation, and I thought, really? How is that possible? So I did what I can only tell you is the deepest dive into smallest studies and offshoots. I even contacted Pfizer and Merck. Of course I didn’t hear back, ‘cause I guess I’m just probably some chick with a blog or something. I finally was able to track down a study from Japan from a few years ago that actually looked at the HPV vaccine and menstrual irregularities and found an association. It’s a retrospective study; it doesn’t absolutely mean that that, that exists, but it means that it’s been reported. So I think that’s a, a place to start.

So, you know, I ran through what I thought was the most likely mechanism, and I really think it’s, it’s an impact directly on the endometrium, which is the lining of the uterus, so, if it’s happening. And we also have to recognize this could be selection bias, recall bias. People who are, people who are, have medical conditions are more likely to get vaccinated early; people with medical conditions are more likely to have menstrual irregularities. So without a placebo, we’re kind of stuck. But I’m going to assume that, you know, I’m believing everybody that’s saying they’re having this happen to them, and if there’s a mechanism, the most likely mechanism is the lining of the uterus, because the lining of the uterus is part of your immune system.

Sarah: I did not know that! That’s so cool!

Dr. Gunter: Isn’t it cool? It’s super cool. The immune system of the endometrium is really important because, you know, the immune system doesn’t just protect you from bacteria and viruses and protozoans. It also helps with healing, and what does the lining of the uterus have to do every month? It has to heal itself and repair. So the other thing is, is that, you know, there’s very complex immune interactions that allow implantation, because an embryo is fifty percent foreign DNA, and our bodies don’t like foreign DNA. So there’s not only this protection from viruses and bacteria, which obviously, because of the, the portal to the outside world, as it were, you know, the, the uterus can, can be exposed to that, there is the inflammation of menstruation, and then there’s the, the, those coordinated changes of implantation. So it would make sense that something that triggers the immune system could impact the endometrium. So in the same way that you might get a fever a day or two after vaccination, then you might definitely get changes in your menstruation due to a direct inflammatory effect on the lining of the uterus. It makes perfect sense. That would be my hypothesis. In my, my, my Substack I laid out several mechanisms: Toll-like receptors, mast cells, and nitric oxide. There could be others, but there’s definitely valid mechanisms.

So we have people saying this happens to them; there’s a biological plausibility, absolutely; and, and we have some low-quality data from an older study suggesting it might happen! So this is absolutely something that needs to be studied, and it’s really disgusting we don’t have this information, because, you know, when you have a fever you like to know what could happen, and you’re like, okay, I’m having a fever; it’s a normal reaction; no big deal. But we should be able to tell people who menstruate the same thing: oh, you know, it might happen. It’s no big deal. Oh gosh, if you have endometriosis, maybe it’s going to be worse, so maybe you plan your work day or, you know, your work week around that, right?

Sarah: Exactly.

Dr. Gunter: And wouldn’t it be cool if we had this data? ‘Cause I found also an older study from the ‘80s – like I told you, I did this as a really deep dive – that showed that Rubella side effects from vaccination were worse in the second half of the menstrual cycle.

Sarah: Interesting!

Dr. Gunter: Yeah. Well, you know, your hormones affect inflammation. You know, they all do, ‘cause –

Sarah: Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Gunter: – this is all part of the machinery to get you pregnant and keep you pregnant, right? Suppressing the immune system, elevating it at different times, and so, and so that’s kind of fascinating. So wouldn’t it be nice to know if we could tell people, if you got vaccinated in the first half of your cycle, you’re less likely or more likely to have symptoms. I mean, who knows? But definitely I think getting vaccinated in the second half of the cycle would increase your risk of menstrual irregularities because that’s when the lining of your uterus is thicker. Right? So there’s more to come off.

Sarah: I already blocked off the day after my second shot. I’m ready to have an inflammatory – my, my body just loves a good inflammation.

Dr. Gunter: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s, it’s its favorite thing, and I’m allergic to nonsteroidal anti-inflammatories, so I’ve just got to deal. So, I mean, I am ready, but knowing that this was going to happen has made me feel so much better about it, and I’m, and, like you, I have that sort of disgusting anger that this was never a part of it. And this is all anecdata, but one hundred percent of the people I sent this to who had already had their vaccines who are menstruating people said, oh, so that’s what it was!

Dr. Gunter: Yeah.

Sarah: I was wondering what was up with me. I had my period two weeks early; my PMS was absolutely off the charts; I had, you know, really bad cramps; I had menstrual pain; and I was like, this is not, this is not good. So anything I can do to spread the word about it, I will do, so I’m going to take this segment and put it in this week’s episode.

Dr. Gunter: Excellent!

Sarah: Thank you for your wisdom, and I will link to the Substack as well.

Dr. Gunter: Oh thank you! And can I add one more thing about it?

Sarah: Please!

Dr. Gunter: Since writing it, I’ve been contacted by several women on the Pill or who have the Mirena IUD, the hormonal IUD –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Gunter: – to say it happened to them. And this –

Sarah: Oh!

Dr. Gunter: Yeah – and this supports my theory that it has to be the lining of the uterus.

Sarah: Yeah!

Dr. Gunter: Because, because also, an impact on ovulation would likely just delay a period. It wouldn’t trigger bleeding. So if you’re on the Pill, your ovulation’s suppressed, so it would have to be the lining of the uterus. And with the Mirena, now, people definitely ovulate with the Mirena, but the lining is so affected by the progestin, the hormone, exactly, that, you know, it would probably have to be a profound inflammatory effect, so it, that really supports my hypothesis? I mean, you know, this is all hypothesis – exactly what you said: this is anecdotal data. But it’s happened enough, and the fact that, the thing that really is infuriating: if they had just tracked this data, we’d know!

Sarah: Yeah!

Dr. Gunter: We did, we’d know! We’d be able to say, you know, yes or no!

Sarah: It’s a lot of people who menstruate who are going to get the vaccine!

Dr. Gunter: Right. And I, the, the one thing we do know is that there isn’t an increase in hospitalizations, right, ‘cause they track that. If you get hospitalized after a vaccine, there would be, then they would trigger, you know, that would trigger an analysis. So I think that we can be reassured that it doesn’t seem that people are having bleeding that’s catastrophic.

Sarah: Right.

Dr. Gunter: But again, it’s important to know!

Sarah: Yes!

Dr. Gunter: Because also, not only ‘cause women and people who menstruate want to know what’s happening to their bodies, but this might also tell us more about, you know, how, you know, how vaccines work for people who are on hormonal contraception or who are menstruating or who are ovulating, so it’s also more information, and that might actually tell us more!

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I’m always reassured by knowing why, so thank you. I will –

Dr. Gunter: Yeah! Everybody is.

Sarah: Thank you.

Thank you to Dr. Gunter for giving me that information to share with you. I will have links to the Substack and to the study, if you would like to read more, in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

Speaking of podcast, this week’s episode, in addition to having science information, features an interview with Amanda and me and Uzma Jalaluddin. We are going to talk about Hana Khan Carries On, and no kidding, this book gave me Bad Decisions Book Club membership. We are going to talk all about the heroine – no spoilers; do not worry. We’re going to talk about halal food, cover representation, gorgeous cover art, and about writing characters who find and use their voices. This is a wonderful interview, and so I’m excited to give you a preview of a future interview and a really, really wonderful conversation which is going to start in just a few minutes.

You can find all of the books that we’re talking about in this episode in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

And the transcript for this episode is brought to you by our Patreon community. Thank you, Patreon community, for being so great. If you would like to join, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

We have a new sponsor this week, and when I received the email about this one I really snort-laughed, because, no lie, I think I own seven pairs of these shoes. This episode is brought to you in part by Rothy’s. They are washable! They are wonderful! I have washed mine dozens of times, and they come out looking new. They are made of repurposed plastic water bottles, and they are knit in a design that makes them durable and ridiculously comfortable. I wear mine at conferences, and I bring them exclusively when I travel, back when travel was a thing and will one day be a thing again. They are lightweight. They never give me blisters. They are ridiculously comfortable and look very stylish. The point design is one of my favorites. They are crafted, as I mentioned, from repurposed water bottles, and my newest pair are lace-up sneakers. They are so comfortable. I adore them. They look great, and even though I ordered them in white and even though it’s spring and it is muddy, I’m not worried about it because I can and will toss them in the washing machine like I have every other pair! You can check out all of the amazing shoes, bags, and masks available right now at rothys.com/SARAH. That’s rothys.com – R-O-T-H-Y-S dot com slash SARAH! Style and sustainability meet to create your new favorites! Head to rothys.com/SARAH today!

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This episode is also brought to you by PrettyLitter. You may have heard my audio assistant Wilbur, who actually climbed into the sound box that I am using right now and then would not give it back. He allows me to use his room as my office, because he’s a cat, and the only downside to that is that his litter box is about two feet to my right. But thanks to PrettyLitter, that is not a problem! PrettyLitter is kitty litter reinvented. Unlike traditional litter, PrettyLitter’s super light crystals trap odor and release moisture, resulting in a dry, low-maintenance litter that doesn’t smell! PrettyLitter is virtually dust-free ‘cause it is manufactured with a specialized de-dusting process, and it arrives safely at my door in a small, light-weight bag that lasts up to a month. Now that I get litter bags auto-shipped, I don’t have to deal with last-minute trips to the store or this massively heavy bag to carry out from the car, and shipping is free! But above all else, here is why PrettyLitter is a pet parent’s hero: it is a health indicator. PrettyLitter monitors my cat’s health by changing color when it detects potential underlying issues. You won’t find that kind of innovation in a conventional litter. Get the world’s smartest litter without leaving your home by visiting prettylitter.com and use promo code TRASHY for twenty percent off your first order. That’s prettylitter.com, promo code TRASHY, for twenty percent off! Prettylitter.com, promo code TRASHY.

And Wilbur wants the sound box back, and I will not give it to him because it is mine. But maybe I’ll give it to him after I’m done. Let’s get started with this week’s episode. On with the podcast.

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Uzma Jalaluddin: Hi, everyone! I’m Uzma Jalaluddin, and I’m the author of Ayesha at Last and my new book Hana Khan Carries On! I write funny, romantic books about Muslim characters, and I hope after this conversation you’ll be intrigued and want to pick one up!

Sarah: Awesome! It’s like you’ve done this before!

Uzma: About a thousand times, yeah. [Laughs] But not on this podcast. I’m so excited to be here. So, so excited.

Sarah: I’m so, I’m so glad you’re here! And congratulations on –

Uzma: Thank you so much!

Sarah: – Hana Khan!

Uzma: Yay! It just came out! I’m so excited! [Laughs]

Sarah: All right, so I, I joined the Bad Decisions Book Club over this book. I stayed up way too late. You can ask Amanda. I am the bedtime commander. My chil- –

Amanda: Oh yeah.

Uzma: Oh!

Sarah: – my children won’t tell anybody what their bedtimes are because – like, even on Discord, like, my little byline is, I’m the bedtime commander; go to bed now.

Uzma: Ooh, I love it!

Sarah: My, my sleep is very important.

Amanda: Sarah was nervous asking me to stay up till midnight to turn the website over for April Fool’s. She’s like –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – are you sure you’re going to be up at midnight? I was like –

Uzma: [Laughs]

Amanda: – yeah, I’m positive. (FLAG _____ 14:37-38)

Uzma: I love it!

Sarah: If I’m up at midnight, something’s wrong or I’m reading a book that I cannot put down. I could not put this down.

Uzma: [Laughs] Oh, I’m so happy to hear that! That’s amazing!

Sarah: Oh my goodness. Now, I know that a lot of authors have said that, you know, writing the second book can be really challenging. Was that, was that the case for you with this one?

Uzma: Oh my God, it was so challenging. It really was, and I don’t know what it was. I’m not usually someone who, like, I don’t know, like, gets into their head about things?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: And – well, I guess I shouldn’t say that, because every writer is in their head about everything – but for some reason I thought, oh, I’ve done this before. I’ve actually, you know, I have a trunk novel, a book that will never see the light of day, so I, I’ve done this a couple of times; I can write my, my second book. But no, it was the most, it was the most grueling process, even though I had a very clear idea. I knew what I wanted to write about; I knew the themes; I, I had a good idea about plot and character. Because Ayesha at Last was such an unexpected hit, I was, I was surprised when it came out and it, it got as much attention and publicity as it did. I was thrilled, of course, but that put so much pressure on me as a new writer, and I – [laughs] – I tried to get, get out of my own way, and I think, the, the thing about the second book is you spend so much time writing the first book with no expectations. No one is, you know, breathing down your neck and asking you if you’re done. No one really thinks anything about you, and the freedom of that, the freedom of just being able to take whatever risk you want, is, is, you know, what, what’s missing with the second book.

Sarah: Yeah.

Uzma: So yeah.

Sarah: And then it’s, and then it’s gone, because you know –

Uzma: And then it’s gone.

Sarah: Yeah, it, it, I have had that experience when I’ve realized, oh, this thing I read, this thing I, I, I read and then I write about is going to be read by all these people. Like, I have to think in terms of the audience that’s going to –

Uzma: Yes.

Sarah: – read what I’m saying, and that’s –

Uzma: Yes.

Sarah: – a completely different headspace than, you know, writing down my own bullcrap. Like, that’s a whole other thing.

Uzma: That’s it exactly. That, that’s what it is. You, you know that’s your – like I said, I, I, I didn’t realize that people would be reading my first book. I don’t know why; it was like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Uzma: – oh yeah, people, people, strangers –

Sarah: Wait, you read it? Wait, what, really?

Uzma: So I’m not making photocopies and passing them out from the trunk of my car. People have –

[Laughter]

Sarah: There was a whole marketing plan? Holy cow!

Uzma: Kind of what I assumed would happen, but it didn’t. And so, all of a sudden, I have this second book and – but I have to say, it, it, considering that my first book took me eight years when I didn’t have anyone breathing down my neck, and my second book –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: – took me, I started in 2017, and I, I handed it in in 2019? Two years is, you know, it’s pretty, that’s good! There’s progress!

Sarah: That’s pretty good!

Uzma: So maybe there’s something to be said about pressure? I don’t know! [Laughs]

Sarah: The, the pressure of having written your name in ink on a contract is often, for me, very motivating?

Uzma: Yes, very much so.

Sarah: That, that creates a deadline that I’m like, oh, and I signed it in ink; I can’t screw around now.

Uzma: Exactly, exactly. So I feel like I really had to dig deep for the second one, too, because I knew that I wanted to write a book that was different enough from Ayesha at Last and kind of tackled some of the, the themes that I, I feel like I started having a conversation in Ayesha at Last, and I, I’m continuing with it and deepening it in Hana Khan Carries On.

Sarah: Yeah. So what is your elevator pitch?

Uzma: The, the elevator pitch I thought of first, I’m like, Ayesha at Last, I didn’t know what the hell that book was for years –

[Laughter]

Uzma: – which is why it took so long for it to get published. People would ask me –

Sarah: It’s got some words –

Uzma: – oh, you’re writing –

Sarah: – it’s got the alphabet. Yeah, you know.

Uzma: I don’t know, there’s – it’s about a guy and a girl and things happen. They’re like, uh-huh.

So Hana Khan Carries On is basically You’ve Got Mail set in rival halal restaurants.

Amanda: I will jump in because I’m coming to this with advanced knowledge, ‘cause it was a thing we talked about before.

Uzma: Yes?

Amanda: But Uzma said that she wrote one of the early drafts and completely forgot to put the You’ve Got Mail portion in there –

Uzma: [Laughs] It’s true!

Amanda: – the first time around! [Laughs]

Uzma: Yeah. So I thought, oh, this is a great pitch! It’s awesome; You’ve Got Mail; who doesn’t love, you know, Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan? It’s a 1998 movie; awesome! Then the entire first draft, I was just so focused on, you know, ‘cause You’ve Got Mail is the conceit of the two worlds, right? Like, the, the virtual world in, in terms of that movie, or the pen pan, pen pal world in, in terms of The Shop Around the Corner, the original, but I was so immersed in Hana’s world, because her world is so dynamic, it’s, you know, the, the –

Sarah: There’s a lot going on!

Uzma: Yeah, there’s a lot going on – the neighborhood, and there’s all these challenges, and then I got to the end of the draft and I was like, oh, I think I forgot to do something!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Oops! Oh darn!

Uzma: And then I had to go back and then kind of infill all the rest of the, the You’ve Got Mail part. And Amanda, I don’t know if I told you this, but the first draft, the way they communicated, there was a whole subplot that my agent was like, nope, nope. It was through videogames! They were –

Amanda: No!

Uzma: Yeah, it was, originally it wasn’t podcasts; it was through videogames.

Amanda: I would have loved that –

Sarah: [Gasps]

Uzma: Yeah.

Amanda: – as well.

Uzma: Yeah.

Amanda: That would work.

Sarah: Oh, oh, save that, save that for another book, ‘cause that is brilliant!

Uzma: That’s what my husband was saying. He’s like, no, you have lots – and it was like a, I invented a, a videogame. It was like a, a whole, like, RPG, role-playing type of –

Sarah: [Squees]

Uzma: It was really cool and kind of –

Amanda: That’s ticking a lot of boxes here. [Laughs]

Uzma: And I kind of got, got into Gamergate on it, and it was just all this –

Amanda: Oh!

Uzma: – you know, ‘cause as, as a, a young woman gaming, right? There’s so much toxicity and –

Amanda: Oh yeah.

Uzma: – stuff to get into.

Sarah: Yes.

Uzma: And then my agent was like, okay, what is the book about? Let’s get back to the basics. It’s about identity. It’s about – this, I feel like I tend to write big? Like, my plots are quite large, and I always tackle like a million themes, because deep down I’m afraid I’ll never write another book again.

[Laughter, crosstalk]

Sarah: Just stick it all in there, right? Just got to put it all in.

Uzma: That’s it exactly, yeah. But then I, I settled on a podcast because I love podcasts! I’m a huge fan of the form.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Thank you! I am too.

Amanda: So we’re going to talk about covers, obviously, because all of the covers –

Sarah: Oh my gosh.

Amanda: – have been gorgeous, both –

Uzma: Oh my God!

Amanda: – both UK –

Uzma: [Sings] (FLAG _____ 20:30)

Amanda: – and US. Like, obviously, you love them, right? Like, but authors don’t get a lot of say sometimes in, in covers. Like, were you involved in the process? Like, how excited were you to see them in person? Like, I want to know more about cover design and, and how you feel about yours.

Uzma: I’m so excited to get this question because no one has asked me? They just assume that I love it, and I do!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Uzma: I was so, so excited! I have a copy of Ayesha at Last. So the, the Canadian cover for Ayesha at Last – they just look so beautiful together. I didn’t have a lot of say in the cover at all for either Ayesha at Last or Hana Khan Carries On, but I, I do remember, because the, the US release of Ayesha at Last, my, my first novel, came about a year and a bit after it was, it came out in Canada, so they had some time to work on the cover, and they, they sent me an early design that actually had featured both Khalid and Ayesha, the two main characters from my first book –

Sarah: Oh!

Uzma: – sort of intertwined together, which was interesting, and, and I said, I just don’t know; it just doesn’t feel like the right kind of, you know, the thing for it, and they actually, they went back to the drawing board, and they came up, came up with this beautiful sort of thematic of, like, this line drawing of a hijab, a woman in hijab with her hijab kind of flowing and these bright, bold colors, and they follow that –

Sarah: Yes!

Uzma: – into the second book, which I’m really excited about. I love both the covers. The Canadian cover’s beautiful; the US cover, I think, has a, has a really special magic to it.

Amanda: And I, I like when they match, too. Like –

Uzma: Yeah! That!

Amanda: – it’s not really, like, a series, but I like it when they, like, go together.

Uzma: Exactly!

Amanda: They look really good next to each other, and –

Uzma: Exactly, exactly. I hope people will post pictures of the two covers beside each other.

Amanda: I’m sure they will.

Uzma: I’m sure they will.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Uzma: But the, I, I love it. I just keep staring at it, and I love that they picked out certain details: so the Hana Khan Carries On cover has the leopard, leopard-print hijab which Hana loves. She says at some point, at one point in the book, my favorite color is leopard print, and I love that they, they picked that out.

Sarah: I also love the iconography of, of calling attention to the idea of podcasting: on the US cover she has a microphone. In –

Uzma: Yeah.

Sarah: – the UK cover, she has headphones on.

Uzma: That’s right.

Sarah: It’s, it’s a perfect way of calling out the audio aspect of the plot?

Uzma: Exactly, yeah.

Sarah: And they’re so stunning. They’re each – can you pick a favorite? Do you have a favorite?

[Laughter]

Uzma: I hope I won’t get into trouble. I think I like the US/Canadian cover a little bit better than the UK cover?

Sarah: Yeah?

Uzma: But the UK cover has that, that pop of yellow, which I think is really eye-catching. I can, I – sometimes it’s like, okay, what’s going to stick out in a crowd, right? Like –

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah!

Uzma: – you have a whole bunch of covers: what’s going to really draw the eye? So they’re, they both have their strengths.

Amanda: I mean, I like the, the brightness of the UK cover? I feel like UK cover is, like, a fun, fun, flirty night with your friends, and – [laughs] – the US cover is a bit more like –

Sarah: Drama! [Laughs]

Amanda: – upscale, like, drama, black tie.

[Laughter]

Uzma: Yeah, yeah. That’s such a good way of putting it. Yeah, exactly. I’m looking at them both right now, and it’s funny: when the, the, the American cover for Ayesha at Last, the, the yellow and the purple came out, and then it’s so different from the Canadian cover, which is, like, you know, kind of a little bit more solemn, and so my, my younger son, who was like ten at the time, he was like, well, the US – remember, the book came out in 2018, 2018, 2019 – the US needs to be cheered up, and the Canadians are fine. So that’s why we got the more serious cover, but the US, they need the yellow to make them feel better about themselves. [Laughs] I was like, yeah, that makes sense!

Sarah: Outstanding art analysis right there!

Uzma: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, the – not wrong! Not wrong at all!

Uzma: He’s not wrong; he’s not wrong. [Laughs]

Sarah: No, no!

Amanda: We want to know more about Hana. What was your entry point to begin writing Hana? Like, when did you realize, like, oh, I have to write about this character, I have to write her?

Uzma: Oh, Hana; she’s such a fun character. I knew that going into this story, that I needed, you know, the Meg Ryan character, the, the person who owns, in, in the case of the movie, the, the little bookstore, and in, in my, my case, Hana is actually the daughter of the, the original owner of the Indian restaurant that is struggling, and she’s, she’s a podcaster; she wants to be a broadcaster. I knew that she’d have to be a bit of a spitfire: someone really feisty, someone who is very young – she’s only twenty-four in the book – and yet she has such an excellent sense of who she is as a person, and yet she kind of balances that with a certain vulnerability. She, she knows what she wants, but she’s afraid of running after it, because she knows that she’s got, she’s carrying so, so many expectations on her as she pursues that path. So there’s a certain type of personality that can, I think, balance that well, and Hana, unlike me when I was twenty-four, is very bold. A lot more –

[Laughter]

Uzma: – a lot more in-your-face. I, I kind of describe her as a little bratty? There, there are moments in the book where she just teases the people around her mercilessly and has a lot of fun with that. And, and I, I think for me, I wanted, it was important to, to write a, a figure who wears hijab, who is visibly Muslim, who is visibly racialized – she’s the daughter of South Asian immigrants – in this really, you know, no-holds-barred, unapologetic, really bright, spunky way, which in a way, coming back to our, our cover conversation, the yellow cover of the UK I think is, like, that’s Hana color. She’s just, she loves bright colors; she is a bright personality in that way.

Amanda: Well, when we, when we talked for BookPage, you had mentioned that, like, normally for, like, Muslim women in romance or, like, women’s fiction, they’re, like, throwing off the hijab and running away and, like, dating a white boy and –

Uzma: [Laughs] That’s right.

Amanda: – you know, like, you, you don’t see them marrying a, like, traditional Muslim man and, like, having a Happily Ever After, and I think for a lot of people and their limited consumption of media, they, they think sometimes, like, Muslim women are, like, dour and, you know, like, quiet and, you know, not as, like, bold as, as Hana is, but, like, you know, we –

Uzma: Yeah!

Amanda: – we contain multitudes! [Laughs]

Uzma: I love that line. That’s, that’s it exactly. Yeah, it’s so, it’s so true. And, you know, and, and the problem is that there just isn’t enough depictions of Muslim women out there. Like, it’s slowly changing? Like, you know, on the page I can see people, like, there’s, there’s, I feel like there’s a wave coming up behind me, which is –

Sarah: Yes.

Uzma: – so amazing. And remember, Ayesha at Last was only published in 2018 –

Sarah: Yeah.

Uzma: – and when it hit the market, I think part of the appeal was that, oh, it’s a Muslim Pride and Prejudice retelling?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: And there just wasn’t a lot out there. I, I can only think of like maybe two books that – Sofia Khan Is Not Obliged. There’s a few more in YA, but not so much in romance in general.

Sarah: No.

Uzma: So it’s, it’s the, it’s the lack of representation, which I can tell you as, as a writer, that actually held me back from pursuing publishing. I’m a high school teacher, that’s my day job, and I, I went into teaching ‘cause I love it, but also because I didn’t think I could actually do this! Like, when you don’t see yourself ever represented in any way, shape, or form –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: – it’s hard to even dream about entering a career like this. So I, I’m glad to see that that’s changing. But yeah, I, I definitely didn’t want to, I wanted to portray Hana Khan in a way that I just – and same with Ayesha – in a way that I just haven’t seen Muslim women portrayed on the page. Like, she’s not going to take off her hijab, throw off the, you know, what other people would see as the shackles of her culture, because that’s, that, that’s such a deep-rooted part of who she is. She comes from –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: – she’s grown up in a very close-knit, immigrant, Muslim community that has nurtured her, that wants her to do well, that love her, and she, she reflects that love and has a very strong sense of loyalty, which I think is a fundamental part of who Hana is.

Sarah: She is very much a character who is like, okay, well, why not me? Get out of my way!

Uzma: Yeah.

Sarah: I’m here, I want to do this. Get out of the way!

Uzma: Yeah.

Sarah: I, why not me? But then she meets an aunt who is even more so like that, and she’s like, whoa, wait! I thought I was –

Amanda: So good. So good!

Sarah: Oh!

Uzma: Kawkab Khala is one of my favorite characters in the book, and she is, she was amazing. She, every, I kind of had to hold her back? She, like, this happens sometimes in books where you’re like, okay, this book is not about you, Kawkab! It’s about Hana!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, she’s going to gnaw on the scenery in every, every page that she’s on.

Uzma: That’s right, she was.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Uzma: And – [laughs] – and she’s actually based on a real person! So Kawkab Khala exists – existed, I should say – in real life. No spoilers, but she, like you said, she’s this fierce woman who just exudes elegance and self-confidence, and she’s so acerbic and sarcastic, and she –

Sarah: Yes.

Uzma: – keeps telling Hana off and pushes Hana to do more and, you know, I thought you were smart! I thought you were braver! Be better! Do more! And she has this amazing backstory that is revealed later on and is one of the big revelations in the book, but that backstory actually happened. It was a, this was a great-aunt of mine who actually behaved in the exact same way as, as Kawkab did, and I thought, you know, considering the time period – this is a family mythology, by the way; this is a, a story that, that was told to me when I was a kid: she, she actually did something very similar, and her nickname in the family is Bari Billi, so big cat in Urdu, because she also did something similar to what Kawkab Khala did.

Sarah: Wow.

Uzma: I thought, you know, my great-aunt, we’re talking probably, you know, in 1930s, 1940s India –

Sarah: Yeah.

Uzma: – and I just, I think the story just encapsulates how we have these really rigid ideas of what people in other countries behave like, right? Like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Uzma: – they could never push against the patriarchy, they could never have agency or want control over their lives, and I think sometimes when you get into that type of thinking, it’s so limiting, and that’s what I was trying to do with Hana Khan: just, here’s a young, Muslim woman who is so visible, so proud of where she comes from, who’s eager to share these stories on the air. She works, she interns at a radio station, and the, the fault isn’t with her, ‘cause people who are talented and who are, want to take risks and who are willing to work, she’s being held back by the establishment, because they’re saying, nononono, you don’t know what people want. We know that people aren’t interested in stories about people who look like you, and she’s like, but I am the person who looks like me, and I’m interested! Let me, give me a chance! But she, she’s never given a chance.

Sarah: And she’s also told the stories about people who look like you are A, B, and C, and there is –

Uzma: Yeah.

Sarah: – no other option between these specific stories. And I, I absolutely loved that one of the major themes of, of this book is, is the idea of voice. Hana’s going to use her voice, and she’s going to use her voice in ways that she chooses, and she doesn’t want to have the opportunities limited by saying, no, your voice is only welcome when you talk about these things. And all of the other characters – no spoilers – all of the other characters figure out ways to communicate their authentic selves, whether it’s through direct messages or private messaging or through food or through art or through community. Was the idea of voice and authentic self part of your writing, or was that something that sort of showed up once the whole thing was, was created? You can take as much credit as you want?

Uzma: [Laughs]

Sarah: You don’t even have to tell the truth. Just, just, you know, you can be like, oh yeah, absolutely! I planned that all along; it’s been in my head since –

Uzma: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – like 2001. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uzma: Of course! Of course, yes, definitely! This was all a hundred percent planned. [Laughs]

Sarah: Of course! Of course it was!

Uzma: No, not at all. I, I, I feel like sometimes when I sit down to write my books, I always start with my characters. I always think about the people that I’m going to be spending so much time with. I’m going to be in their heads; they’re going to be talking to me at, like, random hours of the day; and they, they tell me over the course of the two years that it took me to write Hana Khan what they’re most obsessed with and what they’re most interested in. And, you know, I never thought of it in this way, I’ll be honest, that really I am, you’re right, I’m writing a book about, I wrote a book about voice and about the way, the power of voice, the power of owning your voice, taking control of your story. The book is actually obsessed with stories.

Sarah: Yes.

Uzma: Everyone tells stories, right? Like, the, the, the aunt has a story; Rashid has a story that he’s not really telling anyone, but you know there’s a story. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah. Do we get, do we, do we get his story at some point?

Uzma: You know what? I, I, it’s –

Sarah: What’s the deal?

Uzma: – it’s funny you should say that. There’s a lot of people who are like, hey, you should write a sequel with Rashid! [Laughs] Yes!

Sarah: If not, that character is the birth of a thousand and one fanfics, I’m telling you.

[Laughter]

Amanda: There’s always one; there’s always one in every book.

Sarah: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Uzma: Yeah, no, but you’re right: voice is, is so key, and I think for – this comes back to, I guess, one of the things that I, that I always write about when I’m writing about this particular community, this Muslim-Canadian community. It’s some-, it’s, it’s a theme that comes up again and again. It’s the lack of voice, right? And I’ve, I’ve felt the impact of that lack of voice my entire life, and so maybe this is one of those things I’m just going to come back to again and again as I, as I try to demonstrate through my words how important it is and the power of what happens when you give someone a voice.

Sarah: Yeah. This is very self-indulgent: my favorite part was the very subtle contrast between radio and podcasting, and as a very long-time podcaster I found that part very savory.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: What research did you do for those scenes? Because, you know, people think radio, especially radio that isn’t scripted, that’s just interviews and adlibs, people think it’s just incredibly free medium, but radio is very corporate, and there’s very, very much a limitation. Podcasting can be corporate too, but sometimes it’s like, welp, whatever; I’ve got a mic and I’ve got an internet, and it’s all me! What was your research like for this part of the story?

Uzma: So my re-, my research comes from just being a fan? A lot of it was, that’s where it started, anyway?

Sarah: Yeah?

Uzma: I’ve listened to, I’ve grown up listening to, like you said, more corporatized radio, you know, in, like, when I was a kid I remember being twelve years old and listening to, like, back then, the Top 40 AM stations, you know, like – [laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah! Oh yeah.

Uzma: And, and growing into that, into the FM radio stations, the Top 40 stations, and then, and then all of a sudden discovering, like in Canada we have the CBC, and just feeling very grown-up as I drive to work, like, oh, I’m listening to the CBC. And of course all the NPR stations.

Sarah: Yep.

Uzma: And then I started listening, I think my first foray into podcasting was, I think it was 2014 with Serial, right?

Sarah: Yep.

Uzma: A lot of people got into podcasting –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: Oh yeah.

Uzma: – and I was off to the races. I’m a huge fan of NPR, and I also love listening to, like, a wide variety of, you know, indie podcasts, including this one.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Thank you!

Uzma: I subscribe. And, and, and I, and you’re, you’re so right: there’s just a different way that – the thing I love about podcasting is it, it, there’s so many out there, and there’s, it’s, it’s like the internet: there’s something for everybody. If you’re into home, I don’t know, home decorating? There’s a podcast for you.

Sarah: Yes. Yes.

Uzma: If you’re into – for me, it’s all about writing, any kind of writing podcast? You know, I’m right there. The research I did was, I actually, I actually hired a sensitivity reader, someone who I knew. It was a, a young, Muslim woman who lives in Toronto; who has, who has worked in radio; who has had, you know, kind of like the, the university radio experience and has also run more of a corporate type of podcast type of thing. And I had her read it, and I was like, is, does this sound like it’s accurate? And a lot of it is just my imagination. So I’m, I’m so happy to hear that I got it right.

[Laughter]

Uzma: I was, I was a little unsure. I was so unsure I hired a, a reader, and she, she goes, she, she was like, yeah, you, it, it’s good, but I, I’m glad to hear that confirmed!

Sarah: Oh, it was delightful. It was a part of, one of my favorite parts of the book.

Uzma: [Laughs]

Sarah: ‘Cause, I mean, I started a podcast ‘cause I wanted my own radio show, and getting a job in radio is kind of difficult. There’s not that many of them.

Uzma: Yep.

Sarah: And I’m very much a, well, I want to do this; who’s going to stop me? type of person. Like –

Uzma: Yeah.

Sarah: – why not me? Why not? I’m, who’s going to stop me? I’m going to do this, even though it’s really scary. [Laughs]

Amanda: One of, like, Sarah’s best forms of advice that she continually gives me when I come to her for things is, run it up the flagpole and see who salutes.

Sarah: Yep!

Uzma: Ohhh!

Sarah: Run it up the flagpole!

Uzma: Kind of like that!

Amanda: Yeah! Just do it and see how people respond, and, you know, that’ll, that’ll tell you whether you want to keep doing it or not!

Sarah: Yep!

Uzma: I love that! That is so –

Amanda: Yeah.

Uzma: – that’s so true! That’s such a, that’s such good advice, right? And it just –

Amanda: It’s –

Sarah: It was given to me and I was like, yeah, you’re right! 

Uzma: Yeah!

Sarah: And if I don’t like doing it, then I’ll stop! But if I do it and I, and I enjoy it and, like, five people enjoy it too, well, okay, winner! That’s great!

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: The real question is, who’s stopping you? Is it you stopping you? ‘Cause if it’s you stopping you, then you need to get out of your own way! Why are you stopping yourself?

Uzma: It’s so true. And, and I, I feel like I, that, I feel like, I wish someone had told me that when I was twenty-five.

[Laughter]

Amanda: So no, obviously, no more spoilers, but –

Sarah: I try so hard to keep episodes about new books –

Amanda: I know, I know! [Laughs]

Sarah: – spoiler-free? But then I’ve read them. I’m like, so I want to ask you about this one scene about three-quarters into the book when they’re proclaiming –

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: – their undying love for each other and then this happens!

Uzma: [Laughs]

Sarah: You know, I can’t do that. So yeah, no spoilers! [Laughs]

Amanda: But –

Uzma: That’s for the after conversation.

Amanda: Yeah.

Uzma: It’s, you know how on, on Goodreads you can click spoilers and –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Book club! Book club convo, yep.

Uzma: Book club.

Amanda: But there are moments in Hana Khan where she or her community deals with xenophobia, anti-Islamic prejudice, racism, hate crimes. Were those scenes painful to write? Were they kind of like therapeutic in a way to work through them through writing? How did it feel writing those?

Uzma: Yeah, you know, it, it’s, I’m glad you brought that up, brought that up, because a couple of readers have said, early readers have said that, you know, they thought they were reading a certain kind of book, and then halfway through, this horrific thing happens. And it –

Amanda: Because it can’t be a rom-com if that –

Uzma: [Laughs]

Amanda: God forbid. [Laughs]

Sarah: You cannot –

Uzma: Something serious.

Sarah: Who let this Islamophobia into my rom-com?

[Laughter]

Sarah: What was that about?

Amanda: Excuse me, excuse me, waiter. There’s –

Uzma: [Laughs]

Sarah: There’s racists in my book!

Uzma: There’s, there’s hatred in my –

Amanda: In my rom-com!

Uzma: – in my beach read. [Laughs] But, you know what? You’re making a joke, but that’s exactly how it happens!

Sarah: Yep!

Uzma: And you’re just drinking a coffee, minding your own business, and all of a sudden it comes at you. And, and I wanted the reader to not just, to kind of not be bracing for that?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: Because that’s what happens with, with the –

Sarah: Yeah.

Uzma: – racialized people, with minorities. You, you never see it coming, even though you are always on guard, and that’s the irony of it. And I was trying to kind of, you know, Hana is almost, like, letting down her guard a little bit. She really feels safe in the Golden Crescent neighborhood; her, her close, like, close in that community, which is why events that happen later on in the book are even more disturbing. But the first time something happens is when she’s out in the city of Toronto, and I don’t know if either of you have ever visited Toronto. You have. It’s a very diverse city. There are people from all over the world, which I love about it, and for me, I’ve always felt pretty comfortable walking around, but I’m also very aware that I’m a visible Muslim woman, and I’m always aware of my surroundings, especially when I leave my neighborhood. That’s, that’s just the fact of, you know, being the person that I am.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: And, you know, I, I, I remember one time I was out with a, a friend of mine who was also, she’s a, she’s a Pakistani-American woman, and I was just, we were wandering around Toronto somewhere, you know, and I, I wear hijab and she doesn’t, and she was more aware of the stares that I was getting than I was, because I felt like, oh, I’m in a, a neighborhood I’m comfortable with, and she’s like, people are staring at you, and I was kind of flicking my hijab and saying, yes, of course they’re staring at me. Of course; why wouldn’t they?

[Laughter]

Uzma: And I was passing it off as a joke, but she was pointing out the, you know, something that is really, I don’t even notice it, because those stares aren’t dangerous. It’s when people start invading my space that it does. So I remember when I was drafting, and I wrote that, this particular scene. I think I started crying because it was so painful, and while nothing that extreme, thankfully, has happened to me, I know what it’s like to be attacked, to be harassed, whether it’s online or in person.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: And, you know, like, I was, I was twenty when 9/11 happened, so I remember what it was like to get, jump on the train and go to, go to school the next day and just feel like, oh my God, does everybody hate me? I didn’t –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: – I had nothing to do with this, I’m in Toronto, but does everybody hate me? And that feeling like you’re walking around with, like, a target on your back. So it, I think it was quite therapeutic to write about it and to really explore it, but the other type of Islamophobia or sort of – I don’t know; I guess it is a type of Islamophobia; it’s a type of discrimination, definitely – is what she experiences at work with her boss, Marissa.

Sarah: Yes. That was just as hard to read, if that makes sense? Because it’s, it, ‘cause it’s cloaked in niceness. Not kindness –

Uzma: Yes.

Sarah: – niceness.

Amanda: Yeah, there’s something more, like, insidious about –

Sarah: Yes, that’s the perfect word! Yes.

Amanda: – you know, like, racism or, like, xenophobia that’s, like, not, like, outward. Because, like, when it happens you’re like, okay, like, this person’s a racist; got it. Like, you know, I, I know what they’re about, but when it’s like, kind of like slipped in a little bit, it feels like – it feels grosser. It feels, like, way more gross than, like, outward racism.

Uzma: And it, you know, I always think about, you know, one of the definitive rom-coms fiction that I, I read like twenty, twenty years ago was Bridget Jones’s Diary –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Uzma: – and then in, I think it was the first one? I can’t remember. May, might have been the second one when Bridget Jones is describing how one of her friends is like a jellyfish attack? Like, you don’t know that you’ve been stung until after it’s, it’s over. You don’t even realize it, and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Uzma: – I always think about that, ‘cause it’s so relatable –

Sarah: Yes!

Uzma: – to my life, right? You don’t even know! And, and I purposely wanted to have a character like Marissa ‘cause in my first novel, Ayesha at Last, there’s a character who’s also an Islamophobic boss who really torments Khalid in a really in-your-face, he-should-report-her-to-HR, you know, obvious way, and that, luckily, I don’t think is the norm for most people’s work places? Most of us deal with a little, like you said, insidious type of attacks, and it chips away at Hana’s self-confidence. It, it kind of breaks her down on a, on a level that is just as painful and, I think, damaging as the in-your-face Islamophobia that she faces throughout the book, and I wanted to show both, because I actually think the microagressions that you face on a daily basis can be worse, and those I’ve had. Those I’ve had throughout, you know, yeah, even as a teacher from some of my colleagues, some –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: – some people that I’ve worked with, and yeah! And, and that’s, it’s, it really shakes your sense of self.

Amanda: Yeah, like the, the smaller things have, like, this weird way of, like, burrowing –

Sarah: Yep.

Uzma: Yeah.

Amanda: – themselves, and they’ll, like, pop up like days later –

Uzma: Yeah, yeah.

Amanda: – and, you know, you have to kind of like check yourself or, like, where, did they? Was it? Like, he just –

Sarah: Yeah.

Uzma: Yeah! Yeah! It, it, it –

Amanda: It’s worse, I think.

Uzma: You’re so right! It’s, it’s, it’s the whole gaslighting aspect of it is like, did that happen? Maybe I’m being too sensitive.

Amanda: Am I, yeah, am I being too sensitive? Like –

Sarah: Yep.

Uzma: And yet the weight of that, I think, long-term, can, can be felt in way, in, in really subtle ways.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: And sometimes not-so-subtle ways. So I, I alluded earlier in our interview to the fact that, oh, you know, the lack of representation really held me back from entering or feeling, like, comfortable enough to enter the world of publishing for so many years. Like, I didn’t even start writing until I had been working as a teacher for a few years. I had, I had two children, and I was home on maternity leave with my second kid, and I was like, you know, I should really write that book; if I say I’m going to write that book, I should write that book –

Sarah: Yep.

Uzma: – you know. By the way, don’t write, start writing a book – [laughs] – when you have an infant at home? But anyways, I started.

[Laughter]

Sarah: They’re not very conducive to any form of productivity.

Uzma: Not really, no. No, no. (FLAG _____ 44:45)

Sarah: Like, that whole, they, they sleep all the time – they don’t.

Uzma: That whole sleep – [laughs].

I was in my thirties before I, I even felt confident enough to, to say to myself, yes, I want to be a writer –

Sarah: Yeah.

Uzma: – and, and I think that’s, that’s what it does, right? Like, the, the, the subtle racism that I probably have felt over my lifetime, and, and I have to say, like, I, I, I have a lot of supporters. I’ve always, you know, been raised in a, in a family that was very loving and very supportive, so I didn’t have that to deal with, but – and yet I was still holding myself back.

Sarah: Building on your interview with Amanda that you did for BookPage, which I will link to in the show notes –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – one of the most frequently mentioned aspects of this book is the, not only the portrayal of a Muslim woman experiencing love and romance and all of those emotional parts of courtship, but you also include a lot of Muslim tradition and culture. Like, she goes to mosque; she goes to community events. Were there, were there more scenes of her life and her daily, her daily routine as a Muslim that you had, had to cut?

Uzma: The biggest scene that I, I did have to cut – and this was simply because my editor was like, oh my God, you have so many things happening in this book. Can we, like, pare it down?

[Laughter]

Uzma: What is the story? That’s what everyone had to ask me: what is the story? Focus! There was this one scene that I, I personally wanted to keep in, but my editor was right – she’s always right – and it’s, it’s, it’s –

Sarah: So annoying.

Uzma: [Laughs] I know! They’re always right; just listen to your editor. It’s actually, it’s, it’s part of, it’s adja-, it’s Muslim-adjacent, I’m going to say, and it’s this thing that has popped up in recent years. So the Muslim community in Toronto is now becom-, starting to become more established. We’re a couple generations in; you know, like, I myself am the daughter of immigrants who came to Canada in the 1970s. And so we’re doing, we’re starting to do things like, we throw, like, big galas, you know, for a fundraising event. We’re, like, you know, turning into, like, the ladies who lunch and, you know, as, as we, we grow more roots and we, we start making more money, and, and all of this kind of stuff. So I had this scene where Hana, you know, daughter of a working-class immigrant who is, you know, totally take-no-, take-no-nonsense, goes to this fancy gala and has something really dramatic happen to her there, and I wanted to describe it because a Muslim gala is like, there’s no alcohol, only mocktails. Everybody’s dressed up, but, like, they’re all, like, it’s like hijabi formal, you know, so, like, all the hijabi influencers, that kind of, you know – and it’s super blingy because a lot of them are South Asian, and speaking as a, as someone who’s (FLAG _____ 47:07), I love bling.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Uzma: You know, the blingier the better. It’s just who I am. And so I, I had to cut that scene, and I was like, I will put it somewhere else!

[Laughter]

Uzma: The next book!

Amanda: – definitely sounds like indulgence to the max. Like – [laughs]

Uzma: It was! It didn’t – I mean, something happened, but the advice I was given was, you know, you can make that something happen somewhere else, and, and that’s okay too. But I included it because I wanted to show, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s like culture isn’t just inside. As much of it, much as it inside the mosque and how, you know, intrinsically important the mosque is in, you know, in the life of an observant Muslim, like, their entire life is lived within the, you know, the umbrella of their faith, and so that, that, that means where they socialize, but also, like, what does a fun night look like to a bunch of well-heeled Muslim, young Muslims, you know? Where’s the hookup scene? Where’s the, where’s the check-out culture? Like, where does that happen? And I think I’m going to include more of that in my third book, but I had to cut that out. [Laughs]

Sarah: Ah!

Amanda: We’ll just have to wait. [Laughs]

Sarah: Fine.

Uzma: I’m a slow writer, so you’ll have to wait.

[Laughter]

Amanda: Wait a little bit.

So you are an English teacher, and your first book did have Pride and Prejudice elements to it, and you recently wrote the foreword for a new edition of Persuasion by Jane Austen, which is so cool. Obviously, like, how has Austen influenced you, and what was it like, you know, being able to write a foreword for a, a Jane Austen novel?

Uzma: Oh my God. When I got that request I nearly died.

[Laughter]

Uzma: I was like, don’t pay me; I’ll pay you. It’s fine. [Laughs] I was struck. It was so fun. It was from Penguin Random House’s, is, has a, what they call a Torchbearers series, and I have the book right here. I keep it very close by in my office. It’s beautiful!

Sarah: Yes, this really happened! See?

[Crosstalk]

Sarah: It’s real; it really happened!

[Laughter]

Uzma: And they, they said that they’re reissuing a few, some books that maybe aren’t, I don’t know, for whatever reason, you know, like people always think of Pride and Prejudice when they think of Jane Austen, but Persuasion, for some reason, even though it’s one of my favorites from the canon, gets kind of like second billing, so they’re, they said, we’re reissuing a new book, and we’re doing this for a whole bunch of different writers, and we want to do, we picked this one for Jane Austen, and would you like to write the introduction? And it was such an honor; it was amazing! I, I went at it like I was an English lit student all over again.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Uzma: I had my copy of Persuasion; I had things underlined and highlighted, and I had all my, my secondary sources, and the editor was like, calm down.

[Laughter]

Amanda: We don’t want a full book; we just need an intro.

Uzma: [Laughs] It’s like, what? I can only write this many words? So it was, it was great, and I’m, you know, my, my first novel was, Ayesha at Last, it’s a Pride and Prejudice retelling, and, and I’ve said this in many interviews: I didn’t realize I was doing the Pride and Prejudice retelling until about the fifth draft. So –

Sarah: [Laughs] Surprise!

Uzma: – clearly I’m a little slow! And when I realized it – ‘cause another person pointed it out; I didn’t even realize it – you know, she said, you know you’re doing Pride and Prejudice, and I was like, really? Okay.

[Laughter]

Uzma: And I leaned in, and I, I think it’s because, you know, I’m – and this is kind of one of the things that, that I thought about a lot – that I read Pride and Prejudice as a teen, a young teen. I loved it. I’ve reread it so many times; I’ve watched every single movie adaptation; I’ve read so many –

Amanda: Okay, what’s your favorite, what’s the best adaptation?

Uzma: Oh, the A&E version, of course, with Colin Firth. Hands down!

[Laughter]

Uzma: Keira Knightley does a good job, but no way; Jennifer Ehle all the way. And I think when you’re, when you love something that much and, and you first experience it as a youngster, it stays in your heart in a way that I think other books just don’t, right? And it influenced me so much, which is why I think children need to be exposed to diverse literature from a very young age, because you don’t know what the story is that will influence them when they’re older, the ones that they’ll keep with them into their adulthood. Like, I’m a big fan of, for instance, the Canadian classic Anne of Green Gables. That whole series I read as a kid myself, and it really, it really impacted me as a, as a reader. I’m sure I’ll write a Muslim Anne of Green Gables at some point. And someone told me that You’ve Got Mail is also a – she’s actually a professor at UNC, so I’m sure she knows what she’s talking about – said that You’ve Got Mail is actually based on Pride and Prejudice as well, so maybe I just keep rewriting the same book over and over again.

Amanda: I can see it; I can see, like, the –

Uzma: Yeah.

Amanda: – the vibes between, like, Meg Ryan and –

Uzma: Yeah, yeah! And, and the, the, almost the, the social class difference, right –

Amanda: Yes!

Uzma: – ‘cause Austen wrote about class a lot, and, you know, Aydin, in my book, certainly comes from a very wealthy, established, tycoon-y type family, and Hana Khan comes from working-class roots, and the satire is, I think, is, is kind of present in, just as it is in Pride and Prejudice, it, it could be in Hana Khan Carries On. My first novel also played off of a lot of Shakespeare, and I think that’s where my English teacher roots come in too, so I had a lot of –

[Laughter]

Uzma: – you know, like, classic comed-, Shakespearean comedic elements like that.

Amanda: You just can’t shake it, it seems! [Laughs]

Uzma: I can’t, I can’t! You know, take the English teacher out of the classroom, but it’ll never leave –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Amanda tells me that you are also a fan of You’re Wrong About.

Uzma: God, yes! I love that podcast! It’s amazing. I’m a huge fan.

Sarah: It’s so good!

Amanda: Sarah loves it. 

Sarah: I love it. And I can’t listen to a lot of it because whatever it is that we’re wrong about is going to be miserable and awful, and I’m going to feel terrible!

[Laughter]

Uzma: It’s so true!

Sarah: Like, we’re wrong in so many bad ways. So –

Uzma: So many ways.

Sarah: – what is your, what was your favorite episode series for that, for that show? And have you tried Maintenance Phase yet?

Uzma: You know what, I haven’t tried Maintenance Phase. I’m really excited to dive in. I want to go for a walk after this interview, and I’m going to listen to it; I’m excited. What brought me to you’re, You’re Wrong About is, was the Princess Diana series that they did?

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Uzma: But I love that podcast. I think my favorite one, the one that I constantly tell my friends to go and listen to, is “The Obesity Epidemic.”

Sarah: Yes!

Uzma: It’s the best one. It was so eye-opening; it made me rethink so many things in my life. Every time my friends complain about, you know, they’re on a diet or they’re, you know, they need to lose weight, I’m like, no. We need to be happy with who we are, and –

Sarah: Yeah!

Uzma: – this is really toxic for you?

Sarah: Yeah.

Uzma: So I’ve become a bit of an evangelist – evangel-, -vangelical? Evangelical – on that particular episode, and I forward it to everybody. I don’t think anyone has listened to it, ‘cause I would have gotten a lot of, like, we need to talk about this!

Sarah: Yeah!

Uzma: But I’m going to break them down; it’s going to happen.

Sarah: Just wait until you start Maintenance Phase; it’s like that times a thousand.

Uzma: Ah!

Sarah: The episode –

Uzma: I can’t wait.

Sarah: It, it’s really cathartic to listen to something like that, right? And be like, okay, yes –

Uzma: It is.

Sarah: – I do not need to be mean to myself about this. I do not need to be mean to myself –

Uzma: Exactly!

Sarah: – about having an Oreo! I’m going to have another Oreo!

Uzma: Exactly! I feel like we also just need to be kinder to ourselves, and, and as someone who, sometimes my self-talk is so negative? I’m, I’m that insecure writer constantly. I just, I, it was such a good reminder.

And, and I love their reactions to each other. They’re like, no! Oh my God! What!

Sarah: What!

Uzma: Tell me more! I love it! The support in that podcast is beautiful to watch – listen to.

Sarah: Do you, do you think that Sarah Marshall is looking at the Satanic Panic surrounding Lil Nas X right now and being like, thank you!?

Uzma: Yes!

Sarah: Thank you so much!

[Laughter]

Sarah: I’m just writing about this! Do you think, like, her head just, like, lifted off her body when all of that happened?

Uzma: Completely.

Sarah: I was like, oh my God, another Satanic Panic?

Uzma: I know, I know! She, she needs to get that book proposal in now!

Sarah: Right?!

Uzma: That’s some bank, Sarah!

Sarah: Oh my gosh. Oh! And, and I’m like, wow! Everything happens in cycles; it’s always the same. It’s like the –

Uzma: So true.

Sarah: It’s like the mimeograph machine, which is my favorite, like, metaphor for old copies?

Uzma: Yep, yep!

Sarah: Because some old technology making old copies?

Uzma: Yes.

Amanda: I don’t know what that is!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Okay.

Uzma: And when you see it from that perspective, you just really realize, oh! Okay, so we, we’re all just obsessed with the same thing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: – but then we forget about it, and then it comes back –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Uzma: – and we get obsessed again.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Uzma: There’s something kind of comforting about it, right?

Sarah: It is.

Uzma: A little bit, little bit.

Sarah: It’s like, oh, is it, is it Satanic Panic season?

Amanda: Like, look at your watch like, it’s about time for another Satanic Panic. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: So usually the last question we, we tend to end on is asking you, what are you reading right now that you want to tell everyone about?

Uzma: I’m really excited for my friend’s book Misfit in Love? So this is a YA novel. S. K. Ali, a good friend of mine wrote this, and it’s a, it’s a follow-up to her, I think it came out in 2017, her –

Amanda: Love from A to Z?

Uzma: – first novel.

Amanda: That one?

Uzma: No, Saints and Misfits. It was her first book, so this is the follow-up to that. So I’m really excited, and it’s amazing, and it comes out in, at the end of May, and everyone should take a look at that.

Just in general, I’m always, in terms of romances, I’m always a big fan of Alisha Rai? Love her work. You know, I, I loved her, I have her book here. Which one? It, it was the series that was set with, like, the, the Romeo and Juliet kind of family series.

Amanda: Oh, Forbidden Hearts series!

Uzma: Forbidden Hearts! I, I listened to –

Amanda: Yes!

Uzma: – to the podcast episode that you, you guys did with her when it was first launching. Love that series. And I, I just finished her – I, I’m sorry; I’m in the process of reading her First Comes Like, which is with the hijabi character, and I’m really enjoying it right now.

Amanda: It was so funny at the bookstore I work at yesterday: this woman in a gorgeous dress just comes, like, bustling into the store, and I was like, you know, keep your mask on, sanitize your hands. I was like, is there anything I need – like, is there anything I can help you find? She was like, I’m just here for one book that I heard about, and I need it right now, and –

Uzma: Yeah!

Amanda: – you have to tell me if you have it.

Sarah: One of us, yes, hmm?

Amanda: And I was like, what, well, what are you looking for? She was like, I, was like, First Comes Like by Alisha Rai. I, she’s like, I heard about it and I need it! [Laughs] And I was like, yeah, we have it! And she left with, like, a big – she did get that one, but she got, like, The Marriage Game by, like, Sara Desai and, like –

Uzma: Ooh, yeah!

Amanda: – got a good stack, but she was like, I need First Comes Like!

Uzma: I love that.

Amanda: Please tell me you have it! She was a woman on a mission!

Uzma: Oh man, I love that.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Uzma: I, I love someone who enters a bookstore and is like, I will die if you don’t give me this book. It’s like, yes, you are –

Sarah: You have come to the right place.

Uzma: – the right place.

Sarah: Yes.

Uzma: Kindred spirits, yeah.

Sarah: We know this feeling, yes. Been there; it’s okay. Are you all right? Do you need a snack?

Amanda: Need a water?

Sarah: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I, I have been where you are. Can I help you?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Thank you so much for doing this interview. I could seriously –

Uzma: Of course!

Sarah: – hang out and chat with you for like another two hours.

Uzma: Likewise! This was so much fun!

Sarah: Super not fair to your schedule, but thank you so, so much for doing this. I could not have enjoyed this conversation more. Thank you so much for your time.

Uzma: Of course. Please invite me back. This was so much fun!

Sarah: And, listen to me, anytime. ‘Kay, first of all, I need you to email me and tell me what you think of Maintenance Phase. Like, I, like –

Uzma: Okay. I will do –

Sarah: – I, I really want to know what you think, ‘cause it’s just, it –

Uzma: Definitely.

Sarah: – it is, it is both enraging and inspiring at the same time –

Uzma: Ugh, that’s my jam! [Laughs]

Sarah: – and I’m mad, I, I’m mad, and I want to eat about it, but I’ve just been assured that being mad and eating about it is okay? So I’m gonna! Yeah!

Uzma: I love it! I love it. I’m going to start it today; I’m super excited.

Sarah: But if there’s ever anything you want to talk about, please email me. I would be delighted.

Uzma: I will. I will.

Sarah: Just, I have a rant. I’ll be like, all right, let’s set up a time. Tell me this rant.

Uzma: [Laughs] Oh my God.

Sarah: – hear, I want to hear all of it.

Uzma: I feel like you’re seeing into my soul. Ranting is my favorite thing to do.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Oh! Have you seen my whole website? Where I rant about things? About books particularly? Yep, mm-hmm!

Uzma: It’s why I love your website! [Laughs]

Sarah: I love it! I love it so much! Thank you so much for doing this, and please, I’m, I’m begging you, email me.

Uzma: I will, I will. You’re going to get –

Sarah: Tell me your rants; tell me what you think about Maintenance Phase. I’m dying to know.

Uzma: Definitely. It’s going to happen. Thank you so much, Amanda. Thank you so much, Sarah. This is was so much fun.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this episode. Thank you to Uzma and Amanda for a wonderful conversation, and to Uzma and everyone celebrating, Ramadan Mubarak.

I will have links to all of the books we talked about in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, especially where you can find Hana Khan Carries On, which Amanda and I both recommend, and you can read our review of it as well.

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I’m becoming a much better speller now that I have to spell things like my name. I already knew how to spell my name, but I am a much better speller.

As always, I end every episode with an absolutely dreadful joke, and this week is no exception. And this joke comes from a listener! This joke is from Krissy Brown (FLAG spelling? 1:01:31) and their six-year-old. Thank you to both of you for this outstanding piece of humor that I am going to share with you – everyone – now.

Why do dogs carry bones in their mouth?

Why do dogs carry bones in their mouths?

Because they don’t have pockets!

[Laughs] And you know how much I love something with pockets! I specifically pick out sweatpants for the Quarantimes because of the pockets that hold my phone and everything else I need to walk around the house with. [Laughs] But my, my dog does not have pockets. He just has a vest that he has to wear, ‘cause otherwise he chokes himself, and he does not like wearing his vest.

On behalf of everyone here, especially my cat, who wants the sound box so bad, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll be back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to listen to at frolic.media/podcasts.

See you next week!

[end of music]