320. Deep Diving in our OTPs with Amanda, Elyse, and Sarah

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there, and welcome to episode number 320 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. With me today are Elyse and Amanda, and this week we are talking about shipping, literally and figuratively. Do you stan for Dramione? Do you have a lifelong thing for Jareth and Sarah? Are platinum blond antiheroes your jam? Maybe Adam Driver in really high-waisted pants? Are you a fan of Kataang or Zukara, Prince Diamond, or Tuxedo Mask? If any of that made sense, then this episode is for you. Amanda, Elyse, and I are talking about OTPs, our One True Pairings. We talk about our favorite ships, the pairings that always work for us, and what they reveal about our reading catnip. It’s a lot. [Laughs] Often there are patterns in the conflicts of our OTPs that correspond to our favorite romances and our favorite tropes. We ask important questions like, can Amanda set Elyse up with the Predator? How many paranormal workplace romances does Elyse love? (Spoiler alert: many.) Can we avoid discussing celebrity crushes? (Spoiler: no.) And can, did – [laughs] – did Sarah retcon her own ending to Beauty and the Beast? Of course she did! You knew that! Note: there are some epic spoilers for things, because we’re talking about older pieces of entertainment, including Final Fantasy IV, X-Files, the X-Files reboot, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Avatar: The Last Airbender, and others, but I figure if you know about ships, then you probably know about these stories.

So we want to know, what are your favorite OTPs? What pairings still make you happy sigh, and are they related to your reading catnip? We would love for you to tell us, actually. You can email us at [email protected]. You can call and leave a message at 201-371-3272; that’s 201-371-3272. Don’t forget to tell us your name so we can add you to a future episode, because I know this topic is going to come up again. And please be aware that’s a US number, depending on what your international dialing options are like.

This podcast episode and the podcast transcript are brought to you by Cut and Run by Mary Burton, on sale now from Montlake Romance. Twin sisters separated by the past are reunited by unspeakable crimes in New York Times bestselling author Mary Burton’s throat-clutching novel of suspense. Trauma victims are not new to medical examiner Faith McIntyre, but this one is different. The unconscious woman clinging to life after a hit and run is FBI agent Macy Crow. What the woman from Quantico was doing in a dark alley after midnight is just one mystery. The other is more unsettling: Macy is Faith’s mirror image—the twin sister she never knew she had. Faith knew that she was adopted, but now she’s finding out that her childhood concealed other secrets. Following the trail of clues that Macy left behind, Faith and Texas Ranger Mitchell Hayden make a shocking discovery on an isolated country ranch. As the missing pieces of Faith’s and Macy’s dark lives snap into place, Faith is becoming more terrified by what she sees—and by what she must do to save her sister and herself from the past. Cut and Run by Mary Burton is available now from Montlake Romance. And somewhere Elyse is really, really excited and doesn’t know why, because that sounds like all her catnip.

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The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. I’ll have information at the end of the show as to who this is, plus I’ll have a terrible, terrible joke; a preview of what’s coming up on Smart Bitches next week; and, of course, links to all of the books and things that we talk about – there are many.

And now, let’s talk about OTPs. On with the podcast!

[music]

Sarah: All right, according to the state laws of Maryland, I have to inform you I’m recording this, but I figured you knew.

Wilbur: Meow?

Amanda: Ooh, I heard a cat!

Sarah: Yeah, that’s Wilbur. Wilbur is feeling really good, now that he’s had all, all his teeth removed, and he’s making a play to become dominant over Orville, and Orville outweighs him by, like, at least a ton, and Orville is not here for this attempt. So every day there’s a furry coup, it’s noisy, and then they go take a nap together. It’s very weird.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Elyse: Fisher is eyeing me up –

Sarah: Okay.

Elyse: – so he is definitely going to be on the podcast at some point.

Sarah: Fabulous! All cats present!

Elyse: All cats.

Amanda: Linus is asleep in another room, so. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, he needs to get the zoomies and join in the party!

Amanda: He’s in his, in the reading chair that he commandeers for himself every single day.

Elyse: The lion’s chair.

Sarah: Is this the one that’s next to the, the, is this the chair that’s next to the stuffed otter?

Amanda: The stuffed otter’s in the living room.

Sarah: I beg your pardon! I was, I was mistaken.

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: I thought the otter also read with you.

Amanda: No, the stuffed otter’s in the living room behind the couch, and the reading chair is in the reading room. [Laughs]

Sarah: Okay!

Elyse: Does the otter have a name?

Amanda: Maxwell.

Elyse: Okay.

Amanda: And he –

Sarah: That’s a good name!

Amanda: Maxwell, and my roommate put a little bandana on him, so he looks like a little Boy Scout.

Elyse: [Laughs]

Sarah: Aw! Okay. So we are here to talk about our OTPs, and I mentioned this today, and of course I had two people in my house go, your what?

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So in case anyone is not familiar, and I’m pretty sure the, the audience of this podcast is going to be very fluent with this terminology, OTP is your One True Pairing. It is any person in a fandom’s favorite couple. Sometimes they’re canon, which means that they’re part of the original text, and sometimes they’re super not, as is the case with Amanda.

Amanda: Yeah.

Elyse: So Rich asked what we were, we were going to talk about, and I said shipping, and he thought, like, literal –

[Laughter]

Elyse: – transportation of goods. He was a little bit confused.

Sarah: So Elyse, if, if a hero and heroine needed to move several large containers of jellybeans and toilet paper from, let’s say, Chicago to Birmingham, what’s the most efficient shipping?

Elyse: Well, first of all, you don’t want to move a container; you’re going to want to move a, a fifty-three-foot trailer, and I guess –

Sarah: Right.

Elyse: – question would be, does it need to be refrigerated, ‘cause then you’re going to need a reefer. You don’t want to ship this intermodal, because I don’t think there’s any good rail hubs around Birmingham presently. Hi, Fish. Yeah. So, yeah, just, just a driver and, and a reefer or a dry van. It’s going to be your best bet.

Sarah: Good to know! All right, so now that we’ve discussed one kind of shipping –

Elyse: Right.

Sarah: – unless there’s other kinds of shipping you want to – [laughs] – you want to tell us about.

Elyse: I mean, I can talk all day about shipping. We can talk about the different modes –

Sarah: Like, aren’t you going to close down highways to ship a wind turbine?

Elyse: You don’t close them down. You have to run it at night with a police escort.

Sarah: Is this the kind of police escort where the police officer drives zigzag across all lanes of traffic to make everyone behind him slow down?

Elyse: I don’t think they’re going to do that, ‘cause it’s going to be a two-lane highway most of the way, so they’re just –

Sarah: Ah, so they just take up the whole damn lane.

Elyse: Right, so you’re going to have a pilot car ahead and then another car behind, just moderating speed, basically.

Sarah: Well, thanks for tuning in, everybody. This has been shipping.

Elyse: Yeah, this has been Shipping with Elyse.

[Laughter]

Sarah: This has been Shipping with Elyse and Sarah and Amanda and All of Our Cats!

Elyse: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Okay, so we had a random conversation months and months and months ago about our OTPs. Who were our original true pairing couples that we stick with and that are, are basically fundamental to a lot of our tastes as romance readers, which is something that I’ve been investigating a lot in the past year? So – [laughs] – we all made lists of our OTPs, and mine are the most boring –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – ‘cause I only ship canon; it’s really sad. Who wants to go first?

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Amanda, that was an evil laugh.

Amanda: I’ll go first. We’ll, like, just get the trash out of the way first. [Laughs] So a majority of mine are not canon, and you’ll notice that they all kind of follow the same formula, which –

Sarah: Like I said, your OTP is often your catnip, so, you know, story checks out!

Amanda: – which hooray for consistency, I guess.

[Laughter]

Amanda: So my, probably like the first huge ship that I got on was Draco Malfoy and Hermione Granger?

Sarah: Oh my gosh, they have so much terrible chemistry.

Amanda: And that’s when I really started to get into reading fanfic, and in high school my best friend wrote Dramione fanfiction, and it was great.

Sarah: I love that you can grow up with friends who write fic for you. Like –

Amanda: Yeah, I love it!

Sarah: – that is not an experience I had, and I think that’s amazing.

Amanda: [Laughs] And what I really like about this pairing – and the pairings that will come after that – is that you have this kind of guy who is an antihero or is straight-up terrible – like, I’m not going to mince words about the heroes that are in my ships – but then you’d have this kind of like whip-smart, intelligent woman who can kind of like rival him in a way?

Sarah: Hence his, hence his, his disdain for her, because he knows that?

Amanda: Yeah! And then, so, I do these Rec It Wednesdays on our Instagram, and we have one person who asked for recommendations for what is called a Morality Chain, and I had never heard this term before, so I had googled it, and it’s essentially an evil hero who becomes good simply for, like, the love of the heroine.

Elyse: Oh, that is my thing!

Amanda: Yeah, and I was like, I was like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – I think that’s what appeals to me about this is a lot of these heroes that I ship with heroines are terrible people, but they come around because they, you know, see this goodness and this love in another person.

Elyse: Yeah, no, that’s – yep.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Elyse: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, this person is the, this, so this other person is the only reason that they are not killing every motherfucker in the room.

Amanda: Yes. Pretty much.

Sarah: Whoa, that’s a lot to put on one partner.

Amanda: [Laughs] So, but the, the pairing that started it all was Draco and Hermione, and then from there, we have Sarah and Jareth from the Labyrinth.

Elyse: Yep!

Amanda: Which is – [laughs] – another one –

Elyse: Yep. Yeah, no that, yes. So hard. So hard. Like, I think I hit puberty when David Bowie walked onscreen and his junk –

Amanda: Oh yeah.

Elyse: Like, that was what triggered it in me.

Amanda: It’s that, those tight pants and the bulge that just keeps getting bulgier each time you see it.

[Laughter]

Elyse: Oh God, and the eye shadow and the mullet wig.

Amanda: Oh, the hair? Like, the platinum blond hair? Oh my goodness.

Elyse: David Bowie was so charismatic that, like, he could not be fully evil. Like, you had to, he was, there was still David Bowie there.

Amanda: Yeah. I, that movie – maybe I’ll watch that movie this weekend. [Laughs] But that’s another one, and then going into video games, Final Fantasy VII is such an amazing video game, and probably one of the best video games ever made, but – and I’m going to spoil the game, ‘cause it’s been out for, like, twenty years already – you, the main character’s name is Cloud, and he discovers this flower girl in a church, and her name’s Eris or Aerith, depending on how you want to pronounce it, and she kind of like becomes the healer of your party, and he has, like, a crush on her, and she’s so sweet and nice, and the main bad guy, Sephiroth, has, like, this huge fucking sword, and he always has, like, his shirt unbuttoned and, like, this –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – long, like, platinum, like white platinum hair, and don’t make the mistake, like me, and really level up Aerith and put all your shit into making her a great healer, because part of the storyline is Sephiroth will fucking kill her. There’s nothing you can do. That is part of the storyline. She dies.

Sarah: Dude!

Amanda: [Laughs] I know! So I shipped them together, and I read a lot of fanfic of, like, what if she didn’t really die and had, like, a, a lot of Beauty-and-the-Beast-esque fanfic with those two. And then I think the last ship that I want to talk about is, I used to be – I’m just letting all of my nerdery kind of hang out in this –

Sarah: And you know everyone listening is like, yeah, yeah, mm-hmm, me too, yeah, uh-huh, yeah, go ahead, keep going, I’m with you, yep.

Amanda: Actually, two are on my list; hold on. So I used to watch a lot of anime, and there is this anime series called Inuyasha, and it’s very long, and the plot doesn’t really go anywhere for a while, but the main character, the hero, has a brother who is a demon, who also has really long, white hair and a huge sword?

Sarah: Ah, you have a type, eh?

Amanda: I guess. [Laughs] And one of the secondary characters, her name is Sango, and she’s a demon hunter and has this giant fucking boomerang. So I shipped them together. Demon/demon hunter: you can see why that would be a problem. Her love, Sango’s love interest in the show was, like, a lecherous monk, and I fucking hated him. She deserved so much better. So, like, another, like, evil/good pairing.

And then my last ship is my most recent ship, and I know will cause a lot of disagreement, but I’m not shipping this because I think it’s canon or even a good idea. Like, most of my ships in reality would probably not work out – [laughs] – but I can suspend my disbelief for, like, an HEA. But my most recent and probably my most controversial ship is Rey and Kylo Ren from the new Star Wars series.

Elyse: I don’t think that’s controversial. Like, they definitely –

Amanda: Oh, there was some, there was some stuff going around on Twitter about, like –

Elyse: Well, there was a lot of stuff –

Amanda: – that was a terrible ship. [Laughs]

Elyse: – there was a lot of stuff going around on Twitter about that movie in general, because men ruin everything.

Amanda: Yeah, of course.

Elyse: No, but I mean, they went there in the most recent movie. Like, they went there hard!

Amanda: Yeah. They did, and I fully boarded that ship. I was first in line with my tickets. I had my hankie out to wave goodbye to the dock as we set sail.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Did you throw confetti? Do you throw confetti off the, off the side of the ship?

Amanda: I was the one who christened it, and I broke the champagne bottle.

[Laughter]

Amanda: Bon voyage, essentially.

Sarah: Okay!

Amanda: But I just like the tension that comes with, like, an enemies-to-lovers sort of trope, and that’s also something that I look for in my romances. I love that added extra – like, you have sexual tension, but there’s also that tension of, like, I’m not supposed to like you, but I’m, it turns out that I actually like you, and I hate myself for liking you – [laughs] –

Elyse: Yes.

Amanda: – sort of deal.

Sarah: See, I, I totally, totally see where they were going, although I have to say, the part where he turned around and his pants were pulled up to his ribs, and then his, like, giant pale – I was like, what is happening? Put your shirt on!

[Laughter]

Elyse: Yes.

Amanda: Very wide chest. Very wide.

Elyse: They picked, like –

Sarah: Oh my God!

Elyse: They picked the most, like, alarming pants for that scene. They’re like, how, how can we make this not sexy? Who has mom jeans lying around?

Sarah: [Laughs] I know!

Amanda: I feel like –

Elyse: We’d really like, can you tuck your nipples in, Adam? Just –

[Laughter]

Amanda: There’s a high-waisted level where, like, there’s a good area where the high waist can sit –

Elyse: Right.

Amanda: – but it’s a very fine line between too high. [Laughs]

Sarah: Right?

Elyse: Yeah.

Sarah: That was like any minute now he was going to start dancing flamenco.

Amanda: It looked like he had one of those –

Sarah: And he just forgot his jacket. [Laughs]

Amanda: – You know those yoga pants have, like, those tummy panels?

Elyse: Yes.

Amanda: You know what I mean?

Sarah: Yes, they’re like maternity pants, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amanda: Yeah, that’s what it looked like, but for his, like, chest.

Sarah: He just pulled it all the way up!

[Laughter]

Amanda: Or, you know, maybe he bought the wrong size and was like, well, if I leave this sitting at my waist, the crotch is going to be down to my knees, so I’ve just got to pull ‘em up as high as they’ll go.

Sarah: [Laughs] Mr. Driver, the waistband folds over. Oh no, cameras were rolling. Oh well.

Amanda: Too late!

Sarah: Too late! Oh my God! See, I can see, like the scene where they were fighting back to back, and then he’s like, okay, come run this evil empire with me! It’ll be great! And she’s like, were we even just watching the same battle?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, they’re, they’re still in very different places, but they’re very good fighting together.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: That was really, really powerful, but then the whole, like, I’m having a giant temper tantrum at Luke at the end? Like, he, anything that he had built, he lost with me when he completely lost his shit –

Amanda: And it’s –

Sarah: – and I was like, you are just a giant, whinge-y, petulant fanboy.

Amanda: It’s funny that you bring that up!

Sarah: You are the, you are the, you are the fandom that is wrong with Star Wars.

Amanda: Well, it’s funny that you bring that up, because looking back on all these pairings, a lot of my heroes are emotionally stunted –

Sarah: Hmmm!

Amanda: – and not very, like, mature. Like with Jareth in the Labyrinth, he is so used to, like, getting whatever he wants –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – and he’s like, I don’t understand why you just won’t do what I say –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – whereas all of the heroines that I pick are like, that’s not how things work, dude. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: So it’s interesting that you mention that. I, it’s something that hadn’t occurred to me before, that a lot of my pairings kind of have heroines that can help the hero in his emotional growth, if that’s something he’s willing to do.

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: Which is, which is also –

Sarah: That makes sense.

Amanda: – in real life, kind of a toxic thing in a relationship. You never want to have to, like –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: – help your partner grow in that aspect or, like, mother your partner? [Laughs] So obviously these pairings are not pairings –

Sarah: Real-life healthy.

Amanda: – model, like, a relationship after. But they’re nice like a, they’re nice fantasy pairings.

Sarah: It’s really interesting, because one of my catnips is a hero in a, in a romance who is already emotionally fluent.

Amanda: [Laughs] That’s never my catnip!

Sarah: Right? Like, you and I are on opposite sides of this. If this is a polarity, we are in, on separate continents, because I do not like, I do not like heroes – I consider them sort of like cousins to boner-led heroes? Like, a boner-led hero is, I have a boner and I don’t know what to do except put it in you, so –

Elyse: No.

Sarah: – obviously that’s the most important thing. With the, there’s also the, the boner-led hero who’s like, I have a boner and a feeling, and I don’t like that, and I don’t know what to do with this feeling, so I’m just going to focus on my boner, and that’s the kind of hero who’s like, I’ll just have sex with her and get her out of my system. Like, no. You’re not flushing the air conditioning system –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – in a, in a, in a car. It’s not how that works. You’re not changing the oil. Like, come on! So the idea that there’s this hero that is emotionally stunted that needs to, needs the heroine to ground him to goodness or level him up emotionally, I’m like, yeah, that’s not my thing. I see that thing, I understand that thing exists, and I’m glad it works for you. It’s so not my thing, so I find this so interesting.

Amanda: That’s probably why –

Sarah: Which is not to say there’s not room for your thing. There is so room for your thing –

Amanda: Yeah. That’s probably –

Sarah: – and it’s just not my thing.

Amanda: – that’s probably why Elyse and I could never find a villain –

Elyse: Right.

Amanda: – that you were interested in. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah! [Laughs] You tried for, like, two hours!

Elyse: We tried so hard.

Sarah: [Laughs more] I don’t know if I told you this, but I had Adam listen to that episode before it came out, and I was like, is this even logical or intelligible? And he was like, I have been laughing so hard at this episode, because it is hilarious, but when you were like, Bowser –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – he fell over!

Amanda: Bowser’s built.

Sarah: Bowser, by the way, does not do it for me.

Amanda: He’s a buff dude!

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, it still doesn’t do it for me.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So your OTPs are almost always rooted in a great deal of conflict –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – often from the hero being extremely frustrated with the heroine for not doing what he wants.

Amanda: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: Or for not being what he wants. Like, like, Draco was super into Hermione, and then that was in conflict with his super racist, elitist beliefs.

Amanda: Yeah, ‘cause she isn’t, like, a pedigreed, you know, witch or whatever. I don’t remember the exact terminology; sorry, Harry Potter lovers. Yeah, and I kind of like that, you know, my upbringing dictates that I shouldn’t be attracted to you, but I am very much attracted to you, and that makes me very angry.

Sarah: I can see that working. Yep, I can see that.

Elyse: So –

Sarah: All right, Elyse? Do you want to go, or do you want me to go, because mine are so boring, and I know yours are going to be so interesting?

Elyse: So I, I have kind of classified mine into two buckets? One is skinny, British, evil characters? I don’t know what the deal with that is. So, like, I think it started with Jareth from Labyrinth, for sure. I think that’s where it got started, and then it just, it kept going. So Tom Hiddleston as Loki, Benedict Cumberbatch as Sherlock – like, I, these guys are all assholes, and I’m just like, no, I think, I think you just need the love of a good woman. But, like, I get where Amanda’s coming from, because it’s not a relationship you actually want, but in fantasy land, it would be super convenient, right? Because, like, shit would just get done.

Sarah: How so?

Elyse: Like, I’m just thinking, like, if you were dating a British villain – and Sherlock’s kind of, I think, on the bubble; he’s a sociopath, but not evil – you would just be like, oh, I saw this really sad story about this person who abused a puppy, and then, like, he would die mysteriously, and the police would be like, we found dismembered parts all over the street, and we don’t know how that happened, and you’d be like, well, I know, but it’s okay.

Amanda: I feel like these dudes are very driven –

Elyse: Yeah!

Amanda: – even if the things that they’re driven to do aren’t the greatest.

Elyse: Right! Like, can you imagine if you could focus that energy, like, positively?

Amanda: On something good? [Laughs]

Elyse: Like, your bathroom remodel would be done in no time. It would be amazing.

Sarah: Right. So wait, what’s the opposite of chaotic evil?

Amanda: Lawful good?

Sarah: No, no, lawful, lawful evil. So they’re basically lawful evil, right? Am I getting that right?

Elyse: Right, there has – yes, ‘cause there has to be, there has to be a set of rules that they abide by, and I think that’s why we, when we talked about how I read, like, hitman romances and stuff like that, it works for me because it’s not like they’re indiscriminately killing. There are people that they kill that deserve to die in the context of the book, so that’s okay, but they have to have some worldbuilding rules that they follow by.

Amanda: So based on that description, Elyse –

Elyse: Yes, yes.

Amanda: – I’m going to, would you, would you be attracted to the Predator?

Elyse: What? [Laughs]

Amanda: Because –

Elyse: What?

Amanda: Because the Predator –

Sarah: What?

Amanda: – is kind of lawful evil in the sense that the Predators have this sort of set of scruples that, like, if you were a worthy competitor or you’re, like, a, a moral warrior, they will spare you. They don’t go indisc- – okay, first of all –

Elyse: No, no, I see where you’re going. It’s just, I can’t get past the toothy vagina mouth.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Elyse: Like, that’s too upsetting for me.

Amanda: I mean, kissing might be a struggle.

Elyse: Right.

Amanda: I just had, like, Predator on the brain because I’ve been debating with Eric for a while on Alien vs. Predator in terms of, like, the species as a whole. So I’ve spent way more time than I would like thinking about the Predator. [Laughs]

Elyse: No, no, we’re good. I mean, I’ll think about it. I, I feel like I’m going to have to think about –

Amanda: Yeah!

Elyse: – this for a while before I give you a definitive answer.

Amanda: Maybe there’s a Predator without the toothy vagina mouth.

Elyse: I think that’s just how they come, isn’t it?

Amanda: I don’t know! I mean, in the new movie there’s a, a female Predator, so –

Elyse: Ooh! I’m intrigued by that!

Amanda: – so I’m curious if, like, their facial features and their, like, you know, body types differ, or if they’re just, like, one cookie-cutter Predator, and that’s just what they all look like.

Elyse: Okay. So, skinny British villains, kind of my thing –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Elyse: – but then there was also the ships that came out of my growing up in the ‘90s, and I just want you guys to know that I spent an awful lot of time watching clips of La Femme Nikita today and reflecting on how hard I shipped that. So yeah.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Elyse: So that came out, I think, in ’97 and ran for three or four years?

Sarah: Yep.

Elyse: So first of all, the whole, the whole female –

Sarah: Yep.

Elyse: – spy/assassin thing, all of my catnip. And looking back, I shipped that so hard, and I was so attracted to the Michael character, and he literally did nothing. Like, I’m watching it now? He had no facial expressions, and he just whisper-talked the whole series. That’s all he did. But he had kind of like –

Sarah: That makes it easy for you to project onto him!

Elyse: Yeah!

Sarah: There’s not much there.

Elyse: Right! And he had kind of like luxurious, wavy hair and a French accent, so there we go. So that was a big one, and then also – [sighs] – it’s just painful – Mulder and Scully. That was a huge ship –

Amanda: Aw!

Elyse: – that Chris Carter fucking ruined, and then they rebooted the series, and he came out of the weeds, and he was like, I can make this worse for you, and everyone who shipped them in the ‘90s and was a fan was screaming at their television at the season finale of the most recent season, because fuck you, Chris Carter, fuck you.

Amanda: What happened? I don’t want to watch the season, but I –

Elyse: Okay.

Amanda: – I’m, I’m okay with being spoiled.

Sarah: I will mark this as a spoiler in the finished episode.

Amanda: Okay. I want to know.

Elyse: All right. So you know how – I don’t know if you know this – so in the, the first-run series, the original series, Mulder and Scully had a baby –

Sarah: Yes.

Elyse: – a son. Right, or at least you –

Sarah: William.

Elyse: – William – and they gave him up for adoption to protect him, right? So in the most recent series, they find him again, he’s a teenager now, and you find out that he’s not really their son, that the Smoking Man impregnated Scully with alien DNA when she was unconscious, so he’s basically a science rape baby between aliens, the Smoking Man, and Scully.

Amanda: Ughhh.

Sarah: Oh Jesus Christ!

Elyse: Like, the rage –

Amanda: I don’t like that.

Elyse: – [laughs] – rage on Twitter was just, like, vowel sounds and flame GIFs and yeah, so, like, thank you, Chris Carter, for being an absolute piece of shit, and then of course the most recent series, or season, ends with Scully being like, I know I’m amazing and I kick ass and I’ve saved the universe many times, but you know, I just feel really unfulfilled because I haven’t had a baby, and then I just like – or haven’t been a, really been a mother, so then I was just, like, throwing things at the TV.

Amanda: Meh.

Elyse: Yeah.

Sarah: Yep.

Elyse: Yeah.

Amanda: I can understand your anger. Like, I haven’t even –

Elyse: So much anger.

Amanda: – kept up with the series. I think I watched, like, the first few seasons, but that’s yucky.

Elyse: It was super yucky, and then my big one was Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I shipped both Buffy and Angel and then later –

Amanda: Do-, don’t get me started on – Sarah and I fucking talked about this stupid moment in Buffy where, like, she has to kill him to close the Hellmouth or whatever –

Elyse: Hellmouth, yeah! Well, of course –

Amanda: – and I was –

Elyse: How else do you close a Hellmouth, Amanda?

Amanda: I was fucking ruined. I was like, what. Is. This?

Elyse: Right.

Amanda: So –

Sarah: [Laughs] I love the idea that you went to your grandmother and you were like, Grandma, she killed the vampire!

Amanda: I was so upset, I was in tears, and my grandmother had no clue what the fuck I was talking about.

Elyse: Yeah! She had to stab him!

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: Yeah, she was like, what? But –

Elyse: Yeah. Yeah. So, but what it made me realize is that all of, like, my hardcore teenage ships were about two characters who kind of had to, they were thrown together, and they had to maintain the same secret, so, like, their, it was kind of them against the outside world in some ways, which I think appeals to me as a romance reader too, where it’s like, this is the only person who can really fully understand me because the situation I’m in is so unusual, and other people can’t know about it, right. Either I’m a, a spy or, you know, a vampire; I think aliens are real. It’s kind of like a workplace romance, if you think about it.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Elyse: Well, it was, it was for two of them, and I’m going to say it is for Buffy and Angel too, because her job was killing vampires.

Sarah: That makes sense! You know, those are, those are decent ships.

Elyse: Yeah, I –

Sarah: I feel like Amanda’s the most outlandish of the two of us, ‘cause mine are hella boring.

Elyse: But I will admit, okay, so, like, my, one of my favorite fanfics to read is the Marvel universe Darcy Lewis has sex with everybody? Have you guys discovered this?

Amanda: [Laughs] No, but I’m into it!

Sarah: Nooo, what?

Elyse: So the character of Darcy Lewis that is Kat Dennings’ character from the Thor movies where she tases him?

Sarah: Yeah!

Elyse: Right, and there’s just a ton of fanfic out there where, like, she’s just kicking it at Stark Tower with the Avengers and gets to sleep with everybody and generally speaking have a good time and sometimes tase people.

Amanda: Yeah! Can you, can you hook a girl up?

Elyse: Yeah!

Amanda: Send me some links please.

Elyse: [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, we might, we might need links with, for that? [Laughs]

Elyse: So, yeah, it’s just like, it’s like fun, sex-positive, I identify with that character a little bit. Yeah!

Sarah: Wow.

Elyse: There’s, there’s no relationship, there’s no drama. It’s just like, you know, a fanfic where Captain America’s like, can you do me a solid and help me get rid of this virginity thing, and she’s like, sure!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Elyse: And then they eat ice cream afterwards.

Sarah: Okay, that’s awesome. Elyse, are you going to watch the new Chilling Adventures of Sabrina?

Elyse: I don’t know. I’m kind of torn.

Amanda: I’m going to do it!

Sarah: This looks like entirely your catnip, Amanda.

Amanda: I’m going to do it. I’m excited for it.

Sarah: Like, I want to watch it; I would love to watch it; there is no way this can enter my brain.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, this is the kind of show that I will watch in GIF sets, because they will pull out the romance, and that’s really the only part I’m interested in, and much like I think that Watchmen is a very loving sitcom-y romance between Mr. Darcy and this guy in a track suit – like, that’s, that’s the story that I know – this is going to pull out all of the really powerful moments, and then they’re going to pull out the romantic moments, and they’re going to leave all the, the blood and gore and the jump scares and the creepy parts, they’re going to leave that out, and I’ll be very safe. [Laughs]

Elyse: I forgot a ship!

Sarah: Oh, well, give me the ship, yo!

Elyse: I’m sorry! So –

Sarah: It’s okay!

Elyse: Ooh, I sounded, I sounded super Canadian there.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Elyse: So this would be, like, my most recent adult ship? I fell down The Mentalist rabbit hole super hard. So it was a CBS TV series about a guy who was basically, like, a con artist and pretended to be psychic, and he goes on a talk show –

Amanda: Does the main guy look like Jamie Oliver? Is that what I’m thinking of?

Sarah and Elyse: Yeah.

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elyse: And he goes on a TV show and he’s like, you know, I’m psychic, and I’m going to help the police catch this serial killer, and he pisses off the serial killer, and the serial killer kills his wife and kid, and so years – he kind of like falls, you know, into despair, but then this police detective, Teresa Lisbon, kind of picks him up and brushes him off, and he’s helping her hunt the killer, and so over years and years, the two of them become partners and become closer, and so that is, again, all of my catnip. It’s got that suspense element that I love.

Sarah: Yeah, but does he actually sufficiently deal, process his grief?

Elyse: I think towards the end of – they – so it had a disappointing ending, I think, because all of the actors wanted off the show, and it was renewed for a couple of seasons where you can tell, like, nobody really wanted to be there anymore.

Sarah: Oh, that’s the worst.

Elyse: Yeah.

Amanda: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I remember reading that the, that the two main characters did not get along very much.

Elyse: The, the actor and the actress? No, they –

Sarah: Yeah. No, maybe I’m thinking of a different show.

Elyse: Yeah.

Sarah: I’m thinking of a different show. My, my bad.

Elyse: I kno on The X-Files they didn’t for a long time.

Sarah: They get along great now. The two of them are adorable together!

Elyse: I know, but I think they –

Sarah: They’re, like, old and cuddly.

Elyse: Yeah, I think for a long time they hated each other. You’re thinking –

Sarah: Yeah.

Elyse: – I bet you’re thinking of Castle.

Sarah: Yes!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: That is exactly what I was thinking, so thank you.

Elyse: Supposedly, they really hated each other.

Sarah: Yeah, that’s, it’s really interesting when two people who don’t get along have outstanding chemistry?

Elyse: I kind of –

Sarah: And then you find out that they actually hate each other, and you’re like, oh!

Elyse: I just get a super dickish vibe from Nathan Fillion.

Sarah: Really!

Elyse: Don’t you?

Amanda: I get that now.

Sarah: He’s so, he’s so beloved!

Elyse: I just – right, but I feel like it’s superficial. Like, he knows what he’s doing, and it’s kind of manipulative. It’s not genuine.

Sarah: I get that vibe from Jeremy Renner.

Amanda: Ohhh.

Elyse: Oh, I think he’s just straight up a dick.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, I think he’s a, he’s a dick with, with excess charm that he knows how to deploy.

Elyse: Right. Really, I think Chris Pine and Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth are the only male celebrities at this point that I don’t, I’m not suspect of.

Sarah: I can understand that.

Amanda: I’m not suspect of Tom Hardy. He’s beautiful.

Elyse: His love for dogs is pretty heartwarming.

Amanda: It is.

Elyse: But, like, I can watch the video of Chris Hemsworth making his daughter a birthday cake like eight thousand times in a row.

Sarah: All right, you want to hear my boring-ass ships?

Elyse and Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: Okay. Amanda and I already went over this one, but the foundational ship to my romance reading is Catherine and Vincent from the original Beauty and the Beast.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: However, she doesn’t die; they live very happily right now.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: They have a great little arrangement. You know, they live on the, on the edge of the park. They see each other all the time. He can come up whenever he wants; they’ve got a good disguise going on. They live – they’re perfectly happy.

Elyse: So they’re not living with the sewer people anymore?

Sarah: You mean Ren Faire in the sewer?

Elyse: Yes.

Amanda: [Laughs] Sewer people!

Sarah: [Laughs] There’s a system of tunnels, and we live down here dressed like we go to Ren Faire!

Elyse: It all makes sense, okay?

Sarah: I know! I love it so much! [Laughs]

Elyse: Didn’t she, like, wait on her balcony in very flow-y nightgowns for him?

Sarah: Oh, all the time.

Elyse: Yeah, like you do.

Sarah: All the time. Yeah, I mean, who doesn’t stand on a balcony I don’t know how many stories up in the air, waiting for your very large, Ren-Faire-dressed, lion boyfriend to climb the outside? Like, no one noticed him climbing the outside; no one noticed her climbing the outside with her body. Like, what?!

Elyse: [Laughs] I just, I feel like a lot of our ships that were based on the fact that we all saw Beauty and the Beast kind of in the same age range, the Disney version.

Amanda: Yeah.

Elyse: It informed a lot.

Sarah: Oh yeah, and I bet when we air this episode and, you know, and I’m like, all right, tell me who your ships are, there’s going to be very clear generational lines to those ships.

Elyse: Oh yeah.

Sarah: And what’s so fascinating is that, you know, there’s so much reboot going on in media right now, because people who are around my age or a little younger are the ones now getting into positions where they’re in charge of things, and so everything that is nostalgia-steeped gets rebooted but in a different way or in the same way, and I’m like, please don’t touch my original ships! I’d be really sad! [Laughs] Please don’t!

Elyse: Oh –

Sarah: So Catherine and Vincent worked for me because he was emotionally fluent and she was really spoiled and not very nuanced at all, and it’s, it’s interesting: when, when I rewatched the pilot, she’s really shallow, and she basically phones it in at work, and everyone she works with at her corporate law office is very frustrated with her. She shows up at, like, noon and leaves at 1:30, and everyone’s like, we’ve been waiting for you! And she’s like, yeah, whatever, doesn’t matter. I’m the boss’s daughter! She’s horrible! But then she gets super sensitive in a hurry, and I realized that I am the opposite of you, Amanda. I like an emotionally fluent hero and a heroine who has emotional improvement or leveling-up to do.

Amanda: Oh!

Sarah: Yeah. Like, I am the opposite. I find it so interesting. So obviously Catherine and Vincent are my super-foundational One True Pair. Like, I adore them. The other one I have actually combines two ships that are usually in conflict in Tumblr Land? So, did you guys see Avatar: The Last Airbender?

Amanda: No!

Elyse: The cartoon?

Sarah: Yeah!

Elyse: I think I’ve seen episodes of it. I haven’t watched it, like, all of it.

Amanda: I know the characters, but I’ve never watched it.

Sarah: Okay. It is really, really good, and I sat and watched it several nights in a row with my family. We all adored it. So in the original Avatar group, there’s Katara, who is a female waterbender, and Aang, who’s the Avatar. The foundation of the show is that there are four main elements that you can bend or control, and there’s earth, water, fire, and air, and the Avatar is the one who keeps balance between the four kingdoms by being able to bend all of them. You come to find out that after Aang flew, froze himself and his air bison Appa in a giant block of ice, the Fire Nation committed genocide against the Air nation and wiped them all out, so he’s literally the last airbender, hence the name of the show, Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Amanda: Oh!

Sarah: Which my family, of course, in great maturity, called Avatar: The Last Air Biscuit. But we’re giant dorks. So Katara and her brother Sokka are fishing in, near their, where they live in the southern Water Tribe, and they find this iceberg, and they realize someone’s in it, and she breaks Aang out of the iceberg, figures out pretty quickly that he’s the Avatar, and then the Fire Nation realizes that he’s returned after a hundred years, and they’re ready to kill him. There’s all these other characters that are going to converge; it’s super cool. But there’s also another character who is the disgraced child of the Fire Lord, and that would be Zuko. You might have seen him in fandom pictures; he’s the one where he has this big red burn scar that goes from his nose over his eye?

Amanda: Yes. I like that.

Elyse: Okay, yep.

Amanda: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: Okay, so Amanda, Zuko and Katara would be your catnip. That’s why you should watch the show, so you can watch for what is called Zukara.

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: Okay, so in the show, Zuko and Katara have very many parallels: they both have, their mothers have both been killed or missing; their fathers are absent or terrible; they are both terribly powerful and terribly alone. There’s all these little major and minor parallels, and they hate each other. She especially hates him, but she’s also a healer and is also one of the few characters who is spontaneously kind to Zuko, which of course, being emotionally stunted, he has no idea how to deal with. So Zuko has been told by his father, who burned him and cast him out of the Fire Nation and disowned him as the Crown Prince, the only way to redeem you back into the family is for you to find the Avatar and kill him. Well, you know, the Avatar’s been missing for a hundred years, so fat chance. Of course, he does find the Avatar but then ends up joining the Avatar’s gang because that’s, this is a children’s show, and that’s how that works.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Katara is the last person to trust Zuko once he finally joins the, the gang, and their tension is so good. But of course Aang and Katara end up at the end, because that’s kind of the buildup through the whole series, and I’m fine with that. I am totally fine with canon shipping; like, I am all about it. If I had a shipping company, it would be called Canon Shipping. So I’m fine with Katara and Aang, but here’s what happens – this is a bit of a spoiler; actually, all of this is spoiler, so fuck it – because Aang froze himself for a hundred years, he dies relatively young at age sixty-six, and then his Avatar spirit is reincarnated into Korra, who is the heroine of the next show. Ultimately, Korra is born into the waterbending tribe and ends up being trained by Katara, because Katara is the most advanced waterbender, so Katara ends up training the reincarnated spirit of her late husband. She lives to be very, very old, and I like to think that after Aang died and after Katara had time to sort of adjust to being a widow, that she and Zuko got together, because they had a lot of shared history, and they had a terrific attraction, and they would have had a lot of things to work out, so I think that both Katara and Aang and then later Katara and Zuko both happened. Which is totally cheating in the shipping world be-, of, of the show and the Avatar fandom, because most people are like, no, you’re either one or the other. I’m like, how about both, because people can love more than one person in their lifetime!

Elyse: Yeah, I support this. I think that, I think that’s healthy!

Sarah: So I ship Katara and Zuko once Aang has died.

Elyse: So I have to ask, though, did either of you watch Sailor Moon as a kid?

Amanda: Uh, yeah!

Elyse: ‘Cause I’m remem- –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Elyse: I’m remembering, I’m remembering that being kind of a formative ship too. Although, as an adult looking back, I’m confused by it. Like, why –

Sarah: How so?

Elyse: Why are you a vigilante in a tuxedo?

Sarah: Why not?

Amanda: Tuxedo Mask!

Elyse: [Laughs] And then didn’t he become, like –

Amanda: Sorry. [Laughs]

Elyse: – he, he had, like, an Aladdin-ish outfit too, right? It was, like, super cultural misappropriation, he was, like, an Arabian Knight for a while?

Amanda: Maybe?

Sarah: What?

Amanda: I don’t remember!

Elyse: Am I the only one who remembers this?

Amanda: I mean, I like the villain Prince Diamond over Tuxedo Mask, obviously.

Elyse: Obviously!

Amanda: But let me Google. Let’s see; I don’t remember. Tuxedo – yes.

Elyse: I think it was like the Moonlight Knight or something. Hang on. Let me find the link.

Amanda: Oh, I’m Googling. Ooh, yeah. Yeah, you’re right.

[Laughter]

Amanda: Yes.

Elyse: Yeah.

Amanda: It’s weird that it’s Moonlight Knight, but he’s dressed not like a knight.

Elyse: Knight, yeah, it’s kind of a, a, a sheik sort of –

Amanda: Yeah.

Elyse: – thing. It’s not, it’s not good. It’s not good.

Amanda: It is not good.

Elyse: But I remember –

Amanda: No good.

Elyse: – in middle school waking up super early to watch that because it was on at, like, 4 a.m.

Amanda: So it was, because – not necessarily at 4 a.m., but my mom, when we lived in south Florida, she would have to, like, drive down to Miami, so I would have to go to before care and after care for school. So –

Sarah: Right, you told me about that.

Amanda: Yeah, so I would, I would get to elementary school at, like, 6:30 in the morning and sit in the cafeteria with a bunch of other kids, and we would watch, like, Sailor Moon and Pokémon and, like, all the other, like, early program cartoons and then, like, after school I would just hang out until, like, six o’clock at night, until my mom picked me up!

Sarah: Have you guys watched The Dragon Prince on Netflix?

Elyse: No.

Amanda: I have not!

Sarah: It is – I have not gotten far enough into it to verify the presence of any romances, but it is really good. It’s from the same people who did Avatar, and it is gorgeous, and there is so much interesting character development and representation. There’s a deaf general who communicates in animated sign language?

Amanda: Ooh!

Sarah: It’s super cool. You guys would really like it, and it’s only nine half-hour episodes: totally manageable.

Elyse: Hmm!

Sarah: I bet Rich would love it. Like, it is –

Elyse: I, oh, he, like, hardcore yes, for sure.

Sarah: Oh, he is, he’s going to be so, if he has not watched this, park his prednisone ass in front of the Netflix and let him watch it, ‘cause he will be so happy.

Elyse: I’m texting him right now, ‘cause he’s downstairs.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Elyse: Here’s a link to The Dragon Prince on Netflix.

Sarah: And he’s like, I’ve already watched it twice! [Laughs] So do you have any other ships or book recommendations that you want to make?

Amanda: Mmm. I’m still going through that League series; I don’t know why.

Sarah: Why? Seriously, dude!

Amanda: I’m on the, I’m on the fifth book now. The one before it was better! Less misogyny, less sexual violence, more scene-setting and worldbuilding, so it’s making me slightly hopeful. But I wanted something spooky – both Elyse and I are in a spooky mood – so I picked up –

Elyse: Yes!

Amanda: – The Dry by Jane Harper, which Elyse reviewed, I believe, on the site, and it’s, like, an Australian thriller. I’m enjoying it so far, but in almost –

Elyse: I like that you, I like that you messaged me and you’re like, I like that every scene has a poisonous spider in the background!

[Laughter]

Amanda: I know! He casually mentions, like, there’s a redback in a web hovering above the guy’s face, and I let him know that it’s there, or he’s, like, in a hotel room and he’s like, there’s a giant huntsman spider on the wall, and I’m like, Jesus Christ! This is not endearing me to go visit Australia whatsoever. [Laughs]

Elyse: Well, Australia has some pretty, like – yeah, Australia will fuck your shit up.

Sarah: Yeah.

Elyse: Right, like, if it’s poisonous and terrifying –

Sarah: Yeah, the entire actual country of Australia is trying to kill you.

Amanda: So every scene has, like –

Elyse: Right.

Amanda: – a spot that poisonous bug sort of – [laughs] – sort of deal to it. But I’m enjoying it a lot.

Elyse: I’ve picked up a bunch of spooky stuff too, because this is my favorite time of year, and Halloween is my favorite holiday, and I love spooky shit. So last night at, like, three in the morning, I started The Silent Companions by Laura Purcell.

Amanda: With the creepy dolls?

Elyse: Which is a very – yeah, the creepy doll book. It’s, like, very Gothic. It’s also pretty short; it’s, well, I guess it’s three hundred pages – the book looks thinner than that – so I think I’m probably going to finish that today. And then I picked up The Little Stranger by Sarah Waters, which is going to be a movie pretty soon, I think. And then I have Melmoth by, is it Sarah Perry? She wrote The Essex Serpent.

Amanda: Yeah, I have that one. I did not like The Essex Serpent, so, because –

Elyse: This one involves a supernatural creature called Melmoth the Watcher.

Amanda: Well, like, the, The Essex Serpent was supposed to have, like, a cryptid thing going on too, but I feel like it focused more on, like, interpersonal dynamics than the actual, like, creepy monster, which is what I wanted, so I’m hoping this one is different, but who knows?

Elyse: Oh, I have The Witch of Willow Hall, too –

Sarah: I have that one.

Elyse: – in my creepy shit, so I’m looking forward to that. That was really cool; they sent it, they sent the ARCs out in, like, a sheer black bag to add to the creepy ambiance.

Sarah: So I have The Witch of Willow Hall on my list. There’s like five books that come out on October 2nd!

Elyse: I know!

Sarah: I mean, come on!

Elyse: I know.

Sarah: The Hollow of Fear by Sherry Thomas, the third Charlotte Holmes, that comes out on October 2nd. Kill the Queen comes out on October 2nd from Jennifer Estep.

Elyse: Yep, I read that one.

Sarah: Yeah, you liked that one!

Elyse: I did! It does have a romance arc in it, but it’s clear that it’s going to progress into the other books, so if you’re looking for –

Sarah: Right.

Elyse: – like, an open and shut romance, it’s not, you’re not going to get it there. I want to read the Bellewether by Susanna Kearsley, too. I have it, and I haven’t started it.

Sarah: I have heard that it is really good.

[music]

Sarah: All right, I’m guessing you have comments and you want to tell us about your OTPs. Believe me, we desperately want to hear about it, so get ready! Here’s all the ways to contact us: you can email us at [email protected], or you can call us and leave a message at 201-371-3272. That is 201-371-3272. Don’t forget to give us your name so we can add you to a future episode. I know that many of you would like to tell us about your OTPs because, well, this is a very fun subject for romance readers, as you can tell!

I hope you enjoyed this episode. We had a really good time, and we will definitely be doing a follow-up if you’d like to tell us who you happen to ship.

This podcast episode and the podcast transcript were brought to you by Cut and Run by Mary Burton, on sale now from Montlake Romance. Trauma victims are not new to medical examiner Faith McIntyre, but this one is different. The unconscious woman clinging to life after a hit and run is FBI agent Macy Crow. What the woman from Quantico was doing in a dark alley after midnight is just one mystery. The other is more unsettling: Macy is Faith’s mirror image—the twin sister she didn’t know she had. Faith knew she was adopted, but now she’s finding that her childhood concealed other secrets. Following the trail of clues Macy left behind, Faith and Texas Ranger Mitchell Hayden make a shocking discovery on an isolated country ranch. As the missing pieces of Faith’s and Macy’s dark lives snap into place, Faith is becoming more terrified by what she sees—and by what she must do to save her sister and herself from the past. Cut and Run by Mary Burton is available now from Montlake Romance.

Thank you to everyone who has supported the podcast Patreon. You make a deeply appreciated difference. You help me keep the show going, and you help me make sure that every episode is transcribed and accessible to everyone. If you would like to have a look, I would love to have you: patreon.com/SmartBitches.

And if you have left a review or told a friend or if you are walking the dog, dyeing wool, cleaning the house, cooking, cleaning, or out on the elliptical or the treadmill or that other weird machine with the poles that goes back and forth, kind of like a skiing thing, maybe? Maybe you have one of those? Maybe you’re on it right now. Either way, thank you for bringing me with you. You’ve totally got this; keep going. Don’t give up!

The music you are listening to was provided by Sassy Outwater. This is the Peatbog Faeries, ‘cause I love them so much; they make great music for the intro and outro. This is “The Chatham Lassies” from their album Blackhouse, and I will have links to the album and the song in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

You know what else will be in the show notes? Links to a whole bunch of things: a ton of movies, video games, books, TV shows, and some links to some of the things we talked about in this episode, including Elyse’s and my discussion of the boner-led hero, which I really, really enjoyed. Also, Darcy Lewis fanfic, if you wish to read that, because, well, apparently that was a very popular discussion between Elyse and Amanda.

Coming up on Smart Bitches this week: if you enjoyed Fall Week, we have more festive reading fun ahead! This weekend we have another edition of Kickass Women in History from Carrie, plus reviews of books featuring kickass women in many eras. We have a collection of reviews of tarot card decks, a new edition of Soggy Bottoms, plus Lit Wicks, Help a Bitch Out, book reviews, and of course, Books on Sale. I hope you will come by and hang out with us.

And now it is time for the terrible joke, my favorite part of the outro. I know you all listen to the end because they are so bad, and this is so bad. [Laughs] All right. [Clears throat] It’s now time for my professional podcasting voice.

How does the moon cut his hair?

Give up? How does the moon cut his hair?

‘E clips it!

[Laughs] Thank you to zyzzyva42, I think? That book made me totally laugh. Now I’m worried I’ve said it before. Have I used this before? Welcome to my complete absence of memory. Wow. Maybe I did, maybe I didn’t. If I did, I hope you enjoyed it a second time, and if I didn’t, I’m having a little bit of weird déjà vu; I’m sure it’ll pass.

On behalf of Amanda and Elyse and all of our pets and Maxwell the stuffed otter, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend, and we will see you back here next week!

[dreamy music]