Smart Podcast, Trashy Books, April 3, 2020

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there, and welcome to episode number 399 – wow! – of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and it is time for part three of what I am calling Bitches Assemble! We have recommendations for comfort and good wishes from Kiki, Catherine Heloise, and Shana in this episode. They are all part of the Smart Bitches writing team from different parts of the world, and we also have a, a cheese conundrum, a cheese hullabaloo, if you will, so if you have cheese ideas once you’ve listened to this episode, I would love to hear from you!

You can reach out to us at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, or you can email me at sbjpodcast@gmail.com. If you have thoughts on cheese, or if you would like to tell us what books and things are getting you through the global quarantine, I would really love to hear them, because we are collecting all of your recommendations.

I want to extend a very special thank-you to our Patreon community. If you have supported the show with a monthly pledge of any amount, you are helping to keep the show going, you are making sure that every episode has a transcript, and, well, you’re awesome, so thank you. If you’d like to join our Patreon community, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

Now, I have compliments, and I have to say it is so nice to do these, so thank you to everyone who has supported the show, and thank you in particular to the people who are getting compliments, because this just lifts my day, and I hope it does yours.

Regina W.: Someone close to you, whenever they are having an absolutely crap-ful day, thinks of you and your laugh and feels much better.

And Julia L.: You know how sometimes you hum to yourself? There are not one but two cover bands dedicated to you, and one is run entirely by magical squirrels.

If you would like your own compliment, please have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

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Shall we get started with this episode? I think we shall! Up first, my conversations with Kiki as we look for recommendations for comfort and best wishes for all of you. On with the podcast!

[music]

Sarah: So how are you, Kiki?

Kiki: I’m doing okay. I think I was sort of at the height of my world anxiety last week, and I’ve sort of got into a, a much more level, level sort of point. I think it helps that last year was a very sort of busy and stressful and a lot sort of crisis year for me, so I’m sort of, I’m, I think I’m prepared for this year.

Sarah: Yeah. The longer the weird schedule goes on –

Kiki: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – the more the weird schedule seems more normal?

Kiki: Yes! Yep.

Sarah: But then I’m, like, shocked by normal things? Like, for example, a street near us is being repaved, which by the way is fabulous for podcast recording –

Kiki: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and I’m like, you’re repaving a street? Well, I guess, you know –

Kiki: Right.

Sarah: – you’re all standing really far apart, and everything smells really bad, and it’s like a bazillion degrees when you’re resurfacing a road, so okay, sure, yeah, great! And it’ll –

Kiki: Right.

Sarah: – cut down on deliveries coming to the house! Okay, sure, great! But an ordinary thing is happening! What?!

Kiki: Yep. They’re, they’re doing construction on a house a couple houses down from me, and I’m like, you’re just…doing? Okay! I mean, yeah, sure! [Laughs] But yeah, no, I, I complete understand that. I’m on week three of working from home? ‘Cause my work started a, a bit earlier than a lot of places in the area did?

Sarah: Oh wow!

Kiki: And so I’m, I’m sort of start-, it is starting to feel a bit normal.

Sarah: What recommendations do you have for people who are looking for something comforting or enjoyable or fun? What is getting you through right now?

Kiki: Okay, I have, I have two directions that I would sort of send people in? My first direction is sort of jumping off of what Elyse said last week, which is books with no conflict. [Laughs]

Sarah: You are not the only person to be like, you know what? I do not need angst right now.

Kiki: I do not need a- – I, I want low angst; I want, you know, low stress; and so one of the things that I will be returning to, and that I recommend for some other people, is Because of Miss Bridgerton by Julia Quinn, which is the first book in her prequel series? Now this is strangely one of my most reread romances, because it is, like, a low-stress, low-angst sort of thing, so I go back to it whenever I’m like, too much is happening, and I just need to, like – I listen to it on audiobook a lot, and so whenever there’s, like, too much happening in my life, I go back, and I’m like, yes, I need to listen to forty minutes of, like, these people playing that weird croquet game. It’s not croquet, but it’s, whatever that game is.

Sarah: Lawn bowling with the Mallet of Death, yes.

Kiki: Yeah. It’s precisely what I need, and this is just like, you know, enemies to lovers, two people who sort of bond over the fact that they’ve sort of been left behind by a lot of the other people in their life?

Sarah: Aw!

Kiki: Yeah, and it’s, you know, they’re, you know, it’s an oldest son who is just sort of waiting around at home until he, his dad dies, basically? Because that’s what it’s like to be an oldest son in a historical – a female lead, Billie, who is, you know, didn’t real-, didn’t have a season and, and didn’t get married, and is sort of realizing now that she sort of missed some things. They’re the only two people that are sort of left, and they sort of bond over that, and it’s, you know, pretty funny, pretty bicker-y and stuff like that, and it’s a good, fun, low stress. There’s nothing big or a huge conflict or anything, and so I would send people in that direction of, like, this is not a stressful thing to read. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes, and it’s a very familiar world.

Kiki: Yes.

Sarah: If you’ve read any Julia Quinn book –

Kiki: Yep.

Sarah: – you know exactly what world you’re entering into.

Kiki: Yes! Yes. That’s, that is, that’s such a good point, is that it, it does feel very familiar, and so I think there’s, there’s something about the, the familiar but not, not contemporary that I, I think I am going to be reaching for a lot in the next, the next coming weeks.

And so the other direction that I would send people in, completely different from what I just said, is that – listen, right now, I don’t want to be on this planet, other people don’t want to be on this planet, and so I say –

[Laughter]

Kiki: – I say go sci-fi. [Laughs] Get off, get off Earth; go far, far away; complete-, something entirely different than the world we are living in right now, and so I’m going to recommend Polaris Rising by, I, I think I’m going to say her last name wrong, and I apologize: Jesse Mihalik?

Sarah: I think that’s right.

Kiki: Okay.

Sarah: I have not actually heard it said, so –

Kiki: Okay.

Sarah: – with the best of intentions, let’s say Jesse Mih-HAY-lick.

Kiki: Yes. And so this is the first book in the series. I actually have the second one out from the library right now, so I’m excited to dive into that. But this is sci-fi, takes place almost entirely in space. You have two very sexy, like, essentially space outlaws who are sort of road-tripping, running away from authorities, and it is, it’s really, really excellent. There’s a good amount of, like, competency porn, like space competency porn?

Sarah: Isn’t that so reassuring?

Kiki: Yes!

Sarah: Like –

Kiki: Yeah.

Sarah: – I don’t mean to fetishize competence, but at this point I have a fetish for competence.

Kiki: [Laughs] Yes! It’s just so – when the world is a mess, I want to read about people who know what they’re doing, and they’re doing it well, and, like, that is, that is, I want reassurance that somewhere out in the world there are people who are competent at what they are doing, and they are doing it. Even if it is in a, you know, sci-fi romance. [Laughs]

Sarah: No! And I want competence, and I want kindness –

Kiki: Yeah.

Sarah: – and I want people being basically decent. Like, my –

Kiki: Yes!

Sarah: – my list is, it sounds like it’s really a, a low level of expectation, but right now it’s an extremely high level of expectation. [Laughs]

Kiki: Yes. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. So yeah, that, I’m going to, I’m going to recommend, you know, any, any sci-fi, I think, just to, you’re really, you know, out of the actual moment.

Sarah: Let’s leave the planet!

Kiki: Yes.

Sarah: We’re leaving the planet now.

Kiki: Let’s leave the planet. I don’t want to be here. Let’s go far, far away into space, where you have to deal with space problems and not Earth problems. [Laughs] But yeah, so I recommend, you know, heading off into a sci-fi direction, just, or, you know, or fantasy, if people are super into fantasy. Just, like, head off away from this reality, and I recommend –

Sarah: Yes.

Kiki: – doing that with Polaris Rising. So those, those are, those are my, my, my two big, big recommendations; that is what I will be doing for the next, next little while.

Sarah: That seems like a very solid plan.

Kiki: Yeah! I, I’m trying to do a lot of, like, comfort and enjoyment during this period.

Sarah: So what wishes do you have for the universe right now?

Kiki: Oh man. I am wishing for a lot of community care, a lot of people taking care of people in, you know, safe and helpful ways, looking out for our most vulnerable. I’m also wishing, for those of us who still have our jobs right now, who will still, who will come out of this with our jobs intact and still paying us and still able to pay us, I’m wishing for us all to cough up a little cash? Now’s a really good time to be thinking about how we can redistribute some of our wealth to people who are, are going to be under some really, really tough times during and after this? You know, looking up mutual aid things in your area, giving to food banks, things like that, I think, is something that a lot of us should be, should be thinking of and taking action towards right now.

[music]

Sarah: Good – evening? Evening for you, morning for me.

Catherine Heloise: Yes!

Sarah: Greetings from far, far away! One of the things that I find so fascinating about this particular global catastrophe is that I know kind of what’s happening all over the world –

Catherine Heloise: Yeah.

Sarah: – but I don’t necessarily talk to people who are in that place unless I’m on a particular form of social media, and that’s different from having a conversation. So how are you going today?

Catherine Heloise: Well, look, I personally am going fairly well. It’s, it is a very strange time. I’ve been working from home for the last week and a half, and I spent most of that time trying to learn and teach video conferencing at the same time, so we have filled out that video conference bingo card innumerable times with –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Catherine Heloise: – with conference in mime; you know, everyone’s freezing. It’s, it’s all nuts. So that, that’s very fun – [laughs] – and, and I thought, while I was doing that, I started setting up things like, you know, an online lounge room to my friends, and we’re setting up a Shakespeare reading group again via Zoom this weekend, so just trying to get things in place, ‘cause it’s going to be a long haul.

Sarah: It is. Now, you’re, you work in a lab, so it’s actually very difficult for a lot of the work that you work with to be done remotely, right?

Catherine Heloise: Yeah. So I’m not a scientist myself; I coordinate about ninety scientists, and –

Sarah: You have my sympathy.

Catherine Heloise: [Laughs] They’re lovely. They’re very, yeah, they’re, they’re really lovely people. They’re really smart people. They are not organized people, but –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Catherine Heloise: – But I’m, I’m very lucky; I’ve got a really nice group. So at the moment it’s interesting because pretty much everyone on the admin side’s been working from home for about the last week or two. They’re trying to, you know, any nonessential experiments have to stop; that’s it. We’ve pivoted a lot of work towards COVID-19 research? Not so much –

Sarah: Wow!

Catherine Heloise: Yeah. We, we already had quite a big Infectious Diseases program. So my division is cancer and cell death; mo-, you know, there’s a combination of people who are staying to finish up the big experiments, people who are now working from home, and a group of them have started doing things like genotyping and CRISPR editing to kind of support the COVID-19 research? So the general idea is that it’s kind of a skeleton staff. It’s just the people either doing COVID-19, supporting COVID-19, or finishing up stuff which has been going on for too long to waste at this point. So yeah, it’s interesting, and we’re also writing grants, because it’s always a season of writing grants at the worst possible time. We have a, a morning tea teleconf-, video conference that I’ve set up for anyone who wants to join me and practice using the video conferencing software so they don’t do mime during the next seminar. And –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Catherine Heloise: From what I’ve seen, mime during the seminar is definitely on the cards if they don’t practice. And yeah, you sort of, you see some people in the lab, and you’ll see some people in the lounge room, and it’s sort of a weird assortment? I, yeah. It’ll, it’ll be very strange. My job won’t change that much, but other people’s jobs are going to change a lot.

Sarah: Yeah. So you’re setting up virtual lounges and was it, did you say Skype-speare?

Catherine Heloise: Skype-speare, yes! [Laughs] Well, my circle of friends, we used to do tabletop readings; we actually got through the complete works of Shakespeare, dramatic readings, very smutty dramatic readings, because Shakespeare was full of smut, and so are we.

Sarah: Oh!

Catherine Heloise: So –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Catherine Heloise: – possible way to interpret something filthily we did. And I thought, well, that’s actually – I’m, I mean, I’ve already worked out how to divide all the plays into smaller numbers of people. I’ve already got all these friends who I want to keep up with; some of them are in different time zones. We can get together every couple of weeks and do another play. You know, ‘cause there’s a lot of things you can’t do on Zoom – I have been trying desperately to figure out if choir can be done on Zoom, but, boy, there are lots of disasters.

[Laughter]

Catherine Heloise: It’s hilarious, but not useful! But Shakespeare, by and large, you’re speaking one at a time, so video conferencing is more feasible, and we still get to see each other and be ridiculous at each other, and yeah. I think I won’t necessarily have this much energy to start stuff down the track, but if it’s already going, continuing it’s quite easy.

Sarah: Oh, that’s so true! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but that’s absolutely true!

Catherine Heloise: Well, and also, you know, I spent the week teaching my, my colleagues, who I’m very fond of, but they’re not my favorite people in my life in the whole wide world, you know, I’ve been showing them how to do all this, so I might as well organize my friends as well so that we can all – you know, why should my colleagues be the only ones who are benefitting from me figuring out –

Sarah: Your organizational skills, yeah.

Catherine Heloise: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: So what recommendations do you have for people who need some comfort or relaxation or silliness? What recommendations do you have?

Catherine Heloise: So I’ve got two comfort reads. It’s pretty easy for me, ‘cause usually it’s a comfort author? I’ll kind of go, I’m now going to dive into the complete works of this person. I’m very, very fond of everything by Lois McMaster Bujold. If I had to pick a series, I mean, the Chalion stuff is amazing and marvelous, but the reason I love her is that she’s, she’s got a lovely humor to her. She’s got, she writes very optimistic worlds.

Sarah: Yes.

Catherine Heloise: You know, she writes people who are trying to do the right thing, and by and large they succeed, and you know, in her science fiction, her technology’s really interesting. There’s a strong feminist feel to it. I love all the different ways she played with what if you had uterine replicators? How would that change culture in a thousand different ways? That’s just wonderful. And also I’m, it’s also a comfort read because, you know, Bujold was my introduction to the internet. Back in 2000, ‘bout the first thing I did when I got online was join the Bujold mailing list, and I made friends there who I’m still friends with now, and some of them are –

Sarah: Wow!

Catherine Heloise: – yet, but, you know, we’ve been friends for twenty years. We followed each other onto LiveJournal, we followed each other onto Facebook, we send each other Christmas cards, and these are just people I met because of these books, so it’s kind of comforting intrinsically, but also it’s got all these lovely associations with people I’ve, I, I, I love and who I will hopefully meet one day in person, so that’s really nice.

Sarah: So you would, you would say to start with which book? Shards of, is it Shards of Honor?

Catherine Heloise: Shards of Honor for the, if you like science fiction, definitely Shards of Honor. And if you, if you like fantasy, Chalion, The Curse of Chalion, although Paladin of Souls is so awesome, ‘cause you don’t get a lot of forty-, forty-three-year-old heroines out there, and we need more of those. Forty-three-year-old adventure heroines who get their own romance subplot and are awesome. But you want to start with The Curse of Chalion just for spoilers.

Sarah: My favorite of hers is, is, is the, have you read the, the Penric novella series?

Catherine Heloise: Oh, Penric’s so lovely! Yes! Well, he’s one of those –

Sarah: I –

Catherine Heloise: – people who’s just really nice. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes, and he, his, he is consistently smart and kind –

Catherine Heloise: Yes!

Sarah: – and kind of hapless, and he’s, you know, it – and yet he has this incredibly powerful demon in him –

Catherine Heloise: Yeah, yeah!

Sarah: – who’s like, yeah, yeah, Penric, just hang on a sec; let me take care of this. Just, just, just chill for a moment; I got this.

Catherine Heloise: And I love how he’s so unassuming, but also, as the books continue, he’s unassuming, but actually he does have all this power, and he is aware of that, and he’s not afraid to use it, but he just sort of, he sort of flies under the radar, because he doesn’t, he’s not someone who’s into throwing his weight around? He’s just completely charming. And Desdemona –

Sarah: Oh!

Catherine Heloise: – is so delightful.

Sarah: I love Desdemona! I just, I love the, I love the series because it’s, it’s just very kind?

Catherine Heloise: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Sarah: And, and kindness is consistently rewarded.

Catherine Heloise: Yeah. Though honestly, I’d say that about all of, of, of Bujold’s work. That’s –

Sarah: That’s true! That’s very true.

Catherine Heloise: – why it calls to me.

And I suppose on the other, my other completely different comfort reading – and again, it’s a whole author, and hard to choose one book – but I love Laura Florand, because it’s basically the holiday in France that you have when you can’t afford a holiday in France.

Sarah: Yes! Plus chocolate!

Catherine Heloise: Oh! Plus chocolate, plus all those wonderful smells and tastes she is so good at, at, at conveying smell and taste in her books. And also, I’m an obsessive cook and feeder of people, and so obviously all her food stuff is just wonderful and makes me hungry and want to cook stuff and bake stuff.

I don’t know, which one would I start with there? At the moment, despite my adoration of all things chocolate, I’m really loving the series down in Provence with the perfumers. And if we’re going for really, really, really, really comfort one, I think the – oh goodness – A Crown of Bitter Orange, ‘cause that’s – all the stories are sweet, but Tristan is just a complete softie and adorable, so, you know.

Sarah: Yeah.

Catherine Heloise: But yeah, there, there, there’s no books in that, in that particular series that I would not recommend if you just want to kind of go, I’m having a summer holiday in the south of France now.

Sarah: What wishes do you have for the people who will be listening to this episode?

Catherine Heloise: I think – oh, I don’t know how to, how to express it very well – to me, I think, community is such an important thing, so I hope that people can hold onto their communities, that they can be supported by them and support them in turn, that just because we’re isolated, that we can’t find, you know, we, we need to find other ways of reaching out to people. We need to find ways of, of, of being close to people, and they don’t have to be big, difficult, complicated things. As I said, the virtual living room I set up on Discord, I set it going in five minutes, and now there’s people making horrible jokes in my virtual living room at all hours of the day and night, and it’s awesome. I don’t have to do a thing for that; it just happens. So I suppose, yeah. And obviously, I hope, I hope that everyone’s staying safe; I hope that everyone is staying well, that the people around you are, are well and safe, and I, I hope we can find a way through this and that brings us out better than we went in in some ways, even if it’s just a, okay, we now have to look at the world differently and find a better way to, to look after each other.

[music]

Sarah: Shana, how you doing today? How’s your weekend been so far?

Shana: Well, I’m actually having a really urgent problem that I was hoping you could help me with.

Sarah: Oh crap. What’s up?

Shana: I got a box of cheese today? I got four different kinds of goat cheese. This was a Christmas gift that my mom sent me, like a Cheese of the Month Club, and –

Sarah: I got a box of cheese: not the emergency I was expecting, but I am here for this emergency –

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and I flipping love goat cheese, so please keep talking.

Shana: Well, it, it just occurred to me that I was going to talk to you and that outside help might be available to me. So yeah, so it’s this box of cheese. I, this is the third month I’ve gotten it. Usually it includes, like, these, like, lovingly created recipes and these, like, extremely, like, poetic descriptions of each kind of cheese, and this month I’m imagining whatever’s going on in the cheese shop, you know, not the usual.

Sarah: Right.

Shana: It’s just, like, a box with, like, huge hunks of cheese thrown into it, and, like, that’s it. I had to use Google to figure out what the cheeses were!

[Laughter]

Sarah: So you have a big box of goat mystery cheese!

Shana: Yes! So I actually do need help, because my wife doesn’t like goat cheese. Like, I can’t eat four pounds of cheese just on my own! [Laughs] I don’t know what to do with it, so do you have any suggestions?

Sarah: Well, first, you can mail some to me, ‘cause I love goat cheese, but that’s, like, cross-country goat cheese, and that might be somewhat ill-advised. What to do with –

Shana: Or, yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: – what to do with goat cheese that you don’t – mysterious goat cheese, so now I’m picturing goats, like, wandering around the countryside with, like, fake mustaches and beards and sunglasses and, like, being all covert about it? I’m going to eat this grass –

Shana: Uh-huh!

Sarah: – nom, nom, nom. Mmm.

Shana: Just leaving piles of milk that, like, mysteriously, like, turn into, like, delicious fermented goodness that then –

Sarah: Right! Yeah!

Shana: – fairies pick up and, like, stick in mailing boxes –

Sarah: Spy goats.

Shana: – and then, like, send off into the universe. Uh-huh?

Sarah: Yeah, and then you’re the recipient of mysterious spy goat cheese.

Shana: Yep!

Sarah: Okay, so do you live in a house or an apartment?

Shana: I live in a house in Sacramento.

Sarah: Do you know your neighbors?

Shana: This, this is good. I know some of my neighbors. Some of the houses on my block have been recently turned into Airbnbs. So –

Sarah: Oh bugger! Well, the market’s going to fall the hell out for them!

Shana: [Laughs] Not helpful, although been very quiet lately, but you’re right! I do know my neighbors, at least.

Sarah: So maybe, what you might want to do is drop notes in your neighbors’ mailboxes: Help, I have too much goat cheese. Please come to my house and we will arrange for socially acceptable distanced transfer of cheese. Do you want some cheese? Please come to my house and get cheese! Like, if someone put a note in my mailbox that said, I’ve got free cheese, I would be there!

Shana: Well, it’s funny, because I think we already pushed free lemons on them from our tree this week – my wife did that – so I wonder what they think is going on in our house if, like – [laughs] – we keep sending them random things!

Sarah: You might need to incentivize it, like, free cheese with a bonus roll of toilet paper.

Shana: Oh, I can’t give up my toilet paper. [Laughs]

Sarah: No, you can’t be doing that. No, you can’t.

Shana: The, the new recipe was all going so well, Sarah, until, until you suggested the toilet paper.

Sarah: Incentivizing with TP may not be necessary. I, I think first offer to your neighbors, and then if they don’t – I mean, I’m assuming you can keep it chilled.

Shana: Yeah, it’s in the fridge. I just –

Sarah: Right!

Shana: – you know, I don’t know how long it’ll last, but you’re right! I like this idea.

Sarah: Yeah!

Shana: It’s funny, ‘cause you mentioned toilet paper. So I’ve, this is my first day being off of self-quarantine, and so I couldn’t go out to the store, and so my friends have been dropping off, like, deliveries of toilet paper on my porch for the past two weeks?

Sarah: Aww! That is so kind!

Shana: I mean, it’s been really nice! It’s like, you don’t really know how wonderful your friends are. [Laughs] And I didn’t even ask. They were just like, hey, Shana. We were not – so I went on a cruise earlier this month, and, which was fun. What was not fun was the returning part – [laughs] –

Sarah: Nooo.

Shana: – and I came back to, like, you know, a disaster that has been created in this country.

Sarah: This was like the super nerd cruise, right?

Shana: Yes, yes. So it’s called Jo-, the JoCo Cruise, and it’s, like, a nerd-themed cruise, and there’s, like, board games and sci-fi books and TV. Rebecca Roanhorse was there, who is a writer I really love, and I embarrassed myself pretty pathetically in talking to her – [laughs] – ‘cause I was so excited. Oh, and I got a copy of N. K. Jemisin’s new book, The City We Became.

Sarah: Oooh!

Shana: I also was pretty embarrassingly excited about that. Like, other people, there was a lottery, and so other people who got the book, you know, sedately walked down to the stage, said, like, oh, I might wait to read this till I’ve read the other books. I, of course, having read her other books, like, hopped up like I was at, like, what’s, like, The Price Is Right? Is that that, that game show where, like –

Sarah: Yeah, where you come down the aisle –

Shana: Come on down!

Sarah: – and lose your cool? Yep.

Shana: Yeah, that was me. It was, it was amazing. [Laughs] And then I carried it with me the rest of the trip.

Sarah: I would have completely lost my cool!

Shana: That makes me feel better. [Laughs]

Sarah: Seriously, my inner thirteen-year-old would have not been okay. Like –

Shana: Yeah, I was just like –

Sarah: – she would have come on out.

Shana: Yeah. Screaming, running, like, holding it to my chest like it was, like, this, like, treasured possession. I wouldn’t leave it in the room the rest of the cruise because I was worried that, like, maybe someone would take it? I don’t know who I thought would. Like – [laughs] – like, the housekeeper?

Sarah: I must carry it with me. What you need, what you need are some secret spy goats to guard your books. That’s –

Shana: [Laughs] I do! Spy goats with, like, steampunk glasses on would actually have fit in really well on this cruise.

Sarah: Well, now you know what cosplay for next year.

Shana: [Laughs] I do.

Sarah: Spy goats.

Shana: I didn’t do any cosplay this year, but next year I’m going to be all for it.

Sarah: So aside from coming back to a mash of, massive disaster pandemic, did you have fun?

Shana: Oh my gosh, it was so much fun. Yeah.

Sarah: Yay!

Shana: It was great! I didn’t have Wi-Fi, so I didn’t know what you all were dealing with. Sorry again; it sounds like it was bad, but it was so much fun. Yeah. I mean, people were really nice? Like, there’s just like this niceness of nerds that is just, like, different than niceness of other people, because people are so passionate about their fandoms? And there’s so much space for you to be passionate about your fandoms and, like –

Sarah: Yes.

Shana: – no one thinks it’s weird! Like, I went off on this huge tangent at one point, talking about gluten-free baking, and the, like, percentages of starch and protein that you needed to make it work, and in, in any other space, somebody would, like, I would have been triggered by someone’s, like, nonverbal communication like I needed to stop talking? In this space, they were like, this is great! Oh, I don’t know anything about gluten-free baking, but you can talk for hours about, about this – [laughs] – and that’s totally fine. Yeah, it was pretty awesome. [Sighs] But now I’m here. [Laughs]

Sarah: But you, but, but you have cheese.

Shana: But I have cheese.

Sarah: Lots of cheese and TP.

Shana: You’re right! I have cheese –

Sarah: Like, what more do you need?

Shana: I feel like this is a time I should make a joke about how I’m actually lactose intolerant, which I am, and how –

Sarah: Nooo!

Shana: – therefore the cheese and TP kind of are important – [laughs] – together. Luckily, I have –

Sarah: So wait –

Shana: – a lot of Lactaid.

Sarah: Wait a minute. You’re lactose intolerant, and you were gifted –

Shana: Uh-huh.

Sarah: – a Cheese of the Month Club subscription.

Shana: Yes. It says –

Sarah: I feel like there was a slight –

Shana: – a lot about my relationship with my family. [Laughs]

Sarah: I feel like there is a slight disconnect there.

Shana: Uh-huh.

Sarah: Just a, just a small miscommunication of essential information.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: Or, or your neighbors or your, or your friends know that’s why you need so much TP!

Shana: They’re like, oh no, Shana, she’s stuck at home sitting in her room. She’s really going to need some cheese. Yeah, I think it’s because in my family, I’m the one person who does like cheese and is willing to, like, consume a lot of, like, lactose intolerant pills in order to eat it, and no one else likes cheese that much?

Sarah: I understand this! I, I get it!

Shana: But, like, liking a little bit of cheese is different than, like, you know –

Sarah: Four pounds of goat cheese, yeah.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: Lot of goat cheese.

Shana: Mmm.

Sarah: I, I hear you. So, aside from goat cheese, TP, and the kindness of your friends and memories of a dope cruise, what comfort recommendations do you have?

Shana: Well, I’m glad, actually, that I had a couple weeks to think about this, because I think if we’d talked last week, my only recommendations would have been TV shows and movies, ‘cause I was really struggling with reading when I first got back?

Sarah: Oh! You are not alone in that!

Shana: Hello! [Laughs] That makes me feel better!

Sarah: Oh, not at all! Not at all!

Shana: Did that happen to you too?

Sarah: Oh, dude, for so bad. It’s, it’s like, I’ve had to keep switching genres to try to figure out what to read, and I started a book today that I had already started and was like, oh, this is fine, so I picked it back up. I’m like, these people are idiots! I cannot read this!

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: You’re just making me nuts! And I’m just like, your problems are petty and silly, and I don’t care right now! And I’m like, wow –

Shana: Uh-huh!

Sarah: – I need to take a break from this. Okay. These, these people are doing nothing wrong; the problem is clearly me. Yeah, I’ve been, I have been having a lot of trouble settling into a book because my, my, my brain is so easily distracted, and I also think that –

Shana: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – ‘cause I’ve talked about this before, that I think that my brain needs a lot of energy to construct the world of a book, and sometimes it just doesn’t have the energy to do all of that construction – 

Shana: Yeah.

Sarah: – and so I’ll want to read something where some of the visuals are already present; like, I’ll want to play a videogame, or I’ll want to read a comic or a manga. I’ll want to do something where the visuals are built for me so that I don’t have to do that extra work? But you’re definitely not alone in struggling to find something.

Shana: Hmm.

Sarah: I’m curious, though; what did you find?

Shana: Well, it’s interesting that you said that, because it’s making me think of the books that I have been enjoying, and actually the movies too, are just ones that have really cohesive worldbuilding, so you can kind of drop in with, like, minimal effort.

Sarah: Yes!

Shana: I had kind of made that connection, but I think that’s kind of what’s going on, that if I have to put in, like, even just a little bit, then I, it’s just too much for me, but if, like, it’s really, like, either an existing world that I know so well or it’s, like, totally created for me, then, then, yeah, I can kind of feel absorbed and not just watch The Butcher’s Wife over and over again, which is one of my favorite romantic comedies, by the way; highly recommend it. Demi Moore’s –

Sarah: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. The one with Demi Moore.

Shana: Yes! Have you seen it?

Sarah: And she has the – I adore that movie, even though her accent is atrocious.

Shana: It’s so terrible!

[Laughter]

Sarah: I love that movie. I love the lesbians with the shoes. I –

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: I love how –

Shana: This is making me so happy! I feel like no one knows this movie but me! And my wife.

Sarah: I love that movie! I think I own it on VHS and on CD, or on DVD.

Shana: Oh! I own it on DVD too! [Laughs]

Sarah: I love that movie. It is so ridiculous. It is utter confection. I’m so glad to know this about you!

Shana: Ditto! I feel really happy. Also, I know that you’ll get the part where, like, she supposedly grows up on this coastal southern island that is, like, completely isolated from the world, and, and I know you have this Southern connection, so you get how that makes actually no sense, that you could –

Sarah: Oh, right?

Shana: – never ever be around humans? I’m not sure exactly where this was, like Georgia, South Carolina. I’m not sure because her accent is so terrible, but I’m totally willing to just, like, suspend disbelief because I love that movie so much.

Sarah: Oh, it’s, it is a complete confection. It is –

Shana: Oh, it’s great.

Sarah: – spun sugar, and it is just delicious. So you’ve been –

Shana: Okay, how –

Sarah: – you’ve been rewatching it?

Shana: Yes, and if you haven’t, if you haven’t done it lately, it is, it is excellent for this particular time. I highly recommend it, ‘cause, you know, it’s got that ensemble cast, and it’s like, all those different love story plots, so, like, everybody’s coming together, and, like, it just kind of echoes the feeling that I have right now where I see all these people supporting one another and these networks of community and, yeah, and it’s funny, so if you haven’t watched it lately, this, this is the time. The, a pandemic is the time.

Sarah: It really is. It really, these, the –

Shana: I love finding someone else who loves this movie! [Laughs]

Sarah: It is, it is the perfect, it is, it is, and it’s a completely fantastical version of New York.

Shana: Oh yeah.

Sarah: Like, utter nonsense New York.

Shana: And it’s totally beautiful and magical –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Shana: – and there’s no reality –

Sarah: And clean.

Shana: – there’s no reality. Oh, and clean! And people just, like, hang out, like, chatting all the time? Well, that part is actually kind of realistic. But –

Sarah: Yes. I completely agree now is a perfect time for that movie. And it’s, and it, you don’t have to do much work. The movie will do all of the silly work for you?

Shana: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: It’s like, I’m here to be charming to the twelfth degree, and you’re, I’m just like, okay!

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: I’m here for this!

Shana: Be charmed.

Sarah: And your accent is terrible. I will be charmed by you. Especially this random butcher in a rowboat.

Shana: [Laughs] I know! He’s, like, fishing, but he doesn’t actually catch fish, and then he shows up.

Sarah: Yeah, like, I’ll just be charmed by this random butcher in a rowboat, and he doesn’t know how he got there.

Shana: Uh-huh, and he’s just, like, great, ‘cause he’s this, like, cuddly –

Sarah: Yeah!

Shana: – you know, kind of cinnamon roll. He’s not really the hero; it’s obvious they’re a terrible match, but, you know, you’re rooting for them to figure out their lives. And he loves jazz –

Sarah: And –

Shana: – oh my gosh. Leo’s so cute.

Sarah: [Sighs] And, and he’s just like, of course this beautiful, blonde woman with a weird accent is like, let’s get married, and he’s like, sure, why not?

Shana: That’s not, that’s not strange! Like, no!

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: I’ll just take her back to the butcher’s shop; it’ll be fine!

Shana: Uh-huh! Where she will use her magical, psychic powers in order to help find the perfect cuts of meat for everyone who comes into the store!

Sarah: Yes! ‘Cause that’s what you need!

Shana: Right.

Sarah: Are you a vegetarian?

Shana: [Laughs] No!

Sarah: Was going to say, ‘cause, like, unless someone’s a vegetarian, that sounds really great. Like, I need someone to match me mythically with pork chops.

Shana: Right? And there’s all those magic moments in the movie where someone comes in and they’re, like, having a dinner party emergency: I need lots of veal chops right now, and the whole time she’s just been chopping them, and they’re all wrapped, and here you go! I’ve solved your meat emergency. [Laughs]

Sarah: Right?

Shana: It’s like a cheese emergency, but for meat.

Sarah: Exactly! And, and she wears the shoes that she thinks were a dollar fifty?

Shana: Oh, right! [Laughs]

Sarah: Those are my, yeah, I just, I love, I love it, and, and this woman’s like, you’re working in them. Like – and they still, and they’re clean! Like, that’s how amazing this movie is. This woman –

Shana: They’re, they’re blindingly white. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, they’re blindingly white slipper-style heels. Like, there’s a lot of fabric –

Shana: Uh-huh.

Sarah: – and there’s lots of little gewgaws on them, and she’s –

Shana: Uh-huh.

Sarah: – wearing them in a booker, butcher’s shop, and they’re pristine. That’s the kind of movie we’re dealing with here.

Shana: Yeah, I think she actually is pristine the whole movie. I’m pretty sure she’s wearing her, like, little, like, gingham print, like, girlish outfit, and, like, blood never touches anything. Like, she keeps –

Sarah: No!

Shana: – unwrapping and seductively wrapping her little, like, white apron, but she doesn’t actually need it? [Laughs]

Sarah: No! And I mean, I can’t, I can’t even drink water without spilling it on my boobs.

Shana: [Laughs] That’s what boobs are for!

Sarah: Like, they, apparently! They’re like an apron –

Shana: They just collect –

Sarah: – for my whole face.

Shana: – collect everything and that’s –

Sarah: Yeah!

Shana: – that’s what I think! [Laughs]

Sarah: I agree with you. Oh my gosh. [Laughs] I love this so much!

Shana: So anyway –

Sarah: So in addition to The Butcher’s Wife –

Shana: I have actually been reading books, so I guess I could talk about them. [Laughs] Yeah, so I decided to reread The Duchess War –

Sarah: Oh, good choice!

Shana: – So, and –

Sarah: Oh, good choices!

Shana: – definitely recommend. I think, actually, the whole Brothers Sinister series is great, and it’s perfect because I’ve gone through a couple periods in my life where I just got over historical romances and went through this fast and felt like I hated them, and the last one, it was years ago, but the, this book, The Duchess War, that was the book that got me out of that slump and, like, took me into my current reality of feeling happy about historical romances again. So I think it just, like, it’s a powerful book for me. [Laughs] And, but yeah, the whole series. I’ve actually, so I finished that. I’m rereading the last book in the series now, Talk Sweetly to Me, which is like a shorter novella length, I think, and it’s so adorable, and, like, I think those are my favorites, actually, the first and the last? And the ones I remember the best, but I like, I remember liking the whole series. I think it’s just, it’s great. I mean, Courtney Milan in general just does, like, smart, kind of misunderstood characters really well, and she’s got that, that, like, great banter and witty dialogue and smart women and, and men who like to get into trouble, which is kind of my weakness, and there’s lots of, like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: – social constraints and finding a way through to, like, make the world better, and peace and justice for all! It’s pretty adorable.

Sarah: I also love the cover of that book. I don’t usually, like –

Shana: Mmm.

Sarah: – gravitate towards books because of the cover, because for me the, the cover and the inside are so disconnected in process and how they’re developed that I just sort of don’t, they don’t really factor into my decision to read a book, but the, the expression of friendliness on the model’s face in Talk Sweetly to Me, the way she just, the way she’s looking at the reader, she has her hand on her face –

Shana: Ohhh.

Sarah: – she has her hand on her face, she has this really gentle smile, and I’m like –

Shana: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – I, I wanted to read that book just because she looked so friendly?

Shana: Mm, yeah! Yeah, it does actually, I think it’s a really great cover.

Sarah: It’s wonderful!

Shana: And, and it actually, like, it fits the character, you know? Because she’s –

Sarah: Yes!

Shana: – like, a mathematician, when she’s like a computer in that Hidden, Hidden Figures? Is that the movie?

Sarah: Yes.

Shana: Yep – kind of style, and so she’s got this, like, brilliant, distracted kind of thing. She’s like no, no-nonsense; she’s focused on her work; she’s, like, middle class and not really up for the antics of the super radical feminist adorable writer who wants her. But she’s just got this, like, inherent sweetness? I feel like that’s actually true of, what’s her name, Minnie in The Duchess War too. Like, just, like, so giving; like, this strong sense of responsibility for other people; just, like, so warm and friendly at the same time that, like, super talented in this, like, intellectual way? And I, I remember, I don’t know if it was around the time it came out, but I remember reading a blog post from Courtney Milan about how hard it was to make the cover for Talk Sweetly to Me, because –

Sarah: Yes.

Shana: – she used stock models – do you remember that? – and –

Sarah: Yes! Oh yeah!

Shana: – and so few Black stock models? So she just, like, couldn’t find one that would work, that she could then, like, turn into the cover. I think it was like, she was using wedding dress models or something.

Sarah: Yes. Yes, she –

Shana: Right?

Sarah: – was, she does a lot of her own cover work, or, or initially did, and I know that she uses wedding dress pictures, because the, the, the volume of fabric in the gown can be the backdrop –

Shana: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – for the title, and you don’t really have to do all that much to it, but finding women of color in wedding gowns photographed the same way that white models are was very difficult for her. I remember –

Shana: Yeah.

Sarah: – her showing some samples and how dreadful some of the stock images were.

Shana: [Laughs] Yeah, I really, I, it made me think about how stock images are this surprising intervention point for, like, diversity, equity, and inclusion that I hadn’t really thought about?

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Shana: And, and I know there’s, like, different groups who are kind of working on that in different ways, like, not just ethnic diversity, but, like, size diversity too, and, like, you know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: – positive representations of Black people, but it does, it struck me, it was really memorable, and now I think about that every time I see the cover of this book, which apparently is whenever I’m having a bad week and need, need to reread it!

[Laughter]

Sarah: My husband’s cousin, his ex-wife is a stock cover model for some stock images.

Shana: [Gasps] No, really? [Laughs]

Sarah: Actually, a stock cover model, and then I, I heard that, and I looked at her, and I was like, of course you are! Yeah. Of course! Of course, that is a – she is the perfect –

Shana: Is she blonde?

Sarah: – she’s a lovely – yes! Surprise!

Shana: Uh-huh! [Laughs]

Sarah: She’s a lovely person, and she’s a stock model, and I was like, of course you are. Of course you are! That is like the, the –

[Laughter]

Sarah: It could be like a description, it could be a description of character, right? Like, she was a stock image model. Oh, okay, I know exactly what she looks like! We’re good, thanks.

Shana: Actually, that would be a really interesting romance. Like, a stock image model –

Sarah: Wouldn’t it?

Shana: – but, like, wasn’t anything like the personalities you would expect and was, like, really –

Sarah: But you look so familiar! Have I seen you before? Maybe?

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, for sure. Once upon a time, ages ago on Twitter, someone in my, in my replies, I was ranting about – you ever get that call from Rachel from Cardholder Services? Hi! It’s Rachel from Cardholder Services! Don’t hang up! I was – and it’s either Rachel or Emily, or it’s like some randomly bland-voiced person who’s basically scamming you –

Shana: Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and someone was like, imagine the, the voice actor who had to do that. And she’s –

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: – she’s the most hated woman in the world, and everyone knows her voice, and she’s having trouble finding love, and I feel like her and the stock image model could be a series.

Shana: [Laughs] I love that idea. And, like, there would need to be maybe some sort of like, mmm, like, path to, like, recovery that would happen and, like, personal transformation of – Rachel would realize that, you know, maybe it wasn’t worth the money to do this, or –

Sarah: Yes!

Shana: And, like –

Sarah: And she has inside information to take ‘em down!

Shana: Oh yeah, how will I give back to the world, and –

Sarah: The stock model can realize that she’s part of a larger machine that is limiting representation of what people look like and, and, and –

Shana: Uh-huh.

Sarah: – you know, we can do better, and we can – and she could be, like, start bringing in other models! Oh yeah.

Shana: Yeah, she could use her powers, like, for good, you know, and, like, to show that, like, there’s actually a market for other types of models out there, and then maybe she would dye her hair, like, black? I, I feel like this could be fun. ‘Cause she, she would be on the run from, like, the conglomerate that was after her because of her efforts, so she would need to totally change her look, and then she’d discover that she kind of like, liked having tattoos, even if it meant she could no longer do her career as a stock model.

Sarah: Yeah! I mean, there’s so, so much, so much to unpack in what we accept as the narrow definition of female customer.

Shana: Mm, right?

Sarah: Right. Like –

Shana: And what speaks –

Sarah: – no longer the female customer.

Shana: – as, like, generic to us, enough that, like, the maximum number of people will buy it.

Sarah: Yeah. Yep, not too big, not too small, not too –

Shana: It’s like, you know, you need to, to paint your house gray when you’re trying to sell it, you know, because –

Sarah: Oh my gosh.

Shana: – you want to not make it too, too startling for folks. You want the maximum number of people to see themselves in it.

Sarah: Yep.

Shana: That’s pretty much what stock models are. They’re like gray paint. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes! I have lived in a house that was staged. When we sold our house and moved to, to Maryland, when I lived in a house that was staged, it was like living with, with people who I never saw who were very scary.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: It became, everything matched? They, they, they put their mugs on a tray and left the tray and the mugs on the kitchen counter, and, like, and, and, like, I would have to set it up before a showing, ‘cause I work from home, so I would, like, go upstairs and, like, make the beds with these weird, matchy-matchy bedspreads and, like, hide all evidence of other, like –

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: – humans who actually live there, and then make my way backwards out of the house and, like, put the mug tray on the counter in a specific way and then, you know, make sure the mugs were turned a certain way. Who leaves empty mugs on a tray in the middle of the counter? Like, did I just, like, up and – I –

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: – it looked like aliens were in my house, and I think what actually sold my house is, before the last open house, I boiled, I simmered cloves and –

Shana: Ohhh yeah!

Sarah: – cinnamon and some orange peel, and I made, like, sell-my-house fragrant tea?

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: And then I had, we had –

Shana: I’ve heard that works.

Sarah: – we had, like, a, an offer, so when they came back for a second look, I did it again?

Shana: Ahhh! They’re like, this house smells delicious!

Sarah: Forget the matchy-matchy mugs and the chevron; it was the tea that did it.

Shana: [Laughs] I’m going to remember this next time, so when eventually, I guess, we have to sell this house and –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Shana: – I’m dealing with a real estate agent desperately trying to get me to stage it. Going to say, how ‘bout I just bake some cookies? I’d be doing that anyway!

Sarah: Exactly! Would you like some cheese?

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: Leave some for them. You’ll still have some! Lots of cheese!

Shana: [Laughs] Who doesn’t want to buy a house with, surrounded by cheese? 

Sarah: Well, you’ve got more cheese coming from this subscription! You’re going to have to just start handing it out, right?

Shana: Well, this is –

Sarah: Wait. If Halloween isn’t canceled, you’re set.

Shana: [Laughs] Oh, sadly, this is my very last month. It was only a three-month subscription.

Sarah: Ohhh!

Shana: I know! It’s an end of an era. I mean –

Sarah: You could have been the Cheese Fairy for the whole street!

Shana: I could have been! [Laughs] Oh, maybe if I ask nicely my mom will, will do it again for my birthday; that’s in June. First you like The Butcher’s Wife, the best rom-, rom-com ever, and then we’re almost birthday twins. Yep.

Sarah: Clearly, clearly we were meant to have this conversation.

Shana: Yeah, I love, I love having a June birthday; it’s – but anyway –

Sarah: So what other books do you want to recommend?

Shana: I do have other books. So those are the ones I’m reading right now, and then I have a couple on my list to read. One is Knit One, Girl Two. I should say, to reread. So – [laughs] – I read all of these books before, and I don’t actually usually reread books. While I will rewatch movies over and over and over again, but usually I don’t reread them, but these are desperate times, and I think Knit One, Girl Two is going to be really good. Like, I read the first chapter just to remind myself of the tone, and it’s just, like, so sweet and cute and with two women, and they’re both artistic –

Sarah: Aw!

Shana: – and it’s really low-conflict, and they just like each other, and they both are into the same fandoms, and then they fall in love, and they eat lots of delicious things, and, like, nothing bad happens. And one of them is fat, which I’m always excited about, and super-confident and, like, not a, there’s no, like, self-esteem issues, which are totally real, but are, like, not actually comforting to read? [Laughs] Is not in the book. Like, they love each other’s bodies; like, one – oh, and one is a yarn dyer, and I’ve gotten really into knitting! I don’t know if I told you that, but I, I took a knitting –

Sarah: Oh, lovely!

Shana: Yeah, I took a knitting class in January. Excellent timing! [Laughs]

Sarah: You made good choices!

Shana: I could not be happier. What would I have done? I bought so much yarn in anticipation of maybe the self-quarantine happening, which then it did, and what would I have done if I didn’t have, like, yarn and, like, a basic ability to turn it into cute things? So, so yeah. It’s all about, like, knitting and painting, and it’s just super adorable and sweet. So I recommend it.

Sarah: I love that! And that’s a perfect book for you.

Shana: Oh yeah, it is! It really has everything I like! Like women being creative, like not a lot of conflict, yet, like, it is important that it has enough of, like, a story that feels engaging? Because I can’t actually read really, really, like, zero conflict, super-low-conflict books when I’m stressed or worried. I don’t know about you, but just, like, they just don’t – it’s kind of like what you were saying before: they don’t catch my attention, and I get annoyed with them –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: – because their lives seem too easy? [Laughs] My life isn’t. Like, I need, like, I need enough, like, conflict and trouble to feel, like, engaged, but, like, not so much that I’m actually worried about anyone, like, dying or something terrible happening. [Laughs] It’s that, like, sweet spot in between. So hopefully that, this will hit that.

And then the other one I recommend is The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet by Becky Chambers, which I definitely feel like is, like, such good worldbuilding and, like, such this positive vision for the future. It’s like a sci-fi book that feels kind of like a cozy mystery, and, I don’t know, everybody’s, like, not miserable? [Laughs] And yet –

Sarah: Aw!

Shana: – like, they’re trying to fix things and make the world even better, and there’s, like, chosen family, and the heroine is running away from her not-great bio family, which is a trope that I always love in anything, but particularly sci-fi. Polaris Rising is kind of similar. It’s, actually, I think it might basically be, like, very similar to Polaris Rising, but, like, happier. [Laughs]

Sarah: So what wishes do you have to send out into the world today?

Shana: I think I’d just like to wish everyone all of their favorite snacks – [laughs] – since I would –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Shana: – I would say, like, I’d like to wish cheese for everyone, but maybe cheese isn’t everyone’s thing.

[Laughter]

Shana: So I want everyone to feel well-nourished in whatever way – like, I think ideally everybody should get a box today of whatever they would most love to receive and eat. [Laughs]

Sarah: Aww!

Shana: So that’s kind of what I’m hoping, and just that, yeah, people are kind to one another and, and ask for help when they need it. I’m feeling pretty loved and supported by all the, the folks in my chosen family lately, and I hope that everybody else knows that they can ask for help, and this is the time we will actually probably get it.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. If you would like to share your recommendations with us, we would love to hear them. You can come and chat with us in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, which, incidentally, is where I will put all of the links to the books and things we talked about in this episode. Or you can email me at sbjpodcast@gmail.com. We love to hear from you, and I would love to know what’s getting you through right now.

Thank you again to our Patreon community for supporting the show. I can’t tell you how much your support means to me. If you’d like to have a look at our Patreon, it’s patreon.com/SmartBitches.

And of course I end every episode with a bad joke, and this one is so bad. [Laughs] I’m really happy about this one? I mean, I like them all, which is why I pick them, but this one is just making my day. [Clears throat]

Why should you knock on the refrigerator door before opening it?

Why should you knock on the refrigerator door before opening it?

In case there’s a salad dressing.

[Laughs] It’s so stupid! I hope that amuses you as much as I, as it amuses me! Oh, it’s so dumb, I love it!

On behalf of all of us to all of you, we are wishing you solace and comfort and as much chill and peace as possible, and we hope that everything that you’re reading and watching and doing is nourishing and comforting to you.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[merry music]