263. Behind the Scenes with Clothing, Creativity, and Cover Art: An Interview with Alyssa Cole

 

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 263 – wow! – of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I am Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and this is a podcast that’s all about romance, the women who read it and write it, and all of the other awesome things that surround that genre.

This week I have an interview that I recorded at RWA in July with Alyssa Cole, and we are going to talk about clothing. But don’t worry; we’re going to start with books and history. We start by talking about her upcoming publications, and there are several, and we talk about the pockets of resistance that, among people in the South during the Civil War who fought against the Confederacy. Some of the research on that topic appears in her upcoming book, A Hope Divided. Then we focus on her contemporary spring release from Avon, A Princess in Theory, which combines potential spam email, a young woman studying epidemiology, and a royal dude who comes to the US to do some Official Prince-ing – that’s capital O Official, capital P Prince-ing.

Now, here’s where we get to the clothing: the cover for this book is stunning, and we take a really interesting deep dive into the development of that image. We also talk about independent clothing designers, entrepreneurs in fashion design and development, and the history and sociology of clothing. We also talk about Adorned by Nicole, who made the dress for A Princess in Theory’s cover and has made several of Alyssa’s conference clothing items as well. Plus, plus, plus, plus, we have a coupon from Adorned by Nicole! Thank you, Nicole! You can get 10% off an item from AdornedbyNicole on Etsy with the code ALYSSA10. I will have links to all of this information in the podcast entry at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast!

I’m seriously so excited to bring you this episode. I’ve been really, really enjoying editing it.

Now, this episode is brought to you by Pretend You’re Safe by Alexandra Ivy and by Kensington Books. Thank you, Kensington, for sponsoring this month’s podcasts! I will tell you the description that I am about to read gave me the creepies – not that this is a difficult thing to do to me – and so if you are looking for creepy, chilly books because it’s becoming darker earlier if you’re in the northern hemisphere and we’re approaching fall, this will probably be a book. This is entirely Elyse catnip, this book. Are you ready? First came the floods, then the bodies, and then the lockets. Lockets filled with bloodstained hair. See? Told you: creepy. Jaci Patterson escaped a serial killer as a young girl, and now that same serial killer, or a copycat, is targeting her once again, taunting her, stalking her, and leaving her more perverted gifts. As a teen, she could not convince the cops that what was happening to her was anything but a prank. Now that literal bodies have begun to surface, will the police finally believe her and take up the case? Demonstrating her strong plotting ability, Pretend You’re Safe by New York Times bestselling author Alexandra Ivy is a tale full of thrilling suspense and unforgettable twists, a tale so chilling it will have readers looking over their shoulders, because no one in this world is safe. For more information, visit kensingtonbooks.com, or you can have a look at the podcast entry, because I will have all of the information about this book, and all the books that we mention during the interview as well.

Now, I also have compliments, so if you were creeped out, now it’s the good part! Yay!

First, compliments to Vickie R.: Everyone who knows you knows that you make awesome things, and more importantly, you make things awesome.

And to Skye K. – I love your name, by the way; that’s a beautiful name – You are the human personification of the kind of laughter that makes your eyes water and the kind of hugs that last for years.

And if you are thinking, gee, I would like a compliment like that, you can totally have one! Go to patreon.com/SmartBitches, and you can join the most wonderful human beings who are helping support the podcast with pledges of as little as one dollar a month. All of them make an enormous, positive, much appreciated difference. Plus, I have started transcribing – or, well, commissioning garlicknitter [waves] to transcribe, to be more accurate – the transcripts for early episodes. I think we’ve gotten as far as episode 9, so you know I’m deep in the archives, and I have about seventy that do not have transcripts to go with them. Now that we have hit my Patreon goal for that project – thank you, thank you, thank you – I am now commissioning transcripts so that all of the older episodes will have a written account as well as an audio file, which I’m very, very dedicated to for a whole lot of reasons, not least of which is accessibility and making sure that people who don’t want to listen can read and people who want to read don’t have to listen. Yay!

The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. I’ll have information at the end of the podcast, and you can find us on iTunes at iTunes.com/DBSA.

But now, without any further delay, on with the interview with Alyssa Cole.

[music]

Sarah: You’re Alyssa Cole.

Alyssa Cole: I am.

Sarah: And you are here with one ARC, one book coming out in February, one book recently out, for two publishers –

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: – so we’re here to talk about clothing.

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: This makes perfect sense, right?

Alyssa: Yeah, of course.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: Totally.

Sarah: Why not?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Before we get to the clothes, which is the cool part – ‘cause we are going to talk about your books – do you want to talk about what you have coming up in the next year? ‘Cause you have so many cool things coming up.

Alyssa: Okay.

Sarah: Let’s start the interview by talking about you. [Laughs]

Alyssa: I guess we can do that. [Laughs]

Sarah: You know, no pressure.

Alyssa: Let’s see, what do I have coming up in the next year? So, in October, coming out on October 19th, and actually kind of related to clothing, because one of the heroines is a seamstress and a dressmaker –

Sarah: Perfect!

Alyssa: – my novella in Hamilton’s Battalion, which is an anthology I’m doing with Courtney Milan and Rose Lerner, whose stories are freaking amazing and, like, I’m not going to get into it right now.

Sarah: You can get into it as much as you want.

Alyssa: I’m guess I’m just like, try, I, I shouldn’t be coy, but their stories are amazing, and this, this anthology is basically about, it’s tangentially related to Hamilton. Anyone who knows us knows that we freaking love Hamilton.

Sarah: You, you seem in favor of it, yes.

Alyssa: Yes. So, it is basically, you know, Hamilton had his battalion at the Battle of Yorktown, and it’s, deal, it follows people who were in Hamilton’s battalion. After, if you have listened to the song or actually read the history book, you know that Eliza, his wife Eliza Hamilton was collecting all of the stories about him after he died, and she would have people who served under him or people who worked with him come in, so basically the frame story is people from the battalion basically telling a little bit about their time with the battalion – well, and also their love stories that are tied to that. Courtney Milan’s story is a male/male romance about – and it’s kind of a road-trip romance – about, you know, after the Battle of Yorktown. Rose Lerner’s story is in a trope that I love and a lot of people love: a woman pretending, posing as a male soldier in order to fight, and it has, like, a really awesome twist, and it’s super patriotic, and the heroine is Jewish, and it’s about patriotism and religion and love for your country and your people, and I’m getting all emotional thinking about it. But – [laughs] – that’s it.

Sarah: I’m just sitting here thinking, well, that’s all my catnip –

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: And when does this come out? Like, tomorrow? Couple hours?

Alyssa: It comes out October 19th. You know –

Sarah: October 19th.

Alyssa: – around the anniversary of the Battle of Yorktown.

Sarah: I’m going to have to set up a reminder to remind me of that.

Alyssa: We will, you know, have ARCs and stuff for that. And my story is a female/female, and it is featuring one of Eliza’s maids who is helping her with the collection of these stories and the interviews and who is kind of hiding herself away from the world – because, you know, It’s Quiet Uptown – and she is dealing with her own anxiety and her own sense of, she doesn’t believe in love anymore –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and then a woman shows up – it’s actually tied to my story Be Not Afraid; the woman who shows up is Elijah Sutton’s granddaughter.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: Elijah was in Hamilton’s battalion after Be Not Afraid ends, and so she’s telling her grandfather’s story to Eliza Hamilton because he’s not feeling well, and then they kind of make this connection, and there’s a bit of, you know, learning to love again and learning to feel, feel beauty and to come back from grief and from loss and from, to allow yourself to feel beauty in the world when you have told yourself that you shouldn’t anymore. Oh, yeah, that was, like, a really long description. [Laughs]

Sarah: The information the better, always.

Alyssa: Sorry.

Sarah: But she’s a seamstress.

Alyssa: Oh, so, Elijah’s granddaughter is a dress-, she owns a dress shop –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and, you know, she’s having, she’s a businesswoman. She, she makes dresses, and I’m sure that was, like, in the back of my mind tied to my interest, my current interest in, like, you know, making clothing and things like that. Not me; other people making clothing.

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: So there’s that in October. And November 28th, I believe, A Hope Divided, which is the second book in the Loyal League series, comes out with, from Kensington, and that is, it follows Malcolm’s brother, Ewan McCall, and the heroine’s name is Marlie, and she is – so, basically, it’s kind of like Belle meets Free State of Jones. It – just to give a basic idea; it’s not that exact thing – but it’s basically a woman who was, her mother was a slave. She was born free; her mother was freed. She never knew her father. She’s biracial, and as, when she became a teenager, her father’s family came to claim her and kind of give her a better life than she was having. Like, she was having a, you know, she was perfectly happy with her mother, but her mother wanted her to have more opportunity than she would have with her. And the hero is Ewan McCall, who is Malcolm McCall, the hero of An Extraordinary Union, it’s his brother. Whereas Malcolm is very charming and outgoing, Ewan is kind of withdrawn and more, he’s very into, like, Greek philosophy and the idea of justice and what is right and what is wrong, and he’s also a counterintelligence agent who kind of had to do some not-great things to get information for the Union, and he is in prison when they meet. She is going to the prison to, like, provide some, you know, medicine. And Marlie, her mother is, like, a conjure woman, a roots woman, who worked, who made medicine and stuff for slaves on surrounding plantations, and so, but she’s, kind of veered more towards science and not the spirituality aspect of that, so part of the book is her coming to terms with science and spirituality versus Ewan’s logic and how, the idea of how logic can be used to justify anything, and also their background story is that they are in the Piedmont area of North Carolina, where there was a lot of – you know, we’re always told that there was, like, the North and the South, and that was it, but within the South itself, there was, there were actually, like, large pockets of resistance to the Confederacy, and, like, there were various reasons for that resistance. Sometimes it was people who were against slavery. Sometimes it was people who were totally fine with slavery but who were like, hey, I still want to be part of the Union; I don’t want our country to break up. There were people who were like, why do I have to fight just because I’m poor, but people who own slaves can pay someone else to go in their stead; they can evade the draft. And then, of course, there were the Quakers, who were pacifists and who were against slavery and who were against fighting, and then there were issues with, like, you know, you had to register, basically, if you were a Quaker, and sometimes people didn’t register, and they would be, try to force – so there were people, there was basically guerrilla warfare happening within the Confederacy itself from Southerner, Southern people against the Confederacy, and then there were also Unionists who were living in the Confederacy, just like there were Secessionists who were in the North and trying to influence things from the North. So it’s kind of, this book, taking a look at the idea of, like, the story, there was always, like, you know, there was brother versus brother, one was Union, one was Confederate. There was also neighbor versus neighbor who, they were not necessarily Union or Confederate; they were fighting for, to maintain their way of life or because they didn’t believe in slavery, and it wasn’t just such a simple thing as, like, well, I’m just going to go North and fight for the Union. Some people were fighting within their neighborhoods and within the, the wooded areas and fighting Confederate militias because they refused to leave the, the area around their home.

Sarah: Or they couldn’t leave the area around home.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s similar to looking at North Carolina –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – who passed anti-trans legislation.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: The –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – the idea that, oh, well, you should just leave.

Alyssa: Yeah, exactly!

Sarah: You, you can’t just pick up and go! It’s actually really difficult.

Alyssa: Yeah, you have your family; you have your life and –

Sarah: And your, your friends?

Alyssa: – and also just the principle of, like, why should I have to leave the place that I love because other people are assholes, basically? [Laughs]

Sarah: Y’all are fucking up the place I can either leave –

Alyssa: Exactly.

Sarah: – and give up, or I can stay and be like, no.

Alyssa: Exactly –

Sarah: No.

Alyssa: – and –

Sarah: Also, no.

Alyssa: – the idea of, like – and I think this is partially what leads to this problem now of, like, red state, blue state when, you know, when a person lives there like Bree Bridges and, like, other people and, like, Vanessa North and people like that. A lot of romance writers have been speaking about this recently, because it’s kind of, like, oh, why don’t we just annex this state, or why don’t we just great rid of this state, and then everything would be fine, and it’s like, you know, there are plenty of people who are living in these states –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – who are fighting the good fight in these states, who need support, who live in these states, and, like, I wasn’t thinking about this when I was writing it, really. I wasn’t consciously thinking of it, but it very, there are very strong parallels of the, to the idea that, of, like, just writing off a place as, like, well, no one there wants to do the right thing, or no one there disagrees with what is happening, when, when in reality, in every place there is a mixture of people believing in, who have various reasons for believing in various things and who are sometimes fighting against the, like, whatever majority has power –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – but no one really talks about them or they kind of get written off because it’s easier to flatten the story to good and bad –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – North and South, red and blue, when, you know, everything is –

Sarah: It’s easy to say that the division is final.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: We’ve already done this before.

Alyssa: And it, and it makes it easier, it makes it easier to, like, write people off in the end.

Sarah: Yep. I know many – ‘cause I went to college in South Carolina – I know many democrats in South Carolina –

Alyssa: Yeah!

Sarah: – and they talk of, they talk a lot about how it’s so alienating and so –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – it’s so, just, demoralizing every time, to lose every time, and they’re like, but we’re still here!

Alyssa: Yeah!

Sarah: Yep. So that’s A Hope Divided.

Alyssa: Okay, and then in February, A Princess in Theory, which is the first book in the Reluctant Royals series with Avon, and that –

Sarah: Congratulations, by the way.

Alyssa: Thank you!

Sarah: Yay!

Alyssa: So, that series – and this is my, like, fun, contemporary romance, romantic comedy type series, a.k.a., like, my, I need to write something so I don’t go crazy series, and, like, you know, contemporary, so, like, that was another reason I was really mad at politics. I was like, I’m just going to write some fun, happy stuff, and then it was like, you know, even more terrible things started happening in contemporary life, which, you know, I do try to address some aspects of things going on, but that’s not the focus. The focus –

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: – is, like, kind of like rom-com and fun. It’s more fun and happy and lighter than – and also I didn’t have to do a lot of terrible, horrible research like I did for the Civil War books. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: There’s a lot of research, but just, like, not, you know, terrifying things. And so, in A Princess in Theory, the basic premise is there’s a young woman, a woman living in New York. She’s in grad school for public health, for epidemiology. She works in a laboratory as an assistant. She also works as a waitress. She’s juggling multiple jobs and school, and she grew up in foster care. She lives on her own, and she starts getting these spam emails saying, like, you are betrothed to the prince of this African nation that she’s never heard of, and she keeps writing it off as spam because she’s like, this is ridiculous and, you know, of course that’s not true, and – it is true! Yay!

Sarah: Surprise! Surprise!

[Laughter]

Alyssa: So then the prince shows up in New York to do some, you know, prince-ing. He’s going to the UN and –

Sarah: Do some prince-ing!

[Laughter]

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: I think that should be the hashtag to promote the series: #Prince-ing!

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: Prince-ing1, Prince-ing2 – although then Prince fans will be like –

Alyssa: I know!

Sarah: – what?!

Alyssa: He’s not doing, like, the purple prince-ing. He’s doing –

Sarah: But he could!

Alyssa: He could.

Sarah: He could, ‘cause purple is pretty associated with royalty. Yeah.

Alyssa: Yeah! This is very true. He’s there to do some business, to meet with some corporations and go to the UN and do those kinds of, like, you know, the not-fun aspects of being the, a part of the government, and he is kind of not really enjoying being a prince. He’s the sole heir to the throne; all of the responsibility of his, you know, the future of his people is on him, and –

Sarah: No pressure!

Alyssa: Yeah, exactly, no pressure. And he kind of is just tired of everyone expecting things from him. Even the things that he supposedly does for fun are things that are just expected of him because he’s a prince. And so he kind of, you know, he ends up finding this woman that he was betrothed to as a child in a religious ceremony and whose family ran away when she was young. They left the kingdom, and it was, like, a huge betrayal that was never forgiven in the kingdom, but his assistant tracks her down, and when he goes to meet her to demand to know, you know, what happened, she doesn’t recognize him. She doesn’t know who –

Sarah: She probably doesn’t remember.

Alyssa: She doesn’t remember him; she doesn’t know anything about him, and he’s like, hey, this is kind of awesome! Someone who doesn’t know I’m a prince and doesn’t defer to me and doesn’t act like I owe them some major thing. She’s like, she assumes he’s one of, her new co-worker at a restaurant, so she just wants basic things from him like, can you clear this table? Which he’s a prince; he can’t really do that.

[Laughter]

Sarah: #NotPrince-ing.

Alyssa: So it’s basically them getting to know each other. She thinks he’s someone else. He’s trying to figure out how to tell her, and then, of course, you know, the truth comes out, and then she has to deal with discovering her true background and –

Sarah: Oh, my God, this is all the catnip.

Alyssa: [Laughs] And –

Sarah: Secret royalty –

Alyssa: Secret royalty –

Sarah: – secret betrothal –

Alyssa: – secret betrothal, secret identity –

Sarah: – amnesia of a sort –

Alyssa: – amnesia. Also, fake engagement, because –

Sarah: – fake engagement –

Alyssa: – because then, basically there’s an epide-, there’s a medical, possibly, a possible epidemic in the kingdom, and he tells her to come back with him. She can do research for her thesis and just by not really pretending, ‘cause technically, she is engaged to him, so it’s not exactly a lie, so she goes back, and also to discover more about her family, her people, and where she came from, and, you know.

Sarah: It’s like Princess Diaries crossed with Coming to America.

Alyssa: Yeah, basically. With, with reverse Coming to America?

Sarah: Yeah, reverse. Like –

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: – leaving.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: GTFO America.

Alyssa: Coming, coming to America, then leaving America. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. And we’re out. Bye!

Alyssa: And –

Sarah: Is one of them a superhero with a really secret stash of incredibly strong metal?

Alyssa: No.

Sarah: So there’s no vibramium. Vibra-

Alyssa: There is no, there is no vibranium.

Sarah: Why can’t I say that word?

Alyssa: [Laughs] There is –

Sarah: Is there a word you can’t say? That’s my word.

Alyssa: Like, adam-, adamantium?

Sarah: Yeah! No, I can’t – mouth, mouth bad, no work.

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: Also, it’s Friday of RWA?

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: My feet don’t work either. [Laughs]

Alyssa: Yeah. We’re both barefoot right now.

Sarah: Yeah. Barefoot on a couch. I’m wearing yoga pants.

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: So, one of the things that you were telling me – we were texting randomly – you told me that (1) you have a wonderful Etsy store that you have bought clothing from –

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: – that is tailored for you, that is gorgeous, bright – they’re African-inspired fabrics?

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: And then the dress on the cover of this book was made by that same –

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: – designer.

Alyssa: So, yeah –

Sarah: Please tell me how this happened, because that is so cool.

Alyssa: So, the cover for A Princess in Theory, what had happened was – [laughs] – so, yes, I found this designer on Etsy because I, like, to give a long, to sum up a long story, I was, like, never a super fashionable person. I was a tomboy growing up. In college I was the friend that, like, my friends liked to give makeovers to. Like, hey, why don’t you take off those giant pants and that giant shirt and, like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alyssa: So it was like, you know, a ‘90s movies or early ‘00s movie, like, makeover, like, here is some makeup. Have you ever heard of Sephora?

Sarah: Alyssa Cole is all that!

[Laughs]

Alyssa: Basically, like wet n wild is cool, and you know what? I buy wet n wild now. I feel like I need to, if I could go back in time I’d be like, you know, Sephora’s okay, but wet n wild is also cool too.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: But, like, you know, so get going, teaching me about makeup and, you know, those kinds of things. So, and I, I do enjoy, like, dressing up. Like most people, it varies. There are times when I’m like, I’m only wearing pants; that’s it. I’m only wearing pants and T-shirt, and I try to dress that up, because that is the only thing that feels right. Like, if I go to RT or RWA, I’m not going to wear a dress just because I’m there. Like, if it doesn’t feel right to me I can’t do it, or I’ll be completely uncomfortable. But part of that is that when I do, with this, particularly with this designer, who is AdornedbyNicole on Etsy –

Sarah: We are going to link that –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – and we have special cool things from Miss Nicole, so thank you, Nicole.

Alyssa: Yeah, so, when I found this person and – well, when I first, the first thing, time that I really had, like, a fitting type situation was, like, for my wedding –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and as a person who had never even really thought I was going to get married, and then it was like, oh, okay, I’m getting married now. I guess I need a wedding dress, but I don’t want to do all of that stuff, so I was like, I was living, well, I wasn’t, I was living in Brooklyn, in Williamsburg, and, you know, going around in the summer, and there are these flea markets, and I saw this kind of beautiful linen dress on a mannequin, and I was like, I talked to the, and I was like, that could be a cool wedding dress. It’s white-ish – [laughs] – there’s some tulle underneath, and – but I really had no idea how, like, kind of, I didn’t, like, I’m not, I wouldn’t even go to get things, like, tailored, just because, like, that kind of stuff made me anxious, so I was either just like, it fits, or I am not wearing it, because I’m not going to go, like, have someone, like, measure me and do all that stuff because it made me very uncomfortable.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: So I started talking to the guy, and he was like, oh, yeah, I was, I was on, like, Project Runway and blah-blah, and I was like, oh, man, I am not going to be able to afford this. But that was not true, because it was like, because it’s just a kind of simple linen dress and – his name was Epperson. I forget what season of Project Runway he was on. He’s also a very fabulous designer who makes simple, cool things, and so I met with him and kind of got measured and saw, like, oh, cool! And I was like, I feel like I’m in a Regency.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: I have my modiste and he’s, like, measuring me. My mom is over here and, like, you know, giving him directions –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and it was like, oh! Now I know why, you know –

Sarah: I get it now!

Alyssa: This, this is like, yeah, this is like, this is the fun part, and also, you know, occasionally not fun part, like when you’re getting poked by pins and stuff like that, but, like, it is –

Sarah: Instead of being made to feel like your body has to fit some –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – clothing that’s premade, the clothing is going to be made to fit you –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – currently.

Alyssa: And it was just a very cool experience, and I, you know, the wedding dress came out really great, I loved it, and then I was like, oh, okay, like, I feel like this is a way of, a different way of expressing myself. I usually, my shopping in general is like, you know, H&M, Forever 21, and, like, whatever, their cheapest clothing possible, which isn’t always the most flattering clothing, you can find things that flatter you, and so I was like, this is cool, and it’s not, it doesn’t have to be super expensive. It’s not like, it doesn’t have to be a rich-person thing because, like, when you grow up at a certain income level it’s like, that’s a rich-person thing. That’s a rich –

Sarah: That’s –

Alyssa: Yeah, that’s a rich – having clothes tailored to a certain figure, like, it’s like, oh, wait, am I going to do that? Why don’t I just get, like, these ten-dollar jeans instead of getting these other things and, like – so, like, sometimes I still, like, really struggle with, like, okay, I’m spending a bit more than usual, but I tell myself – and, like, to be clear, like, my mom, also, my mom is extremely fashionable, but she’s like, super, she, like, her superpower is, like, going to the Salvation Army, finding the most amazing, like, you know –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alyssa: – high-end stuff for, like –

Sarah: For, like, six bucks.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: Like –

Sarah: That is an art form.

Alyssa: It’s crazy. And I told you, like, she’s the one who, like, sent me, like, that perfect top for my RITA dress or some crazy thing, and she was like, um, ‘cause I had to send it to my parents’ house because I don’t trust island mail all the time? And so I sent it to my parents’ house in New Jersey and, like, she was like, ah, these shirts you were, you bought are not going to work, and then she sent me, of course, like, several shirts that work perfectly, so thanks, Mom! Good looking out! [Laughs] But, yeah, so she always, and, like, that was the other thing, like, you know, I was, like, this tomboy and, like, always wearing these giant shirts and giant pants and kind of like using clothing to hide behind?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: And, like –

Sarah: I did the same thing.

Alyssa: And, like, my mom, you know, she always dressed very fashionably. Like, I don’t think I ever even saw her in jeans until, like, this past decade.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: And so, like, in a way it’s kind of like, oh, cool, like, now I see, like, the enjoyment that she got out of, like, finding these nice items for not a lot of money, ‘cause there is also that aspect of, like, I got a deal, or, like, this doesn’t have to be some crazy, like, rich-person thing, and I can still find things that make feel nice and make me feel, like, comfortable, especially at conference, which is usually when I’m wearing these kinds of things. At home, I’m just, like, wearing pajamas or whatever. But, like, like, finding nice, fashionable, affordable things that will last a really long time so they’re worth a little bit more money than, obviously, like, you know, getting something from H&M. Like, you know, not dissing H&M, obviously; I love them.

Sarah: No, but their clothing is meant to be –

Alyssa: Yeah, it’s disposable.

Sarah: It is disposable, because it’s inexpensive enough –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – to come back in the next season and get ten things for the same price. Like –

Alyssa: Yeah, and also –

Sarah: – I have a dress from H&M that I bought many RWAs ago, and I’m terrified to wash it.

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: ‘Cause I know the color and the threads –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – are just going to come right out –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – and so I’m like, all right, it’s not too hot; I can wear this dress.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: ‘Cause I can’t wash it.

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: I can only, like, wave it near some fabric softener.

Alyssa: Throw some Febreze on it.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: That’s cool.

Sarah: – it’s fine. I’m, I can never wash it. It’ll, it’ll fall apart!

Alyssa: Yeah. So, like, and, yeah, the durability, and also – so, actually, before I found the Etsy person, I was at a street fair with Mr. Cole, who is French. This comes into play; I’m not just, like, throwing that out there. So there was a woman I saw stand with all of these very adorable tiny children’s dresses in African print, and then I was trying, I asked her, oh, do you make these for adults? And she was like, oh… She could only speak French; she was from the Ivory Coast. At that point, my French was –

Sarah: Not the strongest for clothing?

Alyssa: It was like way, like super 101, and I was trying to communicate, but then, like, Mr. Cole was there. Like, he wasn’t Mr. Cole then, but he –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – came over and, like, you know, talked –

Sarah: Translated.

Alyssa: – translated and, like, she took my measurements and, like, had some super-cheap and, like, awesome and unique dresses that, like, no one else in the world has –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and it was like, oh, this is so cool, and this is just, like, I met this awesome woman; I got to, like, help the – not help, because that’s like saying someone who bought my books helped me – which you do –

Sarah: No –

Alyssa: Okay, I’m sorry, I’m going down a –

Sarah: There is a –

Alyssa: – I’m going down a rabbit hole –

Sarah: There is an element of support –

Alyssa: – but, like, buying locally – yeah, to support. Support is the right word.

Sarah: Yes. Supporting an individual business.

Alyssa: Yeah. Sorry, it’s, like, Friday at RWA; my brain is tired [Laughs]

Sarah: Word hard. Word hard brain tired.

Alyssa: But, yeah –

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

Alyssa: – support; like, so it felt good to, like, support someone who I’m, like, interacting with –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and, like, seeing, you know, how happy it makes them to, like, make things and to sell things –

Sarah: And you’re supporting a skill.

Alyssa: – and to create things.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: And, like, so she made me a couple of dresses, and then, but they were hard to find, because they didn’t have a store; they would go from –

Sarah: Fair to fair.

Alyssa: – from fair to fair, and also then I moved away from New York, so I couldn’t, like, go searching festivals for them. So then I was like, oh, I like these African print dresses, and I looked on Etsy, and I found this woman who, Nicole, and I just fell in love with her, the, her designs, like the prints, but also her designs and the, the flow of them and the shape of them, and I was like, this feels like me.

Sarah: Isn’t it the best feeling?

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, oh, I figured out how I feel most comfortable.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: So the skirt you’re wearing right now, is that in one of her designs?

Alyssa: Yes, it is.

Sarah: So it is a deep cobalt blue with big yellow and orange sunflowers and a really subtle print around them, and it’s, it’s really gorgeous!

Alyssa: Yeah, and –

Sarah: And it’s, and there’s nothing else like it.

Alyssa: Yeah, like, and it’s just really nice. I always get compliments when I’m wearing her stuff like, and especially like the first time I picked up the dress I was in New York visiting my parents and, like, you know, doing publishing stuff and, like, I, and people, this is like whenever people say New Yorkers are mean and, like, they don’t really know New Yorkers –

Sarah: No, they’re not.

Alyssa: – because, like, if you’re wearing something nice in New York, like, women, men, like, people will stop and be like, hey! That’s a nice dress! Like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – people get, like, they’re not going to continue the conversation –

Sarah: No.

Alyssa: – but it’s just like, hey, that’s nice! It’s like just this kind of, like, appreciation of like, hey, I like that; I like that.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Well, New York is inherently fashionable on many levels –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – and I remember Meg Cabot wrote in one of the, I think it was 1-800 Missing You series [1-800-Where-R-You series], that New Yorkers aren’t inherently mean; they just don’t want to stop.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: And they don’t want to be stopped.

Alyssa: Yeah! You keep the compliment, you, you say the compliment and you keep it moving.

Sarah: You, you haven’t even slowed down. Right. Hey, you look great! Thanks, bye!

Alyssa: Yeah! [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, you, they don’t, they’re not mean; they just don’t want to stop.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: That’s why taxis don’t hit you, ‘cause if they hit you then they have to stop.

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: Nobody wants to stop.

Alyssa: So it was like, oh, this is cool, like, getting a lot of compliments for this and, like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – also, I, I wanted to tell her, like, hey, everyone, like, really loves it!

Sarah: Loves what you do.

Alyssa: Every time I wear something that, from you, like, people are, like, literally, like, running by me like, hey, that’s great, that’s beautiful, where’d it come from? So I’m like, you know, going down the street, like, shouting like, AdornedbyNicole!

[Laughter]

Alyssa: Like, go on Etsy! Like, as we’re, like, passing like two ships on the street.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alyssa: So, or two taxis on the street, right.

Sarah: Right?

Alyssa: And so I, I’ve bought, like, several pieces from her that, like, have become part of my wardrobe for conferences or –

Sarah: Yes, I have said that I have two clothes –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – two classes of clothing, and one is for conferences –

Alyssa: Yes, I’m like –

Sarah: – and I never wear it except when I’m at a conference.

Alyssa: So I’m like, you know, like, don’t take too many pictures of me, ‘cause I’m going to be wearing this probably next year.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: But, but, like, you know, and always getting compliments and always just, like, just really appreciating, like, her hard work that went into it –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and so when I was writing – I’m pretty sure I started the series before I started buying from her, but then when the series was, got acquired and we started talking about cover design and they were going to have a cover shoot, which means that they would need clothing, and I was like, you know what would actually fit the mood perfectly would be this kind of like subtle African print design –

Sarah: Dress.

Alyssa: – to, yeah, to, like, because I wanted it to have a kind of regal feeling but comfortable, because the heroine doesn’t know she’s a princess and – or a princess-to-be, rather – and also just kind of to, like, let the reader know at a glance that, like, okay, here is something: it’s a beautiful dress, it’s an African print, and also another really cute thing is that she also makes, like, bowties that match the dress, so then if you look at the cover, his bowtie is the matching print for –

Sarah: So on the cover is a dress from this designer on Etsy, and the hero is wearing a matching bowtie.

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: And you know, it’s also a very interesting signal, because it’s a bright color –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – and it’s, like you said, it’s comfortable, but it’s unique and it’s regal, and someone who’s familiar with African patterns –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – is going to immediately identify that. Like, oh!

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: Why is she wearing an African print?

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: It, it, it sends signals on a multiple level, which is very cool. Ooh, I get to see the cover! I’m so excited!

Alyssa: And I also, like, I just felt like it would go perfectly, because, like, you know, we all put a little bit of ourselves into our characters that we write, and this character is not per-, like, her friend who’s in, the heroine in book two is the more fashionable one who is, you know, very, who is rich and comfortable with designer clothing and who is always thinking about presentation to a certain degree, whereas Naledi is, like, more down to earth in jeans and T-shirts, and, like, she’s working at a lab all the time. She’s wearing a waitressing uniform the other half of the time –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – or she’s going to school, so she’s not super – and it –

Sarah: Her clothing is functional, not expressive.

Alyssa: Yeah, in general, or if it’s expressing something, it’s like, I’m a nerd –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – who loves science.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: So I wanted it to be something that could, she would realistically feel comfortable in –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – as a character, not, like, some, like, crazy, flowing, long dress. So here is the cover and the –

Sarah: It is so gorgeous. And it’s a full dress, too. It has a big skirt and a really narrow waist and a gorgeous neckline.

Alyssa: And do you see his bowtie?

Sarah: His bowtie matches the pattern.

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: That is incredible. Oh, my, and also that cover is so gorgeous. Oh, my gosh!

Alyssa: Yeah, they did a really great job with it.

Sarah: Oh, my gosh, and there’s a crown! I didn’t just, I just caught the crown! She’s holding a crown behind his head! Or behind his back. [Gasps]

Alyssa: Yep.

Sarah: Oh, my gosh, y’all are going to lose your minds when you see this cover. It is, like, I could just sit here and talk!

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: Wow.

Alyssa: So, yeah, and, like, I really just wanted, if we were going to have, if they, if it was possible to just have that kind of, I felt like it would be a really great visual –

Sarah: Yeah!

Alyssa: – just because the print, like, her prints, Nicole’s prints that she chooses for her dresses are usually so bright and evocative and kind of like –

Sarah: And they’re royal colors!

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, royal blue; there’s purple. These are colors –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – that are traditionally associated with royalty.

Alyssa: So I thought it would be great for the cover, and then, like, you know, so Avon contacted her, and it worked out really well, and she sent the dress and, like, you know, the funny thing of being like, oh, like, do you want the dress after? And what are we going to do with the dress? Who’s going to get the dress?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: And then, like, they’re like, you can fit the dress, right? And I was like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alyssa: – that model is a size 0.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: No. My thigh, maybe, can fit the dress.

Sarah: I love doing that in a store. This shirt fits over my left boob, but not my right.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: So, you know, we’ll see what happens with the dress, but –

Sarah: You won’t know this pain, but you know what’s really fun? When you’re five foot three, like me, and the maxi dress is hanging up –

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and the hem of the maxi dress is at your ankle, and the hanger is above your head.

Alyssa: Oh, good.

Sarah: Like, I –

Together: Yeah.

Sarah: When the dress is taller than you, this happens to me all the time. You don’t know this pain.

Alyssa: I don’t, I don’t feel that pain.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: But I have the high waters pain of –

Sarah: That’s true. You do have the high water pain.

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: I, yeah. That’s also true.

Alyssa: Of my ankles sticking out.

Sarah: Always cold. Always cold ankles. Cropped pants –

Alyssa: But, yeah, but –

Sarah: – even when they’re not supposed to be.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: So, yeah, when cropped pants came into style I was like, yes!

Sarah: Yes! All my pants fit naturally!

Alyssa: Finally! Why couldn’t this have happened in high school?

Sarah: Right? Lord.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: Yeah, but that was like, you know, the JNCO jeans phase, but we – [laughs]

Sarah: It was a dark time.

Alyssa: It was.

Sarah: I, I was –

Alyssa: I saw some JNCOs, like, on social media, and I was like, wait, is this coming back?

Sarah: I saw somebody wearing pleated, stonewash jeans in Times Square once and was like, no! No, please, no! Please tell me you’re from the past and this is the, this is the witness of time travel. Please tell me no, this, please don’t come back. Please, stonewash, no, please. No. Just no.

Alyssa: Yeah, so, and it worked out, and it worked out really great on the cover, so –

Sarah: I think there’s something you can do with this dress. Like –

Alyssa: Oh, I mean, I’m, we’re seeing about, like, a giveaway or something like that.

Sarah: Or, this is, this would be horrible. If she has more of the fabric or, or takes the dress –

Alyssa: Oh, yeah, she sent, she sent some more fabric.

Sarah: – you could make, like, little accessories to give away that match the dress –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – like little purses –

Alyssa: Yeah!

Sarah: – scarves –

Alyssa: That’s true.

Sarah: – head scarves, headbands –

Alyssa: That is an idea. Bowties.

Sarah: – bowties, hair, um –

Alyssa: Scrunchies.

Sarah: Thank you! I’m making this open and close hand gesture, because that’s, ‘cause I have short hair and I haven’t used that word in, like, five years. Scrunchies. That would be very cool.

Alyssa: That is a good idea.

Sarah: Yep. A whole line of accessories that match the cover, because that’s really unique!

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s beautiful.

Alyssa: No, and I was planning to, like, do some giveaways of things to go along with the cover, just because it’s so fun and, like, also it’s like really cool just seeing, like, for me as the author, but also as a reader, just seeing, like, a black woman and a black couple on the cover and –

Sarah: Wearing an African print dress.

Alyssa: – wearing the African print and –

Sarah: And readers can go to that store and start ordering clothes for themselves.

Alyssa: Yeah. I mean, I think everyone should because her clothing is amazing, and – [laughs] – I’ve, it’s also, like, one cool thing about this is I don’t have to keep screaming AdornedbyNicole! It can just be in one helpful spot. People –

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: – can go find her.

Sarah: Yep. Poor Nicole –

Alyssa: And the –

Sarah: – she’s going to be like, uh, listen –

Alyssa: [Laughs] She’s like, I only have two hands! But the other thing that’s interesting too, like, this isn’t her full-time job, like, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – for me as a writer –

Sarah: This is her side hustle.

Alyssa: Yeah. As a writer, you know, most of us writers are generally doing something else, and, like, just, we write because we have to, because we feel like this is, like, our creative outlet –

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: – and so that also was something that really attracted me is, like, she has her full-time job and, like, she just really loves making clothing so much and has these ideas and these designs and these, like, creates these beautiful things that make people happy and, like, kind of a, you know, I saw the kind of correlation between that and what most artists do, what we do as writers, putting beauty into the world, and it’s –

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: – the way that we can.

Sarah: And independent women creators can support –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – other independent women creators –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – making various forms of art.

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: And, and wearable art is so, so intrinsically bound up in so much of the history, like –

Alyssa: Yeah, and, like, even the idea of, like – so, like, I wear head wraps a lot, not at conference usually, but, like, African print head wraps or just, like, you know, solid print head wraps. I think they’re great, and I usually get them by, from – ooh, why am I blanking on the name? – and there was the history of, like, black women were told that they had to keep their heads covered and, like, in certain places they would use these, like, very elaborate, bright, beautiful designs, like in New Orleans.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: There’s a name for it that I’m totally blanking on because, again, it’s, you know –

Together: It’s Friday at RWA.

Alyssa: [Laughs] But –

Sarah: Let’s do interviews!

Alyssa: So there’s, like, you know, this aspect of, like, using these beautiful bright colors as a form of – and this is even something that comes into some of the stories that I’m writing now, that, how clothing can sometimes be like a form of armor and a form of protection –

Sarah: Oh, absolutely.

Alyssa: – and a form of keeping yourself – like, that’s why when people, like, often there can be in some, like, kind of feminist circles, or the idea that if you dress up, if you wear makeup, if you wear beautiful clothing, that you’re, like –

Sarah: Participating in your own –

Alyssa: – you’re participating in patriarchy, in your own subjugation, or anything like that, but a lot of times, and especially depending on the context of your –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – own cultural background, it can be a form of, I don’t want to say rebellion – definitely rebellion, though, because of, in actual historical context, it is, it was actual rebellion –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – but in current context of, it can be a way of protecting yourself and kind of crafting your own image and making sure that you feel comfortable and safe and able to move through the world –

Sarah: Yes.

Alyssa: – in a way that is comfortable to you.

Sarah: Absolutely.

Alyssa: So I –

Sarah: And plus, at places like RWA, I remem-, I remember learning from the sociologists Joanna Gregson and Jen Lois, who are studying the romance community from a sociological perspective, they were telling me that, as is commonly known by sociologists, single-gender communities eventually embody hypertrophied aspect of that gender –

Alyssa: Yeah!

Sarah: – so large groups of men who spend time with just men, you see a lot of hypertrophied masculinity, a lot of muscles, bodybuilding, that kind of thing. With women, especially if you see it at RWA, it’s like plumage.

Alyssa: Yeah!

Sarah: And we’re all plumage for each other, and part of that is, part of that is armor –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – and I am presenting my best, most professional self, but it’s also, you can see some of the women who are walking around, you can, you can just sort of see so much pride and poise and –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – and confidence –

Alyssa: And one –

Sarah: – as part of how you’re wearing.

Alyssa: And one thing that makes me happy – so, I’m just going to show you this. The head wrap place is called The Wrap Life, W-R-A-P Life.

Sarah: The Wrap Life. Awesome!

Alyssa: And, and these, they make these beautiful head wraps.

Sarah: Gorgeous!

Alyssa: They gather fabrics from around the world, and that’s also just fun too, and also when I don’t feel like doing my hair or doing – [laughs] – I like this, and also it’s, like, just a nice accessory, too, to wear out. But the thing about RWA and dressing up and things like that is like, like I said, I don’t always feel like wearing a dress, and, like, sometimes I’m just, like, I’m just going to wear jeans and a T-shirt and, like, I’ll put a blazer on, on top of that to try and dress it up or whatever, and I think it’s important too, when talking about dressing and about fashion, like, I feel like fashion can be made to feel very inaccessible, or it can be made to feel like it’s this one particular thing, and then other people who feel like, I am not fashionable, they feel uncomfortable, they feel like they aren’t wearing the right thing at RWA or they can’t come to RWA because they don’t have the right thing to wear –

Sarah: I went through that.

Alyssa: – and, and it’s like, I feel like that’s, like, a very traumatizing thing, especially for people who have been told that they aren’t feminine –

Sarah: Or beautiful or –

Alyssa: – or they, they, they aren’t beautiful, they aren’t doing or dressing the right way, they aren’t wearing the right thing, or they don’t have the right shape, the right build, or the right, you know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – height, stature, and –

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: – whatever for wearing beautiful things, or for people who are, like, gender-nonconforming who don’t want to wear a dress or who want to wear a dress and are told that they shouldn’t wear a dress, and, like, the all of, there is, like, so much anxiety about what to wear, and particularly what to wear at conference, and, like, one of the things I do enjoy is, like, just seeing, like, the variety of things people wear. Like, you know, there are people just wearing jeans and sneakers and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – that’s fine too.

Sarah: And that’s cool.

Alyssa: And there are people who, for them, like, and especially for writers who, you know, we, if you work at home and if your other job is from, working from home, or if you’re a stay-at-home mom or things like that where you’re not really dressing up that much –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – it can be, like you said, that opportunity to feel like, here is this armor that I’m donning and –

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: – getting to go out and wear this, like, nice thing that makes me feel nice, and like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – so that’s why I really don’t enjoy when the idea of femininity or – I don’t think it should be promoted as, like, oh, you, you must dress like this to be dressed correctly for RWA or for going out –

Sarah: Like there’s only one way to be this.

Alyssa: – but I also don’t like the thing pushing back against it, which is, if you wear makeup and lipstick or if, or if you’re –

Sarah: ‘Cause you’re enabling the –

Alyssa: – if you’re dressing too nicely, then you are –

Sarah: Enabling the patriarchy –

Alyssa: – enabling the patriarchy or in, in some way, like, showing off or being, you should kind of refrain from doing that. Like, people should dress how they want. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes.

Alyssa: At the bottom line. Like, as with anything, people should do what they want, as long as it’s not harmful –

Sarah: You do you.

Alyssa: – to anyone else.

Sarah: Or yourself. But also, with these particular dresses and these patterns, you are also owning your blackness visibly and colorfully, which –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – in itself is a radical statement.

Alyssa: And for me, it’s also just kind of, I am obviously black when I’m walking around, so people see that –

Sarah: What?!

Alyssa: – but I kind of, I kind of just also like having, I feel like it’s, in a way, I don’t want to say it’s part of my brand, but it’s part of my brand armor of, like –

Sarah: Of course!

Alyssa: – this is telling you straight out kind of who I am, and, but –

Sarah: It’s visible, colorful pride.

Alyssa: Yeah. And in a way, I appreciate, I do that, I do feel that a little bit, but I try not to get too crazy with it, ‘cause I’m not African; I’m American.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: So, and they, like, for African people, African prints are their everyday clothing; it’s not some specialty thing for them –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and so I try to, like, walk the balance between, like, I’m not trying to, like, come out in, like, a full, like – [laughs] – you know, and that’s the thing about these, like, these clothes, they are African prints, but they are, generally the styles are the artists’, the designers’ own, and, like, they’re, like, very contemporary styles. They’re not, they’re not like traditional African cuts –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and designs for the clothing. They’re inspired by them sometimes for certain dresses, but these are, like, very chic and comfortable, casual, can be dressed up kind of –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – clothing, and it, it’s not like – because sometimes when you, also when you search for African clothing, there, there is African clothing that people are –

Sarah: There are styles, yes. African print and African style.

Alyssa: Yeah. African styles are a different thing, and there are African designers who are selling those things too, and I do have some things from that, but, like, for me, I don’t, I’m like, I’m not trying to, like, appropriate?

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: Because there, you know, there are African RWA members; they can wear that –

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: – if that, they feel comfortable with that, and like, this is something Sonali was talking about earlier on our panel. Like, she was like, you know, she’s wearing her sari and –

Sarah: You did a whole panel this morning on branding.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: Being your brand.

Alyssa: Yeah, and she was like, she doesn’t necessarily wear that to go to Costco –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alyssa: – but it’s also not fake or weird for her –

Sarah: No.

Alyssa: – to wear it, because that is her culture and she feels comfortable wearing that.

Sarah: And that’s her identity.

Alyssa: Yeah, and so it’s like, I feel comfortable wearing this, but I’m not going to show up looking like, you know, wearing, like, a full giant head wrap and, like –

Sarah: Like you’re going to a wedding in Nigeria.

Alyssa: – very spe-, very, very specific cultural clothing –

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: – that is not from my culture, because I’m not trying to appropriate any particular African culture, because that belongs to someone else; it doesn’t belong to me.

Sarah: Right. But also, one very smart thing is that, I’ve noticed over the years doing author interviews and doing podcast interviews, and this is certainly true for me as well: it’s a lot easier for me to promote another artist or another creator other than myself. Like, I have to be reminded, you, you do know, Sarah, that you have books that you could talk about that have your name on them?

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, right! Yes! So you’re walking around with this other designer, it’s part of your brand, but there is an inherent network or generosity in that because you can talk about this other designer and say, you can go to her store and this is someone’s work.

Alyssa: Yeah, and, and –

Sarah: Nobody can wear your book, but you can wear another artist’s work and help promote them, and that –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – for me, that would make me a lot more comfortable to talk, like –

Alyssa: I mean –

Sarah: – small talk and conversation with people I don’t know.

Alyssa: – I just get, like, I get very excited about things that, I mean, like most humans – [laughs] – get very excited about, like, things that I enjoy, and especially things that I find, like, beautiful and moving and –

Sarah: Creativity is exciting.

Alyssa: – yeah, and creative, and, like, like, you know, it’s the same for me; it’s like book squee when you read that book –

Sarah: Yes!

Alyssa: – that you really enjoy?

Sarah: Yes, absolutely!

Alyssa: So, like, this is, like, dress squee or, like, skirt squee –

Sarah: Clothing squee, yep.

Alyssa: – and it’s, and, you know, it’s one of the other cool things about being at RWA and you see someone, you’re like, oh, your dress is so pretty; your shirt is so pretty; your ear-, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – or, like, you know, that looks great on you, and it’s like, just kind of like, makes you happy too to see someone else feeling happy and –

Sarah: Compliments usually feel pretty good.

Alyssa: So –

Sarah: Good ones.

Alyssa: Yeah, and –

Sarah: A well-crafted compliment.

Alyssa: – and, like, just seeing, like, you know, everyone feeling happy and feeling good about themselves, and hopefully feeling good about themselves and not feeling like they, you know, had to wear something they didn’t want to wear or don’t fit in or anything like that. So, yeah, being able to wear something nice, that makes me feel happy and makes me feel comfortable and also, I mean, like, look at this! Like, can you believe another human –

Sarah: Made this.

Alyssa: – made this in her part-time – [laughs] – at her part –

Sarah: Yes, in her spare time.

Alyssa: – in her spare time.

Sarah: As her side gig.

Alyssa: Like, it’s not even, like, her full-time, like, I’m fairly certain she’s an accountant. And just, like, the fact that someone sat down and, like, took care and put some part of themselves into this –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – makes it, like, really special for me.

Sarah: Yep. That’s very special, and it’s, it’s, it’s almost inherently generous.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: This is her spare time and –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – yes, she should be paid for her labor, but she is creating works of wearable art –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – for other people to feel beautiful in.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: I mean, that’s just a gorgeous thing all the way around.

Alyssa: And if you go to her Instagram, like, there are so many cute and, like, cool pictures of, like, you know, like a whole family, like, the mom wearing a dress and, like, the little baby wearing a dress and then the dad wearing, like, the bowtie, like for their family pictures, and it’s just, like, really beautiful and, like, a way of, I don’t know, the wearable art aspect –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and, like, just –

Sarah: Is wonderful.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: So you have a coupon code.

Alyssa: I do. I believe –

Sarah: So, we, you, you were smart enough to reach out to Nicole –

Alyssa: Well, I just wanted to be like, hey, I’m going to talk about you, so –

Sarah: Heads up!

[Laughter]

Alyssa: Hope-, you know, hopefully if you start getting –

Sarah: Stock up on thread, my friend.

Alyssa: Just, l was just like – well, I wanted to also make sure; I was like, is it okay if I –

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: – talk about how awesome you are? And she was like, uh, yeah!

[Laughter]

Alyssa: She didn’t say that exactly, but I think that was the –

Sarah: Like, yes, that is fine. You, you may talk about what I do, is cool.

Alyssa: She said that she was really excited to hear that it was going to be talked about on a podcast –

Sarah: Yay!

Alyssa: – and also she was, was going to make a coupon code for ten percent off of her clothing.

Sarah: That’s so great!

Alyssa: And the code is ALYSSA10.

Sarah: A-L-Y-S-S-A-1-0.

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: And I will have all of this information in the podcast entry.

Alyssa: Yeah. So, you know, if you like beautiful clothing and supporting –

Sarah: Independent creative artists.

Alyssa: – independent creators, check it out. And, like, just, the stuff is really beautiful, and it’s, for me, really cool to see people, no matter what their art is, like, pursuing their dream and –

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: – and I was so excited that it got to be on the cover, just because it looks pretty. [Laughs]

Sarah: Beautiful! It’s so beautiful! So in the podcast entry, I will have pictures of the cover, links to all your books, and information and links to the store with the coupon code, so anyone who’s listening can go check out designs by Nicole and get ten percent off with ALYSSA10.

Alyssa: AdornedbyNicole.

Sarah: Excuse me, AdornedbyNicole! I beg your pardon, Nicole.

Alyssa: Yes. And –

Sarah: Bad, bad wording Friday RWA.

Alyssa: – and I will say I’m pretty sure she’s on Instagram and Facebook, and not on Twitter.

Sarah: I will link to all those things. I will link to all of them. That’s so great!

Alyssa: Yay!

Sarah: Is there anything else you wanted to add?

Alyssa: Maybe we could talk about some books that I’m reading.

Sarah: Yes, please, if you don’t mind, ‘cause I didn’t prepare you for that question. I don’t like to ask it if I haven’t said, and I’m going to ask you what you’re reading! ‘Cause sometimes people go, uh, I have no idea. Do I even read? I don’t remem-, remember if I read.

Alyssa: [Laughs] Okay, so, things that I have started reading or have read: Between a Honeymoon and a Hot Mess by Phyllis Bourne, which is the second book in her hot mess series [Sinclair Brides], which is romantic comedy. It was really funny. It’s a second-chance romance, and the heroine is kind of very, she’s a perfectionist. She has not, she, her college boyfriend cheated on her, and she kind of after that never pursued her dreams. She, like, went back to the family business, and then she’s in Vegas for her, her sister’s wedding, has a bit much to drink, and wakes up married to her college sweetheart, who she ran into.

Sarah: Oops!

Alyssa: [Laughs] And so –

Sarah: Oh, dear.

Alyssa: – it was like a really great, it’s really great and funny and sweet, and it’s kind of like – and I usually don’t get down with, like, formerly cheating heroes –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – but, like, I thought it had a really interesting take on it of, like, he was, like, this nerd; this beautiful woman who made him, built him up and made him feel really great; and he ruined that by, like, getting too full of himself –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and he’s a life coach at this point, so she’s kind of like, you know, screw this; I’m not, like, staying married to you, and he’s like, well, okay, no, but maybe I can – he feels bad that, knowing that she didn’t achieve her dreams in part because of him, so he starts helping her plan her goal to leave her family’s business and start, become a writer and a blogger, and it’s, like, super sweet, and it’s, like, about not letting perfectionism, you know, ruin your chances at happiness –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and not being so down on yourself for not doing everything perfectly and to just try to do your best, and also with love and romance and hot sex and, like, laughter. So, yeah, Between a Honeymoon and a Hot Mess by Phyllis Bourne.

I’ve also started reading, like, Cat Sebastian’s male/male Avon historicals, and her writing is amazing, and I love it. So the one I’m reading now is The Soldier’s Scoundrel, which is, you know, it’s just, she’s a great writer. Check her out.

And what else am I reading? I’m looking at my Kindle, just so you know. [Laughs]

Sarah: Everyone does this; this is normal; everyone does this.

Alyssa: Just like, just, like, to make sure that I’m, like, not getting anything wrong. You know, the other stuff is, like, in my TBR pile. My next book that I plan on reading is Sounds Like Summer by Six de los Reyes, and she wrote Love and Other Chemical –

Sarah: Love and Other Chemical Reactions, yes.

Alyssa: And I’ve heard a lot of great stuff about that, and it’s next on my TBR pile. Oh, and did I – okay, Better at Weddings Than You, just speaking of romance class, Better at Weddings Than You by Mina V. Esguerra.

Sarah: Yes.

Alyssa: I really enjoyed that heroine. It’s a heroine and hero who are both wedding planners and kind of, you know, have a little bit of a rivalry but also, like, just, the way she writes, her characterization is so unique and, like, really awesome and realistic and, like, you, whenever I read a book by her, I’m always, like, thinking about her characters later.

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: Like –

Sarah: They seem so real.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: And they’re, they’re flawed in ways that aren’t a caricature, and they’re –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – real in ways that are relatable, and it’s, she’s really good –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – at creating fictional –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – vivid, real people.

Alyssa: Yeah. And, and you’re always drawn into her books and, like, yeah, just for like, oh, what are they doing now? Oh, wait, they’re not – [laughs]

Sarah: They’re not real! Shit!

Alyssa: They’re not real. They’re just still hanging out in that book, because that’s where they live.

Sarah: Well, I mean, I have many, many mental canon fanfics about Ivan –

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and what he and his wife are doing right now.

Alyssa: I was actually thinking of writing something, like, for Christmas this year. Maybe I’ll do that. As if I have –

Sarah: I would be in favor.

Alyssa: [Laughs] A short, a very short story, ‘cause I also think about what they’re doing too, Ivan and Sophie and their, their children now.

[music]

Sarah: And that is all for this week’s episode. Thank you so much to Alyssa Cole for hanging out in my room. As you can tell, this was Friday of RWA; we were very loopy and tired, but I am so excited to have shared this conversation with you.

And if you would like that coupon information – I’m sure that you would – first, you can go to smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, the podcast entry for this episode, if you are on the treadmill or cleaning the house or dyeing wool – hello, yes! I’m in your house. You have good snacks. Just kidding! That’s creepy – if you’re, you know, busy, you should go to the website, and then you can find all the information, but if you’ve got a pen right now and you’re like, oh, my gosh, give me the code! Here you go: AdornedbyNicole is on Etsy, and the code for ten percent off an item is ALYSSA – A-L-Y-S-S-A – the number ten [ALYSSA10]. So you can get ten percent off an item from AdornedbyNicole. She made the dress that’s on Alyssa’s book cover and several other items of clothing that I have seen Alyssa wear at conferences that are really beautiful, and her clothing has pockets! It’s amazing! Definitely check out AdornedbyNicole, and thank you so much, Nicole, for this coupon. I really, really appreciate it.

This episode was brought to you by Pretend You’re Safe by Alexandra Ivy and by Kensington Books. Thank you, Kensington! This book is entirely Elyse catnip; if you like creepy thrillers, this is going to be exactly what you want to read. Listen to this: First came the floods, then the bodies, then the lockets. Lockets filled with bloodstained hair. Jaci Patterson escaped a serial killer as a young girl. Now that same serial killer, or a copycat, is targeting her once again, taunting her, stalking her, and leaving her more perverted gifts. As a teen, she could not convince the cops that what was happening to her was anything but a prank. Now that literal bodies have begun to surface, will the police finally take up the case? Demonstrating her strong plotting ability, Pretend You’re Safe by New York Times bestselling author Alexandra Ivy is a tale full of thrilling suspense, unforgettable twists, and a tale so chilling it will have readers looking over their shoulders, because in this world, no one is safe. For more information, you can visit kensingtonbooks.com.

Now, the music you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This is Caravan Palace. This track is one of my favorites from this two-album set; it is called “Queens.” You can find it on their double-album set, which includes Caravan Palace and Panic. You can find that at Amazon or on iTunes.

We are also on iTunes at iTunes.com/DBSA. You can find recent episodes and some of the books that we discuss in the iBookstore. So if you’re an iPerson, or an iOS type of person, definitely check that out.

One more thing to tell you – eh, couple more things. First: Patreon. We have a Patreon. It is patreon.com/SmartBitches. And I have begun transcribing, or commissioning transcripts from garlicknitter, for early episodes. I think we’re up to about episode 9; I don’t remember numbers, which means that numbering a podcast is always a challenge for me. But we have started transcripts for the older episodes, dating back to 2009 and 2011, and it’s been really, really fun for me to read over the transcripts for these older episodes, so definitely have a look. If you are enjoying the transcripts, or you like the show, or you’d like to participate in behind-the-scenes shenanigans, please have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. For one dollar a month, you make a deeply, deeply appreciated difference in the strength of the show, and I am very, very grateful, so thank you.

Are you still listening? Are you still here? That’s really cool, ‘cause I have more cool things to tell you. You ready for cool things? Here are some cool things: first of all, if you would like to email me, ask me a question, or suggest something, or, you know, tell me what you thought of a particular episode, I think hearing from you is super cool, so you should email me at [email protected] or [email protected]. They both end up in the same place, which is my inbox, so please email me!

And if you would like to ask a question to be included on a show, you can always record a voice memo on your phone and then just email it to me, or leave us a voicemail at 1-201-371-3272. You can ask for a recommendation; you can tell us something you want to tell us about; you can tell us a joke. I love jokes. I have really bad jokes. You want to hear a bad joke? This is your reward for listening all the way through the outro, which is totally a word. You ready for a bad joke? This is my favorite bad joke lately – oh, no, I have two bad jokes! I’ll save the next one for next episode. So here’s a bad joke: What is red and smells like blue paint? Give up? Not sure? What’s red and smells like blue paint? Red paint. [Laughs] That’s a terrible joke, right? I love that joke. Anyway, if you want to leave me a joke, you can call on our voicemail at 1-201-371-3272. That is a US number, so strange dialing patterns and costs may apply.

You can always email us or leave a voicemail or send us a voice memo, but however it is that you contact us, hearing from you is awesome. And if you like or subscribe or share the podcast or leave a review in the Apple Podcast app, which I understand is new and nifty, or wherever you get your podcasts, it helps people discover the show, and I’m deeply grateful for that too.

So since you’re the greatest human being, I’m going to let you get on with your day, right? On behalf of Alyssa Cole and myself and everyone here, including all the animals, we wish you the very best of reading. Have an excellent, excellent weekend.

[majestic music]