732. The Heated Rivalry Unauthorized Musical Parody with Dylan MarcAurele

[intro]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 732 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell. My guest today is Dylan MarcAurele. Dylan is the writer and composer behind the Heated Rivalry Unauthorized Musical Parody, and when I tell you the way my heart was racing while I was prepping for this conversation – I am so excited to share this with you. We are going to talk about writing musical theater, his writing process, and how long it took him to write this show (you won’t believe the answer). He also talks about the actors and how the show came to be, and it is really delightful. Musical theater and romance have a lot of similarities that I had not considered, and I learned so much from this conversation. I hope you love it too.

I also have to say thank you, as author Kirsty Greenwood, who I saw this musical with, sent me some questions, as she is also a massive musical theater fan. Thank you, Kirsty!

I will have links to all of the shows that we mention, and there are many, as well as any books we mention, because of course we’re a books podcast.

I have a compliment this week!

To Samantha F.: Samantha, you make your friends feel like the things that they might be insecure about are, in fact, their finest features. You make people feel confident and seen.

If you would like a compliment of your very own, you’d like to support the show, patreon.com/SmartBitches is where you do that. Patreon support helps me keep going each and every week, it helps me procure new issues of Romantic Times, and it helps to ensure an artisan, handcrafted transcript by garlicknitter. Hi, garlicknitter! [Hello! – gk] Your support means a lot. Our Patreon community is full of some of the nicest humans on the internet; we have a Discord; plus you get the full PDF scan of every RT magazine issue. That address again, if you do not remember, is patreon.com/SmartBitches.

All right, are you ready? Five, six, seven, eight – on with the podcast. [Laughs]

[music]

Dylan MarcAurele: I’m Dylan MarcAurele, pronouns he /him, and I am the writer of Heated Rivalry: The Unauthorized Musical Parody!

Sarah: Did you mean for it to abbreviate to H-RUMP?

Dylan: [Laughs] No, that’s a happy accident, I guess.

Sarah: Yay! Okay. Thank you so much for the Heated Rivalry Unauthorized Musical Parody.

Dylan: Oh God, thank you for seeing it.

Sarah: I had the greatest time, and I just need to tell you, I, I walked in, and you know, of course, in the theater, the waiting room is on one level and the theater is on another level.

Dylan: Yes –

Sarah: So we’re all chilling –

Dylan: – very unusual space, yeah.

Sarah: Very cool waiting room, lots of vintage chairs, lots of sofas where you sink, you sit down and, like, your butt is like three inches from the ground.

Dylan: Totally!

Sarah: So I sat down, I’m chilling, waiting for the people who are coming to see with me, and there’s a group of four over to my right; it’s two older women and two older men. There were so many older couples when I saw it?

Dylan: Mmm! Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: I mean, I, like, I mean, like, short sleeve, button-down plaid shirts, white socks with sandals. That’s what I’m talking about here.

Dylan: Yes.

Sarah: So this group is sitting off to the side and they’re like, you know, having a little drink, blah-blah-blah, and as they are going into the theater – they’re, they’re called, they get their little cards, they go into the theater – that is when the women start telling their partners what this is about.

Dylan: Oh my God, that’s when! [Laughs]

Sarah: As they are walking in, so Oh, we haven’t told you about Heated Rivalry; let us tell you about it real quick.

Dylan: My God!

Sarah: And I was just like, Can I please just sit behind you and listen to the whole…

Dylan: Totally, totally.

Sarah: They – so I saw them; from while I, where I was seated, I could see them. They were dying.

Dylan: Oh, I’m so glad!

Sarah: Even people who had been introduced to the entire concept like two minutes prior were into it.

Dylan: Sure, sure. Maybe there was a little bit of manipulation there, but that’s okay.

Sarah: Everyone was, I was counting the jerseys, how many Hollanders, how many Rosanovs.

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: So this was truly a, the entire experience was amazing. So I have to start by saying thank you so much.

Dylan: Oh my God, thank you!

Sarah: And also – I said this in my review – I didn’t think I liked musicals?

Dylan: Oh!

Sarah: It turns out what I don’t like is Andrew Lloyd Weber?

Dylan: [Laughs] Got it, yeah!

Sarah: But I came –

Dylan: Who does?

Sarah: – I came of age when everything was Andrew Lloyd Weber, right?

Dylan: Totally, totally, totally.

Sarah: So I thought that was it. And I was like, Oh, maybe I was wrong! So thank you for that.

Dylan: Welcome.

Sarah: I know you have told this story a thousand times, but would you please tell me, how did you end up writing this musical?

Dylan: Sure! So I have been an aspiring musical theater writer for a while and plugging away at various non-IP projects, and it’s, it’s really hard. The state of musicals is, is tough right now, but something that I found a lot of joy in is writing things that are intended to be short-lived and intended to be sort of like riffs on things that are happening in pop culture and specifically gay pop culture.

And so I always have a little bit of an ear out for those things? I did a parody of The Real Housewives of New York. That was when I was furloughed from my job in the pandemic. And I used to only do music for musical theater projects, and that was when I started to, I was like, Maybe I could try writing lyrics, and maybe I could try writing book or script. And so I just had so much fun with that and developed a little bit of a following there. And then I did a spoof of the movie M3GAN, the horror movie, which was super fun. Again, like, not a ton of people came to that one, but, like, I was, I was finding myself as a writer.

And then I think kind of all the pieces came to place once my friend Tess Davison, who’s always ahead of me in queer pop culture – [laughs] – said, You need to check out this show. And I was really busy with other projects, and I was really, I was praying that I would not like the TV show –

[Laughter]

Dylan: – because I knew that if I, if I did, I would have to – ‘cause at this point it was December; everyone was talking about it; I knew that it was a big thing. And sure enough, I fell in love in the first five minutes. I loved how it takes big swings. It’s iconic. It’s a little bit slow. It’s so specific. It was shot so beautifully. It’s acted so beautifully. I can only imagine from where you’re sitting, like, having been a fan of the books for so long and seeing it come to life. And I’m sure it’s not a one-for-one exactly what you expect, but the, the spirit must still be there, right? ‘Cause now I’ve read the book and, and I’m like, It’s so perfect.

But anyway, so I was like, Shit, I have to do something with this. I hope it’s o- – can I curse?

Sarah: You – my website’s name is Smart Bitches, Trashy Books and this podcast is an –

Dylan: [Laughs] All right, yes. Oh, and you had Chuck Tingle! Yes!

Sarah: Yes! Yes.

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: Me and Chuck Tingle have talked many times. Curse as much as you please.

Dylan: Okay, amazing. So I fell in love with the TV show, and I started taking notes because I knew that I wouldn’t want to watch it more than once, because something happens where if you watch it again and again, you lose track of what things are memorable to those who have maybe only seen it once, and you start –

Sarah: Right.

Dylan: – getting a better sense of those, like, super, super memorable moments? And then I can actually fill in the gaps of my own memory with some creative meanderings that don’t quite follow the script. I can have a little bit of a Mandela effect where I’m connecting dots that weren’t actually there, which helps make it a parody and not just kind of plagiarism or an adaptation. You, having seen the show, like, you know that there’s a lot of sort of like subtext and, and subplots and stuff that is not – [laughs] – is, is original.

And so I just, I made these lists of things that I loved, and then I decided I was going to do a One Night Only concert that I was going to self-produce because I – [laughs] – have learned in this business that I can only count on myself. And I, and I texted a friend who’s been in this space and sort of the comedy and cabaret space for a while, and I said, Are there any venues in New York that I’m, that I haven’t thought of? And he responded, saying, Hey, I could produce this if you like. And I was like, Yeah, that would be amazing! Save me all of that work.

Sarah: Like, yes, please!

Dylan: Yeah, right? He said, I think there’s something here. He had seen my show MEG4N, and we had wanted to work together for a while. And so he took that all off my plate, and then he started to scale things up. So it was no longer a thing with my friends as the actors. My friends are very talented actors, but he found Broadway talent and got them on board.

And it just started to keep on – you know, we announced a date before it was even written, and it sold out, and then another one sold out, so there clearly was a desire for, for keeping Heated Rivalry, like, alive and finding ways to meet up in community and experience something together? And we see that with the raves and the, the dance parties and, you know, everything.

But yeah, and then I wrote it in three weeks, and then – [laughs] – we did the readings, and then there was interest in transferring it off-Broadway, and now I have my first show off-Broadway. So that’s, that’s the long story, but yeah.

Sarah: Okay, first of all, congratulations, that’s amazing.

Dylan: Oh, thank you.

Sarah: I kind of love and am horrified by the idea that you’re like, Well, we sold it out, so now I have to finish it.

Dylan: Oh yeah, it’s so scary. If I hadn’t done that a couple times, yeah, I wouldn’t have been able to take that bet? I, I – that’s why sometimes I look back and I’m like, Oh, what a waste. Like, why did, why – no one came to see my M3GAN spoof and stuff. But these things – and I think this applies to everybody – like, you don’t realize you’re in training for that next real big thing.

Sarah: Oh, absolutely.

Dylan: You know what I mean? Yeah.

Sarah: Absolutely. Every, every experience that you have brings you to the moment that you’re in.

Dylan: Yes.

Sarah: I think it was, one of my favorite old quotes is Seneca, that luck is when opportunity and preparation meet?

Dylan: Yes! That’s a great quote!

Sarah: And you can’t –

Dylan: That’s a really old quote, yeah.

Sarah: It’s very old, but it’s true! Everything that, like, may not have worked out, all of a sudden you’re like –

Dylan: Yes.

Sarah: Oh wait, I have those exact skills from this thing –

Dylan: Yes.

Sarah: – that didn’t work several years ago.

Dylan: Yes, yes.

Sarah: And I love that fandom now means re-engaging with the original piece of it either multiple times or in different ways. Like you mentioned, there’s a, now you have a parody musical; there’s raves; there’s watch-alongs; there’s parties about it. Like, we are creating additional events around a TV show –

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: – which is kind of incredible.

Dylan: And so, and I totally understand and empathize with anybody who has skepticism about, like, a parody musical for a book or a TV show that they love? My argument will always be that if it’s done right, it just adds to this –

Sarah: Oh –

Dylan: – community engagement.

Sarah: So you wrote this in three weeks, which I’m never going to get over for the rest of my natural life, thank you.

Dylan: [Laughs]

Sarah: Is that your typical pace? Like, when an, an idea hits, it hits, it takes over, and, and this is the thing that you’re working on? Like, is it so total, like, hyperfocused tunnel vision when the idea grabs you like that?

Dylan: Yes. I continue to struggle and try to keep challenging myself with things that aren’t parodies or directly tied to pop culture? I always want to make sure that I’m growing as a writer. But I do think that I found when it comes to, I think I found a really clear link with myself of the path of consuming entertainment and finding the things that I love about it and making a musical parody version of it that has become pretty frictionless. I’m sure that eventually – [laughs] – it’ll get tired, and if I, God willing, if I have other opportunities to do this, maybe eventually it’ll be like, Oh, this is, you know, Dylan MarcAurele up to his old tricks, and he takes this thing, and he takes this thing, and he puts them together. But for now I’m just, you know, I’m trying to make myself laugh, I’m trying to make my husband laugh, I’m trying to create an emotional arc that’s similar to the source material? I’m only ever interested in parodying things that I genuinely think are really good.

And yeah, I also, if I start to slow down or question things or doubt myself, it’s a recipe for disaster.

Sarah: Yep.

Dylan: And I think that a little delusion is really important for any, any creative person.

Sarah: I completely agree. I find that when I am writing, it’s very hard to turn off my editor brain?

Dylan: Yes, that’s got to go away. [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, I need it to just, I just need it to Shut. Up.

Dylan: Yes, lock that away.

Sarah: I can fix it – yeah, I fix it later.

Is this the fastest a musical has ever moved to off-Broadway? Like you, you, you started writing in December, January, and then it’s off-Broadway in, when did it open? May?

Dylan: Yeah, so I don’t know, and I would love to find out if that’s true. It’s also a pain because January, I had three weeks that I wasn’t able to write. So that’s part of the reason that, like, I like to say that it took me three weeks, because it did. I had a little bit in December, a little bit at the top of January, and then I had an unrelated residency for a show I’m working on called Lewis Loves Clark, and then an unrelated residency for two weeks for a show I’m working on called The Passion of the Labradoodle. And then first part, first two weeks of February I was writing. So it may have been the fastest turnaround, but that also might be affected by my distractions during the first part of the year.

Sarah: Fair! Fair enough.

So when I saw this, I ended up seeing this musical because I was doing an interview with an author named Kirsty Greenwood, who writes contemporary romance. And she also is writing a musical. She loves musical theater, and she is writing lyrics and book. The script is called a book, right?

Dylan: Amazing! Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah: So she’s writing lyrics and books and has a friend – book – and is writing, has a friend who’s writing the music. And so we were doing an author interview, and she’s like, Oh, and I’m – she’s British, and she’s like, Oh, I’m coming to New York; I’m going to do some book events. And I was like, Are you going to go see the Heated Rivalry Unauthorized Parody Musical? You know about this. She’s like, Do you think I don’t know about that?

Dylan: [Laughs] Oh my God!

Sarah: And I was like, Okay. Good, good that you know. And I ended up going up to New York to see it with her. And so –

Dylan: Oh!

Sarah: – we, we, we saw it with another author named Ali Rosen, and the three of us were beside ourselves. I don’t think I stopped laughing for the whole thing.

Dylan: Oh my God, that makes me so happy. I’m so glad.

Sarah: So when I told her I was interviewing you, she’s like – [gasps] – Can I ask questions? And I was like, Yes. So I have questions from Kirsty as well.

Dylan: Great, yes! Happy to answer!

Sarah: Kirsty wanted to know, What was it like for you to see the first live performances of this show?

Dylan: It, it was really special. I have, haven’t worked with actors that have the credits that these ones have.

Sarah: Holy cow.

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: They’re so talented.

Dylan: Yeah, they’re so, so great. They’re, like, too good for this. I hadn’t seen the space long before opening. They basically built the theater for this. The producer found a good deal on this space that used to be Sleep No More and this other show called Speakeasy Magick. Totally bizarre, like, sort of abandoned hotel in Chelsea. But I think those kinds of spaces may be the future of off-Broadway, because it is becoming so prohibitively expensive to produce theater?

Sarah: I was going to say it’s cheap!

Dylan: Yeah, and so seeing the theater look like a theater, I was like, Oh my God, oh my God, it’s like a, it’s like a locker room! And they have this cute little pre-show set up. And yeah, and then it was the fan reaction. I just had no idea if it would be received well or terribly, but yeah, it, it was really magical.

Sarah: And one of the things I, I love about this show particularly is that you have incredible talent on stage. You have a, a truly excellent book and lyrics and songs. Like, they’re all –

Dylan: Thanks!

Sarah: – really good. And yet there’s this sort of like high school senior play aspect –

Dylan: [Laughs] Totally!

Sarah: – like with the, with the, with the props and the, the set pieces move a- –

Dylan: Totally. The wigs!

Sarah: Yes! It’s very, very like high school, we have a twelve-dollar budget for our props –

Dylan: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: – department, and yet you have this –

Dylan: I always laugh when I see someone do the curtain shoop!

Sarah: Yes!

Dylan: – to close the curtain. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes, it’s so funny! Did you really tell the actors that they were auditioning for season two of Heated Rivalry?

Dylan: No, no, no! That’s just the – [laughs]

Sarah: I was going to say, ‘cause I’ve heard people talk about that and I’m like, There’s no way!

Dylan: No, they just – this is no diss to the marketing teams of these shows. It happens all the time, but it’s just, I always get the synopses, and it says, like, This hysterical and heartfelt show – and I’m like, No, we have to make it funny. We have to make jokes in the copy of the synopsis. So that, that was the only reason for that.

But yeah, I, I really am a firm, firm believer that theater, even serious theater, should be, like, able to be done on a low budget. I really think that it’s like –

Sarah: Okay.

Dylan: – it goes back to, like, the campfire stories the – I think it is absolutely ridiculous, this path that we have gone down towards spectacle and Broadway being a once-a-year event that you take your family to or whatever?

Sarah: And save up, because –

Dylan: And save up for –

Sarah: – the tickets are so expensive.

Dylan: – and I still, and I mean, I’ll just say on record, I think our tickets are too expensive. We fortunately have a rush available now, so that, that helps a little bit, so check out the digital rush.

But, but yeah, it’s, I really like that homegrown feel, and I think that as long as you’re still playing the emotional stakes, it really works.

Sarah: And it worked so well in part because you could tell the actors were as invested in being tech as they were in being on stage?

Dylan: Oh yeah, they’re hustling. In fact, when it’s this hot in our little performance reports, it affects the timing of the quick changes significantly because they’re covered in sweat. So they’re –

Sarah: Of, of course!

Dylan: – they deserve, like, badges of honor or something. [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s so hard! And, and when it gets this hot, air conditioning in buildings that old cannot keep up.

Dylan: It is terrible. We had to cancel a performance because the HVAC broke, but then it’s fixed now. So hopefully you saw it on a day where it wasn’t too bad, but yeah.

Sarah: Oh no, I was there, and it was like 70 degrees outside.

Dylan: Okay, good, good, good.

Sarah: It was glorious, perfect, and wonderful.

Dylan: Yes, no, I think they fixed it.

Sarah: So Kirsty also wanted me to ask you, and this was also one of my questions: Do you have a personal favorite moment from the show? Hers is Cold Heart, Big Ass.

Dylan: [Laughs] Oh!

Sarah: And mine was the fact that I teared up during Cold Heart, Big Ass –

Dylan: Oh, I’m so glad! I’m so glad.

Sarah: – because of that really poignant moment where, and I won’t spoil it, but he asks –

Dylan: Yeah, yeah!

Sarah: – for a sign.

Dylan: Yeah!

Sarah: And I was just like, I’m not supposed to be choked up at a song like this, but I totally was –

Dylan: No, you are!

Sarah: – teared up. Do you have a favorite moment?

Dylan: I, I, first I have to say, like, my nickname in the rehearsal process was the Fun-Sucker, because –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Dylan: – I was, I was constantly like, No, I need you – I don’t, I don’t mind spoiling that small detail. It’s basically, we, we learn that Ilya has a massive insecurity and he’s mistreated, and he, he basically, he, we find out that his mother has passed away and he’s sort of praying to her and saying, If you’re still watching me, please send me a sign. And I’m skipping all the funny bits? And then Shane appears, and that, to me, is like, if the backbone is emotionally resonant, we can have so much fun on top of that and it be a gut punch? And so I, I was like, No, please don’t do this silly thing while you’re doing that. Please don’t do this silly gesture while you’re doing that. Play it so, so serious.

Sarah: So earnest.

Dylan: Yeah, so earnest. So I’m so glad that that worked for you.

My favorite part of the show is also my least favorite, which is – and I think it’s been spoiled now, so I don’t mind saying – it is the Scott Hunter scene. [Laughs] Before the Scott Hunter scene, my heart stops beating and I cannot breathe because I am so nervous, because there’s an element of chance and an element of randomness, which is that Scott Hunter is played by an audience volunteer. It has never gone poorly to my knowledge, but it is so, so scary as the writer to be like, Please, God, let this work.

Sarah: And putting this –

Dylan: And then when it pays off, it works, yeah, but –

Sarah: Putting this whole section in the hands of an audience member –

Dylan: Exactly.

Sarah: – and you don’t know who you’re going to get.

Dylan: Exactly. So that’s my favorite part because we’ve had a few that I have been crying-laughing because, for whatever reason, often it’s because they’re bashful and they’re like, Please don’t make me say that, but, like, they have this, the more nervous they are, the more wildly supportive and warm the audience is. And so there are some performances where you cannot hear the lyrics of the song that Kip and Maria sing because the audience is roaring over them. So that’s my favorite part.

Sarah: That is such a risk, too. Like, I didn’t –

Dylan: Oh yeah.

Sarah: – I hadn’t really thought of that.

Dylan: Oh yeah.

Sarah: Here’s a binder –

Dylan: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: – somebody here is gonna be Scott Hunter. The Scott Hunter on my, my, it was a Sat-, Sunday matinee?

Dylan: Okay.

Sarah: And it was an ex- – like, this person has a good credit score, is what I’m going to say about –

Dylan: [Laughs] Okay, okay!

Sarah: ‘Cause really nice shoes, really nice outfit –

Dylan: Okay!

Sarah: – and was gorgeous.

Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah: And there was a point where you could sort of see the actors looking at each other like, Oh crap, he’s really good! Crap!

Dylan: Sure, sure, sure! Yeah!

Sarah: Oh wow! Okay! And he, he was so into it? Like, he had to be prompted: No, you have a line. You have to look at the book.

Dylan: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah! He got, he got sucked in.

Sarah: He got so sucked in. And I’m, I, I was like, That had to be a plant. That had to be planned.

Dylan: No, no, never a plant! [Laughs] No!

Sarah: It’s not! Oh my God!

Dylan: No! It’s why I cannot breathe every single time. And it’s so funny; you’re not the first person who said that. Everybody always asks, Is it a plant? We have some shows where they have to go back and get their glasses.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Dylan: We have, we have some shows where words are skipped and we sort of can follow the meaning. But what I find is that the more messy it is, the more endearing it is, and it – basically what I figured out with that scene when I was really stumped about how to fit Scott Hunter in when I was down an actor – I didn’t, I didn’t have anybody else left, basically – [laughs] – is I can make this audience volunteer say whatever I want, and that’s the game of the scene. And of course, I’m not mean about it. In fact, the whole thing is how hot they are.

Sarah: Yeah!

Dylan: And so the, you know, we have this amazing actor Ryan Duncan, who plays Kip, and he takes it so seriously. He has an improv comedy background, but his job there is to make that audience volunteer feel like the hottest man alive. So it’s my favorite part.

Sarah: It’s so, it’s so brilliant.

Dylan: [Laughs]

Sarah: And so scary.

Dylan: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: So scary! Now on, on 1010 WINS, I heard it’s Jimin Moon, right?

Dylan: Jimin, yes.

Sarah: Jimin. Just want to make sure I’m saying that correctly.

Dylan: Yep.

Sarah: So I heard Jimin Moon say that parody is the highest honor that we can bestow upon something, which I totally agree with. And obviously you mentioned you’ve done The Real Housewives of New York; you did M3GAN. And parody is among my favorite genres because it merges my love for something, while also subverting it and highlighting the deeper aspects of the narrative below the surface. Like my –

Dylan: Totally.

Sarah: – my website is twenty-one years old, and we’ve basically been reviewing, discussing, and making parody commentary about romance fiction –

Dylan: Exactly.

Sarah: – for that long.

Dylan: Yep.

Sarah: It is a sign that you both know something deeply and love it, and can also be like, And also this part is ridiculous?

Dylan: It’s a little ridiculous, yeah!

Sarah: This is like, Why are there so many mullets? We don’t need this many mullets in the world. And yet are they on the covers all the time? Yes, they are.

What is it about parody that works so well for you creatively? And by the way, anyone who tells you, Oh, Dylan is doing that parody nonsense again, please send them to me because I have a, I have a, I have a TED Talk for them, and they will feel bad –

Dylan: Oh, thank you –

Sarah: – when I am done –

Dylan: – thank you.

Sarah: – because that’s hot garbage. [Laughs]

Dylan: No, you’re so, you’re so right. I totally agree. It becomes this, it becomes this opportunity for me to put any commentary that I have whatsoever onto the thing, any passing thought I have upon the thing. You know, I, I think my equivalent here, when you’re talking about romance novels, is I am absolutely addicted to Real Housewives rewatch podcasts.

Sarah: Absolutely!

Dylan: I will, I will be listening to like three different episodes of the same commentary on an episode that I might not have even seen yet. Because it’s just –

Sarah: Doesn’t matter.

Dylan: Yeah! It’s just like I want to hear the, yeah, the observations, and it’s, it’s never, like, against it; it’s always in celebration of it. And then it also allows me to comment on or observe fan response to the thing that I’m parodying, or some current event about an actor or something like that. And so it, it allows me to put everything in this giant melting pot and just totally just play for eighty minutes.

Sarah: Which is really fun, because you get to pick out your favorite moments –

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: – like you said, without having dissected it.

Dylan: Yep.

Sarah: But you’re, but you’re grabbing the, the moments that had the most emotional resonance –

Dylan: Totally.

Sarah: – and then building around them.

We both know Chris DeRosa, who hosts Fixing Famous People, who connected us.

Dylan: Yes.

Sarah: Thank you, Chris! And –

Dylan: Yes, he’s amazing.

Sarah: – he did an interview with me about Real Housewives, because I am not a Real Housewives watcher because secondhand embarrassment is deeply painful for me, and I cannot –

Dylan: Oh, sure.

Sarah: – I cannot get through it, as much as – and like you, I love listening to people talk about it and –

Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah!

Sarah: – talk about the dynamics, but I’m like, I can’t watch it ‘cause I’m just like, my ears –

Dylan: Totally.

Sarah: – and my shoulders are now wedded. I can’t. It’s just –

Dylan: Completely.

Sarah: – against my personality type. But I love it, and I love hearing about it.

Dylan: Yep.

Sarah: Same thing with The Bachelor, which is also very popular among romance readers.

Dylan: Mmm! Yes, yes.

Sarah: And I know that Chris says that Real Housewives is conflict resolution porn. You are basically watching conflict resolution porn.

Dylan: Yeah!

Sarah: Do you have any insights as to what you think Heated Rivalry is, in terms of –

Dylan: Oh! You know, I –

Sarah: – what it’s doing?

Dylan: Yeah! I, I think it’s actually, there probably is a similarity. It’s – and I’m not the first to point this out, but it’s, it’s like good communication porn. It’s like learning who you are porn. It’s like – [laughs] – self-acceptance porn. It’s –

Sarah: Yes.

Dylan: – it’s men being vulnerable porn. I, I really think that’s what it is. [Laughs]

Sarah: And I, one of the aspects about the, the fandom that has grown and grown around Heated Rivalry is that people are really, people who have never encountered romance, who’ve never encountered the gay hockey romance, who have never engaged with any kind of material like this are like, Oh my gosh, men have to manage their own emotions?

Dylan: Totally, totally.

Sarah: Oh!

Dylan: I, and I really hope that it is not just a fantasy and that it can have an effect. I have noticed a little bit of, you know, the straight men realizing that it’s cooler to be down with Heated Rivalry, you know, than to be against it.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Dylan: And so I’m hoping that that, you know – look, I, I have no faith in, in, you know, much of this country at this point anymore, but – [laughs]

Sarah: Oh, the devil you say! [Laughs]

Dylan: – I hope that maybe, that we can see additional steps in that cultural impact.

Sarah: I agree. And I also think that there’s a wide, widening chasm between the, sort of the public persona, the news reporting of America, what America says it is, and then what actual Americans are?

Dylan: Yeah, yeah, it’s true!

Sarah: Like, that distance is getting wider and wider, and the Heated Rivalry people, you know, you, you – this is gonna sound very woo-woo, but you vibrate in an authentic frequency when you –

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: – fully engage and embrace what you love.

Dylan: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Sarah: So we can find each other!

Dylan: Yep!

Sarah: Kirsty also wanted me to ask you, and I love this question, What or who are your comedy influences? She says, This was so steadfast in its silliness, and I wondered what you grew up laughing at.

Dylan: This is so, this is so nice of a question. I do have a few comedy influences. Scary Movie, the early ones were pretty big for me.

Sarah: I can see why, yes!

Dylan: Yeah. And, like, I’m a, I’m a big SNL fan. That said, honestly, I think the thing that I have figured out in my own writing is that my influences draw much more from wholesome family entertainment? [Laughs] And so I, I have found that pretty much my formula that I like is in mapping the absurd or sexual or mature or, you know, whatever R-rated onto these beloved, like, yeah, like family movies. I think of, like, everything from Air Bud to, like, Disney Channel original movies to, to, to Disney musicals. And I think that, like, that’s not probably what people are expecting when they go to see Heated Rivalry parody, but do you kind of see, since you’ve seen it, like, see that relationship there, that there’s a wholesomeness?

Sarah: Absolutely. And that’s part of what gives it its charm. There is this incredible amount of subversive, frankly, very raunchy –

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: – very, very tongue-in-cheek and also tongue in other places –

Dylan: [Laughs]

Sarah: – quality to it, but then also the very, very wholesome, earnest performance –

Dylan: Yes, yes.

Sarah: – of these characters who truly are trying to be themselves.

Dylan: Totally, totally.

Sarah: I completely agree. Have you seen Rob Anderson’s Netflix special?

Dylan: No, I haven’t!

Sarah: Okay. So do you know who Rob Anderson is?

Dylan: Does he do the, like, 7th Heaven?

Sarah: Yes!

Dylan: Yes, okay, yeah.

Sarah: He has a book called Gay Science: The Totally Scientific Examination…

Dylan: Yes, I’m familiar, yes.

Sarah: So he has an, a Netflix [YouTube] special called Are You Afraid of the ‘90s? And if I wanted to trap you, I would put it under a box with a stick. It is so –

Dylan: Totally!

Sarah: – it is so going to be your jam.

Dylan: The clips that he posts are exactly the thing that have influenced me so much. Those, like, yeah, the mom finding the drugs and, and being there for her kid. Like, those, those moments are so – and you see that all over the Heated Rivalry parody. It’s like –

Sarah: Exactly.

Dylan: – you know, yeah! [Laughs] And then I just put nonsense on top of it. So I have Shane’s mom going, What is it with you lately? You never answer our calls; your RBIs have never been lower. I say RBIs ‘cause I don’t know hockey stuff! [Laughs] You know, it gets a laugh. So it’s like, What happened to that sweet boy I knew, the one we took to London all those years ago, kept begging us to see Graham Norton? So then it’s like me just, like, putting in little things that he, like, might be gay! And, like, what’s about London? What’s, what’s gay plus London? Okay, Graham Norton, you know? [Laughs] It’s, it’s so stupid, but, but that emotional undercurrent is the mom trying to connect with the son, and it comes from those old, like those ‘90s movies.

Sarah: Yes, where the, where the dialogue is clunky, like they’re actually speaking in –

Dylan: Yeah, yeah!

Sarah: – like bricks of cheese are just falling –

Dylan: Yes, exactly!

Sarah: – out of their faces. [Laughs]

Dylan: Yeah, but, but there’s a lot of sweetness and heart there too, yeah.

Sarah: Yes. Are You Afraid of the ‘90s on Netflix would be so your jam?

Dylan: I have to check it out. Thank you.

Sarah: It’s, it’s perfect.

Now, I know you’re taking the show to Toronto. Hell yeah! Congratulations.

Dylan: Thank you!

Sarah: That’s amazing. Is there any word as to whether or not the folks involved will attend?

Dylan: I think they’ve, they’ve been invited, so I’m really, really hoping that they come. They’ve been invited to New York. I think they’re understandably very busy? And also –

Sarah: Just a little.

Dylan: Just a little. Rachel Reid also said in an interview that she, you know, she considers it a badge of honor, but also indicated that, like, it might be a little bit weird for her? So I’m, like, Totally fine, totally get that. I can only imagine.

Sarah: This whole experience has to be weird for her.

Dylan: [Sighs] I, I can’t even imagine. I just, I hope that she feels so much love among all of the chaos and the noise. But –

Sarah: I mean, this book came out in 2019. She must be like –

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: – What the hell?

[Laughter]

Dylan: Yeah, I know. I know. So yes, they’ve been invited. I’m really hoping that it works out. I, I, you know, I, I think that they would like it? And of course, there’s that part of me that’s like – [laughs] – Oh God, like, what if they’re offended? But I really, I hope that the love comes through.

Sarah: I don’t think so, because they don’t seem like people who take themselves super-duper-duper seriously? I mean –

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: – you’ve seen Letterkenny, which is Jacob Tierney’s other project? Again, I’m just going to –

Dylan: No! I’ve heard it’s great, yeah.

Sarah: I’m just going to sit here and recommend things for you to do when –

Dylan: No, thank you.

Sarah: – when your air, when your air con’s not working?

Dylan: I’m also so, I’m normally very, like, anti sports, and am I right that that’s sports related, or did I make that up?

Sarah: No, Shoresy, which is a spinoff –

Dylan: Shoresy. Okay, got it.

Sarah: – of Letterkenny, is about, like, rec league hockey –

Dylan: Okay.

Sarah: – but the Indigenous rep, the cultural tensions, the actors are amazing. Letterkenny is exactly your jam: it is wholesomely profane.

Dylan: Oh my gosh. Thank you for recommending that! Okay, I can’t wait.

Sarah: It, it’s so funny because when I heard that Jacob Tierney was the one adapting Heated Rivalry, we don’t have a great history in romance of good adaptations. Sometimes they’re –

Dylan: Mmm.

Sarah: – very awkward or cheesy, or it’s like a, like a ‘90s TV mini-series –

Dylan: Sure.

Sarah: – like, you know, Judith Krantz, I’ll Take Manhattan, like old, like big shoulder pads, big hair, Lifetime movies, Hallmark. That’s the, the –

Dylan: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – the zone we’re in? And then we had Bridgerton, which was like, Whoa! This is what it’s like when you spend lots of money –

Dylan: Yep.

Sarah: – on a romance! Hot damn! And then –

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: – Heated Rivalry was in adaptation. I was like, Listen, if Jacob Tierney is doing it, it’s going to be brilliant. It’s going to be fine. It will be, it –

Dylan: Oh, you knew, yeah.

Sarah: It will be picked up in the States somewhere –

Dylan: Wow.

Sarah: – because he is so good at this. And I was like –

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: – If the guy who writes Letterkenny and has directed it and plays a character in it is going to be doing Heated Rivalry, I was like, This is in the best hands. I love being right; it’s super satisfying.

Dylan: Yes, yeah!

Sarah: But again, Letterkenny would be completely your jam. Totally your jam.

Dylan: No, I, I, and I hear what you’re saying, too. It’s like, I think there are a lot of moments where my writing is deliberately leaning like Hallmark/Lifetime, but it works because you’re mapping on the profane to it? But –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Dylan: – it makes perfect sense that, you know, someone like Jacob, who has, who has an edge and a nuance, like, that’s going to be a better fit to, to really make a romance novel come alive, yeah.

Sarah: I want to ask you about your creative process, because one thing I do before I do an interview is I do research, A, to make sure I’m not asking you questions you’ve been asked a million times, but also to, like, see what other things you’ve talked about. And the part in Vogue where a major part of your work is making lists.

Dylan: Oh yeah, it’s like ninety percent of it. [Laughs]

Sarah: And then you make more lists. How –

Dylan: Yes.

Sarah: – do lists work in your creative process? ‘Cause I love a list. It’s among my favorite things.

Dylan: Sure, sure! So, I mean, I think that sometimes as creatives – here I go; I’m, like, on a pedestal already.

Sarah: Please! Like –

Dylan: [Laughs]

Sarah: – the soapbox is yours. Go ahead.

Dylan: We think, I don’t know enough, you know; I’m not good enough. I, I, like – and the truth is, you do. And so I, like, I might think, Oh God, who am I to write a show about this or that? And, and before long, I can’t write a show about anything. And so I find a lot of the joy comes in exhausting my brain of the things that it knows about everything. So, so I’m making a list of all the things that I know about Canada, every single thing. So what, what’s that? Maple leaves, you know? I’m thinking literally the most, like, anything that pops into my head. I’m, okay, Russia. Okay, what are all the things that I know about Russia? So I’m thinking, Okay, Fabergé eggs –

Sarah: Cold.

Dylan: – cold, exactly.

Sarah: Yeah.

Dylan: You know, Kremlin; you know, the Cold War; Anastasia; Chess, the musical.

And so, and then, you know, I’m, I’m making a list of, okay, so we, we use this, like, narrative device, this frame device of the Susans. So I have this very specific idea of a Minnesota mom of a certain age who, you know – then I list everything that might be in her home. And some of this doesn’t even make it on the page, but it helps me build the world of who she is, and, you know, I, I think it’s not that she, she doesn’t have a sign that says “Live, Laugh, Love,” but she does have a sign that says “Family.”

And so it’s like those – [laughs] – those things help. Like, before long, I now have forty-five lists of things, and I’ve basically, without realizing it, written my show. Because then I can, I can go and – so now I have all of my notes about all the episodes that I took, and I have all of my lists about free associations about every single thing. So I basically have a web of all of the words that are going to even be in my eighty-minute show?

And then my next step is that I just think about the structure of a musical that I like to see. And so those often do follow a formula, in the same way that a lot of genres follow a formula. It’s often going to start with an opening number. Well, I guess it always is. And then it’s going to, there’s going to be an “I want” song; there’s going to be a –

Sarah: Yeah, you were very on-the-nose with that.

Dylan: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: “What We Want”! [Laughs]

Dylan: “What We Want.” And then there’s going to be an act one cliffhanger, act one finale cliffhanger. There’s going to be a beautiful 11 o’clock number? And so then I’m taking those notes that I made of the most significant moments that made the most impact on me and I’m mapping them on to my structure.

So I think a common mistake that a lot of people make when they’re doing this is they think, they just look at what’s in the source material and they say, Okay, so this happened here, so that has to be a song. This happened here, so that has to be a song. But what actually can be more unexpected and a lot richer is, Okay, where’s my 11 o’clock number where the protagonist is moved to solve their problem? And that’s when I’m like, Okay, what if it’s that dinner with Rose where Rose accepts Shane? And so that becomes, you know, the song “You’re Not Straight.” So – [laughs]

Sarah: Also on the nose, perfectly so.

Dylan: Yeah, totally, totally! Yeah, and then, and then I, Oh, okay, so that’s gonna be my, my 11 o’clock number? Let’s go to my list that I made of all of the funny things that closeted gay guys do, speaking from personal experience.

[Laughter]

Dylan: And so – and, and a few of them are bound to rhyme. And so that’s really the process. I, I, I don’t know if that, like, overly demystifies it, but that’s it.

Sarah: No, it’s, it’s fascinating, because it sounds to me, and correct me if I’m wrong, it sounds like you are starting with character and setting as the foundational grounding elements of what is going to become both a parody and, with some elements of fantasy about it.

Dylan: Definitely, definitely. And, and there’s also a lot of asking what if? It’s like, Okay, if this is true, if Ilya is cold and, and impenetrable, what if the reason for that is that he’s self-conscious about his ass, you know?

Sarah: [Snorts]

Dylan: [Laughs] And so those what-ifs can also be really powerful. And I think that applies even to, to not-comedy, but it’s, it’s just a, a really helpful question that I think I learned from, like, the, more the comedy world, like the improv and sketch world? Like an observation, and what else might be true?

Sarah: Right. And here’s this obvious thing that everyone would think – no pun intended – is an asset –

Dylan: Totally, totally.

Sarah: – but for him it’s, it’s a great liability.

Dylan: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: When you saw the actors performing these different roles, did, what did, what did they bring to it that impressed you?

Dylan: There’s always cool surprises. I never expected that we would get a Shane Hollander who is like a world-class dancer. So from the very beginning, Jimin is, like, basically putting their foot behind their head because they can. [Laughs]

Sarah: Right.

Dylan: And so that’s kind of a, it’s, it’s those little things where it’s like, Oh, the actor has a, a skill that they can really use?

Sarah: Yes.

Dylan: Ryan Duncan, who plays Kip and a number of other roles, is just really hysterical in, in a wig, you know, in drag. He has done this before. He originated, I believe, the role that Jim Parsons now plays in Titanique?

Sarah: No way!

Dylan: Yeah, yeah –

Sarah: Wow!

Dylan: – yeah. So he’s, he’s the funniest, and he gets applause most nights when he – [laughs] – when he enters in the club scene, “All the Things She Said” scene in Heated Rivalry parody, just as someone that I called Beautiful Young Woman. I think it’s, it’s the, the blonde bob, it’s the beautiful dress, and it’s just the way that he carries himself? So, like –

Sarah: It’s totally embodied, yes.

Dylan: – totally embodied. Do you remember this character?

Sarah: Oh, absolutely I do!

Dylan: And so it’s those things that I never could have, like, imagined, those small things? Yeah, and, you know, Cherry Torres, who plays Shane’s mom and Maria and a bunch of other roles, just has this voice that I could just listen to for the rest of my life. She, she was just in Hamilton for seven years? [Laughs] And so it’s so cool to me that we get someone, like, that legit, like, vocally? And I think that comes through in, like, you know, the power ballad that she sings with Shane at the beginning called “A Heavy Load.” And so, yeah, they, they all bring something.

Sarah: Not to mention her riffing on the word “girl.”

Dylan: Yes. [Laughs] She, she’s amazing with that. I was like, we need someone who can do –

Sarah: Who can do a full riff!

Dylan: – the vocals down. Yes, exactly.

Sarah: I was wondering this, ‘cause you do use “All the Things She Said.” Did you have to get a license for that?

Dylan: Oh yeah. Yeah, they, they get a piece of the pie, t.A.T.u. The, like –

Sarah: I was, I was going to say –

Dylan: – eight writers of that song. [Laughs]

Sarah: – that, that has to, like, I know music rights are a very expensive portion of any –

Dylan: Totally.

Sarah: – any production.

Dylan: And I, I was sad to, I had to lose, I used “Chasing Cars” in the hospital scene; I had to lose that. [Laughs] I had some – this is a little bit more niche, but I used a bunch of Dave Malloy underscoring from Natasha, Pierre & The Great Comet of 1812 in the Russian scene. So I was very sad to lose those, ‘cause it was like one or two people when we did the concert version would, like, cheer when they heard that, and so.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Dylan: But, but you know, I get it. Dave Malloy has a lot of projects going on now. He’s, he’s doing Black Swan at the A.R.T., and so I think he –

Sarah: Oh damn.

Dylan: – just didn’t want to sully his name. [Laughs]

Sarah: I, I understand, but it’s still a bummer, because when you pack a show with that many jokes on that many levels, like the music people get this joke –

Dylan: Yes, totally.

Sarah: – and the, and the wine moms get this joke –

Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – it’s all built in.

One question I, I had, ‘cause we were discussing the show afterward over big honkin’ gin and tonics –

Dylan: Oh, amazing.

Sarah: – did Jimin Moon, like, study Shane? Because they’re – like, study the actor’s performance, because there are moments where, like, when he’s, like, super drugged up after he breaks his collarbone. He had the same facial expressions, he made some of the same body movements, and I was like, He’s really good at almost, like, if you overlaid their performances, like if you overlaid the visual –

Dylan: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – they were almost identical. And then he, and then Jimin would go in a completely different direction. Did he –

Dylan: Totally.

Sarah: – study Shane? Do you know? Because –

Dylan: I can’t speak to if, if –

Sarah: – gosh!

Dylan: – Jimin studied Shane. I, I will say that, like, from the very beginning, I was emphatic about all elements supporting what we saw in the TV show. So I think that there’s – again, I was the Fun Sucker in the room – Jimin has a line in that hospital song that’s, “And I hear your dad is worm food now, so that conflict is gone.” I, I said – and originally I think Jimin, like, understandably was, like, sort of playing into the joke of that and sort of like raising their eyebrows a bit. And I was just like, I need you to say this as sweetly and as Shane-ly as you possibly can? And then it gets a way bigger laugh.

So it’s also, you know, the costumes. When people see that reveal of the light blue collared shirt, people lose their minds, and I think it just brings them back to that cozy feeling. And in the orchestrations, which I worked really hard on, I was like, No, there wasn’t a, you know, kind of like stomp and holler, folk-y underscore throughout that hospital scene in the, in the TV show, but it’s how I felt. I felt –

Sarah: Yeah.

Dylan: – that warmth and that, like, the drugs make it so that Shane is no longer pretending; he doesn’t have that ability anymore. So that, to me, comes in this, like, really sweet, like, electric guitar strum. And so I think it’s all of those things combined make you feel like, Oh my God, it’s Shane.

Sarah: Yes, it really, really did. To say nothing of Jay Armstrong Johnson’s –

Dylan: [Laughs]

Sarah: – incredible mole work –

Dylan: Yes, yes, the mole work!

Sarah: – and did he glue the, is there sticky tape on the cigarette? Is it, is it –

Dylan: I don’t know!

Sarah: – has it got, like –

Dylan: I don’t think so!

Sarah: – double-sided tape that just, hanging off his lip all the time? Like, the gestures and the –

Dylan: It’s – yeah, there’s so many cigarette – yes, there’s always, there’s cigarettes all over the floor, in his ears, and backstage. Yes, so many cigarettes. [Laughs] Yeah, the mole work is fantastic. I keep on noticing new details, too, from, like, the, our, our props person, Brendan, and, like, seeing different signs that are at the beginning with the wine moms. They’re so funny. There’s these three cats that – [laughs] – I only noticed recently. And so, yeah.

Sarah: So what is next for you?

Dylan: So I, I kind of get a break from Heated Rivalry now as they go to Toronto and the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

I just had a reading on Monday for my new show, The Passion of the Labradoodle. I have no idea if it’s going to be anything, but I have wanted to tell this story for a long time. I need practice pitching it. Can I, can I, can I summarize it? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes, please do! ‘Cause I, my whole, my whole job, I receive pitches from authors who want to be on the show –

Dylan: Oh, great! Okay.

Sarah: – from people who want me to review their book.

Dylan: [Laughs] Yes.

Sarah: Yeah. Just tell me everything.

Dylan: Yes, so: I, I stumbled upon this news article about the inventor of the first doodle, i.e. poodle crossbreed. And it was in the 1980s, so not that long ago.

Sarah: Right.

Dylan: And this man in Australia who was a trainer of guide dogs – and side note: I have wanted to write about guide dogs for a long time, because my first summer job was at a guide dog foundation in Connecticut.

Sarah: Oh cool!

Dylan: And they just did the most amazing work. It’s so, it’s incredible what these dogs can do. They’re, they’re the happiest animals. It’s, it’s so moving and funny. I would play at lunch every day with this dog, Igor, who was a flunk-out of the program, though we don’t say flunk-out, who eventually, after my time there, became, found his calling and became a bomb sniffer for the Super Bowl.

So anyway, I have wanted to write about guide dogs for a long time. Anyway, so this, this person created the first labradoodle to help a visually impaired woman in Hawaii whose husband had terrible allergies. It was a massive success, da-da-da-da. However, flash for-, flash forward to now, and he says it’s the regret of his life, because he unknowingly triggered the phenomenon of designer dogs.

So it’s this sort of like Promethean tale, and it’s a little bit absurd, but it’s a little bit, it’s a little bit real, and it’s, it’s about guide dogs, and it’s about doodles, and it’s about fake service animals, and it’s, it’s about everything, and it’s about Australia. And so I’m, I’m trying to craft this sort of epic, almost like Come From Away type musical that is about all of these things, and I don’t know if it’s going to go anywhere, but it’s my, it’s my current big passion project. [Laughs]

Sarah: I love that! So you are both celebrating the joy of dogs and taking a good look at the dark side of designer dog-dom.

Dylan: Totally, totally. And it’s, and it’s, it’s still up in the air. I’m still learning more, and my opinions on all the issues of it are evolving, and the last thing I want to do is write preachy theater, but I do want to teach people some things, because I think a lot of people are, would be surprised to, to learn about, yeah, some of the dark side.

Sarah: Oh yeah. It reminds me of the guy who invented the, the K cup. The coff- –

Dylan: Yes, exactly!

Sarah: This, the, it’s, the guy who invented the K cup says, This is my biggest regret; I’ve created an environmental disaster.

Dylan: Totally. We see it from the person who invented the plastic bag –

Sarah: Yeah.

Dylan: – the person who invented the pop-up ad. There’s all of these things.

Sarah: This would be a good number. All these guys: I invented the pop-up.

Dylan: Totally, totally!

Sarah: You could have all of them come out, and then the end is the, the labradoodle. I invented the doodle.

Dylan: And it’s, and it’s so hard because a lot of people would really disagree. They’d say, You know what, I, I have a doodle because of allergies, and I never would have been able to have a dog otherwise. And so I wanted to hold all viewpoints. I just – yeah! So that’s in development.

I have another show called Pop Off, Michelangelo! that played in London. [Laughs] And I’m really trying to get a production in New York. And so looking at something maybe happening next spring, maybe in time for Pride? So fingers crossed on that.

Sarah: Fingers very crossed.

Dylan: It is a Renaissance comedy about the life of Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci. It’s basically me, like, negotiating my relationship with my Catholic upbringing and – [laughs] – some fun along the way.

Sarah: A very rich text!

Dylan: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Sarah: Now, you mentioned earlier, is it Lewis, Lewis slash Clark?

Dylan: Oh, Lewis Loves Clark. Yeah, so –

Sarah: Loves Clark, sorry.

Dylan: No, no, no!

Sarah: Not the same thing.

[Laughter]

Dylan: So one of my first collaborators, who I met in college, like the first week that we both got there, he and I have started writing this show called Lewis Loves Clark, and it is a tragedy/comedy about the Lewis and Clark expedition. There’s a lot of evidence that Lewis probably was homosexual and probably had feelings for Clark? And Clark was not a great guy. He, after the expedition, went on to run the Trail of Tears. And it’s sort of a look at our – I say our – it’s a, it’s a look at a lot of, like, gay men’s attraction to straightness and power and privilege and what that means? And it also is, like, full of some of the most insane true facts about the expedition that you could imagine.

And so we have a, we have a reading with MCC later this year, and we, we just attached Robert O’Hara, who directed Slave Play. And so we’re really excited about that. Fingers crossed for that to advance as well.

Sarah: Dude, that’s so many good things! Congratulations!

Dylan: Thank you, thank you.

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Now, I am fundamentally a books prop, podcast, so I always ask this question; however, if you do not have an answer, that is fine. Are there any books that you’re reading right now or have read that you want to tell people about?

Dylan: Yes. I’m going to make sure that I get it all right –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Dylan: – because –

Sarah: As he runs through his apartment to the books!

Dylan: – it’s really, really good. Okay, so it’s called The Fight of Our Lives: AIDS in America, and it’s by –

Sarah: Ooh!

Dylan: – David Levithan and Gabriel Duckels. Are you a fan of David Levithan? Maybe, you might know him from –

Sarah: I am. I do –

Dylan: Okay.

Sarah: – know that name.

Dylan: So David’s a great friend of mine and a mentor, and he just came out with this book that he wrote with Gabriel, and it is a Young-Adult-geared – but that sort of means me, because I’m, I’m illiterate? – nonfiction piece about AIDS, and it is so interesting. It’s a, they, they combine poetry and, like, and interviews and photos, and it’s so engaging. And half the time I’m like, I cannot believe that I was never taught any of this. So I know that it’s not exactly up the lane of this podcast. It’s, you know, nonfiction. It’s about –

Sarah: No, we go everywhere; don’t worry.

Dylan: Okay, good. But I have just been totally absorbed in it. And for a nonfiction book, you know, about a deadly virus to, like, engage me this much, I just, I think it’s so great.

Sarah: I’m, I’m fifty-one, so I’m old enough to have lived through the AIDS crisis? Although I was a young, like, suburban girl in Pittsburgh? It is shocking to me how my kids were not taught much about the AIDS epidemic. And I’m like, No, you don’t understand. You do not understand.

Dylan: It is, it is truly wild. There’s an entire chapter that I just read about Ryan White. Does that name ring a bell?

Sarah: Yeah. Oh, absolutely! I was –

Dylan: It is –

Sarah: – very much alive and conscious for Ryan White.

Dylan: – absolutely wild. For, for listeners that don’t know it, and you might do a better job explaining than I would. This, you know, this boy, I think from hemophilia –

Sarah: Like, blood trans-, blood transfusion, yeah.

Dylan: – wound up getting a, yeah, blood transfusion, developed HIV/AIDS, and kind of became the poster child of AIDS, while queer people, and black and brown people especially, were, like, dying, dying, dying. And so it’s this totally bizarre thing that, like,
took Ryan White to actually get the nation to listen, and he became the poster boy, and he was a really good poster boy, because he and his mother consistently were saying, Hey, like, we need to help these other people right now.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dylan: And you get these crazy – like I, I don’t, I didn’t know enough about Ronald Reagan. I want to kill him again. I – [laughs] – I am so, like – the fact that he, like, was even allowed at Ryan White’s funeral is –

Sarah: Oh, it’s –

Dylan: – so, like, infuriating to me?

Sarah: – outrageous.

Dylan: But anyway, it’s a, it’s a really interesting book, I swear.

Sarah: That’s wonderful! Would you like another nonfiction that might possibly inspire a show?

Dylan: Please, yes!

Sarah: It’s called Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online by Fortesa Latifi.

Dylan: Oh God –

Sarah: So –

Dylan: – I’m scared already.

Sarah: So basically, Fortesa interviewed family vloggers, but also starts way back in the days of the mommy bloggers in the late ‘90s and the 2000s, where women were sort of showing up online and being like, Actually, motherhood kind of sucks sometimes, and I’m going to tell you how it sucks. But what happened is it evolved into visual social media. You have families where the children’s performance online is supporting the entire family. And how toxic and exploitative –

Dylan: Yeah.

Sarah: – and damaging that is. There are no laws, except in two states, to protect their income, so they could come of age and there’s nothing, even though they gave up a lot of their childhood. There are stories about young girls whose first periods became merch deals, so they had to, like –

Dylan: My God.

Sarah: – talk about Kotex and whatever, because it made them money. People having extra kids because, oh, you get that Disney contract. Once you age out of Disney, or once you age out of Pampers, you need to have another person, ‘cause those are hundreds of thousands of dollars a month. Like, billions of dollars are in this industry, and it’s super exploitative. But at the same time, you have these kids who are like, No, I love it! I love performing! This is so great! I have a fandom! And I’m like, Oh boy. It’s so messy, but also so revealing and fascinating.

Dylan: This sounds completely up my alley. So much overlap –

Sarah: I’m so glad I met you, dude! I’m the worst –

Dylan: No, seriously!

Sarah: – most expensive person!

[Laughter]

Dylan: No! There’s a lot of similarity, I hate to say it, but with the doodle thing, it’s like, you know –

Sarah: Totally! It’s absolutely similar –

Dylan: – the puppy mills –

Sarah: – to the doodle thing.

Dylan: – you know, and the, the exploitation, but also the, like, the, the sometimes nice side and the, and the people who say, Oh, I wouldn’t change a thing! You know, it’s –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dylan: – what a mess! But I’m, I’m super captivated by that.

Sarah: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. I know it is –

Dylan: Thank you!

Sarah: – super freaking hot, and I deeply appreciate it. Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Dylan: Yes! So I’m on Instagram @dylanmarcaurele. That’s spelled D-Y-L-A-N-M-A-R-C-A-U-R-E-L-E. And you can also follow the show @heatedrivalryparody. And if you’re –

Sarah: Yes, you can!

Dylan: – if you’re going to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival by any chance, you’ll see us there. Or if you’re in Toronto or New York.

Sarah: Is the original cast going to Fringe?

Dylan: We’ll have three different casts. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, hot diggety!

Dylan: Yes.

Sarah: More people get to be these roles? I’m so excited about it.

Dylan: More people, and I, you know, I’ve seen some tapes, and there’s, yeah, there’s a lot of talent. I think we actually have a little bit more pull now because the show in New York has done well? So I’m really excited to see, yeah, to see those shows.

Sarah: People are going to want this in bold on their CVs.

Dylan: [Laughs] I, I hope so.

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. I have to thank Dylan MarcAurele for connecting with me; I have to think Chris DeRosa for connecting me with Dylan so I could ask all of these questions. I want to thank Kirsty Greenwood for her questions, and most of all I want to thank everyone who was involved in that show, because truly it was glorious.

I will have links to where you can get your tickets, and I have some news! I have lots of pieces of news since this was recorded! I have news! Some updates:

First of all, Heated Rivalry: The Unauthorized Musical Parody is among three Heated Rivalry shows playing at the Edinburgh Fringe. And it has just been announced that it will be in London in October. You can buy tickets to the New York, Toronto, Edinburgh, and London shows on their website, and I will link it in the show notes. If you would like to memorize it, it is heatedrivalryparody.com.

But this will be one of two Heated Rivalry musicals in London, which means that there’s a – [laughs] – there might be a heated Heated Rivalry rivalry. [Laughs] Heated Heated Rivalry rivalry! I’m never going to not laugh at that! Oh!

I have other good news, too! Jimin Moon, who starred as Shane, is moving to the Broadway revival of The Rocky Horror Show at Studio 54, taking over the role of Rocky. That is a big move. His final performance in the Heated Rivalry parody musical was on August 14th.

And – [desk drumroll] – there’s going to be a full cast recording! Everyone involved is part of this huge, huge endeavor to bring every incredible song to the soundtrack. I cannot wait for more people to hear Cold Heart, Large Ass.

I will have links to all these articles, and when I find out where you can order the cast recording, I will definitely let you know.

I always end with a bad joke, and no – [laughs] – heated Heated Rivalry rivalry was not the joke, though it does make me laugh! [Laughs more] This joke is for Canada! Hello, my Canadian listeners.

Why do Canadians have sticky boots?

[Laughs] Give up? Why do Canadians have sticky boots?

Maple stirrups!

[Laughs] Oh boy! I’m going to have to edit out some of my laughing. This is a lot of laughing. That is from a person whose – I’m, I have to wipe my eyes – that is a – [laughs] – that joke is from a person whose username was deleted, so thank you, anonymous user. You have made me laugh. 

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week. And in the words of my favorite retired podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening. You’re welcome for talking!

[end of music]