553. Improv Improving Your Writing with Kelly Farmer

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 553 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and my guest today is Kelly Farmer. This was originally episode number 537. This is an episode that I didn’t run due to the HarperCollins union strike. Kelly and I recorded this episode in October 2022 in anticipation of her book Calling the Shots, and I’ve held onto the episode. Now that the strike is settled I can release it, and I am very excited to share this with you.

I want to thank Kelly Farmer for her understanding and for her support of the HarperCollins union strike. Kelly is the author of the Out on the Ice series of hockey romances and a former improvisational actor, so we’re going to talk about how improv exercises and techniques influence and improve writing. So if you’re stuck with your writing project, maybe this will help! Also, I learned to say Megan Rapinoe’s name correctly, which is a win for everyone involved.

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Are you ready to get started with this show? The correct answer is “Yes, and…” [Laughs] Yes, and we’re going to do a podcast about improv! On with the podcast.

[music]

Kelly Farmer: Hello, everyone! [Laughs] My name is Kelly Farmer, and I am the author of queer contemporary romance. It’s mostly Sapphic or Women Loving Women. I currently have the Out on the Ice series available. It is set in the women’s professional hockey world. The first two books are out now. It’s, Unexpected Goals came out last year – that was the second book – and the first book that started it all off is called Out on the Ice! And then the third book in the series, Calling the Shots, is coming out on November 15th!

Sarah: Excellent! Out on the Ice is the one with the Megan Rapinoe lookalike on the cover, right?

Kelly: Yes! God bless that cover model stock image model person gal? Funny, though, when I, like, first saw the, like, original cover concept, it showed up on my inbox at work, and, like, I clicked on it and I literally screamed out loud, Oh my God, it’s Megan Rapinoe! [Laughs]

Sarah: I’ve been saying her name wrong for years! Oh my gosh! [Laughs]

Kelly: I, I did too.

Sarah: Thank you! [Laughs] Thank you for that!

Kelly: I did too when I was, I, I’m with you. I also said RAPinoe. I said, like, everything but RaPInoe?

Sarah: Yeah. Well, this is what happens when I read a word without hearing it? I don’t listen to a lot of sports coverage ‘cause talking is very distracting for me. I read most things, so if I read it then I just assume my brain is right! So thank you! [Laughs] You must have been beside yourself when you saw the cover.

Kelly: It was really cool. So when it’s your debut novel you never quite know what you’re going to get –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – and you just, you’ve been dreaming of a cover for a long time in my case, and it, it was just very cool to, to see. Actually, here’s a fun fact: on the cover originally, like, she has purple hair going down the middle –

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Kelly: – but she was completely bald, like, on the sides. It wasn’t like an undercut; it was, she was bald! And, like –

Sarah: Whoa!

Kelly: – it was very, like, BALD and didn’t fit the character, so the, the cover artist actually, like, drew in hair.

Sarah: No way!

Kelly: Yeah. It –

Sarah: Oh, that’s so –

Kelly: You can’t tell at all.

Sarah: You can’t tell at all! That’s so funny!

And now you have an illustrated cover for Calling the Shots.

Kelly: Yeah!

Sarah: Was that a marketing decision?

Kelly: I think it was on, you know, my, I’m published with Carina Press and, you know, they, they make those decisions ‘cause they know the market.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: I had, you know, they had been doing some really cute illustrated covers, and I was sort of like, oh, if that’s the direction you want to go, I’m not going to say no! Like, I’ve, I’ve loved those covers since they were first popular like –

Sarah: Ages ago!

Kelly: – like back in the day when chick lit was –

Sarah: Yes.

Kelly: – an actual term that publishers used? And, so I always kind of wanted one, and so when I saw that this one was illustrated I got very, very excited, ‘cause –

Sarah: It’s cute! It’s very cute!

Kelly: It’s very cute! I love that there’s a woman in a suit on it because that’s, one of the cool things in this book is they’re both rival head coaches, so I get to have a lot of women in suits, and, let’s be honest, that women in suits is like –

Sarah: Oh, women in suits –

Kelly: – that’s an okay thing.

Sarah: Women in suits is awesome!

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: At my, at my sister-in-law’s wedding, I was a bridesmaid. This was in 2019 – for the record, I’m too old to be a bridesmaid – and my husband was a groomsman, and in order to sort of break the ice at the reception and to be very silly, before we were introduced with all the bridal party we went upstairs and switched clothes. So he put on my bride-, my bridesmaid’s dress, and I put on his tux, and I did not want to give it back! It was comfy; I looked great; I had pockets for years, a year’s worth of – I could have just packed up everything I brought in the suit, it had so many pockets. I did not want to give it back.

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: I love suits; suits are awesome!

Kelly: Yeah, and, you know, yeah, like a fancy suit? A woman in a tux suit is just –

Sarah: A vest? Oh yes.

Kelly: Oh, well, I have to say Tierney, one of the, one of the main characters in the, in Calling the Shots likes to wear three-piece suits, which drives –

Sarah: Excellent!

Kelly: – Regan rather crazy, so –

Sarah: Yeah, I bet. I bet.

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: So tell me what people will find inside Calling the Shots! What is your sort of pitch for this book?

Kelly: It is a sweet second-chance-ish romance. It’s, as I said, between rival pro women’s hockey coaches. We have Regan Lane, who is a former superstar player. So you would say she’s the Megan Rapinoe of women’s hockey. Like, she’s very outspoken, has always been pushing for equity in women’s athletics, and we of course have to pair her up with somebody who is an ice queen. So I have Tierney McGovern, who is, she’s a single mom. She has some serious trust issues, so she likes to keep everyone at bay, which of course has Regan wanting to bust down that wall and just like, I’m just going to charm you until – [laughs] – until the wall comes down. There’s also cameos from the characters in the first two books in the series. I have to bring back the, the, the former couples to see how they’re doing.

Sarah: Obviously.

Kelly: And, and there’s also a lot of TV show references.

Sarah: They watch a lot of TV, do they?

Kelly: Well, I, I do, so –

[Laughter]

Kelly: – so I had to throw in some, like, Ted Lasso references, Wynonna Earp, Legends of Tomorrow; it’s kind of kitchen sink.

Sarah: So why do you think hockey is such a popular romance setting? I know so many people that are into hockey romance, I have staff reviewers who absolutely love it, and I’ve noticed that hockey is a setting for all of the various pairings, whether it’s hetero or Sapphic or queer or pan. Hockey is a really popular setting, and usually, like, when I look at the genre after sort of thinking about it for years now, I can usually come up with a theory like, oh, it makes sense; that’s popular because of this. I have no theory about hockey. I cannot figure it out? Like, I’m glad it is, I don’t have a problem with it, but I’m always curious. Since you write in the genre, why do you think hockey is a popular romance setting, and why did you pick it?

Kelly: I think, like, as an overall why it’s popular would be that hockey players are really tough. I mean –

Sarah: That’s true. There’s an in-built strength there, isn’t it?

Kelly: I, I would say, you know, and certainly not to disparage any other sport, ‘cause every, every athlete can kick my butt –

[Laughter]

Kelly: – but, like, hockey players, you know, they’ll, like, take a puck to the face and be like, stitch me up; I’ve got to go back. They’ll break their leg; they’ll play on, like, you know, sprained, strained things and broken appendages, and they’ll just keep playing, and that’s just, you know, like, they are, they are tough. Doesn’t matter if you’re a man or a woman or nonbinary; like, they are tough players.

Sarah: That’s true!

Kelly: And I also think that the team, the team mentality and the camaraderie is really, really strong in hockey. Like, you know, being a team player, standing up for your teammates, you know, like, I mean there’s, there’s fighting in professional men’s hockey. Like, that’s how madly they stick up for each other. [Laughs]

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: So there’s that. Not only is the mentality there of, like, Well, yeah, we’re all in this together; we’re a family? But in terms of romance, whenever you set anything on a team you, like, instantly give yourself a series.

Sarah: That’s true: sequel bait all the way down.

Kelly: Yeah! ‘Cause, I mean, you introduce book one with, like, hey, here’s this group!

Sarah: Yep!

Kelly: Then you introduce some characters, and then of course, like, as a writer, there’s always that character who just kind of like bursts onto the scene –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – and is, like, so!

Sarah: Yes.

Kelly: Here I am!

Sarah: And it’s fun to write them, and their dialogue just comes so easily, and they just chew on the scenery! Yeah, mm-hmm.

Kelly: Yeah. And then, of course, that’s the one you go, well, I guess you’re going to need a book, huh?

Sarah: Yeah, all right, well, I guess you’re next.

Kelly: [Laughs] Yeah. Yeah, so for me, why I wanted to write in women’s hockey is because it’s, that it’s not represented very much in romance.

Sarah: No.

Kelly: I, I did a deep dive, you know, on Amazon and googled, and I think I’ve come up with like less than twenty.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Kelly: Period. So we definitely need more, so if you’re a writer listening to this, please write women hockey players. We need more of them, and, you know, in terms of, like, female/female romance, it happens all the time in real life.

Sarah: Oh yeah, half the Canadian hockey team has married the American hockey team; they just keep getting married.

Kelly: They do! And it’s adorable, and –

Sarah: It’s so cute!

Kelly: – their stories are cute, and also, like, particularly since there’s a lot of cross-border romances, there’s such a huge rivalry between the Canadian women’s hockey team and the American women’s hockey team – yeah, just a tiny bit.

Sarah: Just a bit, yeah.

Kelly: But it’s, I mean, it’s, it’s such an interesting dynamic ‘cause, like, they all know each other; they work together at, you know, colleges or universities or at hockey camps, so they all know each other?

Sarah: It’s not a big world, is it?

Kelly: Yeah! Like, it’s such a comingled world –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – like, outside of the national teams?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: But then, like, once you get to the national teams it’s like, we are enemies; we hate each other.

[Laughter]

Kelly: It’s like, bye, honey; I’ll see you in a month! Love you! Gonna kill you on the ice!

Sarah: Yep. For this season, we hate each other. Then we’ll move in again after the season’s over and it’ll be fine. [Laughs]

Kelly: Yeah, yeah. So that’s a dynamic that I’m like, wow! I mean, that one, that was actually the very first idea that I had was like, ooh, it should be a cross-border romance, but that ended up being the second book in the series, Unexpected Goals?

Sarah: Yeah?

Kelly: Is a Canadian goalie and an American forward, and they had a very public clash at the 2018 Olympics, and so then of course they become teammates in the women’s pro league and –

Sarah: Awkward!

Kelly: Yeah, real awkward! [Laughs]

Sarah: And, and that is a very familiar trope. Like, we had a conflict elsewhere, and now we have to work together. That is very common. I don’t know if there’s a shorthand word for that, but that’s very, very common, and you’re right! Creating hockey players as characters comes with a unique skill set, a very small world in terms of the sport itself, and then just, there’s an in-built strength: these are very strong people who go very fast and do a very hard sport.

Kelly: Yeah, I mean, just imagine – like, I learned how to play hockey as an adult. Like, a lot of people have asked me, Oh, do you play hockey? And I always have to say –

Sarah: Well –

Kelly: – in the most basic sense of the word, yes. I can technically play it, but, like, I could ice skate pretty well and I played floor hockey for a number of years, so I could do both of them separately –

Sarah: [Laughs] 

Kelly: – but, like, when you put them together it’s hard! Like –

Sarah: Oh, it’s very hard! Very, very hard.

Kelly: – your feet are going this way, the puck is going that way, and you’re like, Oh, oh, wait, wait, wait! I can’t get to it! And it’s, it’s hard! So, like, they’re basically doing everything other athletes do, but on ice.

Sarah: Yep! And it’s very fast. Like, you, your reaction, the reaction time of hockey players on the ice is just off the charts fast.

Kelly: Yeah. It’s, you know, there’s just so much to pay attention to, and you never quite know where the puck is going to bounce.

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: You know, like, it, it, you know, can take one funny bounce, and then just boink!

Sarah: I’m always impressed when I watch hockey, ‘cause I grew up in Pittsburgh, so – and I grew up in the, in Pittsburgh in the ‘90s –

Kelly: Oh yeah.

Sarah: – when the Penguins were at the very top, and if it wasn’t football it was hockey. I was always impressed that the cameraman could find the puck.

Kelly: I know, right?

Sarah: How do you – I can’t see it; how do you see it? You’ve got a big camera in front of your face; how are you doing – ? I, I’ve always been impressed that the camera can find it, let alone the players. [Laughs]

Kelly: I am super, super impressed with the commentators.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kelly: Especially like play-by-play?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: And they’re just like, this guy to this guy to this guy, and it’s like, wow! How, how –

Sarah: How?

Kelly: – are you doing that? [Laughs]

Sarah: Right? And also, like, the numbers are blurry for me, sir. I can’t see the numbers –

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: – how do you see them? It’s incredible.

Now, you mentioned when you emailed me that you use acting and improv techniques in your writing, and I think this is so very cool. How did your background in acting influence and inform your writing?

Kelly: Well, it was funny; when I, like, sat down as a grownup to, like, write a book –

[Laughter]

Kelly: – for realsies this time?

Sarah: Which is, you know, yeah.

Kelly: For realsies; not the, like, the ones I started in junior high?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: I, I’ve realized kind of as I was doing it that I was using a lot of the same basic character work that actors do. There’s, there’s just a ton of overlap because, you know, you’re creating worlds and people? And so I think that the biggest one is probably motivation.

Sarah: Mmm!

Kelly: Like, why is my character doing this?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: And as an actor you have to take the text and decide why is this character behaving this way, or saying this, or doing this? And even things like when you enter or exit a scene you have to enter with purpose.

Sarah: Yes!

Kelly: That’s like, you can’t just wander on – like, you have to be entering the stage or the screen for a reason.

Sarah: Yes, absolutely.

Kelly: See, in terms of writing, that helps with, Why is this character in this scene? [Laughs] Does this character need to be in this scene? I have a problem with a lot of too many characters in my scenes, so –

Sarah: You got a whole team!

Kelly: I got a whole team.

Sarah: You got a whole team, and you’ve got to know –

Kelly: You’re setting yourself up –

Sarah: – all their motivations.

Kelly: Yeah, you’re setting yourself up for some headaches when you write team sport books. You know, they’re, I think the character work is a big part of it, but then there’s also just the, the little things like blocking in terms of, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: – I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a play or like a movie or TV show where, if you just sit there and talk to each other, that’s very boring.

Sarah: Oh, yes.

Kelly: So you have to, yeah, you have to, like, get up and move around, you know, which is like –

Sarah: [Laughs] Yeah.

Kelly: – and in, in, in the-, in theater, you know, like in rehearsals and stuff, sometimes you’d just be sitting there a long time, and if you’re working with a good director, you can turn to the director and be like, Can I get up here? Like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – I feel like I need to get up! I’m –

Sarah: There needs to be some sort of dynamic presence in addition to the words. Yes, absolutely.

Kelly: Yeah, and there’s also things like levels? Like who has the power in this scene? In terms of, if two people are sitting, you’re equal, but if one is standing and one is sitting? Then the standing person has the power. And, you know, little things – props, setting. Yeah, like – [laughs] – making sure my characters aren’t existing in a void.

Sarah: I mean, seems, seems important.

Kelly: Yeah, it, it is, and that’s certainly something – I, I love writing dialogue; like, dialogue, for me, is my jam, so –

Sarah: Oh yeah, me too.

Kelly: – I’ll write it like a screenplay and then go back and be like, now where are they? [Laughs] I should maybe mention this is a kitchen!

Sarah: I remember reading, I think it was an author, I think it was Jim Hines, rereading one of his oldest books that he – maybe a story that he wrote like in high school or something – and I remember him saying on Twitter as he was rereading and critiquing his own work, It’s like my characters are just walking around on a whiteboard. There’s just nothing there. They’re just two stick figures in a whiteboard having a conversation, and I’m like, Oh yeah, I’ve totally read things like that. I’ve written things like that.

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: But, but it’s interesting when you, when you think about the motivation and the action of characters in terms of acting, the setting and the set are part of the world, and so as a writer you have to include that too. Oh that’s, I hadn’t even thought of it that way, but it’s absolutely true.

Kelly: Yeah, and for certain books, the setting becomes another character.

Sarah: Oh, it’s my favorite thing!

Kelly: Yeah!

Sarah: So what improv techniques do you use with your writing? What are some of the improv exercises that have really helped your writing? I think that is such an interesting idea, and definitely is going to create a more dynamic dialogue, for sure.

Kelly: For sure! I know it’s funny, and over the years I’ve talked to, ‘cause a lot of writers do have, like, acting or theater of creative people backgrounds, and a lot of have said we, we all do these things. We all use the same techniques, so it’s kind of funny that, that we’re, we’re all out there using this, this knowledge that we, we gained to make our books even better.

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: As far as improv, there’s, there’s three basic rules in improv. They are don’t ask questions, no saying No –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: – and stay in the present moment. And so for the don’t ask questions, to, to give you some Improv 101 –

Sarah: Yes, please!

Kelly: [Laughs] – it’s, the reason why that’s like a no-no is because it puts the onus on your partner?

Sarah: Ah, yes. They have to come up with the motivation; you’re asking them to inform you.

Kelly: Yeah, and it’s also, it’s, it’s, it’s just rude, let’s be honest, ‘cause, ‘cause if we were improv-ing a scene and I was like, Hi, Sarah! How are you? What did you have for breakfast? Did you have coffee? Was it iced or cold? Did you buh-buh-duh, duh-duh-duh? And it makes you be like, uh, uh, uh, uh, and –

Sarah: Well, that’s not a conversation; that’s an interview. I do those all the time! [Laughs]

Kelly: Yeah! Yeah! And this is a great way to ask questions, ‘cause, you know, we’re ha-, we’re having a conversation this way, but –

Sarah: Yes!

Kelly: – if, if you’re trying to, you know – [laughs] – do an improv scene, this is not so cool. So instead, it, it’s about being a team player – and to go back to hockey – it’s being a team player, helping your scene partner, and also, and, and you’re, you give them an opportunity to offer information to you, which you can then take and work with. Improv is all about, like, an energy exchange and, like, we’re help, we’re here helping each other. I know when I first started writing I, like, had my vision, and I kept trying to, like, shove them back into the, like, but this is the story! Come back, get – shoving you into story I want to tell.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: And then I finally learned that they’re not going to listen to me –

Sarah: Nope.

Kelly: – so, nah, I’m just going to let them go.

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: Go, tell, tell me your story. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes. And when you’ve created characters with strong individual voices, which I’m assuming that improv is going to help you do, then they are going to be able to inform you of their own motivations ‘cause you’ve created them with a strong voice.

Kelly: Yes, and they do!

Sarah: Oh yeah. I’ve had this experience.

Kelly: [Laughs] Yes. They get very –

Sarah: It, it’s very weird.

Kelly: They get very vocal sometimes!

Sarah: Yes! And it’s like okay, why isn’t this scene working? Why can’t I move forward? Why isn’t this working? Well, because these people wouldn’t do that! And they’re mad that they, you – so back up, right? Or, or switch POV –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – or do something to disrupt the dynamic that I got stuck in. Yeah.

Kelly: Yeah, absolutely.

So the second one, for no saying No? Basically, saying No just instantly puts a stop to something. This, you know, it’s like, Oh, let’s go to the park! No. Okay, great. Thanks for that. [Laughs] This is kind of where if, if you’ve heard of, like, the, Yes, and… approach?

Sarah: Yes, and… yes. Mm-hmm.

Kelly: You know, where it’s like, Let’s go to the park! Yes, and we’ll have a picnic! Yes, and we will look at the clouds and make animals out of them. It, it keeps the, moves the scene forward, moves the action forward. I actually, I honestly use this one in real life quite a bit, in terms of saying Yes, and… I used to be a real Negative Nelly in my youth, and I realized when, you know, you start saying Yes, and… like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – it just kind of opens up your world.

Sarah: It builds a more positive interaction because you’re not contradicting, and it’s really interesting because I think that, especially with social media, we are conditioned to disagree and debate and barter in our conversations, and sometimes I just want to be like –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – yes, that’s so cool! Tell me more.

Kelly: Yeah, and that’s, that’s a great approach. It’s, like, like you’re saying, it opens doors; it, it’s a more positive spin, ‘cause, you know, like you’re saying, with, with kids, you know, Mom, can we go do this? No, we can’t today. Like, whereas, Well, I’d love to do that; can we do that on Saturday?

Sarah: Yes! I would love to do this. Let’s pick a time where, you know, I’m not making dinner and trying to feed the dog and trying to do all this other stuff, but yes, absolutely, let’s figure this out.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah! So that one’s, that’s a good, a good real-life one, but it’s also really good for writing too, because, you know, I, I think it almost ties into the first one of like, Okay, you want to, you want to go there, characters? Okay!

Sarah: All right!

Kelly: Like, all right! Let’s – we’re going to talk about that now. Like in something I’ve been recently working on, which is a little bit of a secret, so I can’t talk about it, but – [laughs] – but, you know, I have these sibling characters who just started riffing on dirty, dirty jokes, and I was like, Okay, this is your relationship. Like, I love this for you.

[Laughter]

Kelly: So, like, that, that just became a lot of fun, and it was just something that was like, okay, we’re going this direction. Didn’t know that was your relationship, but okay!

Sarah: That’s how it is! Okey-dokey!

Kelly: Yeah! And then the third one, that’s stay in the present moment, this is a really good one for writing because it helps you not wander into Backstory Land or info-dumping?

Sarah: Ohhh yes. As you know, Bob!

Kelly: Yes. Yeah. The, you know, it’s, it’s – ‘cause we’re so excited about these characters that we’ve made up, and we’ve made up their whole life stories, and we really want to tell you about that time in fifth grade.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: But, you know, and, but the present moment of your story is, like, you know, some action-adventure story where someone’s dangling off a cliff, like, maybe don’t talk about remembering fifth grade. You know, you do have to, like, dip a toe into backstory –

Sarah: Yes.

Kelly: – and so it helps me, like, look through and be like, okay, have I gotten too far out of the present moment? Like –

Sarah: Yes. Absolutely.

Kelly: – how is this information relevant to the present moment?

Sarah: Does this, does this need to be said? Does this need to be said now? Does this need to be said –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – by this character?

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: Absolutely.

Sarah: That’s really interesting!

Kelly: Yes!

Sarah: And it, and it seems like using improv techniques when you’re developing character both, it takes care of so many things at the same time. It builds character backstory for you, ‘cause of motivation; it builds a, an active, dynamic scene in the present; and it creates conversation, and as a person who likes to read all the dialogue – hello! – that is the best part! It’s like I’m eavesdropping on interesting people talking about interesting things!

Kelly: Yeah! I, I love writing dialogue too. I love reading the dialogue. [Laughs] I love all of the dialogue!

Sarah: Oh yeah. I, I love looking at older things that I’ve written, and I’m like, my God this is a lot of paragraphs of exposition. When are these people going to start talking? [Laughs]

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, that’s one of those, you know, the hints they tell you, like look for the indents –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kelly: – you know. If, if you don’t see a lot of indents in, on your page –

Sarah: Not a lot of dialogue, nope.

Kelly: Yeah. There’s a lot of paragraphs happening there. [Laughs]

Sarah: And it’s interesting, because the current trends in romance, there’s a really big group of people that love first person? And sometimes first person present, and then there’s people who like third person or third person very close, where you’re in third person, but you know all of that person’s, you know, arteries and veins and stuff. And the people, the people who read them sometimes have very strong feelings about one over the other, and I have to say, if the dialogue is good, I stop noticing. You know?

Kelly: Yeah! Yeah. You know, for me, I’m kind of the same way. Like, I, I’m a big believer in a story needs to be told the way it needs to be told, whatever –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – whatever that is, and, you know, yeah, if it’s told in a compelling way, if the dialogue is good –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: – if, if it’s not wandering into, like you said, into internal thoughts while you’re in a conversation?

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: Like –

Sarah: So what books are you reading that you want to tell people about?

Kelly: I am just finishing up the Black Love Matters anthology?

Sarah: Oooh! How are you liking it?

Kelly: Oh my God. I, honestly, it needs to be required reading –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – for everyone in Romancelandia, like, period. I, I have learned a lot; I have felt a lot. The – so Jessica Pryde is the, like, editor of it –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: – and they just did a great job having a lot of different backgrounds and experiences and, you know, people from all walks of life in their personal lives, as well as their publishing lives. It’s really good. It’s really good! It’s, I just want everyone to read this book. Please read this book.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: Romancelandia will become a thousand times better if everyone reads this book.

Sarah: I get it! I absolutely get it!

Kelly: I’m also –

Sarah: Keep going!

Kelly: – currently, I’m currently reading Satisfaction Guaranteed –

Sarah: Ooh!

Kelly: – by Karelia Stetz-Waters. Yeah, I’m, I’m always very behind on books. So – [laughs] – so I finally got to this one. I’m enjoying it quite a bit. There is a very strong opposites attract, grumpy/sunshine thing happening, which is a lot of fun, and there’s some, there’s some fun secondary characters, so I’m, I’m enjoying that one.

And I will, I will give a plug also for a recent finish. If you’re, if you’re looking for a holiday-ish book that’s, it’s definitely set during, like, Thanksgiving/Christmas, but it’s not like Christmas vomit?

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Kelly: It’s –

Sarah: Christmas vomit.

Kelly: – Seashells and Sleigh Bells by Jennie Davids? And it came out last year, and it’s just, it’s like a warm hug.

Sarah: Aw!

Kelly: It’s a, it’s a really sweet book, and I loved the ending!

Sarah: Really!

Kelly: Oh, the ending is so, like, like, that’s what I want for my HEA, right there!

Sarah: Awww!

Kelly: So, yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, my theory is always that any book that you haven’t read is a new book. It doesn’t always matter when it came out? It’s, it’s a new book. So if it’s last year, it’s still available, and it’s in Kindle Unlimited!

Kelly: What more do you need? I mean –

Sarah: Yeah, great, awesome!

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Can’t you, you can’t talk about what you’re working on, right? That’s all, that’s all secret?

Kelly: I can say that I’m a part of the Happily Ever After Collective?

Sarah: Ooh, cool!

Kelly: Yeah! It’s, it’s this really neat subscription service on Patreon. It’s got, I want to say like forty, forty-ish authors, and I mean, there are some authors in it that I’m literally kind of like looking over both shoulders like, Wait, I’m in this group too?

[Laughter]

Kelly: How did this happen? It’s, it’s super cool: every month we release four brand-new novellas, and they’re all centered around the same trope.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: So, like, fake relationship, enemies-to-lovers, sibling’s best friend. I do have a novella in it. I cannot tell you what month, ‘cause that’s the secret, but I can say it hasn’t come out yet, so. [Laughs]

Sarah: Ooh! So it is a month in the future!

Kelly: It is a future month –

Sarah: Okay!

Kelly: – that you will get my fun novella.

Sarah: Well, that’s awesome! And it is really an amazing thing, the, the collective, isn’t it?

Kelly: It’s super cool. I’m, I’m, I’m enjoying the experience –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – and getting to know some of the other authors, and they’ve already put out some really great stories and, you know, what’s coming up in the future is exciting too, so.

Sarah: That’s so cool! And it’s, and it’s, it’s another way to interact directly with readers without going through a retailer or a publisher. It’s direct, which is a much more efficient way to do things sometimes.

Kelly: You know, we, we aim to please – [laughs] – at the, the HEA Collective.

Sarah: Fabulous!

Kelly: Yeah! It’s cool. There’s different subscription tiers, too, so, you know, it, I like to think it’s, it fits every budget –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – whatever you’re, whatever you’re looking for.

Sarah: Where can people find you if you wish to be found? It’s okay if you don’t.

Kelly: [Laughs] If you’d like to find author me, my best place to go is my website. That is kellyfarmerauthor.com.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: That’s kind of one-stop shopping. I’ve got links to my socials. There’s info on all the books. There are content warnings, buy links, all that fun stuff. But if you want to find me on social media, Twitter is the best, and I am @KellyFarmerAuth, A-U-T-H, because Twitter didn’t give me two more letters –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – to finish that off. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, I’ve had that problem too.

Well, thank you so much for doing this interview! It has been an absolute delight, and congratulations again on your upcoming book!

Kelly: Thanks! And thank you so much. I’ve, I’ve been a fan of the podcast for many years, so –

Sarah: Aw, thank you!

Kelly: – this is, like, it’s like bucket-list author item.

Sarah: Thank you!

Kelly: Very exciting.

Sarah: I, I try to, I try to maintain a fun-to-listen-to production, so –

Kelly: Yes

Sarah: – I really, really appreciate that. Thank you.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank again to Kelly Farmer for hanging out with me, and of course I will have links to all of the books that we talked about and links to Kelly’s website and the Happily Ever After Collective in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

As always, I end with an absolutely dreadful joke, and I would never leave you hanging without one. This one comes from Maggie and her door of jokes, which is nearly a year ago now. Wow. Where is, where is time? What even is it? I don’t, I have no idea. So, are you ready?

What says, “Now you see me, now you don’t. Now you see me! Now you don’t!”?

Give up? What says, “Now you see me, now you don’t. Now you see me, now you don’t”?

A snowman in a crosswalk.

[Laughs] Do you have snow yet? It’s too early for snow here, but that absolutely made me extremely happy. Thank you, Maggie!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. We hope you have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

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