Just like it says on the tin! Jane and Sarah discuss the upcoming Romantic Times Book Lovers’ Convention, what to do if you’re a newbie who is attending on her own, and what we’re looking forward to, including the Book Blogger Conference we’re hosting. Plus, we talk about what Jane’s been reading, and Sarah attempts to recommend a book…hesitantly.
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This Episode's Music
This week’s music was provided by Sassy Outwater, and this track is called “Dragons,” by Parisian group Caravan Palace. You can find their album, “Caravan Palace,” on iTunes, and you can find the band on MySpace and Facebook.
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This podcast is brought to you by InterMix, publisher of Chanel Cleeton’s Flirting With Scandal, the first novel in a brand-new series set in Washington D.C. starring three sisters, the secrets they keep, and a powerful blog with a knack for exposing scandals.
Welcome to Washington, D.C., city of scandal, where no secret stays hidden for long…
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Transcript
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[music]
Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 140 of the DBSA podcast. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and with me today is Jane from Dear Author, and we’re talking about Romantic Times!
Next week is the Romantic Times Booklovers convention in Dallas. Both Jane and I and all of my posse at Smart Bitches will be there. It’s kind of like the Dragon Con for romance readers. It doesn’t have the multimedia television and movie presence of Comic-Con, but it’s a bunch of people taking a week off of work and taking a vacation all about books. What could possibly be bad about that, right? It’s pretty amazing! So we talk about if you’re a first-timer going to RT this year, what to expect, who to look for, who to talk to, specifically anyone and everyone you’d like to talk to, how to make friends – very easy – and what sort of things we’re looking forward to.
We also talk about what we’re reading, and I attempt to hesitantly recommend a book to Jane, because usually that does not ever end well.
This podcast is brought to you by InterMix, publisher of Chanel Cleeton’s Flirting with Scandal, the first novel in a brand-new series set in Washington, D.C., starring three sisters, the secrets they keep, and a powerful blog with a knack for exposing scandals. You can download that on May 19th.
The music you’re listening to was provided by Sassy Outwater. I’ll have information at the end of the podcast, should you be curious as to who this is and wish to buy it for your very own.
And now, on with the podcast!
[music]
Sarah: So, let’s talk about RT.
Jane Litte: All right, so we have our, is this the third time that we’re doing this blogger thing? I can’t remember.
Sarah: I think it’s the third, but I could be wrong. It might be the fourth, but I’m pretty sure it’s the third. I have no concept of time. As far as I know, RT from 2003 was last month, and RT from 2004 was, like, a couple weeks ago. Like, I have no concept of time passing, but I’m pretty sure this is the third. At least I only have two sets of last year’s and the year’s before notebooks in my house, if that’s any indicator. So, yeah, definitely at least the third.
Jane: And what do we have planned this year?
Sarah: Oh, ho, ho, ho. Well, due to feedback from last year, which is not – you know, I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but bloggers have opinions. Like, strong opinions about things. It’s pretty awesome. So we have a schedule that focuses on sort of the three main things that I think book bloggers are curious about and want to learn more about, which are how to interact with publishers – how do you get on lists to, to receive ARCs, how do you get on lists to find out about blog tours or blog hops or blog shenanigans and all the other blog things that publishers like to do. We’re going to talk about revenue and affiliate sales and how to potentially make money blogging, which is an opportunity for a lot of people, depending on what affiliate programs you use. And we’re also going to talk about technology and organization, and that’s where we have outside speakers.
We also have Jay from Joyfully Jay, who was a podcast guest. She’s going to talk about blog tours and blog tour operators. Thi-, this is something that she was emailing with me about, and I was like, what are – nobody emails me. Apparently, there are all of these different blog tour operators who constantly email her and bloggers that she knows about setting up blog tours to promote authors and pr-, promote new releases, and there are some that Jay really, really likes working with, and there are some that they, she gets really frustrated, I think, dealing with their perspective, because there’s – and I know you’ve run into this – there’s a sense that, among some people, that perhaps bloggers exist solely to promote books. That we sort of sit around waiting for people to say, here’s a book that you should talk about, and we’ll go, okay, great! We’ll talk about this book! So there, there’s this sense that we are just waiting for more content and that we will accept content from anybody who has a book to promote, which is not necessarily the case. So Jay’s going to talk about blog tour operators and making sure that if you participate in a blog tour, that you get the most out of hosting someone and that they get what they’re looking for as well, which is presumably more exposure and a reach into a new audience for their book.
Jane: A-, and I do think that there are some bloggers that do exist to run tours or to run tour content and so forth for the sole purpose of obtaining free reads, for which they, you know, do reviews and do promotion, but I do think that there is a, a certain set of bloggers that do do that, and it, so the, the challenge, I suppose, is communicating with the blog tour people that you’re working with that you have different requirements, and that’s – I think one, I think if you get on – ‘cause we’re on a couple tour lists, and I just delete those emails whenever they ask for a blog tour, because we rarely participate in them unless it’s a book that we really love, and then it’s just kind of by happenstance that we’re participating in the blog tour. And blog tours that have, you know, a hundred plus blogs involved are very different than, you know, some of them that are limited to exclusive content, because an author can’t write a hundred pieces of exclusive content.
Sarah: Uh, no. [Laughs]
Jane: So, so there are blogs that exclusively exist to do that, although I think most of those blogs will post a review along with it, along with the tour information, and I think these days, it’s probably just incumbent upon the blogger to communicate to the tour person, hey, that’s, this is kind of what I’m looking for out of the blog tour, and if the tour host isn’t responsive to your communications, then I’d just delete those emails in the future. I mean, I guess it all really depends on how badly the reader wants that, or the blogger wants that review copy, because I feel like that’s the currency of the blog tour.
Sarah: Definitely true. And I think that it’s, if you’re a new blogger, there are so many different models to follow, there are so many different kinds of book blogs, that it can be really confusing to figure out what you want to do, because it’s very easy to say, okay, well, everyone’s doing this one thing; I should do that too. It was a little hard for me to decide, I really don’t want to host blog tours. I don’t really want to host promotional content. And it, it was actually very difficult for me to say to people, thank you for emailing me, but I don’t host blog tours and I don’t host promotional content at the time, because I felt like, well, gosh, you know, am I, am I, am I turning down something that’s really important? That, that the community should do? Because that was what I was seeing other people doing? So it, it makes, it makes sense to have someone talk about how you want to define what you’re going to do on your site, because it belongs to you, and you get to make the rules.
Jane: There’s a, one tour promotional company who does tours for LGBT books, and I get emails from that person maybe ten times a day.
Sarah: Ditto.
Jane: I had to, I had to create a filter, and I don’t even look at it because it is just too onerous.
Sarah: [Laughs] I did the same thing. When you, when you get into your gmail and you’re like, oh, my gosh, there are five requests from the same person, and you filter messages like these, suddenly your inbox is a much cleaner place. It’s really frustrating when you have one person email you ten times a day about different blog tours. Though that’s another thing that we’re going to talk about, though, how to manage WordPress and how to organize content, and then we also have a speaker coming in from Waxcreative who did the rebuild and redesign of my site to talk about user inter-, user interface and how to make your site easier for users to navigate, because I had been running Smart Bitches on a different platform before I migrated to WordPress, and that platform was really, it started out for bloggers, and then it just became a content management system that wasn’t really meant to handle things like comments or conversations or even interaction between people. It was just sort of meant to be like, here’s your content; no comments needed. So it got harder and harder for people to find what they wanted on the site, which was really frustrating for me, so I had to do a lot of work to figure out how do I want users or readers to come to Smart Bitches and find other things that they’re interested in, and how can I do a better job of organizing content? So we’re going to talk about that, and then we’re going to have publishers – not publishers. They’re, they’re a little busy. People from Sourcebooks, Morgan Doremus from Sourcebooks, Ariel Tachna from Dreamspinner, and Erin Galloway from PenguinRandomHouse coming to talk about how you work with a publisher, and what are their expectations, and what do they want from you, and what would they like you to do? But what do you not have to do? That’s the other thing. I’ve, have you run into people who sort of present an opportunity to have content as, here’re the things that you must do in order to have this?
Jane: I, maybe, but I don’t, I – perhaps I’m different from other bloggers, but I never take that as a requirement in terms of, I think that my desire for ARCs has declined dramatically –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jane: – and I think that your desire for ARCs is directly proportional to how burdened you feel by these emails, okay? So if you don’t care whether you get that book, then, then you don’t feel, I don’t feel imposed upon by that email, ‘cause I’m just going to say no. And there are times, actually, there are a lot of times that, there’s act-, there’s one company I really enjoy working with, Big Honcho Media, and they’ll propose, hey, we have so-and-so – well, I’ll give, just give you an example. Darynda Jones has her eighth book coming out, I think at the end of May.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jane: And one of my reviewers really liked her book, and there was an opportunity to do an interview with her, a group interview, and I suppose then you would be able to take those questions and answers and put them on your blog. I sent that to my blogger, and she just wasn’t interested, so I wrote back to Big Honcho Media, and I said, hey, I’m sorry, but we’re just, I just don’t have a response, a positive response for this, so we’re going to pass, and she wrote me back, and she said, well, how about something different? And I said, well, what are, do you have in mind? [Laughs] And she said, well, how about Jones writes a blog post, and here are some different topics, and one of ‘em was, can I read, can I start with book eight? Which I thought was a perfect blog topic for readers.
Sarah: So true.
Jane: It’s very reader oriented, ‘cause that would be my question. You’re at book eight and about the same character? I don’t think I can start here. So the, the blog post is going to be about, you know, why I think you can start with book eight. And, so a lot of times I think that you can do one or two things. Don’t feel burdened by the fact that these are options that you’re being offered and you’re not interested in any of them.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jane: But as some –
Sarah: It’s not a requirement.
Jane: Right! Don’t be afraid – one thing, I don’t think turning down the tour is going to make them not come back to you, ‘cause I’ve said no to plenty of opportunities, and people have still come back to me. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yep.
Jane: So, so there’s nothing wrong with being choosy. There’s nothing wrong with going back to the person who’s asking you to post things and saying, hey, none of these things look interesting to me. How about doing something else?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jane: I think there’s also nothing wrong with saying no, so – or maybe you want to post your own thing. I think I’ve done that before. I think I’ve said, hey, I’m really interested in this book, but none of those topics interest me. We’ll just write our own piece.
[Laughter]
Jane: So, and, and then over time, I think, people learn your preferences, because I have people who don’t ask me to participate in a tour but will ask me if I’m interested in doing XYZ, which is something I have done with them in the past.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jane: For the blog tour owner, obviously, that requires much more work for them, because they have to keep track of the things that different bloggers enjoy doing, and I think that even though that it takes more work for them, it probably is more effective in the end. But, but the tour companies that are putting out twenty a day, like that one particular person that we both probably are getting emails from, I just don’t think it’s possible for them to, ‘cause they’re, you know, trying to move tours in quantity –
Sarah: Yep.
Jane: – whereas, like, I get an email from Big Honcho Media, like, once a week, if that.
Sarah: I get many re-, requests as well, and it’s – one thing I’ve found interesting is that many of these companies that handle blog tours also handle blog promotion for other products, so I’ll get email about things that aren’t books, which is really kind of fun, ‘cause sometimes I like, why are you talking to me about this? I don’t need a new vacuum cleaner attachment. But then sometimes I get stuff that’s really cool, like last week I got a pitch for a new product where it’s a flip-flop to wear to a pedicure, and it already has the toe separators built into the foot of the flip-flop so that you don’t have to walk out of the salon with, like, like, a toe separator or bits of tissue between your toes? And the little separators have gems on them, so you can just wear them to and from, and they look kind of cute, and I was like, this is awesome! And very much relevant to my interests! The, the nice thing about interacting with people and saying, no, thank you, or this doesn’t work for me, or we’re going to pass, or how about something else, is that most of the time, I think, they’re used to being ignored, which is horrible, but I think most of the time, pitches are greeted with silence, so if you respond in any way about what you’re looking for, that definitely helps build a relationship with the person who’s managing all of these email messages. And you can kind of tell the difference between someone who’s doing a bulk send and then trying to targer, target your site personally in some way? The easiest way to tell is when they don’t put all the email addresses in the Bcc field? That’s your first giveaway, ‘cause then there’s, like, 300 email messages at the top of the message, sooo you kind of know it’s a bulk send. But otherwise, it, it, it can really work out well to interact with people who are trying to pitch something, because there’s a lot of promotion companies out there now, especially for books and things having to do with author groups or box sets or big giveaways, that kind of thing.
So is there anything that you’re particularly looking forward to this year at RT? Are there any panels that you’re like, I must attend this; I’m really curious?
Jane: I haven’t attended a panel at RT for…I don’t know that I’ve ever attended a panel at RT. I might have attended one or two early on, but I go to see my friends and meet up with publishing contacts, and I think that it’s a great place to facilitate that. I’ve gone to parties. Like, there’s always been a ton of parties hosted by different authors. I remember I did Bunco once. I did a party with, that was hosted by Lauren Dane and a few of her author friends; that was really fun. All of the parties are really fun. I think that the authors do a very good job of entertaining readers, and there are tons of freebies, free swag, prizes, and stuff like that, so for people who haven’t gone before, I really encourage them to go to these different parties because that’s one place where you’ll kind of earn back your registration fee in freebies, because these authors are super generous.
Sarah: [Laughs] It’s so true! My first RT and my first RWA, I packed a suitcase and then put the suitcase inside another suitcase and had two suitcases when I got there and put all the books in the smaller one and put my clothes in the slightly larger one, so if you have the opportunity for nesting suitcases, this is a good idea. I have also, in the past, brought a postage-paid, large Priority Mail box and put it in the lid of my suitcase and packed a small roll of packing tape, so when I got all of the stuff, I could just pack it all in the box and ship it to myself. There’s always a, a shipping center somewhere nearby. The hotel usually has one; I know this hotel has a FedEx, but you can also usually find a UPS store or a FedEx store or even a post office near conference hotels, because somebody has to ship to and from those places. So you don’t have to carry everything home with you, but you will get a lot of stuff if you would like to have a lot of stuff.
My other tip for RT is to always, always, always go to the games. If it’s bingo, or this year I’m in part of, I’m part of something called Wheel of Romance, which is games and giveaways and prizes for a solid hour. When I did it last year, every person who walked in left with some sort of prize, and there were gift cards and books and baskets and all kinds of cool stuff, so if it’s a game, you should go, because (1) it’s really fun! And you meet a lot of people, and it’s really silly, and you’re sitting in a room playing bingo. Everyone can play bingo. I don’t know how to play Bunco, but I’m guessing it’s not hard to learn either.
Jane: It had to do with rolling dice. That’s what I remember.
Sarah: Well, then that’s not very difficult. So – [laughs] no problem! It, it seems to me like if you’re a newbie, if this is, if you’ve never been RT – and all of the reviewers who review for me are coming to RT this year, so they have been asking me all of these questions about going to RT, so I have all of this information sort of front and center in my brain – always go to the games or anything where there’s something to do that’s fun that everyone is doing. One year, I think it was, I think it was Courtney Milan and Tessa Dare and some other authors – this was two year, two or three years ago – they did the game where there’s a word behind you on a screen and whoever’s facing you has to get you to say that word. It’s like, it’s like $1,000 Pyramid if you’re watching old Game Show Network re-runs, and all of the terms were romance terms, so it was really fun and very silly. But every person who came in had a really good time, and it’s very fun, and, and you laugh a lot.
The nicest thing about RT, I think, is that people are there to have a really good time talking about books, so there’s not a lot of tension, there’s not a lot of anxiety. It’s very chill, and it’s very welcoming, so if you’ve never been, go to the games; you’ll meet, like, 35,000 new people, and then the next time you go to a meal and you walk into the ballroom and you don’t know anybody, you’re going to know a bunch of people. Or you can try to hook up with them later and go to a meal together. I don’t think anyone stays alone and un-talked-to at RT for more than an hour. Unless they want to go to their rooms and not be talked to, which is always an option. [Laughs] I mean, I always make a lot of friends when I’m there, which is one of the reasons why it’s my favorite conference.
Jane: I agree. I think that even if you’re an introvert, if you feel – there was, I don’t know if you read, after, I think it was the New Zealand or Australian readers’ conference, there was a blogger who posted that she felt like no one talked to her –
Sarah: I saw that!
Jane: – which was terrible, ‘cause obviously when you’re a new person – now, this is, this is probably the very worst experience for any person that goes to a conference like this – when you go, you see people greeting each other, talking each, to each other, and you feel awkward and excluded because you don’t know anybody. Maybe this is the very first time you’ve gone, you don’t have any reader friends, or you do have reader friends, but they haven’t come, and so, but you really want to come to this event, ‘cause you’ve heard really good things about it, but you don’t, you feel like everybody knows everybody else, but you don’t know anybody. I can promise you that if you go up to someone and tell them that this is your first time, and RT actually has a badge that says First Timer –
Sarah: Yes!
Jane: – so I would encourage you to actually wear that badge. They’ll use it –
Sarah: Absolutely, wear that ribbon! No question.
Jane: It’s not to designate you or embarrass you in any way, but it’s en-, it’s to encourage people to come and help you and make sure that you are having a good time, because we would totally understand that you are not going to have a good time if you don’t feel included.
Sarah: Yep.
Jane: But if you are in the lobby and you see someone that you’d like to talk to, this is really, as long as they’re not having a business meeting, and honestly, sometimes that’s hard to tell – I’ll tell you a funny story. So I was at RWA a few years ago. Just a couple. It was like, oh, I’d only been blogging a couple years, and the lobby was super crowded, and I saw someone I knew, and she was talking to someone else, but there was a seat right beside her, and there were no other seats anywhere, right?
Sarah: Right.
Jane: So I go and sit down on the chair by them, and I, you know, we greeted each other, and I asked maybe a few questions. They kind of talked a little bit. I just sat in the chair. Later, I found out they were actually having a business meeting, because apparently at RWA, they have business meeting everywhere because it’s a business conference.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jane: But I didn’t know this at the time, and I don’t think I found out about it until, like, a couple years later. But I don’t think that happens at RT. [Laughs] I mean –
Sarah: No.
Jane: – while there are business things going on, I think mostly it’s a socialization event, so I don’t think that you’ll have an, the embarrassing faux pas that I did?
Sarah: [Laughs] No, probably not.
Jane: But if, but if you’re a listener of this podcast and you see Sarah and me, come up and talk to us! We would love to talk to you.
Sarah: Wait, wait, wait, hold, ho, ho, ho-ho. Are you trying to say that we are two separate individual human beings? We’re not the same person? ‘Cause –
Jane: No, we are the same person.
Sarah: Oh, shit, I was, I, you know, ‘cause I have been changing my wardrobe so that I could be six foot tall, ‘cause normally I’m five-three, but as you, I have to be six feet. [Laughs]
Jane: Well, no, no, I’m hardly ever over five-ten.
Sarah: Oh, well, there you go. Well, either way, I’m preparing to, to breathe the rare and glorious air of being five-ten, because we’re the same person. [Laughs] I had to change my wardrobe, ‘cause apparently I’m a lot taller.
I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this story, but I was waiting in line for, for breakfast at RT. I was standing in front of somebody, and the nice thing about RT is if you want to make friends, go wait in a line. You don’t even have to care about what the line is for. You don’t even have to know what it’s for. Just go wait in the line, and someone will start talking to you, and you can start talking to people. I’ve met a lot of people waiting in line, and while I was in the breakfast line, I started talking to this person who – this might have been actually at RWA, now that I think about it, but I can’t remember for certain. Either way, the same rule applies – I ended up getting to the front of the line, and I was a party of one, and so was she, so even though I’m – I know this is going to sound very strange to people who know me – I’m fundamentally very shy and very introverted, and this was very, very weird for me. I invited her to have breakfast with me so that we’d be a party of two, and I will be completely honest. Part of my theory was, if we’re a party of two, we’ll get seated faster, and then I could get coffee, and breakfast, because food is important. So we sat down. I didn’t have to think of anything to ask about, because we were already in a place where there were things to talk about, so if you’re the kind of person who has some social anxiety or doesn’t know what to say to somebody they don’t know or doesn’t know how to start a conversation, it’s really to do that at RT, because there’re authors and books and reading and activities, and you have this whole buffet of things to talk about, and then if you’re having breakfast, there’s an actual buffet to eat as well, which is always a bonus, and you make friends really easily because you have so much to talk about. So if you’re going to RT or you’re thinking of going to RT and you’re thinking, I could not handle being in a room full of all these people I don’t know because I’m not going to know what to say to anybody, it’s really easy to say, what are you, what are you reading? Or, what are you really excited about? Or, what author are you hoping that you want to meet? Or, what are you going to do during the book signing? Who, who are you going to find? Or, what are you doing today? There’s a lot of things to talk about so that you don’t have to feel like you’re completely lost and unsure of what to say.
Jane: But if you go to the parties and the, those sorts of things, those will help to break your ice as well.
Sarah: Yes.
Jane: There’s also a first-timers’ meet-and-greet at RT that, where you meet other people who are first-timers, so try to swallow some of your social anxiety, and –
Sarah: I know that’s hard, but you can do it.
Jane: – and intro-, and introduce yourself if you’re feeling a little excluded, and I think that your conference experience will be much better. I, I really truly hope that no one has that experience that that poor person had at, in the other conference, and I understand how that type of anxiety can be paralyzing, but I would really encourage you to try to be, try to reach out, ‘cause I think that there are plenty of people who are going to be there who will reach back for you.
Sarah: Oh, absolutely. I, I used to play a game at RT, it used to be – this isn’t so much true anymore, but it used to be that people would read the RT Twitter hashtag while they were there. I remember this was definitely true at, true at Tools of Change, that people would actually read the Twitter stream of the conference and actually switch sessions if they thought that someone else’s session sounded more interesting than the one they were in, and I don’t think people do that as much anymore, where they read what’s being said about the conference that they’re at while they’re there. They’ll tag what they say, but they don’t necessarily go deep diving into the, into the hashtag about what, what other people are doing. But in previous years, when people did read the RT hashtag, I would tweet in the morning, come up to me and introduce me, introduce yourself, and you know, say the secret word, and I have a prize in my bag for you. This was entirely because I was feeling shy, and I, well, I was an asshole, and I put the burden of introduction on someone else, but I wanted to introduce myself to people, and like we’ve talked about in prior podcasts, I’m not always sure of the reception that I’m going to get if I introduce myself, so I figure, if someone introduces themselves to me, that would work. And that was, that was really easy. So, usually I have stickers. If you see me and you want to introduce yourself and you would like a sticker, I have stickers. Come and introduce yourself to me. There, I did it again. I put the burden of introduction on someone else ‘cause I’m a giant schmuck. But! I have stickers, and stickers are cool. The other thing is, if you are looking for kitchen appliances, like minor kitchen appliances, like chip clips, fridge magnets, go to the goody room and go to the promotion alley. There’s also chocolate there. If you’re hungry, promotion alley usually has candy, gum, Hershey kisses, individually wrapped chocolates. If you’re feeling a little peckish, go there.
The thing about RT, though, is that this is a, what is it, five days? Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday – so four- to five-day conference full of people who have taken time off work and taken away, taken time away from their families and spent money to be in a hotel full of people to talk about books. These are already your people, so if you are scared, you do not have to be, because all of these people love the same thing you do, and if you have not met romance readers in person, they are among the most friendly and welcoming people. So if you’re coming and you are a little nervous as, as a first-timer, I hope this is helpful, and if you see me or you see Jane, definitely introduce yourselves to us, because I promise you, (a) we’re not the same person. I’m, like, a foot shorter! I’m, like, really, I’ll stand next to, to Jane. You’ll be able to tell; I will be the extremely petite one. You can totally introduce yourselves to us, ‘cause we would really like to meet you. Am I wrong about that?
Jane: You are not wrong about that. There’s something –
Sarah: Especially the part about being a foot shorter.
Jane: You know, it’s kind of funny, ‘cause my daughter’s getting taller, and her goal is to be taller than me –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jane: – and I have told her that that will never happen, because I wear heels and she doesn’t like wearing heels. She’s very, she’s very much not a, not into clothes and shoes and so forth, and I said to her that no matter how tall she gets, I will always be taller, because I can always wear heels taller than her, so, you know, when she’s eighteen, I’ll be wearing stilts, but I will still be taller than her.
Sarah: [Laughs] Do you have any books that you would like to talk about, ma’am? Have you read anything good lately?
Jane: Well, I mean, I, I read The Mistake and, by Elle Kennedy, and The Friend Zone by Kristen Callihan, but full disclosure, I beta read those books, and beta reading for both of those included them sending me chapters, and me sending me, where’s the rest of it?
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jane: – emails back to them, and –
Sarah: That’s, like, the worst cliffhanger ever!
Jane: I do know, halfway through – when, when Elle con-, contacted me, it was weird, because Elle contacted me earlier this year, or maybe it was – like you, I, my concept of time kind of runs together.
Sarah: Yep.
Jane: Like, I cannot believe we’re almost halfway done with 2015. I can even barely remember to write 2015. I’m still in 2014.
Sarah: I know.
Jane: So, sometime in, like, 2014 or 2015, you know, Elle emailed me, out of the blue, really, ‘cause I hadn’t had much email con-, contact with her, other than for like, you know, sending her email saying, when is the next SEAL book coming out, ‘cause I really need something to read. [Laughs] And she’s like, hey, would you be interested in, or would you beta read this book I wrote, a New Adult book? I think, you know, everybody knows I love New Adult, so that, she must have come to me because of that, and I don’t re-, beta read for people. People, I think, are afraid of me or afraid of my con-, contacts or, or, or what I might say about it, or they think I won’t do it. Either one, I have, I, I don’t think I’ve ever been asked before, or maybe once before? I can’t remember. So this was my first experience, and I was like, well, sure, but I don’t know what I can do for you. Can I just say I like it or don’t like it? So she sent me, like, I can’t, it wasn’t even very much. It was, like, three chapters or something like this, and I was like, if you don’t send me more right now, I’m never going to answer another email. [Laughs] And it was, I really loved the, The Deal. I thought it was so funny, and the characters are really genuine, and so, you know, the funny thing about that story too, of The Deal, is that Elle wasn’t going to publish this. She, she kind of wrote it as a lark, and she just didn’t think that anyone else was going to like it, and I thought, you’re crazy! And between me and her friend Vivian Arend, who’s another author – they, they actually co-write a matchmaker series featuring former military guys – and between me and her, we convinced Elle to publish this, and obviously it’s been hugely successful, and the second one just came out, and it’s just as funny. There’s a scene – oh, my God, I’m probably spoiling it a little bit, but there’s a scene in which the girl, the heroine, Logan is the hero, and he’s trying to win her back, and she has this long list of things that he has to do in order to, for him to prove to her that he’s serious, because he’s quite the player, and she doesn’t think that he’s serious, so she has this big, long list of things, incl-, one of them is writing a po-, a love poem for her –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jane: – and that scene is hilarious, because – let me see if I can find it, and I’ll read a little bit of it to you, because it’s – [laughs] – he’s terrible at it, and then his friend, the, the hockey guys that he lives with, they, they find it, they find out about the poem, and then they mock him…and try to help him at the same time.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jane: Okay, so he’s like, so this is Logan: What rhymes with insensitive? I tap my pen on the kitchen table, beyond frustrated with my current task. Who knew rhyming was so effing difficult? Garrett, who’s dicing onions at the counter, glances over. “Sensitive,” he says helpfully.
[Laughter]
Jane: Yes, G, I’ll be sure to rhyme insensitive with sensitive. Gold star for you. On the other side of the kitchen, Tucker finishes loading the dishwater and turns to frown at me.
What the hell are you doing over there, anyway? You’ve been scribbling on that notepad for the past hour.
I’m writing a love poem, I answer without thinking. Then I slam my lips together, realizing what I’ve done. Dead silence crashes over the kitchen. Garrett and Tucker exchange a look, an extremely long look. Then, perfectly synchronized, their heads shift in my direction and they stare at me as if I’ve just escaped from a mental institution. I may as well have. There’s no other reason why I’m voluntarily writing poetry right now. And that’s not even the craziest item on Grace’s list.
So, it goes on:
I have, I just have one question, Garrett starts.
Really? Tuck says, because I have many.
[Laughter]
Jane: Sighing, I put my pen down. Go ahead, get it out of your systems.
Garrett crosses his arms. This is for a chick, right? Because if you’re doing it for funsies, then that’s just plain weird.
It’s for Grace, I reply through clenched teeth. My best friend nods solemnly. Then he keels over, asshole. I clutch, I scowl as he clutches his side, his broad back shuddering with each bellowing laugh, and even while racked with laughter, he manages to pull his phone from his pocket and start typing. What are you doing? I grumble.
Texting Wells-y. She needs to know this.
I hate you. I’m so busy glaring at Garrett that I don’t notice that Tucker, what Tucker’s up to until it’s too late. He snatches the notepad from the table, studies it, and hoots loudly.
Holy shit, G, he rhymes jackass with cutlass.
[Laughter]
Jane: Cutlass? Garrett wheezes. Like the sword?
The car, I muttered. I was comparing her lips to this cherry red Cutlass I fixed up when I was kid, drawing on my own experience, that kind of thing.
So then it goes on about, they try to help him write a better poem, and it’s really terrible.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Jane: Kristen Callihan’s The Friend Zone came out, or comes out tomorrow, and that is a super-funny book, too. Very, very, lots of intensity without consummation, which is kind of a fun, you know, there’s a lot of heat and tension that arises from the fact that they don’t get together right away, which is nice. So those are books that I really enjoyed.
But I’ve really been struggling right now, finding something good to read. I bought, did you buy The Orphan Pearl? It’s by Erin Satie? Remember, we both really liked her ink story?
Sarah: Yes. I did buy it. I haven’t started it; did you start it?
Jane: No, see, what is wrong with us? Like, we both really like – this, I’m, like, questioning what, where my mind is right now, because I really liked her story, and for some reason, I haven’t read it yet. I haven’t even opened it.
Kelly Jamieson has a hockey series, the Heller Brothers? And I bought one at 99 cents, Faceoff, and enjoyed that, and then I went on to buy One Man Advantage, and I really like the One Man Advantage. I would recommend that one.
Sarah: What kind of conflict is that one?
Jane: One Man Advantage is, okay, so the heroine is a, works in the public relations department of the Minnesota NHL team, the Caribou. Her father is like Wayne Gretzky. Not Wayne Gretzky, obviously –
Sarah: Right.
Jane: – some other fake name, but it’s a hockey legend, and her brother plays hockey, and she’s dated a few hockey guys, and the story opens with her ex-boyfriend saying, being asked, how do you feel about your ex-girlfriend dating a former teammate, and he says something like, she should just date more than one of them at a time so she doesn’t take so long going through the team, or something like that. It’s super insulting, makes her out to be this big whore, so she decides she’s not going to date another hockey guy, of course. I can’t remember his name now, but the third Heller brother comes, gets traded all of a sudden to her Caribou team, and they have this instant attraction, and he falls for her. Like, he falls for immediately and thinks that she’s the one for him, but she feels like she can’t date a hockey guy, and so ultimately, she says, look, I’ll have a relationship with you, but I’m not telling anybody about it.
[Laughter]
Jane: And she, he didn’t like that either. But I liked, kind of, how everyone stood up for her. Her friends stood up for her, her brother stood up for her, and you know, the person who insulted her was really viewed as, viewed poorly by everybody. By the team, by the other hockey players, so it was really her kind of internalizing this shame that she had, partly because she felt like she was never good enough for her parents –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jane: – and, so I, I kind of like that dynamic, and thought that he was super sweet, and I liked her. Her name was Nicole, I think.
Sarah: Cool!
Jane: But the, but the Jamieson series is, like, kind of low angst, very sexy, and likeable people. Like, the Heller brothers are all like, very likeable, and the family’s super likeable. No dead parents in these books.
Sarah: Isn’t it cool when a character has a supportive family that is, that functions as a supportive, normal family?
Jane: Yeah! Did you read The Shameless Hour? No, you don’t read Sarina – yeah, you do read Sarina Bowen.
Sarah: I have not read The Shameless Hour.
Jane: The Shameless Hour, I had some problems with it, but I real-, but I did like it, and I really kind of appreciated what Bowen was doing with that character, because, like, Bella was a woman who had, you know, slept around in the past, and, but her, her, the hockey team was really supportive of her. I did not feel like the hero was strong enough for her until the very end, ‘cause I really felt like she needed a particular kind of guy –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Jane: – and he didn’t show me to be that kind of guy until the very end of the book, and while I liked the, Rafe, the hero, and his family and his storyline, I didn’t feel like he was a good match for her.
Sarah: Huh.
Jane: Ultimately I did at the end, but in the beginning I didn’t. And I don’t know if that was my own problem or, because other people liked it a lot more than I did. It, it’s funny because, you know, I’m not a big m/m reader, but I, my favorite book by Bowen is The Understatement of the Year.
Sarah: Mm-hmm. You, you’ve mentioned it.
Jane: You’ve, you’ve not read that one, though.
Sarah: I have not.
Jane: You read the one that I didn’t like, the one where I felt like I had to make the MRA argument.
Sarah: [Laughs] Yes, Coming in from the Cold.
[Laughter]
Sarah: ‘Cause as usual, we don’t agree on anything.
Jane: Did you read, then, the second book about his friend?
Sarah: No, I didn’t. I didn’t, I – what was weird, wasn’t there something weird about the release of that book? Like it was part of an anthology, and then it wasn’t, and then that line stopped, and then the book came out independently, that she published it? There was something weird about that, that story’s release, I think.
Jane: That’s exactly what happened. It was in an anthology – [laughs] – and –
Sarah: Right! It was Harlequin-E, and then –
Jane: Right.
Sarah: – they stopped doing that.
Jane: And so she got the rights back, and then she re-, re-released those two books –
Sarah: Right.
Jane: – and the, The Shameless Hour, and I’m not sure exactly what she has coming out, but I’m excited. She’s such a good writer.
I read Overruled by Emma Chase. Did you read that book?
Sarah: Nope. Tell me about it.
Jane: [Laughs]
Sarah: That’s not a good noise. Whooaa, crap. [Laughs]
Jane: Emma Chase is super good at writing the male point of view, and she’s so readable. Like, she’s just very entertaining, but the story that she told in Overruled just, like, drove me crazy. It, the hero is Stanton, and the story opens with his, him getting his high school sweetheart, Jenny, pregnant, and he has a, a scholarship to go to Columbia, and he says, no, I’m going to give that up and I’m going to stay here and help you raise the kid, and she’s like, no, you are going to go to Columbia, you’re going to fulfill your dream of being this lawyer, and I’m going to raise this kid, and we’re, this is, this is how it’s going to be. And so he goes off, and then she has the baby and she tells him, hey, I don’t want you to feel tied to me. You need to go and, and live your life, however way it is, you know. You can be with other people, and I’m going to be okay with that. Ultimately, she’s not okay with that, obviously, but Jenny is not the heroine of the story. [Laughs]
Sarah: Huh!
Jane: It’s Sofia, this girl that she, he has this casual, it’s a lawyer she, he works with, and so ten years later, he gets a wedding invitation to Jenny’s wedding, and he’s furious, because Jenny is his girl, and all of these other women, including Sofia, are just women he sleeps with, and even though he lives in Washington, D.C., and she lives in Mississippi.
Sarah: Huh.
Jane: Jenny lives in Mississippi with their kid, and one of the things that really bothered me is that Stanton thought he was a good dad because he Skypes with his daughter and he sees her occasionally. I’m like –
Sarah: Uhhhh, n’okay.
Jane: No.
Sarah: Uh, yeah.
Jane: Like, I felt like Stanton wanted cookies for being, for Skyping regularly with his kid. I’m like, what?
Sarah: [Laughs] No, dude. Sorry.
Jane: No! No, you don’t get any cookies for that. You’re, you’re a jerk. That’s, I mean, that he – there are, there are lawyer jobs in Mississippi. There are lots of lawyer jobs in Mississippi, you know, so I felt like he was a selfish jerk, and he never, there’s never any acknowledgement of that. There’s one part in the story where he’s like, where his daughter is telling him, hey, there are times that I wish that you were back here with me, and he’s like, wow, really? You never said anything. I’m like, oh, my God. Everything Stanton did drove me up the wall.
Sarah: That does not sound like a book that would work for me. I have a book to cautiously recommend to you.
Jane: Oh, lay it on me, ‘cause I’m anxious.
Sarah: Okay. Well, you know, I don’t like recommending books to you, because we don’t like the same things, so I’m going to describe this as neutrally as I can and see if you’re interested. Okay. So, in this book, it’s a sort of childhood-friends-to-lovers story? The hero and heroine grew up in a rather bad part of town, and she has always had a massive crush on him, and the one night where she thinks that he’s finally noticed her, that he’s finally noticed her as something beyond his, you know, former friend’s younger sister that he hangs out with a lot, she thinks, oh, he’s finally noticed me. She thinks, okay, we, we’re finally going to change the way our relationship works. She finds out the next morning that that night he ran off and joined the armed forces and is just gone, and she’s like what the fuck, you left me, and I have very little here, and you were my best friend, and you ran away! What the hell is wrong with you? Five years later, he comes back.
Jane: This book sounds so familiar. I wonder if I’ve already read it.
Sarah: So – [laughs] – five years later, he comes back, and she has elevated herself through a lot of hard work from the really crappy part of town where she was working in a bakery to being the second in command of a very exclusive chocolate shop, and he comes back, and he’s like, I did all of this for you. And she’s like, what the fuck is wrong with you? I didn’t ask you to –
Jane: This is, this is the Laura Florand book.
Sarah: Yes! Did you already read this?
Jane: No, but I bought it, but I, but I, when you were telling me the backstory, I’m like, wow, I’ve read that –
Sarah: [Laughs] Basically –
Jane: – before.
Sarah: – this really worked for me because a lot of the conflict was, it was internal conflict that was between them. So he could not accept that who he was as a teenager and as a young twenty-one-year-old was worthy of her, and she was like, why do you not understand that I liked you then and I liked you now, and you keep doing these things without telling me, and that’s really awful. You don’t get it. So they have this barrier to understanding each other that I thought, okay, this is, this isn’t going to hold up for more than a couple chapters, and then something else is going to happen that’s external and annoying to continue the conflict, but that’s not what happened. The, their inability to explain themselves fully continues in ways that are, for me, were totally believable and logical. They were younger. They were not very smart about being grownups. They didn’t know how to adult, as RedHeadedGirl says, and when he comes back, they have to work out how they’ve changed, and they have to work out his inability to appreciate who he was, even though he appreciates her at every stage of her life. I really, really liked it, and of course, now that I’ve said all this, you’re probably thinking, nope, nope, not for me. Nope, nope, nopenopenope.
Jane: Well, I have never read Florand. I’ve tried a couple times, and I’ve never made it very far, but I keep saying I, I’m going to read her, so maybe this is the book!
Sarah: You know, you should. I, there are a couple titles of hers that really don’t work for me. Really, really, don’t. Like the, one of them wasThe Chocolate Heart, and one of them was The Chocolate Thief. In both cases, I thought the heroine was really presumptuous and had a sense of entitlement that I found really offensive, but that’s sort of part of their character. I just, I, I couldn’t get into those, but I loved The Chocolate Kiss, and I really liked The Chocolate Rose, and The Chocolate Temptation was pretty good too. This one I really, really liked because the way that their conflicts with each other sort of – they’re, they’re paralleled and mirrored in really interesting ways, and I think Florand does a lot of really interesting things with the whole idea of the hero, the hero being the hero. What does it mean to be someone’s hero, and do you get to define that, or does the person who sees you get to define that? And do you get to argue with how they see you? And, it was really very smart, and I hope if you read it, you, (a) I hope you like it, ‘cause we never like the same things, and (b) I hope you read it. I hope you’ll tell me what you think.
Jane: All right, well, I have it on my list, and it’s not like I don’t want to read it. It’s like I have that Erin Satie book, and I want to read it. I, I feel like I’m not in the right mood, and you want to be in the right mood when you read a book that you like, or when you, when you are going to read a book from an author that you like, ‘cause you want to enjoy the experience, right? You don’t want to –
Sarah: Absolutely!
Jane: So, ‘cause there are always people who say, well, do you, don’t you, are you picking books you don’t like to read, or why are you reading this book? You said you didn’t like that author before – [laughs] – but the fact of the matter is, I think every reader wants to enjoy the book that they’re going to read. Like, when I picked up Overruled by Emma Chase, I was really hopeful, you know?
Sarah: Yep.
Jane: There’s no, there, there’s no –
Sarah: Hate-reading?
Jane: Right. You end, I think you end up hate reading, you know what I mean? Like, you’re starting the book and you’re like, oh, well, I have to finish it now. How angry am I going to get?
[Laughter]
Jane: So – but I don’t think that you pick up the book with that intention.
Sarah: Sometimes I do. I – [laughs] – I, I will only hate-read a book if it’s only a handful of pages. Like, if I know something is going to be completely ridiculous and horrible, and, and, like, you know, Pounded by the Gay Color-Changing Dress? I am hopeful that that’s going to be entertaining. I’m not hopeful that it’s going to be good. But I don’t, I don’t embark on hate-reading something unless it’s really short and it’s set up for people to be like, what the hell is this? Such as Pounded by the Gay Color-Changing Dress. I’m like you; everything that I’m trying to read, I want to enjoy, and I have been, I don’t know, I think that there’s, I think there’s a reading slump going around. Like, I, it took me forever to find a book that I wanted to read and that I enjoyed. You know what I mean?
Jane: Well, I do know I’m going to enjoy this Erin Satie book. Well, at least I hope I do, but I want to be in the right mood, and I don’t want to be in a, a, a mood that’s going to affect my pleasure of enjoyment of that book, so I think what I’m doing is waiting for a time in which, you know, I’m pretty busy these days, and so I only have short amounts of time to read, and I think that part of my – like, Erin Satie, I think she’s such a smart writer that I want to be in a, I don’t want to be half asleep when I start it. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yep.
Jane: Or, I don’t know, it’s weird. I was thinking about that when, before the podcast, about how I was going to have to talk about books that I’ve been reading, and that was one that I want to be reading, but for some reason haven’t tapped on it.
Sarah: Well, I always find that if there’s something I know I’m really looking forward to reading, I want to devote myself to just reading it, and I don’t want to be interrupted. There’s not a lot of time in my life where I can only do one thing. Like, that’s why I save certain books for airplanes, because I want to be completely absorbed in the book and forget that I’m sitting in a plane for three or four hours. So it’s, it’s, sometimes it’s, it’s a question of not wanting to be interrupted, but I do know exactly what you mean.
[music]
Sarah: And that is all for this week’s podcast. I hope you enjoyed our conversation. It is really weird to delay reading a book because you want to enjoy it and you’re not sure you’re in the mood to really enjoy something. Does that happen to you? Totally happens to us.
If you have feedback or you want to say, yes, that totally happens to me, you can email us at [email protected]. You can also email us if you have suggestions or you have ideas or you have a book you’d like to recommend to one of us – probably not both of us, ‘cause we never like the same things; it’s really weird.
This podcast was brought to you by InterMix, publisher of Chanel Cleeton’s Flirting with Scandal, the first novel in a brand-new series set in Washington, D.C., starring three sisters, the secrets they keep, and a powerful blog with a knack for exposing scandals. You can download it on May 19th.
The music you’re listening to was provided by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This track I have used before, but I like it a lot. It’s called “Dragons,” and it’s by a Parisian group called Caravan Palace. You can find their album on iTunes, and you can find the band on MySpace or Facebook, but MySpace is where everyone needs to be, right? I mean, obviously.
Future podcasts will include me and the entire Smart Bitches posse at RT talking about RT, and if you see me or one of us or Jane or both of us, please, if you’re at RT, please come up and introduce yourself, ‘cause we would really love to meet you! I’m the short one. [Laughs] The really short one when I stand next to Jane, ‘cause she always wears heels.
In the meantime, on behalf of Jane and myself, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend.
[bitchin’ music]
This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.
Thankyou for your podcast. I was feeling very down indeed, and it really cheered me up.
OK my mind is now blown. Sarah, for some reason, I have always pictured you as a tall person. I guess I think you have a tall sounding voice. I am going to RT (by myself, and for the first time, so thanks for that advice), and now I know I need to look for a shorter person if I want to meet you. I think maybe I have always pictured you as one of the 50s-style ladies pictured on the website. Please tell me that you at least wear cat eye eyeglasses.
@Lammie: HA! Yes. I am tall-sounding but short-being. I do in fact wear glasses, but not with cats eye – my prescription doesn’t fit in them! My sunglasses are, though. Does that count?
@Des Livres:
Oh, thank you for saying that! I’m sorry you’ve been feeling down, and I’m very happy to have helped a little. I hope your weekend is lovely with much to enjoy!
I put off reading books frequently. Some books require their own time, the proper frame of mind, and even a certain barometric pressure.
Speaking of Erin Satie, I picked up The Orphan Pearl last week and realized I needed to get going on the first two books in that series. So I’m in the middle of The Secret Heart right now, and really appreciating how focused the heroine is on achieving her goal. I’m not saying I’d want her as a friend, mind you, but getting into her head is enjoyable.
I also put off reading particular books. Some of it is mood, just not in the mood to read historicals, or not in the mood to read heavy drama. Sometimes it’s an issue of knowing that I want to binge and so waiting until I have all the books lined up and the time. Much less frequently for me, is avoiding gore or violence. I often go for the dark suspense, but there are times when I just know that I can’t cope with that.
I think there’s absolutely something to be said for waiting for the appropriate time (for you,) to read a particular book BECAUSE you will enjoy it more if you wait. I have a very hard time putting down a book once I start it. Even if I’m really not enjoying it, I will finish it. That can cause me problems going back to other books in the series or even just other books by the author.
I don’t think it’s an indication that you don’t want to read the book or that you won’t truly enjoy it. I have been waiting on a Sandra Brown, who I love, just because I think it’s going to be too much for me right now. I’m also putting off reading some Allison Brennan, who is my very favorite author, because I don’t want to run out so I’m waiting for more in the series.
This whole having no concept of time thing, I got that. The funny thing is is that I have really good recall of things like conversations, or what I was wearing, or what you are wearing, or location, or the weather, but I could not tell you when these things occurred. No clue.
And funnily enough, a lot of those conversations have happened when I’ve been waiting in line. The people waiting in line with you are very interesting. I too have made friends while I was waiting in line.
I am also one of those readers who have to been the right mood to read certain books. If I am too tired, or in an odd place, or distracted, there are certain genres or authors I just leave alone, because I know that it will negatively effect my reading experience.
Of course, this is also true in terms of writing. I do a lot of writing, in general, but specifically script writing, but there are some days, no matter how many ideas I need to work out, where I just CAN’T because I know my mood will make what I’m trying to express come out in a way I don’t want it to.
I <3 Laura Florand soo much you guys. She's also really good at writing her heroes as wanting. And what they want more than anything is their heroines and I just nom it up.
I decided to check on Scribd for the Elle Kennedy books and found that both of them are there! Yusssssss! *Does happy dance* I’m going to read now.
For me time is also a consideration for when I read a book. I read at night and I prefer to save my favorite authors for nights when I can read long into the night. Usually that is not until Friday. What is awful is when there is a book that on my kindle that I have been waiting to read but Friday comes and I am suddenly not in the right mood to read it.
Три дня назад мониторил содержимое сети, неожиданно к своему удивлению увидел неплохой веб-сайт. Посмотрите: Купить табак для кальяна Екатеринбург. Для моих близких вышеуказанный сайт оказался весьма нужным. До свидания!
I need to stop listening to you 2 bitches, you’re making me BROKE! 😉
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