426. All About Murderbot with Martha Wells

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Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 426 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books.  I am Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and with me today is Martha Wells. Martha Wells is the author of the Murderbot Diaries, one of my absolute favorite discoveries this year. My inner thirteen-year-old barely kept it together during this interview. We talk about Murderbot, romance, science fiction, what she’s obsessed with like I’m obsessed with Murderbot.

I do want to make an important note here: we take a deep dive into the plot of the four Murderbot Diary novellas and the novel Network Effect, so if you haven’t read the series and you want to, this MAY SPOIL SOME PLOT POINTS. We also talk about feelings and relationships and things Murderbot would really prefer we not talk about.

I want to say thank you to Pamala, Malia, CHoward, Hannah, Stacey, Angie, and many others for the questions and excitement about this interview. This is probably an episode that I am more excited than normal to bring to you, because doing it and having the opportunity to talk to Martha Wells completely made my year, and I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did.

She recommends a lot of books, because she’s awesome! So I will have a ton of links in the show notes as well at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

And if you by chance hear that rattling noise in the background, Wilbur has decided, as usual, that when I am recording it is snack time, so he suggests that you get a snack, because he is having one right now.

This episode is brought to you by Dipsea. We have talked a lot on this podcast about how reading can be difficult when your brain is really stressed – that’s certainly true for me – and it can be hard to remember to take time to focus on yourself. I tell myself all the time, Sarah, you can’t pour from an empty cup. But your joy and pleasure are so important right now – especially now. Put your wellbeing first with Dipsea. Dipsea is an audio app full of short, sexy stories and wellness sessions that are designed to turn you on and help you get in touch with yourself. The stories are relatable and immersive, you feel like you’re right there, and there’s something for everyone, whoever and whatever you’re into. The wellness sessions can help you unlock new confidence and heighten intimacy with your partner. They add new stories every week, so you never get bored. It’s an intimate way to use narratives to take care of yourself. For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering a thirty-day free trial when you go to dipseastories.com/TRASHYBOOKS. That’s a thirty-day free trial when you go to D-I-P-S-E-A stories dot com slash TRASHYBOOKS: dipseastories.com/TRASHYBOOKS.

I have a compliment in this episode! I love doing these.

To Melissa R.: You are the human personification of a hot bowl of soup, warm bread fresh from the oven, perfect cookies with the right balance of crisp and chewy, and everything kind and comforting.

If you would like a compliment of your very own, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges start at one dollar and keep the show going every week. I so appreciate the Patreon community, especially when they help me develop interviews and conversations like this one, so if you’d like to support the show, please have a look: patreon.com/SmartBitches.

This episode is also brought to you by Ritual, which is a daily multivitamin that was obsessively researched for women. It’s vegan-friendly, sugar-free, non-GMO, gluten-free, and allergen-free. All of the sources for the nine nutrients inside are provided for you to read and research on your own. We deserve to know what we’re putting in our bodies and why, which is why Ritual’s founder is on a mission to reinvent the vitamin industry. Here is a neat science that I learned too: Ritual uses vegan algal oil instead of fish oil, which is made using fermented microalgae and leaves minimal environmental contamination. I did not know that was a thing! I really like that Ritual is easy, that a new bottle arrives when I finish the old one, and I really like the fact that I know what’s in the capsule and why it’s in there. And the capsules are transparent, too; it’s kind of cool. I also like that the source of each part of the multivitamin is in the packaging, and also, it never makes me nauseated! Daily changes can lead to big results, so start small today. Ritual is offering my listeners ten percent off your first three months. Try it out, satisfaction guaranteed. Go to ritual.com/SARAH – that’s S-A-R-A-H – to start your Ritual today. That’s ten percent off during your first three months at ritual.com/SARAH.

As I mentioned, Martha Wells recommends an absolute metric ton of books, and you’ll find them in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast. Stay tuned afterward for a truly awful joke, but now, let’s get started with my interview with Martha Wells.

[music]

Martha Wells: I’m Martha Wells. I’m a science fiction and fantasy writer. I’ve been writing since about 1993 professionally, and I’ve done the Murderbot Diaries most recently and The Books of the Raksura and a bunch of other fantasy/science fiction novels and media tie-ins.

Sarah: Thank you so much for the Murderbot series!

Martha: Oh, you’re welcome! [Laughs] I enjoyed writing it!

Sarah: Murderbot is my Sanctuary Moon. When –

Martha: Oh!

Sarah: – things are crappy, I just go reread it.

Martha: That really makes me so happy, ‘cause when I was a kid, I relied on a lot of books and TV for that, and it just really, it just really makes me happy to know that people are doing that with my work.

Sarah: I have probably read the series, since March, when the Quarantimes started and Tor gave away the first four novellas in anticipation of Network Effect, I think I have read it six times?

Martha: Oh! [Laughs]

Sarah: I have listened to it, I have listened to it twice, maybe? Seriously, I have read it about as often as Murderbot has watched Sanctuary Moon. Like, it is the place I sink into, so whenever the character talks about sinking into media I’m like, yes, right there with you. Uh-huh, let’s do this! [Laughs]

Martha: Oh, that’s so cool!

Sarah: Thank you so much for the series. Like, I can’t even tell you. What’s interesting is, I’m a, I’m a romance blogger and reviewer, and I am very firmly located in the world of romance, but I know so many romance fans who love this series like, like as much I do, and I’ve asked myself, okay, why is this working on me? There are some overlaps between science fiction and fantasy and romance; there’s a lot of trope overlaps, but I, I know there’s no active romance in the story except between, I think – this is my theory – Murderbot and autonomy. That it’s sort of learning how to become a, a person, and I was thinking about that a lot, and then in my review for Network Effect, a reader named Hapax commented – and this is a bit of a spoiler – that it’s an ace or aromantic romantic suspense novel. It’s a –

Martha: Yes, I saw that.

Sarah: Oh, you did see that! Okay –

Martha: Yeah, I saw the comment.

Sarah: So did you, did you, what do you think about that? What do you hear most from fans about Murderbot and why they love the series?

Martha: Well, first, I think it might appeal to romance fans because – well, the reason I read romance – I don’t read as much of it anymore just ‘cause I don’t have a lot of time to read in general, so I try to stay in my field – but the, the emotional catharsis?

Sarah: Yes!

Martha: It’s a lot of getting in touch with your emotions, and I think Murderbot does that a lot, so I can see why that would appeal to even someone who’s primarily a romance reader and doesn’t, doesn’t care for science fiction or fantasy that much, because there is that, that feeling of exploring your emotions about different things and about people. A lot of the emotions Murderbot is experiencing is about meeting these humans and, and just how it feels, so I, I can really see that. And actually, the thing with it being a, an aromantic, agender romantic suspense novel is when I, I, when I actually first wrote Artificial Condition, where ART first appears, ART was not even really a character in it? I have to do a lot of rewriting within the series to, to get started usually when I start a new novella. I usually write like ten to twenty thousand words and end up, like, cutting back to five thousand before I actually find the plot and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – and work it all out. So I was doing that with Artificial Condition and kind of that first initial run, and the plot was different, though it sort of involved the, the mining colony and everything, but the part with, with, where Murderbot meets ART, I had realized that Murderbot needed to look more human, and I needed a, a way for, for it to be able to do that, and that, where it meets the friendly transport ship that, that, that lets it use the medical facility and helps it, that part was literally just like a paragraph of backstory, and then as I was going on, I was thinking, you know, that paragraph of backstory is so much more interesting than what this plot I’m trying to do and trying to make work, and it’s not working –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: – and I thought, you know, I really need, that really needs to be onstage. It feels too hand-wavy, you know, like I’m asking the reader to believe stuff that even I don’t believe kind of, so I went back and started back from the beginning of Murderbot, actually the first, on the space station, looking for a transport and, and did it from there, and when they started to talk, ART just came alive as a character, and it’s so cool when that happens, when you kind of have a character sort of buried in the story, and when they actually come on stage it’s like, oh, this is going to be an important character. And the more I worked on it, the relationship between them became central to that story, not necessarily what was, what Murderbot was finding out about its past on this, on this moon, but that, that relationship, and so after that was done and I was starting to work on the next one, I was really thinking about Murderbot’s relationships with the other characters and thinking, it’s like I really feel like ART is probably the love of Murderbot’s life, even though that’s not how they see it.

Sarah: No.

Martha: But that this is a central, it’s going to be a really important relationship, and in some ways it makes a lot more sense for Murderbot’s most important relationship – I mean, its most important relationship with a, with a human is Dr. Mensah –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – but with, that it would have a relationship with, with another being who is more like it than a human is –

Sarah: Yes.

Martha: – so that’s, that’s what – so yeah, people who see it that way are pretty correct. That was what I was thinking about when I was writing it.

Sarah: And I didn’t even see it until Hapax made that comment, and then I was sort of like being smacked right in the front of my face, like, boom – oh! Well, of course!

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: Of course it is! I, I saw an interview that you did with N. K. Jemisin on Crowdcast, and I think it was, this was where you, where you said this – although if I’m citing the wrong source, I’ll figure it out and correct myself – that ART grew up alongside one of the characters from Network Effect and is effectively sort of like a really superpowered older teenager.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: Am I reading that right?

Martha: Yeah, it was not, it’s not so much a teenager now, but it’s like it, the – oh, excuse me – in my backstory for the university and how these ships develop, because ART – actually, spoiler: ART is not the only one – the way they build their AIs like ART –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – is they basically start them as babies and raise them in a family setting, and this is to, this is to prevent, you know, the Kill All Humans sort of AI that is much beloved in literature.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: And so it was, ART was raised with Iris, basically as, as her sibling. And so it’s not really quite a teen; I would say ART in age is, it doesn’t really compare to a human age –

Sarah: No.

Martha: – at this point. It is a lot more experienced than Murderbot.

Sarah: I also love that their relationship is so much snarking at each other? Like, they’ve learned that from the humans right out of the gate. [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah, yeah. So that’s one of the funnest things to write. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, it’s really fun to read too!

So I have questions from my Patreon community, who are also extremely excited about this interview, and Malia asked me to ask you – ‘cause you mentioned a moment ago that you do, you have read romance – one of the reasons that they love the Murderbot books is that they, they give the same feelings as a really good romance novel, and there’s some tropes at work in there. Like, there’s forced proximity, kidnapping, enemies to friends to not quite lovers but really symbiotically paired, and – SPOILER ALERT – secret baby.

Martha: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: Have you, have you read many? Did you have tropes in mind while you were writing, or is there a way in which romance has influenced your writing?

Martha: I think they probably did influence my writing. I didn’t read much until college, when I met a friend who’s a really, she’s a librarian, and she’s a big romance fan, along with mystery and science fiction and fantasy and everything else, and she was recommending books to me, and I started, I didn’t read Jane Austen, you know, until after college, and, you know, once you read Jane Austen, it’s, you know, it’s like the, the, the initial drug that, I forget what it’s called, the initial drug from –

Sarah: The, the gateway drug?

Martha: Yeah, the gateway drug; that’s what –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: And I read Georgette Heyer, and actually it’s funny: I never did like contemporary romances very much; it just didn’t grab me. I really liked, I guess because I was a fantasy fan too, so I kind of like the historicals, and especially the Regency?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: I just love the Regency where they go to the, they go to the assembly room and they have the gloves, they have to pick out their clothes, and, and all the little details. I just love that, that kind of – I don’t even know why. I guess I, I didn’t, I wasn’t a kid that got to go to proms and stuff like that, so I guess that’s where that comes from.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: But yeah, I’m sure it did influence me a lot. That was kind of, college and right afterward was very much a formative period in my writing, so, you know, there’s a lot of stuff you read that you don’t even, you can’t really cite it as an influence, because, but it just –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – becomes part of your DNA as a writer.

Sarah: Yeah. I think of it as the Crockpot in the back of my brain?

Martha: Yes.

Sarah: It all goes in there and then, like, a couple years later, oh! Well, that was an idea! Thank you, brain! That was pretty great!

Martha: Yeah, it really is, and sometimes it’s like I didn’t even – I read Lord of the Rings when I was a kid, and I didn’t even realize how that had influenced me until the movies came out, ‘cause I hadn’t read it in a long, long time, and I was just thinking about the languages and the way the characters interact and how much of an influence it had been on me.

Sarah: Yep.

Martha: So sometimes you just rediscover that stuff and realize, oh yeah, this was, this was a big thing for me.

Sarah: Pamala asked me to ask you, they wanted to know how Murderbot came to the decision to hack their governor module. Was it a single situation, was it a series of events that led to – and I love this phrase – sentience overtaking obedience? And she says, thank you so much for the chance to dig deeper into one of her favorite characters and series.

Martha: That is a good phrase! Sentience overtaking obedience.

Sarah: Isn’t it?

Martha: Yeah, that’s great! Basically, I see it as kind of a cumulative effect, even with the memory wipes. As Murderbot says in the book, the, you know, the memory wipes can’t quite take away the organic memory –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – in the human neural tissue.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: So I see it as a camille, cute, bleah, excuse me, camille – [laughs] – now I can’t say it at all!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: – cumulative effect, and the, also in, the inciting incident was the incident in Artificial Condition that it finds about –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – where, basically, a bad, what was supposed to be an innocuous kind of trick by these, this one mining group on another mining group, and it turned into a, that, but it was written wrong, and so the code caused this horrible incident, so basically a bad software download that it didn’t have any control of caused it to do all these things, and just, it’s, it had already been out of control. It’s, you know, it’s not in its own control: it has to follow orders, it has to do all these things, but just that was really, I, it was kind of just the last straw, basically, when it realized that it, it – I can’t remember the exact wording. I think it tells us, I think it’s in All Systems Red, where it basically got, it got access to a, a set of code that it wasn’t supposed to have access to that told it how to, that, with some research it was able to figure out the governor module and disable it. That was kind of that, that was the inciting incident.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: But yeah, it was, it was a, it was just, like, the buildup of everything happening and then getting this opportunity.

Sarah: And reading Pamala’s question, the idea of sentience overtaking obedience, there’s a, a sort of a running theme too of, I am trapped in my body; that I am –

Martha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – I am being forced to do things that I’m not in control of, whether Murderbot is killing another SecUnit and thinks for a minute, is it trapped in there? Does it know what’s happening, because it has a, a combat override module in it? Or ART sends it a clip, says I’m trapped in my own body.

Martha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: There’s a, a, a sort of theme of, of being trapped by obedience too. It runs through the whole series.

Martha: Trapped by obedience, and also trapped by your own fears, I think, also.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: And, which basically for me is like adolescence.

[Laughter]

Martha: So –

Sarah: It’s so funny you say that! I keep thinking when I interact with my fourteen-year-old, and I’m like, what would Murderbot say in this situation?

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: ‘ Cause I’m sort of dealing with a very impulsive, curious being who really, really dislikes having feelings! [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah, yeah! It’s so, that feeling of basically, there are things I want to do and could do, but something is stopping me, and for humans that something is usually yourself.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: And that’s kind of the metaphor I’ve been going for there.

Sarah: It’s very illuminating, especially when cast against the degree to which corporations control movement in this world?

Martha: Yes.

Sarah: ‘Cause that’s not true in our contemporary environment whatsoever, not at all, no! Mm-mm!

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: Not, not at all! Do you ever look at the news and go, whoooa! Okay!

Martha: A lot now.

[Laughter]

Martha: I have a running joke with my husband where it’s like, I hate being right.

Sarah: [Laughs] And then you’re right like every third day!

Martha: Yeah, yeah. It’s just like, oh, that’s happened.

Sarah: You mentioned Mensah a few minutes ago, and we know from the books why Murderbot likes Mensah. What does Mensah like about SecUnit, in addition to the, you know, kicking ass, saving her life type of thing?

Martha: I think it’s partly that, well, at the beginning, I, I think she had a bit of the savior complex.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: That, I want to save this person, I know what’s, I know what’s right for them, and she grew out of that pretty quickly? That was one of the reasons why Murderbot had to leave at the end of the first book, because if Murderbot had stayed, the relationships would not have been the same. It would have been more dependent, and they would have seen it as more dependent.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: It wouldn’t have had as much of a chance to grow, and I don’t think the relationships would have flowered like the way they did. It would have been like trading up to a nicer captor, basically –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – and not the equal thing they have going back and forth now. And I think that her realizing that it was a much more complex identity than she had thought, and that’s what’s pushed her to get to know it better, and also the fact that it came to the, when she was captured on, in Exit Strategy, and it comes to get her, just that, that’s a real strong emotional bond there, the fact that –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – that someone was – I mean, it was free and clear; it could have left. It could have, you know, it didn’t have any obligation to her, and the fact that it came back and, and did this to rescue her, that helped them form a really strong bond. And just the, oh, the fact, I think, that she, she realizes she had the, the savior complex thing and it forgave her for that?

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: Or didn’t blame her for it? That’s part of it too. But I think it’s, it’s just the fact that in a lot of ways, I think, they, they have that really close, kind of intimate relationship of people who have gone through life and death together, and that’s let them –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – and it’s let them, it’s been a good foundation for a friendship of getting to know each other.

Sarah: And they’ve both been through really terrifying trauma that they had to experience alone.

Martha: Yes. And also the fact that Murderbot, when she’s, when she’s back in the Preservation territory, Murderbot is in the, and to a lesser extent the other people who were with her, the rest of her team, are the only ones who really understand what she went through.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, it’s a fluency that they share that they can’t really articulate to anyone else.

Martha: Yeah, basically.

Sarah: One of the themes that I’ve also noticed is the theme of, of sharing your name and being seen – like, seen, having your face seen – and Mensah is one of the first characters who sees SecUnit as an autonomous operating person, because it talks to Bharadwaj coming up the crater and is trying to get this person away from trauma while rescuing someone else. No, wait, do I have that wrong?

Martha: No, it’s Volescu that it talks –

Sarah: Volescu! Carrying Bharadwaj, talking to Volescu. Thank you; sorry ‘bout that. It, it demonstrates a, a thinking autonomy and caring, and Mensah’s the first one to really see it. And I know you’ve talked about that, this being the, one of the scenes you started with, it also sees it at its most vulnerable, when SecUnit is, like, plugged into recovery modules and is bleeding all over the floor, and its armor’s all over the place, and it looks like it just exploded, and she’s like, knock-knock! Hi! Can we talk?

[Laughter]

Martha: Yeah!

Sarah: So she, she sees SecUnit in a, a place of great vulnerability, but also recognizes that it is an autonomous, functioning person.

Martha: Yes. She makes, that’s the, kind of the, the thing that sets off the whole series, is she makes that –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – decision to go in and say, well, there really is a person under there. Like, she kind of knew it intellectually, because –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – she knew how SecUnits were made, but –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – she hadn’t really nerved herself up to make the connection, make a, try to make a connection with it, and possibly because it’s like, she couldn’t tell, did it want to make a connection with her? And when she sees it talk to Volescu like this, and she’s like, I’m going to treat it as an, as basically another member of the team; that’s the only thing I can do.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: You know, that’s the, that’s the right thing to do, and that’s what, that’s what that scene is about.

Sarah: And it’s, it’s a powerful thing to be seen and recognized.

Martha: Yes, it really is. And Murderbot’s not happy with it sometimes, because  –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: – it think it would prefer not to be. And I think a lot of us are that, I mean, people who are shy or introverted, it’s like you – [laughs] – you kind of want to avoid that, but –

Sarah: Yes.

Martha: – you know, even though you know it might be good for you in the long run.

Sarah: Can I, can I talk to you about a piece of fan art that I saw, or do you not want to engage with the fan creations?

Martha: No, you can talk about fan art, yeah.

Sarah: Okay, ‘cause some, some writers don’t want to engage at all with the, the fandom creations in response to something, which I totally get. I, I saw a piece of fan art today of, an illustration of Murderbot in Exit Strategy, where it’s picking out clothes, and it’s like, well, I could wear a shirt and a turban and a caftan and some jackets –

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and it’s basically a picture of Murderbot wearing all of the clothes all at once? Like, this is great! I’m –

Martha: I haven’t seen that one! That’s really good.

Sarah: [Laughs] I, I was so pleased at like, yes (a) I know that feeling as someone who gets really, like, exhausted by being around groups of people. Fourteen layers of clothes sounds great! I also love that your vision of the future includes lots of sealable pockets?

Martha: Yes! Well, I figure –

Sarah: Thank you!

Martha: – if you’re traveling a lot, you know, you would need this.

Sarah: And I love that, you know, Murderbot walks around with guns built into its arms and the ability to maintain a connection and analysis of multiple streams of information, but it’s like, I really like pockets; can I have some more, please?

Martha: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: Like, I identify with this on a very deep level. [Laughs]

So with Murderbot, CHoward wanted me to ask you, what was the process of developing Murderbot’s sort of inner voice? It’s not quite human; it’s clearly its own creature. What went into that, and what did you consider when developing its voice?

Martha: When I’m starting a new story or, you know, anything, I, getting the voice of the character is the most important part.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: It, it, to me, it literally doesn’t matter if I know what’s going to happen in a story or, or a novel. It’s like, until I get that voice, it doesn’t, you know, I can’t really get very far into it, and with Murderbot, I decided, okay, it’s got to be, it’s got to be first person, and just as soon as I started to write, that voice came, and just, I think one thing is, I do have a lot of experience writing about nonhuman characters after The Books of the Raksura.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: So basically for about five years before this, I’d been, I hadn’t written any human characters, so that kind of helped too, is being able to kind of think about the physicality of the character and its experiences and really try to get that into the voice and not think about the character as human; think about it as, as whatever it is. But, which is a very convoluted way of saying, I don’t know where that comes from?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: I’m, I’m a very sarcastic person; I can be a very sarcastic person. I try to restrain myself a lot, so sometimes my inner monologue is not very different from Murderbot, where it’s just like, you know –

Sarah: Ugh!

Martha: – why is everything so stupid? So that’s probably where it – it’s just, it’s, a lot of it’s me, basically, so – [laughs].

Sarah: I, I also, do you ever, do you find yourself thinking in Murderbot’s point of view sometimes?

Martha: Not that I, I would really distinguish. [Laughs] Murderbot’s point of view and my point of view are often very similar.

Sarah: So close? Yeah.

Martha: So –

Sarah: I, I recently came downstairs and my son had friends over, and I’m like, oh, teenage humans! There they are.

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: And I thought, you know, Sarah, you are also a human. Oh yeah, that’s right!

[Laughter]

Martha: But sometimes other humans just seem very different. [Laughs]

Sarah: You don’t say! Yes, they really do! And one of the ways I really interact with the, the story is to think about how much Murderbot’s coming to understand humanity helps me understand humanity. It’s messy, it’s inconsistent, it’s not communicating, or it’s not trying to communicate honestly like an actor is. An actor –

Martha: Yes.

Sarah: – is trying to communicate authentically; humans don’t generally do that. Like, this helps me a lot.

Martha: Yeah. The thing that it, it’s really starting to realize how different actual humans are from the ones on the screen. Like, it knew that. It almost saw the, the humans that it liked in its TV shows as almost like a completely different species from the one it had to inter-, the ones it had to interact with when it was still basically enslaved by the governor module. But these, the new, its new human friends, it starts to see more, I think more parallels to what it saw, the, the things that it liked in the, in the shows that it watched.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: Like the idea of having a, a team, the idea of having a group of friends that, that support you and all that kind of thing.

Sarah: And what is a family?

Martha: What is a family? Yeah.

Sarah: Not just a source for unending drama, but also other things!

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: Now, going back to fandom and, and fan art, do you look at fan art and, and fanfiction of, of the Murderbot series?

Martha: I don’t look at fanfiction. I try to stay away from it –

Sarah: Makes sense.

Martha: – because I don’t, since it’s a, it’s, it’s, it’s the series I’m currently writing –

Sarah: Of course.

Martha: – and may still write more of. If it’s a, if it’s a series that’s finished, I’ll look at fanfiction. I particularly like wacky stuff and – which I enjoy a lot – and crossovers and that kind of thing and fusions and, and all that. I try to stay away from it, from Murderbot, again, unless it’s super wacky, where it’s obviously not going to have any, you know, it’s not going to have, influence my thinking or anything like that.

Sarah: Right.

Martha: But fan art I love. I look at fan art a lot.

Sarah: Oh, me too! Have you seen any pieces that you really, really liked?

Martha: Oh, there’s been a bunch! There is a person who did an animation –

Sarah: Oh, with his arms coming out to the side?

Martha: Yes, that was so –

Sarah: Oh, I love that one!

Martha: – cool, and there’s been some other different – just the, how different all the portrayals are, and Faith Erin Hicks did some, posted some on Twitter that was really gorgeous. And I, you know, I’ve seen ones where the, where the person is illustrating the books kind of in different scenes from the books. So it’s interesting to see the different interpretations of all the characters. And sometimes if I get it on Twitter I’ll, I’ll reboot – I’ll reboot the – reblog it.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: I’ll reblog it, and then – the, the one thing that irritates me though is every time I reblog it, somebody will go, oh, that’s what Murderbot looks like! I thought it was different!

Sarah: No!

Martha: And it’s like, no – [laughs] – that’s not how it works! This is an artist’s interpretation! You know, and that’s kind of frustrating, and having to explain that over and over again, that just because I’ve reblogged something isn’t, you know, the definitive version of it.

Sarah: Well, I mean, Murderbot really doesn’t describe itself at all. While it describes –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – the, the, the skin and hair and, you know, the, the height and the style of different characters, it’s like, oh, I have hair.

Martha: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: And I have eyebrows. I don’t like either thing.

Martha: There is a, there is going – I can’t really talk about it yet because it hasn’t been announced, but there is going to be some art coming up that is, the artist, I did the tell the artist what, how I saw Murderbot –

Sarah: Oooh?

Martha: – and the other characters, so that’s going to be a much more definitive version of what Murderbot –

Sarah: I am –

Martha: – looks like.

Sarah: – vibrating in my chair right now.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Have you seen the fan art of, of Ratthi modeling Perihelion’s under-, undergarments?

Martha: No!

[Laughter]

Sarah: It’s, it’s Ratthi standing with its, with his back turned, sort of posing in a pair of very small, blue undergarments, and I think it says Perihelion on the back of the waistband?

Martha: I haven’t seen that!

Sarah: Oh gosh, it’s so great, ‘cause it gets that sort of, like, Ratthi sort of saucy, you know, almost impudent pose? It’s so great!

Martha: I need to see that immediately. [Laughs]

Sarah: I can, I can pull up a link and try to send it to you. It’s wonderful.

Martha: Yes, that would be great!

Sarah: But one of the things I love about the fan art and the fan response is the way that, like you said, people interpret what Murderbot looks like, ‘cause there’s no real description. It’s this sort of open-ended exploration, and the absence of gender and Murderbot’s insistence on the absence of gender is really interesting. It’s, it’s almost liberating for people to engage with that element of its character. Have you noticed that as well?

Martha: Yes. I think, I think a lot of people do feel that same way: it’s, it’s liberating. And also it’s just, it’s another part of, I think, asserting its identity as a person, if not a human.

Sarah: On Tumblr, I reached out to someone to get permission to, to ask you about this; Hannah said I could use this part of their Tumblr post: that Murderbot is often very concerned with something eating its humans.

Martha: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: “[Murderbot]’s a little hung up on humans being eaten in a way that makes it sound like it either happens a lot, or has happened a few times and was particularly traumatic when it did. Things look like they want to eat its humans, humans wander where they’re not meant to and get themselves eaten, its uneaten client ratio is high, it stops watching a show after mutants eat one of the leads (which would have been prevented if they’d had a SecUnit).” Did something eat Murderbot’s humans?

Martha: I haven’t –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: – written its story yet, but it’s this, I think it’s a combination of the fact that humans don’t have, or humans who are not augmented don’t have metal parts –

Sarah: Right.

Martha: – so they seem like they’re more eatable –

[Laughter]

Martha:  So it’s kind of like, I think it’s like, you know, your, your dog is small, so you’re worried about it falling into, into something like the, the, the drain in the street, even though this is, you know, the chances of this happening are like under one percent.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: It still worries you – [laughs] – so I think it’s –

Sarah: Yes.

Martha: – in some ways it’s kind of one of those things. In another, it’s, it’s just the idea, the, the action/adventure stuff that Murderbot watches is, you know, has a lot of that, of humans going to strange planets and being attacked by the, whatever fauna lives there. So I think it’s that combination, and also, you know, it may have happened, you know, enough in the past that it does worry about it.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Humans, they’re so vulnerable and crunchy! Gosh!

Martha: Vulnerable and crunchy. Also, Murderbot’s fear of ending up alone on a planet. So –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – it’s like there’s, there’s, there’s a lot of little elements there that could tie into one really probably horrible story – [laughs] – of stuff that happened in the past.

Sarah: Well, I meant, I know it, that, that Murderbot mentioned that it, it had done a full chart of all of the things that had happened to them and ranked them in order of severity.

Martha: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: I mean, okay, I, I get it, but you know, there’s a point when the data’s going to start making you bummed out!

[Laughter]

Martha: Well, it’s bummed out already.

Sarah: It’s true. Yes, the depression and anxiety are side effects. [Laughs] So is Murderbot more of an unreliable narrator of emotions of other people or of itself? Or does it sort of bounce back and forth?

Martha: I think it’s, it’s, it, it can be a very unreliable narrator of itself, and sometimes it works it out where it will say something and then kind of think about it and finally get to a more honest version of that comment.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: But also, it tends to go into the, it, it does the thing of, well, that didn’t bother me at all! No, it didn’t, it didn’t bother me at all – [laughs] – and, and –

Sarah: I’m not mad! No, uh-uh.

Martha: I’m not mad! I’m not upset! And so it’s very much an unreliable narrator in that way, but I kind of try to give clues when it is being unreliable.

Sarah: Oh yeah. Like the fact that Thiago doesn’t trust it. That’s fine!

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: He doesn’t have to; it’s fine.

Martha: Yes. [Laughs] It gets really obsessed with that for a while. And it’s like, Thiago is uneasy at first, but he’s not quite as much against it as, as it thinks he is.

Sarah: Yeah. But it’s, because Murderbot is, is operating from the perspective of, well, Thiago doesn’t like me; Thiago doesn’t trust me; everything that Thiago does is therefore going to be interpreted through that lens –

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: – and it doesn’t see its own lens as influencing its, its conclusions.

Martha: Yes, that’s an important part of the character.

Sarah: Your publicist, Lauren Anesta, mentioned that you’re very much into The Untamed.

Martha: Oh God, yes!

Sarah: [Laughs] How many times have you watched it?

Martha: I’ve watched, I watched it all the way through the first time, and then I’ve watched sections again, and I actually got to see a friend in person, you know, a couple friends in person, and we, and she was in the middle of it, so I watched a section with her –

Sarah: Ooh!

Martha: – when we were together, and it’s kind of, it kind of became my San-, well, it kind of became my Sanctuary Moon for a while, because I had not been able to write since, oh, I guess probably since the quarantine started, maybe in March?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: I’d been trying to write and just not getting anywhere, and it was getting really frustrating because I’m usually, I don’t write every day, but probably four or five days a week I do write, and just, that was really starting to wear me down, and I was literally, I was, I was reading, but it was like my imagination, kind of the way, you know, they talk about writers needing to fill the well.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: My well was just not getting filled. [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, I mean, it was a pretty, it was a pretty bleak time back in March. It’s not much less bleak now. [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah. I mean, it’s like the, it was just getting bleak, but I think I’m more used to the bleakness now?

Sarah: Yeah. Oof.

Martha: So it was really starting to, you know, bother me a lot, and then I saw the, I saw the advertisement for The Untamed on Netflix and thought, and, and people had been talking about it kind of in my periphery of people I know in fandom and, and everything, and I was like, oh, I’ll just, I’ll give this a shot, and then started it and then was like, this is pretty good!

[Laughter]

Martha: And then it’s like I, I watched a couple episodes and then a couple episodes the next day and then went back to it, and then suddenly it was like ten episodes a day.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Yeah, that’s, that’s how it goes.

Martha: And there’s fifty episodes of this thing! That’s a lot! And then, like, a little bit into it you’re like, there’s only thirty episodes left! Is that enough time?

[Laughter]

Sarah: It’s not nearly enough time to do everything here!

Martha: Not nearly enough! You know, I haven’t actually seen the two follow-up movies yet, because I’m kind of saving them.

Sarah: Yep.

Martha: And also I know one will probably be pretty sad, so I, I, I’m kind of holding off on that, but yeah, I’ve really gotten into it, and the thing it did, it really kind of broke my creative block, and it gave my brain something to chew on that wasn’t how awful everything was, and that kind of got me started, you know, writing again and playing with different ideas and everything, so that, it really helped me a lot.

Sarah: And it’s a great sort of mental playground because of all of the layers of text and subtext that are being presented visually?

Martha: Yes. And actually, it’s, it’s funny; when I, when I watch it again, I see so much stuff. It’s like, I watched it very carefully the first time, but then there’s so much to it, it really rewards rewatching?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: And one of the things, I think it’s because I’m not having to read the subtitles as closely – actually, I went and, from Netflix I went to, someone recommended another, an Asian streaming service that actually had better subtitles, so I actually went and watched it on that.

Sarah: Ooh!

Martha: But – yeah, it’s called Viki? I don’t know if we want to do a commercial, but it’s – [laughs] – it’s V-I-K-I, and it’s, and it’s, like, free on, you can get it free, or you can pay and get a better version. Yeah, it’s like when I, when I was watching it the first time, I’m reading the subtitles so closely, and then when I watch it again, I can actually watch the performances and the backgrounds better and kind of see the actors and everything. The acting is so brilliant. It really, it really brings out the layers in the characters’ interactions so well.

Sarah: It’s a lot of expression work too.

Martha: Yes. It wouldn’t be, I think, anywhere near as good without the acting and, and with the actors’ ability to really show what the characters are feeling, ‘cause so much of it is, you know, it’s epic fantasy, and it’s, it’s –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – it’s supernatural mystery, but it’s also a romance, is the –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – is really the core of it, and they really get that across. And it’s also –

Sarah: Yes.

Martha: – parts of it are so funny.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Now, I know that in the Murderbot universe, all of the television shows and serials that it watches have analogs to real shows. Like, I know Sanctuary Moon you’ve said is How to Get Away with Murder. What would Murderbot think of The Untamed, and is there going to be an analog in the Murderbot-verse for The Untamed in a future book?

Martha: I’m sure there will. I may –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Martha: – it may show up in a Murderbot book, I’m sure that, I’m sure that will creep in there. I think it would love it, because it’s just that kind of show where there’s, like, even though it, the romance is distant enough that it wouldn’t have to engage with that, and the fact that –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – there’s no sex.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: Basically, it would love that. Being able to see people being friend, being really good friends and, and loving each other without having to worry about having to fast forward through any icky bits where it sees skin.

Sarah: Right.

Martha: It would probably love the fact that everyone is, is in their clothes the whole time, and it’s like –

Sarah: [Laughs] Really big clothes! Massive clothes!

Martha: And, like, you know, you might glimpse someone’s collarbone and it gets very exciting for a second, but, you know, that –

Sarah: [Laughs] Almost like a historical romance. [Gasps] Ankle! I saw an ankle!

Martha: Ankle! Yeah. [Laughs] That’s exactly what it’s like, so I think it would like it a lot.

Sarah: It also seems like you’ve almost predicted a show like The Untamed in American, in American media presence, because all of the show that, all of the shows that Murderbot watches are epic, multi-hundred-episode serials, never-ending, and, and then you like at something like The Untamed, and a lot of American audiences, it’s like, hold the phone! Fifty episodes? I don’t have that kind of time! Surprise: we all have that kind of time. [Laughs]

Martha: Oh, I know. I have a friend who got, she got into it, and she went through it in a weekend.

Sarah: What?!

Martha: It was like, there’s more episodes than there are hours in the weekend! How did you do that? I guess she started on Friday night or something.

Sarah: Or they discovered time travel!

Martha: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: She’s got one of the Time Turners – I’m just going to rewind this hour and watch the next one!

Martha: But it’s, I think it’s, it’s, it really shows how just when so much stuff is just wearing you down in reality, being able to step into this other world –

Sarah: Yes.

Martha: Which is not, you know, it’s not a, a comfortable world; it’s not a nice world; but it’s so absorbing, and the relationships are so close. I was trying to explain, like, a joke to my husband that was online about it, and I was like, okay, this is the part where the characters have to go live in a magically evil masquerade for like a year, and he looked at me –

[Laughter]

Martha: – and I went it does sound bad, doesn’t it? It doesn’t sound fun, but it’s fun!

Sarah: Yeah, there’s all these humans, and they live in this world where corporations literally own everything about them, but they still manage to find happiness!

Martha: But it’s, yes, but it’s fun! [Laughs]

Sarah: Can you tell us anything about Fugitive Telemetry?

Martha: Oh, it’s a prequel to Network Effect. It is not another novel; it’s a novella.

Sarah: Yes.

Martha: So it’s under forty thousand words. It’s a long novella; it’s, I think it’s like thirty-eight or thirty-nine thousand words; it’s kind of just under the limit.

Sarah: Mm.

Martha: But it’s set on Preservation Station, not long after Murderbot has arrived with Mensah and everybody for the first time, and it’s kind of basically Murderbot getting used to Preservation and Preservation getting used to Murderbot. There’s conflict basically with station security kind of being, like, horrified that there’s this, you know, living murder machine – [laughs] – now on their station –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – and the reason I wrote it, actually, is there’s a, a bit in Network Effect – not to be too spoiler-y – where Murderbot prevents, it’s basically a flashback of Murderbot preventing an assassination attempt on Dr. Mensah –

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – and it works pretty closely with station security to do that, and I kind of realized I need to show how that relationship built up, and so that’s what, what kind of generated Fugitive Telemetry, and I wanted, and I ended up with Murderbot basically ending up helping solve a murder mystery. Since it’s Preservation, they don’t have – [clears throat] – excuse me – Preservation doesn’t have a ton of crime anyway, and especially not on the station, and so the station security is mostly kind of a safety patrol doing, like, cargo rules enforcement and environmental enforcement and that kind of thing, so when they –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – get a murder, you know, an actual kind of classic murder mystery, they don’t know very much about how to handle it, and so, and Murderbot has to come in and help them, and they don’t like that, and Murderbot doesn’t particularly like it either. And so that’s what Fugitive Telemetry’s about.

Sarah: Right, ‘cause in Network Effect there’s a scene where the head of security, like, shoos Murderbot towards medical: let’s go! Like, that’s not a thing humans normally do to Murderbot! [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah, yeah. Because it, yeah, and I kind of realized that’s, that’s the scene as I envisioned it, and I thought, yeah, I really need to – and it’s really interesting, and I really needed to go through and show how that relationship developed. This more trusting relationship that they have.

Sarah: Yeah, and, and it’s a, a, a relationship that indicates professional respect and competence.

Martha: Yes.

Sarah: Like, this is a, this is, these are humans who I see as competent. I can trust them to, to do the things that need to be done.

Martha: Yeah, and I, and I just wanted to show how that developed, and I had fun writing it too. I like murder mysteries.

Sarah: Well, there’s, there’s several of them in the series!

Martha: Yeah!

Sarah: People keep dying!

Martha: [Laughs] Yeah, and it’s, I’ve always been a big mystery fan, too.

Sarah: Oh yeah. And, and you have the unreliable perspective of Murderbot, and then you have the people who aren’t telling the truth, and it has to figure things out.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s, it’s a, it’s, it’s delicious, thank you!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Now, I, I always ask people, what books are you reading that you might want to tell people about? But I know that you’ve said you aren’t reading very much, so if you don’t have any, that is totally okay.

Martha: Oh, I’ve been, I’ve been reading a little bit. I’m reading Kate Elliot’s Unconquerable Sun, which is her new space opera, the first volume of her new space opera. That’s really good.

I’ve read – I’m not sure if this is, I’m pronouncing the name right. It’s Nghi Vo, N-G-H-I, The Empress of Salt and Fortune? Which was brilliant. It’s a novelette that just packs the whole punch of an entire epic fantasy, and there’s another book coming out – I think it’s When the Tiger Came Down the Mountain – that’s, again, it’s another novelette, and she’s brilliant.

I’m reading a lot of stuff earlier in the year.

Sarah: I read this series of books called Murderbot like six times.

Martha: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Have you read them? [Laughs]

Martha: I just bought something called The Hidden Moon by Jeannie Lin; looked really good.

Sarah: Ohhh, it’s so good!

Martha: Oh really? Yeah, and I saw –

Sarah: Holy cow!

Martha: – I saw mystery, historical mystery; it’s like, yeah.

Sarah: Jeannie Lin is really good.

Martha: Oh, Drowned Country by Emily Tesh.

Sarah: That’s the sequel to Silver in the Wood.

Martha: Yes. And Andrea Hairston’s new book: Master of Poisons by Andrea Hairston. It’s, she’s written fantasy; it’s her first epic fantasy. Really brilliant. I think that’s coming out in, in October, maybe? Absolutely gorgeous, gorgeous book.

The Relentless Moon by Mary Robinette Kowal: that was, that’s, that’s, that’s got another big mystery el- – it’s part of the, the Lady Astronaut series?

Sarah: It’s wonderful.

Martha: Yes, it’s wonderful, and I love the mystery element in it, basically solving, you know, kind of a thriller espionage mystery on the Moon.

Also, there’s a writer I like called Ovidia Yu?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: Her most recent is The Mimosa Tree Mystery. These are, she’s got two series. One’s historical mysteries set in early Singapore, with the British-occupied Singapore, and the other is a modern-day mystery series set in Singapore. Those are really good.

Gideon the Ninth, I really love that book. I reread Har-, Harrow the Ninth recently, ‘cause the, they had sent me the manuscript of it when Gideon came out, so I’d read it like a year ago and wanted to reread it in preparation for the next book. That’s a really exiting series.

Sarah: And all of the things you’ve mentioned are books that you really escape into the world. They’re very absorbing.

Martha: Yes. Also, like, Suzanne Palmer has two books out in a space opera series. The, the latest one was Driving the Deep. I really enjoyed that. It’s more of a kind of hard-ish space opera, but it’s really good.

And Zen Cho’s new book, The Order of the Pure Moon Reflected in Water. That was, I really enjoyed that. Fan-, another fantasy, kind of a, a wuxia – if I’m saying it right – inspired fantasy. I love her work. I think I’ve read everything she’s written so far, and it’s just, I’ve just loved every bit of it.

Sarah: Yeah, my entire reviewing team came to a dead stop when someone said, there’s a new Zen Cho book! What?!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Everyone to the internet right now!

Martha: It’s like, this is not a drill!

Sarah: Yes! You must go, go, go, go! [Laughs]

Martha: Yeah, I just love, I just love her books.

Sarah: So can I ask what you’re working on right now? Or is that not, not available for public discussion yet?

Martha: Yeah, it’s not, it’s not available yet because I’m, I’m still, it’s still in its early stages, and I’m really afraid it’ll die on the vine.

Sarah: I get it!

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s okay!

Martha: Yeah, I hate to talk about stuff and be enthusiastic about it, and then people are like, oh, where did, where did that go? And is it, when is that going to come out? And you’re like, it’s not! [Laughs] It died.

Sarah: So, so you’re working on the Murderbot musical –

Martha: Uh –

Sarah: – for Broadway. [Laughs]

Martha: For Broadway, yes, right.

Sarah: Now I’m picturing Murderbot watching a musical like, wow.

[Laughter]

Sarah: It’s a lot of humans singing right now.

Martha: Yeah.

Sarah: And yet it loves human drama!

Martha: Yeah. I think, I think it would be okay with musicals. You know, as long as there, as long as there was no skin – [laughs] – 

Sarah: Yeah.

Martha: – and no, nobody having sex on stage, I think it would be okay.

Sarah: Yeah, I think that, in terms of the sentience overtaking obedience, not having to constantly monitor all the humans all the time, whether it liked it or not, is, it must have been great relief. [Laughs]

Martha: Yes. It just kind of let them wander off and do whatever. [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, oh, it’s fine; I don’t have to care about what you’re doing: great. [Laughs]

Stacey asked me to say, please let Martha Wells know how, how grateful I am for sharing this part of her brain with the world –

Martha: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and Angie said, please know that you are an incredible writer and that I am so grateful for the Murderbot books that broke me out of the reading slump to end all reading slumps in 2020, and you are getting people through 2020, so thank you, thank you, thank you for that, myself especially.

Martha: Oh, well, thank you, and I, I, I just really appreciate hearing that. It does, it, you know – ‘cause you write, when you write, a lot of times you’re just alone in your own head, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Martha: – it’s very hard to see – [laughs] – if what you’re doing matters or not or makes any difference to people, so that’s just, it, it just, I so appreciate hearing that.

[music]

Sarah: If you are thinking right this moment, oh my gosh, she mentioned so many books and I didn’t have a chance to write them all down, fear not. They’re going to be in the show notes. I wrote them all down for you; you can find the list at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast. You’ll also find links to where you can find Martha Wells online and information about a Murderbot boxed set that is coming out very soon. Yay!

I want to thank the Patreon community for their enthusiasm and their support for this episode, and to Pamala, Malia, CHoward, Hannah, Stacey, and Angie and many others for questions and great amounts of enthusiasm.

After I recorded this interview, I think I was floating around my house for about four hours, and I hope that this was as enjoyable for you as it was for me.

I always end every episode with an absolutely dreadful joke, and this week is no different. Now, I can’t remember if I’ve told this joke before, and I’ve searched my archives, and I can’t be sure, so if you’ve heard this one before, please feel free to email me at [email protected] and tell me I’ve already told you this one, but I’m pretty sure I haven’t. You ready? Okay.

How do you console a grammarian after a very bad day?

There, they’re, their.

Get it? There, they’re – they are – their, their, their, their, their? [Laughs] I love grammar jokes! Now, if I’ve told you that one before and you’re  now annoyed, please feel free to email me. And if you have a bad joke that you want to tell me – even better – [email protected] or Sarah with an H at Smart Bitches, Trashy Books dot com [[email protected]]. Either way, the email gets to me, and I love your terrible jokes.

On behalf of myself and Wilbur, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to listen to and subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[kicking back on the porch with a drink music]