549. Spare by Prince Harry, with Melissa Blue

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 549 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell. My guest today is Melissa Blue. Melissa tweeted that she wanted to talk about Spare, and so did I, so we did! And I know there has been a lot of coverage of this book, and you might have opened this episode and been like, Ahhh, I don’t know, but, like, trust me. We’re going to look at the book both from a perspective of being romance readers and romance writers, but also the larger narrative about dismantling propaganda. As Melissa points out, narratives constructed around Meghan and Harry echo a lot of other narratives we’ve seen about other people, especially women in public life who are subjected to propaganda and undermine them, so there’s a lot more going on. It’s almost like talking about romance novels, which a lot of people dismiss, but actually are doing a lot of work to reveal narratives about ourselves, so I look at those two things as very similar. I hope you enjoy this conversation. We had an absolute ball.

I have a compliment! I love this part.

To Emily D.: If you think birds and squirrels are watching you, they totally are, because they know you are among the finest of humans, and they like to keep you company as they tell every other creature how great you are.

If you would like a compliment of your very own, or if you would like to support this here show, please have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Pledges start at one dollar a month, the bonus episodes and Discord are open to all levels, and you’re helping me keep going and making sure that every episode has a transcript from garlicknitter. Thank you, garlicknitter! [You’re welcome! – gk] Thank you again to our Patreon community for being entirely fabulous.

I have a special heads-up about next week’s episode: some of our most popular episodes are crossovers with Heaving Bosoms, so we are doing another one! We are discussing The Madness of Lord Ian Mackenzie by Jennifer Ashley, which is a 2009 historical romance. Part one will be hosted in the Heaving Bosoms feed Monday, February 13th, and then part two will be right here at Smart Podcast on Friday, February 17th. So next week’s episode, next Friday, February 17, is part two of a crossover, so you can find the first part on Monday, on the 13th, and then part two. And we have so much to discuss with this book. I don’t know if you’ve read or reread this book, but we have so many things to talk about. So Monday, Heaving Bosoms, part one, and here at Smart Podcast, Trashy Books, part two of our crossover will be next week’s episode on Friday, February 17th.

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All right, let’s do this interview: on with my conversation with Melissa Blue about Spare by Prince Harry.

[music]

Melissa Blue: Hi. My name is Melissa Blue. I’ve been a writer for the last eighteen years. I’ve recently picked up editing, and I’ve gone back to school and bad decisions were made. Hi!

[Laughter]

Sarah: So thank you for allowing me to slide like a creeper into your DMs and say, Do you want to talk about Spare with me? Because, as you might imagine, I am hesitant to bring up Harry and Meghan to anyone that I don’t know already? People will lose their absolute minds. Like, they will just go off in ways that I’m like, do you not see your racism? It’s like –

Melissa: They can’t! They, they honestly cannot. Like, I, I should preface this entire talk with I am a, an honorary Sussex squaddie. [Laughs]

Sarah: Cool!

Melissa: So I am deep on that side of Twitter, so you came to the right place.

Sarah: Thank you. Okay. So let’s start: were you, were you always going to read this book?

Melissa: I’m not sure if I always was going to read it. I think I was going to support, like, in whatever way, you know, like I do any other author I see on my timeline: RT, here’s some reviews I’ve seen. I, I think it was the documentary that really made me go, Okay, I’m going to read Spare, because I, I’ve seen Harry; you know, we’ve all kind of seen Harry in some certain form, and, like, he seemed like a fun-loving guy, but I didn’t realize how much of a deep, thoughtful thinker he was?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: And that isn’t to say I, I fell for the propaganda of him being, you know, “Prince Thicko.”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: It’s just like, not everybody is a deep thinker, and that’s fine. And so I was really curious to see what he thought about his own life versus what anyone else says about him.

Sarah: I was originally very turned off by all of the excerpts, because I was like, Oh my God, this book is going to be secondhand embarrassment, and I don’t do well – like, I, I, I can, I can barely watch reality TV. Like, just the, the secondhand embarrassment is so painful, and I was reading all of these out-of-context excerpts, and I was like, Is this just a book of secondhand embarrassment? I don’t, I don’t know if I can sign on for that, ‘cause that’s, that’s a lot of words in this book, and I can’t handle that much cringe. My abs would not take it.

Melissa: [Laughs]

Sarah: And then I realized that what’s actually happening is a story that’s about a lot of distance. There is a massive distance between the excerpts that were in the tabloids and the actual –

Melissa: Oh yes!

Sarah: – content of the book, and there’s a massive distance between what the tabloids say about Harry and what Harry will tell you with his own voice. He is, he is what I call Target famous: he cannot just up and go to Target because he is a target for other people. He just can’t go to Target. He – like, Beyoncé is Target famous.

Melissa: She is.

Sarah: Right, and –

Melissa: She is.

Sarah: – Prince Harry and Meghan are now Target famous.

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: The other thing that I think that he was doing strategically, if I look at the book as a whole, is I think he was sort of like, Okay, you’re going to keep coming after me. You’re going to keep coming after my wife. I am going to lay out every single thing. I’m going to tell you about how I got frostbite on my dick. We’re going to talk about my penis. We’re going to talk about my penis for like many pages. I have told the frostbite penis story, and it’s sort of saying to his family and to the press, All right, what else you got? ‘Cause I just talked about my fro-, my, my, my frost-sicle. Like, come on.

Melissa: Not even just that. When you go back and look at my brother’s wedding and you see me standing around there, I want you to think about, every now and again, how I had frostnip on my penis.

Sarah: Right?!

Melissa: Like –

Sarah: He’s like, What, okay, I have laid everything out. You have no ammo, and I have exposed all of the lies. What else you got? You got nothing.

Melissa: I definitely think that was part of why he went to the dirty details –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Melissa: – of his life and left nothing out, but he has left them with no am-, no real ammunition.

Sarah: And they’re mad that Meghan isn’t showing herself, because they can’t yell about it.

Melissa: Talk about absolute racism. They got tired of having to focus on Harry, so now the spin is Where’s Meghan?

Sarah: Why isn’t Meghan there?

Melissa: She must not really support her husband, since we haven’t seen her out and about. It’s like, the book is about Harry.

Sarah: Yeah. I, I keep thinking, like, even, even Harry said it in the Colbert interview. Like, you keep telling on yourselves. We can see you!

Melissa: And everyone had just saw it all happen at the queen’s funeral.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: And then his book drops, and now we’re getting hardcore examples of, this was the real story, and this is what the media said, and this is what my family approved of.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yep.

Melissa: Like –

Sarah: And we’ve seen this before, right? Like, when Princess Diana died, everyone was mad at the tabloids, and they were terrified ‘cause, I mean, honestly, in any of these situations, you follow the money: they were terrified of losing money. They were terrified of losing their power. They weren’t going to take that blame. They weren’t going to take any of that heat. They were going throw it all on the royal family, so they’re going to start putting more pressure on the royal family, and the royal family’s not going to handle it very well.

Melissa: No, and they didn’t handle it well when Diana passed away.

Sarah: No!

Melissa: Like, I was – now, mind you, I was very, very young when all that happened, but I was still aware of how horrible the press was.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: Like, I’m, I’m still a child seeing all these pictures of, of a woman being mobbed…

Sarah: Covering, covering her face with anything. Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. So I was in, like, when I heard that she had passed away, you know, me being young, and then I heard, Oh, she was being followed by the paparazzi, it made a lot of sense, because all the images I have ever really seen of her –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: – was being mobbed by the paparazzi.

Sarah: Yep. And then you see that again with Harry and Meghan, and in their documentary they draw a very clear line between, Look at, look at how awful this is.

What did you think of the book? Did you read it? Did you listen to it? Did you do both? What did you think of the book overall?

Melissa: [Laughs] Since we’re here talking, clearly I like the book. But I will say one thing that stood out to me: I read the first few chapters, I read the first few chapters with the e-book, and, and for me, since I didn’t know what I was expecting –

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: – you know, the, like, I wasn’t turned off necessarily from the excerpts. I was just like, Oooh! I wasn’t expecting what I got, which was something so very tactile. Like, I’m not a fan of description, per se; I’m like, Eh, let’s skip it; but, but here I think it absolutely worked, one, because there is so much that we don’t know – especially as Americans – know about royalty. What, what do their homes look like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: – you know, outside of, you know, what, what they show us? And to get that picture and to see Frogmore from his eye, and the one thing that stood out to me was the way he described his mother in those first few pages, and at that moment I was like, Oh. Oh, oh, this is different. This is, this is going to be well written; this is going to be thoughtful –

Sarah: Yes!

Melissa: – and it was just the first few pages, and it sounded like Harry, which all the kudos go to his ghostwriter – let me see if I can get his name right: J. R. Moehringer?

Sarah: That’s, that’s how I would say it, Moehringer, yeah. Absolutely gorgeous.

Melissa: Like, like, it sounds – because I’ve seen enough interviews that, you know, I know what his voice sounds like. I can, I can feel the cadence of his voice on the page. Yeah, I mean, it felt like Harry was writing these words. So after I read those first few chapters I did get the Audible, and so while he narrated I read along, because he’s British and I’m like, I know I’m not going to know what he’s saying sometimes, so let me just read along. [Sighs] Such a great experience, but –

Sarah: That’s very –

Melissa: – it was heartwrenching.

Sarah: It was immersive, too! You’re reading and you’re listening at the same time?

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: That’s very immersive!

Melissa: After I realized this was going to be well written – because I have read other celebrity autobiographies that, mm, baby, not a thing – oh, nonono, this is going to be well written; this is going to be good. Let me, let me really dig into it.

Sarah: So what parts stood out to you? There are a few things that stood out to me that I was like, Oh, I can’t wait to talk about this!

Melissa: [Laughs]

Sarah: The whole thing about Harry and William, that they were ever close, was a lie, and it only got trotted out when it made William or Charles look good. The idea that they were never close is just staggering to me, because that was a narrative we’ve been fed for as long as we’ve, they’ve, they’ve been –

Melissa: Just the boys! They’ve, they’ve joined together, and…

Sarah: Shoulder to shoulder! Yeah. They were never close!

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: That was all a lie! And how many different ways – this is a good point to, to your catching of the writing: how many different ways did they find to say in that book that they were never close?

Melissa: Ah, about four million.

Sarah: Right? It was never just like, nonono, that wasn’t true. Well, actually, it was, The press said this, but here is the story. It is astonishing, the, the absolute desolation of what Harry says about his relationship with William.

Melissa: I think the most startling – I keep saying this word, but it is – it just, like, so now we find out that they’re not really that close. After a certain point, it really does feel like William didn’t see Harry as his little brother anymore, if he ever saw him that way.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: Harry was simply there to be William’s scapegoat.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: To be another Yes Man.

Sarah: And I know that’s very common in a lot of dysfunctional families, to have one golden child who is perfect –

Melissa: Yes!

Sarah: – and then the scapegoat? Like, I think one of the reasons why this resonates so much for me is that essentially this is a story of family estrangement. This is a story of someone who is trying to live their adult life and is being told on an absolutely nuclear, global level, You’re not allowed –

Melissa: Hmm!

Sarah: – to do that because we don’t like it. And I know a lot of people, myself included, have had to struggle to get their families to recognize them as autonomous adults.

Melissa: Yeah. Conform! Why aren’t you conforming? Why can’t you just do this one thing that makes you small?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: It’ll make everybody else happy.

Sarah: Yeah, why aren’t you, why aren’t you shrinking yourself for the comfort of other people? And I think that’s such a common narrative –

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – that this being such a global story, it means that, I think –

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – more and more people can be like, Oh yeah, I’ve had experiences like that too.

Melissa: Even though it’s very much hype. Everything that, that happens in this life is on a heightened scale that, you know, we will never be able to even truly imagine, it’s so relatable in those small moments.

Sarah: Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Melissa: My best example is that, their fourth date disaster. Like, friends come over, they eat, they go to sleep, he wakes up, Meg is – [laughs] – is, is throwing up in the bathroom, and she jokes at him, Oh God, I’m going to make you hold my hair for this! Like, how freaking relatable is that?

Sarah: Yep!

Melissa: Yeah! Like, how many people have, have gotten food poisoning, and the person they love is taking care of them?

Sarah: Yep, holding their hair. Yep!

Melissa: Holding their hair!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

I also was fascinated by the part where Harry – okay, so, as you do, Harry goes on vacation with Meghan and Elton John, ‘cause, you know, who doesn’t go on vacation with Elton John? I do that –

Melissa: As one does.

Sarah: As you do, right? So, you know, he’s on vacation with Elton John, and Elton John’s like, My guy! Why don’t you just hire your own lawyer and sue them? You don’t have to use the palace’s lawyer. There’s other lawyers! Why don’t you just hire a lawyer and – and Harry’s just, like, poleaxed! Like, what?! I can just hire my own –

Melissa: What?!

Sarah: – attorney? So then he does! Chuck and William are mad because it makes them look bad that they never sued on behalf of their wives. That’s why they’re mad. You made us look bad. It’s mindblowing!

Melissa: The levels!

Sarah: Right?!

Melissa: The levels! Like, ‘cause they were also mad that he put out that statement, that he put out that initial statement –

Sarah: Yes! That you guys need to back off!

Melissa: – saying that you guys are being a little racist. They also got on him: Well, we didn’t do that for Kate and Camilla. Then why didn’t you? There really is a difference in how racism is viewed. Like someone was saying, they make the example, the way white men felt about Obama is the way many white women feel about Meghan.

Sarah: Oh my God!

Melissa: You – right?

Sarah: Holy shit!

Melissa: You’re not even supposed to be there! You’re not even supposed to be there.

Sarah: This is so personally offensive to me that you are there doing this thing and existing in this way and – while being Black. Unacceptable! Holy shit, yes!

Melissa: Yes! Like, that kind of blew my mind! I was like, yes! That makes – so anything and everything you do is heightened.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: ‘Cause you’re not even supposed to be there! How dare she leave with our prince! How dare she be loved and happy –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Melissa: – have, have those kids. Like, how dare she? So we are going to tear it all apart.

Sarah: And the way in which the British media and the British royal family cannot see the value of the community that has risen up around them to protect them in America?

Melissa: Yeah, yeah, and I think what people really just truly don’t understand about the Black community is that we are really ride or die for our people. [Laughs] We are really ride or die! Like, if, when, especially when you get into certain situations that anybody would eyeball and say, This is going to go bad –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Melissa: – because, even though I was happy for Meghan – I was happy for Meghan; I watched the wedding –

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: – ‘cause I was a fan of Suits before, so when I heard about the, you know – [squees] – and so – [laughs] –

Sarah: And the, and, for, wait, for that wedding, you would have had to get up at like one in the morning, right? That was middle of the night for you.

Melissa: Girl, I can’t even – no, I watched the wedding.

Sarah: I understand completely.

Melissa: And I was like, like, I, I – and the, part of me was like, her, her smile seemed strained at times, but every time she looked at Harry she was grinning, and he was grinning back at her, so I’m like, it’s going okay. But we saw what happened with Diana, us Americans. If we didn’t see nothing else about the British family since then, we remember how they did Diana. It’s funny that a lot of Black women of the, a generation above mine, they rocked with Diana the way the younger generations rock with Meghan. I was so shocked when I heard that.

Sarah: Interesting, but it’s true! It’s absolutely true, and I had no idea!

Melissa: I even asked my mom; I was like, you know – I mean, because I’m like, where else would I have picked up all this information about Princess Diana? I was, I was too young to really understand all this –

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: – so why do I know all this? ‘Cause of my mom! She was –

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: Diana was her girl, and I asked her, and she said, When I looked at her, I could see myself, because she looked so sad, alone, and isolated. And my mother found that relatable. She felt that connection. And so she was rooting for Diana!

But back to the point: Tyler Perry. It makes sense that he would know what happened to Diana, and he was seeing biracial, Black ancestry, Black woman going into the royal family. She might need an out.

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: So, baby, if anything ever hap, here’s my number; call. So I’m not surprised by that, because I’ve had that, like, in the writing community. I’ve had the older Black women: Babe –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: – if you need anything – don’t know me from Adam –

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: [Laughs] – but they understand that if you are going into a very white environment, you might need another chocolate drop.

Sarah: Yes, and you’re going to need to talk to somebody where you don’t have to have the Racism 101 conversation? You can just go –

Melissa: Exactly.

Sarah: You can just walk up to them and then say, So somebody in that panel said I was well-spoken.

Melissa: Mm! Exactly.

Sarah: And, and no one is going to need to have that translated. Like, oh –

Melissa: No, you don’t need to go through Slavery happened four hundred years ago –

Sarah: [Snorts]

Melissa: – up till now conversation.

Sarah: No.

Melissa: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: I remember reading when, after the, after the invasion of Ukraine, a lot of Russian connections to Facebook were halted because they were spreading propaganda about –

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – Ukraine. And so Meta cut them off, Instagram cut them off, and all of these bot farms that were based in Russia were suddenly silent, and the amount of pro Kate propaganda also dropped visibly. And, and I’m fascinated by that. When you put it together with the, there was a New York Times article? I know you saw this. The, the Sussex squad was all over this article about how in Instagram, @kensingtonroyal always had more followers; they were never allowed to have less followers than @sussexroyal, but @sussexroyal –

Melissa: Ah!

Sarah: – had actual engagement, and then somebody on New York Times just crunched all those numbers and was like, This is clearly bot farm activity?

Melissa: Bot.

Sarah: How much money is being spent on propping up this white supremacist narrative about Kate and William and, and Camilla and Charles? I do Duolingo every day to keep my Spanish skills up? And I swear to you – I can show you the screenshot – I had a translation, and it was Once upon a time there was a queen named Camilla, and I was like, Duolingo!

Melissa: [Gasps]

Sarah: What are you doing? [Laughs]

Melissa: Oh God!

Sarah: And I was like, I’m not prepared to say this!

Melissa: They, they infiltrated the net! [Laughs]

Sarah: You, you got the green owl, too, guys! Could you just back off? Just leave the owl alone.

So I want to ask you about the Sussex squad. What brought you into the Sussex squad? Because it seems to me from, like, I love looking at the patterns of all of this narrative, because, like, I love celebrity gossip. I, I love it.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I think it is so fascinating. What is the narrative that is being said about somebody? What is the blind item narrative that is being said about that? And I realize, somebody, somebody pointed this out in a gossip subreddit, and I, like, like the statement you made about Obama and white men –

Melissa: Mm.

Sarah: – my brain just exploded. That one of the reasons why people who follow gossip and blind items saw through Johnny Depp’s effort to poison the public opinion against Amber Heard was that we are familiar with watching propaganda be created, and we could see this was propaganda.

Melissa: Oooh!

Sarah: And one of the things that the Sussex squad is so good at is being an anti-propaganda, and it is, I will not accept this propaganda narrative because I can see that it is all based in racism.

Melissa: I think it really comes from being a Black woman. And I’m not saying all Black women feel the same – absolutely not – but –

Sarah: Well, I mean, you can speak for all Black people! It’s fine.

Melissa: [Growls] Yeah.

Sarah: Nothing bad will happen, especially not in romance. That’s just a, that’s just very simple.

Melissa: [Laughs] Girl, I’m not trying to have Black shit on, on my neck, ‘cause God, no. Forgive me for everything I said if y’all try to come after me.

[Laughter]

Melissa: But the whole point is, is like, I was a fan of Suits, so I was very much aware of who Meghan Markle was –

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: – ‘cause, you know, I went to school to be a paralegal, there she was being a paralegal on the TV screen, so I had warm thoughts about her already. Never really heard anything bad about her, and obviously, as most of us, we grew up with Prince Harry; he was the fun one. I was like, Oh, this sounds like a really good marriage. I’m happy for them! And then, you know, obviously I watched the wedding ‘cause I wanted to see the dress and all the hubbub and, and two people who just really just sort of looked in love. And then I checked out, you know, ‘cause, like –

Sarah: The wedding happened!

Melissa: I checked back in when that South African documentary happened.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: And she was in tears because someone asked her if she was okay, and I’m like –

Sarah: Mm.

Melissa: – what is they over there doing to her? And then eventually, like, I really started to pay more attention when they decided to leave. And again, because my mother was that diehard – not even diehard – she rocked with Diana –

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yep.

Melissa: – some of these stories I saw, they just looked and sounded exactly like the stories about Diana. She’s a bully; she’s paranoid and crazy. I’m like, these are the same things they were saying about Diana!

Sarah: It’s like a copy of the same narrative with a little extra racism on top.

Melissa: Same…and, and as soon as I saw that Kate, Meghan made Kate cry, I’m like, I know exactly what that is. That’s the white woman at work that you said hi to, but you didn’t have a full conversation with that morning –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: – and now we have the attitude you hate her, and now she’s in the office crying about you. Like, and that’s what kind of pulled me into the Sussex squad, ‘cause I’m like, this is – I know what this shit is, and if I can tweet something, if I can say something –

Sarah: Yep. I know all the words to this song; the only difference is we’re talking about a lot more global level of fame and a lot more money and a lot more alleged influence.

Melissa: Yeah!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: Yeah. Like, it, it was not as bad as what was going on with Hilary Clinton and the whole Her Emails thing, but it had the same flavor of propaganda, of I, I’m trying to convince you.

Sarah: That is such a good parallel. Yes!

Melissa: Yeah, I’m going to convince you, this is a horrible, bad person who is horrible! And it’s like, where’s the evidence, though? You have palace sources. Like, if she was terrible, if she was this terrible, she would either be sued or they would bring them out to interview all the time. She said this to me; there would be tears. It’d be a whole thing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: – and none of that is happening. It’s just rumors in the media.

Sarah: Yep. And let’s look at, look at how this plays out when someone finally speaks up about somebody who actually is horrible. Look at somebody like, like Lea Michele, for example.

Melissa: Oh God. Yeah.

Sarah: Or Ellen, you know. Finally somebody’s like, no, this person’s actually horrible, and how many people are lining up to, going, Oh my God, it’s safe to talk now? Let me tell you how horrible this person is. I have this story. Oh my God, you too? Me, I have this story! Not a single person has come out and been like, Oh my God, I once served Meghan coffee and she was so rude to me? Like, no one has a story like that!

Melissa: It’s the opposite!

Sarah: Yeah!

Melissa: It’s literally the opposite! And I’ve never seen that before!

Sarah: Me neither!

Melissa: And I think that that would – [laughs] – don’t let usually people just go, Oh, I don’t care. Like, yeah, she was nice to me, but this has nothing to do with me, and I think they have made it such a thing that it is backfiring. We rarely see this happening; we only see this happening when someone is absolutely shitty. We’re – oh yeah –

Sarah: And, and the, and the façade collapses when the propaganda collapses.

Melissa: Yeah!

Sarah: One of the things I find the most fascinating in celebrity gossip stories is when you start to see the distance between who someone is pretending to be –

Melissa: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – and who they actually are. Like, that was the reason why the Try Guys thing was so fascinating, because he was pretending that this, this narrative was true, and the actual –

Melissa: I like that!

Sarah: – narrative was so far from that. Like, the farther apart those two stories are when it collapses, it’s like –

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – Oh, holy shit! My God, what a mess! The narrative here –

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – is all of this garbage about William and Har-, William and Harry being close, and all of this garbage about Meghan and Harry, and the actual reality is so far away that it’s shocking when you see how badly constructed this narrative is and how long it’s lasted!

Melissa: Here is the best example, for me –

Sarah: Yes.

Melissa: – because, again, me and Harry are the same age.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: So in my head, because my family, yeah, it’s dysfunctional, but they’re loving!

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Melissa: Loving. So I thought, in my childlike mind, that I grew up, and it’s still stuck in my head, that he lost his mother, but the queen – if not his father, ‘cause his father looks like a mess – the queen must have taken him under her wing and really loved and cared for him.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: When the true story is that I’m getting from, that I got from Spare, they sent him off to boarding school.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: No one was allowed to talk his mother; nobody hugged or loved on him until he got old enough where he could create those own relationships for himself.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: He healed up enough after going through the military, having a purpose –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: – and then he met what he feels is the love of his life, the love of his life, where he made the family he always wanted. And that’s what I love most about Spare –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: – is that brushes away all the bullshit that’s out there about who Prince Harry really is.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Melissa: It tells you, This is exactly who I am.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: You ain’t got to like me, you ain’t got to love me, but this is going to be the truth you’re getting.

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: And I just want to protect my family.

Sarah: And as a romance, it works real well.

Melissa: Oh.

Sarah: It works real, real well, because I love romance novels where, okay, so, for example, I love fake relationships, because one of the things that really often happens in fake relationships is that you have the performance of –

Melissa: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – you know, okay, we’re going to pretend, but then when they’re in private they’re actually themselves. Like, they strip away all of the pretense, and they’re just like, I don’t have to pretend with you. This isn’t even real, so you’re going to see me, you know, throwing up ‘cause I got food poisoning!

Melissa: Yes!

Sarah: You’re going to see my honest and true self, and then you’re going to be like, Oh shit, we really work well together. Maybe this isn’t fake.

Melissa: Yeah!

Sarah: So when you have that narrative of, I’m going to be my honest self from the jump because, like, what do I have to lose? This isn’t even real. Like, I don’t have to pretend or put on my best self with you. Like, we’re going to go out in public and make a performance, but in private, like, I’m just going to be myself, ‘cause I don’t have anything to lose here.

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: That same narrative is present in this book of nonfiction. I’m going to be –

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – my honest self here. You’re going to hear about my dick and what happened. And the thing about that is, there’s two parts to that story that I find so interesting. One is that he was afraid to speak up. I only have one layer of clothing –

Melissa: Yeah!

Sarah: – between the outside and my very tender parts, but I am hiking to the pole with people who are missing limbs and are struggling with disabilities that they incurred in combat. I cannot whine and complain in this company, so I’m not going to. And then he has to find a doctor for his wee-wee as Prince Harry.

Melissa: That won’t turn around and, and, and –

Sarah: Sell the story.

Melissa: – tell the press.

Sarah: That was one of the things where, where Meghan was, when they had a fight and he was really cruel to her and she was like, You will be getting therapy. I will not have this in my relationship, I will not have this in my home, and I will not have children if this is the kind of environment that you are bringing, ‘cause I’m not here for it. I love that, because that’s really brave. But also, how hard do you think it is to, for Harry to have possibly found a therapist in the UK? Because he found a therapist and found somebody he trusted and found someone who would keep his secrets and be trustworthy. How hard is that? Like, how do you even do that?

Melissa: It’s not finding a needle in a haystack; it’s finding a needle in a stack of needles.

Sarah: Yes! Exactly!

Melissa: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, I have to find somebody that I trust –

Melissa: Who’s, who’s not going to know who Prince Harry fucking is!

Sarah: Or if they do, they understand the –

Melissa: UK!

Sarah: – the responsibilities that they carry. But also, finding a therapist is really personal! Like, I’ve tried to find a therapist, and I’ve just been like, Yeah, we are not vibing, and you don’t get my sense of humor, and if I have to explain how I work on the internet and that, you know, my colleagues, I don’t ever see them in person, they’re on Twitter, like, that’s, that’s hard, you know, and I’m just like –

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – some rando person here.

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: This is somebody who’s globally famous, and he has to be able to have a safe space to talk about incredible levels of trauma that everyone –

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – has already witnessed. Like, we all saw him walk behind a coffin!

Melissa: Ah!

Sarah: Like, can you imagine find- – I mean, I, I felt vulnerable thinking, oh yeah, this is not going to vibe. I’ve got to start the, I’ve got to start the triangulation all over again of who’s available, who’s taking new patients, who’s covered by my insurance, who’s within an hour’s drive? Like, that’s exhausting work. On top of that level of fame, ah! No! Woof!

Melissa: What you’re saying is on point, because therapy is about creating a safe space with someone.

Sarah: Yeah!

Melissa: Being able to trust them. Who was he, at that point, who was he ever really able to trust? It wasn’t the family he was supposed to trust.

Sarah: No!

Melissa: Too many of, of friends would turn around and talk. I’m paying you, yes, but what is – everything I tell you right now, is it always going to stay within these walls?

Sarah: Yeah!

Melissa: And it’s, and if the, the media finds out about you, I’m going to lose. I’m going to lose you.

Sarah: Yeah! And –

Melissa: It’s going to make your life hell.

Sarah: And I know, like, in my own personal life, that I have trusted the wrong people, and they have shared my business in a way that I didn’t like, and for me that’s just, you know, that’s, that’s painful and embarrassing and hard.

Melissa: There are so many points in this book where it’s so, just so fucking relatable.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: And it makes sense why so many people, after they get done reading the book, they go, You know what, this was a really good read.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: It really gave me – even if they didn’t end up liking Harry at the end of it, it was a really good read. It really made me think about the press this certain way and the stories I’m consuming about people that I think I know that I do not know.

Sarah: Yeah. Let me –

Melissa: I mean…

Sarah: It is a giant deconstruction of propaganda that is his whole life! His whole life! My God!

Melissa: It’s propaganda.

Sarah: And also it’s, the, one of the ways I think it’s destabilizing to the monarchy is that the monarchy exists fundamentally on the idea that God chose those people to rule over other people –

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and that’s something that’s going to be played out in the coronation. Like, they have to figure out –

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – how to finesse this thing that in, in the 1950s they said outright, that God chose the queen to rule over England. Like, they are divinely anointed –

Melissa: Yes.

Sarah: – and that’s a, that’s kind of a hard narrative to sell right now, to be fair? Just a little…

Melissa: I mean, the, the last time they had to sell the narrative, it was a very different nation.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: A very different nation.

Sarah: And a very different time period. They’d just come out of a massive war?

Melissa: Everybody, yeah!

Sarah: And they –

Melissa: Everybody was just coming…

Sarah: – weren’t sure they were even going to have a country after that war was done. And, I mean, they literally had Nazis in the family. They, they still kind of do. And, like, it’s a different world. How do you sell that narrative now? And what Harry’s narrative and what his story does is say, You know, these are actual people. These are actual people; they are in an absolutely terrible situation. He’s not wrong! They’re trapped! And he said in the end of the book, you know, when his father cut him off, So I was born into this family. I was raised –

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – in a way that makes me ineligible to work. Like, how is he going to have a job? He’s Target famous. He can’t go to Target! How’s he going to, like – what’s he going to do, answer the phone?

Melissa: Well, he can’t…work at Target! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah!

Melissa: …work at Target if he’s Target famous! [Laughs]

Sarah: Right? Like, this is, this is, this is a really –

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – destabilizing narrative, because it points out that all of these individuals are flawed humans. They can’t even raise a person; how are they supposed to run a country with no training? Like, they can’t even do media training. They don’t even understand social media. They are completely unequipped for the world that they’re in, but they’re anointed by God to run the show? And any narrative that’s like, Oh, no, no, no, they don’t have actual power – yeah, they do! They absolutely do! I mean, come on! So, so by making all of these people flawed humans – which of course is my favorite part, ‘cause I’m a romance reader, so I like reading about flawed humans; that’s, like, why I’m here! – the fact that he has shown all of these individuals to be deeply flawed humans who are motivated by greed and insecurity is deeply destabilizing to this whole idea that, you know, yeah, but, but God says it’s okay.

Melissa: It’s not just deeply flawed that God says is okay. Is – got to go back to the funeral.

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: You’re not supposed to cry.

Sarah: No.

Melissa: You’re not supposed to hold hands. You are supposed to be the perfect picture.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: Perfect picture, and the picture he drew was anything but perfect.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: That, that is the most destabilizing thing –

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: – of what he said.

Sarah: Absolutely.

Melissa: These people who come out, and you’re supposed to be examples of?

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: You should not look up as examples, because they lie to you; the media helps them; it’s all a God-damn mess.

Sarah: And, and it’s all a lie. Everything that you have been told is a lie. And they are lying to you to preserve their power.

Melissa: Mmm-hmm! Yep.

Sarah: And it’s the same narrative that’s played out in so many different arenas, even here in the States. You know, God told me –

Melissa: I mean –

Sarah: – that you can’t have control over your body. God has to ordain that you’re not allowed –

Melissa: [Growls]

Sarah: – to control your reproduction. Are you for real? Come on, now.

Melissa: Yeah, don’t get me started. [Laughs] Don’t get me started on those narratives.

Sarah: One of the things that I think Harry got so close to realizations about, and to be completely empathetic with his situation, these people can’t love me. These people cannot support me, and more importantly, monarchy is a human rights violation. The existence of hereditary monarchies is a human rights violation. There is no reason why there is a group of people who are hereditarily going to rule over you, and it’s not, it’s, it’s a human rights violation for the people who are being ruled over, and it’s a human rights violation for the people in that family, because you, you, you’re born and you, you don’t get a choice of anything? Like, nothing?

Melissa: Anything.

Sarah: Nothing. That’s a human rights violation, and he comes so close! I also had, I also had to struggle a bit – just a little bit – with the, you know, we’re the good guys. I understand –

Melissa: Okay –

Sarah: – why this is, but yikes! This is a little hard to listen to.

Melissa: I know exactly where you’re getting that.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: The umbrella of, he’s almost there, understanding the intersectionality of racism, colonialism –

Sarah: Yes!

Melissa: – however you say that…

Sarah: Yes.

Melissa: – and, and, and war in a sense because I feel like war is, they use these two other things –

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: – to do war sometimes.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s, war is racist and, racism and colonialism –

Melissa: Yeah! And –

Sarah: – and protecting of profits, yeah.

Melissa: – he’s so close; like, his whole point of making a distinction in unconscious bias and racism, and he keeps saying, What they did was unconscious bias, and if they don’t do anything to fix it, then that’s when it becomes racism. And I’m like, my Black self, Sir, it’s already at racism.

Sarah: It’s already there.

Melissa: I, I, I understand you trying to, you trying to lead folks slowly over here, but it, it, it was racism, baby. Let’s go with that. [Laughs] And so –

Sarah: And every time he did that I was like, are you afraid to call people racist because that’s all they’re going to hear?

Melissa: It’s a white person thing.

Sarah: It’s very much a white person thing.

Melissa: It’s – okay, let me take it back. It’s a white person thing who has just recently learned about –

Sarah: About racism.

Melissa: – Oh, that’s racism.

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: Trying to talk to someone who was on the other side of it –

Sarah: Yes.

Melissa: – possibly. Yeah, and I, I, I think because he’s still on the, I’m just getting to learn it –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: – thing, I give that much grace –

Sarah: Yes.

Melissa: – but not much.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: Because, it’s like you are thirty-eight God-damn years old, sir.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: [Laughs] Like, it’s all, it’s all a mess.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: So in this I, I was mostly surprised the book wasn’t messier.

Sarah: Yes! It was –

Melissa: Because I, I, I was, after I saw the excerpts, I was kind of bracing for just ugly –

Sarah: Absolute mess.

Melissa: He was so kind –

Sarah: Yeah!

Melissa: – to his family.

Sarah: Yeah!

Melissa: Like, I, I truly believe that he does want reconciliation, though I do think he is prepared for it to never happening?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: But the things he could have said.

Sarah: Oh yeah. And I think he and Meghan have been very strategic in building a position of strength for themselves?

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: They moved to America, they signed deals, and he’s been upfront: I signed these deals to pay for my security because of who I am.

Melissa: Six million dollars? Uh!

Sarah: Right! Like, he –

Melissa: Uh!

Sarah: – and everyone has said the threat level against them is real, because the same absolutely irrational hatred that you have directed at people like the Obamas is directed at them, and –

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – that just absolute, instant, like, just people just lose all of their cool and start frothing at the mouth, and I’m like, I’m like, you don’t even know these people! These people are not people you know! Like, I have people who, you know, I can carry a grudge. I can have people I go off about. I mean, there are – come on! This is like a human thing.

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: I don’t have that much rage for people I don’t know!

Melissa: No. No. Like, there are very few people – like Donald Trump.

Sarah: Okay! Yeah, I’ll give you that one. That’s fine.

Melissa: But the thing is –

Sarah: Mitch McConnell, mm-hmm, yep.

Melissa: – amazing – oh God, oh God, oh God, oh God.

Sarah: Most of the Supreme Court, yeah, mm-hmm.

Melissa: [Laughs] But the difference is, those people have a direct impact on my life.

Sarah: Yes!

Melissa: The decisions they make actually do hurt me.

Sarah: Yes! But Harry and Meghan –

Melissa: Meghan and Harry fucking off to California? Hurts no one!

Sarah: No! But people are taking it so personally, and I’m like, why? Like, I am interested in this story, and I am interested, I – I am not lying to you, ma’am – I love the deconstruction of propaganda; it’s my favorite thing. [Laughs] I just love it so much!

Melissa: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, the whole, like, oh, let’s all – like, this is probably what comes out of growing up in, in my dysfunctional family is like, let’s all stop pretending that this is okay, ‘cause it’s not! ‘Cause it’s not. You know?

Melissa: You know, I think it’s fascinating; I think what, what really drew me to wanting to kind of have a talk about this book was the writing, because it’s –

Sarah: It’s so well written. It is just so good.

Melissa: It’s so well written because it’s, it’s not even just the prose, even though the prose is good; it’s how well constructed, because he could have told this story a million different ways.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: He could have done a million different snapshots and then –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: – told this story out, out of a, a linear context; could have started anywhere else.

Sarah: Yeah! My family –

Melissa: All, and they all come together –

Sarah: Yep. My family, my military, my wife.

Melissa: I mean, and just the way, just even bookends of opening in Frogmore and closing in Frogmore.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: There is a freaking point to that!

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: And it absolutely delivers on, this is why everything is so messed up.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: It was always messed up, but then it exploded and I left.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: Like, that’s, that’s the narrative arc. It’s just good story that you stay and pay attention.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: And the, there’s the right amounts of humor so that it’s just not a slogfest –

Sarah: No.

Melissa: – because those chapters after his mother passed were hard.

Sarah: Oh yeah. They were real hard to listen to. I want, I, I cannot imagine how hard they were for him to narrate. Like –

Melissa: To live.

Sarah: Yeah! And to relive it through telling it into a microphone and – and, and the other, the other aspect of this story is that he is telling a story about people he wants to be his family who routinely choose –

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – The Firm, the monarchy over –

Melissa: Over family.

Sarah: – over family. They will always choose the monarchy and the preservation of power over family. And I think that –

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – is very much a universal story. How many people do you know in a given family where one person is going to maintain this façade that everything is fine when in reality things are not fine? How many families have that one person that they prop up, or that one person they all whisper about like, Don’t be alone with that person. Don’t go – if they invite you over, don’t go. But they aren’t going to call out and say, This person is bad and is harmful, because the preservation of family name is so important.

Melissa: Mm. You over there preaching.

[Laughter]

Sarah: And the experience of growing up, I think a lot of people can relate to the experience of growing up in an environment where you realize, wait a minute, no one is going to look after me; no one is going to protect me; no one’s going to say –

Melissa: Yeah.

Sarah: – Nope, you’re right and we’re going to stand up for you. No one is going to be advocating on your behalf until you do it for yourself, and as a child you can’t. You can’t advocate for yourself. And you know what’s so sad? Like, I don’t, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for Kate because I think she’s kind of terrible? She seems really awful?

Melissa: She definitely feeds into the patriarchy, yes.

Sarah: Oh yeah, she is absolutely the, a foot soldier of the patriarchy. She is now the Princess of Wales, and even though Camilla was Princess of Wales –

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – she never used that title ‘cause she’s not stupid.

Melissa: Mm-mm. [Laughs]

Sarah: And the thing is, the last Princess of Wales that we all remember, Diana died at thirty-seven? Thirty-eight?

Melissa: I think so, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, Kate is –

Melissa: Thirty-six!

Sarah: Thirty-six!

Melissa: I think she was…

Sarah: Okay. Kate is now older than Diana, and she’s the Princess of Wales, and one thing I’ve noticed is how much Kate supporters Photoshop her till she is smooth and that the official portraits of her that are, that are being released are Photoshopped until she is extremely smooth, but she’s not allowed to age, and it’s awful!

Melissa: She’s not!

Sarah: She’s not allowed to age, and I’m like, my –

Melissa: She’s going to…

Sarah: – God!

Melissa: …problem in the next five years, ‘cause I can already kind of see it happening to her.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: In the next five years, and once you stop being the pretty thing –

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: – people can look at –

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: – they really start looking at you –

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: – and that is going to be a huge issue for her, because the, the thing that she had was her youth and being pretty and that she didn’t speak. A whole lot of people think she, she, she is not smart, but I think she is incredibly smart. Incredibly smart. She leaned into what was happening with Meghan because the way they were writing about her –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Melissa: – before Meghan came on the scene –

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Melissa: – it, it was bad. It wasn’t Meghan Markle bad, but it was work-shy, Miss Mumbles…

Sarah: Waity Katie. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: Waity Katie. Like, they went in on her every time she went out for an engagement.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: Every single time. She is going to have issues, and –

Sarah: Yes.

Melissa: – you know, I hope that someone will be there for her, because they are, as much as they lift you up, the press loves so much more to tear you down.

Sarah: It’s profitable! It’s very profitable.

Melissa: We can look at, we can look at Britney –

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: – they did it to Britney.

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: They did it, in, in some form they did, you know, to Hilary Clinton –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Melissa: – you know, ‘cause she was the strong wife who stayed beside her husband –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: – and she was fine until she wanted to be president.

Sarah: She was fine when she worked for other people, but when she tried to have power for herself, that was unacceptable.

Melissa: Oh no, no, no! You, the – you’re going above your station.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Melissa: And that’s what we do here, at least in America: we, we may not be as obsessed with class, but there are places that you are not supposed to be –

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: – if we didn’t approve it.

Sarah: One thing that absolutely makes me extremely joyful as a person who is, you know, adjacent to the bookselling industry is the number of copies this book has sold in simultaneous translation. First of all, I’m really glad this wasn’t a HarperCollins book so I can talk about it. Second of all –

Melissa: [Laughs] Yes!

Sarah: – the decision to release it simultaneously in so many language – like, in Germany? The German version was the top version, and then number two and number three were two different English versions. Like, it’s the top three book!

Melissa: All I can say is I had, I had me the pettiest laugh this week –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Melissa: – the pettiest of laughs. Watching the British media say, This book is going to flop; this, no one’s going to read it; no one is going to care. He’s going to have to sell – and it was, it – 1.4 million is a big number to pay.

Sarah: Very much so.

Melissa: Some people don’t even make it out of the tens. They might sell eight books.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: They might sell, a thousand is a good number for some.

Sarah: Oh, that would be a frigging miracle.

Melissa: …gets 1.4 million to, to make back his supposed advance of twenty million. That is a huge number. For him, what was it, 3.4, 3.6 –

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: – million books.

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: And somebody on my timeline was asking, Is that a good number? I’m like, girl –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Melissa: – if you didn’t know, not a single ‘nother God-damn book past this week, he is still going down in history. He is still going down in history. ‘Cause the fiction, nonfiction sales, those are huge numbers –

Sarah: That’s absolutely mammoth.

Melissa: – for someone that is irrelevant. [Laughs] “Irrelevant!” Heck, yeah!

Sarah: And he saw the American media stick up for him in a way that his family did not and in a way that the British media did not, because both –

Melissa: Yes.

Sarah: – both Michael Strahan and Anderson Cooper said, We reached out to Buckingham Palace for quotes. They told us they wanted the entire interview in advance, and as news organizations –

Melissa: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – we don’t do that. So, one, they stuck up for him, and two, they just underscored how absolutely corrupt the media organizations are who do comply with that request.

Melissa: Yes. ‘Cause if you imagine, they do that all the time –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Melissa: – over there.

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Melissa: We don’t do that here in America.

Sarah: No, we don’t; mm-mm.

So what do you think will be the aftermath of this book? What do you think this book will do in the book industry? What do you think this book will do in the royal family?

Melissa: Ooh.

Sarah: Like, what do you think the, the aftermath of this book will be?

Melissa: So I’m going to attack the easy question first. [Laughs] What is it going to do within the royal family? They’re already talking about them having to be more personable. Nine times out of ten what they’re going to do is they are going to ignore, continue to ignore what’s right there in their face, the easy solution –

Sarah: Yep.

Melissa: – and they’re really just going to wait for Kate and William’s kids to get old enough to do the whole playbook again.

Sarah: Oh, they, they’re –

Melissa: That is crazy.

Sarah: – they’re already setting up Louis as the –

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – the naughty one. We hope –

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – you know, Louis better do the walk to church this year. We want to see him, ‘cause he’s going to, you know, put his hand over his mother’s mouth and –

Melissa: Yeah, he’s, ‘cause he’s going to be so fine!

Sarah: Mm-mm. And, and Harry said that several times: This is going to keep happening. This is going to happen to my brother’s kids, and it’s not okay, and it needs to stop.

Melissa: So that’s my guess of, of how this book is going to affect the family. They, they honestly, truly believe that all of this can be fixed if Meghan and Harry divorce.

Sarah: Yep, and Harry comes back.

Melissa: But you don’t believe that.

Sarah: God, they’re high on their own farts.

Melissa: [Laughs]

Sarah: They really are.

Melissa: Now, what will it do to the book community? I don’t know, ‘cause that is a lot of freaking books.

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: So who’s the publisher? Is it…

Sarah: It’s Random House, Penguin Random House. Penguin Random House here and in the UK, and then a bunch of international publishers that worked with them to do the simultaneous translation. Also incredible how there were zero fucking leaks. How many translation copies are going on right now at the same time like in, you know, September, October, November?

Melissa: …copy only a week before the book released; that’s amazing.

Sarah: Yeah! And you know that stores put books out early, but like, yeah, fuck it, I don’t care; just put it out. It’s kind of…shelving it tomorrow. Fuck – I don’t care if it’s Tuesday; do it now. Like, you, you knew that was going to happen, and they found a Spanish copy and translated it badly, but even, you know, even when the queen was dying, you know those translations were in progress. You know there were multiple copies of that book out there, and not –

Melissa: Yes!

Sarah: – a single leak! Like, none!

Melissa: Like, how many books they had to print, those books have been around.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Melissa: Those books have been around for a minute.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Melissa: Just a – like, I, I think the only thing that did delay it to January was the fact that he wrote the epilogue –

Sarah: Yeah.

Melissa: – after, after his grandmother passed away.

Sarah: Yes, ‘cause I think they were aiming for the Christmas market. I think they were aiming for December and they moved it to January.

Melissa: Oh, I absolutely think so.

Sarah: Yeah, I agree with that.

Melissa: I absolutely think so. So the fact they only pushed it to the first, first week, second week of January –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: – that was, that was a smart move and –

Sarah: [Laughs] Imagine being all those translators. You think you’re done, and then the queen dies, and you’re like, Oh, God damn it! What?!

Melissa: [Laughs]

Sarah: Got to do more? Fuh! All right, send me the files! Fine! You thought you were done, but you’re not!

Melissa: No, the person I feel sorry for is person in, did the galleys.

Sarah: Oh God!

Melissa: Yeah, the person who had the format all the text; they had to do it all over again.

Sarah: You know there’s like a, you know there’s a copy of Vellum that’s just, like, sweating right now, having had to do all that formatting.

Melissa: [Laughs]

Sarah: Smoke coming out of the computer, and the Vellum program is like, Please stop! [Laughs]

Melissa: That’s hilarious! But no, I think Penguin is going to have a really great year! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah, they’re going to have a real good year. Mm, they’re going to have a –

Melissa: They’re going to have a really great year.

Sarah: They’re going to have a real good year. They can coast; they’re good.

Melissa: And I think, I think unfortunately what’s going to happen is that a whole lot more celebrities are probably going to get deals –

Sarah: I was –

Melissa: – for their books.

Sarah: – just thinking that. They’re going to be like, This’ll be the next Spare! This’ll be the new Spare! Like, no, this is –

Melissa: But the problem with phenomena is that you can’t recreate it.

Sarah: No.

Melissa: There’s never going to be another Prince Harry. I think even if Prince William decided to write a book, it would not sell this many –

Sarah: No!

Melissa: – at, at, at all. Kate? Maybe. But it wouldn’t sell this fast. But beside the points with, with Prince Harry and his book here –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: – well done.

Sarah: Oh gosh, yes.

Melissa: Well done.

Sarah: Extremely well done.

Thank you so much for doing this! I’ve had a freaking ball. This has been so much fun. Thank you so –

Melissa: Did we cover everything? Was anything left unsaid?

Sarah: Well, I have one more question for you; this is an easy one. Where can people find you if you wish to be found? Pimp all of your things, please.

Melissa: Okay! Well, right now you can find my website at www.themelissablue.com.

Sarah: Right.

Melissa: You can find my books, and you can find out more about my editing service. And really you can find me on Twitter shit-posting.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Good! Excellent!

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you so much to Melissa – [laughs] – for allowing me to be a creeper in her DMs and saying, Hey, you want to talk about Spare for like hours? I hope you enjoyed this conversation, and I’m really curious: if you read Spare, what did you think?

And as a reminder, so you don’t forget, next week is our Heaving Bosoms crossover event, so Monday, February 13th, in the Heaving Bosoms feed you’ll find part one of our discussion of The Madness of Lord Ian Mackenzie, and then part two will be right here on Friday, as usual, in the Smart Podcast, Trashy Books feed.

I always end each episode with a terrible, terrible joke, and this week is no exception. This joke is from Martin, from our Jokes channel in the podcast Patreon Discord, which is a truly lovely place on the internet. Thank you, Martin, for this incredible joke. Are you ready?

How do you beat a vampire in a game of cards?

How do you beat a vampire in a game of cards?

Intimidation: you raise the stakes.

[Laughs] Thank you, Martin!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

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