Carly Phillips, Reddit, and The Sheltering Suburban Mom Meme

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by SB Sarah | January 23, 2012 | Monday at 5:18 pm | 53 Comments

A reader sent me a link to a Reddit thread which reveals that the image used in a popular meme online, Sheltering Suburban Mom, is the author photo of Carly Phillips, bestselling romance author.

Cue long discussion of how romance is porn.

This is a whole new kettle of WTF for an individual like Ms. Phillips, who probably never suspected that her image was being used to portray a meme character. Her identity has been listed at Know Your Meme for awhile, and their article traces the first known usage of Philips' author photo as 5 May 2011.

I don't know if I can successfully explain a meme, but usually it's an image representing a character with various captions attached. For example: judgmental bookseller ostrich, who is that horrible bookseller we've often met who judges our reading choices.

The problem for Phillips: some of the captions are funny, some are sort of meh, and some are painfully racist and homophobic, not to mention the overarching problem of having one's image used as a symbol for hypocritical self-importance.

Not the author brand anyone is looking for.

The Reddit folks have begun posting messages on Phillips' Facebook page, and the thread at Reddit may have crashed the Smexybooks giveaway featuring Phillips' trading cards.

This is a brand identity problem that most social media experts probably haven't faced before. I don't know if serving takedown notices, if they'd even be effective, would work, since it would be impossible to catch all the captions, and since it would only encourage communities like ReddIt who would mock the takedown notices with yet more captions.

I would hazard a guess that one solution might be for Phillips to publicly state that it's her image, it's being used without her permission, and she'd never say those things - and if you'd like to see a really funny meme, have a look at that ostrich. But I confess, I am flummoxed by this problem for an author and her brand on the internet, and I imagine many a social media expert would be confused, too. And I have a lot of empathy for her, too.

So do you think is the best solution? How would you handle it?

Filed: General Bitching, Random Musings

Tagged: wtfery, meme, carly phillips

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Gah. I meant if I HAPPENED to be a well-known novelist. Oops.

(hangs head in shame, I need to drink more before I post, I guess)
Posted by Jean Lamb on 2012-01-29 22:01:07 If it ever happens to me (and I happen to be a well-known novelist) I would do the interview, along with a picture of me...and the ostrich. But then, I'm weird.
Posted by Jean Lamb on 2012-01-29 22:00:10 [quote]someone would have to be a potential reader. They'd also have to be someone who didn't understand memes, yet comes across the meme anyway. They would have to recognize her in the image, yet not already be a fan. They'd have to care enough to remember this whenever they think of Carly Phillips in the future. They'd also have to find the meme without accidentally reading any information about this scandal.

If such a misunderstanding happened in a romance novel, wouldn't it seem contrived? [/quote]

I have never paid any attention to memes. I could be a potential reader who could be easily turned off by thinking that Ms. Phillips had intentionally lent her image to a meme and was fine with the awful comments and yes, that would affect my buying decisions.

I also wonder why it's perfectly okay to steal photos when it's not okay to do things like plagiarize. A photo is a COPYRIGHTED work. Its copyright is held by the original photographer. Stealing of copyrighted material is a crime.

I never get the jokes that seek to make other people feel smaller or more stupid. I tend to call that cruelty, not humor. It seems that most people doing memes think that cruelty is humorous. Alrightey then. I'm glad I'm not part of that culture. I feel really sorry for Ms. Phillips and would feel attacked in her position. Telling her to just laugh it off because it should be humorous? How patronizing.
Posted by Robin on 2012-01-25 16:51:00 The unfortunate thing about the Internet is that it often behaves like a mob, running from one spectacle to another. The fortunate thing is that it has a short attention span, and the mob quickly moves off to the next conflagration...provided it isn't given any more fuel.

It appears that Ms. Phillips has acknowledged the matter appropriately and now, the wise course is to move on and ignore it. Given the rate at which conversations can dissolved into sh*t flinging fests at Reddit, I wouldn't recommend any more engagement. My guess is that the audience for that meme, isn't the audience for her books. The odds of one of her readers stumbling on a meme image and deciding immediately, "I'll never buy her books again," based solely on that image, are rather low.
Posted by P. Kirby on 2012-01-25 12:09:50 I was going to say that people who don't know what a meme is must be few and far between but apparently I was wrong. I agree that it's largely harmless and that the best thing Ms. Philips can do is clarify and laugh it off since the alternative is the aforementioned Streisand Effect, but also cause... well it's just a meme.
Posted by Liz B on 2012-01-25 10:08:37 It's probably confusing, it's probably disorienting, but I think that any notion that this matter would have lasting or negative consequences is perhaps beanplating.
Posted by dantsea on 2012-01-24 22:58:46 The Santorum "thing" started in 2003 - here's a little history from Dan Savage, whose readers came up with the new definition at http://www.thestranger.com/sea...
Posted by cleo on 2012-01-24 17:34:40 @Sleuth I really think you're underestimating the breadth and depth of audience for both internet memes and romance fiction. I know I'm not alone in that I find a large portion of my reading material through websites. IE, I might see a comment or a review somewhere about an author or book, then I'll go check out that author's website to learn more, then... you get where I'm heading?

Because reading material isn't the only thing I use the internet for. I know what memes are, thanks. I also know that they're not always based in complete fiction. That would be like saying, "Woke up today, Googled self..." was just some made-up phrase that had zero reference to anyone at all.

Like I said, I agree that this is probably just a "laugh it off" scenario. However, I don't agree that it's 100% impervious to negative consequences for the author.
Posted by Cara on 2012-01-24 12:12:02 Wow, that's got to be the most confusing thing I have ever read. And, not at all what I understood a meme to be. So, someone took this authors pic and started tagging it with stupid slogans. Well that kind of sucks. But it took me three websites to understand the SBTB post. Doh!
Posted by Stephanie Takes-Desbiens on 2012-01-24 09:45:19 And...

But the thing about Reddit, if she engages, is that she's gotta stay cool, even if one or two people start needling her. It's juvenile, to say the least, but stuff like that is definitely basically a hazing/rite-of-initiation kind of thing.
Posted by Taylor Reynolds on 2012-01-24 09:39:55 I asked a friend who's a professional internet dude what he would suggest. He says:

She should do an AMA on Reddit and engage with the community. They'll leave her alone. They're just amused at getting to interact with a real-life meme. (AMA = Ask me anything, or basically a Q&A thread.) She's dealing with a male crowd that slants to the young-ish end of the scale, I'd think she'd know how to address that as a romance author and a mom, lol.
Posted by Taylor Reynolds on 2012-01-24 09:38:35 I just looked at Reddit for the first time. Is it a junior high school site?
Posted by Lil on 2012-01-24 09:34:12 Gah! Read the reddit thread. Kudos to all those who stuck up for romance!
Posted by Amanda Garlock on 2012-01-24 09:13:05 Perhaps a meme isn't a personal attack, but the comments the morons posted on smexybooks sure are! Obviously people involved in the community are twelve year old boys who are out to hurt anybody and everybody. What a worthless groups of idiots.
Posted by Guest1 on 2012-01-24 07:10:46 Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Very similar to being teased in grade school, to tell the teasers to back off will only cause them to intensify, but to allow it to continue will be too hurtful.

Worst case, if SOPA passes, she could get Reddit taken down for copyright infringement. Rather drastic though (yes that was a joke)
Posted by Persnickety on 2012-01-24 04:05:23 OMG, that Santorum thing has been going since 2008? How out of the memesville have *I* been.

One of the best courses I taught last year was a Medieval and Medievalism course, in which one of the lecturers described the use of 'the medieval' as basically a meme. Which she explained with LOLcat examples. It was ace.
Posted by FairyKat on 2012-01-24 03:02:16 "Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum has a huge "google" problem, and one of the worst cases of a lack of control over his own internet image you could imagine."

Entirely self-inflicted, and no one should have any sympathy for him. I believe that the SBs may even have 'helped' him with that little Google issue. I know I have as much as possible.
Posted by Ann Somerville on 2012-01-24 02:21:19 In order for this to hurt her sales...

Someone would have to be a potential reader. They'd also have to be someone who didn't understand memes, yet comes across the meme anyway. They would have to recognize her in the image, yet not already be a fan. They'd have to care enough to remember this whenever they think of Carly Phillips in the future. They'd also have to find the meme without accidentally reading any information about this scandal.

If such a misunderstanding happened in a romance novel, wouldn't it seem contrived?
Posted by Daphy on 2012-01-24 01:35:08 As a redditor, I think the idea of Carly Phillips doing an AMA (Ask Me Anything) might be a great way of gaining some fans/goodwill. However, as Elaine notes, frontpaged reddit threads that in any way deal with the subject of women/romance/female stereotypes do all too frequently tend to devolve into a kind of juvenile misogyny. Honestly, some days I love reddit, some days I loathe it.
Posted by Allie on 2012-01-24 00:00:24 I don't want to support the notion of panicking or flouncing or peeing in anyone's cheerios. But I also don't agree that this is "harmless."

No, it may not have been intended to harm Ms. Phillips personally. But the fact of the matter is that she does have a public persona and images of herself are part of that. It's easy to just blow it off and say, "oh, well if someone actually thought those memes were truly representative of her personal opinions or life-views, then they're just dumb-dumbs." In a perfect world where there is no internet wank and we always give people the benefit of the doubt before judging them, sure, right.

But the truth is, had I seen those memes and later saw a publicity photo of her and realized it was the same person, it would lead me to believe there was *some* reason for the relation there, that somewhere, she had to have said or done something that led to this meme, because that *is* often the case.

So yeah, intentional or not, it kind of does have the potential to do harm in this instance. It's more than just someone getting their feelings hurt, it's an unjustly negative association with a product brand.

I like the idea of a reddit interview (dear god, especially after seeing all of the 15-year-old-like remarks and attitudes about the romance genre). And as unfair as it is, I still agree she's better off at the very least just laughing it off. But while that might be the only feasible, non-wanky solution, the meme itself isn't completely "harmless" in this case.
Posted by Cara on 2012-01-23 23:25:52 At least Phillips is lucky that her image and search results for "Carly Phillips" are all associated with her, or a very few non-offensive versions of the meme. The only way people will come across it are by accident, or through funny, non-book related sites. Also, look at it this way, she's hit the internet culture jackpot, like people who make totally random YouTube hits (e.g. Rebecca Black)! She now has a ton of redditers looking at her site, and even if they pretend not to like what they see, they'll still probably buy a few books!

Actually this is a problem that social media experts work on a lot. There is a very famous case right now that is an even more extreme version of Carly Phillip's problem. Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum has a huge "google" problem, and one of the worst cases of a lack of control over his own internet image you could imagine. It's been in the news a lot lately if you are interested.
New York Times: (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09...

Apparently when something like this happens, the best defense is a good offense. Basically, the author's only hope is to become more famous, or more ubiquitous on the internet, than her meme. Or to perpetuate links between her name and the more positive/funny versions of the meme that she prefers. And you can hire people to strategize this kind of thing. Companies, political candidates have to do this all the time. Obama's staff has to work to make sure sites about Obama being Christian are more popular than sites about him being Muslim, for example. (P.S. not trying to be political one way or the other here, just some intersting social media/current events info!)

Anyway, good luck to Carly Phillips (who, btw, I never heard of until this came up... but now am browsing her site! See...?! ANY publicity is GOOD publicity, haha!)
Posted by Amy on 2012-01-23 23:22:30 Carly doesn't need to call a lawyer. She IS a lawyer.
Posted by Becca on 2012-01-23 23:19:52 My sympathies go to Ms. Phillips. I can certainly understand her being upset about this and being concerned with how those images might be seen by some of her readers who don't understand what is being done. Being honest about what she feels and expressing her legitimate concerns is a dignified and admirable response. Noting that the use of the images is unauthorized seems wise.

I've been trying to think of a diplomatic way to disagree with those who've suggested Carly Phillips should just laugh it off and be "a good sport." I'm having trouble coming up with the right words, so I'll just say this: I think being honest is preferable, and no one should have to pretend that they find being the butt of someone else's humor is just fine with them, particularly if the best reason for that pretense is to avoid even more attack. Words matter. The ethical use of them matters as well.

Posted by Terrie on 2012-01-23 23:06:02 I doubt it was initially used to be specific to her. The picture does look like an everyday sort of person that you might meet in the grocery store and it was probably chosen to just be a standin. I think if she does say what she stands for and what she doesn't (and possibly offers some sort of witty alternative) it would tell people that she (the person, not the picture) is in no way related to any of the captions. And at some point it won't be worth it or the captioners will get bored and it'll be obsolete.

I also think there should be a Smart Bitches meme with ridiculous backgrounds from covers and plays on romance stereotypes.
Posted by Emily on 2012-01-23 22:51:00 NO.

Do -not- try takedowns. It's called the Streisand Effect: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/S... . If you try a takedown, it may even work. However, you cannot stop people from talking about and commenting on the takedown, and doing whatever resistance they can (alternate sites, etc). If you want to get a reputation as an old stick-in-the-mud author in a hurry, just try throwing a C&D/takedown around on the Internet when folks are working a gag.

What Mrs. Phillips really needs to do is roll with the joke for now, maybe do a post saying she isn't HAPPY about it, but concede it's the Internet and filled with weird and sometimes dumb things and not go looking at it if it bothers her. Honestly, I don't think this is cool, but my internet instincts tell me the quickest and best way to handle it is to just ignore it and let the Internet meme-machine move on to something else.

(Side note: Memes are really fascinating stuff, from a psychological standpoint. Tecnnically, a meme is any idea (ANY) and how it spreads. Learned behavior, and so on. They have a lot of parallels with genes, in a way.)

Posted by Scrin on 2012-01-23 22:50:43 I just read this for the first time. While I agree with most, I have no idea what a Meme is until I read this particular blog post. (I sort of get it.) Its an avitar icon kind of thing. Right? It also seems like one of those things you intuitively what it is without knowing what its called.
But I do think C. Phillips needs to take a high road that addresses the issue since people who might think the image is affliated with her. Just say some person is using my image without my concent and saying things I don't agree with that person, etc, etc. From the above comment she seems to be doing it.
@Carly Phillips Keep your head held high and stand tall. You did nothing wrong. You don't have to laugh it off; if you don't feel like it. Just be strong in your denial. You have my deepest sympathies.
Posted by Emily on 2012-01-23 22:34:59 I don't get memes. I don't really understand what they are, or why people persist in sending me links to them. There are a lot of things I don't get. Facebook, Puccini, why photography is an art, the slogan t-shirts described in the Kleypas give-away... I know these are failings on my part, but I have a lot of failings, and I'm pretty sure I'll be dead before I get around to figuring out many of them. Certainly I'm prepared to die without knowing why memes exist.
But for what it's worth, I wouldn't ever look at one of those and suppose it reflected Carly Phillip's views, or was a personal attack on her. If it were my image being used I would not be thrilled (assuming I ever realized) but my name and image aren't a brand, so there's no reason I couldn't simply ignore it. Ms. Phillips is in the unfortunate position of having to care what people say about her, and I haven't a clue how one copes with that.
Posted by kkw on 2012-01-23 22:24:31 I can't help but point out that every time some jackass spouts off about why many writers (and most women authors) use pen names on the internet and elsewhere, and why so many of us are photography-phobic, *this* is the reason. Not that men's privacy isn't violated too, but the hate and misogyny is so much worse for women who engage in any kind of public interaction.

My sympathy to Ms Phillips. This must be very painful to go through, and being told to laugh it off can't be helping.
Posted by Ann Somerville on 2012-01-23 21:08:40 I took a look at her facebook page. It's clear none of her fans have any idea what a meme is. It's a pity she's so deeply hurt by this. A meme is not a personal attack on the person whose photo it uses, and I wish she understood this, so perhaps she would not be quite so distraught.

If anything, I feel this is going to HELP her image (unless she throw a tantrum). After all, no one is actually attacking her or her image, and meanwhile all her supporters are rallying around her (and comforting her) to protect her from the imaginary "bullies". That's solidarity, and shit.
Posted by Slueth on 2012-01-23 20:53:19 Thank you for all of the support and advice. It really means a lot. I do have a great sense of humor and can take a joke -- but it's upsetting to think that people who don't know me personally or who aren't of the Meme generation may recognize my picture and think those comments reflect my beliefs. That said, this has been around for the last year and Reddit editors as well as others have explained Memes (I admit to being ignorant before this surfaced last year). I have explained my concerns to them on my FB Fan page where they posted, just so we all understand each other, and have stated I will delete any direct links to the Meme on my FB page. I have also publicly posted that the photo was an unauthorized use (thank you for that advice I read here). Again, I appreciate all the support I've received from the Romance community including writers, readers, bloggers, and any one else I've inadvertently neglected to mention. And now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion of good books! :)
Best,
Carly
Posted by Carlyphillips on 2012-01-23 20:51:20 The more I think about it, the more I think the Reddit folks above (hi folks!) have a good plan: if Phillips does an "Ask me anything" and laughs about it, and through her own charm differentiates herself from the image of the "suburban mom" character, she could do a lot to diffuse the conflict. That would make a collaborative best outcome, I think.

Posted by SB Sarah on 2012-01-23 20:16:00 Why did I read the comment thread at reddit? WHYYYY?

*weeping in corner for humanity*

Seriously, y'all. I feel sick. I guess it's just been too long that I've been hanging around the parts of the internet where people are mature and actually know better.

As for what she should do, I agree with the idea of just laughing it off & using it as possible publicity. Hell, if it were me, I'd make more memes using the same image, poking fun at the idiocy and ignorance of it all. :/ Bleh.
Posted by Cara on 2012-01-23 20:07:50 @SB Sarah - as I thought! I had a moment of "oh, dear, but if people who don't know see this & it's their first exposure, how will they react to 'meme' in the future?" but then I figured it's not a big deal and just wanted to verify.

I'll add that I think the suggestion to get a new publicity photo done is a very important one and something she should schedule soon if she hasn't already. I'd probably move it up a ranking on Elaine's list.
Posted by ?? keri ?? on 2012-01-23 19:43:52 @Keri: Yes, I was absolutely giving a simplified definition for this post to try to explain this particular phenomenon. Memes are definitely more complex than that.
Posted by SB Sarah on 2012-01-23 19:18:13 Sorry, redditor, but having your face plastered on images where you're labeled all sorts of bigotry? Not good fun. But if you so by and free with? Instead of A-user and another redditor? Go post your pics, and label them, let us know where they are and we'll join in. :)
Posted by shiloh walker on 2012-01-23 19:09:26 I love that ostrich <3
Posted by Corrie on 2012-01-23 18:55:20 I saw that this morning. I'm a redditor and a romance reader. I love reddit, but there's no denying large parts of it are filled with juvenile misogyny. I think the best response would be to a) do not directly engage. b) acknowledge the meme in a 'good sport' manner (in a blog or facebook post or some such), and say something like 'of course those aren't my views'. c) have a new publicity photo taken.
Posted by Elaine on 2012-01-23 18:48:45 Ugh! And I just realized "his behavior" could be misconstrued. What I meant was, "Steve" was a private citizen able to position himself as just one of the crowd; Ms. Phillips is a professional approaching this as a business issue. Nothing wrong with that, but Reddit is likely to react...poorly. For certain values of poorly. Values that include mockery and cussin'.
Posted by Jessica D on 2012-01-23 18:45:26 Redditor here as well. One of the best ways to deal with reddit is to do an IAMA. Basically, an open interview with redditors. Most things at reddit are all in good fun. IAMA's have an amazingly positive experience.
Posted by another redditor on 2012-01-23 18:45:23 Redditor here. Judging by Carly's posts on facebook I conclude that she's totally oblivious to the internet culture this meme has come from - and probably oblivious to what a meme is, too.

Her image was used, like so many others, simply because her appearance in it roughly fit a certain archetype. The meme has existed for well over a year, but it seems only now has someone on Reddit actually realized *who* is in the picture.

The best way for her to handle this is to just roll with it and see the funny side, but unfortunately, judging by her facebook posts so far, she is not well versed in the ways of the internet.

Hopefully she doesn't start calling lawyers - if she does that, she'll trigger the dreaded Streisand effect.
Posted by A_User on 2012-01-23 18:37:56 Interesting. I'm at work still, so I can't go dig up the links, but if I recall correctly, Reddit responded with much more sympathy when the real identity of Scumbag Steve was revealed. Might make for interesting comparison regarding whether this is a response to his behavior, his gender, or Redditors' attitude toward romance novels.
Posted by Jessica D on 2012-01-23 18:34:34 A meme is a brain virus, conveyed visually. :)
Posted by ChaoticChris on 2012-01-23 18:33:14 Best thing to do would be to laugh it off. Since they've (weirdly) just realized that it's not a stock photo like a lot of the other memes, it'll be A Thing for about 48 hours and then fade back into random usage.
Posted by alysonli on 2012-01-23 18:13:39 At the top of a thread calling Carly Phillips a pornographic novelist there is a reddit notice telling people that they should notify the moderators of any inappropriate/inaccurate posts.

Irony FAIL, we haz it.
Posted by Lori on 2012-01-23 18:11:10 Poor Carly Phillips! That just sucks. I agree that taking the high road is likely to be the best response, although perhaps she could do a blog post or something clarifying that her image was used without permission and that she disagrees with most of the "advice" connected with meme. Getting into it with the boyz at Reddit is not a good idea, but a sane and sensible response statement would be helpful if anyone did recognize the photo and wondered how Ms Phillips felt about it.
Posted by SonomaLass on 2012-01-23 18:08:40 It's just weird. Make a blanket statement that you dislike their use of your photo. It'll fade away sooner if you don't make anything but a single, classy response. I'm sure I don't know who any of the people in any other memes are, either. (well, except Obama and other political figures. Even then, I don't always know who they are)
Posted by PhyllisLaatsch on 2012-01-23 18:07:34 Good advice. At this point she needs to embrace it, laugh about it, and make it into her '3rd arm'. It's publicity. She didn't authorize her picture being there, but it is... so what can you do? Weird that it was just now noticed.
Posted by Kristi Davis on 2012-01-23 18:06:17 (Quick note: you mean the image IS being used without her permission, yes? End knee-jerk proofreading superpower.)

Keri's quite right -- any engagement with the Reddit thread comments is going to turn into a massive, soul-shriveling time suck that Ms. Phillips sees no benefits from, tangible or otherwise. There was a similar problem in feminist blog circles with a photo being used in the Privilege-Denying Dude meme. Like this one, it has a few funny iterations and then promptly turns hateful. The issue with PDD was solved when a feminist dude offered his own likeness for the meme with full knowledge and consent. I can't see anything like this happening here.

An alternative solution is to do what authors do with negative publicity: own it, discuss it with grace and humor, and keep writing excellent books.
Posted by Olivia Waite on 2012-01-23 18:04:02 I think it's possible to embrace a few instances of the meme (which, in this case, is pretty universal to anyone who's met that certain kind of suburban soccer mom) but, in pointing it out, have a serious statement saying what you do or don't support about it. That way you're not making enemies of the internet at large for killing their fun but you are taking a principled stance against people who are racist, homophobic, femmphobic, etc.

It's all about participating in the conversation and keeping your nose clean, I think. Information's much more readily available now and part of that is that it's more raw. We need to be honest and sure when we're talking to anyone in regards to our work, pictures, or statements.
Posted by Daniel A Samuelson on 2012-01-23 17:58:44 It really helps, I think, to know that while you can find some good on Reddit, a lot of it is a pit of horrible misogyny and racism and tons of other prejudices (but I'd say those two are the most common - unsurprising on the Internet, I suppose). This is something where the only way to handle it is to ignore it and not react (at least, not publicly). I suspect any reaction or trying to do something about it will only stir things up and make it worse...Redditors are like Anonymous in that way.

(Also, I'm thinking you're simplifying matters for the purpose of this post, but... a meme is so much more than an image macro like that. Still, the site *is* "quickmeme" - a lot of them I've found to be fairly offensive or stupid, so I don't browse there anymore.)
Posted by ?? keri ?? on 2012-01-23 17:39:51 Personally, I think most people that run into memes already know what they are (since most of the time, when you see a meme, it's on a website *specifically for* memes, like memebase). And anyone who knows what memes are, are fully aware it's just a picture, and that the captions have nothing to do with the real-life person - they're just a face attached to a punchline.

I can see a few people (like her fans) running into the picture and being offended before they know what's going on. But not enough to make a problem.
Posted by Slueth on 2012-01-23 17:39:17 Or... hey...I dunno if it would work, but you can always see if romance writers can flood it with the actual truth. I'm Carly Phillips and I wrote this book. I'm Carly Phillips and these people don't have permission to use my image. I'm Carly Phillips-check out my website to learn the real me.
Posted by shiloh walker on 2012-01-23 17:38:51 Shoot, I dunno, but I'd maybe at least try a takedown. The image itself would be copyrighted, I believe, and unless permission was received to use it? She may have a chance with that. Poor Carly.
Posted by shiloh walker on 2012-01-23 17:37:18

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