570. Sex Positivity with Lana Ferguson and Rachel Lynn Solomon

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hi there! Welcome to episode number 570 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and my guests today are Lana Ferguson and Rachel Lynn Solomon. In Rachel Lynn Solomon’s newest book, Business or Pleasure, and in Ferguson’s new book, The Nanny, both authors engage directly with sex positivity and honest intimacy through the characters and the plot. I’m going to let the authors describe their own books, but to give you a hint, we are talking about sex lessons because the heroine is teaching the hero how to be better at sex after a bad one-night stand. There’s Only One Bed and OnlyFans and autonomous sex work, and the whole conversation is really about how romance encourages people to own their own sexualities and advocate for their pleasure and satisfaction. This episode was so much fun to record, and I hope you enjoy listening to it just as much.

I want to say thank you to Kristin Cipolla, the publicist at Penguin Random House, for the incredible pitch and for setting up this interview.

Hello and thank you to our Patreon community who keep me going and make sure every episode has a transcript compiled by garlicknitter. Howdy, garlicknitter! [Hello! – gk]

I have a compliment this week. This compliment is for Julianne, and it is from me and from Zeb and Buzz, my canine assistants:

Most living beings trust you instantly because they can tell you are a caring, careful, and always, always kind person.

If you have supported the show with a pledge of any amount, thank you. You are keeping me going, you are keeping us in transcripts, and you’re supporting the show directly. If you would like to do the same, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

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All right, are you ready to have a truly fun conversation about sex positivity and fearless intimacy? On with the podcast with Lana Ferguson and Rachel Lynn Solomon.

Lana Ferguson: I’m Lana Ferguson, and now that I’ve officially changed my title with the government during tax season I can say that I’m an author!

Sarah: Woohoo!

Lana: [Laughs] And I write horny novels that hopefully make people laugh! I’m a serial thrifter, a Lord of the Rings fanatic, and a Corgi owner, and that pretty much just sums me up, honestly.

Sarah: Horny books that make people laugh. That’s, that’s a great tagline; I hope that’s on your website, like –

Lana: I think, no, actually, my website says, You can’t spell romance without moaner, because I’m a child.

Sarah: Oh, even better!

Lana: [Laughs]

Rachel Lynn Solomon: Yeah, well, I don’t know how I can follow that up, but I will try!

I am Rachel Lynn Solomon, and I write both YA and adult romantic comedies, always with Jewish protagonists, usually with some kind of mental health element. I spent most of my life in Seattle until two years ago, when I moved to Amsterdam, so now I am just kind of stumbling through, you know, cultural differences and struggling to learn Dutch, which everyone here says is one of the hardest languages to learn, and they are right.

Sarah: Oh yeah. I have heard that Dutch is incredibly difficult to learn.

So I am really, really, really excited to have this conversation, because both of your books deal with healthy intimacy and sex positivity. So we’re going to talk about horny people, and hopefully horny people who are laughing. Lana, can you tell me about your book The Nanny? How do you describe it to people who ask, Oh, you wrote a book? What’s it about? Which is, of course, the moment when my brain goes completely blank, so if I just, if I just totally erased your consciousness, I’m really sorry.

Lana: Oh gosh, yeah, no. Every – I especially hate when they’re like, Oh, give me the elevator pitch! And it’s like, those are supposed to be two sentences; I can’t describe anything in two sentences.

So The Nanny is kind of a modern twist on second-chance romances? It’s about Cassie, a grad student who has just been let go from her job due to downsizing and in desperate need of another due to school and bills, what have you. We learn early on that Cassie is also an ex-OnlyFans girlie who got out of the business because she got too close to a subscriber, and because of that she can’t really bring herself to go back to it, despite the potential solution to her money problems. So when she finds an ad for a live-in nanny situation that pays like a beaucoup of money it seems like the perfect solution, until she meets her new employer, who is a hot, single dad named Ai-, Aiden Reid – [laughs] – almost forgot my character’s name. Now there is sexual chemistry between these two from the first meeting, but both are determined to ignore it because, well, Cassie needs this job and Aiden needs Cassie, even if it gets harder and harder to ignore. But, but it becomes especially hard – pun intended – when Cassie finds out she knows Aiden a lot better than she initially thought since, as it turns out, Aiden is the same subscriber that “got away.” And you can kind of imagine what sort of shenanigans ensue after that? Hint, hint: steamy ones? And that’s basically the book.

Sarah: What are some of the misconceptions that people have about OnlyFans? Because I know that you mention the name and people just go, Oh! Like, it’s, it’s sort of like the new shorthand that Playboy or Penthouse used to be.

Lana: Sure, right. I think a lot of the misconceptions really surround around how people view it in terms of, like, morality, I guess? Like, the same thing with any kind of pornographic content; like, you mention OnlyFans, you mention porn, and automatically it’s like, Oh, hush, hush, we shouldn’t be talking about this.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lana: But with OnlyFans, for me, I, I love the platform because, you know, a lot of, well, porn sites exploit their content creators. They’re –

Sarah: Yes.

Lana: – they’re just monsters, whereas OnlyFans kind of puts that power back into the hands of the creator, like the money is, they, they control their experience, they control their profits. It’s just a lot safer and more of an empowering space, so it’s honestly great for the industry, and I, I love it. I, I am a subscriber, so – [laughs] – I love it.

Sarah: That’s brilliant! I actually had a pitch a while ago: OnlyFans decided that they apparently at one point wanted to branch out beyond sexual content, and, and they were like, Would, would your podcast host – that would be me – consider doing an OnlyFans? And I was like, I’m the most boring person. There is literally no one who will pay to watch me edit podcasts and quilt. No one is going to ask for this. Like, what are – no. There’s just no way!

Rachel: No!

Lana: I don’t know about that. What I’ve learned about the internet is if there is something being shown, there is someone out there that will watch it.

Sarah: That is absolutely true! [Laughs]

Lana: So you never know. You never know.

Sarah: Maybe, maybe that’s what I should do.

Rachel: There is someone out there with a quilting kink that is just waiting for this to happen.

[Laughter]

Lana: They are just ready and waiting for you and your – I was about to say knitting needles, but do you use, what do you use to quilt? I –

Sarah: No, you use – I was going to say, somebody’s going to be like, Uh, uh, I’ll pledge if you show me your seam ripper –

Lana: [Laughs]

Sarah: – which is basically a hook with like a lase-, with a, a razor blade?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Show me your seam ripper. Ooh, is that a stiletto? [Gasps] Wind the bobbin! [Laughs]

Rachel: Like, good-bye bodice rippers; we are now into seam rippers.

Sarah: [Gasps] Oh my gosh! I’m going to, I’m going to go to, go out to my sewing machine, which is in my dining room, and I’m going to be telling my kids about this, and they’re going to be so horrified! I love every minute of this plan! [Laughs]

Lana: What do you think about me starting an OnlyFans? Just open with that. Like…

Sarah: Yeah! I’m just going to put a camera here in the dining room and show my hands.

[Laughter]

Sarah: You know, when I mess something up and I rip the stitches out, people are going to just start, you know, tipping me. It’s going to be –

Lana: Tip, tip, tip, tip! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my gosh, I love this entire business model. You know, my horoscope this morning said, you know, a new business opportunity could arrive today, and apparently it just did! A-mazing! Thank you!

Rachel: …being on the internet…

Sarah: Ah yeah, baby.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Rachel, I want to also ask you about Business or Pleasure, your upcoming book, and I know this is the question that makes your mind go blank, but what is your favorite, like, synopsis or, or summary of this novel when someone walks up to you and says, in English or in Dutch, What’s your book about?

Rachel: Depends if they’re related to me. If they’re related to me I’m like, I don’t have a book coming out this year.

Lana: [Laughs]

Rachel: What are you, what are you talking about? If, if that condition is met, if, if I don’t know them, I have a super short pitch, which is, is just sex lessons where she’s the one teaching him? And then I have a slightly longer one, which is that Business or Pleasure is a romantic comedy about a ghostwriter who has a terrible one-night stand with a C-list actor, just completely disastrous in every possible way. She has no idea who he is, and then the next day she learns she has been hired to work on his memoir, and their partnership becomes even more complicated when he asks for her help in the bedroom. And the, the hero, the actor, he was famous about a decade ago. He starred on a supernatural, like, werewolf TV show, and it’s, to this day, has been the biggest thing he’s ever done, so his main way of making a living is he travels from con to con, poses for photos, signs autographs, and people just go wild for him. So my main character, my ghostwriter, Chandler, she is tagging along on the convention circuit as they go all across the country to all these different conventions, and in the evenings, after they’ve, you know, chatted about their book and, and done the, the panels at the convention, they go back to one of their hotel rooms and they have a sex lesson. [Laughs] And so it is really just Only One Bed over and over and over is, is another fun way of pitching it.

Sarah: Only One Bed over and over and over. Somebody will, when they, when this, when this goes live, somebody will have just hit Pause and be like, Excuse me, I have to go. I have to go right now. Please excuse me.

Lana: It would be me. It would be me if I was the listener, because I was already like, Like, I’m obsessed with this book.

[Laughter]

Sarah: And the convention circuit is real, right? Like, I have read that there are actors who can make a really good living going to conventions, doing a couple of panels, and then like a VIP photo hour or whatever. Like, you can make like five figures doing that.

Rachel: That’s literally like –

Lana: Actually, that’s what the cast of Lord of the Rings is doing now. [Laughs] They’re all just conning.

Rachel: There was even like a Holland Comic Con, and I was kind of shocked by, they had, like, Joffrey from Game of Thrones. They had like a bunch of, like, relatively big people, and I’m like, Oh, I guess this, this is just what they’re doing to make money now; so I don’t know what else Joffrey is doing these days. But yeah, I actually, I feel like I had, I had this idea for a while, because I’ve always been really intrigued by that kind of career. Like, I went to, for a while I went to Emerald City Comic Con every year, and I was really into Buffy; that was my big thing; and I remember going to panels and waiting in line to, I was actually too shy to ever, like, wait in line and get an autograph, but I would wait while my friend waited in line, and just thinking about how I’ve never seen those actors in anything else and that that must be a, just a really interesting kind of like deviation from the regular Hollywood life.

Sarah: And a way to keep that job a paying job.

Rachel: Right! I think it can be pretty decent money, and I also, when I was writing this book, you know, there are obviously a lot of celebrity romances out there, so I always love to read a lot of books with actor heroes, and I always think the majority of them are about very A-listers? He’s the, you know, ultimate leading man type, and I really love writing beta heroes and making this guy like this C-list actor who is just, he’s, yeah, he did the thing ten years ago, and now he does some Hallmark Christmas movies, even though he’s Jewish. This is automatically – [laughs] – this is what he’s getting asked to do these days. This was my way of making him beta, like, even in his career. I just did not want him to be super famous. For most of the book he doesn’t get recognized, although I will say there’s one, one of my favorite scenes, where they are about to go to a sex toy shop, and he starts putting on, like, sunglasses, and she’s like, Are you serious? Why are you doing this? He’s like, Oh, fine, I’ll take them off. And of course that’s where the cashier recognizes him and wants a photo.

Lana: ‘Cause she wants to put him on like her celebrity wall of fame?

Rachel: Yeah, of course! [Laughs] That she doesn’t have anyone else on!

Lana: …yesterday, so, like, it’s completely on my mind! [Laughs] It’s like I just lived it.

Sarah: So one of the goals with both of your books is to really convey and explore healthy intimacy between the characters, and obviously one of the foundational ways to do that is communication; hence the Only One Bed over and over and over and, and in your case, Lana, I really, we really want to bone but we should not bone. What are some of the ways that you each approached that in your stories? ‘Cause I know it’s, it’s something that had to be sort of present as, as you were writing and revising, but what were some of the ways you approached that in your story?

Rachel: Yeah! Well, I mean, obviously communication has to be number one, and end of chapter two, most of chapter three just, like, the most cringe sex scene you will probably ever read in a romance novel, or, I mean, maybe not, but, you know, you go to romance novels for, like, this fantasy, escapism, being swept away. That is not what happens at the beginning of this book.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: And when – [laughs] – when my main character, when Chandler gets into this situation where she has kind of joked about helping Finn out in bed after she admits that their night together wasn’t amazing and he kind of gets some feedback from past partners, she is, is really taking control of the situation and kind of formulating different lesson plans for each time that they’re together, and communication is like the whole, you know, central focus of it. Like, they can’t have that scene without communication and talking really openly about, like, what – I mean, first of all, like, anatomy. I mean, they kind of have to have an anatomy lesson, but just them speaking very honestly about, you know, things that feel good, things that don’t, things that – also being just like a hundred caveats that everyone is different.

But I also, one thing that a, a critique partner mentioned to me actually is, one thing that is kind of a, considered a, a healthy, normal part of a lot of relationships is getting like sex toys and other, you know, kink that you don’t read a lot of in romance novels because they’re always about, like, the beginning of a relationship? And typically that happens later when you’re much more comfortable with someone. So in this book I feel like I was able to explore some of that because there was this experimental, educational component? So, you know, like I said earlier, they go to a sex shop; they use a vibrator; there is some, like, light other kink toward the end of the book.

So I think just giving the characters freedom to, like, talk about absolutely everything and, and making it clear that, yeah, they, like, they are just both really comfortable with each other, and they feel safe with each other pretty early on. Yeah, I mean, I hope it comes across as healthy. I, I’ve been tagged in interviews that instead, like, wow, this was a really healthy relationship for a romance novel! And I’m like, Ooh, man, I don’t know what kind of romance novels you’re reading, but there are – [laughs] – definitely a lot of healthy relationships out there!

Sarah: And sex lessons is a very, very old trope, and this completely reverses that because clearly he’s never had to work too hard, and now he has to, you know, level up.

Rachel: Right! And I feel like that’s probably true of a lot of, like, very attractive people in, in the public eye, perhaps? But of course we would never hear about, right, but, you know, someone gets into a position where they just, yeah, like, they are a certain level of being where they maybe don’t need to work for something, or they – and this is no, no dig at their partners, but, like, a lot of people don’t feel comfortable expressing when they’re not having a good time. So if they, if he never had the kind of relationship where both peop-, where communication was just established is something that is normal and okay and fun and sexy, then I, I think it is totally possible that he could have gotten to this point at age, you know, thirty-five and he, like, yeah, has probably, a woman has probably never had an orgasm with him.

Sarah: Yeah. Was it fun to write the bad sex?

Rachel: So, it was, but I was also writing it with, like, my hands over my eyes, and actually my first draft of it, my editor could barely read it. It was so painful. There was like, I actually spent a lot of time googling like the worst dirty talk, and just got really deep in all these Reddit threads. It was too much, and my editor was like, We really need to tone this down, because you want it to be bad, but we also need to like him? It was like, Oh yeah, that’s a good point.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: But it did feel like a bit of a challenge to start with someone who’s that inept, but then you still want, you’re still rooting for them, right? Like, you still want to believe that the, the, find him, like, intriguing in some way.

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: But yeah, so it could have been worse. I mean, when, anyone reading chapter three, it could have been worse!

Sarah: Lana, what about you? How did you approach healthy intimacy with your characters? ‘Cause your book deals overtly with paid sex work. How did you approach healthy sexuality between your characters?

Lana: My entire book is centered around an ex-content creator for OnlyFans, which, as an aside, I loved being able to write, because it gave me an opportunity to really cast sex work in a more positive way than it’s been in the media in the past?

Sarah: Absolutely.

Lana: I loved writing a heroine that not only embraced her own sexuality and owned her body and everything she chose to do with it, but I loved that she also made the internal decision not to let anyone else make her feel inferior for it? Like, not even the person she’s falling for.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lana: You know, no spoilers, but there’s definitely a moment where Cassie fears being judged by Aiden, but, you know, inside she’s already come to terms with the possibility, even preparing herself to walk away from him because she resolves that she wouldn’t want someone that made her feel less for her decisions. And I think that that level of comfort with herself and her choices depicts a healthy accepts, acceptance of one’s sexuality –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Lana: – in all shapes and forms, which can be so hard to do. You know, ultimately I hope that this kind of positive acceptance of the spectrum of a person’s sexuality might make it easier for someone to accept themselves in their own, you know, sexuality.

But, like Rachel said, also communication, hundred percent, is key in any relationship, I think? I tried to write both my characters, but especially Cassie, as being open to talk about what they wanted from each other, because also, like Rachel said, it is very hard to ask a partner, I think, especially for women. You know, we’re kind of, you know, trained from early on not to talk about these things, so then we get into these relationships, and it’s so hard to just ask for what we want, because it feels like we should just be enjoying it from the get-go, you know. And, you know, from their first encounter, Cassie isn’t afraid to tell Aiden what she needs from him to enjoy their experience, and Aiden isn’t at all put out to give it to her. You know, he even asks right from the get-go, and I love a man that asks – [laughs] – because to me that means he’s more turned on by giving her pleasure than finding his own, which his so incredibly sexy to me in a man?

Sarah: Extremely.

Lana: Right. And then, you know, just kind of as like a tiny little – [laughs] – I also got to write a seventy-something side character who is openly sexually active, and she’s not afraid to talk about it, and it was one of my favorite parts of the entire book, because I absolutely think that sex is something to be celebrated, and I don’t think there should be an expiration date on that? I kind of got to poke at sex positivity in a few different little ways, and it, it was just fun all around.

Sarah: No pun intended at your poking –

Rachel: I love that.

Sarah: – poking at –

Lana: [Laughs] I love poking things, so –

Sarah: Poke. One of the things that you said that I found so interesting is the, is the idea that she is afraid that he will reject her because she can, you know, she’s been doing OnlyFans. He was her subscriber. He was –

Lana: Right.

Sarah: – he was actively supporting this endeavor, a supporter of this business, an early investor, if you will, and he would judge her, and on one hand you can sort of see the irony there, but on the other hand I can totally see that happening! Like, Oh! Oh, you’re a sex worker! Oh my gosh. Like, you, you, you were a subscriber, but she’s the one doing something wrong?

Lana: I, I, I literally wrote a whole essay on this. [Laughs] There’s just like such a disparity between men and women. Like, men are automatically, basically just expected to enjoy and indulge in pornographic materials, but women are still kind of, there’s that stigma to keep yourself pure, so even if a man is going home and watching porn on the weekends, if he finds out, you know, that you’re doing it? Suddenly you’re, like, a villain in this story. It, it, I’m, it just happens all the time, and it is a double standard, and it, it’s sad that she had to be worried about it.

Sarah: Yeah. And it, and it makes me think of that very familiar accusation about romance, that it’s “porn for women.” Porn is porn for women; we can all watch the porn; it’s fine –

Lana: Yeah, like –

Sarah: – but that’s not what romance is.

Lana: – I don’t, honestly, I don’t get my rocks from romance novels, and I’ve read some, like, slutty romance novels.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Lana: The dirtier the better for me. Like, I am a goblin; like, if you tell me that it’s disgusting I want to buy it, but I, I don’t even, I don’t get my rocks from that, you know what I mean? Like, if I want to have like some, you know, “me time”? I watch porn! I know what I like and I have tabs saved and – [laughs] – you know, it, I don’t feel like anybody should be ashamed of that.

Sarah: I completely agree. I do also have to ask though: you said you wrote an essay about this. Where, where is this essay? Where?

Lana: Yeah, it wasn’t very long. It was just me basically ranting – [laughs] – about the double standard, because it does drive me insane.

Sarah: Ooh! I found it on Fangirlish. I just know that if I did not put a link to that in the show notes, I would get email: where is that essay? Is that essay somewhere? I want to read the essay.

[Laughter]

Sarah: How could you not link to that? Sarah, you’ve broken my heart! Yeah, so I have to have the link. I have found, I have found it; fear not, it’ll be in the show notes.

Now, one of the things that I find so interesting about this whole, this whole concept is that a lot of the discussions about sex positivity and about communicating intimacy, it reminds me a lot – do you remember about fifteen, twenty years ago, readers talking about writing, about readers talking about romances where if it wasn’t obvious that a condom was being used, they were super unnerved by that? And then authors were talking about, Well, it’s kind of hard and awkward to write a condom, but I figure out a way to do it, and –

Lana: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – I don’t think it’s necessary; just assume that everyone’s wearing protection. And I’m like, Nonononono! Child in the ‘90s; grew up during the AIDS crisis. I need to know that there was a crinkle. I need to know about the foil packet –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – and the crinkle and the condom, and you can talk about dealing with – like, put it all in there – no pun intended – because I need to know that it’s there, ‘cause I know my own frame of reference. Now we’re talking about these wide experiences of sex and how to have good sex, and, like you’ve both said, everyone likes different things and how that all comes down to talking about what you want. And especially hetero romances feature, often feature a stereotype that the hero knows the heroine’s body better than she does?

Lana or Rachel: Mm.

Sarah: I have run into that a whole bunch of times.

Lana: [Laughs] Which is just hilarious.

Sarah: Right?! Like, no, that’s, there, there is literally no – [sputters] – no, just absolutely no. And I understand the fantasy of it; like, I understand the underpinnings of this, this particular trope that shows up so often? Like, I don’t have to worry about managing anything because my partner knows me better than I do, and I’m going to have a great time – which is not how it works in reality. I personally, as a reader, I love the intimacy that’s formed by characters talking about what works for them. Partially because I love dialogue. If people are talking, I am reading. That is my favorite thing, so if you’re talking about sex and what works for you, that’s even better! So how do you view the evolution of sex positivity in romance and in your books? Please just say as much as you like here.

Lana: So I, I loved this question when you sent it over because, you know, the depiction of the alpha male, which was the golden standard for romance novels, you know, like fifteen years ago; like big, growly, you’re going to do what I say; and you know, what I mean by that is the kind of man that borderlines asshole?

Sarah: Yes!

Lana: Goes hand-in-hand with the I-know-what-you-need-more-than-you-what-you-need man, like you were talking about. You know, we all know the type, and, and don’t get me wrong: sometimes in the right setting this can be so hot, but I also think that sometimes this character archetype can delve into internalized misogyny territory. There are just so many women within the realm of hetero romances that have become used to being told by men what they want that they’ve started to believe that only a man can tell them what they want, and subsequently only a man can give it to them. You know, that’s not to say there’s anything wrong with being attracted to that type of character or that sort of man. I mean, I’m a pillow princess, admittedly; I like being taken care of? [Laughs] There’s nothing wrong with that.

Sarah: I almost just spit water all over my desk.

[Laughter]

Rachel: I, I saw it!

Lana: I am proud of it. Listen, I don’t want to do any work. I’m proud to admit that – [laughs] – but, you know when it gets to a point where we’re romanticizing a man knowing our bodies better than we do, and the only available source of desire and pleasure, it sets a dangerous precedent, and I say that because if we are not expecting a man to talk to us about what we want and to meet us halfway about what we need sexually or even try to give us what we need, then how can we expect them to do that on their own? It’s, it feels like a vicious cycle that can lead to a lot of other repercussions, so ultimately, as we’ve been saying, I think communication is something that is entirely important, and it’s something that should be established immediately between couples, whether they’re real or fictional. Establishing a good line of communication from day one is paramount to having a healthy, long relationship, I think, and that definitely extends to the bedroom.

I know a lot of times we’ll hear people say that it’s “not just about sex” and “sex isn’t everything,” but I would argue that it’s at least one of the most important things, because sexual compatibility is a huge part of romantic relationships; you know, not of all, of course. There, there are plenty of people who don’t desire or need sex for a myriad of valid reasons, but –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lana: – you know, for those that do, sexual compatibility is oftentimes the spark or the first thing that establishes a connection, even if it’s as innocent as simple attraction, so if that right off the bat is not experienced and shared with a healthy lot of communication, I think it could lead to all sorts of other problems like internalized resentment, dissatisfaction with your partner – just all sorts of problems.

So, yes, I think that communication is important in every aspect of a relationship, but especially in a sexual way, because being comfortable enough with your partner to ask for things and to try new things, you know, not being afraid of voicing your wants and needs, speaks to a healthy relationship, and that’s what we should allow ourselves to expect, even in a fictional setting.

And, and that’s all to say I like to write characters who aren’t afraid to communicate what does and doesn’t work sexually. I like heroines who openly let their partners know what they need to have a good sexual experience, and I like male leads that aren’t afraid to give it to them, to be instructed. Like I said earlier, I especially love when a male lead asks what their partner needs preemptively. Sex is absolutely a duet of sorts, I think, not a solo activity, and if both persons aren’t in tune with each other, then the whole thing gets thrown off? If it were only about one person running the show, they might as well just get up and go masturbate. [Laughs]

Sarah: Right! Absolutely! And, and there’s a massive distance between the i-, like, I once read a book where the hero could tell that the heroine was not a virgin because of how she smelled? She, she smelled like she had experience?

[Laughter]

Sarah: And I was like, What does that even smell like? What is that like? What, what does that even mean? Like, I don’t even understand.

Rachel: Was it a paranormal romance?…

Sarah: No, it was a historical! He could tell she was not untouched or something. I was like, Oh, come on! Fuck’s sake!

Lana: You need –

Rachel: Oh my God.

Lana: – you need to sell that, sir. That’s a skill that someone’s paying for out there. [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s like a new Febreze scent, right?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Fresh Unvirgin.

Lana: Yeah, a Touch of Virgin…

Sarah: Right? But it, it creates this very awful distance between this idealized version of sex and the reality of sex, which is that it’s weird and it’s messy, and you have to communicate, and you have to talk about things that are, are very intimate and difficult, whereas the reality is, is so individual and personal and the, and the idealized version is that, like, you know, he gets his, his erect penis within, you know, five country miles and she’s going to have an orgasm.

[Laughter]

Lana: I wish!…That man would be married down so fast!

Sarah: Yes. He’s probably the one who can tell you’re not a virgin because he had –

Lana or Rachel: Yeah!

Sarah: – a boner and everyone around him just swooned! [Laughs]

Lana: Like the Mothman of, of male hetero heroes; he’s out there somewhere.

Sarah: Right? Rachel, what about you? How do you view the evolution of sex positivity in romance and specifically in your books?

Rachel: So much of what Lana said is definitely spot-on and, like, absolutely how, how I feel, and, like, I don’t want to take any digs at alpha heroes, because I’ve seen plenty of them, and they really are kind of the bedrock of the genre, because we love that, and it, you know, I think women were so drawn to romance because they weren’t getting anything that was catered to them in that specific way where they could have this kind of, those kind of fantasies. But for me, I’ve just always been drawn to a beta hero; you know, someone who doesn’t have to prove himself and isn’t always in dominant control of the situation. And I just find something, there’s something very hot to me about, like, an awkward fumbling guy, like, very earnest and open to learning, and especially when you can kind of unbutton that persona and get to, you know, the real person underneath? To me, that is like magic when it comes to a sex scene.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Rachel: And even just to get, you know, like, slightly personal, I mean, for me, romance novels have really been a guidebook. Like, I learned about my body through romance novels. I did not know that most women can’t orgasm, most women don’t orgasm through penetration. I’m just going to be really awkward – [laughs] – saying that word a hundred times now! Did not know that until, until I read romance novels. I, you know, had a pretty shoddy sex education, as is the case of probably most people in, in the US, and I think that romance novels are this, they obviously are, you know, escapist, you know, wonderful, you know, amazing distractions. I think they can also be a great parallel to the relationships in our real lives, and especially in, in Business or Pleasure, I really hope that it feels empowering for readers to see, you know, my female main character, you know, not only asking for what she wants but, like, specifically telling the, her hero what to do because he is clueless, and, you know, like, one of the most exciting things for me, and this has happened with a couple, with, with books in the past is someone will DM me saying like, We’ve read this in your book, and then my partner and I did it.

Sarah: Oooh!

Rachel: And that is kind of the coolest thing. [Laughs] And, and it’s also, it’s so funny ‘cause I started out writing YA, and I was like, Yeah, I will take differences between a YA and Adult for two hundred, because that is –

Lana: [Laughs]

Rachel: – that is the top of the list! But I think that is really, that really shows the extensive power of romance novels, that they’re not just something that we read in a vacuum; they give us the power and the ability to go make those changes and experiment and, and feel adventurous, and it’s, I mean, romance has just made me a fuller, like, better person!

Sarah: Yes.

Rachel: …honestly, like, I, I think romance is the best.

Sarah: I completely agree. And when you, when you talk about the idea that romance is how so many people learn about their bodies and learn about sex, the, the message at the bedrock of that whole element of romance is that we deserve sexual pleasure, that we should enjoy sex, that sex should be fun and enjoyable and we should experience good things! This is how, especially in a repressive society, which we have again right now –

Lana or Rachel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – this is how we learn about our bodies, but I think updating the, the communication of intimacy to have be, so women have their own voices to describe their own sexualities is a, is an absolutely excellent development in the genre altogether.

Rachel: In every book that I write, I always try to put the woman in control of every intimate scene, and I mean this one, one in particular was dialed up to eleven because she’s literally telling him what to do. Like, she is the, you know, “teacher.” But even my, in my YA novels, like, I always have the girl in the driver’s seat because every book that I read growing up, you know, YA at the time was like the, you know, teenagers making out in the backseat and the guy wanting to go further and further and the girl always pushing him away.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: So I grew up with that harmful messaging of like, Oh, I am not supposed to want that. I’m supposed to be the person doing the pushing.

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: I’m not supposed to be the person asking. And –

Sarah: Good girls don’t go all the way!

Rachel: – it just – yeah! You, you see and you read so much of it that it just kind of alters your brain chemistry in a way to, to the point where you’re just like, Okay, I, experiencing desire is bad, and all of these things, you know, are shameful. So I just really go all the way – [laughs] – I go all the way on the other end because I’m trying to undo this stuff, and if it helps one, like, young reader, I mean even a reader in their twenties or thirties or in their seventies! Although hopefully it hasn’t taken that long, but I know for some women, especially those who grew up at a certain time, yeah, I mean, they’ve had horrible sex education and experiences, but yeah, if it helps one person understand their body better or their desires better, then I have done my job, and it is, again, like the, the best job in the world to be able to have played some small role in that for someone.

Sarah: So I always ask this question: what books are you reading that you would like to tell people about?

Lana: I, I, I picked three ‘cause I am in ARC heaven lately?

Sarah: It’s a good place to be.

Lana: It is. I am completely open about the fact that my favorite part of being an author is that I get to beg for Advanced Reader Copies from some of my favorite authors, and I’ve just been incredibly blessed lately. I got to read The Long Game by Elena Armas, which is definitely my new favorite book of hers. Cameron is so swoony, and it is important to know that he has a thigh tattoo; that is very important to me personally? And the adorable growing attraction between him and Adalyn was everything, plus there’s a sexy pottery scene? Like, no spoilers, but you’re going to want to read it.

I also had my first official blurb, blurb request, which was a really cool, Oh wow, you’re a real author moment for me? The, and the fact that it was a book that I was already one hundred percent planning to beg my agent for a copy for just kind of made it icing on the cake? As soon as Rosie Danan described Do Your Worst as having The Mummy 2000 vibes, I pretty much decided it was going to be my entire personality, because that movie was probably my bi awakening, which then became later on my pan awakening, what have you, and –

[Laughter]

Lana: – she just nailed that descriptor. Like, everybody was hot in that movie, okay? Clark and Riley have huge Rick and Evy vibes, but, like, somehow even better? I loved how comfortable Riley was with herself, and I loved how she was basically Clark’s total opposite, and yet he was instantly drawn to her, basically for that exact reason? This was the adventure romance of my dreams, and I need it to be a movie so I can have an awakening all over again.

And of course I want to talk about Rachel’s book; I need to talk about Rachel’s book; I’m sor-, I just have to.

Rachel: Go on! [Laughs]

Lana: I have to! I have to. I, I of course read Rachel’s book. When my publicist first brought up doing this podcast, my very first question was, Okay, but can I get Rachel’s book? [Laughs] And I flew through it. I, and not only did I fly through it, I mauled her DMs, and I didn’t realize about the time difference. There was – so I’m, you know, at like eight o’clock last night, and then I realized it’s like three a.m. for her, and there’s like fifty messages, where I said –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Lana: – and, like, she’s going to call the police because I was loving it so much! Like, it felt like Rachel wrote this book just for me. That’s probably not true, but I choose to believe it. Chandler felt so relatable for me. This thirty-one-year-old woman who was struggling with her identity career-wise and, you know, she gets to teach this Lord of the Rings nerd how to be better at sex? I mean, that part is admittedly not me, but I am manifesting.

Rachel: [Laughs]

Lana: This book was just so funny and sexy, and it was just fucking delightful. Like, again, easily my new favorite of Rachel’s. Just, like, I’m getting new favorites from all of my, my favorite authors – [laughs[ – and, you know –

Rachel: Oh, thank you!

Lana: – I’m, I’m going to, I’m, I’m going to gush about it for a minute, ‘cause I, I asked Rachel it was okay if I, like, touched on a few things that just, like, I thought were really relevant to the topic? I wanted to gush about the way Rachel portrays sex positivity with Chandler’s character,  not only with just the way that Chandler was comfortable in her sexuality and what she wanted in terms with it, which, don’t get me wrong, there’s plenty of that. Chandler is absolutely a sex girl boss and I adore her for it, but also with the harder stuff.

Like, I checked in with her before to make sure it was okay to mention this, but pretty early on in the story we learn that Chandler had an abortion in her past, and we don’t often talk about the “gray” areas of sex, you know. There’s an entire spectrum of hard choices related to sex and having it, and the way that Chandler was portrayed as having to make one of those hard choices and the way she felt no shame in making decisions for her own body while also not allowing space for others to shame her for it was so gratifying. Sex positivity for me is about one’s agency in a sense, and –

Sarah: Absolutely.

Lana: – Chandler perfectly captured owning hers and was an inspiring role model for others to do the same. It was just such a relevant topic in today’s climate, and I loved how openly and honestly it was handled? I’m going to keep gushing; I’m sorry. Another thing –

Rachel: …Thank you!

Lana: I have so much to say! Another thing I loved about Rachel’s book was the way she pushed back against toxic masculinity norms with the way she wrote Finn? In, you know, in the real world, there’s a good chance that if you tell a man he doesn’t know how to properly use his penis, it’s not going to go well. But not only did Finn completely smash that stereotype by being receptive to Chandler telling him, she, or he also – you know, telling him that he didn’t know how to use his penis, basically! – he was also open to instruction, and from a woman! You know, reading a man asking a woman to not only show, like show him what she needs from him, but also asking that she teach him about sex in general was so fresh and different from what I’ve come to expect in romance novels, and it was, again, just fucking delightful. [Laughs] This book is just truly –

Rachel: Oh my gosh.

Lana: – all the good things. Like, honestly, I feel lucky to be here in the same space with Rachel and this book? Like, I told her earlier I felt like a, like a kid in the room with grownups. Like, it was just, it was so great, and, and this is the perfect time to tell you that Finn is my perfect man come to life. I am in love with him.

Rachel: [Laughs]

Lana: I, I claim him as my own. Like, the man got his first big boy check and bought Gandalf’s sword. I know Rachel is his mother, but I want to be his mommy, and I don’t care who knows it.

[Laughter]

Rachel: You know, I, you are, like, you have earned it. Thank you!…It’s still hard to receive compliments in real time and not just, like, typed to you where you can have a space to process it? But seriously, thank you. That’s, that’s tru-, that’s so kind and, like, that’s so much of what I wanted to do with the book.

Yeah, well, I mean, the first thing that I, I mean, I need to follow that up with is that I am in the middle of reading The Nanny, which is so delightful. We, you know, we talked earlier about the, the sex work, and it is so, so refreshing, but it almost seems like one of the last corn- – not one of, but not the last – like one of the last cornerstones in kind of toppling the, the harmful, patriarchal messaging of, around sex. I mean, yeah, books like Lana’s, books like, I mean, Rosie Danan, I mention her again. Like, The Roommate also did so much to, to kind of erase that as…and then The Nanny is so, so delightful and I’m really loving it.

I am also in the middle of Georgie, All Along by Kate Clayborn.

Sarah: Yep!

Rachel: I just adore her books. She has this, yeah, she has this way of writing where each sentence feels so expertly crafted with just the precise, perfect word chosen at, at each moment, and yet it somehow feels effortless, and I am just having such a good time with that one.

And then I also just started reading Yellowface by R. F. Kuang, and that is another great, very insider-y publishing book.

Sarah: So where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Rachel: Sure! So I am on Instagram @rlynn_solomon, all Os, and my website rachelsolomonbooks.com.

Sarah: Awesome. Lana, what about you?

Lana: Also on Instagram @lanafergusonwrites, and if you want to send me something longer you can check out my website, which is just lanaferguson.com.

Sarah: Thank you so very, very much for doing this interview. It has been an absolute delight talking to you, and I, I really appreciate the, the topic that you’re bringing up, because, like you said, Rachel, these, these messages are really pernicious about how women ought to be and how we ought to interact with sex, and it’s not anywhere near the reality of how diverse our sexual experiences and interests are, so thank you so very, very much for doing this interview, and thank you for advancing the idea of sexual intimacy and positivity in your books. I think it’s a really important step forward for the genre that needs to happen, so thank you so much for that.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you again to Kristin for setting this up and to Lana and Rachel for hanging out with me and being such fun guests. I of course will have links to all of the books that we talked about in the show notes, as well as links to their websites and their Instagrams.

As always, I end with a terrible joke, and this week is no exception. This joke is from Malaraa in the podcast Discord, which, by the way, is a benefit of joining the Patreon, along with bonus episodes. Malaraa, this joke is incredible. [Clears throat] Serious podcaster voice:

If two’s company and three’s a crowd, what are four and five?

Give up? What are four and five?

Nine.

[Laughs] You know, we have this little spoiler tag in the Discord so you can, like, hide the answer to the joke, and I sat there and I stared at this, and I was like, I’m going to get this, I’m going to get this. Did I get this? No. No, I did not. So I hope you just groaned and rolled your eyes and are terribly displeased with me.

On behalf of everyone here, including all of my mammalian assistants of various furry varieties, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[end of music]