537. Romance Cliche Throwdown with Amanda

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 537 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and Amanda and I are having a cliché battle. What does that mean? Well, my brain is a very silly place, and I said that we should each make lists of romance clichés, tropes, and archetypes and try to name them at each other without repeating. Is this the strangest thing my brain has come up with this week? Probably not, but it was a lot of fun. So can you out-cliché the two of us? The heat will be on!

Hello and thank you to our Patreon community. Hi, folks! If you’ve supported the show, you keep me going, you make sure every episode has a transcript from garlicknitter – hi, garlicknitter! – and you have bonus episodes! And a Discord, and the Discord is a sunny, lovely, welcoming place. So if you would like to join the Patreon community, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

And hello to Roxanna, who is our newest member!

I also want to say a very special hello to two seniors at my son’s high school: hello, Anjali and Sam. I’m so excited that you found the website and that you listen to the podcast. Welcome to the romance genre. If I can help you with book recs, you know who to ask.

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All right, are you ready for the cliché battle? It’s going down. I’m yelling about clichés. On with the podcast.

[music]

Sarah: That’s not your house!

Amanda: It’s not! I’m at Brian’s; we had our first in-person D&D session yesterday.

Sarah: Ooh, how did it go?

Amanda: It went so well? I’ve never played in person before.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: It’s always been over Discord.

Sarah: Makes sense! But still, pretty awesome!

Amanda: Yeah, there were five of us and Brian was DMing, and we had snacks. I think we played from about 1:30, 1:45 to like 5:00. It was a lot of fun.

Sarah: That’s awesome! Have you played Flamecraft yet?

Amanda: We did! We did!

Sarah: Tell me what you think, ‘cause I still have mine in the box.

Amanda: So Brian and I played it. It is a lot of fun! It’s very cute. It doesn’t feel, like, über competitive? You are competing against each other, but, like, it’s pretty low stakes. I thought I was going to win, and Brian did some crafty shit in the last round and, and wound up winning. It’s beautiful? The game is beautiful –

Sarah: Cool.

Amanda: – with the art and the play mat. But yeah, we played it over the weekend. It was really fun; I liked it.

Sarah: Awesome. Well worth the backing the, the Kickstarter.

Amanda: Yeah, and Hot Dog, the little plush dragon is on my nightstand at Brian’s.

Sarah: Aww!

Amanda: Yes. Right next to a giant bouquet of blooming peonies, so I’ll send a photo. [Laughs]

Sarah: Aw! Yeah! Please send a photo! That’s adorable!

Amanda: – of Hot Dog and the peonies.

Sarah: So how many titles have you not mentioned since the strike began this week?

Amanda: Well, the Hide Your Wallet which is going up on Tuesday, we had one title that we had to remove –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – and then today there was one title in Books on Sale that I didn’t include. I had to remove two or three titles from the podcast on Friday –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – and then there was another title I was going to feature in Books on Sale tomorrow – ‘cause I’m going to New York, so I’m setting it up now – that I wound up removing ‘cause I realized that was also HarperCollins. So right now, in the last, since Thursday, I would say roughly half a dozen?

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: To a little bit more that I’ve had to take out of posts and stuff like that.

Sarah: Well, you are saving my bacon today, ‘cause last week I produced, edited, and completed a podcast for this week –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – November 18th, which is in four days, five days if you count today, and it’s a Carina Press author, so I have to pause the podcast, and to this person’s credit, they were extremely understanding and a hundred percent supportive of the union, and in the interviews that I’ve done with other authors and other editors at other houses since the strike started, they have been extremely clear in their support of the union? And it sucks; it feels so shitty, but I won’t cross the picket lines, so I’m pausing the episode –

Amanda: Mm-mm.

Sarah: – until there is an agreement, and I, I won’t cross their picket line. They had, this is what they’ve asked: this is what we’ll do.

You are saving my bacon ‘cause I need this episode for this week. Usually I don’t record week of?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: This is a holdover from having had toddlers? Right, you make all these plans, right? You think you’ve planned out your week, and then somebody’s going to throw up –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – somebody’s going to get a fever, somebody’s going to miss school, and all of your plans are gone, so I try very hard not to leave things to the last minute because last minute, last minute does not go well. So this is, this is very close for me. It’s like four days, but it’s very close to me.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Thank you for saving my bacon today!

Amanda: No problem. And look, not to brag, but I’m an easy edit.

Sarah: Yeah, for the most part!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Very easy.

So we are going to do – [drum roll] – a challenge!

Amanda: Yes, which I’m – I should have asked the rules beforehand?

Sarah: I will explain the rules –

Amanda: ‘Cause – yeah, like, what’s the difference –

Sarah: – ‘cause I made it up.

Amanda: What’s the difference between a cliché and a trope, or are they the same thing?

Sarah: We’re going to go with the same. So here are the rules: we each have a list of clichés and tropes and things that are commonly found in romance, and we’re going to go back and forth. So I’m going to name one. We can’t repeat, and if you say one that’s on my list, I have to take it off.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: And if I say one that’s on your list, you have to take yours off, and –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – first one to run out loses.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: M’kay?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So for example, here are some examples of good clichés and tropes that I like that, as, as a sample: kissing in the rain – always good.

Amanda: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Food and drink sharing or caretaking. But there are some that are just abysmal, and I am ready! All right, do you want me to go first?

Amanda: I can go first.

Sarah: Okay, go for it. I’m listening.

Amanda: I went more like cliché-wise, but I can –

Sarah: That’s fine.

Amanda: – rattle off tropes, so that’s fine.

He or she released a breath they didn’t know they were holding.

Sarah: Oh, well played! An excellent opening salvo!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I am deeply impressed! Well played. Okay.

Orgasms have cured her [insert ailment here].

Now, when I was doing research, ‘cause I wasn’t sure if this had a proper name?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I did find, on Reddit, this called magic healing cock, which is heteronormative and is, you know, is –

Amanda: Sure.

Sarah: – is very specifically tied to male appendage, but I want to call out a specific comment by a Redditor named GooseBook: “I’m not Scrooge. I think fanfic can have a little magical dick as a treat.”

[Laughter]

Sarah: So there you go: orgasms have cured her problems. One good orgasm and you’re all good.

Amanda: Another one I had was someone was kissed or, or, or borked senseless?

Sarah: Oooh. Like she gets kissed and she can’t think straight?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Oh yeah, I’ve read that before. Okay.

I hate all women because one particular woman was terrible, because if –

Listen, y’all, if women did that for shitty men? Birthrates would plummet. [Laughs] But in a romance, one woman being terrible is enough for the hero to write off all women, and it’s fine. No one calls him out –

Amanda: I have a –

Sarah: – on being a misogynist tool. [Laughs]

Amanda: I have a similar one, so I don’t – if this is similar I have a follow-up.

Sarah: Okay.

Amanda: But I also had a, a woman swearing off any man from a certain profession?

Sarah: Oooh! I think that’s related but not the same, so those are, those, that’s worth a point.

Amanda: Okay. It’s like, oh, I was, you know, my heart was broken by a fireman, so I’m never dating another fireman again.

Sarah: Now I understand it if someone is trying to avoid a person who is in a career path that for them –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – has meant not great things. Like my dad was a, a – okay, so obviously the first responder professions this comes up a lot.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: My dad, my dad was an accountant and I never saw him between February and April, and I’m not willing to lose two months of my life to accounts.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Anyone who’s listening who’s an accountant, you’re fabulous. I’m not actually serious that this applies to you. This is the –

Amanda: The reasoning is like, I was broken up with by –

Sarah: A –

Amanda: – someone who works this job.

Sarah: Yes. [Laughs] My barista broke my heart, so I’ve never been to Starbucks again!

Amanda: No more baristas! I can’t ever have another cup of coffee!

Sarah: Yes. [Laughs]

Okay, every heroine has a flat stomach.

Amanda: Oh. A tight, a tight tummy.

Sarah: Yes. And her flat – always. Why? That – ugh! That’s something I wish –

Amanda: Okay –

Sarah: – we could get rid of in, in the genre altogether, this, this very low-key but consistent anti-fat bias. I remember, I even remember older Jude Deveraux novels where, like, the heroine – like, for example, in A Knight in Shining Armor, she goes back in time, and she’s not eating as much, and she starts talking about how she has interesting hollows in her cheeks, and I’m like, you’re starving! You are undernourished! This is not sexy!

Amanda: I think, like, the, the first, the first heroine, or, like, the first author that I remember reading who was like, my heroines unabashedly love food and that’s okay, is –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: – Jennifer Crusie!

Sarah: Yes!

Amanda: Jennifer Crusie has some women who love food. You know, they’re not flat tummies necessarily.

Sarah: Nope! That was one of the first one I remember. I remember spec-, that the, I even remember that making such an impression on me? That, like, doughnuts were the thing. Right? The heroine in –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – I think Bet Me loves doughnuts. Like, I even remember the food. All right.

Amanda: So tangentially related to flat tummies is they have flat tummies, but they also have curves in all the right places.

Sarah: Where, where are the right places?

Amanda: What – but what’s a wrong place to have a curve?

Sarah: Like a goiter on your neck?

Amanda: Yeah –

Sarah: [Laughs] Like, what is the, where are the wrong places?

Amanda: Where are we not allowed to have curves?

Sarah: One of the greatest things I did this summer – this is a shade TMI; I apology – one of the greatest things I did this summer was when we were on vacation we went to nude beaches? If you want to get over your body images, just be around lots and lots of naked people. We are all so interestingly funny-looking and each in our own individual ways. Everyone looks different, and everyone is fine.

Amanda: I went to a clothing-optional swimming hole in Texas.

Sarah: Oooh!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s fun, right?

Amanda: Yeah! I did – it’s called Hippie Hollow.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Of course it is! What, what else would it be called?

Amanda: And I didn’t know that in Texas, ‘cause it gets so hot, you have to make reservations –

Sarah: Oh gosh!

Amanda: – for, like, the swimming places to go to, and we didn’t know that, so all the places were booked, and the only place open was the clothing-optional Hippie Hollow, so we just went!

Sarah: I feel like Hippie Hollow could be a cliché.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: My next round.

Amanda: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: The ex is evil.

Amanda: Ooh, that was on my list.

Sarah: Yeah, sorry, took that one from you. Yep, the ex is always evil. One of the things that – so this week’s – let me back up – this week’s bonus episode is me talking about Season of Love by Helena Greer? And I did an interview with Helena and with her editor, Sam Brody, which, which is coming up in a future episode, because this is, this was Sam’s, Sam Brody’s first acquisition as an editor –

Amanda: Oooh!

Sarah: – and it’s such –

Amanda: Congrats, Sam!

Sarah: – it’s, it – right?! – it’s such a cute conversation, but one of the things that happens in that book is that one of the heroines is with somebody that’s just not right for them, and their ex is very icy and controlled and very wealthy, but also a normal human with feelings, and she’s not evil. And I was like, oh!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I love this! Just line the trope up exactly the way I think it’s going to go, and then take, like, take a one-eighty and not do that.

Amanda: I think, I think it was Rosaline Palmer [Takes the Cake], the heroine’s bisexual and she has a kid, and the person that she was with – I think like Lauren or Laura maybe? – is still, like, present in their lives and, but, like, there’s no, like, really bad blood or anything like that.

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: It’s, it was very nice.

I had the, the über ambitious, like, businesswoman who has no time for love. She’s just too busy!

Sarah: [Laughs] I have no time for love. Yes!

Amanda: Too busy to form attachments.

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: I feel like you see this more often with women, like heroines rather than a, than a hero?

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: Because, you know, women can’t have it all! You can’t be successful in your career but also have time for romance.

Sarah: That was one of the things I –

Amanda: You can’t!

Sarah: – appreciated so much about Julie James’s novels? Sometimes part of the conflict was that both of them were very good at their jobs, they both liked their jobs, and they were busy! They were busy people! Like, and making a relationship work meant being, being scheduled to have drinks for half an hour ‘cause that’s the only time you’ve got that day, but I, I really liked that was part of the conflict, that we’re busy! We both have – and, and all of the characters in her novels have careers that are, like, very time-consuming, but they like their careers; they’re very happy. And they’re, and they’re ambitious without it being a bad thing.

Yeah, I was reading somebody talking about how, you know, you know how there’s a, a sort of a pipeline from wellness influencers to, like, full-on QAnon conspiracy? And I don’t remember where I saw this – I’ll have to find it when I am editing – but somebody on Twitter was saying, yeah, it’s, it’s like, you know, the whole women in the kitchen thing has been transformed into the sacred female energy must guard the hearth of each home, and I was talking about this and, like –

Amanda: Sounds exhausting.

Sarah: I know, right? And I was like, I’m not guarding the Goddamn hearth! I’m busy!

Also, I forgot to tell you, I have a new rule? I have a second rule. So I have an older rule; I think I’ve told you this. Like right after 2001, I said that I do not allow white men in suits to tell me things on TV screens. So if it’s –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – a white dude in a suit on TV, I do not let them tell me things. Now, this is, this does not apply to most meteorologists, ‘cause they take their suit jackets off. They’re usually just wearing a tie.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So that’s fine! I’ll listen to meteorologists. But I don’t let white dudes in suits tell me things on TV screens. And that’s an old rule; like, that’s a twenty-year-old rule.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: My new rule: I do not let white women on social media tell me what to eat.

Amanda: Hmmm!

Sarah: It’s a good rule. I invite everyone to adopt this rule. Don’t let a white lady, especially if she’s got, like, a lot of influencer signals and wellness signals? Don’t let, don’t let a white lady on social media tell you what to eat. Unless it’s us and we’re sharing recipes! [Laughs]

This is a tricky one, and I, if this has a proper name, it has a – okay, so it has a proper name, but it’s a very specific incarnation of this trope? So you have love at first sight signaled by some kind of physical change. So it’s Fated Mates, but I can see in color, my heart starts beating, my horns do something that proclaim my horniness! [Laughs]

Amanda: I had, I had one that was you can ejaculate now! That’s, that was another one.

Sarah: That was, that was my absolute favorite!

Amanda: I was telling that to someone, and they’re like, wait, what?

Sarah: Oooh!

Amanda: I’m like, it’s a real thing!

Sarah: It’s like when the fire department comes along to, like, flush all the hydrants and they un- –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – uncap and they’re just water everywhere. There’s just, there’s –

Amanda: But you have to think like – I know this is going to be gross – they still orgasm, they just don’t ejaculate, but do they have to, like, drain snake it? Like, is there some sort of like buildup that they need to –

Sarah: Is there some sort of storage compartment?

Amanda: Or you know, like, when you use lo-, you haven’t used lotion for a while and there’s like that hard piece of lotion in the tip and you got –

Sarah: My hair product every morning. Every morning I’ve got to go find the little nubbin of hair product.

Amanda: [Laughs] Is it like that?

Sarah: Yeah! It’s a, it’s a lot like that. It’s exactly like that.

Amanda: I had one similar to that in that, like, they feel a spark of electricity when they’re, when they, like, touch at first. You know what I mean?

Sarah: How is that just not static ‘cause you wore socks on the carpet?

Amanda: [Laughs] Also, Brian just texted me and he’s like, I can’t believe you just said that about me.

Sarah: [Laughs] Hi, Brian! Welcome to recording a podcast with me. Sorry!

Amanda: It’s like the hard lotion thing. I’ve got to fill him in about what I’m talking about, yeah.

Sarah: Sorry, Brian. Okay.

Amanda: Should I pick another? Did the hand thing count, or was that too similar to your physiology?

Sarah: No, I don’t think, I don’t think that’s –

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: – too similar, because there’s always, like –

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: – their fingers touched –

Amanda: They touched – yeah.

Sarah: – and she felt a zing, and I was like, oh –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – okay, you were just rubbing your feet on the carpet; that’s what that was.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I don’t think this has a, has a proper name? But this is a, this is a trope that’s in romance and in a lot of movies, and I hate it so much.

If I keep bothering her, she’ll change her mind.

Amanda: That’s also in real life. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, for sure! And it’s often, sometimes it’s like, it’s called pining or he yearns for her and, in the cover copy? And then you get into the book and I’m like, no, this is actually stalking? If I keep bothering her, she’ll change her mind. Mm-mm, no, thank you.

Amanda: I have a, another, I have an obvious one: danger makes me horny!

Sarah: Danger boner! Yes! Absolutely!

All right, here’s a real simple, obvious one.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Love triangle: no, thanks.

Amanda: I feel like we’ve gotten, we’ve thankfully kind of moved away a little bit from the love triangle?

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: They were really popular for a while.

Sarah: They really were, and I think that part of that is that it was really obvious tension, right? Does she choose this guy or –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – does she choose that guy?

Amanda: But there was always an obvious choice.

Sarah: Oh, there was always an obvious choice. And it makes me think of, well, first, the ob-, the biggest love triangle that I remember when all of a sudden teenagers used to get their own TV shows was the, the Brenda/Kelly love triangle on 90210. Like, that was –

Amanda: Oh, I never watched 90210.

Sarah: Wow. It was extremely ‘90s. Like –

Amanda: I was a General Hospital girl for a while.

Sarah: How many love triangles on General Hospital?

Amanda: I feel like there were a few.

Sarah: Yeah. Well, I mean –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – it’s easy tension, right?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: All right.

Amanda: Twee small town names.

Sarah: Ooh, yeah!

Amanda: Like Hippie Hollow!

Sarah: Hippie Hollow!

Amanda: Like Thistle Spring! Like –

Sarah: Christmas Town!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I want, I want a series of romances that are set in, like, Big Bone Lick State Park, which is in Kentucky. Or my personal favorite, Blue Balls, Pennsylvania, which is down the road from Intercourse, Pennsylvania.

Amanda: Ooh!

Sarah: They’re all in Amish country, so no shtupping.

Amanda: Oh my God!

Sarah: But yeah, that would be amazing. Twee – the, the small town name that sort of – like, should we just blame Stars Hollow in Gilmore Girls for this?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: For sure. One hundred percent.

Sarah: I will write a small town, and I’ll name it like Rumble Strip.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Okay.

Amanda: Yeah! Yeah! What’s the population of Rumble Strip?

Sarah: Sixty-nine thousand, four hundred and twenty people, obvs!

[Laughter]

Sarah: All right, now, you can call me, you can call foul on this one, but I had this listed separately.

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: So I said earlier, orgasms cured her [physical ailment here].

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Good sex overcomes infertility.

Amanda: Yeah. I would, I don’t think they’re the same.

Sarah: I don’t think they’re the same either, specifically because the infertility issues are almost always addressed by, like, some kind of surprise baby –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – at some point, and I – [deep breath] – I don’t like it, as someone who went through infertility. It makes me really, really mad. Like do you know what overcomes infertility? A lot of intervention and a whole Rockette line of doctors helping you get pregnant, plus shots, patches, and some other stuff. So, yeah, it’s not just one good, you know, visit to Bone Town. Although we could write a small-town romance and call it, set it in Bone Town. That should be our, if we ever do a charity anthology, like the Smart Bitches charity anthology, it’s going to be Welcome to Bone Town.

Amanda: Welcome to Bone Town!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: I have, the person I just had sex with is now my new boss or teacher!

Sarah: Ohhh! Oh, you got me! Oh, you sunk my battleship!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Number eighteen on my list: we banged, and now you are my teacher/tutor/power imbalance role.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Well played. Oh, you got me.

Amanda: Thank you. [Laughs]

Sarah: You got me on that one. All right, let me, let me strike through that one.

All right. We must bang so I get her out of my system.

Amanda: Yep.

Sarah: I read that one a lot, right. Oh, I’ve got to –

Amanda: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – I’ve got to, we just, we should just, we should just go to Bone Town, and then I won’t be bothered by pants feelings anymore. Now, I actually want to know, does this work? And is the situation in which this is successful resting on the fact that when they go to Bone Town, it’s so bad they never want to see each other again?

Amanda: Sort of, ooh, that was awful –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – but my curiosity has been sated and we can move on!

Sarah: Yeah. Your room is smelly and the sex was bad: bye! [Laughs]

Amanda: I work through my trauma by doing kinky stuff in the bedroom rather than seeing a therapist. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes! I’m trying to look at my list and see if any of those overlap, because yes, I’ve done that. I, I’ve, I’ve – (a) I don’t like it, and it’s, it’s like BDSM is the kink of the emotionally broken? No! All of the people I know who practice BDSM are, like, super, super good at recognizing boundaries and are deeply emotionally –

Amanda: Yeah! Communication?

Sarah: Communication? Like, what?!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: All right. This is my, I could, I could rant about this cliché, and I haven’t seen it in a long time, thank God, but I could rant about this cliché for hours. I won’t! But I could.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Any hero who says he has “been too long without a woman.” Remember those guys? Yeah, I’m sorry; just rub one out in the shower like the rest of the world. You’re not entitled to –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – you’re not entitled to a woman because you have, you know, itchy balls. Come on! Come on! Hate that. It’s been too long without a woman. Thank you for identifying so many people as a repository.

Amanda: But also, isn’t it interesting that there’s plenty of, like, heroines who have, like, dry spells of like, I haven’t dated in years! But, like, they don’t experience the same thing of like –

Sarah: No. They’re not –

Amanda: – need.

Sarah: – entitled to it, whereas these guys are like, oh, I’ve been too long without a woman; I should go find a vagina somewhere to put my penis into. Really, that’s your thought process? Come on! Wow, some of these clichés are deeply problematic, misogynistic, and heteronormative, huh?

Amanda: This one’s very niche?

Sarah: Ohhh, I love a good niche.

Amanda: So I can pick another one. This one, most often in historicals: a marriage of convenience, but then the husband fucks right off, and then when he comes back he’s irritated at how well put together the heroine has become, whether in business or running the estate.

Sarah: You did fine without me, so I’m mad.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. That was the, one of the major plotlines of the first romance I ever read, which is both appalling and still works on me to this day.

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: Pursuant to your BDSM statement: being able to sense that someone you have just met is submissive and will like BDSM. Like, sometimes it’s even like a scent.

Amanda: The way – [laughs]

Sarah: Like, what?!

Amanda: The way she ordered that banana bread at the coffee shop –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – I can tell. She’s submissive.

Sarah: Like, how do you know? How do you – how? How do you know? I don’t understand! All right, your turn.

Amanda: Similar to she did fine without me is, she wins over the household. Like, married in, like, name only, and of course the minute she shows up at the house, like, all the staff, like, immediately fall in love with her, and it’s like, there hasn’t been a, someone hasn’t decorated for Christmas in a decade here! Look at her go!

Sarah: Yep!

Amanda: Like – [laughs]

Sarah: And, and in reality, it would make more sense to me that the person who has been running the household would be resentful of this new person walking in and saying, well, yep, it’s my job now, even if that’s what’s supposed to happen.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I just finished listening to a murder mystery – please hold while I verify the publisher of this, of this book before I mention the title.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: All right. Berkley! Ding, ding, ding!

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: So I just finished listening to Revenge in Rubies by Har-, it’s a Harriet Gordon mystery by A. M. Stuart. Okay, I mention this in the bonus episode, so if someone’s listened to the bonus episode this’ll be a bit of a repeat? All three books in the series have different narrators, and I find this completely baffling, but so far they’re all pretty good. In the second one, a young woman marries an older man and comes with him – they’re all set in Singapore in 1910 – and comes to live with him in Singapore, and his sister, who has been running his house and raising his kid from his late wife and basically managing everything is told, well, you’re done now and you should leave. And she was understandably very pissed off at her brother and did not like the new wife, and I thought, all right, this is the kind of juicy gossip mystery I can get into.

Okay, my call. Looking at my list. All right.

Amanda: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: This is similar to the way she ordered that banana bread proved that she would enjoy intense BDSM.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Being able to sense that a person is a virgin.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, there’s a, there is legitimately a hero, I can think of the, the author, where the, the hero, like, caught her scent on the wind and knew that she was impure, and I was like, oh, fuck you, buddy! [Laughs] Does virginity have a scent? Is that what all those –

Amanda: What does it smell like?

Sarah: – creepy-ass Love’s Baby Soft ads –

Amanda: Fritos?

Sarah: Burritos! Virginity smells like burritos?

Amanda: Corn chips, maybe?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: Mountain Dew Code Red.

Sarah: Oh God!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: No, that’s what it – never mind; I’m not even going to go there. Just going to leave that alone; just going to back away, back away, back away, back away. All right, your turn!

Amanda: I only have two more, so you might –

Sarah: [Gasps]

Amanda: – win out. I’m just going to say bakeries. Someone’s always opening up a Goddamn bakery!

Sarah: There is no limit to the number of bakeries and cupcake shops that Romancelandia small towns can support.

Amanda: I just want like a Main Street that’s just nothing but bakeries. There’s no bank; there’s no post office.

Sarah: Yeah, mm-mm.

Amanda: It’s just bakeries.

Sarah: But it’s all a very specific kind of baked good so they don’t step on each other’s toes, right?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So we have the cupcake shop –

Amanda: Macarons.

Sarah: The macaron shop, the cupcake shop –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: The, the –

Amanda: Bread.

Sarah: – the bread shop. Now, I am all about the idea of having specific specialty shops like the cheese shop, the bread shop, the bake- – like, that makes sense? But, like, sometimes they get so specific where it’s just the one baked good, and I’m like, that seems like a – okay! That seems like a problem.

Amanda: So, speaking of little shops, in Flamecraft, all the little shops have pun names.

Sarah: [Gasps]

Amanda: So one of the bread shops is called Critical Rolls? [Laughs]

Sarah: ‘Course it is.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Okay.

Amanda: It’s great.

Sarah: This is technically two, but I feel like –

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: – if I name one it includes the other.

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: A one-handed or no-handed orgasm.

Amanda: [Laughs] How does that work?

Sarah: So most – so you, you’ve read, like, the, he, he somehow reaches down between them and hits the spot exactly right, and then she just –

Amanda: Oh yeah.

Sarah: – goes off like a firework, and I’m like, first of all –

Amanda: Yeah, for sure.

Sarah: Everybody –

Amanda: That’s not how it works.

Sarah: Ev-, every romance hero has double-jointed elbows; this is my theory. But then there’s the people where it’s like, just, just one, one, one journey up the, the, the cinnabar cavern of love, and it’s like, kaboom! That’s, that’s it! This is where a lot of, like, sexual myths come from.

Amanda: They make is sound so easy.

Sarah: Right? And I’m like, listen, let’s be real here. That’s not how, that’s not how a lot of people work with their bodies. Okay.

Amanda: So this is my last one on my list.

Sarah: [Gasps]

Amanda: The person you’ve been texting or chatting with online is actually your, your nemesis.

Sarah: Oooh! I like that one.

Amanda: I know you do. [Laughs]

Sarah: I like that one a lot! That’s one of my favorites. Actually, in my list of good ones I have, we do not like each other, and we are stuck together, and I do not like that you are competent.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: It pisses me off that you’re a competent coworker and I hate it ‘cause I, you know, I don’t like it.

Okay. So let me come up – I have a couple more here.

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: Secret baby.

Amanda: Of course. Yeah.

Sarah: It’ll never get old! Amnesia.

Amanda: Of course, yeah.

Sarah: Of course. All right, I have, I have a list of twenty-five, so I have like four –

Amanda: Oh my goodness!

Sarah: – four or five left.

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: I came to win!

Amanda: [Laughs] You did!

Sarah: Yeah, and I’m, I am familiar with the competitive nature of one Amanda Diehl, so –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – I did research. I –

Amanda: I, like, purposefully avoided like obvious ones? ‘Cause like, oh, I was like, oh, I know Sarah’s going to have this one; oh, I know Sarah’s going to have this one.

Sarah: All right. I don’t know what to call this one; I have a suggestion –

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: – but maybe you can help me come up with a name. I have a feeling, and it is your fault, and so I will punish you for the fact that I’m having an emotion.

Amanda: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: I call this punitive emotional constipation.

Amanda: Yeah. I’m, I’ve read a – I don’t like that one at all.

Sarah: I don’t –

Amanda: I’ve read, I’ve seen several that are like that recently; I’m like, I, I just can’t do this anymore.

Sarah: Like, your feelings are not someone else’s responsibility!

Amanda: See. A. Therapist!

Sarah: Actually, that’s number twenty-two: no one mentions therapy, psychological, or medical support.

Amanda: No one, barely anyone mentions periods, either. Like, it’s like periods don’t exist.

Sarah: There’s a, there’s a –

Amanda: In romance.

Sarah: There’s an older book, two dudes and a, and a woman, and she’s like –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – listen, I’m, I feel like hell. You guys go hang out; I am not interested. Like, go, go do some things.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Two words – how many times have you read this? – sex coach. I need you to teach me the ways of the sexing so that I can go and sex this other person, but –

Amanda: And then they, yeah.

Sarah: But –

Amanda: I do love that one, though!

Sarah: Yeah, me too! But it’s a very common cliché!

[Laughter]

Amanda: I just like that one.

Sarah: Like, do you think there are any, do you think there is any people like – I know you’re not on, on, like, Tinder or Bumble or anything like that anymore –

Amanda: Mm-mm.

Sarah: – but do you think that there are people who are on dating apps who are like, listen, I don’t want to date; I just want you to teach me how to go to Bone Town. I think there are.

Amanda: I, I haven’t come across any in my travels, but –

Sarah: [Laughs] No pun intended.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: The other ones I have here: Not Like Other Girls.

Amanda: Ugh, yuck. Okay.

Sarah: Not a fan. Best friend’s sibling.

Amanda: I don’t like those at all.

Sarah: Especially, you can’t fuck my little sister, you creep. Okay, but why are you friends with this person that you don’t trust with your sibling?

Amanda: But also, your sister is twenty-four years old. Like –

Sarah: [Laughs] She’s a whole-ass –

Amanda: – relax.

Sarah: – human being who can make decisions for herself!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Yes, the general infantilization of people is very frustrating.

Amanda: Yeah, it’s always the woman; it’s never like my brother or anything like that. My little brother.

Sarah: Now, I have read a few that I have enjoyed where the tension isn’t so much, you can’t go to Bone Town with my sibling or my best friend. It’s more like, the person who is the friend is like an honorary family member, and they don’t want to –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – screw that up because this is their –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – their, their home and –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – or their second home, or their, or their safe, you know, their sanctuary –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – and they don’t want to screw that up. Like, I get that completely? But, like, you’re a creep; you can’t go to Bone Town with my sibling, but you’re my best friend and we hang out all the time?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I don’t understand! Maybe I’m just too picky. I think the problem is here – you know what I should do? I’m really picky about the romance novels that I read. I should start a review blog. That’s what I should do.

Amanda: [Laughs] Novel thought.

Sarah: Yeah, I know! See if the, see how that works.

All right. And the last one that I have on my list is, I am dedicated to my career and the choices that I have made, but I will give up my entire personal and professional life for you. The end.

Amanda: That’s wild.

Sarah: You’ve read that before, right?

Amanda: Yeah! But that, that is still wild.

Sarah: Isn’t that just – it’s just incredible.

Amanda: And unhealthy.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s, it’s part of the whole theme where a lot of the time the protagonists, especially in contemporary romance, they’re very isolated? Like, they don’t have friends; they don’t have support network; they don’t have people to hang out with; they don’t want to – like, there is just them. And as a supremely introverted person who doesn’t like to leave the house, if you were to, like, meet me and become friends with me, you would know about my other friends; I have friends! Like, these, the isolation –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – part, where it’s like on-, only the relationship is the important thing. No other relationships are more important than the one that is happening in the romance, including your relationship with your work, your relationship with yourself, your relationship with your family. Like, I don’t, I don’t understand that. So, that was my last one.

Amanda: That’s a good list!

Sarah: It was a good list! I think I won. I feel guilty.

Amanda: You did. You did well.

Sarah: I, I over-prepared.

Amanda: Don’t feel guilty!

Sarah: I over-prep- –

Amanda: Well, that’s –

Sarah: I over-prepared.

Amanda: – not a surprise!

Sarah: My last good one that I love, one of my favorite ones? I love respectful pining. Like when one character has it so bad for the other, but also knows of reasons not to bring those feelings forward, and those reasons –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – are valid, and, and –

Amanda: Like, now’s not a good time!

Sarah: Now is not a good time for the fact that I’ve in love with you for twenty-five years, so I’m just going to hold onto it for another twenty-five; that’ll be fine. And there becomes a point where it’s like, okay. You’ve got to shit or get off the pot. Like –

Amanda: Yeah, for sure.

Sarah: – make a decision. I don’t like indecisiveness? I really hate it in myself especially; I love making decisions. But I love respectful pining.

So what are you reading? And then I’m going to tell you a joke.

Amanda: I am reading a Korean therapy memoir that came out –

Sarah: I did not know those words went – what?! Tell me!

Amanda: So it’s, it was originally written in South Korean, and I guess, like, one of the members of BTS loves it, and so that’s part of the marketing for it?

Sarah: Oh, that’s so cute! I did not know that BTS was a marketing strategy for books, but of course it is!

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: Can you imagine if there was a BTS book club?

Amanda: Ooh, that’d be great, for sure.

Sarah: [Gasps] Oh my gosh.

Amanda: And I asked my brother how to pronounce this, though I don’t even remember if it’s right. But it’s called I Want to Die, But I Want to Eat Tteokbokki? Which is these, like, like, rice cake noodles? I’ve had them; they’re delicious.

Sarah: I want to die, but I want to eat rice cake noodles.

Amanda: Yeah! And I, like –

Sarah: I can, I can, I can relate to that feeling.

Amanda: I know! It’s like, I’m so sad, but I love food so much, and that’s kind of what’s keeping me going right now is just like, you know, the thought of never eating nachos again bums me out. So that is what I’m reading right now. A little bit different than what I usually go for, but the title captured me, and apparently, like, it was pretty successful in South Korea –

Sarah: That’s awesome!

Amanda: – and they just translated it to English. It came out November, came out this month I think.

Sarah: That’s awesome!

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: I am still reading, very slowly, Tranquility by Tuesday. There are nine different steps for basically managing your schedule so that you feel more tranquil and, and can just be chill, which is, like, always my goal? I, I embrace tranquility.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I could be in Overwatch. I could be that little character who flies around and embrace tranquility. So one of them is to plan the week ahead on Friday afternoon, but then, like, not only just the weekend and the week ahead, but the following weekend? So now –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – Adam and I have started sitting down on Friday afternoons, and he looks at his work calendar, and I look at my work calendar, and we add things to each other’s calendar. Like, if he has meetings with the camera on in his office, then I know that I’m, like, the person to come to, so I should not be doing something where I can’t be interrupted.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, I won’t schedule a podcast during that time. It’s actually made things a lot more chill because we both know what to expect, plus we host Thanksgiving, and Thanksgiving is like ten days away? So we had that –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – whole discussion about what we’re doing and – like, his parents are coming; what are we cooking? That kind of thing? And so I can sort of look ahead and feel a lot more relaxed? Like, oh, this is nice!

Two of the other ones are move your body in some way for at least ten minutes by 3:00 p.m.

Amanda: Mm!

Sarah: Like, oh, that’s doable!

And the other one that I really appreciate, because I’m – I, I don’t know if you know this, but I can be a little aggressive with myself in my own goals and tasks? I don’t know if you’ve witnessed that?

Amanda: You don’t say.

Sarah: You witnessed that at all? Little bit driven when it comes to prodding myself?

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: Three times a week is good. Three times a week is a habit. It doesn’t have to be every day.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So, like, sometimes if I get up and I am just not feeling like working out, I’m, you know, I’m, like, tired; I’m achy; whatever; I don’t have to be like, but you must do it every day! No! Three times a week –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – is a habit! Ooh, I like this! So, so far I have found this book very, very cool.

And I still recommend Season of Love by Helena Greer. Do you know about this book?

Amanda: Yes! I think you recommended both the tranquility one and Season of Love in Whatcha Reading? over the weekend.

Sarah: I did! I did. Season of Love is so good. Amanda, I read it in one day? It’s about –

Amanda: I caught you recommending it to Shana!

Sarah: Oh – I’m, like, mad at myself that she wasn’t like the first person I thought of. I gifted it –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – I gifted it to a friend of mine. The – I told you I was the Matron of Honor in a lesbian wedding like –

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: – bunch of years ago, right? So I sent it to one of them. Well, the, her, her wife passed away a couple of years ago, so I sent it to my friend, and I was like, um, listen: so this looks like a Christmas book, but everyone who owns this Christmas tree farm is Jewish, and she went, whaat?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Like, yes, that’s right! It really captures that feeling of being Jewish and being completely surrounded by Christmas. Like, it’s everywhere and you can’t escape it, but you’re just, you’re going to keep going and being Jewish anyway, and all the ways –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – they do that are just so good! And it’s a really fun interview, so I’m really liking that.

I just finished listening to Revenge in Rubies, and I’m waiting for my hold on Evil in Emerald to come in, and –

Amanda: Ooh!

Sarah: – that’s what I’m listening to. I think I’m –

Amanda: Those are some catchy titles.

Sarah: They are really good titles. Those are the Harriet Gordon mysteries.

Oh! I have a small cat on my desk. Hello, baby!

Amanda: Hello!

Sarah: Little, tiny baby.

All right, are you ready for this week’s joke? I’m going to share this joke with you so that you can share it with Brian!

Amanda: Okay. [Laughs]

Sarah: Are you ready?

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: Why did someone upgrade from LGBTQ to LGBTQ+?

Amanda: I don’t know.

Sarah: So they could use Pro nouns rather than Standard nouns.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s so bad!

Amanda: [Laughs more]

Sarah: I – every now and again I will encounter a joke and I’ll just be like – [gasps] – I can’t tell anyone this! I have to use it for the podcast!

Amanda: It’s ridiculous!

Sarah: I know! I’m still also really tickled in the, in the podcast Discord? I’m still annoyed that the fans of Niall Horan are not called the Niall-ists.

Amanda: Niall-ists.

Sarah: I’m, like, so mad!

Amanda: That’s pretty good.

Sarah: Like, I actually want to, like, go find his publicist and be like, can I do an interview with Niall Horan and just ask him –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – why his supporters are not called Niall-ists? I just, I need to know. I need to know why.

Amanda: What are they called instead?

Sarah: I don’t know; it’s probably something like Niall-ators? Now or Laters?

Amanda: Oh my God.

Sarah: Horan, Horan – [laughs] – Horny Horans! I don’t know! Okay, wait – [laughs more] – what are Niall Horan’s fans called? Oh my God, it just auto-filled! Niall Horan says the official name for his fan base is The Horan Dogs.

Amanda: I don’t like that.

Sarah: I like Niall-ists better!

Amanda: [Laughs] I don’t like that!

Sarah: I like – [laughs] – Niall Nation? Niall-ers?

Amanda: No.

Sarah: No, Niall-ists.

Amanda: No.

Sarah: How, how is, how is no one on this? I don’t understand.

Amanda: Maybe ‘cause most people who are fans of Niall Horan don’t know what a nihilist is, is my guess.

Sarah: Maybe? Maybe. I mean, it seems kind of obvious to me, but oh well.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: All right. Thank you, Amanda!

Amanda: Thank you!

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Amanda for saving my bacon. I have paused the episode that was meant to run this week, and I will run it in the future. My hope is that the HarperCollins union can come to an agreement with HarperCollins and that the strike will end, but until then we do not cross picket lines.

If you have clichés you would like to challenge us with, or just, just tell us what your favorite cliché is, we want to know. You can email me at [email protected] or Sarah with an H at Smart Bitches, Trashy Books dot com [[email protected]], and also if you are a member of the Patreon and would like to be part of our year-end episodes, check the Patreon feed for information on how to do that.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very, very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend. We will see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[end of fun music]