276. An Interview With RWA President Elect HelenKay Dimon

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there, and welcome to episode number 276 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. With me today is Romance Writers of America president-elect HelenKay Dimon. This week, we are having a long conversation; I hope you enjoy that. We’re going to talk about what Romance Writers of America is, what it does, and what it means to be on the board, and what it means to be president-elect. It’s not a small job. We also discuss changes in recent years and what the goals of the organization are and have been. We also discuss some of the more problematic books that have been RITA finalists over the past few years, and we, of course, talk about what she’s writing and reading and being influenced by on Twitter and Facebook in terms of, mm, a few too many book purchases. I’m sure that you can relate, like I do.

We had a few connectivity problems during recording, so there’s a bit of a change in audio about twenty minutes in. I have done some work on it, but I offer humble apologies on the unevenness. My feline audio engineer Orville says that it’s entirely my fault and has nothing to do with him, so I take full responsibility, even though he’s trying to flick his tail at the microphone right now.

Now if you have questions, or you want to know more, or you have some ideas, or you want to just ask some questions about Romance Writers of America, you can email me and talk to me about it, ‘cause I love hearing from you, ‘cause you’re awesome! You can email me at [email protected], and you can record a voice memo and email it to me there if you’d like, if you’d like to talk to me through sound, which is cool. You’re going to sound great. Don’t be nervous; it’s a great idea.

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Now it’s very likely that you are traveling this month, and, well, I think a lot of us are, so I have this idea: you should take some audiobooks with you. Now you may have heard about this offer in other places, but just for you I have a link to support the show; Audible has a special deal for you. Ready? Thirty-day free trial, free audiobook download for new subscribers. The affiliate link is audibletrial.com/SmartPodcast. You’ll receive a free audiobook if you are a new subscriber with your thirty-day free trial. I would recommend, for your traveling needs, one of the Call of Crows series by Shelly Laurenston, which I’ve listened to several times, or if you like historicals, one of the historical romances by Laura Kinsale that are all narrated by Nicholas Boulton. That is a whole lot of pleasure for your eardrums. You get several hours of storytelling to keep you walking and driving and flying, however you are traveling this month. Go to audibletrial.com/SmartPodcast to sign up. That’s audibletrial.com/SmartPodcast. Through that affiliate link, you get a free audiobook, a thirty-day trial of Audible, and you’re helping us grow, so thank you very much.

The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. I’m sure you know what album this is; it is my annual December favorite. I will have information at the end of the episode with links to buy all of this awesome music, and of course I will have links to all of the books and other books and more books that we talk about, including several that I’m pretty sure you’re going to read. And as you know, at the end of the episode I have a terrible joke, and this week’s is really fantastic.

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So, speaking of podcasts, let’s do one right now. Sound good? All right, on with the interview.

[music]

HelenKay Dimon: I am HelenKay Dimon, and I am president-elect of the Romance Writers of America.

Sarah: Well, fabulous! Okay, so obvious, easy question: for, for readers or writers who may not be familiar, what exactly is RWA? And I feel dumb asking that, ‘cause I’ve been a member for a really long time, but it’s better when the president-elect explains what RWA is.

HelenKay: [Laughs] Yeah, and, and, and I’m the person who should kind of know, one of the people who should kind of know. You know, Romance Writers of America is the trade association for, needless to say, the romance writers of America, and we are a group that serves both unpublished and published romance authors, and the idea of, behind RWA is that we provide education, advocacy on behalf of romance writers and opportunities for networking and information, and we do that through a national conference; we do it through RWA University, which is a series of online classes; and we have chapters across the United States in areas where people can meet together and have workshops, have the networking, have all of that on a much more local level, and the national RWA fosters that and helps to kind of put the guidelines together for that and help chapters as much as we can.

Sarah: So you probably came into RWA through your local chapter; is that right?

HelenKay: I actually didn’t. At the time I was living in Washington, DC, and that, it has a very strong local chapter, RWR, the Washington Romance Writers. I was started out as somebody who was kind of a hobbyist?

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

HelenKay: I, you know, I wasn’t sure if I could write a book. I was basically joining RWA to get some sense of kind of how do you do it; where do you go from here? I didn’t know anybody at the time who was a writer, which is funny because now I feel like I know only people who write books?

[Laughter]

HelenKay: It’s such a bizarre switch in ten years. But, so for me, I actually joined on the national level first, which is different from most people. I joined on the national level first and went to a national conference just to see. Then I joined my local chapter. I think most people, how they come to it is they join through a local chapter. They meet people, other people who are writing and interested in the same things they are; they learn about craft. They see that this is something they want to do, and then they go from there. And how it works is, if you are a member of the local chapter, you must also be a member of RWA national.

Sarah: Right. So with your involvement with RWA – well, actually, let me, let me back up. So how many books have you written now? ‘Cause I’ve interviewed you a couple of times, and the number is definitely in the digit, double digits.

HelenKay: Yes, and it’s, you know, it’s funny, because for a long time I was saying, it’s twenty, and my agent said to me, I think at the end of last year, she’s like, it’s, like, fifty, but if you want to keep saying fifty –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: – you go ahead and do it. I’m like, okay, fifty! Okay, fifty is the new number! [Laughs]

Sarah: Fifty is the new twenty.

HelenKay: I like everything about that statement, by the way. Yes, yes.

Sarah: Right? Totally. So fifty-plus books.

HelenKay: Yes. Yes.

Sarah: And in the meantime, you’ve been on the board for RWA for a couple of years now, is that right?

HelenKay: Yes, I served two years as a director-at-large – I’m sorry, four years as a director-at-large at two different, so, for two-year terms. And now I’m the president-elect, so I’ll be the president-elect this year under Dee Davis, and then –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – who’s president – and then next year I become president. So basically, when the organization votes for president-elect, we kind of also vote for president, ‘cause you’re stuck with me, because I automatically become president.

Sarah: Right. And that preserves continuity as the board makes changes that go past one board’s term –

HelenKay: Exactly –

Sarah: – is that right?

HelenKay: – exactly. In order to run for, in order to be president, there are a different, there’s a different set of criteria than there are, than there is for a director, and the idea is that you want somebody who knows how the board works, understands how RWA works, and can see kind of what the long-term plan has been and how it needs to be adjusted and how we can implement it. You know, I, I was a, I was the president of my local chapter – I’m now in San Diego – before I was on the national board, and it’s a very different focus when you’re in a local chapter versus the national chapter, right. Local chapter, you’re worried about your local chapter and everybody in it, and how can we, how can we make, you know, these monthly presentations relevant for everybody and keep our numbers up and all that kind of stuff. When you switch to the national board, it’s a very different thing. You’re for the entire organization, and that’s ten thousand members, which is basically ten thousand different careers, so it’s a, it’s a different mindset, and I think it takes a while. I know my first board meeting, it, it was, it was like the Wild West. I mean, they were talking, and I think at one point I said, I understand all the words you’re saying, but when you put them together –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: – what are we even talking about? Like, yeah, you know, it’s just, it was at a level that I didn’t, I didn’t even comprehend until I got on the board? It was at a level they were working on that it was, like, so far ahead of where I was. It takes for a while for you to get, kind of get your legs and feel comfortable, and there’s a huge amount of history. You know, like, something like, you know, we have the, the RITA awards, which are our published author, published book awards. I mean, that has been refined and tinkered with and changed for, you know, what feels like decades now, and there’s a reason that it’s changed every year, and there’s a place that it’s trying to get, but if, if you –

Sarah: Right.

HelenKay: – haven’t been on the board, you don’t understand what the history, what, like, what has worked and what hasn’t worked, and why it has worked or hasn’t worked, and what we think might work for the future. You, you kind of need that longevity to kind of get that bigger picture.

Sarah: Right. I do have a number of questions about the RITAs, which I know you expected.

HelenKay: Yay. [Laughs]

Sarah: But I wanted –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: Don’t worry; I’m –

[Laughter]

Sarah: I, I understand the process.

HelenKay: It’s, it’s one of those things every, any board member listening to the podcast when you say RITA will internally have this groan, just because it’s such a massive –

Sarah: It’s fraught.

HelenKay: Yes! Yes, and it –

Sarah: It’s very fraught.

HelenKay: You’re never going to make everybody happy ever, and it, so it’s a very frustrating thing, yes.

Sarah: Nope. Nope. Not ever.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, first of all, I have no dog in this fight, so you don’t have to make me happy –

HelenKay: Yeah, no! [Laughs]

Sarah: – but I do have a question. I do have, I do want to go back to something you said earlier about how RWA is a trade organization, and when you talk about the board operating on a national level and looking at ten thousand different careers, what does it mean specifically – and I’m trying to explain this for people who will be listening who aren’t necessarily career-focused writers and are really interested in readers – you know, as a, as a readership, we hear a lot about what RWA does or isn’t doing or did wrong or did right – and more of the former than the latter a lot of the times, depending on what day you’re on Twitter – but what does it mean specifically for you to be the president-elect of a trade organization, and what does a trade organization do to help all of these careers? Like, what are some of the things, aside from the RITA, that you are focusing on?

HelenKay: Right, and I think, you know, I, I specifically said trade association because I wanted to be clear about that. I think sometimes people think we’re a charity or we’re, like, some sort of special nonprofit. We’re, we’re a trade organization, like the real estate, you know, folks of America, right? We, we are, we are focused on RWA, the romance writers of America, and how we, as a trade organization, can influence different things in publishing. Like, on behalf of our members years ago – and then there, this is a touchy subject, but years ago – I wasn’t on the board yet; it was about a year before I got on – you know, a major publisher decided to get into the, the business of, basically, they would be paid to put out books? Yeah.

Sarah: Oh, I remember that. I feel so old now. Just now, I just feel this crushing oldness.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, oh, God, I remember the details. And I don’t remember what I was wearing yesterday, and I mix up my kids’ names, and I don’t know what year it is, but I remember this story! Oh, man. Anyway, please continue. I’m going to marinate in my oldness over here. [Laughs] We’ve been around a long time.

HelenKay: We’ve been around a long time, for a very long time.

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: You know, and I don’t have to hide the ball here, ‘cause it’s, I mean, the whole point, we have nothing but respect for publishers or whatever publishing path our authors want to take, but part of our job is to advocate to make it as easy as possible and to make it as, you know, as kind of fair as we can, and this business ain’t fair, so whatever we can do to make it, make it better – in that case, Harlequin had made the decision to start this kind of paid-for publishing, and we saw it as a – and they were doing it under the Harlequin umbrella – we saw it both as kind of a violation of what they had promised RWA they would do for their authors, and also a very confusing way to do it, because it was under the Harlequin brand, which Harlequin has worked so hard to make so impressive and international, et cetera, and RWA was concerned that its members would be kind of, would be stuck in this position where they would be funneled into, you know, this part of Harlequin where they’d end up having to pay to be published, or they would confuse the, the two different Harlequins, a whole bunch of things, and RWA went to bat for its membership and thought that it was important that Harlequin know that this was a concern. That – really, it’s not just Harlequin – that any publisher know this was a concern for RWA that a publisher was doing this and why, and, you know, we were able to kind of help get it moved around. We frequently, there are issues, you know, unfortunately in these times. Publishers are closing house, and authors are left kind of stranded, and their books are kind of in this nowhere land. Sometimes a publisher will want an author to sign this whole new agreement to get their rights back, and that’s the kind of situation where RWA can step in, because what we’re acting is on behalf of the entire membership to say as, in the publishing environment, there’s a way to do this that is health-, that is good for our, our membership, our authors, and there’s a way that is not good, and we want to help to make it as smooth as possible. And it –

Sarah: And as a trade organization that’s also a nonprofit, if you are getting involved in contract renegotiations or you’re making a, a – there’s a word I’m looking for – if you’re giving advice or guidance, you have no profit in mind. You’re an impartial entity. Am I understanding that correctly?

HelenKay: Exactly, and we nev-, and it’s not a matter of let’s all band together and be against this publisher, because that actually is not okay. We can’t do that as a trade association, but what we can do is say, an action by a publishing professional, by somebody in this industry, is of such a concern that we want the message out to our members that this is a conc-, this is something of concern, and we want to work with that publisher or with whomever, you know, whatever professional is doing, whatever it is they’re doing, to try to change the practice so that it is reflective of what RWA stands for and also –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – that it is the best for all of our members. You know, it’s, again, like, I’m not singling out Harlequin; I have nothing but respect – I write for Harlequin – I have nothing but respect for Harlequin, but it was one of those things. Like, if this becomes an okay practice for traditional publishing houses in New York to basically do a pay-to-play, that’s an awful thing for the industry. So if we try to send out the message that it’s an awful thing for the industry and it’s an awful thing for our, because it’s an awful thing for our members, then it’s not just really singling out Harlequin; it’s saying to everybody, this is a, this is a way, moving forward, that is not good – any publisher that picks it up. Doesn’t matter if it’s, like, Suzy’s Press: this is a bad way to move forward. So the whole idea is to advocate, advocate on behalf of the membership to try to make this, what can be a very difficult, solo-feeling career, try to make –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – the playing field work as best we can with the, with kind of the, you know, in our policy manual there are some ways we want agents and publishers to act, and we have some power. Like, if it’s a viola-, if it’s an ethics violation or something like that, and we can use those, but we also have the power of advocacy and informing our members, and the more informed our members are, hopefully, the better decisions they’ll make, or they’ll make a decision at least having all the information. Like, we can all make bad decisions, we can all sign bad contracts, but we should know what we’re getting into before we do it.

Sarah: Right, and also, advocacy and, like you said earlier, with online courses and online educational elements, you’re – there are so many different ways to become a published author now, and there are so many changes that happen, like, on the half hour at this point, you are constantly trying to keep up with a changing industry that is both massively growing, exponentially, every day, but also, in some very key ways, shrinking. Like, how many major publishers –

HelenKay: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – are there now? Five? Four?

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Three and a half? It’s like, you know, all the banks are one: there’s J. P. Morgan Chase Merrill bu-bu-bu-buh? We’re going to have, like, one house, ‘cause they all keep combining and shifting. I also have this theory – and I’ve shared this theory with you before – that there are maybe six to nine total people in publishing?

HelenKay: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: The rest is done with mirrors, and then someone rings a bell on a schedule, and everyone gets up and switches places. So you’re working with this massive industry with this massive number of books that are published and an incredibly active and growing membership in an industry –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – that is still very small.

HelenKay: Well, and, yeah, and now –

Sarah: Piece of cake, right?

HelenKay: – and, and, and now we have  –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: – for ten thousand people doing it ten thousand different ways, right? It’s – yeah, exactly.

Sarah: Oh, you’re doing it wrong! [Laughs]

HelenKay: And it’s one of those things that publishing, it feels like, you know, if you look back in the history of publishing, it feels like it didn’t move an inch for two hundred years, right? And then –

Sarah: Yes!

HelenKay: – you know, however many years ago, seven years ago, whatever it was, six years ago, Amazon comes on, self-publishing changes, everything changes. Digital-first publishing hits big. You know, all of these things, changes, and now, you’re right, it’s like, it changes all the time, and while there are more options for authors to be published because they can take careers kind of much more into their own hands with – and I’m calling it self-publishing rather than independent publishing ‘cause I know some publishers consider themselves independent publishers and I’m trying not to get in the middle of that, so I’m just trying to use a term we can all kind of focus on, but –

Sarah: Hold on: are you a former recovering attorney?

HelenKay: [Laughs] Can you tell?

Sarah: Just a little bit.

[Laughter]

HelenKay: It’s like, it’s, you know, it’s one of those – I, I firmly believe whatever path you take is the right, you know, pick the right one for you. That is fantastic, but there’s more than one path now.

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: But I do worry sometimes that people are fully informed of all the choices?

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: Which is a concern to me, and then there’s the concern that, that you mentioned: not only are publishers shrinking, I think there is a concern, a, certainly a concern in 2017 among folks who have been traditionally published, that, like, are folks, are these publishing houses that have been publishing romance kind of getting out of the romance business a little bit, right? Like, it’s, they have a shrinking number of authors in print. The mass, that, you know, mass-market is in trouble. It’s not selling as well. There’s a lot of talk about, should I be moving to thrillers or women’s fiction or basically things that have some romance in them but aren’t romance is the central focus, like it has been.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: And those changes, so many of the changes that have happened in the industry are great. Self-publishing, new open door – these folks who were not getting a foot in the door are, like, hitting at the top of the New York Times. God, love ‘em! Good job! You know, making, like, a lot of money; bringing along, kind of, other authors with them because they’re, they’re in these groups and they talk about each others’ books and they promo each other; and these, these books are doing really well. At the same time, we have shrinking traditional print market, and you have the problems that you always have when you, when you’re looking at a distributor – let’s say Amazon – and, you know, you’re self-publishing, you’re, you’re self-publishing under their terms of service. You’re not self-publishing under a traditional publishing contract.

Sarah: No, you’ve agreed to terms of service, and the terms can change.

HelenKay: They can change, you know? It’s no, no different from me buying something at Radio Shack, right? Like – [laughs] –

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

HelenKay: – the terms –

Sarah: Radio Shack is not guaranteed to be around forever.

HelenKay: Exact-

Sarah: Those terms have changed.

HelenKay: Exactly! And it’s, and that’s a scary thing. I mean, that’s one of the ways RWA, that’s one of the things RWA is monitoring constantly, right? Like, it’s, it’s the, what is the impact of iBooks; Amazon; you know, Barnes and Noble; the digital piece that they can kind of move around, and there are people outside of romance and outside of Amazon and iBooks’ control who might be trying to game the system a little bit, and-

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – so we are trying to keep open communications, keep ourselves with as much information as possible to try to help our members.

Sarah: What’s a typical board meeting like? I mean, I know I’ve seen pictures of, of, of them, and they involve comforters and being wrapped in blankets –

HelenKay: [Laughs] Yes.

Sarah: – and, and that they’re really, really long.

HelenKay: They are. They are. The November board meeting is actually three days, because it’s when the new board members who have been elected come on, and the first day is basically, what does a board do? You know, it’s a, a full day of kind of what it means to be on the board, the responsibilities, looking at the, at the long-term planning and all of those kind of things.

Sarah: This is what you signed on for.

HelenKay: [Laughs] Exactly, exactly.

Sarah: Mwahahaha!

HelenKay: And then we, you know, lock the doors and keep them inside so they can’t run away, but –

Sarah: This is excellent plotting. I mean, clearly you write suspense; you know how this is done.

HelenKay: Exactly! I, I’m smart enough to lock the door. I know how to –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: Then the other two days, and the other meetings are two days long, are spent, we have an agenda which is honestly anywhere from seventy to, like, a hundred and five pages long. I’m, I wish I were kidding. And –

Sarah: Holy cow!

HelenKay: I, I know. Depending on which in-person meeting it is – we have in-person meetings in November, in March, and in July, the weekend before the conference starts, and then we have an, an additional phone, phone meeting in October – but at the in-person meetings it’s two days working on this agenda, and it’s kind of mix of policy that we need to adjust or add. You know, we’re looking at, always looking at things like the contest, the conference, how RWA is working – should the communities be functioning differently, should the board be functioning differently? – et cetera. We, depending on which board meeting it is, we are looking at things like picking speakers for the next conference or looking at proposals that the committees have put forward, like the academic grant committee will put forward a, these are the grants we think RWA should consider funding for this amount, and we vote on all of that. So it – and then  we have a section for new business and kind of strategic thinking, and there is always a, kind of a things nobody expected and we have to fix, look at, figure out how we’re going to handle section, and on top of the board meetings we actually have a, a board loop, like an email forum, which, depending on how active the industry is being – [laughs] – that, that’s –

Sarah: That was very diplomatic of you.

HelenKay: Thank you! I was, I was trying, I was trying to soft pedal that. [Laughs]

Sarah: How active those pain-in-the-ass people on those Goddamn blogs are. The – I mean, I know you’ve told me in the past that your email in the inbox from the, from the board loop can be hundreds and hundreds of messages by the time you wake up –

HelenKay: It, it –

Sarah: – ‘cause you’re on the west coast.

HelenKay: It can. I’m on the west coast, and if there is any –

Sarah: There’s an east coast kerfuffle.

HelenKay: – any, any kerfuffle anywhere, and, and, you know, I have to say, a lot of times the kerfuffles, they’re kind of outside of, you know, it’s like something’s happened at Amazon, or iBooks –

Sarah: Right.

HelenKay: – has made this decision, or this publisher has kind of gone sideways on this issue, or whatever it is, and, and nobody saw it coming, and then there are the issues that hit that really you don’t anticipate, like, you know, you, you think everything’s moving along fine, and then somebody says, wait, there’s this one thing RWA does that’s awful, and everybody looks at it, and we’re like, wow. Okay, let’s – we didn’t even know that, like, people were interpreting that piece of language that way. Let’s fix that piece of language. So there are days, yeah, on the west coast, where you can wake up, and if there is something pretty active on the PAN loop or –

Sarah: Ohhh, the PAN loop!

HelenKay: – on, on Facebook, you can imagine what the, what the, what the board loop looks like. But the, I mean, the reality is they’re, it’s always – that’s the piece I didn’t really understand until I got on the board, that it’s, there’s always something happening. Like, board members are put on task forces to kind of revamp this or revamp that, and it’s a constant work in process, like redo the bylaws, redo the policy manual, whatever it is, so in addition to the things that blow up unexpectedly, in addition to the yearly let’s look at the RITA con-, you know, contest and how do we make the conference better and all that kind of stuff, there’s the day-to-day stuff that you kind of don’t realize.

Sarah: Yes. Well, I am, I qualify as a PAN member.

HelenKay: Yes, you do!

Sarah: I got a little badge and everything. I was like, oh, my gosh! But I have never – [laughs] – I was very excited! – but I, I have never signed into the PAN loop, and I’ve never added myself, because as a reviewer, I think of myself as a reviewer first, and that’s an author space, and I try not to intrude on those spaces, so I’ve never been part of the PAN loop, but every now and again I can see the web version, and somebody’ll be like, girl, you need to see this!

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: And I’ll take a look and be like, whoa, that’s really impressive! And from a, from a person who runs a website full of discussion perspective, I cannot imagine the sheer volume of what must land in your inbox. And –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – it, it, it must be –

[Laughter]

Sarah: I mean, I, I, I have been through a kerfuffle or two in my time –

HelenKay: Yes, you have! [Laughs]

Sarah: – and it’s, it is not, it is not fun. It is not fun at all. [Laughs]

HelenKay: It’s because you have, kerfuffles by their, by their nature come out of, sometimes out of nowhere, right? Somebody will say that one thing, and you’re like, aw, man! [Laughs] And it –

Sarah: Did you have to say that? You had to say that, didn’t you?

HelenKay: And, and sometimes they do have to say it. I mean, I think, you know, PAN loop is interesting. It’s, you know, if you think of PAN and PRO, these were designations that were set up; they are Communities of Practice within RWA, for those of you who don’t know, and members do not have to join PRO and PAN. They are distinctions of, PAN is the Published Authors Network, and PRO is folks who have qualified because they have proven through the set of factors and requirements that they are a “career-focused romance author.”

Sarah: Right, that this is not a hobby –

HelenKay: Exactly.

Sarah: – or a side project, that this is a focused –

HelenKay: Exactly.

Sarah: – professional goal. Yep! Got it.

HelenKay: Exactly, and, and there –

Sarah: So are you trying to decide who is and isn’t an author then? That’s what you’re trying to decide, isn’t it?

HelenKay: Well, and, and –

Sarah: No, no, no! [Laughs]

HelenKay: Who wants that, right? Like, it, and –

Sarah: I don’t want that job! [Laughs]

HelenKay: And that, see, that’s, that’s the problem with the Communities of Practices: they were set up when there was one road into publishing, and –

Sarah: That was what I was just about to say.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: That is a holdover from when there was basically one step-by-step routine that you went through.

HelenKay: And, and it’s changed, and we are looking at the Communities of Pra-, like, at those forums –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – that the Communities of Practice use and trying to figure out, is there a better way to use them? Because, as you would imagine, a newly published person might ask a completely different type of question from, you know, like, Susan Elizabeth Phillips, who’s been published for twenty years, right? Like, their, what, their knowledge base might be different, so if you’re on the PAN loop and you’re following along, you can, you can get a lot of questions that feel like they may not be relevant to where you are in your career, but they are relevant to members of PAN. So it’s, it’s kind of, how do we, maybe we should look at those forums and figure out if there’s a way to kind of make them a little more relevant to the difference, a, a little more relevant to how publishing is now, and that’s something we’re looking at, and please, if you’re in RWA, do not panic and do the, you’re doing away with PAN. I didn’t say that. What I said was – [laughs] –

Sarah: I just want you to know that I’m going to edit your voice so that it says, like, a whole other thing.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I’m…getting rid of…PAN…and also…I hate…puppies!

HelenKay: [Laughs] I know. It’s, you know, it’s –

Sarah: And it’s funny, like, I’m joking –

HelenKay: I know.

Sarah: – but somebody might hear, somebody might hear that, and I’m, I’m like, geeze! Oh, my goodness!

HelenKay: Well, and it, it happens, because, you know, what happens on – I’m, I’m  going to – I think PAN loop does a lot of great things. I have seen folks ask what are kind of some more basic questions, and some PAN members who have been for a long time have given great answers. Like, they’ve come in, and they, and people ask questions, and people have questions about publishers and all of those kind of things. I think it’s great that there is a place that they could talk about it. The question is, should it, should the forums be set up in a slightly different way so that when you’re asking those questions you’re asking it to the people who know the answers versus the people who, like, I haven’t looked for an agent in ten years type of question. You know what I mean?

Sarah: Right. Yeah.

HelenKay: But what happens with all of these things, right, like, common-sense-wise, what happens with all of these things is, it is easy for misinformation to kind of –

Sarah: No!

HelenKay: – to kind of get spun up and kind of blown out of proportion and, like –

Sarah: What!?

HelenKay: – you know, it’s, we have made a decision as the board to try to be a little more proactive about that, because once the misinformation takes hold, that is all there is, and the, the best example of this – and I write romantic suspense, so I feel comfortable saying this – I mean, there was, a couple years ago, this idea that RWA was doing away with romantic suspense, and I would –

Sarah: Oh, I remember that.

HelenKay: – I would say, folks, I am on the board. There has not been –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: – one second of conversation about this, and Dee Davis writes romantic suspense; I write romantic suspense. You know, Alyssa Day was on at that time; she writes, like, romantic mystery. Like, like, I don’t know where this is coming from, but it came from somewhere, and it kind of exploded, and it became The Thing that people who wrote romantic suspense talked about, and, you know, so part of –

Sarah: Misinformation spreads faster than the correction –

HelenKay: Exactly –

Sarah: – always.

HelenKay: – exactly, but –

Sarah: You can’t unspread butter! It’s not fair!

HelenKay: You cannot! You cannot, but the good thing is, you know, there are a lot of people who wrote romantic suspense in RWA. Like, I was on, I wrote for Harlequin Intrigue at the time, and I was on a loop of authors, and I’m like, tell me, like, where is the perception coming from? And in part there was a, we don’t like the definition for romantic suspense used in the RITA, RITA contest –

Sarah: Huh!

HelenKay: – and it’s like, okay, that’s fixable! Like, that, like, the board can fix – I can’t fix the perception and this, this rumor that’s out there that we hate romantic suspense – which is not true; let me just say that –

Sarah: No, I hate romantic suspense. I’m just kidding.

[Laughter]

Sarah: No, you’re going to edit my voice: I hate romantic suspense…and puppies! [Laughs]

HelenKay: I, I totally am. I totally am. But we can fix, if, if that’s, if that piece is, like, we as the board interpreted that definition a certain way. If, if people who write romantic suspense not on the board are interpreting it a different way and therefore not entering the RITAs because they don’t think they qualify, let us fix that. I mean –

Sarah: That’s a fixable thing.

HelenKay: – that’s – exactly, and I try on Twitter to say every now and then, it’s like, you know, honestly, all you’ve got to do is email us. We – I mean, you know, I complained about the amount of emails, but the reality is, a lot –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: Yes, now I’ll speak out of the other side of my mouth. I – the reality is, a lot of these things get tinkered with and fixed – the YA definition in the RITAs, the romantic suspense definition in the RITAs – because members say, I read this word to mean X, and I think a lot of them do, and then we can work on it. We may not, twenty people sitting around a table trying to think of what is best for RWA as a whole and ten thousand members moving forward, may not see that piece, that word –

Sarah: Right.

HelenKay: – right? Like, we have to be, you know, we might need some help, and you can email us. You can email us; the RWA staff is unbelievably competent! I mean, this is a group of absolutely dedicated people who love romance, who want to get it right, and they, sometimes they’ll hear something and they’ll tell the board. I mean, so just let us know. You know, like, a couple, I think it was, like, last year, we started looking at the ethics code because so much has changed with, with social media, and, you know, you’re on Twitter, and people are, authors are talking about being doxed, and looked in the ethics code and it’s like, wow, there’s nothing in there that says one member can’t do it to – like, that’s not an ethics violation.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: It is now.

Sarah: Yay!

HelenKay: But that’s the kind of – yay! – that’s the kind of thing we can fix when we know about it, and the reality is, we don’t always see every piece, and that, I don’t think that’s a board failing.

Sarah: No.

HelenKay: I think that’s just human? Like, you can’t see everything when you’re looking at it one time –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – so member feedback does matter, and the thing that you really, people do really need to know is, we do read it. Like, we read the emails that come to us. If you let us share it, we share it with the board. If not, we will state a general concern. I mean, that is how a lot of stuff gets done, and that doesn’t mean if you write in what, what you say will happen.

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

HelenKay: The reality is a lot of times, like, people write in and say, this is what I think you should do with the RITA con-, contest or the Golden Heart contest, and the answer will be, we’ve looked at that nine times, and there’s no way to do it.

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: Like, that might be the answer; you’d be surprised how many times the answer is, believe it or not, we tried –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – and that didn’t work. But –

Sarah: That’s actually something I want to ask you about, actually.

HelenKay: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: There have been a number of really big changes by the board in the past few years. This year, the, the RITAs is all digital.

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: There were movements in the RWA conference schedule, which, by the way, except for the complete disorientation of thinking that the end of the RITAs ceremony was the end of the conference, and there were another two days to go –

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: That gave me such, that gave me such confusion, but I’m easily confused when it comes to things like time. I think so many of those changes were brilliant. Like, I think they are so interesting, and I’m curious if you can talk at all about what other things you guys are, are looking at. One of the things that has struck me as you’ve been talking in both segments of this recording is that you have said several times, make it more fair, level playing field, make this relevant, this is fixable, and those, and you know, if those are the watchwords of this, of, of your focus, that’s all good. [Laughs] Keep doing that! Because you, the board acknowledging how unfair some parts are is, I think, very important and, and essential to making the genre better. Even though I think in the past there’s been a lot of working at cross purposes, I also honestly believe that most of the people who are involved in the genre actually want it to be better.

HelenKay: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I, I think, you know, here’s – change is hard, right?

Sarah: What?! No!

HelenKay: [Laughs] I mean, I had the same reaction you did: the RITAs were over, and I, honestly, I went back, and I’m so programmed, I started, I got my suitcase out. I’m like-

Sarah: Right? Like, oh, it’s done and I’ve got all  this energy. I must’ve done really good conserving my energy at this conference, ‘cause I’m just feeling great!

HelenKay: I know; I’m like, whoops! Nope, that’s not right. And, you know, it’s not like, we made changes just because we think it’ll be fun to confuse ten thousand people. We –

Sarah: Oh, you just want those ten thousand email messages; don’t lie!

[Laughter]

HelenKay: It is, you know, I’ve explained it before, it’s a big ship, and it’s hard to turn, but –

Sarah: Oh, yes, it’s, it’s cornering the Queen Mary.

HelenKay: Exactly!

Sarah: Absolutely, and the same thing with change at publishing houses: they don’t just wake up and be like –

HelenKay: Exactly.

Sarah: – you know what? Let’s just close this line. I don’t feel like it today. Do you? Nah, fuck it; let’s just close it. Like, that’s a –

HelenKay: Exactly.

Sarah: – that’s a process.

HelenKay: Everything has, like, all of these things happening behind the scenes, and you think of, I mean, we’ve been talking about the RITAs going to digital for y-, the Golden Hearts have been digital for years. Other –

Sarah: Makes sense!

HelenKay: – other writing conferences, a lot of them are digital, like the thriller writers of America is digital, and the cost savings to RWA in switching the RITAs to digital is significant, and that cost savings lets us put that money somewhere else, and, you know, I’m, I’m going to just suggest that maybe this somewhere else might be our website, right? Like –

Sarah: What?!

HelenKay: [Laughs] You know, it’s like –

Sarah: Well, you, you – [huffs] –

HelenKay: I mean –

Sarah: I, I don’t even know what to do with myself right now.

HelenKay: [Laughs] You know, it –

Sarah: Honestly, when you guys announced that you were going all digital, I was like, are you going to move offices in Houston? Like, does that free up a couple of rooms?

HelenKay: You know, it, it is funny, because –

Sarah: [Laughs] Do you have to rent a trailer?

HelenKay: – the RWA building is really big, and part of the reason it was so big was it had to have these rooms for all these books, right? And it’s not just that; it’s staff time. Like, Carol Ritter spends I don’t even know how much time on –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – the whole staff does, but I mean, like, she, she spearheads a lot of it, so, you know, there, the RWA question of how can we bring more people from outside into the literacy signing, especially if we want outside-RWA buy-in to the romance community. Like, how do we – ?

Sarah: Got to move it to Saturday!

HelenKay: Exactly. How do we make RITAs – first of all, if people think they don’t have enough time to read seven books that they get to judge, how do you give ‘em a little more time? You make it digital so you don’t have to have two weeks for mailing and all. Right? Like, there, there are a whole bunch of considerations that go into those major changes, and you’re constantly looking at that, and when it comes to kind of what we’re doing for the future, we, we are looking at, you know, the, the website is a difficult thing because what you see on the outside is the public part, but there’s a whole administrative part underneath that runs the forums.

Sarah: The devil you say!

HelenKay: And –

Sarah: I, I know this very, very well.

HelenKay: Right? [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, yes, I sit, I’m sitting on a twelve-, almost thirteen-year-old database of multiple pieces of content for twelve-plus years. Yeah, I, yes. I’m hold-, you can’t see me, but I’m holding up a lighter –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – and just nodding my head like I’m having some moment of complete blissed-out understanding. Yes, it’s so hard! I know!

HelenKay: ‘Cause, you know, as a member, and I mean, I did this too, I’m like, what’s so hard? Make, make it more usable, make it more dynamic, but what’s so hard is the underneath piece is, like, built by two companies in the entire country. You know, I mean, it’s like this entire –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – like, that is a ship that’s hard to turn; it’s a very expensive ship to turn. So you have to –

Sarah: Oh, my Lord, yes. [Laughs]

HelenKay: – so you have to figure out, like, where’s that money coming from?

Sarah: Oh, my God.

HelenKay: So the RITA money helps us with the other stuff, et cetera, but, so for the future, we, we’re, we are looking at the website; we are looking at how to make the Communities of Practice kind of more usable. We’re always looking – always looking – at the RITA and Golden Heart conference, contests – how can we make –

Sarah: That’s what you need, actually.

HelenKay: Yes.

Sarah: You need a RITA conference. Just one conference all about the RITA. That’s –

HelenKay: Do you, do you want, do you want to see me resign? Because that will do it. That would –

[Laughter]

Sarah: We’re going to have this whole conversation, like, in one room with all ten thousand people.

HelenKay: We are constantly looking at the conference, both on a macro scale, kind of like how do we, we now have all these different interest people, people doing their careers different ways. How do, who do we bring in? What’s the kind of more in-depth workshops we can offer –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – et cetera, and also on a micro level. I mean, just, you know, we talked about fairness. The reality is this career isn’t fair, but, you know, part of what RWA has hoped to do is, especially in the last few years, is, how can we not even level the playing field, but how can we, like, help to get some people on the playing field, right? Like, because –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – you know, on a, on a micro level, you think of something as simple as, I know, we’ll have nineteen panels on diversity at the conference. Okay, those, that, that’s not helpful, really. What you need is – and this is kind of an understanding that has happened over time – what you need is to fill those panels with diverse authors who know what they’re, everybody who knows what they’re talking about, right? Like, like, you, you put people on panels that show that RWA, what the look of RWA is, and that it’s not all the same look. It is different people writing different things, and it’s much more dynamic than it used to be in some ways, because there are all of these different ways for people to get into publishing, and we, you know, we’ve tried to recognize – we have recognized – that it has not been a level playing field for all of our members for a very long time. And you can use whatever code word you want, diversity or whatever; really what it’s about is understanding that there are authors and that there are writers in our field who have not had the same opportunity to get a chance to put a foot in the door, and what we are trying to do with scholarships to the conference, we’ve set up a diversity committee that is kind of trying to help guide us in some ways to be more mindful, all of those are ways of just helping somebody try to get a foot in the door, right, and it’s not even a matter of, oh, look, now everything’s fair and equal, because it, it ain’t, and let’s be honest, it ain’t.

Sarah: No.

HelenKay: You know, this is, this is a matter of – and, you know, we haven’t even opened a door, but we’ve put a footstool at the window, you know, to try to help you jump in. Right, like it’s a, it’s a long process, and I do think we’re, I do think we’re moving, and we’re trying very hard, because the reality is, the more people we bring in to RWA who are looking at their publishing careers in different ways, from self-publishing to digital-first to traditional publishing, who have these new and inventive ideas, who are bringing in this kind of dynamic range of stories with, with characters that we maybe haven’t seen on, on covers very much, all of that makes RWA better. It makes it bigger; it makes it, it makes it –

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: – more poised to go into the future, and that has been a long haul, and it has not been a long haul because the board and the staff are reluctant. In fact, it’s, that’s the opposite. It’s, the staff has been like, tell us what to do, help. Like, we don’t know what we don’t know, and as a board member, you know, white girl from Amish country Pennsylvania, I don’t know what I don’t know. Right? Like, I, I sometimes need some help, some direction; like, give me some ideas, tell me how to help, you know, all of those kind of things, and I think what you’ve seen in the last – I can say while I’ve been on the board, this is my fifth year – I have seen all of those boards – I can’t speak beforehand, but I, I’m sure it was the same way – all of those boards want to get it right, and I think we’re getting a little bit better at getting closer to getting some things right, and when we don’t –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – hopefully we are listening and trying to kind of revise the way we’re doing things to get better. It’s not a perfect system, but for a lot of people it’s a really imperfect system, and one of our obligations, our responsibilities, I think, as an RWA board is to make that, that piece as, a little more fair.

Sarah: So I do want to ask you about some of the, some of the books that have been RITA –

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: – finalists that were, shall we say, problematic, and before I, I get into that, I also want to say, I have signed up to judge the RITAs this year.

HelenKay: Thank you!

Sarah: Dude, my pleasure! Send me all your Nazi romances; I am waiting.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: I am – send them to me; I have many pens, and it is game on. But as a, as an, as a former attorney, you also understand the, the appearance of impropriety?

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: So this year we’re not going to do the, the RITA Reader Challenge, because even though I am judging, and I do not edit or, edit all of the reviews to make sure that, like, they can go on the site, but Amanda, my assistant, manages the pro-, program. I don’t review them, but I don’t want it to appear that I have an influence on what the site is doing while also judging the RITAs, so we’re not going to do –

HelenKay: All right.

Sarah: – the RITA challenge. I actually asked RWA, and Carol Ritter was like, well, you don’t write the reviews, so it’s fine, and I’m like, appearance of impropriety being a thing –

HelenKay: Right, right.

Sarah: – I’m judging, but I’m not going to run the review program. Right now there are some authors who are like, oh, fuck, and then there’re some that are like, YES! Thank God!

[Laughter]

Sarah: But I want to talk about, I want to talk about some of the books that have become finalists that have been a little of a, of a problem –

HelenKay: yes.

Sarah: – for, for many, myself included, and up until recently, if I’m understanding correctly, I’m not, I am not fully fluent in the process of voting after the first round, but I know that in the first round, it’s, is it, each book has five judges, the top and bottom are thrown out, so effectively a book is a finalist ‘cause three people agreed that it was good? Is that right?

HelenKay: Correct, yes.

Sarah: Yeah, so I can see why problems happen.

HelenKay: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: I, I – [laughs] – I, I have to say, in the past few years, doing the RITA challenge, I’m like, all right, which one is it?

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Which one? Which one’s going to give me heartburn? Which one is going to give me the heartburn? Because even though, even though traffic is part of my business, I don’t relish upsetting and hurting people –

HelenKay: Right.

Sarah: – with, with, with books that are painful. Like, that’s, I don’t enjoy that. That’s, that’s not fun.

HelenKay: Right.

Sarah: So what are some of the things that you guys are doing to – excuse me, that was super gendered language; let me back my ass up.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: What are some things that y’all are doing –

HelenKay: Y’all.

Sarah: – y’all – are doing to help ameliorate that situation and prevent it from happening again?

HelenKay: Well, and let’s – and I’m going to back you up just a, just a little bit more.

Sarah: Please do! Please do, ‘cause I, I stand to be corrected. I am not on the board, so I don’t know the full story.

HelenKay: No, and I, I, I don’t even think – I think what happens is a lot of times when people talk about the RITA, they talk about books being nominated. Books aren’t nominated, right? Like, you didn’t say it –

Sarah: No, they’re finalists.

HelenKay: – you didn’t say it, but what happens is, authors submit their own work, and –

Sarah: Which is not the same as being nominated –

HelenKay: Right.

Sarah: – by an impartial third-, third-party body of people saying, oh, yeah, hot damn.

HelenKay: Exactly.

Sarah: Oooh, sexy Nazis.

HelenKay: Right. It’s not like a former Librarian of the Year was like, hey, let’s, let’s put up this book that has this awful thing in it. That’s not how this happens. People put up their work, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – I’m going to go back to my phrase that I used previously, which is, sometimes people don’t know what they don’t know. Right?

Sarah: Yep, yep.

HelenKay: And they don’t realize that, kind of, the biases they bring to their work, or how it could be offensive, or how it could be seen in a way that a large part of people are like, are, are you kidding me? Right, like, they can’t, you know, you can’t, folks can’t always see that; they don’t always know. So these books are not nominated; they are put in by the authors, and then what happens is, we have a limit of two thousand entries, and you have to submit five books, so basically, when Carol Ritter goes to use her cool computer program that assigns who judges these books, she’s got ten thousand books she needs to place. Think about that: ten thousand books.

Sarah: Oh, piece of cake!

HelenKay: So, yeah, no problem! Of course that’s always going to run smoothly. And what happens is, when you judge, as you know, you can check a box that says Not a romance, and you can check a box that says Wrong category. There isn’t a, a box for Are you kidding me?

Sarah: WTF?

[Laughter]

HelenKay: Right, there is no box for that. And –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: – I, I want to write that motion.

Sarah: The hell, question mark.

HelenKay: Motion to add box of What?!

[Laughter]

Sarah: All right, time out, everybody. We need a What?! box.

HelenKay: So, so that’s how this has worked, and what has happened is, the theory has been that this system of five judges kind of picked randomly through Carol using this computer process and folks opting out of, of, you know, you can opt out of two categories, and you can’t judge anything you’ve entered, right, that, that limits the pool even further, right, so you’ve got these books going out, and the theory has been that when you drop the lowest and highest, and it’s, it’s this, that the, that the process that weeds out books that are difficult is a process, right? Like, that these five people will know when they look at a book that it has something incredibly problematic in it, but again, we don’t know what we don’t know. That, the, the book we lovingly refer to as the Nazi book, I mean, that thing had gotten, like, starred reviews. It, you know what I mean?

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

HelenKay: A whole lot of people, the fact that, that three judges thought it was really well written, it’s not like those three judges were so out of line with anybody else who had ever looked at that book; that’s not the case.

Sarah: No, not at all, not at all.

HelenKay: You know, this really was a, we don’t know what we don’t know, and people bring in whatever biases they have in their thoughts, et cetera, and, and I’m not trying to single out that book. Unfortunately, it’s one that, that, that most people know. They don’t, they don’t remember the title, but they, they remember that there was a book that had this issue.

Sarah: And it’s interesting, because on one hand there have been more, more romances that I’ve seen marketed that are between Nazis and some marginalized person in World War II, but there’re also situations now where a problematic book gets starred reviews, and then people go to that publication and are like, oh, time out. We need to check the What the fuck box, and then they, they take it back.

HelenKay: Yes.

Sarah: They take it down. Like, even that’s what, this is three years ago? That’s just in three years, you have publications who are willing to be like, oh, well, time out. We didn’t know we didn’t know; we missed that giant curveball of poo. Let, let’s revisit. Like, that, that’s a change that is phenomenally jaw-dropping to me.

HelenKay: And it is a, I –

Sarah: And I’m really glad it happens, but I’m still like, wow!

HelenKay: Exactly. I think that’s the point, right? Like, it’s a good but painful process that, that we’re going through, where folks, I think, I’m hoping what’s happening is people are becoming a little more mindful of, of when things might be problematic. That is my hope, that they’re seeing that, but now think of RWA, and you’re the board. Like, my, the whether or not, what you do now that a book that’s problematic is a finalist, right? We’ve dropped the lowest –

Sarah: Yeah.

HelenKay: – and the highest. It has been scored however it’s scored, and frankly, the scores have to be fairly high for it to go on to be a finalist. I mean, it’s only the top, like, four percent in each category, it’s a pretty small amount, and there are minimums and maximums and all that kind of stuff, and so it’s hard to get through, and now the book is through. So a book is brought up that it’s problematic, and I get that it’s problematic, and we look at it, and we can see that it, that it might be problematic, but here’s the question: so then what do we do, right? Like, that’s the position we’re stuck in now. We have a system that sometimes these books get through, and then the question is, what do you do? I’m going to be honest: I do not want the board, whether I’m on it or not, to have power over what is quality and appropriate, right? Because you might like what this board would view as appropriate or not appropriate and say we’ve got take that out as a finalist, but there could be a board six years from now, seven years from now where you’re like, that board is going to think –

Sarah: Should not have a line-item veto.

HelenKay: Exactly. That board is going to think anything with LGBT in it is, should, is not appropriate and is going to take them out, right? Like, you have to – those are questions I don’t think we want to give to the people in power of RWA to make, to have a line item on that, so then the question is –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – if you don’t want the – right – if you don’t want –

Sarah:  to do –

HelenKay: – the board making quality and problematic decisions, then what you have to do is, I think you’ve got to go back to what we thought would fix it in the first place, which is the judging, right? The question is –

Sarah: Right.

HelenKay: – is there a different way to do the judging? Is there a, we add a What the hell is this box. Is there a, you know, Did not finish box? Is there a This should never be a finalist box? Is there something like that? And that is what we are looking at right now. Trying to figure out, not only because of the problematic books, but also because there, there have been complaints, certainly in recent years, that folks are getting books that they don’t believe they really are romances. Like, I got, you know, I, there, there are books out there where, like, the hero and heroine die on the last page. Is that a romance? Probably not. [Laughs] So –

Sarah: Nope! Sorry.

HelenKay: So, and there are questions that people do have about basic craft and quality. Again, the board shouldn’t be making those decisions; judges should be deciding in this contest whether or not it rises to the level of being a finalist. So what the board has the power to do, I think, is to look at the judging and say, how can we fix the judging? How can we move this around so that the judging system does what we all want it to do, which is have those books that really are the best in our romance genre rising to the finalist status and getting, and being voted on by that final panel, and so we are looking at that right now, and what happens, just so people know, we basically have a rule that the board cannot change the contest rules while the contest is underway, which means –

Sarah: Oh, come on!

HelenKay: I know.

Sarah: That’s, like, super fun!

HelenKay: [Laughs] Talk about conflict of interest, right?

Sarah: Just a, well, only books with the name of “Dimon…”

HelenKay: [Laughs] There we go! May final. I like that! Let’s see. Oh, yes.

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: So basically, the contest runs from, like, October, November through July, so –

Sarah: I signed up to judge in, like, mid, mid October.

HelenKay: Mid October, right? So –

Sarah: Knowing I was booking myself some reading in the spring. [Laughs]

HelenKay: Yes, you are. Get ready for that box. [Laughs] So –

Sarah: But it’s not a box! It’s just in my inbox, right?

HelenKay: Now it’s in your inbox. It’s going to be very different.

Sarah: My computer’s going to cry.

HelenKay: Aw.

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: But, it will, but you’ll, yes, it will. [Laughs] No question, but –

Sarah: But you know what, it’s actually not that different from my review submissions box. My computer’ll be like, oh, this? Pfft, ah, it’s no big deal.

HelenKay: Well, and honestly, a lot of people who got them in print wanted to read them in digital anyway, and would just –

Sarah: So they’d buy them anyway.

HelenKay: – they’d buy them anyway. I mean, I know there are people who, who don’t like that it’s moved. You know, they say, I’d prefer to read it, read it in print. It’s like, well, then you get to do what everybody has done for the last couple years who wanted to read it in digital. You can go out and buy another copy if you want to; it’s up to you. But –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: So we are looking at the RITA rules for a whole host of reasons. Like, how do we –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – how do we, you know, look at craft, problematic books? How do we help the judges so that the ones that are just clearly not RITA finalists, because, like, the writer has forgot, doesn’t know what a period is, you know, or how to use a quote, or something like that? How do we, how do we kind of ferret those out so it’s a little bit easier on the judges, et cetera? We are looking at that. We cannot vote on any change on that except in that July meeting. That is why at conference you always hear, here, here, they’ve made these three changes to the RITAs or no changes to the RITAs, or this definition has changed.

Sarah: Right.

HelenKay: It’s because it’s, that meeting right before conference is the only time –

Sarah: That’s happening.

HelenKay: But what we do is, like, we just had a board meeting in November, and we started talking about the RITA. Like, let’s have a long-term discussion on looking at the judging, looking at every part of the contest, and saying, what is working, what is not working, and now we’re, we’ll talk about that? [Laughs] Ad nauseam? And we’ll look at motions, and we’ll do all that kind of stuff, and then we’ll vote in July to the extent we’re going to make any changes. And it might, you never know, the answer sometimes is, it’s not the right time to make a change because we made this other big change in this – we need to see if that works first, and all of those kind of things.

Sarah: Right, it’s like anything with troubleshooting: change one thing at a time to make sure you know what you did that, that made the difference –

HelenKay: Absolutely.

Sarah: – is the thing that you changed. Yeah, it’s like troubleshooting a tech problem or code or whatever; you change one thing at a time to see what you can do to fix the issue.

HelenKay: Absolutely, and I think just in the meantime if, if the, the members can know that we are constantly assessing the RITAs and we really are in depth doing that right now, and also to keep in mind, you really don’t want a board, you don’t want me deciding –

Sarah: No.

HelenKay: – if your book is quality –

Sarah: No, you don’t want me deciding either.

HelenKay: You just, you just, I don’t want to make quality dec- – that’s not a word I’m comfortable with at all, but there’s a way to do it, and we’re trying to figure out that way.

Sarah: There’s also a very big difference between my saying, I did not enjoy this book, and here are –

HelenKay: Exactly.

Sarah: – five thousand words as to why, and saying, this book is terrible. Like, it takes a lot for me to be like, okay, this book is damaging, and we have a problem.

HelenKay: Exactly.

Sarah: Let me explain to you why this is damaging. That’s a rare thing. Usually it’s all subjective taste, and just since I joined the RWA, I think it was, seven-, fifteen or sixteen years ago? Maybe? I have a bad sense of time, but I remember I was living in Jersey City, and that was after 2000, so, yeah, you know, fifteen, sixteen years ago. I mean, even then, just the idea that what was erotic, you know –

HelenKay: Oh, right.

Sarah: – whether or not different sexual practices were going to be on the page was something that, that people were discussing at that time, so everything, everything changes. One of the reasons I signed up to judge is that I have this rule, as you know: no complaining –

HelenKay: Yes.

Sarah: – about something more than three times without doing something?

HelenKay: That’s a rule. I like that rule.

Sarah: And I, it’s why I self-published a romance.

[Laughter]

Sarah: ‘Cause I got tired of all the Christmas romances. I’m like, all right, Sarah, see you’re at three: you’ve got to do something now. Shut up or do something. What can members and authors who are members of the organization do to help support the, the organization and to, to say, you know, hey, that was great; do, do more of that? I think that, I know – I know, actually – I know for a fact that you hear a lot of negativity and that it is very much appreciated when someone goes, hey, nice job! Well done; that was cool! Like, good job on digital RITAs! That’s frigging rad, and the conference was awesome this year. What can members and authors who want to help do?

HelenKay: Well, I think, I think there are a couple things: first of all, the concerns do help. I mean, I’m, I, they really do. When people, when people have concerns, we want to know. If we –

Sarah: Right, of course!

HelenKay: – if something isn’t working, we need to know that. If, if, all of those kind of things. If – of course what happens is you hear the negative more than the positive. That’s just human nature.

Sarah: Of course!

HelenKay: If something works, you’re like, cool, it worked! And, you know, you don’t think, I should go write the board email.

Sarah: Good on ya!

HelenKay: Right? And we, we are mindful of, of that’s how it works. I, I think a lot of people have started volunteering, which I think is huge. We do have committees. They are, they tend to be populated, like, once a year, which is a little bit of a problem, ‘cause somebody will volunteer in March, and the thing’s not going to be populated till November, so there’s, like, not a whole lot we can do, and sometimes there are more people who volunteer than committee spaces we have, but I think part of what folks can do is they can get involved on the local level as well. Chapters need some assistance with their leadership, and a lot of times leadership for national board starts at a local chapter board, so sometimes getting that experience will help. I think –

Sarah: What, you mean it’s like actual politics?

HelenKay: I know, isn’t that incredible? [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, my gosh, I am just – you’ve got to stop with the truth bombs; I can’t handle this much shock.

HelenKay: It never ends!

Sarah: I know!

HelenKay: I think – and I say this because I need to do this as well – I think once folks are published, they become, sometimes, a little disconnected, certainly from the local chapters where, frankly, published members are really, really needed –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – because they help, like, with the, yeah, that’s actually not how publishing works kind of questions, and a lot of times they have info-, we have information as published folks that isn’t widely shared, but we share it among each other, that would be helpful for folks just starting out to know –

Sarah: Right.

HelenKay: – and you can get a lot of that. You know, right now it happens on Facebook and, you know, forums and all of those kind of things, but it, it, I think it really, a good place for that is on, on the chapter level. Also, I think one thing that folks can do is just sometimes take a deep breath, and I, I don’t mean to sound dismissive when I say that, but it is really easy, and I do it too, to read something and get all upset. Like, I’ve spent most of this year upset about something, right? [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

HelenKay: And sometimes I, I think if, if people under- – and this is why it is important that we get feedback – if they understand that, that there is this long-term strategic planning, there, we are looking constantly at all different aspects of RWA. I promise you, nobody is sitting on the board just saying, we don’t care if they like it or not. This is not a thing that happens. We do –

Sarah: And nobody is sitting on the board saying, everything’s fine; the status quo is great; we’re not changing anything; everything’s wonderful!

HelenKay: Exactly. I can’t –

Sarah: What are talking about? This is fine. The room’s burning down; this is fine.

HelenKay: I can’t even imagine that, and, and publishing is changing, and the romance genre –

Sarah: What?!

HelenKay: – is –

Sarah: Hourly.

HelenKay: Hourly. And the romance genre is, is changing, and I think we just all have to kind of do what we can to kind of share information, stay calm, not do the sky is falling, and, and feedback and volunteer. I, I just –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: You know, if, if you’re, if you’re upset about the way the RITAs have been judged, then you need to do what you’re doing: you need to judge the RITAs. Right? Like –

Sarah: That’s what I’m saying.

HelenKay: I mean –

Sarah: You see a book that even smells a slight bit like fascism, you just send it my way.

HelenKay: [Laughs] Right!

Sarah: I’m here for you guys! Send me your Nazis.

HelenKay: That’s okay; I’m waiting for, like, the day after this airs for how many people email me with the, yes, we need that What?! box in the rules.

[Laughter]

HelenKay: I just, I’m just, I’m just waiting.

Sarah: We need the What the actual hell is this book.

HelenKay: Yes, I’m, I’m waiting for that, and of course –

Sarah: What the whole entire hell? [Laughs]

HelenKay: And of course the author side of me is like, please don’t check that box for my book, please don’t check that box for my book.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I think it’s sort of like, I think it’s sort of like worrying if you’re a good person: if you’re worried about whether or not you’re, you’re book is a romance and you’re fluent in what a romance is –

HelenKay: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – then you’re going to, you’re going to be fine. I also think everyone, especially this year, has a deep rage and shallow triggers –

HelenKay: That’s very –

Sarah: – so that – everyone has a lot to be justifiably, painfully upset about in many different areas, and I think that more than ever, it’s really common for, including me – and I notice this most when I’m, like, really upset over something stupid like my dog did something. Like, my dog is an animal! He’s not doing this on purpose, but I can fully articulate exactly why I’m upset and all the reasons. I could give you a bulleted list, and the minute I come to a point where I’m upset about something and I can articulate it, I have a lot more rage to blow off through that one outlet –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – that I, than the issue actually requires.

HelenKay: Exactly. Exactly.

Sarah: We all have deep rage and shallow triggers, and, you know, when something matters as much to people as, as romance does, then you’re going to have a lot of very strong feelings, ‘cause the whole genre’s about strong feelings in the first place!

HelenKay: Exactly, and when you feel like you can’t control a whole lot in this world –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – and you’re looking, and even your career, sometimes what you can control is how angry you are at the board about X, and we do understand that that happens.

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: But –

Sarah: Comes with the job. I work on the internet; I totally know that feeling. [Laughs]

HelenKay: Right? I, I, I have, I do think, like, there, you know, there was a – I do think listening to each other is huge, and I know that sounds like a kindergarten thing to say, but –

Sarah: Nope, totally true.

HelenKay: – like, there, there was a pretty important discussion happening on the PAN loop recently that arose out of a, a problem, but what happened was, I think, a really amazing thing: a whole bunch of people who I have never seen speak on the PAN loop came on and talked about experiences they had in the publishing industry which made them feel alone and dismissed and forgotten, and I think those emails were so important, and if you were listening, if you could stop being angry for a couple seconds and you could read those emails, you would understand why some people feel like maybe RWA hasn’t helped them as much, or the industry hasn’t helped them as much, or other authors haven’t helped them much. It was an important discussion, but you had to be willing to listen and, and hear what is sometimes hard to hear because it’s not what you want to. Like, as a board member, I don’t want to hear when RWA – like, I don’t like when RWA falls down, but I want to know, like, so that we can –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – not fall down next week, you know, so we can try to do it better next time, and – and this is kind of half joking, but kind of half not – I think we should all just look up the definition of bullying and realizing that when someone disagrees with you, that’s not bullying. When someone tries to explain to you why they’re hurt or why what you said hurt them or made them feel like they weren’t listened to, that’s, that’s not bullying. That’s having an important, difficult conversation that we all need to have that’s going to make RWA better, that’s going to make us all better, that’s going to make our careers all better.

Sarah: The devil you say!

HelenKay: That’s a very frustrating thing to me, when I think that, that there’s been difficult, hard-to-hear, like, things maybe we don’t like in ourselves that we need to hear conversation, and then –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – somebody brings up the word bullying, and it’s like, ah, come on.

Sarah: No, then you just, everybody shuts down and runs away.

HelenKay: It’s, like, that’s not bullying, that’s not bullying. I mean, there is bullying, yeah.

Sarah: I can show you what that looks like, but that’s not it. [Laughs]

HelenKay: Yeah, exactly. I have some emails if you want to see bullying looks like, but I, you know, it’s –

Sarah: [Laughs] You do too? I have those same emails.

HelenKay: [Laughs] And that’s part of the fairness thing. Like, we can’t make this career fair. The career’s not fair, but we can listen to each other and understand and realize that there have been times when things have not gone the way they should have, and there have been things that have happened that have made it difficult for certain of our members, usually writers of color, people in the LGBT community, to get anything close to a level playing field. If you understand where that’s coming from and understand that –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – their, their storytelling is so important and just as, like, interesting and fun and sexy and evocative as, as everything that you’ve read before, then maybe you can, like, make a little space on the playing field, right? Like, that’s all people are asking for is a chance, and I think we have to listen to each other more for that now.

Sarah: Yes, and, and as I frequently say in my house, listening does not mean that you’re waiting for your turn to talk.

HelenKay: No. Although, I’m a, I’m a lawyer –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: – and I, I do, there is that part of me that I have to be like, stop. You’re, you’re not giving –

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

HelenKay: – a closing argument at this moment. [Laughs]

Sarah: You’re not formulating your, you’re not formulating your counterpoints here.

HelenKay: Exactly.

Sarah: You’re just listening. Yep, yep, I, I live with that. I, I live with that a lot. [Laughs] So one last easy question for you, ma’am, and thank you again for so much of your time.

HelenKay: Sure!

Sarah: What’s your, what’s your newest book, eh?

HelenKay: Aw. [Laughs]

Sarah: What you, what, what, what book you want talk, want to talk about a book? You can recommend a book, you can talk about yours, you can talk about all fifty of yours.

HelenKay: Yeah, do you have six hours? Let’s just go ahead and talk about –

Sarah: It’s the internet! I haven’t run out of room. I don’t have a word count!

HelenKay: [Laughs] I’m a writer, but I’m an avid reader. I mean, there are, I, I posted on Twitter the other day that there are, like, these series that I’m so excited about. Like, Alyssa Cole has this series, this royalty series that’s going to start?

Sarah: A Princess in Theory.

HelenKay: Oh, my God.

Sarah: February 28th.

HelenKay: I have tried to preorder that book approximately a hundred times on Amazon, and Amazon’s like, dude, you preordered this –

Sarah: You already did! [Laughs]

HelenKay: I, I’m, I’m excited, I love romantic suspense. Megan Erickson has one that’s, like, it’s pitched as The Fast and the Furious meets I, Robot. I’m like, I don’t even care what the rest of blurb is. I’m, I’m in –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: That one, I think it’s Zero Hour is the first one, and then somebody posted on Twitter the other day there is, I think the name is Reese Ryan, and she writes for, she used to write for Kimani, and now she writes for Harlequin Desire, and it’s Savannah? It, it’s this big Southern wealthy family and, and it’s, it’s Savannah something. It comes out in March of 2018, and there is this stunning Black couple on the cover. Like, the cover, I’m like – again, I don’t even care. I mean, it hits all my buttons, but the cover, I looked at it, and I was like, she is stunning, he is stunning, I want this cover. I’m very excited about that, and, yeah, my first Desire comes out in January, Pregnant by the CEO. I’ll let you guess what happened there. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, man, I hate that. I hate when that happens!

HelenKay: You stay late, and things –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – happen.

Sarah: And then sometimes the merger won’t go through unless the CEO is married, because that happens all the time.

HelenKay: All the time; in real life I find –

Sarah: All the time.

HelenKay: – that’s, like, a contractual obligation thing that happens. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, of course. You know, it’s completely real. [Laughs]

HelenKay: And I write romantic suspense for Avon, so I have a book called, coming out, at the end of December? It started, it’s a series that started with The Fixer, and then The Enforcer, and then –

Sarah: Ooh!

HelenKay: – the next one comes out.

Sarah: Yay!

HelenKay: So, yeah, so it’s a, a lot of fun. So – and that’s the other thing to remember: all those folks on the board who are volunteering all their time also have writing careers, so they do get it.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of the interview. Thank you so much to HelenKay for recording with me twice due to connectivity difficulties. I hope you enjoyed that interview, and if you have questions or you want to send some feedback or you want more information, you can email me at [email protected], or if that’s not going to stick in your memory, Sarah with an H at smartbitchestrashybooks.com [[email protected]]. Both end up in the same place.

Today’s episode has been brought to you by A Good Day to Marry a Duke by Betina Krahn. Following a hiatus, New York Times bestselling author Betina Krahn is back by popular demand with her first historical romance in almost eight years. Fans will love the first book in her brand-new Sin & Sensibility series – that’s a great name – A Good Day to Marry a Duke. Brimming with her signature wit and passion, this beguiling new Victorian romance features an American heiress, Daisy Bumgarten, as she attempts to navigate the customs of the English upper class in her last chance to marry well for the sake of her three younger sisters. A western spitfire, Daisy never dreamed she’d find her greatest challenge in the form of a well-suited gentleman. A Good Day to Marry a Duke by Betina Krahn is available everywhere books are sold and at kensingtonbooks.com.

Now, speaking of books, if you are traveling and would like a free audiobook and a thirty-day free trial of Audible, head over to audibletrial.com/SmartPodcast. If you’re a new subscriber, you get a free audiobook, get a thirty-day free trial. You can see about all the audiobooks and see which ones you like. If you would like really good historical romance with rich narration, you might really like Laura Kinsale narrated by Nicholas Boulton – though I will warn you, Kinsale’s books tend to sort of rip your heart out slowly. I know a lot of you are curious about audiobooks, and I totally understand. I was for a long time; now I listen while I walk the dogs. But if you are thinking, I would like to try one, through my affiliate link audibletrial.com/SmartPodcast, you get a free audiobook, a thirty-day free trial, and you’re helping us grow, so thanks very much.

Our music is provided by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. You can find this music on, yes, that is correct, my favorite holiday album, Adeste Fiddles. This is “The Holly and the Ivy.” This is Deviations Project. I pretty much love every song on this album. You can find it on Amazon, and I will have links to it in the show notes.

I will also have links in the show notes to all of the books we talked about, plus links to HelenKay Dimon’s website, and if you’re thinking, I would like to know more about RWA, oh, yeah, I’ve got links to that too. You can find them at RWA.org if you are curious. Actually, you know what? I’m going to check that right now, because what if I’m wrong? What if I’m incorrect? No, I’m right, it’s RWA.org. Thank goodness. [Laughs]

Okay, now that I’m being super professional, let me be further-ly professional and remind you if you have not already listened: we have a podcast Patreon, patreon.com/SmartBitches. Every little bit helps me create transcripts for older episodes and keeps the podcast going. The show grows week to week, which is amazing, and the Patreon grows as well, so thank you very, very much for your support.

And as always, I’m going to end with a terrible joke. Are you ready? I’m really proud of this one. All right, here we go:

Why doesn’t Diana Prince carry a key ring?

Give up? No idea? Why doesn’t Diana Prince carry a key ring?

Because she’s a one-door woman!

It’s so bad! I love it so much! Okay. Yes, super professional I am today. Thanks to MuttonChopViking on Reddit for that terrible joke. I very much savored it.

And on behalf of HelenKay, everyone here, including Orville, who is trying to crawl in the sound box again, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

[pretty music]