379. Dystopian Futures, Burnout, and More with Alyssa Cole

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hi there, and welcome to episode number 379 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and if you are queuing up some podcasts for holiday travels I hope that you will add this one, because this has immediately become one of my favorite episodes. I’m talking with Alyssa Cole today, and we start off talking about her Audible Original, The A.I. Who Loved Me, which releases on December 3rd, 2019. There are a lot of things she put in her imaginary near-future that are now coming true, so it’s pretty freaky. But we also talk a lot about burnout and the costs of working too much; we talk about her upcoming thriller, which you’re going to want to know all about; and we talk about overcoming hesitation to promote your own work. There are some really thoughtful, weighty topics in this episode, but we also laugh so much, so I hope this conversation is as uplifting and inspiring for you as it was for me.

This podcast is brought to you by The Rancher’s Redemption by Kate Pearce. New York Times bestselling author Kate Pearce returns with the second book in a new contemporary Western romance series, a spin-off of her successful Morgan Ranch series, focusing on a neighboring family with their own ranch and problems of the heart. Emphasizing family bonds, community, and the pride in hard work, this family saga is guaranteed to tug at the heartstrings as a widower and a single mother learn that sometimes it’s okay to lean on each other. The Rancher’s Redemption by Kate Pearce is on sale now wherever books are sold. For more information, visit kensingtonbooks.com.

Today’s podcast and the transcript are sponsored by Where Winter Finds You by J. R. Ward. Number one New York Times bestselling author J. R. Ward is heating things up this winter with a holiday novel featuring some of her most iconic Black Dagger brothers. Fans of the series will remember Trez and the heartbreak he suffered from The Shadows. He believed there was nothing left for him but grief, until a mysterious woman shows up in Caldwell and Trez is convinced she’s the reincarnation of his lost love. Therese has come to Caldwell fleeing demons of her own, but her attraction to Trez is undeniable. Can these two lost souls find healing and happiness at last? Well, ‘tis the season for magic. Where Winter Finds You by J. R. Ward is on sale now wherever books are sold. Find out more at jrward.com.

Today’s podcast is also brought to you by In the Unlikely Event by L. J. Shen. If you like Penny Reid, Vi Keeland, and Sophie Kinsella, you’ll love this contemporary comedy set in rural Ireland. Malachy Doherty and Aurora Jenkins fell in love when they were eighteen, but then she moved to America for college and never expected to see him again. The problem is, Aurora promised Mal she would marry him if they ever met again. They even signed a contract on a napkin. How was she supposed to know they’d actually meet? New York Times bestselling author Helena Hunting says this book is the perfect blend of soul-crushing angst, laugh-out-loud wit, and heart-melting romance, and New York Times bestselling author Kylie Scott called it a romance masterpiece. In the Unlikely Event by L. J. Shen is on sale now on Amazon and free with Kindle Unlimited. Find out more at authorljshen.com.

I want to make sure that I never miss an opportunity to thank the Patreon community that helps keep the show going every week. If you have supported the show with a monthly pledge of any amount, thank you. Your support means so much, and you help make sure that every episode is accessible to everyone. If you’d like to join the Patreon community, it would be wonderful if you did! Have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

And one last thing before we get started: to all of you who are traveling for the holidays, if you’re looking at not interacting with humanity and would like to consider audiobooks, Audible has the world’s largest selection of audiobooks and audio entertainment, including Audible Originals. You can start listening with a thirty-day Audible trial: choose one audiobook and two Audible Originals absolutely free. Visit audible.com/trashybooks, or text TRASHYBOOKS to 500-500. Now, if you sign up, you can get the Audible Original you’re about to learn all about, Alyssa Cole’s The A.I. Who Loved Me. It’s performed by Regina Hall and Mindy Kaling, among many others, and it’s really good. You can get a thirty-day Audible trial with one audiobook and two Audible Originals for free! Visit audible.com/trashybooks, or text TRASHYBOOKS to 500-500. Seriously, that’s so cool. That’s A-U-D-I-B-L-E dot com slash trashybooks, or text TRASHYBOOKS to 500-500.

Let’s get started with this interview, shall we? And make sure to listen in for the guest appearance of one Alyssa’s roosters. On with the podcast with Alyssa Cole.

[music]

Alyssa Cole: My name is Alyssa Cole, and I am a romance writer, and also, I guess, a thriller writer now, too? I have, this year I’ve finished my Reluctant Royals series, which is contemporary royalty romance, romantic comedy, and also my Loyal League series, which is Civil War espionage, historical romance. I have an Audible Original novella coming out that is sci-fi romance? And I’m currently working on a thriller. So yeah. [Laughs] Hi!

Sarah: So, so you write some things.

Alyssa: I write some things.

Sarah: Okay, that is such a list of things that I now want to ask you about, so strap in! Get ready! I know that you’re, you, you mentioned The A.I. Who Loved Me, which is an Audible Original, and I think that is just so interesting, that whole process. Can you tell me about the novella and what it was like writing an audio original?

Alyssa: So the Audible Original thing, it actually happened by chance. The, well, the story behind is I had actually started, for a while I didn’t really listen to audiobooks, because I thought I wouldn’t be able to concentrate, but then I started listening to more scripted podcasts, more, and then audiobooks, and I got really interested in them as a medium. They actually helped me a lot to focus when I was, you know, cleaning stuff around the house, driving, and I was like, wow, I can read so many books. [Laughs] I actually have time to read books now, because I can do it while I’m doing other things.

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: But anyway, I got really into it, and I was listening to, like, some scripted podcasts too, and I actually sent an email to my – well, I wrote an email to my agent saying, you know, what do you think about, like, audio or scripted podcasts? And then I didn’t send it. [Laughs] And then –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Okay?

Alyssa: – like, three days later, I get an email from my agent saying, hey, I got, I heard from someone at Audible, an editor at Audible who, you know, loves your work and is interested in working with you, and I, I was very confused.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: I went and checked the draft folder, and I did not accidentally send the email. So she was, like, very also confused by my reaction, ‘cause I was like, oh my God! This is – and I, you know, I was, like, freaking out because it seemed like it was meant to be. [Laughs] So yeah. So then I ended up speaking with Rose Hilliard at Audible, who’s my editor at Audible, who’s great. The A.I. Who Loved Me is the first book hopefully in a series, and it kind of –

Sarah: Oooh, you said the S word!

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alyssa: You know, started off as a, a one-and-done, and then as it was going I, like, of course she had friends and there, you know, there’s this whole, the world that they’re in, that, that needs some resolution. But basically, it was pretty cool because I was like, okay, at the beginning I was just like, well, this will be fun; I’ll write a short novella. And I had some ideas that I hadn’t been able to use for other projects, like – and, like, this is the thing too: like, I had started one project, done a bunch of work on it, and then it didn’t go anywhere. Started another project, done a bunch of work, and it didn’t go anywhere. But then when Audible reached out to me I was a-, and they were like, do you have anything in particular that, you know – they, they basically, I had to pitch something to them. I had something ready to go because I was like, oh, well, I can take this from that project that failed. I can – or not that failed; that didn’t succeed – [laughs] – or didn’t work out when it, ‘cause it wasn’t meant to be yet – take something from this other project, and then it came together to become The A.I. Who Loved Me. I was really going for kind of like a ‘90s action romantic comedy thriller kind of thing? Not – like, basically like the sensation of Speed. Not actual Speed, but, like, the sensation that Speed gave me watching it, where it’s like, these people are in this situation. This, it’s, like, in the near future. It’s a woman who’s in an apartment complex with her, her friends, and her job is a virtual, basically like a virtual Über driver. The cars are supposed to –

Sarah: It’s so cool.

Alyssa: The cars are – [laughs] –

Sarah: It’s so cool!

Alyssa: The cars are supposed to be driverless, but, like, they really just have humans, you know, around the world in various locations driving them from their home driving stations. She used to work for a government agency, but after being involved in an accident she just has decided to take this job. She’s suffering from some PTSD, and basically one of, she has an, an older neighbor who, one day her hot nephew shows up, hot and very strange, and they start to get to know one another. They’re kind of thrown together when something happens to the neighbor, and she finds out that he is actually a robot, and she decides to help him, help continue what her neighbor was doing, which was teaching him how to be human.

Sarah: One of the things I love about the worldbuilding in this novella – and, and I’m really excited because you sent me the script, which means that I can read it and, you know, prepare for the interview like a good podcaster –

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: – but then, then I get to listen to it, which is super cool! But one of the things I love about the worldbuilding is that so much of the technology that surrounds the main characters is inhuman, and it’s replacing humans with machines, or it’s treating humans as machines –

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: – and the central focus of the romance is teaching a machine how to become more and more human.

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: Nicely played, ma’am.

Alyssa: [Laughs] I will honestly say that, you know, I’ve always been interested in this stuff, but I feel like since I’ve, you know, completed the manuscript, I see more and more things every day that I added to the manuscript just – oh, this would be funny, or this would be interesting, or kind of like, you know, a logical conclusion of where things can go, and they, like, you know, me thinking this is, like, in the future –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – but then I keep seeing things popping up, like, on my Twitter timeline that it’s like, oh! [Laughs] This is like that thing! This is like that thing! This is like that! So I’m just like, it’s happening, and those are the things that, you know, not to be all conspiracy theorist, but no company reveals the highest level of what they’ve achieved. They just are putting out what they can market, and then what they can market next, and then what they can market next. So, like, I just find it extremely, like, I’m kind of fascinated with where we go from here, where we are heading, and then also, you know, adding romance into it. [Laughs]

Sarah: And humanity.

Alyssa: And humanity.

Sarah: So you were going to message me about doing a podcast when I messaged you.

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: You were going to email your agent about doing Audible Originals; she emailed you about doing an Audible book. You wrote a whole bunch of futuristic technology that then has now shown up in your Twitter timeline. Have you thought about being some kind of oracle, because –

Alyssa: Uhhh –

Sarah: – you could probably predict some futures here.

Alyssa: I don’t –

Sarah: Just putting that out there. [Laughs]

Alyssa: I am, I am probably a witch. Most of my –

Sarah: Yeah, I was going to say!

Alyssa: [Laughs] Most of my powers are cat-related, unfortunately. The cat –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Hey, no, no, no, I thought it was your husband who would, would take a walk and find twelve kittens!

Alyssa: Oh yeah, I mean, he has his own animal powers.

[Laughter]

Sarah: The two of you are very dangerous, cat-wise!

Alyssa: One day we will lead the Cat Army.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: No, my plan is to just write some books with really, really great outcomes for the world and hope that –

Sarah: Okay.

Alyssa: – and hope that this is actually true. [Laughs]

Sarah: I love this plan. Especially because of how much the worldbuilding in The A.I. Who Loved Me is incredibly probable, that a single company has become a private sector of the government and controls so much of what we do and how much we’re observed and how much we participate. Even the idea that we all watch other people doing things on YouTube has become something that people watch all the time now in your world.

Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: That’s really quiet prescient. Did you scare the crap out of yourself writing some of this?

Alyssa: [Laughs] I didn’t, but, like, just kind of while writing it and then seeing how it’s playing out, where things are going in the way that these –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Alyssa: – these kinds of things aren’t really being controlled. People –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – it’s the Wild West in tech. People, as long as they get donors, can basically do whatever they want. Government infrastructure around the world is, you know, are crumb-, crumbling. The infrastructures of actual countries are crumbling, like, you know, the trains in, in New York, and, like, you know, all the things you can think of –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – bridges, pipes. And this all sounds like, if you’re listening, this all sounds like it’s set in a super dystopia, but, like, the actual book itself mostly takes place at this apartment complex –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – so you, like, the re-, you know, as the reader, or as the listener, you’re getting, you learn slowly, like, what this world is actually like. It’s very much influenced by what’s going on in the world today and what are the possible outcomes. And, like, I love robot boyfriends; I’m obsessed with robot – [laughs] – robot partners and robots who can love, and I have been since I was a kid, but there’s also this idea of, like, what space it’s taking up in our lives, a lot of times –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – without us even thinking about it? Like, for example, right now my phone is recording what we’re saying, because –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – I have WhatsApp. I have a microphone on the phone. At some point –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – I’ll go on Twitter and there, I mean, I’ll go on Instagram and it will show me an ad for something that we talked about.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Alyssa: So, but, like, that sounds so incredibly scary – [laughs] – when you think about it, but it literally is just normal for us now.

Sarah: It is, it, it’s normal, and it’s, it, it varies how individual people tolerate that in-, that inclusion or invasion of technology in their lives. I, I know that you have a super tech background and you’re interested in science, and like you said, you’ve always been interested in the, the possibility of a robot boyfriend. What sorts of things did you learn about artificial intelligence while writing this? What kind of cool research did you find?

Alyssa: Well, you know, I, I read a lot of articles; I listened to a lot of podcasts with people working in the artificial intelligence field, and I think the podcasts were the most incredibly helpful because, you know, people, to a certain extent, scientists who are working on this are sharing their research because they, they want other people to, you know, make progress too. But I just found out, you know, a lot of things I didn’t understand – [laughs] – to be perfectly honest –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – ‘cause I’m, I’m not a scientist, but, like, hearing how people spoke about it, but also just the things that go into artificial intelligence, and one of the things that goes into it is us! Humans! For example, I was listening to one podcast with a guy working on deep learning and artificial intelligence and emotion. He said something that really struck me; he was like, we gather data. There are people who input their moods, you know, daily, and then we gather the data and track the moods, and then we analyze that, and that’s, you know, becomes part of the deep learning for the artificial intelligence and blah-blah-blah. And I was thinking about it, and then I was like, wait a minute. I was like, who are these people? Because I had, months before that, downloaded a mood tracker app? It’s just supposed to be so, you know, you can track your mood swings and see what the correlations are and stuff like that.

Sarah: Totally, yeah!

Alyssa: And it was free! And I was like, oh cool, and I just used it, and I was like, he didn’t, the, something about the way he said,  people input their moods, without saying, like, we have hired people to do this, or, we are doing a study and people are doing this, I mean, I, I don’t know the answer to this, but I was like, what are they doing with the data that I put into this app daily? What are they using it for? Why – I mean, some people are doing things out of, you know, just the, the greater good and to help people and put this free app, but I don’t know what they’re doing with this data. And it’s not necessarily nefarious –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – but, like, so just thinking about, like, all the things, and even the thing like when you’re on, you try to sign up or sign into a website and you have to do that I’m Not a Robot, the CAPTCHA or reCAPTCHA or whatever it’s called –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and, like, for the longest time I, I did not know what that was, but it’s real-, it’s helping artificial intelligence – [laughs] – like, visual artificial intelligence. That’s why you have to pick out all of the crosswalk, that’s why you have to pick out the bikes or the storefront, because then that’s being catalogued somewhere. So I was just thinking, you know, of all the ways that, in our daily life, this artificial intelligence is part of our daily life in ways that we don’t even think about – I downloaded an app that was a meeting app that was supposed to transcribe meetings, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – after listening to people for a few minutes it can determine who they are and then do the transcript and, like, apply names to who the people are using artificial intelligence, but that information can also be used to train artificial intelligence to sound more human, like, and hypothetically. So, like, these are just all of the things and all of, like, the kind of ideas that, where I started, because, like, writing this kind of stuff is kind of like just becoming a conspiracy theorist? [Laughs] Like, you start seeing things everywhere –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alyssa: – where you’re like, oh, I bet they can use that for that, and I bet they can use that for that, and, you know, as long as you don’t go too far with it it’s fine, but, but then sometimes you’re right! [Laughs] That if, if I can think of it, like, genius scientists can think of it. So that’s kind of like what the researching was like, and – and, like, you know, a lot of people don’t think artificial intelligence will get to the point where robots can think and feel like humans, so you know, there is the fantasy aspect of that, but, like, people are working on it to try to make it happen, just thinking about how that fits into our current society.

Sarah: And the idea that if you are using something for free, then you are not the customer –

Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – you’re the data. You are the information. You are the product to be sold –

Alyssa: Exactly.

Sarah: – eventually.

Alyssa: Exactly.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: I mean, even Gmail, like, now it starts to autocorrect for us? That’s because it’s been reading our emails –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – for how many years now? [Laughs]

Sarah: And it knows what phrases we use.

Alyssa: I saw today that Spotify Premium is giving away, like, Google mini home systems, and people are like, oh, that’s so cool; I’m going to get it! And it’s like, yeah, they’re literally giving away free recording devices to put in your home! [Laughs] Like, okay, I know people listening to this right now are probably like, what? There’s a ro-, is this a, a romantic comedy? [Laughs] It is, but, but it also –

Sarah: Oh, it absolutely is!

Alyssa: – you know, in the background is kind of exploring all of these aspects of technology and what role it plays in our lives.

Sarah: One of the things I also like about the story is that in the very beginning, the heroine is engaging with her therapist digitally.

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: And there’s this human connection to a person who is helping her work through trauma, and for some people the idea of connecting to a person virtually can be lifesaving, because they can’t get to a person in, you know, in the actual space that they’re in for a whole host of reasons. So there’s this – in the comedy: yes, I promise y’all, I promise it’s a comedy! – there is this balance between technology and humanity and which one is taking advantage of the other.

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: Which is, you know, it’s, it’s all pretty big stuff for a novella.

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: You know, it’s not a big word count; piece of cake. When you were writing it, because it was an audio original, did you have to think in terms of a script? Like, I noticed in the script that you sent me there were sound effects. Did you add those, or did Audible add those?

Alyssa: I added those. So yeah, I –

Sarah: Very cool.

Alyssa: – I did try to think about it. Like, some parts of it are transcripts, and some parts of it are just, you know, prose. For the transcripts, I did try to think of it as kind of like an audio play in some ways.

Sarah: Yeah!

Alyssa: I tried to think about funny sound effects or what the emotional effect of a sound effect would be at a certain point –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alyssa: – what kind of music would be in this commercial –

Sarah: Yes.

Alyssa: – things like that. I, I have not heard the final product yet, but I know they were working really hard on it, the sound production team, and, like, I don’t know, it was just, for me it was really fun because it was just tapping into a different way of, of thinking about things when I write, because, I mean, I generally write pretty visually or, like,  cinematically, I guess. Like, I’m imagining it playing out before my eyes, but, like, also trying to think, hone in on sound and what, what would affect me just listening to something, and it was like a fun, a fun and different writing experience.

Sarah: There are some moments, like the commercial for the dishwasher made me laugh so hard and be –

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: – the first – I won’t spoil it, but it – [laughs] – it is so funny and so very subtly snarky at the same time! And then there’s, there’s a moment with the initial contact between Penny, who is the heroine’s sort of digital assistant, virtual –

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: – digital assistant, and the hero is all sound. I cannot wait to hear what that sounds like, because just reading the script I was like, oh wait! Is that like this sound, or is it that other sound –

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: – from, like, when two modems would talk. Like, what sound is this? I can’t wait to hear it! Like, it’s going to be so fun!

Alyssa: Yeah, and that was actually one of the things that was funny. I’m not sure what sound they used at the end, but I wanted, I wanted it to be the modem sound, even though I, you know, I know that’s not the sound, what the sound was used for, but I just was thinking of what that sound means to me?

Sarah: Yes!

Alyssa: And, like – [laughs] – or, and people who used to have to do a dial-up modem.

Sarah: Oh, oh, I remember it well!

Alyssa: So I just thought that, you know, what are the ways this can be played for comedy or also nostalgia in the script? I am excited to hear it too, to also, to hear how that part came out.

Sarah: And it’s being narrated by some absolutely incredible people.

Alyssa: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: So Mindy Kaling and Regina Hall and Feodor Chin. What, what was your reaction when you found out how many people were involved and who they were?

Alyssa: Again, this was one of those things that came out of nowhere. Like, I really, I, I was super excited when, you know, the, the project came to be. I was worried at one point because right before I was supposed to, like, really dive into writing it, I burnt out. Like, completely burnt out and couldn’t work or really do anything? Which, honestly, when I reread the book – [laughs] – as I was editing, I was like, oh. [Laughs more] Some of that is in here.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: So I was just like, oh, you know, I kind of messed up this chance that they gave me, and I’m late because I’m, I’m unable to, to do anything right now, but they were really understanding, and then on top of it they were like, oh yeah, we’re going to have, like, these celebrities read the book, and I was just like, what? [Laughs] I –

Sarah: Huh?!

Alyssa: – it, it didn’t make any sense to me. I mean, I just, I, I of course was happy, but I also still have not fully processed that that’s actually a thing that happened? But yeah, so Regina Hall is playing Trinity.

Sarah: Amazing. Amazing!

Alyssa: And Mindy Kaling is Penny. [Laughs]

Sarah: I love this so much.

Alyssa: Feodor Chin is Li Wei. There are also some other supporting cast members, so apparent-, you know, they, they had, like, a full cast recording for certain scenes. But yeah, I was just super excited. I was particularly excited about Regina Hall, because part of this too was kind of thinking about, like, the ‘90s romantic comedies and the variety of them and the fact that there were never really action comedy ones with Black heroines?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: I mean, even romantic comedy in general, they’re, they obviously do exist – I’m not going to say they don’t exist – but the, the variety of roles provided for Black women and other actresses of color was not really going on in the ‘90s, and, you know, still is, there’s a pretty big dearth now; that’s starting to change. The other day, the Modern Love Amazon anthology show launched, and there were no Black heroines in the entire series. So just, like, part of the, when I was writing it as this kind of like specific action thriller romantic comedy was imagining, you know, actresses – [laughs] – that I’ve seen in romantic comedies. So then having it turn, you know, in the end, it being Regina Hall, who has, like, this, like, long career and is a great comedic actress and a great romantic comedy actress, it was, just turned out to be super awesome. And also I got to talk to her on the phone, and I almost died. [Laughs]

Sarah: [Gasps] No! Oh my gosh! What was that like? Did you have your head between your knees the whole time?

Alyssa: I was walking around in circles in my house, and then even after I hung up the phone I just, like, continued to walk around in circles for like half an hour. [Laughs] And I will say that she’s super nice and I love her. She, she was just a super, super awesome person to talk to. Yeah, so I’m really look- – I did get to hear a snippet of, of the audio, and it was in production, and it sounded so good, so I’m excited.

Sarah: I am so excited for you? [Laughs]

Alyssa: But I actually, I did –

Sarah: I mean, that’s –

Alyssa: – I did scream –

Sarah: That sounds incredible!

Alyssa: – when, when I got the email. Like, I don’t usually have outsized emotional reactions like that when it comes to work?

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Alyssa: But I did scream, so.

[Laughter]

Sarah: You mentioned that you are working on a thriller. Is that the thing that’s, the project that’s right in front of you right now?

Alyssa: Yeah. I’m about to send another draft in, hopefully today! [Laughs]

Sarah: Ooh, fingers crossed.

Alyssa: So this –

Sarah: I know this is about gentrification.

Alyssa: Yeah. So the basic pitch is like Rear Window meets Get Out? [Laughs] And it’s a woman living in a Brooklyn neighborhood who grew up there, who moved away for a little bit and came back, a guy who has bought a house together with his girlfriend, but then things didn’t work out between them, who kind of get thrown together and start to notice some weird things going on in the neighborhood, especially after a corporation has won a deal to put their headquarters in the neighborhood. You know, that’s another thing. Like I said, you start to become a conspiracy theorist, ‘cause I’m writing a lot of this stuff and I’m like, this isn’t even fake! Like –

[Laughter]

Alyssa: Like, I mean, but that’s the same, I, I had the same feeling when I was writing the Loyal League series, which is kind of suspense and thriller-ish, of, of, like –

Sarah: Yes.

Alyssa: – you know, you’re adding these things, and it’s like, yes, it’s fiction, but, like, it’s not far from reality. I will say that yesterday I was writing something and I freaked myself out so much that I – [laughs] – I had to stop writing?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alyssa: Like, I started to get, you know, like when you get, like, the anxiety and, between your shoulder blades? And I was like –

Sarah: Oh yes. Oh yes, I get that, like, when I read ghost stories or I read stories –

Alyssa: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: – with, like, really creepy encounters, I start to be like, all right, I need to get away from this.

Alyssa: Yeah. I was like –

Sarah: I need to stop! [Laughs]

Alyssa: – I think, I think I’ll take a coffee break or something, ‘cause this is getting a little intense. So hopefully readers feel that way too – [laughs] – when they’re reading it.

Sarah: Oh man.

Alyssa: But yeah, that’s cool, and it’s been, it’s optioned by Temple Hill, who possibly will make it into a movie, so that would be cool.

Sarah: [Gasps] Congratulations! I did not know that!

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: Oh, that’s amazing! Way to go!

Alyssa: Thank you.

Sarah: Oh, how cool. So is there any romance in the thriller? Are they thrown together, and are there sexy shenanigans as well?

Alyssa: There are sexy shenanigans.

Sarah: I love a good sexy shenanigans.

Alyssa: It’s not, like, the main focus, but –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – you know how I write. It’s, it’s pretty, it’s pretty high up there. [Laughs]

Sarah: Awesome!

Alyssa: The basic premise is that, like, she decides she’s tired of tourists coming through her neighborhood, like historical tours that don’t –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – focus on the actual people who live in the neighborhood or people who look like the people that live in the neighborhood, and decides to make her own tour, and as they start doing research starts to discover some things. For me, it’s a very personal project too, because, you know, my, I’m from the Bronx and from Jersey City.

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: Jersey City, downtown Jersey City, where, where I mostly grew up, underwent a huge gentrification, and –

Sarah: Oh, yes it did.

Alyssa: [Laughs] Oh, you know, you know.

Sarah: Like, you and I lived there. You and I –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: We didn’t know this, but we lived there at around the same time or very close to the same time, and I remember –

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: – going, oh! Things changed so fast! Holy cow!

Alyssa: Yeah, and I mean, like, it literally was like, I was at college; it felt like I was, you know, away – I mean, I didn’t go far; I was in Jersey – but, like, I come home to visit, and then there’s, like, a huge monster condominium out of nowhere.

Sarah: Yeah! Oh yeah.

Alyssa: So a lot, a lot of the thriller, or a lot of the kind of terror of it in the thriller is based on those, like, moments of, like –

Sarah: I don’t recognize anything!

Alyssa: – I – seeing the things you thought you knew, the things that would always be there, like, erased –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Alyssa: – without you even noticing?

Sarah: Oh yeah. I went, I went home to Pittsburgh for a funeral. Apparently I’m at the age where now my friends’ parents pass away, so I go to funerals –

Alyssa: Ohhh.

Sarah: – which is not something I expected? I mean, it’s normal – aging and mortality happen – but I was like, oh, oh! That’s, that’s the stage! Okay, that’s where I am now. So I went home to Pittsburgh. My middle school is gone, has been replaced by multicolored condos.

Alyssa: Mm.

Sarah: The factory that used to belong to Nabisco is now the Bakery Square area, and Google is there. It is really scary and disorienting to think I –

Alyssa: And then it’s – [laughs] –

Sarah: – I, I walked here every day! I walked to the school every day, and it’s, it’s just gone. Like, it’s not even there; the building is gone, everything looks different, and yet I was at that place hundreds and hundreds of times in my life –

Alyssa: Yep.

Sarah: – and it’s, it’s really disorienting!

Alyssa: It is, and it’s like even, and I lived in Brooklyn for – how many years? A long time; basically from after college until I moved to Martinique.

Sarah: Brooklyn hasn’t changed at all in that time, no! Oh my gosh, yes!

Alyssa: [Laughs] And it, and I lived all over; I lived in Park Slope, I lived in Williamsburg, I lived in Fort Greene, I lived in Bed-Stuy, and just seeing the changes, I, I doubt I could afford to live any of those places anymore. [Laughs]

Sarah: I was going to say, you lived, you, you really are some kind of oracle!

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: Really! Like, you lived in all of the places that are now impossible to live in! You are!

Alyssa: Well, I was basically – [laughs] – I was basically doing, like, what peop-, you know, moving to pl-, the places you can afford. Like, when I lived in Park Slope I was in, like, some illegal apartment, like, right down by the, by the overpass –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – where all the car dealerships were. [Laughs] It didn’t have a sink. Okay – [laughs more] –

Sarah: What, what?

Alyssa: When I moved into the apartment it was, I didn’t realize that it was this one-bedroom apartment cut in half, and I –

Sarah: [Gasps]

Alyssa: – [laughs] – I took – so, when he showed it to me, they were like, oh, there’s no stove, so you’ll have to get, like – and I was like, I can get a hot plate or what-, you know.

Sarah: Yeah. I can make this work.

Alyssa: And then I moved in, and the movers were like, the other apartment wasn’t occupied yet, and they started moving all my kitchen stuff into the kitchen there, and I was like, no, you can put it in here, and they were like, where’s your kitchen? There’s no sink in here, and I was like – ‘cause, you know, it’s one of those things that you’re so used to seeing that of course there was a sink in the –

Sarah: Why would you – right, why would you look for the sink?

Alyssa: And then I basically –

Sarah: Just to see if it’s there.

Alyssa: – just had, like, a breakdown. I called the people, and they were like, you can just wash your dishes in the bathroom! And I –

Sarah: [Gasps]

Alyssa: [Laughs]

Sarah: No! No, no! Oh my God!

Alyssa: And, and I was like, I believe this is against the housing laws; I might have to go ask someone about that, and then they were like, oh, we can get you a sink.

Sarah: Oh! Yes, they can, huh?

Alyssa: And, like, literally – ‘cause they were saying all this stuff, there are no pipes and blah-blah, and, like, a couple days later a guy came with one of those big plastic mop sinks that, you know, usually are –

Sarah: Oh my God!

Alyssa: – in the back of a restaurant? And then it had, like, a little handle like from a grammar school bathroom. Like the little, the little faucet –

Sarah: Oh, oh God. Like a utility sink.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: Oh, nice.

Alyssa: But you know, I, I really decorated that apartment very nicely, but it was, it was, it was a, it had a character I guess I’ll say.

Sarah: And now that apartment is worth seven and a half million dollars!

Alyssa: [Laughs] I would not be surprised. It’s actually probably, it’s actually probably been torn down and replaced with, like, a twenty-story condominium or something.

Sarah: Oh, I’m sure. Multicolored. [Laughs]

Alyssa: Yes. Or with a glass front maybe.

Sarah: Oh my God.

Alyssa: But yeah, so basically the thriller is kind of like harnessing this kind of dread that fills you when you see something that’s supposed to be recognizable and it totally isn’t. But, like, and I mean, even while I was living, the last couple years when I was living in Bed-Stuy, things were changing so quickly, and, like – [laughs] – one of the things that I always kind of think of that makes me laugh is that there was this fried chicken restaurant that I used to love going to, and when Mr. Cole would come to visit we would go to the restaurant, and I mean he’s, like, white, he’s French, but we would go to this restaurant, and then one day, one of the last times before I moved to Martinique, we went to the restaurant and he was like, uh, everyone here is white. [Laughs] But I was like, that was, like, how quickly the, the neighborhood had changed and the clientele –

Sarah: Whoa!

Alyssa: – of the restaurant had changed. And I mean, there were, but it was like, so kind of that, like, you know, you look up one day and it’s like every- –

Sarah: Wait a minute!

Alyssa: – everything is kind of different. And I mean, he didn’t even live here! He, like, he didn’t even live there, and he was like, oh – [laughs] – this is getting kind of weird. So it’s kind of about that. It’s, it’s somewhat intense to be writing, but it’s –

Sarah: Just a bit, yeah. So you tweeted recently that you are not required to apologize for promoting your work, and that really spoke to me. I’m really good at promoting lots of other people’s work –

Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – but I’m not so good at promoting my own. Is that something you struggle with too?

Alyssa: It’s something that I used to struggle with a lot. I still struggle with it. I still want to apologize sometimes. I still don’t, you know, do as much actual advertising as I should be doing? Because of the, you know, I don’t want to annoy people. I don’t want to, like, be all in the timeline and getting on people’s nerves. But at the same time, I feel like this is really something that people, not everyone feels this sensation. And then I’ll just, sometimes I’ll be scrolling and I’ll see, like, within the same scroll I’ll see, like, a woman or, you know, someone from a marginalized background like, hey, I did this thing! If you want to check it out, or sorry to annoy you, or I’ll be done advertising soon, and then in the same scroll you can see, like, some dude like, yeah, my book came out! Everyone should buy it so I can hit the New York Times list. And it’s like – [laughs] –

Sarah: Whoooa! That’s, that’s different!

Alyssa: So, and even if it’s not always that thing, it’s kind of like – and I’m not, again, I’m not, I’m not trying to say that every single dude is so confident and does this, but in general, the trends of who is confident and about just being like even, I have a book out today! Here is a tweet with the cover and the links for you to buy the book. I see so many authors literally just saying, my book is out today! They don’t offer any way for people to buy it, and I think it’s not that they don’t know; it’s that they feel somehow it’s presumptuous of them to assume that people – like, oh, if they want it they’ll go find it, I guess. I don’t want to, like, put the link. It, when you say it out loud it doesn’t make any sense.

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: But I often see people not even give people a way to find their work, or they’ll retweet someone, only retweet someone else saying to buy their book? They will kind of like talk around it. You can see that they’re uncomfortable –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – promoting their own work, or even kind of acknowledging that they would like other people to buy it or, you know, read it or whatever the work is, whether it’s a book or an article or whatever. So I feel like –

Sarah: That they have an ambition.

Alyssa: Yeah. And I think that this, there really is this idea and, like, a fear of being slapped down, a fear of, you know, people saying, oh, she must be full of herself or that your showing off, and it’s just like, well – [laughs] – no. But also, like, so what? Like, as long as you’re not spamming people’s timeline and being like, yes, I’m the best writer in the world, and screw all you other guys, like, I see, obviously, because I, I feel it, but that’s also what annoys me, because I know it’s not logical? [Laughs] But yet I also feel the same urge to kind of make myself smaller when I talk about my achievements?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: You know, on a personal level, a lot of times I, when I talk about something, I try not to be, like, so enthusiastic, ‘cause I don’t want to be annoying. Or, or I’m like, oh, I just talked about something yesterday. Should I, like – I guess I just won’t talk about this, ‘cause I don’t want to seem like I’m like, whatever. But I, I do thing this is just a general thing of being made to feel like you, you should achieve, you should go after your dreams, but if you achieve it, don’t, you know, don’t get a big head about it, or don’t expect other people to, like, care about it. I think it’s kind of this general thing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – ‘cause, like, you know, you think about, like, the writing community and how everyone supports each other, but then it reaches a certain point and people get scared to say, okay, yeah, I’ve been working all this time on this book, and now it’s here! Here is where you can buy it. No one’s going to get mad because you’re – [laughs] – trying to sell your book or talking about something good that happened to you. And, like, you know, maybe someone will, but who cares about them? Like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – it’s just like such a bizarre, you know, like, it’s, it’s like this weird mental catch-22 of, like, oh, I don’t want to annoy people by, like, saying I have a book on sale today, but, like, if someone is annoyed by you saying a book on sale today, they weren’t going to buy the – like, they’re not your audience. [Laughs] But the people who are your audience are then missing out. And I can only really speak to romance, but I feel like there’s always this, like, deeply entrenched hesitation –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – at people talking about their work or actively promoting their work.

Sarah: Their achievements, yeah.

Alyssa: The thing is, like, people are supportive if you talk about those things.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: So, but it’s like something I think that comes from, not from Romancelandia, but from society, how society has treated so many people who work and write in Romancelandia, so we kind of bring those things with us –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – even though in general those are not, it’s not something we should be worrying about within our own community.

Sarah: It’s real, but it’s not the whole reality.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: What sorts of things do you do to look after yourself and take care of your creative self?

Alyssa: I’m trying to, I’m actually just getting back into things. So like I said earlier, in February I had, well, like the end of January and then, like, into February I had, like, a really intense burnout.

Sarah: Ugh.

Alyssa: Like, as in going to the doctor and, am I dying? Okay, getting these scans. Am I having a heart attack?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: What is this sensation?

Sarah: Oh man.

Alyssa: And, like, physically not being able to write. Like, literally unable. I had ideas, but, like, my body had a physical reaction when I sat down in front of the computer. So, and the thing is that leading up to that burnout I had started, you know, I’ve been, okay, using a treadmill every day and getting, you know, exercising, but the thing is, it was too late. I was already in, I – and this is the thing with burnout: I was already in it, ‘cause I was like, am I burnt out again, or, like, is this PMS? What is happening? I mean, I think it was PMS – [laughs] – but –

[Laughter]

Alyssa: – but when you reach a certain level of burnout, like, you’re already there before, it’s already too late to really stop it, or, or to, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – you can’t self-care your way out of it. So right now I try to do, to take – and it took a while, like, over the summer, when I was traveling, I was getting really exhausted, and then I realized, like, I never fully recovered from the burnout, because at a certain point it was like, okay, I am able to sit and write. I need to, I have a book that has a deadline, and I need to write it, so I did feel much better –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – and I think for most writers or people, creatives in general, we’re always in varying stages of burnout?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Yeah!

Alyssa: So I, you know, I just remember, before I had mine, I just remembered there was, like, a spate of seeing several people, like, with hospital selfies? I mean, they weren’t, they weren’t, like, you know, being like, ha, cool! But, like, just how many authors, and particularly authors from marginalized backgrounds, were literally burning themselves out to the point of ending up in the hospital? I, right now, after that, I try to – so I still have, you know, a lot of deadlines that have to be met ‘cause I need money.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: All of these animals are not going to feed themselves. But, so I try to think of, you know, I’ve gotten back into a workout routine. I’m not, I’m working on routines. I started doing, you know, I got back to my aquabiking, aquabiking, which whenever I talk about it to people they’re like, who are not in France, they’re like, what is that? It’s basically like spin class, but in a pool? You, they put a bike in the pool –

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: – and then you ride it and it’s fun, and you can float around. The last month I started doing pole dancing? [Laughs]

Sarah: Ohhh, how is it going?

Alyssa: I am terrible.

[Laughter]

Alyssa: But it, so it’s actually really interesting, because the first class, pole dancing is extremely hard, but that’s why –

Sarah: Oh gosh, yes.

Alyssa: – that’s why it’s, like, a good fitness workout, because you’re working your core, you’re working your – and especially for me, like, I’m slouched, usually spend most of my time slouched over in a chair, so I wanted something that was kind of like full-body fitness but also fun. It was a totally random thing. I was, like, passing some table. I was at the mall, and there was, like, an activities fair, and I passed a table, and actually I saw another bald woman, and I was like, oh, what’s this? [Laughs] One of my bald sistren is doing something, and she was the pole dancing instructor.

Sarah: Ooh!

Alyssa: And I mean, she’s amazing. [Laughs] Like, I’m basically like, you know, awkwardly hanging off of the thing, but it takes time. You have to build up your muscles; you have to –

Sarah: Yes.

Alyssa: – build up your back strength, your core strength, your leg strength, and the first class, I was telling someone, like, the first class, literally in the middle of the class I was like, I’m leaving. Like, I hate this, this is terrible, and then I was just like, I don’t actually hate this. I hate the fact that I’m doing something I’m not good at? And something that –

Sarah: Ohhh, important distinction!

Alyssa: Yeah. I hate that I’m doing something I might never be good at? And other people are seeing me not be good at something? So that was actually when I decided to keep doing it, you know, at least for a few months to see how I feel about it, because, like, I wanted to kind of be, learn how to sit with discomfort and to learn how to sit with – because I, it’s not that I hate it; I actually do enjoy it. I just don’t enjoy not being good at things. [Laughs] So –

Sarah: Which I, I, which is an important thing to know! [Laughs]

Alyssa: Yeah. So it, it’s been interesting. It is a great workout. It’s fun. It’s a little weird. Like, just, like, going to class in your underwear, whatever, but – [laughs] – but it’s interesting. My, I am going to keep doing it and see how it goes. So that’s like, actually, for me, that was something, the aquabiking and, like, other fitness stuff, and, like, you know, yeah, yeah, I don’t want to be that annoying person. It is good for my, for me personally, for my mental health. It’s good for my mental health –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – but the thing is, it’s not a cure, and, like, I know a lot of people get annoyed when people talking, talk about, like, exercise and mental health, and this is, like, somewhat related, because after the burnout I started doing yoga? And I started –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – doing yin yoga? It’s kind of like a lot of sitting and holding pose – it’s not like, I, my balance sucks, so I don’t –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Pole dancing will help with that too, I imagine!

Alyssa: I, I hope, I hope. But, like, I literally, I mean, and I don’t know if this is related to the ADHD or what, in retrospect, but, like, I can be standing in line at the supermarket and then, like, almost fall over? And it’s like –

[Laughter]

Alyssa: – I literally was just standing here. So basically I started doing this yoga called yin yoga because I saw someone mention it for anxiety, because it’s about learning – and related to the pole dancing again – learning to sit with discomfort, because you hold the, I mean –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – not, not that you are supposed to be hurting yourself. The poses are generally on the ground and working, like, your hips and your back.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: But also they, you hold the poses for a long time, for, like, five minutes, so it’s kind of like meditation. And I just do YouTube videos when I do it. It’s also good for, like, helping you fall asleep sometimes? But base –

Sarah: Oh, absolutely.

Alyssa: So, like, with the pole dancing and, like, with other things that I’m starting to do, part of it is like, yes, exercise, because whatever, you know, brain chemicals make you feel good, but the, you know, also, it doesn’t solve mental health problems – [laughs] – like, so it’s good to do that; it is something that helps. But I remember at one point I had been doing the yoga for a while, and then I got really mad because I was like, I’m doing, I’m exercising, I’m doing yoga, and, like, I’m not, like, cured of – [laughs] – of my mental health problems. But then I had to put into perspective of like, well, it’s not a cure; it’s just something that will help you to better deal with things, and if you do it consistently to help kind of maintain and also be able to, I guess, be proactive about certain things, but at the same time it’s not going to, like, be like, oh yeah, like, my brain is suddenly –

Sarah: Cured!

Alyssa: I still –

Sarah: Come on!

Alyssa: – I still have the same brain.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: But yeah, so a lot of the self-care that I’ve been doing has been about learning, first, as far as exercise and, you know, trying meditation and mindfulness, kind of learning to sit with things that make me uncomfortable, learning to –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – not expect to feel good all the time? Which –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – is somewhat like the opposite of self-care, but, like, sometimes I feel like you can feel bad and then you feel like, what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I just feel good? And it’s like, well, no, sometimes, like, that’s not normal either! Feeling good all the time generally is not how life works. So – [laughs] –

Sarah: No.

Alyssa: – so learning to sometimes be like, okay, I’m having a bad day, and that, it is what it is, and –

Sarah: Yep, and I’m not in control.

Alyssa: Yeah, and – yeah, that’s the thing. A lot of it is about trying to control things that you absolutely cannot control. [Laughs]

Sarah: No, you really can’t.

Alyssa: And the other thing is, when I think about deadlines and stuff, I’m generally a people pleaser to some extent, but I kind of just reached a point where I’m like, I’ll try to hit it – [laughs] – but –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alyssa: – and, and not even in an unprofessional way, but basically, like, I’m not going to kill myself for a book. I don’t want to –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – even almost kill myself for a book anymore.

Sarah: Yeah, I was going to say, I know you’ve talked about doing that, and you’re like, yeah, nope, not doing that anymore.

Alyssa: ‘Cause I mean, the burnout that I had in February was the worst one, but it was real-, very much not the only one. But I can, you know, have been really grinding for five years?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: Or more? So –

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: – at this point I, part of my self-care is learning how to think about the future, which is not something I really ever did?

Sarah: Wow!

Alyssa: It was, I very much was mostly just like – I don’t know how to describe it. I was just like, the future is some ra-, thing that may or may not happen. [Laughs] I’m just going to –

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: – focus on what I’m doing right now.

Sarah: What’s next right now? What’s next right now?

Alyssa: Exactly.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: But, and, but, and thinking, that’s something I’ve been thinking about, you know, for the last couple of years and really trying to focus on is that, like, I have to think about what will happen when I’m sixty, you know, if I make it to sixty.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: I have to think about what will happen if I, you know, make it to eighty. And even, like, not even that far in the future, but just, like, I need to think about my health. I can’t just keep grinding and then – because it was really scary when I was unable to write; that was the first time it happened.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: Like, I’ve had writer’s block, but it, it was not like writer’s block.

Sarah: This is different.

Alyssa: And I was just like, what if I’m not ever, like, I have to literally think about working myself so hard that I’m unable to do what I love.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: So when I ha-, when I start being like, oh, I need to hit this deadline and things are not working, I start to remind myself –

Sarah: Okay.

Alyssa: – that, like, well, you know – [laughs] – it will happen eventually! If it’s late, it’s late. Like, sorry, editors!

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: [Laughs] But, but, like, you know, I can’t, like, force it to happen. That doesn’t work –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – for me? The whole sit down and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – get your ass in the seat and write does not work for me.

Sarah: No. And, and thinking of yourself into the future is also a form of self-care. You’re looking after –

Alyssa: Yeah, exactly!

Sarah: – your future self. Like, okay, I, I, who I am has value now and in the future, and what I do has value now and in the future, and looking after my future self means treating my future self as someone who is important.

Alyssa: Exactly. And I recently – God, it was – a couple months ago I read a book that kind of really helped me put that more in perspective, or –

Sarah: Ooh, tell me all about it, ‘cause that’s my next question! Give me the books. Tell me all the books. Bring it, bring it.

Alyssa: Well, the book that – [laughs] – the book was Atomic Habits.

Sarah: Oh, I loved that book!

Alyssa: And, like, there were, there were, you know, I have really – and this is part of the thing about not thinking about the future, and also having ADHD, is not really being able to form habits, but it made me rethink, you know, what habits are?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: Because, like, of course there are things I do every day, but I didn’t think about those –

Sarah: Of course!

Alyssa: – as habits. It’s just, like, oh, the things I have to do every day. And, like, you know, the idea of habit stacking and, like, tying things you want to do to things that you’re already doing – but he talked about, like, goals versus systems –

Sarah: Yes.

Alyssa: – and the idea of having, like, you are generally always going to fail at a goal? So you have to –

Sarah: Yes.

Alyssa: – kind of think about the system, maintaining a system rather than achieving a goal? Because, for example, one thing that he mentioned was, like, okay, you start something, you know, taking a class every week: exercise, language, some, whatever, and then you miss one week, and then you’re like, oh man, I messed up! Well, it’s over now.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: Because if your goal was to take one class a week, then you have messed up your goal and you feel like you have failed. But if your goal is to become proficient at a language or proficient at whatever or to be the kind of person who generally takes a class once a week, then it’s fine if you miss it once, or it’s fine –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – if you miss it twice because life happened, but then you have to say, okay, my overall, the goal, if the goal had been to take a class every week, you would have not succeeded at the goal, but –

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: – you miss two weeks, and then you can say, okay, I missed two weeks, but my system is I’m the person who is going to be doing this every week when possible. Next week it’s possible again, so I’m going to do it again next week, instead of just being like, oh well, I tried and I failed.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: But also, the idea of the habits that you maintain now affecting Future You, even if you can’t, you don’t have immediate gratification in the moment, like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – you brush your teeth every day because you don’t want your teeth to fall out ten years from now.

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: So other things like that, you do something right now and think about how it will affect Future You. So as far as self-care, I’ve been trying to think of things of, like, trying to do more things that are not writing? Trying to get out of the house more. Trying to read more books, or fit in a bit of reading, even if I can’t read the whole book at one time. And also saying no to things.

Sarah: Oh, you don’t say!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Yeah!

Alyssa: You know, I did a few things this summer, conferences this summer, which was great –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: – but also tiring. Traveling from Martinique, now that there are no direct flights, really is pretty frustrating, and I was supposed to do the Aus-, the, the Texas Book Festival, which I did last year and I loved? But when I did it last year I flew there from a previous engagement; I flew there from LA, so getting from LA to Austin is fairly simple.

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: And also, they were still having the Norwegian Airlines flights last year? So then getting back to Martinique –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – was pretty simple: so from Austin to Florida and Florida to Martinique. Those flights have been canceled, and – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yep. And that makes it harder!

Alyssa: Yeah. So it’s like, you know, island hopping, airport hopping, trying to get to places. And then I looked – so I had said yes, and they made the announcement about the book festival, and I was excited, and then I looked, I started looking at flights? And it would have been like thirty hours, you know, with layovers and three flights or four flights and thirty hours and, like, in the past I would have said, well, it’s not that bad. I’ll just go, it’ll be a good weekend, and then I’ll come back and, like, sleep for a day and it will be fine. But in reality, when I actually tally the effects of things, the lead-up to going to that event, the stress of traveling, which, because I hate planes – well, actually, I love planes; I hate flying. I hate, I could sit on the plane all day with the door open, but that’s a whole other problem; I’m not going to get into that. But, like, so it’s very –

Sarah: Yep, I understand.

Alyssa: – it’s very stressful for me, and then, you know, multiple flights and then coming back, having the travel be longer than the time I’m there. That will affect me for much longer, and I need to be like, so I try to be more realistic, like it’s not going to take me a day or two to recover from that. It can have a –

Sarah: No.

Alyssa: – ripple effect that will then affect my mood, my ability to work –

Sarah: Yep.

Alyssa: – so I’ve been trying to factor that in.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: I had to, I had to pull out of the Texas Book Festival and, you know, felt really awful, but at the same time I was like, if I go, I’m really setting myself up for failure – [laughs] – and then I’ll be like –

Sarah: You’re the one who pays!

Alyssa: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: So I’m trying to, in the future, you know, before it gets to that point, really think about mental health, physical health, deadlines that are already super tight, and so I’m trying to, like, really, you know, focus on breaking down actual steps of things and, like – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: – being realistic and not just saying, well, yeah, I can do that. I can do a lot of things, but that doesn’t mean I should do them all the time!

Sarah: Yeah. And being able to do something doesn’t mean that you have to or that the answer should therefore be yes.

Alyssa: Yes.

Sarah: In addition to Atomic Habits, what books do you want to tell people about?

Alyssa: Do I have, like, a limit on how many? [Laughs] Because I was in a –

Sarah: You kidding?

Alyssa: – I was in a reading slump.

Sarah: No!

Alyssa: I was, I have been in a big reading slump. I recently broke that for a little while. White Whiskey Bargain by Jodie Slaughter –

Sarah: Yeah?

Alyssa: – which is a contemporary. It’s set, it’s a marriage of convenience between two rival moonshining families in the, in Kentucky –

Sarah: Oh!

Alyssa: – and the heroine is Black and American, and the hero is Mexican-American. Their families have been competitors, but someone else is moving in on their land, on, and moving in on their turf, someone who’s more powerful than both of them, so they join forces, and to make sure they don’t screw each other over they get married and then screw each other. [Laughs] And –

Sarah: This seems logical!

Alyssa: They’re, it’s really, you know, the writing is great; I love the story; and then there’s also sex on a car hood in the rain?

Sarah: Also good?

Alyssa: Another marriage of convenience that I read right after that was Xeni by Rebekah Weatherspoon, which I also loved, which is a woman, her aunt passes away and she goes to her aunt’s hometown for the funeral there and finds out that she is heir to a lot of money, but part of it is she has to marry a large, hot, Scottish bagpiper, who –

Sarah: As you do.

Alyssa: – who is her aunt’s friend. Again, it was a marriage of convenience where people are like, yeah, let’s, let’s – maybe we’re not going to fall in love, but let’s just, like –

Sarah: Make the best of it!

Alyssa: Yeah! I also have, like, a buttload of ARCs that – [laughs] – I was super excited to read. I started reading Love Lettering by Kate Clayborn. I am in the process of reading that but what I’ve read so far has been, like, so amazing, and, like, there’s also this really, for me, very intense handling of the way certain friendships can work out that is both very real and also something I haven’t really seen in a romance before?

Sarah: Yeah.

Alyssa: Which is when one person just doesn’t know why their friend changed and stopped talking to them?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: And, like, how you kind of just have to deal with that? I, I really love in general friendships in romance, but I –

Sarah: Yeah, me too.

Alyssa: – but I kind of love the kind of, the angst that I feel like doesn’t always get the attention it deserves in that, like, a friendship breakup can be much more difficult than a relationship breakup. Like, she’s living with her friend at the time. It’s this balance of, like, her friendship ending and this, this dude coming into her life and, like, them kind of bonding, and then it’s also, like, New York, if you, I also love books with New York as the setting, where New York seems really like another character. I really love it, and I’m also done with my project now, so I can read it.

Sarah: Yay!

Alyssa: But Ilona Andrews Hidden Legacy series, I really enjoyed that, and then I read Seressia Glass’s Shadowchasers? I also listened to that in audio. It’s urban fantasy romance with a woman who is an antiquities expert, who’s also part of this organization, deals with magic stuff. She has powers, and then she encounters this four-thousand-year-old Nubian warrior who – [laughs] – is extremely hot, and also she has something that belongs to him. He’s fulfilling this kind of goal that he’s almost finished completing, and they are fighting magical bad guys, set in Atlanta, and it’s just really so good and so engrossing, and as I was reading it I was just like, man, this would be so amazing as a TV show or, like, a movie. The worldbuilding feels really strong, and your, like, immersive? So I’m on book one of that; I think it’s a three-book series, and I think that there’s a novella coming out in November or something? But I don’t know the title of it, but the first book in the series is Shadow Blade.

Sarah: Right.

Alyssa: And then the last thing, I have an ARC of Farrah Rochon’s upcoming The Boyfriend Project? What I’ve read so far is so good, and it also has my favorite illustrated cover that I’ve seen. That’s my personal –

Sarah: It’s a gorgeous cover.

Alyssa: – my personal opinion. And I also have my own illustrated cover, so sorry to The A.I. Who Loved Me – [laughs] – but The Boyfriend Project is where it’s at for me. But also it has this, like, fantastic premise of the first chapter is this woman getting ready for a date with a guy who’s, like, kind of a loser, but she’s seeing where it goes, and then there’s, like, this Twitter drama of this woman live-tweeting her awful date, and her sister is reading it to her, and she realizes it’s her date who had –

Sarah: Ohhh.

Alyssa: – like, stood her up and told her he would meet up with her later? And so then she, like, decides to, like, go to the restaurant and confront him, and then when she gets there another woman shows up and confronts him? So then – [laughs] – they all, like, you know, play him out, and then the three of them, the series follows the three of them as they, like, go forward and find love after being kind of connected by this, like, this guy and this Twitter drama that happened, which is, like, such an amazing hook. What I’ve read so far is super funny, and I’m looking forward to reading the rest of it.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this episode. Thank you to Alyssa and to her rooster for hanging out with me and for having such a thoughtful and interesting conversation. Like I said in the intro, I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. This is one of my favorite episodes this year.

This episode was brought to you by The Rancher’s Redemption by Kate Pearce. New York Times bestselling author Kate Pearce returns with the second book in a new contemporary Western romance series, a spin-off of her successful Morgan Ranch series, focusing on a neighboring family with their own ranch and problems of the heart. Emphasizing family bonds, community, and the pride in hard work, this family saga is guaranteed to tug at the heartstrings as a widower and a single mother learn that sometimes it’s okay to lean on each other. The Rancher’s Redemption by Kate Pearce is now on sale wherever books are sold. For more information, visit kensingtonbooks.com.

Today’s podcast and the transcript are sponsored by Where Winter Finds You by J. R. Ward. Number one New York Times bestselling author J. R. Ward is heating things up this winter with a holiday novel featuring some of her most iconic Black Dagger brothers. Fans of the series will remember Trez and the heartbreak he suffered from The Shadows. He believed there was nothing left for him but grief, until a mysterious woman shows up in Caldwell and Trez is convinced she’s the reincarnation of his lost love. Therese has come to Caldwell fleeing demons of her own, but her attraction to Trez is undeniable. Can these two lost souls find healing and happiness at last? Well, ‘tis the season for magic. Where Winter Finds You by J. R. Ward is on sale now wherever books are sold. Find out more at jrward.com.

Coming up on Smart Bitches this week, it is the start of December – I don’t know how that happened – and of course on the first of the month we have Hide Your Wallet, where we talk about all the new books we’re excited about. Plus, we have reviews of new romances, a new Gift Guide all about spoiling your pets and your furry friends, plus Help a Bitch Out, a new Rec League, and of course Books on Sale every day so you can stock up with more to read this holiday season.

I will have links to where you can find Alyssa Cole online, and I will have links to some of the things she talked about, including some YouTube videos of yin yoga if you’re curious about that like I am, and I will have links to all of the books we talked about, so do not worry.

And as always, I end with a terrible joke. Are you ready? This joke comes from Kheya, who is fabulous and sent me not only this joke but extra brownie points by email, which completely made my week. Thank you, Kheya! So this joke’s from Kheya and it’s amazing, so get ready. You can entertain everyone in your family with this one.

Why can’t you use beef stew as a password?

Give up? Why can’t you use beef stew as a password?

It’s not stroganoff.

[Laughs] Stew. Stroganoff! It’s not stroganoff! [Laughs more] Course now I want to use, like B33fst3wxq# as a password. I’m not actually going to do that; don’t do that. Thank you, Kheya!

On behalf of everyone here, thank you for listening this week. We will be back next week with another episode. In the meantime, we wish you the very best of reading.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to listen to at frolic.media/podcasts.

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