361. Playing Verbal Poker with Nalini Singh

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hi there, and welcome to episode number 361 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. With me today is Nalini Singh! Yay! If you have ever tried to get answers from Nalini Singh about her books and what’s going to happen in them, you probably know, perhaps from older episodes of this podcast, that she is a vault in all things. I attempted to find out about the future of the Psy-Changeling world and the Archangel world, and I got exactly nowhere, which is pretty much what I expected. Along the way, we talk about many things, including making the grumpy heroes melt, our book club discussion of Rebel Hard, how her first drafts are really just Nalini telling herself the story, and the reader reaction to the time between Archangel’s Prophecy and Archangel’s War. We talk about her upcoming thriller, A Madness of Sunshine, and there is seriously so much in this interview. I hope you enjoy it.

I also have two alternate titles, so you’ll have to let me know if I should have chosen one of these two. My other titles under consideration were “Every Reader Reads a Different Book” and “Trees and Death.” The second one was really a close, close finisher.

I also want to thank Ellen and Becky and Aarya Marsden for their questions for this episode.

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I also want to mention to you real quick: Sudio headphones. If you are looking for a new pair of Bluetooth headphones, I have a coupon for you! They sent me a pair to test. They are the Tolv. Now, it’s T-O-L-V, but I asked the internet, and that is apparently how you say it, and if I’m wrong, Swedish folks, please feel free to correct me. The Tolv Bluetooth headphones are little earbuds. They live in a little case, and the case is also a battery, so every time you put them in there they recharge, and they can keep going and going for seven hours of battery life each charge, and each case, the charge case holds another four charges, so you can keep going with these, possibly through all of RWA. I should put this to the test. If you would like to get yourself a pair of Sudio Bluetooth headphones, discount code smartbitches gets you fifteen percent off with any purchase and free worldwide shipping. I will link to the newest model in the show notes, but I have now tried three different pair of Sudio Bluetooth headphones and I really like them. They are fabulous, so if you need a new pair, fifteen percent off, not bad, and thank you to Sudio for the coupon!

I will have links at the end of the podcast about the music, and I will have information about what’s coming up on Smart Bitches, and I will have a really bad joke. Real, real bad. Of course I will have links to all of the books we talked about in this episode as well, but for now, let’s get started with this All the Way Around the World podcast: from New Zealand, here is Nalini Singh.

[music]

Nalini Singh: My name is Nalini Singh. I am based out of New Zealand, where it is the middle of winter right now, and I am mostly known for writing paranormal romance. I’ve written two series for a long time: the Psy-Changeling series, which deals with a world where, with three races, the Psy, who have conditioned emotion out of themselves in an effort not to give into their violent mental abilities; and then we have the Changelings, who are shapeshifters; and humans, who are sort of, you know, caught in between. And then I also write the Guild Hunter series, which features vampires and angels and mortals, and with the archangels as the most powerful who rule the world. But I also write some contemporary romance, including a rock star series and a rugby player series, and my first thriller comes out at the end of this year.

Sarah: Oh, I’m so asking about that. Now, when you tell people you’re from New Zealand, do people ask you if you know Taika Waititi?

Nalini: Sometimes! And you know, it’s –

Sarah: Really?!

Nalini: Well, it’s funny, because the thing is, in New Zealand, there’s about three degrees of separation, so –

[Laughter]

Nalini: – there is a good chance. So I don’t actually know, I don’t have a, a degree story for Taika, but I know someone who had coffee with Lorde.

Sarah: Get out!

Nalini: Yes, seriously, so there you go! Not even three degrees! Two degrees, I think, so –

Sarah: That’s two degrees from Lorde! Oh my gosh.

Nalini: [Laughs] That’s quite funny, but yeah, yeah, every so – I mean, we’re not tiny. It’s like five million people, but it’s quite funny. There’s, you do get these certain connections in life sometimes, I think particularly if they’re based out of Auckland?

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: Yeah.

Sarah: So I think that, should your novels be optioned for adaptation, that you should absolutely demand that he direct them so that you have no degrees of separation and you can just, like, clutter your Instagram with pictures of yourself with Taika.

Nalini: Okay, yeah. I’ll work on that. With all my –

Sarah: Yeah, I mean –

Nalini: – myriad contacts!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Okay. So you have a few books out this year, because you’re like the –

Nalini: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – the Nora Roberts of New Zealand.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Would you please tell me a little bit about, well, start with Wolf Rain.

Nalini: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Where are you going with the Trinity wing arc, arch, arch season thing?

Nalini: [Laughs] Season three?

Sarah: Where are you going with season three? Like, if these get optioned for streaming, they’re already packaged. Like, has no one jumped on this? But where are you going with this, with this next arc with Wolf Rain?

Nalini: Well, you know, if I told you I’d have to kill you, Sarah. But –

Sarah: And I have asked this question many times. Many, many times.

Nalini: [Laughs] What I will tell you is, there’s always – this is something I learned sort of starting, when I started writing my first series, and that is that I need to know where I’m going, always, because –

Sarah: Of course, of course!

Nalini: – that’s my planning. You know, a lot of people, a lot of writers plot book by book, or, like, each book is very heavily plotted, whereas I tend to plot the series arc, and then I just write the books, and I find if I know where I’m going, it all kind of comes together in the end? So yeah, with Wolf Rain, we went back to characters that first appeared in the first season of the series, but at the same time it’s, I think, a good entry book, because you’re getting to know these characters, especially at the start, almost in isolation. We’ve got –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – Alexei, who is a wolf Changeling, and he’s, he can be a bit of a grumpus, honestly, but he’s so fun, you know.

[Laughter]

Nalini: I mean, we know, we know we want to see those grumpy heroes melt, and he’s very powerful; he’s very strong. He’s one of the strongest in the Snow Dancer pack, and Snow Dancer itself is one of the strongest, if not the most strongest pack in the entire Psy-Changeling world, so –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – I’ve got this very strong hero, and he rescues a Psy heroine. So, you know, she has the mental abilities, who – but is not as physically powerful, and at the time that he rescues her, you know, she is the one being rescued. She is in a really bad situation. She’s been kept captive by a psychopath, and she really has nothing in life; she is alone. So she starts off as this very vulnerable party, but – her name is Memory – but she never gives in to that? You know, she is determined. She says, you know, she’s, she’s going to live out of spite to her captor.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: You know, she is, she’s going to be, to not become what he wanted her to become, and as the story continues, it’s, it turns out that Memory’s actually the one that’s rescuing Alexei, and, and I just love their journey. I mean, they’re adorable together. It’s –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – it’s wonderful seeing Memory find her strength, and it’s just as wonderful seeing Alexei be able to let down his walls and actually admit to her, you know, what’s happened in his life that’s left him so sort of shut off and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – to let himself be vulnerable to her. So yeah, I’m just sitting here smiling and kind of going, oh, they’re so adorable! You guys should all read this book if you haven’t already.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Now, I remember when I spoke with you about Heart of Obsidian, you had a sort of phrase on your computer that was directing the sort of tone of the book. Did you have a, a phrase or an idea for Wolf Rain as well, or was that unique to Heart of Obsidian?

Nalini: That particular one was unique to Heart of Obsidian, but I always have something that’s driving me. Like, sometimes I write it down, other times it’s always in my head, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Nalini: – with Wolf Rain, it was this emotion inside me. I always knew the tone that the book should have. Like, it’s not a heavy book. It’s not a –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: Like, it has some intense themes, but there’s a, there’s a joy to it, and I think that comes from Memory, this character who just refuses to not be joyful, you know, to not live her life, and yeah, it was this driver throughout the book. If ever I felt myself going off track, that kind of pulled me right back, because that’s, that’s the heart of the book. To have that intensity, but also the joy mixed in?

Sarah: Mm-hmm, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Now, I sent you a list of questions, and I’m going to go out of order because I’m a terrible human being.

Nalini: [Laughs] I all prepared! I sat and wrote out all my answers and everything!

Sarah: That’s okay!

Nalini: No, I’m joking!

Sarah: I’m on, I’m, I’m sticking to the questions. I’m sticking – you’re, you’re a plotter; I know you know where you’re going.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: So you mentioned the joy of Wolf Rain, and I know how excited so many of the Psy-Changeling readers were to, to have a Snow Dancer book, and when you mentioned joy, it made me think of your Rebel series, because we chose Rebel Hard as our podcast book club pick for the past quarter, and we had the best flipping time reading this book. Oh my gosh! Such a good time! So first of all, thank you for this book. It was flipping amazing!

Nalini: Oh, awesome! I loved writing it! I’m so glad you guys enjoyed it.

Sarah: Oh my gosh! Okay, so we’re having a conversation about it, and I’m talking about all the Pride and Prejudice references and all of the Austen references, and then Aarya Marsden, who is (a) a complete super-fan of yours was like, oh, nonononono, let me tell you about the Bollywood references, because there’s like sixty-five million of them.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: And she has some, we have some questions, actually, from that discussion that I was, like, begged to ask, so the first question from Aarya –

Nalini: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – she was wondering at the time we were discussing the book if Madhuri was a reference to Madhuri Dixit?

Nalini: So it wasn’t a reference to, like, a character in a particular movie or anything, but –

Sarah: No, but to the actress?

Nalini: – to the actress, yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: And you packed in so many Bollywood references; like, there’s a moment where the hero turns to the heroine and goes, this was not in the script. Like, what, what is happening? Did you just have the best time writing this book?

Nalini: Yes, I had such fun, and the thing was, all of those references, the best thing is they just came out naturally. I didn’t kind of plot any of that; that was just ‘cause I am just a huge Bollywood fan and also a huge Pride and Prejudice fan, so I just had just a ball writing it, and all these little bits and pieces came out, you know, and I was trying to write Bollywood in a book? [Laughs] So hopefully that succeeded!

Sarah: Yeah, I, I think you pulled it off! So Aarya also was wondering –

Nalini: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – if Nayna’s mom’s final eruption at her husband was a reference to the big, like, eruption monologue on the part of the mother from Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham?

Nalini: Oh, that’s one of my favorite movies.

Sarah: I hope I said that right.

Nalini: Yeah, it’s Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham. You know what, I didn’t consciously think it, but now that I’m, now that you’ve pointed it out, I’m like, hmmm!

Sarah: [Laughs] Yeah!

Nalini: What was going on in my subconscious? ‘Cause I have seen that movie, like, I don’t know, twenty-five million times, so, yeah, no, it wasn’t conscious on my part. I don’t – like I said, a lot of it was unconscious, but then when I look back on it or when someone points it out, I’m like, hmm! I see your point right there!

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Because when you have that, that movie or that story in common you can be like, oh yeah, I, I guess I did! You’re right!

Nalini: Yeah, I think it’s all, it’s, it’s a case of, ‘cause I’ve been a fan of Bollywood for such a long time, there’s probably a lot inside my head in terms of the tropes and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – you know, the types of scenes that tend to be in the books that – so for example, one that I did do consciously was the, the father in the hospital with the guilt? You know, he’s like, oh well –

Sarah: Yes!

Nalini: You know? That’s, that’s a very Bollywood movie scene. Oh, you know, someone’s dying, and they’ve got to do, some-, someone’s got to get married to someone, and it’s, it’s, you know, all this drama, so that, that, that is a very Bollywood scene, so –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Nalini: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, I, I caught that one. Even with my limited fluency in Bollywood, I was like, oh yeah, somebody’s dying: somebody’s got to get married. It’s like, it’s like somebody has a will that requires them to do a whole bunch of goofy crap, and Bollywood’s like –

Nalini: Yep.

Sarah: – somebody’s dying? Somebody’s getting married.

Nalini: [Laughs] That’s right!

Sarah: Okay, so this is the part where I put you on the spot and I’m a terrible friend, so I apologize in advance –

Nalini: [Gasps]

Sarah: – but we would like to humbly ask, all of us from Smart Bitches, we would like to humbly ask that if you are considering short fiction for upcoming newsletters that you either consider perhaps a book club of the construction crew where they’re all working on a building and just talking about a book? Or if that does not float your boat, Nayna’s grandmother and her romance with her neighbor, maybe the two of them going on a date.

Nalini: Okay, all right! I will add it to the list! I mean, maybe the construction club could read Sense and Shampoo, which is a great classic. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes, please! I love, love that name so much.

Nalini: Yeah, for sure. I’m actually going to write that down so that I don’t forget. You never know; one day it might pop up!

Sarah: Okay, if it does I will literally be beside myself. How long is the list for short fiction ideas? Do you accept bribes to move suggestions up the list?

Nalini: [Laughs] It’s completely random. I have this massive list, and then I just open it and I go, okay, what do I feel like today? So it just, it’s like, if the stars align, that’s, that’s what comes out.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I just want you to know, I no longer live in New Jersey, but I will drive back to the restaurant that we went to for the massive kilogram bucket of Nutella, and I will send it to you.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Full, not empty! Empty would be terrible! I would send you a full one, which would, you know, only be like a, a car in shipping. I don’t care. I would send you the big-ass bucket of Nutella.

Nalini: You, you do good bribes, Sarah. I’ll take it under advisement.

Sarah: [Laughs] All right, so I have a couple questions about worldbuilding, which is something that all of your series have in common. I mean, even the, the Rebel series, you’re, you’re building a world around those characters that is New Zealand, that is very real and tangible, and you also build, like, the world of a family, and you build the world of the Psy and the Changelings. Ellen on my Patreon wanted to know, how much worldbuilding did you do before book one? Like, you have all of this history about the Silence before the, long before the books begin. So how much worldbuilding have you done in the history of your own world?

Nalini: It’s kind of interesting how that came about. It was more, it began with a what-if question. What if we had great mental abilities like telepathy and telekinesis?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: And then after a while the question was, what if those abilities drove us insane? What would we do to survive? And that really was the genesis of the entire series, and I just, I’d been playing around with the ideas, but I didn’t really sit down and do like a – when I say I plot out where I know where the arc is going, it’s more that I think about the end of the story and I know what that is. So I didn’t sit down and actually plot out anything. [Laughs] I just started writing, and after those questions had come in my head and I’d been thinking about them, I just literally sat down and – this is the first time it’s happened to me – and Slave to Sensation just basically came out. So my first drafts are very rough because of my, my process, because I don’t do the heavy plotting for each book. What comes out is, is me telling myself the story, so that first draft is really me telling myself the story, and, but with Slave to Sensation, it was that, but it was also very clean? It’s like all those ideas –

Sarah: Hmm.

Nalini: – I’d been thinking about in my head just came out on the page quite cleanly. I did, you know, I did edit it in, in, in multiple drafts, but yeah, it was, it was in my head, so I didn’t really sit down and do the plotting? I think, but I had been thinking about those ideas and those concepts for quite a long time, and it was like the puzzle pieces finally clicked, because I had tried to start another book before then –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – and the pieces were in the wrong place. It just wasn’t working, and I kind of gave up and – but after a while I started again, and I had it this time, and it just, yeah, it just went. I, I was working in Japan at the time, and you might have heard me tell the story before, but I used to just, I’d go to school, which I was teaching English, so I would go to school, do my job, come home, literally put down my, my satchel, open my laptop, and then write, like, just till the seven o’clock news, which was in English, and I was fluent in Japanese by then, but I still liked to listen to the English-language news for like half an hour, and I would eat, like, peanut butter toast and then watch the news for half an hour and go straight back to the manuscript after and literally write until I fell into bed, and I did that for like three weeks in a row, and at the end of it I had Slave to Sensation. And it was the first time I’ve had that sort of compulsive need, just this obsession with this book, and I think it was because –

Sarah: Wow!

Nalini: – the world was so powerful inside my head, and it was just ready. It was ready to come out on the page, and I was exhausted at the end of that, those weeks, but I was also really, really satisfied, because this story, I was like, I love this story so much! And you know, I didn’t really think about it, and I think that’s, that’s just a little tip I would give newer writers is, don’t question yourself too much, because if I had questioned myself I would have thought, this is a really weird book, ‘cause I’m putting telepaths together with shapeshifters, and I don’t know, there’s, it’s, there’s, this is not something that I’d seen before, and, but yeah, I just went with it. I, I trusted the story, and it came out. So the answer to the question is, the worldbuilding happened consciously and subconsciously inside my head –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: -because of a lot of concepts that interested me that I’d been thinking about.

Sarah: Are you still fluent in Japanese?

Nalini: I’m quite bad. I mean, the thing is, it’s in my long-term memory, so if –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – if I go and talk to a Japanese friend for a while it’ll, it starts coming back, but I, I –

Sarah: It wakes up.

Nalini: Yeah, it wakes up, but I’m not fluent, like I couldn’t just go to Japan now and suddenly be okay. It would probably take me couple of months to sort of flow back into it.

Sarah: That’s very cool. So the worldbuilding exists almost as part of your process.

Nalini: It does, it does, but I will say, so that was the first book, but when I started writing the second book, I realized that I kept needing to refer back to things that I had said in the first book, because the first book, there’s a lot of freedom. The world is whatever I say in the first book. But in the second book –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: Right? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, oops, oh well, crap!

Nalini: Yes, and –

Sarah: Damn it, Past Nalini!

Nalini: Second book, it’s like, oh, right! I said this in the first book, so now – so from the second book, I actually realized I had to start keeping notes just to refer back, and so I do have like a wiki for the series because at this point, you know, with so many books written, it’s really good to have references to real, little, minor details and, but what I always do is, I always go back and check the references in the books, because, because of my process, I write a lot and I delete a lot, but sometimes some of the information I’ve deleted is still in my brain, so I always –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – double-check against the books to make sure the reader has the information that I think they do. So, and like, if I do a book about a character, say, like Hawk, who has been in the books since book one –

Sarah: Yes!

Nalini: – I would go back and read every single Hawk reference in all the books –

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: – to make sure that I don’t make an error or that I haven’t misremembered something and just to, just to get like a straight timeline of his part of the story through the books.

Sarah: Here is my, my, my other question that I’m pretty sure that you, you know the answer to, and that I already know the answer to. This is from Aarya: so for the Psy-Changeling entire world, you have a, an endgame in mind, and she says, I know there’s season two, and there’s enough unanswered plot threads for twenty books.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Do you have an end point in mind, and do you have an idea of how many books have, are, are between now and that endgame? Or are you just still going?

Nalini: I’m just, I tend never to know how many books it’ll take to tell the story. I always know the story I want to tell, and sometimes it takes three books, and sometimes it takes, I don’t know, thirty-three books. [Laughs] So it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s, I do know where we’re going. I do know where I would like to leave this world, but because of the way it’s structured, that’s, that’s a long way away, and to be honest, I always say, you know, I’ll be writing it till I’m ninety, so –

[Laughter]

Sarah: That’s not a bad situation to be in! That’s not a bad thing!

Nalini: I think with the Psy-Changeling world in particular, there’s, it’s, the two, my two major series are structured quite differently. With the Psy-Changeling world, there’s a lot of potential to tell stories within smaller areas of the world, so even if the big major storyline comes to a completion point, you might, I might be able to tell a story within a pack or a clan. You know, the, the more intimate stories, so there’s a lot of potential there for offshoot stories, I guess? from the main, main arc as well? And there has a lot of characters that, that readers want to know about and that I want to know about too, so there’s potential for stories for particular characters and their life and their adventures, and so yeah, there’s, it’s just, it’s just a wide-open book at the moment, but having said that, as always, there is a story arc running through it all, so I won’t have to sort of think of those questions until –

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: – we get to the end of, you know, the actual major story arc.

Sarah: I know better than to ask you too many future-based questions because –

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: – I learned years ago that one, you never play poker with Nalini Singh. Like, it’s bad. She’ll just lie right to your face, be like, oh yeah, that’s totally going to happen! Nah, uh-uh doesn’t happen.

Nalini: You’re going to make people think I’m a lying liar, Sarah!

Sarah: No, you know, and you just play so close to the vest because you, you, trust me, I know where I’m going, but I’m not telling you crap. Like, you’re the worst bus driver, but yet we’re all on this bus.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: We don’t get a clue as to where we’re going, but we’re still with you because we, we like the journey so far! [Laughs]

Nalini: Excellent! Yes, yes, stay on the bus. That’s going to be a very awesome adventure.

Sarah: Okay. So I wanted to ask you about the Archangel’s world –

Nalini: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – because, you know, having multiple releases in a, in a few months is super, super easy; it’s not at all stressful. How has the, the release of, of Archangel’s Prophecy and Archangel’s War – also, the covers, geeze! Who did you, who did you kill with those covers?

Nalini: Those covers are insane, is it? It’s, Tony Mauro is the artist, and he is just phenomenal. I sort of said –

Sarah: What?!

Nalini: – this is what I want, Tony, and he comes back with, Shazam! You know, I’m just like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: – bravo!

[Laughter]

Nalini: No, he’s fantastic.

Sarah: Wow, they’re gorgeous! It’s just, they’re just unreal, how gorgeous they are! So I want to ask you about Archangel’s Prophecy and the cliffhanger that you didn’t think was a cliffhanger. How has the, has the experience, how is the, what do you think of that experience now that it is almost at an ov-, at, at an end?

Nalini: What do I think of the experience? Well, it was unexpected, because I, I get, the force of the reaction was unexpected because I didn’t think it was a, that major of a cliffhanger, and the interesting thing was, all the people who read it before it was turned in, all the betas, you know, and nobody thought it was a super major cliffhanger, so clearly I have a different –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – level of sensitivity among the, the beta readers – [laughs] – than among the general reading population? And so that was interesting. I think it was, it was both good and bad. It was good in the sense that it showed that there’s, readers feel very strongly about the series, and it was bad in that I think if you were on my blog before I shut down the thread, there were people who crossed a line in terms of –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – they sort of, the way they spoke and the comments, and so that, you know, that, to me, was kind of saddening, because that’s something that’s going to always be there as part of my history, you know? – [laughs] – with my readers, but I try and keep in mind that it’s, the vast majority were really lovely, and even if they didn’t agree with the, or they didn’t like the cliffhanger, I should say, they were actually still really nice and, you know, I, I have no argument with anyone who dislikes anything in a book? You know, I’ve always been very open, and people have written to me with, like, I didn’t like this in a book, and I’ll write back.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: You know, it’s fine. I think there’s no way anyone can write a book that’s, is going to be loved by everyone. That’s just something I’ve learned after this long in, you know, writing. But I think there’s just a way to say these things, and yeah. So, so that wasn’t so great, but yeah, now that it’s over, it’s, I, the thing is, I couldn’t change anything. The book had to be written the way it had been written –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – and for me, it’s always come down to the story, being true to the story, so if I could go back in time and rewrite it, I would write it the same way, because Archangel’s War couldn’t exist without Archangel’s Prophecy, and I personally think –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – War might be one of the best books I’ve ever written. And in a way it’s one massive book, those two books together, so it’s, it’s just, it’s, the story has to take precedence for me, and you know, it always will. I guess the only thing I would do different is I would maybe make is super, super obvious that there was going to be a cliffhanger ending so that if people didn’t want to read it they could just get the book and wait until the next book came out. You know, it was never going to be an endless cliffhanger. Like, it’s not going to be three years later that you, or five years later. You know, it’s, it’s the next year, it’s the next book, and I can only write as fast as I can write, so –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – I was – and also, War, that book took it out of me, because it’s massive. It’s, it’s a big, big book. I’m quite impressed that they’ve managed to get it together into, like, a reasonable-sized paperback, and, ‘cause there’s just so much in it that had to be, had to be in that book, and I think it’s, and it’s a wild ride of a book. I, I had fun, I had fun with it, and yeah, so much happens. So much happens. That’s all I can say. It’s like a book I can’t talk about without spoilers. It’s like the entire book is a spoiler.

Sarah: So it is like your endgame.

Nalini: Well –

Sarah: Not exactly, that it’s not the end of an arc, but it is, you can’t really talk about any of it.

Nalini: I can’t talk about any of it, yes! It is like that! Yes, you’re right! I, I mean, I, I just signed to write three more Guild Hunter books so there’s obviously more to come, but yes, there’s, it’s an endgame type of book, ‘cause I can’t talk about it! And it’s actually really funny, ‘cause I’m trying to pick, right now I’m trying to pick excerpts, you know, for the website and the newsletter, and I’m like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: – I don’t know!

Sarah: All right, here’s your excerpt: The.

Nalini: Yeah. It’s going to be like that.

Sarah: Just The. [Laughs]

Nalini: This is the, this is the – because literally, anything I try and pick, it’s like, wow, this just spoils the experience for the reader, because I’m always very mindful that a lot of readers like excerpts, but at the same time, a lot of readers don’t like to be spoiled at all about any major –

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: – things, so I’m like, I don’t know what to do! So yeah. I’ll, I’ll let you know what I come up with.

Sarah: [Laughs] I’m just imagining, like, her hair was.

Nalini: Yes!

Sarah: All right, that’s all you get!

Nalini: That’s all you get.

Sarah: You know what you could do is, you could release, like, word poetry, like one word from each chapter, and be like, guess which one of these is the biggest spoiler?

[Laughter]

Nalini: This word is a spoiler. You have to guess what it is.

Sarah: [Laughs] All right, so I am dying to ask you about A Madness of Sunshine –

Nalini: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – which, by the way, is a brilliant title. Did you come up with that one?

Nalini: Yes! Yes, that’s one of mine! So I’m –

Sarah: Yes!

Nalini: – super happy!

Sarah: Oh good! Please tell me about your upcoming suspense, and also, I would like to know, how much entrails, blood and guts are we talking here? Is it more creepy than bloody, or is it both creepy and bloody? Like, what kind of suspense have you crafted with all of this sunshine, ma’am?

Nalini: It’s, it’s creepy. It’s not really a gory –

Sarah: Oh?

Nalini: – it’s not a gory one.

Sarah: Tell us everything.

Nalini: [Laughs] Yeah. So it’s, how do I put it? It’s, it’s more about the secrets hidden behind familiar faces. So the story – okay, so how it began was, I was chatting with a whole group of other Romance Writers of New Zealand people, and we were chatting away, and a lot of us really write like Nordic noir. So we, you know, we read the books, we like the television series, and we just got to talking how New Zealand has most of the prerequisites for Nordic noirs, like we’re kind of a country that no one really knows that much about; it’s dark a lot in winter; the country’s pretty empty, ‘cause we don’t have that big a population; and there’s lot of, like, geographic features that mean you can easily hide a body. You know, we’ve got the forest and the mountains –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Nalini: – and so it was just this conversation we’re having, and then I just got to, I just kept thinking about it and thinking about it, and I just thought, hmm! I wonder, I wonder if I could write a mystery like that? And then I just started, it was like a play project for me. I quite often do projects aside from stuff I’m contracted, just because I like to stretch myself as a writer, and some of them never see the light of day, but this one, it just, it just flowed really smoothly, and – firstly because I really know New Zealand so well and I could just figure out where you would, you know, where I wanted to set it. It was going to be the, the west coast of the South Island, which is incredibly beautiful but incredibly rugged. It, it can also be creepy if you, if you, you know, look at it in the right way and – or the wrong way, maybe. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Nalini: And, so yeah, I just took all that and put it into this book, and it just, and I, and I ended up with this small town of people who are quite intertwined, and they all think they know each other’s business, but actually there’s all these secrets just sort of under the surface, and then, you know, a young woman goes missing. And at first everyone thinks it’s an accident, like she went running and maybe she’s fallen down in one of the, the forest tracks and, you know, or she’s slipped and fallen into the ocean or something like that, but, but you know, as they don’t find her, then slowly the questions start to appear, like, what happened, you know? Who’s keeping secrets? And yeah, it’s, it’s like a slowly creepy book, because it’s, it’s really about how well do you know the people around you? And yeah, it goes from there. You should read it; it’s awesome. [Laughs]

Sarah: We fought over who was going to read it. Like, there was a, there was a brawl. It was digital, over many miles, but there was, yeah, there was, there was some discussion involved. So what was different for you writing suspense versus your other series? ‘Cause you have mysteries in the other series. There’s often a thing that needs to be solved or a problem that you don’t know the full story about that’s being revealed, or, you know, the whole plot is being revealed over however many books. You’re not, like, unskilled at suspense, but what was different for you about writing romantic suspense versus, you know, angels and magic and shifters and psychologically fearsome humans? These are just regular folks. What, what else was different besides, you know, regular humans?

Nalini: Okay, so the first thing I would say is, I didn’t actually write it as romantic suspense. I think I have to say that because for romantic suspense, I think people would expect more romance, and it’s written more as a suspense with a slight romantic element, so just, just go into it with that mindset. And that really was the, the, the core of it, actually. With all my other books, though I’ve had suspense plotlines and I even wrote a locked-room mystery in a novella, this one, the focus was on the thriller. So the, the, any kind of relationship aspect or, like, the romantic relationship was not the driver of the story. The driver of the story was the mystery or the thriller aspect, and with my other books the romance is the driver, and everything else moves around that, whereas in this book, everything else moves around the thriller aspect, if that makes sense. And so for me, it was just always keeping that in mind as I wrote. And it wasn’t that hard, because once I put myself into that mindset, once I was like, oh, actually, I am writing a thriller now – ‘cause when I first started I was just playing with ideas and, and seeing what came out, and as it began to came out, come out, I thought, right, this is a thriller, and yeah, once I had that in my head, sort of like, what’s the word, like a lodestar or something to follow –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – it kind of kept me on the straight and narrow, and I think it was good to actually think about it, because my natural tendency, obviously, is to write romance, because I love writing romance, so I just had to put myself on the right compass heading, so to speak, and the heading was, head towards thriller, which means, yeah, focus on that. That is the driver of the story, so everything that happens in the book is driven by the search for this missing girl and also by, you know, all the other things that start to come up which make everyone suspicious of exactly what’s going on and the secrets and – so all that drives the story. Any, the romance element is peripheral to it.

Sarah: So it’s not exactly romantic suspense, so I am incorrect. My apologies.

Nalini: No, that’s fine! I think –

Sarah: I just assumed that, you know, it’s got your name on it; I just assumed. My bad.

Nalini: I know. I think that’s, that’s why I’ve been quite open with saying that, because I think people see my name and they will immediately assume it is romantic suspense, and obviously I can think what I can think, but it’s going to depend on what readers think when it goes out, and so far the reviews that have been forwarded to me have come in saying, it’s not a romantic suspense; it’s a, you know, it’s a mystery with romantic elements or a thriller with romantic, some romantic elements. So yeah, I think if a reader goes into it with that mindset, that they’re really going into it for the thriller story, and any sort of –

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: – romance thing is a bonus, they’re more likely to enjoy it –

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: – than if they go into it expecting a romance.

Sarah: So how much driving or traveling around New Zealand did you do thinking, oh yeah, I could totally drop a body.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, I could drop one over here. Like, is your search history even more suspicious now?

Nalini: Oh God, it’s like the FBI can never get hold of my computer. It’s, yeah. No –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: I’ve traveled quite a bit around New Zealand, and even before I decided I wanted to write a thriller, I remember just looking and going, hmm, this little town would make, like, a, well, you could put such a creepy mystery in here! Because even though it was a perfectly lovely little town, it was just because it was in the middle of nowhere. Like, if you traveled through the South Island –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – and our middle of nowhere is very wild. Like, New Zealand is not, like, we have roads and everything, of course; it’s civilized, but it’s uncivilized in that a lot of the landscape has been left as it was, so it’s, you know, the native forests are very tangled and beautiful and shadowy, and there’s just these walking paths you can hike through that sort of take you away into the distance, and that’s it. You know, you don’t know; you could be miles from civilization, miles from any other human being. So there’s just a lot of really beautiful, stark, you know, and quite dangerous sort of scenery that I found really, really inspiring, and it’s a good excuse to also go and look at all that lovely scenery as well?

Sarah: Oh yeah. That must have been terrible!

[Laughter]

Sarah: And, and rural, wild places like that, they, they have a, there’s a very real sense of, if you’re stupid, the land will kill you.

Nalini: Exactly. That and, that’s actually one of the themes that sort of runs through the book is that people look at the beauty and assume that it’s, that they can just wander into it, but actually, you know, it’s very unforgiving. It’s, you can get lost within, you know, ten minutes of just going off a path to take a photo kind of thing.

Sarah: Yeah, and, and it changes quickly.

Nalini: It does, it does. I think the weather is, the weather also plays a part in the book because it, it can be very changeable, you know. You could have a storm coming in suddenly, and you’re, if you’re out in the elements without the proper gear, that could be it for you.

Sarah: Oh yeah, you’re screwed. You’re going to die.

Nalini: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yes. Stupid will kill you.

Nalini: Yep.

Sarah: So looking at all of the books that you’ve written and that you’re releasing and that you’re writing, one of the quotes from Archangel’s Prophecy was that human life has to be lived in fast forward, since human lives are so brief compared to archangels, and –

Nalini: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – if you look back over your publishing history, the number of series that you’ve written, the number of incredibly massive worlds that you’ve built and then sustained, do you ever feel like your life is sometimes in fast forward, or do you feel like yours moves at a more human, regular pace?

Nalini: I think it moves at a human, regular pace, because for me as a writer, I’m on the other end where it’s word by word, you know.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: Some, some days I spend an hour crafting a single sentence, and so it doesn’t feel like fast forward at all? It feels, yeah, just, sometimes it feels glacial.

[Laughter]

Nalini: But – and also, I think, because I’ve been writing so long. So I wanted to be a writer from when I was young, like really young, so by the time I actually got published I felt like I’d been writing forever and trying to get published, and remember, this is before e-books, before self-publishing, anything like that, so for me to get published, you know, I had to get a publishing contract with a publisher.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: And so it felt like that I’d just been knocking on doors forever, you know?

[Laughter]

Nalini: There’s, imagine me saying that in a teenage voice, and –

[More laughter]

Nalini: So it’s like, I was like, I’m getting so old, and I’m never going to get published! And, but, ‘cause you know, when you get those rejections, it’s very, you know, it’s very lowering, and – but yeah, yeah, I feel like I’m, I’m going at my pace, and I think that’s kind of important to point out, because, particularly among writers, there’s this thing where we start to compare to each other sometimes, so, oh –

Sarah: Yes.

Nalini: – she’s writing more books than me, or, you know, I can’t write as fast as her, and I think that’s, that’s just really damaging. I think we all have to be at peace with our pace –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – whatever that may be, and that also changes with life, with life changes. It’s, I’ve had different paces at different parts of my life, and it just so happens that this particular time is, I’ve been, just, I’ve just been able to write faster for whatever reason, so I wrote, like, the thriller, you know, around all my other work, so sometimes we’re faster, sometimes bit slower, but each pace is unique.

Sarah: Yeah, that’s very true. Did you write the thriller without having a contract, or did you have a contract for it?

Nalini: No, I had no contract, because it was kind of like a challenge to myself to see if I could do it.

Sarah: It’s your play time!

Nalini: Yes! It was play time! And also, I didn’t want the pressure of having a contract and saying I have to deliver something at a certain date. I wanted to just do it to see if I could do it and then, and then we’d figure it out –

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: – about selling it, yeah. And also, I think it was good in the sense that if I had gone to a publisher and said, I’m writing a thriller, if anyone had had certain expectations of what I would come up with maybe?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: For example, a romantic suspense, maybe, or –

Sarah: Right.

Nalini: – you know, whereas I wrote this and then I sent it to, sent it to my publishers, and so everybody actually read what I wrote without any expectations ahead of time?

Sarah: Wow. So this was really a, a, a challenge, but also, was it, was it freeing too, to just have this space to be like, I’m going to do this whole new thing just for me?

Nalini: Yeah, yeah, it was, it was freeing, and I, that’s why I’m a big believer in having play projects, because it’s just, it’s just the freedom to play and figure out, can I do this? You know, does this suit –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – my abilities, or does this make me happy to write this? And that’s why I actually never talk about my play projects until I’m quite deep into it, because, like I said, sometimes I get twenty-five thousand words into it and I’m like, oh, actually, no. Doesn’t feel right. And then –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – if I haven’t told anyone, then no one’s going to be disappointed if it, if they never hear about it again.

Sarah: [Laughs] And it, and it must be, with the number of characters in the worlds that you’ve built and the number of readers you have around the world, it must be a very different creative space to just be the only person who knows what you’re doing.

Nalini: Well, it is and it isn’t, because I, I’ve always known that the story comes first, and that’s just, you know, like I talked about before, it’s just something that’s always driven me, so I tend not to be influenced by requests or, you know, external opinions, because as I learned very early on in my career, and I think it was a good lesson, I had very divergent reactions to my first books. It was like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – I either hate, I hate it or I love it, and I had that when I was unpublished, when I was coming through, you know, doing contests and things, and people were either giving me like ten stars, or they were giving me one stars. So what I realized was that –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: Yeah, it’s true; it’s not, it’s, that was how bad it was, like, on either end of the spectrum.

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: But it actually taught me a really good lesson, which was that different people will react differently to the same material. So I can’t listen to all the other voices because that, it will actually never – if I try and please everyone, it’ll literally please no one, because it’ll just –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – it becomes very bland. So when I sit down to write, it’s me and the story, you know. It just, I turn off everything. Internet’s off, everything’s off, and I just go into the story, and so in terms of the writing, when I’m in my writing headspace –

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Nalini: – it’s, it’s, I’m alone except for the characters, and I think that’s how it should be. I think if I let, particularly, as you say, at this point, you know, where the books have quite a few readers, and I still get those emails that come in saying, I love this book, but this scene totally didn’t work for me, and then literally the next email after that will be, I hated this book, but this one scene was, like, the best scene ever, and it’s literally the same scene.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: It’s the same scene, so yeah. It’s just, there’s, there’s literally no way that I will ever make everyone happy, so all I can do is just focus on the story I want to tell and then put it out there, and then people will react, you know, as they will.

Sarah: One thing I’ve always noticed over the many years that we’ve talked in person or, or digitally is that you have almost like a, a line of demarcation that once the book goes out to readers, that’s the end of the time when it belongs to you alone, and you have this sort of point of letting go almost that’s really impressive, because that’s really, really hard. Like, if somebody starts ranting about how much they hate Smart Bitches, I totally take it personally, and you can imagine why.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, gosh, I, I do get a little pissed off, even though I’m like, yeah, well, that’s fine. There’s the whole internet, and what I do isn’t for everyone, and that’s okay! Sometimes I am cilantro, and some people think it tastes like soap, and that’s okay! But it is also important to separate and then, yes, also important to be like, yes, I, I did feel that one deep in my feelings. You seem to have a line where you’re like, all right, this is, this is no longer mine, and I can let it go. Does it get easier with the number of books you’ve published?

Nalini: I think so. I think it does, and, but I remember this quote I read a long time ago, and it really had a big impact on me, and it said, every reader, it’s along the lines of, every reader reads a different book?

Sarah: Yes!

Nalini: Yes, and I thought, oh! And I really thought about that, and I thought, that’s true! Like, I’ve had this in discussions with my friends where we’ve read a book and we’ve had totally divergent responses to it, depending on where we come from in our life, you know, where we are, what our mood is that day. It could be as even, as simple as that. So I always keep that in my mind. I, how someone reads my book is not something I will ever be able to predict. And the thing is, once a book is done, I’ve written it. It’s, it’s out there –

Sarah: Yeah.

Nalini: – in the world. I’ve, I’ve created what I’ve had to create, you know, what, what I’m driven to create, and then I’ve given it to the world, and then it’s, you know, how they react to it is, is theirs. You know, their, their feelings, everyone’s feelings are just as relevant in terms of their reaction. That’s also why I tend really not to get involved in reader discussions, because – I used to, early in my career. You know, I used to do a lot more question and answer – and when I say reader discussions, I don’t mean that I’m poking my nose into reader spaces, but where I’m invited – so I used to do a lot more things where I would be invited to go in and answer questions, and I realized slowly that by doing that, sometimes I would stop discussion, because if two readers are having a discussion and they’re arguing over something and then the author comes in and says, oh, this is the right answer, the “right answer” – I’m making quotation marks –

Sarah: Of course.

Nalini: – and it kind of stops, it stops the discussion, that natural discussion, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: So obviously I’ve learnt as well, and I’ve learnt that when it’s a thing of opinion about a book, there is no right answer. It’s, it’s, each answer is correct for the reader that’s reading it. So these days, you know, the only things I usually answer are, like, factual things that someone asked me, like a factual question about something in the series that is, you know, like, math. You know, one plus one is two.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: If it’s something like a, you know, math fact, you know, I would answer it, because that’s not going to change. That’s not an opinion thing; that’s literally just the foundation of the world. But everything else, I’m like, yeah, I’ve, I’ve created it. Here’s my gift to you, readers, and now you read it as you will.

Sarah: I think that’s a really strong position to be in, too, as a creative person, that at this point I’m no longer in control of anyone’s reaction to this, and, and I can’t control what they do or what they think. It’s, it’s, it’s out of your control now; you can move on to something else.

Nalini: Yeah, I think that’s a really good way to put it. I think, I think especially when you’re a newer writer, it’s really easy to get so stressed out about reviews and people’s reactions, but as you see, no one can control anyone’s reaction. I mean, the biggest author in the world, you know, J. K. Rowling, Stephen King, anyone, no, they can, they can’t control what anyone thinks of their books. And, you know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – neither can I, so all I can do is write the best book that I can write and then send it out and, and then work on my next book, because the writing, for me, is, you know, it’s the thing. That’s what drives me. Yeah, so going back to the books is always what’s most mentally healthy for me, as opposed to hanging out on review sites or, you know, frantically tracking what people are saying. That’s, that’s not a good place for me or, I think, for any writer, really. It’s much better to just step back and go back into the writing.

Sarah: And go hang out with your characters.

Nalini: That’s right, hang out with my characters!

[Laughter]

Nalini: And I was going to say, you know, those short stories and things I write, that’s really, that’s just me hanging out with my characters.

Sarah: You’re hanging out in your own fanfic.

Nalini: That’s right, I write my own fanfiction. It’s good fun!

Sarah: I love that so much!

[Laughter]

Nalini: No, I was going to say, like, I should one day, when I’m, when I’m a little bit older maybe, maybe I should make up a pseudonym and go into fanfiction sites and actually write my own fanfiction and see if people compare it.

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: People’ll be like, oh my God, you don’t even know anything about Nalini. I can see the comments now: Who are you? You know nothing about Nalini Singh. It’s not, it’s like you’ve never read a book of hers ever.

[Laughter]

Nalini: Ohhh! Maybe, maybe when I’m eighty and badly behaved I’ll do something like that. I should have some –

Sarah: That would be, oh, oh please, please let me know when you do, because the comments will be astonishingly great.

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: I, I exist in some fandom communities apart from romance, and I, I keep that identity separate, and I actually had somebody say to me, you know what? You don’t know anything about romance, and I was like, okay, sure!

Nalini: Oh no!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Like, okay! Cool! Yeah, ‘cause I wasn’t going to, like, argue, because that’s a separate world for me. I keep that separate for a very specific reason, but being told I, you just, you just don’t know anything about romance, do you? And I just sort of sat back a moment and thought, nope, guess not.

[More laughter]

Nalini: That’s hilarious! I want to read this now! I want to be like, what did Sarah write?

Sarah: I know, right? Just random crap about a movie, arguing about – like, you don’t know anything. Like, oh wow! Okay! Yeah! Sure I don’t. Absolutely.

[Laughter]

Nalini: Oh man.

Sarah: So you went to Norway. I love your Instagram.

Nalini: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: I stalk it like a freak. How was Norway? How, what did you love about it, and how wired were you after that many hours of sunlight?

Nalini: So Norway was fantastic. Norway was extraordinarily beautiful.

Sarah: It’s another country where the land will kill you if you’re dumb.

Nalini: Exactly, exactly. I was literally on a boat –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: – in a fjord, and I said to someone, you know, you could throw a body over that waterfall, and no one would ever find it ever again. And she just looked at me going, so that’s how your brain works!

[Laughter]

Nalini: But seriously, I mean, Norway, all, I mean, Nordic noir! Norway is one of the Nordic countries! It’s, it’s stunning. I mean, it’s breathtaking, but very dangerous. It actually did remind me a lot of New Zealand. They have about the same number of people in their country, you know, with the mountains –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nalini: – and the, the lakes and the waterfalls. And it was just, it was just really good to just be in a place that most of Europe, if you’ve traveled in Europe, you know, there’s a lot of cathedrals, churches, you know, really fantastic buildings and art museums, and with Norway, the guide we were with, he said, you know, their museum or their, their big thing is not, they didn’t build buildings. They, it’s the landscape, you know, and there’s a road we went down called Trollstigen. It’s called a troll road, so Google that, and it’s this insane zigzag path down this massive mountain, and it’s beautiful and terrifying, and it was one of the favorite things that we did while, you know, we were over there, and you just go down, and you’re like, we’re going to fall off the side of this mountain, because how, how are we even getting down this road that is so twisty and just so high?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: But it was just, it was, it was amazing, and I loved it, and it was weird not seeing darkness, but I was okay with it, ‘cause all the, all the hotels and places we stayed have the blackout curtains, so –

Sarah: Yeah, they’re used to it.

Nalini: Yeah, when you’re, when – and also, I think it helped that I was so tired, because flying from New Zealand to Europe –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: – is, like, more than twenty-four hours on a plane, you know? That’s not even –

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Nalini: – it’s not even adding in any layovers. That’s just time on a plane. So by the time you get there, you’re like, I don’t care if it’s bright sunlight outside; I’m going to sleep now. So –

[Laughter]

Nalini: – it was quite easy to sort of get back into the routine of sleeping at the right time and – but yeah, and it was actually quite beautiful, the light at ten o’clock at night. I have one particular picture on my Instagram – which is @authornalinisingh if anyone wants to look at it – and the light’s just really lovely. It’s this soft kind of sunset light, and it’s taken at like ten o’clock at night. Yeah, it was really breathtaking. I, I thought it was beautiful, and you know, I might be throwing some bodies over waterfalls in Norway soon. Who knows?

Sarah: Sounds great! Sounds like a great plan. I cannot wait to read about bodies over waterfalls, because, I mean, they would be gone! You’d never find them!

Nalini: You would never find them! Ever! They would go in the fjord –

Sarah: Amazing.

Nalini: – and that’s it! They’re gone!

Sarah: Well, they would be fish food.

Nalini: That’s true!

Sarah: I remember a couple of years ago, I was on the Isle of Man, which is between England and Ireland in the Irish Sea and quite farther south than, than Norway, although at one point I think it was part of Norway, and it wasn’t daylight twenty-four hours, but it was July, and I was like, oh, I’m going to wait, and I’m going to see the stars, ‘cause this is a dark skies area, and I’ve always lived in metropolitan areas where there’s a lot of light pollution, so I don’t really see a, a whole sky entirely filled with stars very often in my life.

Nalini: Right.

Sarah: I’m like, I’m going to stay up, I’m going to stay up, and it was like 11:30, and I’m like, why is the sun still up? What is happening? Why can I still see the sun? And I was, like, getting mad at it, ‘cause I was really tired?

[Laughter]

Sarah: I was really pissed off. Like – [growls] – why are you still here? I can still see you; go away! [Normal voice] I never saw the stars because the sun was still on the horizon. I’m like, what is, what is happening? How is this – and, like, oh, it’s July –

Nalini: It’s July!

Sarah: – and I’m way farther north! [Laughs]

Nalini: Nope, yeah. You’ll have to come to New Zealand to see the, the skies at – ‘cause we’ve got those regions as well, the, the no-light regions where you can see the stars?

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nalini: Yeah.

Sarah: So what are you working on now? What are you working on at this moment that you can’t tell us about because it’s the future?

Nalini: [Laughs] Yeah, that’s right, it’s the future. So right now I’m working on, actually, the next contemporary, which features Jake, which, who is one of my rugby-playing brothers in –

Sarah: Mm, nice!

Nalini: – in my, yeah, so these books all have Hard in the title: Cherish Hard, Rebel Hard, Rock Hard, and yeah, so it’s good fun. You know, he’s a single dad, and he’s a bit of a, he’s very serious, you know, ‘cause he became a single dad very young, and it kind of changed the trajectory of his life. And so he’s, he’s a bit older than his years, and, and I just love those heroes that need to be unbuttoned a little bit, you know. He needs to learn to laugh and –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Nalini: – to, to be young again, and his heroine is like, oh, I love her. She’s, she’s awesome. She’s, she’s, she’s a tough little cookie and, yeah, I’m just having a lot of fun getting to know these two. But the other thing I’m doing sort of at the same time is I’ve started to think about the next Psy-Changeling book, because I tend to start writing them, you know, at least like the year before, yeah, so now I would start writing it for next year. And as always, I just, I leave it. Like after I write, after I finished writing Wolf Rain, I didn’t consciously think about what the next book was going to be. I just let it sort of percolate, and when it’s time it’s like, I’ve got a couple of characters sitting in my head now going, yep! It’s our time now.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: I’m like, are you sure? Because – yeah, yeah, yep, yep, it’s our time now. So now I kind of have an idea of who it’s going to be, but like I said, I don’t tend to talk about stuff until I’m actually into it, because I need the freedom to, for the characters to change their minds, or for me to realize it’s just not working for some reason and, you know, move on to something else, but probably give me a couple of months and then I’ll be announcing the next Psy-Changeling book! [Laughs]

Sarah: Please tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Oh, I can just potentially hear your readers listening and screaming like, did she slip? Let’s slow down the audio! Maybe she said a name!

Nalini: [Laughs]

Sarah: Let’s, let’s play it backwards! Maybe we’ll stretch it out and see if she said something. Like, nope! She’s not going to reveal a thing. Uh-uh. Nope, nope, nope.

Nalini: Oh, and I also started making notes for the, for another thriller, because I did really enjoy writing A Madness of Sunshine, so you know, I want to be doing that a little bit as well.

Sarah: That sounds awesome! So someone’s going to die, basically, is what you could say. Someone is going to die.

Nalini: Yep, yep. There’s going to be, there’s going to be a forest that’s going to be involved, and yep! That’s all I’m going to give you right now. [Laughs]

Sarah: Trees and death. We’ve got trees; we’ve got death; that’s all I can give you at this time. [Laughs] Now I have to decide what to title this episode. Should I call it “Trees and Death” –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – or “Every Reader Reads a Different Book”? Oh, I’ve got to, I’ve got to choose a title; it’s going to be hard.

Nalini: I know what you should call it.

Sarah: Okay.

Nalini: I know what you should call it.

Sarah: Tell me!

Nalini: “Playing Poker with Nalini.”

Sarah: Oh God, that was one of my suggestions! It’s on my list!

Nalini: No! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes! “Playing Poker with Nalini Singh.” You do not win ever.

[Laughter]

Sarah: That was one of my options. That’s hilarious! [Laughs] Okay –

Nalini: Oh dude, great minds.

Sarah: I love it! So one last question I always ask: what books –

Nalini: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – have you read recently that you would really like to tell people about?

Nalini: Okay, so I’m going to, I’m going to turn this into an appreciation podcast for Sharon Lee and Steve Miller, who write the Liaden books. They are like Regencies in space, okay, so if you like science fiction and you just love the, the play of manners in Regencies, you will love these books, and so right now, I’m cheating a little, ‘cause I haven’t read this one, but it’s, it’s called A Liaden Universe Constellation, Volume 4, and it’s like a compilation of all the short stories they’ve done over the years in their universe? So I am so looking forward to reading this. I have kept this sort of as like a treat for when I’ve finished my book –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: – so that I can just dive in and be like, gobble, gobble, gobble and, like, read the whole book and then be really sad because I read every single story. But I just love their world, and I’ve read, like, every single book in the Liaden Universe, and they’re just so fantastic in terms of worldbuilding and the characters? Their characters are so unique. Like, each one is a person, and each one has their personality, and it’s just a fun series. And the interesting thing about this series is that some of them are actually quite romantic; even though it’s a science fiction series, there’s romances in there too, so if you’ve, you know, if you’re a romance reader and you just really want to try them but you’re not sure if it’s too science fiction-y, there’s books in their, you know, books in the series that you can go into it as a romance reader, and actually I know quite a few romance readers who are just obsessive fans of this series, so I’m just, like, spreading the word so then there’s more people for me to talk about this series with, ‘cause really that’s –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nalini: – what it’s about. But yeah, Sharon Lee, Steve Miller, I can’t wait. I’ve just loved everything they’ve written. Yeah, so I think Sharon Lee and Steve Miller, along with J. D. Robb and Jayne Krentz and all her pseudonyms are probably my most-read authors, but now, see, now I’m forgetting – now I’m like, Anne McCaffrey, Christine Feehan, so really I shouldn’t say that, because I’m just going to forget people. But, but yeah, so that’s my next binge is going to be their book.

Sarah: So if you were going to recommend a title that readers start with, if they were like, oh, I’ve never read this. I want to read a romance that’s, I want to read this as a romance reader, which book do you think readers should start with in the Liaden Universe? ‘Cause it’s massive! It’s twenty-one novels and lots of collections and dang! You do not mess around.

Nalini: It’s really big. No, it’s big, but actually, there’s an easy entry point. I think it’s, it’s called Agent of Change, and the last time I looked it was, like, their free e-book that you could read to enter the –

Sarah: Oh?

Nalini: – series? So that’s a super easy entry point, and it actually begins one of the romances, so it’s an adventure, but it also has a romance built into it. If you would like more of a sort of pure romance – ooh – it’s, it’s an, it’s an omnibus, so it’s got the Dragon – oh, see, now I can’t think of it, but email me if you’re interested in it, ‘cause I’ve got it on my bookshelf, and I will, I will tell you what to get that has, like, the romance-romance. But yeah, Agent of Change is awesome. You can try that as well.

Sarah: Is there a, is there anything else you want to add before we, before we go?

Nalini: Just that I thank you for this podcast, and also, you know, thank you for all the readers who’ve come with me on the journey so far, because I can only do this as a job as long as, you know, I have reader support, so I am so grateful to all of you who have, you know, found joy in my work, and I hope you continue to do so!

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. I want to thank Nalini Singh for talking with me bright and early for her on a Monday morning with the time difference. I love chatting with her, and I hope you enjoyed this podcast as well. You can find Nalini on her website, nalinisingh.com. You can find her beautiful pictures on her Instagram @authornalinisingh, and if you go to nalinisingh.com/contact, for the love of all that is holy, sign up for her newsletter, because then if you’re a fan you get extra free bonus pieces of fiction, ‘cause when she hangs out with her characters, everyone wins!

You can get in contact with me, if you wish, at [email protected], or you can leave me a message at 201-371-3272 – that’s country code 1 in the front. You can tell me what you’re thinking; you can ask questions; you can tell me a terrible joke because you know how much I love them. Either way, I do love hearing from you, so please feel free to tell us what’s up!

This podcast is brought to you by Wind River Protector by Lindsay McKenna. Discover the true meaning of love and freedom in the American West with the Wind River Valley series by New York Times bestselling author, US Navy veteran, and genre pioneer Lindsay McKenna. In Wind River Protector, the eighth installment of the series that RT Book Reviews called a tribute to vets and a love letter to the wild beauty of Wyoming, a female Air Force veteran healing from a helicopter crash on Wind River Ranch finds herself in charge of an ex-Army Blackhawk pilot who may be too hot to handle. Discover Wind River Protector by Lindsay McKenna, on sale now wherever books are sold, and for more information visit kensingtonbooks.com.

Our transcripts are hand-compiled this week and every week by garlicknitter. This week’s transcript is brought to you by Last Chance Rodeo by Kari Lynn Dell. In this standalone novel, Dell invites readers into the heart of her home country, Montana’s Blackfeet Nation, and the challenges faced by a teenaged boy with fetal alcohol syndrome who is determined to live his best life with the staunch support of his makeshift family, plus a whole lot of hope, humor, and one very opinionated horse. One thoughtless moment cost David Parsons everything: an irreplaceable horse named Muddy, his rodeo career, and his fiancée. After four long years he’s finally tracked the missing horse to the Blackfeet Reservation. It should be the happiest day of his life. But the troubled young boy who’s riding Muddy now has had more than his fair share of hard knocks, and his fierce guardian Mary Steele will do whatever it takes to make sure that losing this horse isn’t the blow that levels him. David finds himself drawn to both woman and boy, and is faced with a soul-wrenching dilemma: take Muddy and his shot at rodeo glory…or claim what could be his last chance to make his shattered heart whole. Author Kari Lynn Dell is a Blackfeet descendant who lives with her family on the reservation and brings a lifetime of rodeo experience to this touching family drama. Last Chance Rodeo is available July 30th wherever books are sold. Find out more at karilynndell.com.

I also want to mention, if you are in the market for a new pair of Bluetooth headphones, if you go to sudio.com you can get fifteen percent off with discount code smartbitches – that’s all one word, no capital letters – and you’ll get free worldwide shipping. I will link to the newest model in the show notes, the Tolv, which is spelled T-O-L-V, but forvo.com says that it’s “Toll,” and I hope I’m saying that correctly. They are a pair of wireless buds. They sit in your ear, they’re super light, and their case is also a charging battery, so you can put them in and they’ll recharge. You get about seven hours of battery life each time they’re charged, and the case holds another four charges, so you can keep going and going and going with these things, which is awesome. If you would like to get your own pair, fifteen percent off with discount code smartbitches. Go to sudio.com, and thank you, Sudio, for the coupon.

Our music each and every week is brought to you by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. It is still hecking hot where I am, and it’s the middle of winter in New Zealand, so again this week, I am going back to Adeste Fiddles, my favorite holiday album from Deviations Project. This is “The Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy,” originally composed by Tchaikovsky. You can find this album at Amazon, at iTunes, and wherever you buy your fine, fine, funky music.

Coming up on Smart Bitches this week, we have super amazing stuff; I’m really excited. First, Saturday, Whatcha Reading? It’s the post where we tell you what we’re reading, and then you tell us what you’re reading, and we have more reviewers on board now, so this is going to be a long post. Then we all buy more books. Then we do it again in another two weeks! I love Whatcha Reading? It is one of our most popular posts, so I hope you come by and tell us what you’re reading, ‘cause really we actually desperately want to know. It’s my favorite question. That’s why I ask it every episode.

Then on Sunday, I have a sneak peek of The Art of Theft, the next Charlotte Holmes novel from Sherry Thomas. In fact – [whispers] – I have the whole first chapter! [Normal voice] So you get to read the first chapter months early, and I have a giveaway of some finished copies as well. Seriously, I’m really excited. I hope you’ll come by and check it out; it’s really, really good! I can’t wait to read it!

We will also have reviews of some brand-new and extremely anticipated titles. We will have Hide Your Wallet, all about August releases, and of course Help a Bitch Out and Books on Sale every day. I hope you will come by and hang out with us.

I will have links to all of the books we talked about, because Nalini talked about a lot of books! ‘Cause that’s how this show goes. And if you go to the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, I will have links to all of them.

But now, as always, I will end the episode with a terrible, terrible joke. Are you ready for a terrible joke? I hope so, ‘cause this one is really bad. Okay. Bad joke, let’s do this.

Why is the letter B so cool?

Why is the letter B so cool?

Because it’s sitting in the middle of the AC!

[Laughs] I sent that to my children, who are at camp and do not have AC, and they were very annoyed with me, so I win! [Laughs again] That is from Reddit user /drumspace, and I am completely delighted by this joke.

On behalf of everyone here and on behalf of Nalini Singh, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

[last bit of sweet music]