[music]

Sarah Wendell:  Hello, and welcome to episode number 204 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books.  I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and I am here with all of my dogs and cats.  Someone is going to be making noise by digging in the carpet any minute now.  Wait!  Wait!  Nope, nope, false alarm.  Well, until my dogs start digging in the floor, I am here with Ashleigh Gardner from Wattpad, who has been a guest of the podcast before.  [dig, dig, dig] Ah!  Carpet digging!  Right on cue.  I, I swear, it’s like I turn on the mic, and it’s time to dig a hole in the carpet.  Hasn’t done it all day; does it right now.  Anyway.

This week I have an interview with Ashleigh Gardner from Wattpad discussing in particular the proliferation of Muslim romance on Wattpad.  Now, if you are a member of RWA you may have seen in this month’s issue an article written by Alyssa Cole for that magazine about Muslim romance, and if you were thinking, I would like to learn some more, well, I’m here to help you.  The timing was not planned.  It’s entirely coincidental, but I’m pretty excited about it nonetheless.  We are going to be talking about the growing collection of romances by and about Muslims that are tremendously popular.  We’re going to talk about familiar tropes and plot hooks being explored, like converting the bad boy and surprise encounter with a rock star.  We also talk about trends that aren’t represented in mainstream publishing that are growing exponentially inside the Wattpad community and also what happens when readers say, I don’t see me, so I’m writing me right now.

I have links to all of the stories that we discuss, so if you’re thinking, I really want to check that out, I will have links, and I also have email and voicemail from you guys celebrating our two hundredth episode by telling me about the books that made you into romance readers, and this is awesome!  So I have links to those as well.

And if I could have just twelve to fourteen seconds of your time before you hit the skip ahead button, which is a pretty addictive button, I agree, thank you for putting this podcast among the podcasts that you listen to each week or each month.  I am enormously flattered that you’re here, and if you have a moment and the inclination, I would like to invite you to check out our Patreon campaign at Patreon.com/SmartBitches.  I have goals!  Many goals!  One of them is for transcripts for every episode, ‘cause I’ve got about sixty-five, seventy that don’t have one yet, and the ability to transcribe every episode is really important to me.  Starting with as little as $1 a month, you can be a monthly supporter of the podcast, and if you have already, thank you.  If you thought about it, you’re awesome.  If you’ve taken a look or shared the link, I think you rule.  But most of all, thank you for listening; I really appreciate it.

The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater, and I will have information at the end of the podcast as to who this is.  I will also have information about where you can find all of the stories and books that we talk about in this episode.

And most importantly, this episode is being brought to you by New York Times bestselling author Victoria Danann.  She is introducing a unique and delightful group of witches in the Witches of Wimberley series, a contemporary paranormal romance about witches living among humans in the small and magical town of Wimberley, Texas.  Willem is an out-of-work actor.  He gave himself ten years to make it and never got a single paying job, and while waiting for what would probably be his last audition ever, the guy standing behind him in line gives him a card with a phone number on it and says, if you’re really quitting, try the witches.  Willem is a bright and light-hearted read featuring a reluctant groom, a beguiling heroine, and above all, a lot of fun.  You can get your copy of Willem today, and when you’re done, you’re going to wish you lived in Wimberley too.

I am really excited about this week’s episode.  I hope you enjoy it, and now, without any further delay, on with the podcast!

[music]

Sarah:  So thank you so much for doing this.  I have been thinking about this, this random comment that you made, like, over a month ago about how Muslim romance is over-indexed at Wattpad, and I’m sort of fascinated by that, because there’s not a lot of it in the romance genre as being published right now, but it seems like there’s a very, very eager audience for it in your community.

Ashleigh Gardner:  Absolutely.  I think it’s been growing really fast, and it’s something that I kind of noticed, maybe around about a year and a half ago I noticed a few stories really making their way up, up the Hot List, which is kind of, you know, our equivalent of the bestseller list –

Sarah:  Right.

Ashleigh:  – and they just kept going, and then they started multiplying, and then it seemed like, wow, this is becoming a really huge trend.  I think compared to the traditional book industry you’re right, you don’t see it published a lot, whereas on Wattpad seven hundred new stories were uploaded in the past seven days that were kind of within that category.

Sarah:  So your Hot List is the number of reads or the number of people who are favoriting it?  Like, how, can you say how that’s measured, or is that private internal algorithm logic?

Ashleigh:  It’s, it’s definitely a bit of a secret sauce –

Sarah:  Yes!

Ashleigh:  – because we also don’t want people to be gaming it as well –

Sarah:  Of course.

Ashleigh:  – but it’s a combination of lots of different things.  It’s not just based on pure popularity because we count reads by chapter so that you can see how people are engaging with your story over time as a writer, and so by that count, something with more reads could just be longer in, in theory, so we do measure, like, engagement, the amount of time that people are spending actually reading it and within the story, as well as comments and faves and replies and sharing.  These are all things that kind of go into what makes a story rise to the top of that list.

Sarah:  That makes sense.  So what types of Muslim romances are super popular right now?  Are there particular genres that are, that are really exploding in terms of audience, or is it pretty much, there’s nothing, so everything’s popular, because it, there’s, this is the best place to find this particular genre?

Ashleigh:  Well, I think in a lot of ways there’s becoming so much of it now, like, in having our team look at it.  Wattpad doesn’t have kind of a, a structure or, you know, categories like a bookshelf or a library.  It’s much more freeform with a lot of tags –

Sarah:  Right.

Ashleigh:  – and so a lot of it was kind of crunching what are the tags, because not everyone’s labeling it in the same way, so that was kind of interesting just to look at that, but in kind of the tags that we collected there’s maybe, like, sixty-five thousand unique stories, which is really big, and like the Muslim community in general, there, it’s not one genre or one label.  I think it’s really diverse as far as what we’re seeing come out of it.  Some of them are just traditional stories that you wouldn’t even label as Muslim fiction, where that happens to be how the characters identify, and sometimes it’s really entrenched in the story itself, where there are really strong religious themes, and it’s about arranged marriage or, you know, in stories in France we’re seeing a lot of conflicted stories about young women wearing hijab.  I think that’s a tag that we really saw come out in France as a different category.  And then Wattpad’s extremely popular in Turkey as well, where there’s a, a really huge Muslim community too which tends to be interested in different things and a bit more conservative than our U.S. Muslim romance, for example.

Sarah:  So are there historicals as well, or is it, is it mostly contemporary?

Ashleigh:  Oh, no, there are historicals.  As far as the timeframe, yeah, it goes all the way into, you know, previous eras and more historical stories that set in that era.  It’s in contemporary romance and teen fiction.  One of my favorite stories that I, I saw, a big theme on Wattpad in general is bets and bad boys and – [laughs] – I think that’s a theme that we see through so many teen fiction, and there’s a story called Converting the Bad Boy about a young Muslim girl who falls in love with the bad boy at school and introduces him to Islam, which I thought was kind of an interesting twist on that genre, and it’s really kind of cute and funny and contemporary.  We also see lots of Muslim fanfic, which I thought was really interesting too, because while in some cases they tend to write about the same people teens all over the world are writing about, One Direction, the skew of who they write about within that is different.  Zayn definitely comes out on top, rather than Harry, and they’re also, you know, completely new on areas that we, that we hadn’t, or people that I wasn’t aware about.  I’m just pulling up a name; it’s MaNan, where there’s this couple that is ‘shipped from this MTV India show that appears a lot in Muslim fanfic.

Sarah:  Huh!  In addition to the, Converting the Bad Boy and bets and bad boys, are the tropes pretty familiar?  Is it established and familiar hooks and stories that are being set in Muslim worlds and Muslim cultures?

Ashleigh:  I think there are some that are a bit more unique to people within that world.  Like I, I said, I think there’s a huge amount of diverse genres or tropes, but I think things that don’t come up as much are things like arranged marriage.  Like, you know, growing up wearing hijab, but I also think that those are quite universal stories of, of self discovery and being true to yourself that just are kind of encompassed within that theme.

Sarah:  Wow.  So, with, with the stories that you’ve noticed that are, that are increasing in popularity, you said something to me over email about how this is, this genre has taken over the spiritual genre page.

Ashleigh:  Yeah.

Sarah:  So these are being tagged more as spiritual stories than romances.

Ashleigh:  I think we definitely see both.  So, like I said on Wattpad, while we don’t have some categories, we do have kind of like super-tags where stories are collected on their own type of, they’re, they get their own Hot List for visibility –

Sarah:  Right.

Ashleigh:  – so a lot of writers are posting them in romance, and that’s fine, but we also noticed a lot of writers posting these in spiritual, probably because they’re not seeing a place that is saying that this is the list for you, so they’ve created their own, and probably about a year and a half, two years ago, that list was mostly poetry, nonfiction stories about religious discovery, and now it’s, you know, we let our community decide what so many of these categories are and how they’re using them, and now it’s almost entirely Muslim romance when you look at that Hot List, or Muslim fiction in general, and I think that while we don’t tell people they have to tag their story in a certain category, a lot of them are coming up within romance and within teen fiction.  I think it’s an interesting evolution that this community’s created for visibility for themselves.

Sarah:  And it also allows people to sort of say to the readers, this is a romance, but it has a very large spiritual element, whereas the religion and the culture affect what the characters do because it’s a part of their daily lives.

Ashleigh:  Yeah, I definitely think you’re right that it, it is a much stronger signal, and I think the more that people are seeing it, the more Wattpad seems like a place for it and encourages more people to write and add their stories.

Sarah:  Right.

Ashleigh:  And you’re right, beyond just the, the main category, while it does tell romance readers there are a lot of spiritual themes, there are lots of other clues that it’s a romance.  I think that when you look at the covers, you see a lot of those kind of similar embrace covers that are signals that it’s a romance story.

Sarah:  So, of the stories that are, are popular right now, is it a lot of new writers, or is this new, new people to the Wattpad community, or are there people who are, who have been there for a while and are starting to write on their own?

Ashleigh:  It’s a mix of both.  I think that, you know, one of the first stories that really brought this trend up for me was one that, that I sent you by link, and it’s called a, A Muslim’s Romantic Journey, and it won a Watty award, which is our equivalent of, of, like, the Oscars.  It’s the stories that are chosen by our community as the best stories, and it’s up for a vote every year –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Ashleigh:  – and this was one that was a standout then, which was the first one that I really noticed making, like, even outside of our Hot List, it was one that was really visible from all of the data reports that I get that aren’t even visible to most readers, because it was growing so quickly, and it was one that we were seeing so many new tags added to when we saw this one on the rise, so it was one of the first ones that I saw, and it’s still on our Hot List.  So this is one that was being written in 2013.  It won the 2014 Watty, and now, two years later, it’s still one of the most popular stories in that category, but I think we’re seeing these stories inspire so many new people to add their stories as well, so it’s really a mix of new stories and new Wattpad users and people that have been in the community for a while.

Sarah:  And it’s also an opportunity to reach the community that you may be a part of as a, if, if you’re a Muslim writer, because there isn’t a lot of other option available for writing romance fiction that is heavily imbued with Muslim culture.

Ashleigh:  Yeah!  I think you’re right.  I think that it is an area that is being ignored.  I also think it shows an appetite.  There are so many readers that are interested –

Sarah:  Goodness, yes.

Ashleigh:  – in this.  It’s not just Muslim readers that are reading these stories.  When we look at what else they’re reading, they’re reading everything.  It’s not like we can say that it’s one group.  It’s not like they’re from one area, and in fact, in some cases it’s the areas that are probably less welcoming to Muslim culture that are, have more of an appetite for it.  Like, I was really surprised when I saw the number of stories being posted in France compared to the number of readers of these stories in France.  There were far many readers than writers than we see the split being in, in other countries.

Sarah:  So there were more readers in France looking for stories about Muslims than there were writers in France posting stories about Muslims.

Ashleigh:  Yeah, that’s right.

Sarah:  Wow.  I did a podcast interview recently with a reader who is Muslim and was desperate for more Muslim romance, and when I told her some there was, there, there was so much on Wattpad and that I was going to be talking to you, she was like, oh, oh, my gosh, really?  I had, I had no idea.  Tell me all the stories.  Tell me all the names.  I know you mentioned a little bit ago one story that was growing in popularity.  Was that A Muslim’s Romantic Journey?

Ashleigh:  A Muslim’s Romantic Journey was probably the first really huge story that we saw on Wattpad as part of this trend, yes.

Sarah:  Can you tell me about that particular story?  Can you tell me about some of the other ones that you’ve seen?

Ashleigh:  Yeah, so, that story in particular is now at almost fourteen million reads, which is massive for any story in our community, let alone within kind of a, a separate category, and it’s –

Sarah:  Wow.

Ashleigh:  – about a girl who is really eager to, to get married.  She’s looking forward to marriage.  She is expecting an arranged marriage, because that’s how her family, how her family operates and what she’s always expected as part of her culture, and then she falls in love with someone who maybe is not the one that she’s going to be arranged to be married to, but they, you know, later find out that they’re the same ones that they have been trying to set them up with together, so it’s a, definitely a really kind of cute story.  It’s one that’s been really popular, and it, something that’s so interesting as well is the types of comments.  Wattpad allows inline comments, so as you’re reading stories you can see how other readers are responding to them.  There’s also been a lot of fanfiction now written about these characters as one of the most popular stories within the genre that we’ve seen on Wattpad.  And it –

Sarah:  So, wait, people are writing fanfic about the characters of the story.

Ashleigh:  Yes, and that’s something that we see happen a lot on Wattpad as stories get really popular, and maybe the writer isn’t writing fast enough or updating quick enough.  Other people start to imagine what they think happens and, and write and add those.

Sarah:  Wow.

Ashleigh:  It’s something that we see across all genres on Wattpad, not just unique to this one.  Another one that I mentioned too that I’ve been really interested in was this teen fiction called Converting the Bad Boy.  To me, that just felt like a combination of so many different tropes that we see on Wattpad, and it’s one that’s popular outside of just the Muslim fiction community.  We see a lot of people that love teen fiction on Wattpad be really interested in that.  I think we’re also seeing other areas that are popular in other types of romance.  There’re a lot of stories about billionaires and, you know, being someone’s assistant or maid and falling in love with them is, is definitely something that we’ve seen a lot of.

Sarah:  And that’s very familiar.  I mean, that sounds like Harlequin.  That sounds like so much contemporary.  It also sounds like a lot of fanfic as well.

Ashleigh:  Absolutely.  There’s another one that I started reading, you know, in preparation for this that really caught my attention because of the cover, and I’d encourage anyone who hasn’t been on Wattpad to, like, every time I, I tell a writer to join they come in and they’re like, how do people get these amazing covers?  Like, what am I missing?  And the talent that is in the community from the writers and from young people today is, just always blows me away, but this story is called Muslim Tomboy?…Impossible, and you know, part of it just reminded me immediately of, like, Bend It Like Beckham, of a girl who is trying to make her family happy while also is being, you know, quite modern and is into things that, you know, girls, or girls in her community, shouldn’t be interested in.

Sarah:  Okay, I want to read that, like, right now.

[Laughter]

Sarah:  With the stories that you’re seeing, are there any that you, that have really stuck with you?  I mean, I know you, internally at Wattpad, I know you read a lot of what’s happening, and I know you’re challenged to write as well.  Are there any stories that you’ve read in this particular area that have really stuck with you, that you think, okay, this, this story is going to go somewhere; this is, this is going to be, this is going to become huge?

Ashleigh:  Yeah, well, you know, I, I think I have to say that about A Muslim’s Romantic Journey, that first one I mentioned?  I think –

Sarah:  Yeah.

Ashleigh:  – when I first started seeing it on the rise, I knew it was something that was different from what we’re seeing, and that’s part of what I’ve always loved about Wattpad stories is that they’re stories that you can’t find in a bookstore or that are different from what the industry says is popular, people should write about.  I think that we see new trends emerging, and this was one for me that really made an impression on me so much that I’m talking about this in every call-in and kind of meetings and presentations that I’ve been doing because it’s so, been so fascinating to watch how that’s changed and created an entire community on Wattpad.  While I think so many writers have been attracted to it anyway, I think that’s the one that really, because it became so popular and visible, I think that is a signal to other writers that this is a place for these stories, and this is where you will find your readers.

Sarah:  I think it’s fascinating that on one hand, you have so many very familiar elements in all of these stories – there’re very, very familiar tropes and power imbalances and dynamics of, you know, the billionaire and, and a staff member or a housekeeper or a maid or secretary, and there’s the arranged marriage and the fir-, the forced proximity and the, you know, try and keep people not too close to each other – all of these very familiar hooks in romance that, that are being set in a world that is so not represented anywhere else.  So you have this incredible familiarity in a, in a world that is mostly unfamiliar to most people who are looking at romance fiction from a business point of view.  It’s, it’s incredible.

Ashleigh:  Yeah, and the, part of it is, like, I, you’re more of an expert in this area too, but I’m curious at why it’s not being paid more attention to in the traditional industry from a business perspective, because there’s clearly an appetite for this that we’re seeing.

Sarah:  I honestly don’t know, and I think that conversation happens repeatedly as people discuss loudly and more frequently about the lack of diverse inclusion in the romance genre.  That, you know, romance is still very white and very straight and very cis and very Christian.  The thing is, well, why is it this way?  Why did it happen this way?  Why does it continue to happen this way?  Why is the default still white and straight and Christian, and, and why is this so very, very narrow and the world is so not for an individual writer who’s like, I have a story, I want to write it down, I could put it on Wattpad, and then there’s, there’s such a low barrier.  There’s nothing stopping that person from saying, yep, Muslim romance.  I’m ready.  Let’s do it.

Ashleigh:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  So you, you actually get to gauge an entirely different perspective of what’s popular, and, and it is so amazing, like, you ask a publishing person, like, what’s popular, and they’re going to tell you one thing, and you ask a self-published author and they’ll have another answer, and then you ask Wattpad and it’s, like, totally different over here!

Ashleigh:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  It’s amazing, ‘cause there’s so much difference in what’s, what’s being perceived as, as popular.  It’s amazing to me.  What other areas on Wattpad are you seeing growing like this?  Is this a very singular example, or are there other cultural or spiritual groups that are growing in popularity in terms of romance as well?

Ashleigh:  No, I think that you’ve mentioned a lot within that about diversity in romance and diversity in publishing and fiction in general, and I think that is something that we see a lot of on Wattpad for so many of the reasons that you mention.  I think that it’s becoming a place where people are writing their own stories for each other because they’re being ignored by the traditional industry.  I think we also see a lot of LGBT fiction from, from young people.  We see a lot of, we see a lot of fiction about body positivity.  That’s a theme that we see across romance.  There’s a fantastic writer that’s been writing some great chick-lit in that space, and, and those have been really interesting stories that we’ve seen come up, and we’re also seeing a lot of African-American fiction across lots of different genres.  Like, I think, like we’ve been saying about all of these trends, it’s not just one thing.  We’re seeing a lot of African-American fiction across romance, across fan fiction, across teen fiction, and particularly a genre that’s coming up that is kind of self-identified as urban fiction, which isn’t always necessarily the most positive light that so many of these communities like to kind of identify as or, or group around, but it’s a lot of, you know, gang stories or a lot of the rap industry and the music industry stories, and that is growing rapidly as well.  I think to a lesser extent than what we see in the spiritual category, if you look at the chick-lit category, I think we’re seeing a lot of those stories come up there.

Sarah:  Which is funny, because nobody talks about chick-lit, like, in the industry, in the publishing industry.  Not in the States anyway.

Ashleigh:  Yeah!  I think a lot of these categories are a bit more fluid on Wattpad?  I think when Wattpad had started, a lot of our category system was built on a lot of what other bookstores and book sites looked like, but as it’s grown and become not books and more social media in such a different way –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Ashleigh:  – we’re seeing other categories emerge, and so while these larger categories that people will identify their story within still exist, they don’t necessarily resemble what they look like in the traditional book industry.

Sarah:  So when you mention body positivity, what kinds of stories are within that area?

Ashleigh:  Some of it’s, are stories about women who don’t fit within the traditional ideas of what’s beautiful accepting themselves or finding love based on how they look and who they are.  There’s one that we’ve always seen be super popular, probably since about the time that I started working at Wattpad about three years ago, called The Curves Ahead that’s been an extremely popular story on our site.  But –

Sarah:  What a great title!

Ashleigh:  Yeah!  It’s a, it’s a really great story, and that one’s won a Wattpad award also, the same year that I just mentioned this other one.  I’m looking at the title now, and it was 2014 Wattpad Watty award winner, and, and it’s a fantastic story.  The writer’s called Blondeanddangerous, and we see lots of stories like this.

Sarah:  So basically, when you’re looking at your internal secret sauce of determining what’s on the Hot List, you’re seeing a lot of I, writers who are, who are effectively saying, I don’t see me, so I’m writing me, and I’m putting it here.

Ashleigh:  Yeah, absolutely.  I think that that’s what Wattpad’s always been about is, is telling your own story and finding the right audience for it, and I think that because it’s less transactional, it’s more about just being heard and listened to, because we’re not a retailer site, we are a place where people connect with their readers and, and post their stories, I think that that leads to stronger emotional connections and probably more exploration of some of these themes that no one is deciding aren’t commercial or aren’t being promoted.  It’s all kind of at an, an equal playing field.

Sarah:  That’s fascinating.  So my, my last question, as always, is what are you reading?  When you’re not reading Wattpad, what books are you reading, ‘cause I know you just flew all over the earth.

Ashleigh:  [Laughs] I have been reading a lot of Wattpad stories lately.  I think that there’ve been some really fun stories come up in the teen fiction category.  There’s a really great fantasy story that I just started reading called White Stag.  Off Wattpad, I’ve been, I loved You by Caroline Kepnes.  I, I haven’t picked up the sequel yet that just came out, Hidden Bodies, but I definitely will be reading that, and I’ve been hearing so much about this book, The Girls, that comes out by Emma Cline next month.  I’m really excited to read that.  I’ve been hearing about it since it was sold at Frankfurt a few years ago now –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Ashleigh:  – because there was so much buzz around it, so I’m really excited about reading that with everyone else.

Sarah:  Is it weird for you to go to publishing conferences in different countries and, and, is it weird to sort of translate your world to the publishing world?

Ashleigh:  I think that in some ways it is weird, and in some ways, there’re so many things that I think people need to learn about?  Like, the example that I always use is when so many people from the traditional publishing industry, and I think book publishers and self-publishers will make this mistake, is they’ll, they’ll upload a story to Wattpad, and the things that they’ll tag it with are industry terms like juvenile fiction –

[Laughter]

Ashleigh:  – and, you know, just educating them that nobody has ever searched that ever on our website, like, it’s just, like, I think thinking about how users and how readers act online and how they search and how search engine optimization works and how we structure things in ways for discovery are definitely things that the traditional industry should be interested in, and I think that when you see these trends and these appetites for stories, I think that’s also something that, yes, they should be interested in.  I think sometimes we tend to hear a response of, well, you know, what’s happening on Wattpad is so different from what’s happening in the traditional book industry, and I think that’s true, and I think that what we’ll see play out is whether or not it is those kind of first signals that they should be paying attention for or whether they are two different industries.  I think that what we’re seeing in some countries where Wattpad is bigger is that, you know, we, we are the sign of those early trends.  In the Philippines, publishers won’t even publish a story anymore unless they’ve seen it’s already popular on Wattpad, because they want to know that there is an audience there.  They don’t trust one editor to make that decision; they want to see what readers want to read.

Sarah:  And with using a platform like Wattpad, they have a lot of data as to what is actually being read and what, what people are looking for.

Ashleigh:  Absolutely, and I don’t mean to say that only means the most popular is, is what gets published or what we’d like to see either.  I think there’re also micro-trends that we see bubble up or, you know, one of the things that I’m always showing to people is we can see these stories that maybe are, don’t have as many readers or aren’t as popular, but look at how engaged, everyone that starts this, finishes this story, and doesn’t that show you that with some editorial promotion it could be one of these really sticky things to catch on.  So, I don’t know if you saw the announcement this week, but Wattpad has a new division called Wattpad Studios?  I’m head of partnerships in Wattpad Studios, and it means that my role is about bringing more Wattpad stories out into the world with film and entertainment and publishers, and making them grow on and off Wattpad.

Sarah:  That’s very cool!  Congratulations!  I did not realize that was you.  I, I’d heard about the, the, the Studios part; I didn’t realize that was you!  Way to go!

Ashleigh:  Yeah!  So Aron Levitz is the head of Wattpad Studios, and I’m working with a lot of our writers and the industry.

Sarah:  Whoa.  Do you think there’s more of an interest in publishing or in visual media?

Ashleigh:  I think it’s definitely a mix of both.  In some ways I think that for publishing it seems to make more sense.  What we have on Wattpad is stories.  It’s not a huge step to take those stories and bring them to books.

Sarah:  Yes.

Ashleigh:  But in some cases I think it’s kind of the chasm between the two that’s made entertainment so interested in Wattpad.  I think that story in general is the atomic unit that the entire entertainment industry deals with in –

Sarah:  Of course.

Ashleigh:  – and there’s a huge appetite for finding those great stories.  So we’re, we’re going to be announcing lots of great things that we’re doing in both the entertainment industry and the publishing industry in the next few months.

Sarah:  Wow.  That’s, that’s really cool!  Congratulations!

Ashleigh:  Thank you.

Sarah:  Is there anything else that you would want to mention about Wattpad, or anything else that’s going on that you want to tell people about?

Ashleigh:  Yeah, well, I think, just to give a, a sense of the numbers, because I know we didn’t really talk about that at the beginning, Wattpad is continuing to grow so fast.  We’re growing at a rate of about 120,000 new users signed up each day, which –

Sarah:  That’s a lot.

Ashleigh:  Yes!  It’s more than a new user every second, which is fantastic.  I think that to understand how much time people are spending reading stories on Wattpad, they’re spending fifteen billion minutes a month, those users collectively, which again is just, if you’re looking to reach readers on their mobile devices, Wattpad really is the place for that.  And –

[Laughter]

Sarah:  And, and people say teenagers don’t read.  [Laughs]

Ashleigh:  Absolutely!  Oh, I’m still mad at that article a few months ago, but …

Sarah:  It was so ludicrous!

Ashleigh:  [Laughs] I think it’s about how you ask them, do they read?  Like, when you look at how that question in that study was actually posed, it was do you read books?

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Ashleigh:  And I’m sure if you asked teens today, do you use a camera?  Most of them would say no, like, when’s the last time they used a digital camera or film?  But they’re taking, you know, millions of pictures with their phones each month, and I think that it’s a similar thing with what they’re reading.  Even when we see, a, a lot of people don’t consider what they read on Wattpad as books.  They’re reading what a friend in their class, the fanfiction they wrote about One Direction, or they’re writing their own stories, or they’re reading something that, you know, a writer in Italy who speaks English is sharing with the world, and they see it more as social connection in the same way that they follow YouTubers rather than reading a book.

Sarah:  The whole idea that teens don’t read when there is so much time interacting with text that’s spent in a day is just baffling to me.  Like –

[Laughter]

Sarah:  – of course if you ask the question, do you read books?  Well, that, that brings up a specific image, but do you read text all day?  Do you prefer text to dealing with people?  I would totally say yes to that!  Are you kidding me?  I would read all day!

[Laughter]

Ashleigh:  And so much of the reason that I think Wattpad has become so popular, especially with young people, is that there’s also never been a time where people are writing more.  Like, yes, that might be more emails and more blog posts and more texts, but this level of literacy and communication and how important that is for young people today, I think that there’s never been a generation as prepared to write an entire book or write something full-length and, and want to share it with their friends in the world than ever before.

Sarah:  And there’s an increasingly common language that more and more people are learning English and other languages just to be able to write in them.

Ashleigh:  Yes.  Yeah, absolutely.  I think that we see a trend on Wattpad of people wanting to practice their language skills by offering to translate stories for other writers, so that’s another thing that takes a lot of money and a lot of time in the traditional industry, where people are just doing it for passion on Wattpad.

Sarah:  That’s incredible.

[music]

Sarah:  Are you ready for some two hundredth episode voicemail?  I am!  So let’s go!

Hayden:  Hi, this is Hayden from Pennsylvania.  I was calling to let you know my first romance novel I ever read at the age of thirteen was Key of Light by Nora Roberts, and it started me on a journey up until now.  I’m twenty-five, and I’m reading romance, and I love it.  I’ve been loving it ever since I was thirteen.  Thanks so much.  Bye.

Sarah:  I have to say, I am not sure if the actual number of people who were brought into the romance genre by Nora Roberts could be calculated using known methods of math.  Like, I know a lot of readers came in through Sweet Valley High or Sweet Dreams.  I was definitely a Sweet Valley High gateway reader, and I know a lot of readers discovered romance through Silhouette and Harlequin, and I think there’s, like, a huge division of just Nora Roberts readers.  Like, these are the people who stumbled into a Nora and went, oh!  Well, look at that!  So thank you for calling.  This, this has given me a lot to think about.  I think that’s so cool.  Also, that’s a really good book.

ScifiGirl1986:  Hi, this is, this is ScifiGirl1986, and I wanted to congratulate you on two hundred episodes.  I first started reading romance novels the tail end of my freshman year of high school back in 2001, and that first book, I always thought it was called Her Private Bodyguard, but apparently it was not.  It was actually the second book in Amanda Stevens’ Gallagher Justice series, and from that point on I actually wouldn’t stop reading.  I think the most time I spent not reading was maybe two days, and that wasn’t the book that made the biggest impact on me, though.  I, there are two of those.  The first was Harry Potter, because everyone of my generation had to read Harry Potter, and the other was Three Fates by Nora Roberts, which is actually my favorite book, and it made me realize that it’s not just straight contemporaries anymore, that you can actually have fantasy and, and more than one hero and heroine, and I actually just finished listening to it again, so it’s probably about my tenth time.  You know, once again, just wanted to say congratulations, and I hope you have, I hope to hear two hundred more episodes, at least.

Sarah:  Hey, ScifiGirl, that’s awesome!  Thank you!  I would love to have two hundred more episodes too.  I, well, I’m not going to record them all at once – I would lose my voice – but thank you!  That’s so great.  It, it is so cool to know how much people love the podcast and how much, how much we’re all connected by all of these different books.  [Laughs] The first thing I thought of when you said that, the longest period of time I went without reading was two days, my first thought was, oh, my God, were you sick?  Because I know for me, when I’m stressed, the first thing that happens is I stop reading, and then I’m like, oh, why are you constantly refreshing this website?  You need to go decompress and read something, like, really, really enjoyable.  Then I head for the special folder of, these are your restorative books.  It’s like restorative yoga in literary form.

I also had no plans that there would be two Nora Roberts mentions in a row, y’all.  That was not on purpose, but like I said, there’re a lot of people who discover Nora and go, oh!  You can do all of these things!

And I have never heard of the Gallagher Justice, but now I have to look it up, and of course if you’re listening and you’re thinking but, but, but I’m driving or on the treadmill or I’m driving on the treadmill, I can’t write this down, don’t worry, they’re all going to be in the podcast entry.  If you didn’t know that, I write all the book titles down, and usually I remember all of them, and I link to them, so don’t worry.

And if you would like to call in and tell us about the book that made you a romance reader, I would totally dig hearing about it.  You can call 1-201-371-3272 and leave a message.  Google Voice is actually pretty cool, and if my phone is ringing and I’m nearby, I have the option to either send it to voicemail or start the voicemail and then join the call, and I thought, oh, my gosh, if I do that to somebody I’m going to freak them out, so don’t worry that I’m going to show up in the middle of your voicemail and scare the hell out of you, but I love hearing from you, and if you want to tell us about the book that turned you into a romance reader, I want to hear about it, so give us a call.

And I have an email from a reader who didn’t want to call, and I totally understand, so this is from Theresa.

Dear Sarah and the Bitches, [SW:  And that’s totally my new band name, by the way]

Since I hate the sound of my voice on recording I’m going to send this in via email.

The books that first got me hooked were by Eva Ibbotson.  Before I had read books for teen audiences which featured romantic interests, but none of them stuck to me like Ibbotson’s, because those were REAL NOVELS FOR ADULTS.  A Countess Below Stairs featured a countess (who would have guessed) from Russia, who had to flee with her family during the first world war and ends up working as a housemaid in the English countryside, where the lord of the manor is charming, poor and also affianced to a rich and beautiful heiress.  Funnily enough now I don’t like books where the protagonists are not single, but the engagement gets resolved in a pretty hilarious manner, the supporting cast is charming and while I might not be too impressed with the hero today (don’t string the other woman along, man!), I have reread that book more times than I could count.  The other Ibbotson book which stuck with me even more was A Company of Swans.  It is about a young English girl whose biggest dream it is to be a ballet dancer.  And she does it (competence porn!), follows a dance company to South America (great world building!) and meets an aristocratic but impoverished, now self-made man.  This book was a lot more heart wrenching, because it also has a big misunderstanding, but it just got me hooked.  I have not reread those books in the last few years; I might need to again.  I also did not own them myself, but every time I went to my town library and needed a comfort read, I would pick one of those up. 

Then came the glory that was Georgette Heyer and her massive backlist.  The books were out of print in Germany at that time and my Mom had a few, but had gotten rid of the ones which were in bad shape (Who does something like that!?).

Sarah:  [Laughs] Okay, your parentheses are awesome, Teresa.

So when I wrote them on my Christmas List, my uncle got a whole crate of them on eBay for me.  Back then my favorite was Arabella; now it is Venetia.  I still reread those whenever I need a comfort read.

Sarah:  Now, Teresa has also sent a picture that she has asked me not to share on the website because it’s too embarrassing, but I have to tell you about it because it’s adorable.  She sent a picture of herself at about fourteen in her fancy pink pajamas the Christmas that she got the big box of Heyer – she calls it the Heyer box – during the holidays, and it’s a 1966 edition of Heyer’s The Corinthian, but the German title is Penelope und der Dandy, which is the best title!  Why is that not on all of the books?  This is another one of those books, she says, where stealing boy’s clothes miraculously works out.  Oh, this letter made me happy, and I’m completely understanding why you don’t want to put a picture of yourself at age fourteen in pajamas on the Internet, but seriously, thank you for sending me that picture.  It’s adorable, and you are very adorable, and eee!  I love this letter so much!

It is so amazing to me how there, there are historicals where I’m like, yeah, sure, absolutely.  My butt won’t fit in a twelve-year-old boy’s pants, but I’ll believe that of this heroine in this book.  Sure, why not?  But Heyer, such comfort reads for so many readers.  I have a deep love of all of my abridged audiobooks read by Richard Armitage, just because Richard Armitage plus Georgette Heyer, it is all good.  So thank you for emailing me with the books that made you a romance reader and for including a very cute picture.

[music]

Sarah:  And that is all for this week’s podcast.  Thank you very much for tuning in.  I will be back next week with more discussion about romances and the women who read them and write them, because that’s kind of what we do here, but first and foremost, I’ve got some compliments to give out, because people who supported the Patreon at a certain level get entirely heartfelt and very random compliments, and these are a lot of fun to create, so get ready.  Here we go:

Beth A.:  You make people want to Scooby-Doo, the Hustle, the Mambo, and the Bus Stop.  There’s a lot of dancing that you inspire.

To Melissa S.:  Without you around, things are definitely not as awesome and definitely not as bright or as good-smelling.

To Amy H.:  You are kind-hearted, inspiring, and a terrific cook.

To Carisa W.:  You smell better than everything, including bakeries, hot chocolate, and clean laundry.

And to Susan L:  You have the best sense of humor, and you make people laugh effortlessly.

If you’re wondering what the heck is going on, have a look at Patreon.com/SmartBitches, and you can take a look at our campaign to support the podcast.  If you have done so, I am very, very thankful.

This podcast was brought to you by New York Times bestselling author Victoria Danann.  She would like to introduce you to the unique and delightful Witches of Wimberley series, a contemporary paranormal romance about witches living among humans in the small magical town of Wimberley, Texas.  Willem is a bright and light-hearted read featuring a reluctant groom, a beguiling heroine, and a lot of fun, and when you’re done you’re going to wish you lived in Wimberley too.

The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater.  This is Peatbog Faeries.  This is from their album Blackhouse, and this track is called “The Ranch.”  I will have links to the album and the song if you’re thinking that this might be music you wish to have in your permanent collection because, well, it’s pretty rad, right?  I mean, I dig it.

And if you would like to call us and leave a voicemail with your book or books that turned you into a romance reader, I would love to hear from you.  You can call 1-201-371-3272.  I love hearing from you guys, and I think it is so cool to hear all of the different books that brought us into the genre, and I also have the suspicion that when romance readers get together, even if we have absolutely nothing else in common, we could probably talk about books for at least six years.  I can’t promise I’ll do a podcast for six years, but it would be really fun if I did!  So if you want to call 1-201-371-3272, leave us a voicemail, tell me about the book that made you into a romance reader.  And if it was Nora Roberts, I’ll be really, really excited but not very surprised.

But in the meantime, on behalf of Ashleigh Gardner and myself and everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading.  Have a great weekend.

[fun music]