202. New Books and Old Friends: An Interview with Lisa Kleypas

[music]

Sarah Wendell:  Hello, and welcome to episode number 202 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books.  I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and with me today is Lisa Kleypas.  Yes, it’s another interview where I barely keep my crap together because I’m so excited!  I’m going to chat with Lisa about her upcoming historical, Marrying Winterborne, and about the somewhat ecstatic fan response, which I was totally a part of, to the announcement of her upcoming book, Devil in Spring.  Now, this episode was recorded shortly after her announcement, and we talk a little bit about how, what that did for her and her writing process.  We also talk about writing in the Industrial era amid the inventions and social changes, and we talk about writing books that stand up to the three-in-the-morning test among readers.  I also have some questions from Patreon supporters as well, who got a chance to send me some questions before I did the interview.

This podcast is sponsored by romance reader and fantasy author Angela Korra’ti.  If you like your urban fantasy with music, magic, and computer geekery, then explore Faerie Blood, book one of the Free Court of Seattle series, available in print and digitally wherever eBooks are sold.  In honor of this podcast, book one and two of the series will be on sale for 99 cents each until July 15, 2016.  So if it’s not July 15, 2016, you can get both of the books for 99 cents.  Kendis Thompson of Seattle thinks she’s as normal as the next computer geek, and up ‘til now she’s been right.  But her world is about to turn on its ear, because she is the daughter of a Seelie Court mage and her mortal husband, and her faerie blood is awakening.  Suddenly the city she’s known all her life is transforming before her eyes.  Trolls haunt the bike trails.  Fairies and goblins run loose in the streets.  An old woman who is not what she seems and a young wanderer running from his past stand ready to defend Seattle, and Kendis, from magical assault.  She will need those allies, for the power rising within her is calling her fey kin to the Emerald City to find her.  And kill her.  You can find this book wherever eBooks are sold, and print as well, and you can find Angela at AngelaHighland.com or on Twitter @annathepiper.

Author and podcast fan Kelly Maher is sponsoring the podcast transcript and celebrating her latest birthday, but she’s giving the gift to you.  You guys get all the presents in this episode!  How rad is that?  Her Sweet Heat collection of backlist titles is available for half price at all outlets through the end of July 2016, and her short story “Blizzard Bliss” is available for free through the link in the podcast entry.  Volume 2 of Sweet Heat contains the novel End Balance and a short story, “Spring Storm.”  In End Balance, CEOs of rival companies must deal with corporate espionage and the one-night stand they had months earlier.  That always works out when you try to avoid talking about your one-night stand in romance.  Like, that’s always effective.  Volume 3 contains three paranormal novellas, including Tera’s Awakening, in which an idealistic woman in a dystopian future discovers the industrialist she has gone to confront has a much longer personal history than she would have ever expected.  Each collection is on sale for $1.99, and you can find links to all three volumes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

The music you’re listening to is from Crime and the Forces of Evil, and I’ll have information at the end of the podcast as to who this is.

And of course I will have links to all of the books and movies and things we discuss in this episode, but now, without any further delay, on with the podcast!

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Sarah:  I have so many questions for you, and the podcast has something called a Patreon, which is sort of like Kickstarter, except that instead of just funding one project, with Patreon people can become, like, patrons of something, like a show or an artist or a graphic novel, so people can pledge $1 or $3 a month or $5 a month and support the podcast, which helps me, you know, with better editing and better equipment and doing transcripts and stuff.  So, the people who have supported the podcast and become patrons, I asked them this week, you guys, I’m going to interview Lisa Kleypas.  I’m trying to keep myself cool.  What would you like to me to ask?  And people just flooded the comments and were like, oh, my God!  I’m so excited for you!  Oh, my gosh, this is so great!

Lisa Kleypas:  Ohhh!

Sarah:  So I have questions from readers, I have questions from other people –

Lisa:  Oh, that’s so great.

Sarah:  There are, so many people are so excited that you are –

Lisa:  Oh!

Sarah:  – just, just that you do what you do makes people so happy.

Lisa:  I, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate that, ‘cause I, I love what I do, and you know, you know, you know from working, you know, in a solitary environment sometimes that, you know, you, you feel like you’re just in there and that nobody really knows what you’re doing, and – so sometimes I’ll take, you know, an extra half hour to research, you know, what kind of socks somebody would have worn back then, and, and the fact that the readers appreciate that I’m doing that means a lot.  You know, so, I mean, their, their feedback really keeps me going.

Sarah:  Isn’t it lovely just to have somebody say what you did just made my day better?  It’s just the best feeling.

Lisa:  Well, yes!  Yes!  I mean, the, romance readers are so fantastic in telling you what you did right, you know.  And of course, obviously, they tell you what you did wrong, too, and that helps!  You know, but, but the fact that they’re so eager to tell you what they liked is, is tremendously helpful because, you know, I’m, I’m one of those writers, yes, I do write to please myself, ‘cause I enjoy it, but, but absolutely I write to please readers, you know.  That’s what I’m doing.

Sarah:  So when you did your Facebook post announcing the special epilogue, which had been excised from my book – I got it the day before I left RT, and I was like, Jessie, you have got to be kidding me that you cut the epilogue out with a razor.

Lisa:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  She’s like, oh, yeah, used my box cutter and everything.  So, were you prepared for the squee and joy and absolute online dance party when you announced that the next book features previous characters?

Lisa:  No.  Sarah, I could not believe it!

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Lisa:  I was so thrilled!  I just nearly passed out when I realized what the response was because, you know, I, I know why that book, you know, was fun for me to write and what it meant to me personally, but, you know, that, to get such an emotional response from readers, it just made me so joyful, and it, and it gave me a, a few minutes of the humbles.  You know, where I’m just like, wow.  But I got over that.

[Laughter]

Sarah:  I, I have to say, you, you posted it, Avon tweeted it, and then, like, three-quarters of my tweet stream which are romance people were basically just losing their ever-loving minds for, like, three straight hours, and then as it hit different time zones and people were waking up, what, what’s going on?  OH MY GOSH!

Lisa:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  It was so wonderful that – I mean, I know that it’s a, it’s a book announcement, and it’s, you know, it’s, it’s something that you’ve been working on, but there was so much joy in the reaction, it was just delightful.  So, thank you –

Lisa:  I loved it!

Sarah:  – thank you for that!

Lisa:  Well, thank you!  You know, and it’s, that, that book, you know, you, you do a couple of books in your career where it’s really sort of a touchstone or something that – where everything that you can do well really comes together, I think, and so the first book for me like that was Dreaming of You, and then, and I thought, well, you know, you’re lucky if that happens once, but the fact that it happened again with Devil in Winter was just, you know, incredible, so when I decided to, to go ahead and do this, and I just – before I really committed personally to, to  writing Devil in Spring and having it be their son, I thought, you know, I have to, to make sure that I can do this, so I was writing this prologue where Sebastian and Evie are just talking and, and, you know, flirting, and it was the most amazing thing.  As soon as I started writing their dialogue it was like there was some place in my brain where they exist, and it just tapped into that, and it was natural and easy, and I thought, okay!  Yeah, I, I can do it.  Absolutely, I can do it.

Sarah:  And it was familiar.

Lisa:  Yes!  Yes!

Sarah:  It was like revisiting old friends.

Lisa:  Exactly!  And, and I have tried to do that, where I’ll have characters visit, you know, from one past book in, into another one, and sometimes it takes a lot more work, because at the time that you’re writing a book, you’re just in a certain place personally and emotionally, and the characters just, you know, take on their own life, but then you try to get that back later, and it’s just, it’s, it’s like trying an old recipe that you knew used to taste a certain way, and then you do it and you’re like, you know, it’s not the same as I remember.

Sarah:  I remember this as much more different than it actually tastes right now.

Lisa:  [Laughs] Yes.

Sarah:  So –

Lisa:  Exactly.

Sarah:  – it was fun for you to visit Evie and Sebastian.

Lisa:  Oh, oh, incredibly fun.  And, you know, I, I loved the idea of showing them middle-aged, you know, thirty years after they had married and to, to imagine what changes they would have gone through but the things that would have stayed the same, and –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Lisa:  – it, you know, it helps personally, because I’ve been married, oh, like, twenty-two years, and, and, you know, my husband and I have, have a typical marriage with, you know, ups and downs and, and good things and things we need to work on, but we’ve always been really flirtatious with each other and really, like, complimenting each other, and so, you know, I, I felt like that definitely would be the case with, with Evie and Sebastian and –

Sarah:  Oh, yes.

Lisa:  – you know, that made it fun.  Yeah.

Sarah:  And also, he, he has a habit of making fun of his more rake-tacular past.

Lisa:  Yes!  [Laughs] Yeah, yeah.  Yes.

Sarah:  Like, he fully owns that he was up to no good.

Lisa:  Yeah!  Yeah!  Exactly, and, and I think the, the self-mocking quality, you know, is, is one of the things that probably makes him more popular, is, is a, you know, he never takes himself seriously, and you get, you get tired of these guys who always, you know, have this, this attitude, and they’re, you know, they, they always have to be on top and be dominating and be the winner, and when, when you’ve got someone who’s almost more of a, I don’t know, like, a, an Oscar Wilde type, where they’re always sort of making fun of themselves too.  You know what I mean, that, that sort of irreverent quality, you know, that it’s, it make them more appealing, as far as I’m concerned.

Sarah:  I, I think not taking yourself seriously is super hot.

Lisa:  Yeah.  Oh, I do too!  I do too.

[Laughter]

Lisa:  Absolutely, absolutely, so, yeah!  So I, I’m in the middle of writing Devil in Spring right now.  I’m having a fabulous time because the heroine, Pandora, is, she’s got ADHD, so, you know, which, which I certainly have more than my fair share of, so it’s really fun to, to kind of show how you would try to control yourself and your impulsiveness and your creativity, you know, when it’s, when it would be frowned on, and she’s so out of place, and Gabriel, the, the son, is so, you know, so in command of himself and so confident that it’s –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Lisa:  – it’s really a fun pairing because there’s a lot of chemistry.  Yeah.

Sarah:  Oh, yay!  So what are some of the things that you’re really enjoying about this new series?  I know that, I know that you’re – [laughs] – having a really good time with some of the setting elements.

Lisa:  [Laughs] Yes!

Sarah:  What are some of the things you’re really liking about it?

Lisa:  Well, the, the, I’m, I’m deeper into the Industrial era than ever before, and so the, the gadgets and the inventions and the whole attitude of the time period, like, every-, back then everybody was just so confident that they could just conquer the world and, you know, things would be invented, and so it, it just makes the characters really bold and, you know, they’re, they’re taking on the world and, and, and as a family, this Ravenel family are just – I, I love doing this.  They’re, they’re just a bunch of misfits that come together to form a family, you know, because I, ‘cause I, I really believe, you know, in, in real life as well, that your family are the people that you choose, that, that you like.  You know, your friends are your family, the –

Sarah:  Oh, yes.

Lisa:  – the people that, that mean a lot to you, and so it’s not just blood relations.  So here you’ve got this really misfit family of oddballs, and I, and I very deliberately wanted to play around with a mixture of aristocrats and industrialists and self-made people, so it’s just, like, a very vibrant grab-bag mix, and, and that makes things interesting so it’s, it’s not everyone just sitting around or, or standing in a ballroom talking.

Sarah:  Oh, yes.  And, and found family is such a powerful concept, and as you, as you said, it exists now that you, you know, you build a family around you of the people who care about you and also people who like the same things you do.  I mean, romance readers form a lot of found families –

Lisa:  Yes.

Sarah:  – when they connect with one another.

Lisa:  Oh, yes, yes!  And, and it’s, it’s so fun when you actually, you know, meet other romance readers who you, you have this instant connection or bond with because, you know, have you read this book?  Yes, I have.  Oh, I love that too, and it’s like you have this vocabulary that –

Sarah:  Yes!

Lisa:  – that you all share, and I love that.

Sarah:  Absolutely!  And you have this, this shared history of having read the same books.

Lisa:  Yes, yes.

Sarah:  Even if you, even, even if you didn’t know them, because you’ve had that same experience of visiting those two characters and loving those characters –

Lisa:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – that’s an incredibly powerful connection that I think a lot of people misunderstand and, and don’t quite get how important it is.

Lisa:  Oh, I know!  It’s like, it’s like you know the same people!  You know?

Sarah:  Yes!  It’s exactly like that!

Lisa:  Yeah!  And it’s funny, like, I, I had this incredible honor of getting to write the foreword for this thirty-fifth reissue, yeah, thirty-fifth anni-, anniversary edition of Shanna by Kathleen Woodiwiss, which is coming out in –

Sarah:  I saw that!  Also, your –

Lisa:  Yeah!

Sarah:  – introduction was terrific.

Lisa:  Oh, thank you, thank – oh!  It, it was not easy for, for several reasons.

Sarah:  No!  I was going to say –

Lisa:  But –

Sarah:  – I didn’t, I was looking at that like, all right, how’s Lisa going to do this, ‘cause this book has some problematic elements up in here.

Lisa:  [Laughs] I know!  I. Know!  I know, and –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Lisa:  – so, like, of, of course, when, when Karen, my editor, asked me if wanted to, without even thinking I said, yesyesyesyesyes, because, you know, Kathleen Woodiwiss started it all.  I mean, she founded the genre, and so I said yes, and then, you now, I went back and read Shanna, and, and even before I read it I thought, yep, yep, there’s going to be some bodice ripping and some questionable things, and I remember the heroine had some, some personality things that I didn’t necessarily like, but, but when you read it in context, which is kind of, I, I think what I said in the, in the foreword, yeah, then you can appreciate it for what it is, and, my God, it’s a big, magnificent, detailed, you know –

Sarah:  Sweeping, enormous book –

Lisa:  – experience.

Sarah:  – yes.

Lisa:  It is!  It’s, it’s an experience.  So, the, you know, it, that, it was actually kind of fun to see what used to be allowed in, in romance and, and how bloody long the book used to be.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Lisa:  You know – [laughs] – I –

Sarah:  And how small the text is.

Lisa:  I know!  I know!  It’s, it’s, it’s so hard now, because I love the history that I can put in there, and I, and I love little interactions between minor characters, and I, I love these, these juicy details, and I would love to just let go and, and make it a six-hundred-page book, which they used to be able to do, but, but –

Sarah:  Oh, yeah!

Lisa:  – you know, now, you, you really just can’t!  I mean it’s, nobody has time for that, and nobody really wants to wade through all that stuff.  You know, it’s, it’s like going to a dessert buffet and having eighteen desserts, which I personally love, but you, you just –

Sarah:  You can’t eat all teen, all eighteen.

Lisa:  Yeah, exactly!  It’s – well, I’ve tried, but, you know.

[Laughter]

Sarah:  I have to say, I can imagine someone listening to this conversation who’s going, nope, nope, no, I would totally read six hundred pages.  You just go ahead.  Go ahead!  Just, just go, go do that.  Go do that now.

Lisa:  I know!  I, and you know, there, you know, there are always kind of trends or things that you hear –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Lisa:  – and so the last few years, I, I’ve really heard, because of eBooks, everything has to be fast, fast, fast.  Keep the books short, you know, really just pare it down, and to me, you know, you’re, you’re writing historical and it’s like, well, if it has to be that pared down and you can’t put any detail about what someone is eating or what someone is wearing, you know, why the hell are you writing historical?  I mean –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Lisa:  – you know?  I’d just write a contemporary and, and you know, be, you know, succinct, so, so I’m like, no, I’m going to put some of that in there, and, and thank God, readers have really responded and said that’s great and, and they enjoy that.

Sarah:  What’s funny is you just touched on my next three questions, so this is perfect.  Thank you!

Lisa:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Making my job super easy!  I can stop breathing into a paper bag and being nervous.  Okay.  So, do you miss writing contemporaries?  Do you ever take a break and you’re like, all right, present day, I need somebody in jeans to talk to me in my brain.  Like, do you ever miss the contemporaries at all?

Lisa:  Sometimes, some- – it’s, it’s such a different, different art to me, because when I wrote the contemporaries, especially the, the Texas contemporaries that I did, the, you know, the conflict obviously can’t be as external as a historical because, you know, we don’t have wonderful kidnappings and forced marriages and, and things that are so easy plot-wise, you know, that, to have fun with, so the conflict has to be much more internal, much more psychological, and not only does that take a lot of thinking and considering and pondering, but, but it takes a lot from me emotionally.  You know, I –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Lisa:  – and so I have to really invest in the story and, and the characters in a way that’s just really exhausting, so especially with the, there were a couple of those Texas books where afterward I just felt so incredibly drained and like I had just been through this, this big experience, and it, it was satisfying, but it’s different.  If, if I would write, you know, more light, more fun contemporaries, I wouldn’t have to wade through all that, but, but to me it, that just seems naturally what I’m drawn to in a contemporary is, is a lot of that, that emotional, psychological stuff.

Sarah:  Well, that’s also present in your historicals too.  The characters who you write have a lot of internal and external stuff to get through.

Lisa:  Yes.

Sarah:  It’s a good balance of internal and external conflict for both genres, I think, because you, you –

Lisa:  Oh!  Thank you.

Sarah:  – the more you, characters that have problems or, or habits or ways of seeing the world that need to be undermined and shaken up and dismantled, the more powerful it is to read about them, and you could keep going with the effects of that experience with, you know, more and more chapters.  It’s, it’s very difficult, I think, to sustain for ninety thousand words an internal conflict of – and this is why this is not my favorite trope – my ex-girlfriend broke my heart –

Lisa:  Oh!

Sarah:  – so I’m swearing off all women forever –

Lisa:  Yes.

Sarah:  – except my mom and my sister –

Lisa:  Yes.

Sarah:  – who no one is allowed to date.  And I’m just like, dude!  I’m so out of here!  I am nope-ing right out.  Nope, nope, nope, bye!

Lisa:  [Laughs] It’s true!  And, and you know, when you, when you try as a writer to sustain something with, with that kind of incredibly light, easily solved conflict, it’s, it’s really draining!  It’s tiring to –

Sarah:  Yes!  [Laughs]

Lisa:  – to try to keep it going, and you’re like, okay, what can I make happen to try to make things more interesting now?  So –

Sarah:  Yep.

Lisa:  – so no, it’s, it’s, it’s definitely more fun, I think, with a lot of baggage, and, and really it, when I read or when I write a story with a lot of baggage and a lot of conflict like that, it’s, it’s very satisfying, you know, like, it’s just this really good feeling, like, like you’ve solved something in yourself.

Sarah:  Oh, totally.

Lisa:  You know, when I do a contemporary again, because I do plan to in the future, I do have to make sure that I have something that I really want to say, you know, like I –

Sarah:  Oh, yes.

Lisa:  Oh, yeah.  I want some issue or, or psychological thing that, that would be really satisfying personally to, to work through, and so I, I just never want to push that, and I’m, I’m going to certainly finish this historical series and then take a look at, you know, what I might like to do, what would be satisfying, but I’m, I’m learning, you know, really, I have, I have to trust my gut, and if it, if it doesn’t –

Sarah:  Oh, yes.

Lisa:  – feel like writing a contemporary, then I, I’m not going to push it, you know?

Sarah:  It’s funny; that’s one of the questions I have from Kati, who is a podcast patron.  She said, could you ask whether she’s writing any more contemporaries or if she’s sticking with historical?  And then she wrote, I realize this is ironic in that when she published contemporaries everyone wanted her to write historicals and vice versa –

Lisa:  Yes!  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – but I still want to know.  That questions made me laugh so hard, ‘cause I’m sure you hear that a lot.  What, are you going to write this?  But you’re writing that!  You going to write this now?  [Laughs]

Lisa:  Exactly!  Well, yeah, and my, my, my thanks to Kati for asking because, you know, I, I like it that I, I hopefully did a good enough job that somebody’s interested in me going back and taking another stab at it, so, so the answer is, I’m sure that I will.  I’m sure that I will at, at some point, but only when I’m sure that I can do a good job at it, you know?

Sarah:  I do have a question from Rebecca that is related, and I want to just say that if this is a, if this is a thing that your gut is considering, we’re both going to vote for this?

Lisa:  Okay.

Sarah:  Have you considered writing a paranormal or any other genre you haven’t published in yet?

Lisa:  You know –

Sarah:  Epic, epic Kleypas fantasy?  I’m here for that.

Lisa:  I –

Sarah:  I’m totally here.  [Laughs]

Lisa:  Sarah, I have, I wi-, like, okay.  I love paranormal so, so much.  I love, like, Kresley Cole, goddess, goddess, goddess.  Just love her stuff.  I mean, so many of them – but, but I’m not sure that I can do that well, and I don’t understand how I can love someone’s work that much, you know, and, and, and love that type of genre so much and yet not really have a knack for it, because if you love something you should, you know, theoretically, you know – but, but, no, I’m not sure that I’m really good at that, so I, I’m, it’s probably doubtful that, that I’ll write it.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Lisa:  Also, like, I, you know, I still have vampire fantasies, okay, so I mean I –

Sarah:  Of course!

Lisa:  – I’m still not tired of vampires, you know.  Give me a good vampire, and that’s just, that is a great, that, that pushes some buttons right there, you know.

Sarah:  So, so here’s a thought for you to just sort of squirrel away in the back, in the, in the, what I call the Crock-Pot in the back of my mind that simmers all the ideas.

Lisa:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Just toss this in the mental Crock-Pot:  so if you have a vampire –

Lisa:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – and you know the vampirism in your world comes with immortality, then you could write both a historical and a contemporary, because he’s going to be alive from the Regency all the way up ‘til now –

Lisa:  Oh, my God!  That is badass.

Sarah:  – and, and you could write a six-hundred-page book:  everyone’s happy.

Lisa:  That is badass.  That is a good, good idea.  Oh, my –

Sarah:  Send me all of your editors.  [Laughs]

Lisa:  Has, has anyone done that?  They should – well, no, no, because the heroine can’t live – so would he go through several heroines, or would he –

Sarah:  Or he would live a life of cravats and, and desolation –

Lisa:  Yes!  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – until he found a woman that he loved so much, but he couldn’t turn her because that would be horrible!  And –

Lisa:  Oh, my God.

Sarah:  – internal conflict.  Somewhere there is an editor at Avon with their head between their knees right now going, oh, God, no, please don’t do this to me.

[Laughter]

Lisa:  See, that sounds so wonderful –

Sarah:  I would read that!

Lisa:  The, the thing that I’ve always loved a-, about, you know, the romance genre is, is the kind of hero where – [sighs] okay, I’m trying to word this the right way; okay – like, I like some politically incorrect in a hero because it’s just so thrilling and fun and sexy when, you know, they’re kind of, you know “being a man” –

Sarah:  I’m not supposed to say this to you.

Lisa:  Yeah?

Sarah:  Yes.  That was, that was the, that was the line in Smooth Talking Stranger that I love, where he’s mentally flipping through all the things he wants to say, and he can’t say them ‘cause they’re all terrible and filthy.

Lisa:  [Laughs] Yes, yes, yes!  Exactly!  And yet they’re how he feels, you know?

Sarah:  Yes.

Lisa:  Because if, if you’re a guy and you have a certain amount of testosterone you’re, you know, yeah, you’re going to feel a little bit caveman-like every now and then.  So, so the, the really great romances are the ones in which the hero just cannot help himself, and, and you, you actually give him a good reason.  Like, he can’t just be alpha asshole and get away with it unless, you know, I’m a vampire.  I have to suck your neck because, you know, it’s just who I am; I can’t help it.  Or, you know, I have to open the door and be a little bit alpha because I’m from Texas and therefore I can’t help it.  Or I, I live in the 1800s, so –

Sarah:  Yep.

Lisa:  – that gives them the excuse.  So it’s only when it’s not justified that, that a hero’s an alpha jerk and, and he doesn’t have the excuse that it’s, it’s really a turn-off, you know.

Sarah:  And it, and it’s not built into his character in any logical way.

Lisa:  No.

Sarah:  It’s like, it’s like a really bad-fitting coat that he’s wearing, and it’s like, dude, that’s not you.

Lisa:  Exactly!  Exactly.  So, yeah, so it’s, it’s, it is a difficult art to write a hero who is strong, tough, manly, and yet at the same time is a nice guy, and that, you know, I think I’ve, I’ve managed to get a decent balance a lot of the time, but you know –

Sarah:  Yes.

Lisa:  Well, thank you, thank you.  But, but I, you know, not, not all the time.  It’s, the thing is, I’d rather err on the side of manly or alpha than have a wimp.  You know, I can’t stand a wimpy hero, so –

Sarah:  Oh, I totally – well, I can’t stand wimpy characters.  It’s like, you, you have, you have three-hundred-plus pages of opportunity for self-actualization and sex.  Let’s go!  Come on!

Lisa:  [Laughs] Exactly!

Sarah:  It’s why I’m here!  [Laughs]

Lisa:  Exactly!  Exactly!  And so, so there was a, a scene in Cold-Hearted Rake where, you know, I got, I was actually surprised by some of the responses I got where, you know, some readers were, were fine with it because he, he is, the, okay, it’s, it’s, they’re in a carriage house, and he kind of is playing with her, and basically they end up inside this stationary carriage, and there’s, there’s some stuff going on.  He was, I, I believed that in that scene I made it absolutely clear that they both knew they were playing and that it would stop any time she, she wanted it to, and in fact, I think he even did the typical, you know, if you want me to stop at any time I will, and, and yet there were some readers who felt like it was just crossing the line, like he was too forceful or, you know, whatever, and, and I was surprised by that, and I, I wondered if maybe the limit for that is going down, you know, in, in readers’ minds, or else maybe I just didn’t handle that scene the right way.  You know, but it’s just an example of how tough it is to, to get the –

Sarah:  Oh, it’s very, it’s very difficult.  Especially because one of the – [sighs] – I don’t want to say vestiges or – it, it’s one of the things that is a very early hallmark of the books that we were talking about earlier, like Shanna and a lot of the Kathleen Woodiwiss and Rosemary Rogers books was that the heroine could not always be an active participant in her own sex life.

Lisa:  Yes.

Sarah:  It wasn’t permitted in, in the scope of when the book was published.  It wasn’t, and it wasn’t something that was encouraged among readers?  You know –

Lisa:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – female sexual agency was not something that happened a lot?

Lisa:  Yeah.

Sarah:  And so there’s, there’re, like, remnants of that, and almost remnants of that expectation, even though, like you say, the, the consent is becoming more and more prominent and important, and I think it’s, it’s almost as hard for, in some scenes, when you have, like, playacting or role playing or, you know, a great deal of emotion, it’s almost like, in a contemporary, trying to work in the condom scene where it’s not awkward but it’s clear that there’s a condom in use?

Lisa:  Yeah.  Uh-huh.  That’s, that’s a toughie.  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  Exactly!  It’s, it can be very difficult to incorporate all the elements in the right order that it doesn’t look like, that it doesn’t interrupt the emotion of the scene that’s actually happening.  But at the same time, all those things are important!  Like, I totally notice, like, did no one use a condom?

Lisa:  [Laughs] Well, yeah!  Yeah, and, and, like, what – especially in a contemporary context, you know – what self-respecting woman or self-concerned woman, you know, wouldn’t think about, you know, disease, pregnancy, whatever.

Sarah:  Oh, yeah.  And just as he’s, just as he’s about to, let’s say, ring the doorbell is not the time to say, oh, I’m totally clean!  Yeah, me too!  Let’s do this!  Like –

Lisa:  [Laughs] I know!

Sarah:  – no!  just, just no!  [Laughs]

Lisa:  I know!  I know.  It’s a tough one.  I’m even, you know, wrestling with it a little bit in, in the historical context where they didn’t think much about it back then, but, you know, especially when you’re dealing with a rake who has been around, and you’ve, you know, ugh, all sorts of stuff, you know, disease-wise and everything was happening back then.

Sarah:  Oh, yes.

Lisa:  You know, so it’s, it’s just one of those things, it’s hard to ignore once, once you’re aware of it.

Sarah:  It’s true.

Lisa:  But, yeah.  But I’d, I haven’t even really thoroughly researched what condoms were like back then, but I –

Sarah:  Ugh!

Lisa:  – I guarantee you they were bad, you know.

Sarah:  I, I don’t know if anyone wants to read that.  [Laughs] Bleah.

Lisa:  [Laughs] Yeah, I know!  I know, exactly!  Yeah, probably not something I’ll go into a lot of detail about, but yeah.

Sarah:  So what are some of the things that you’ve really enjoyed about returning to the historical genre?  I mean, I know you have the, the, the deep dive into history and all of the little, tiny, intimate details that can help build that world, and because you’re writing during, you know, a period of enormous industrial development, there’re more details that you can include that aren’t the, the expected, you know, checklist of things that happened in the Regency.  You, you have –

Lisa:  Yeah!

Sarah:  – all this new world to play in.  What are some of the things that you really enjoyed about having returned to historical?

Lisa:  Oh, I, you know, there, there is just some, there is something about, I, I don’t know why it’s my natural voice, but my, my, my natural, my comfortable writing voice really seems to be historical.  I, I love the dialogue, absolutely love it.  I love the, the archaic words, and I, I love the idea that people really tried to phrase themselves artfully, you know, and they really tried to express themselves in a beautiful way, so, you know, that’s lost in, in a contemporary context because we’re all very efficient when, when we speak, you know –

Sarah:  Yeah.

Lisa:   – by comparison, and so everything is shorthand and everything is kind of choppy and, and fast, whereas back then, you know, people had time to, to sit and listen to someone else really trying to articulate what, what they felt or what they thought.  That, that whole sense of people interacting and, and having time and sitting in the parlor and having these long conversations, it makes their relationships different than, than we have in, in a contemporary context, and, you know, I, I, I really enjoy that.  I really enjoy the fact that you can have these women’s relationships, you know, as, as friends and sisters and stuff where, you know, they really sit and pay attention to each other.  You know, it makes that, it makes very deep relationships.

Sarah:  And I’ve noticed when I’m, when I’m, you know, visiting people and, one of the things that’s really odd and interesting is that we moved into an area where we already have a lot of people that we know, so we sort of moved into a circle of friends that we already had, and so, you know, we’d only been here a month and we had, you know, I had a brunch date, we’re going to trivia, we have people over.  Like, it’s weird.  Like, we didn’t have to do that whole awkward meeting thing, ‘cause we knew a bunch of people.

Lisa:  That’s nice.

Sarah:  And I noticed that I am much more comfortable when I have something to do with my hands while I’m talking to someone, so –

Lisa:  Oh, yes!  Yeah.

Sarah:  If I’m cross-stitching or I’m doodling on something, I remember the conversation better, because it’s like the sort of, you know, the Jack Russell Terrier part of my brain is being soothed –

Lisa:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – and I can listen better, and so I, I’ve had these wonderful conversations while I’m cross-stitching because you, you, you’re listening better when you’re occupied in some way, and I think of all these women sitting in parlors and stitching and embroidering –

Lisa:  Yes!

Sarah:  – and, and embroidering, all of these things that they would do at that time, and I’m like, you guys are totally onto something!

Lisa:  Oh, I think so too!  Yes, because there was always so much sewing to be done, and –

Sarah:  Oh, yes.

Lisa:  – so I, I just, I, I actually love needlepointing, but as far as actual sewing, I’m just, you know, I, I learned when I was younger, and I’m just not that good at it.  I, I think there’s a certain amount of precision that I’m just not capable of, and, but, but, yeah, sewing was a big thing, and, you know, I love it that everybody, you know, was trying to sketch and, and learn languages, but, but another thing that I’m enjoying about historical is just that you can believably have a heroine who is so innocent, and everything is so new to her that it, the love scenes are so fun.  It is really fun, because, you know, what’s happening to me?  What is this?  You know, hopefully not in a stupid way but, you know, in, in a way where it’s just fresh and fun, because they didn’t know everything, you know?

Sarah:  In a lot of ways, when you embark in a, in a newer historical period, you’re inviting the reader to be the character who does not know anything of what’s happening or knows a little bit –

Lisa:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – but gets to see how it all happens.  Like, I remember – okay, I’m really bad with titles, and I want to say this was one of the Wallflower books, but I don’t remember which one – I remember there was just a throwaway conversation about how, if all of the servants are washing all the time, how will I know which women are of which class?

Lisa:  Oh, yes, yes!  I, I, I think that was Scandal in Spring, and, because it was about, yeah, it was about the mass production of soap, and that –

Sarah:  Yes!

Lisa:  Yeah, yeah, ‘cause their father was a soap manufacturer, and, and, yeah.  That, it, it was a, it was a real concern at the time.  If, if there are going to be ready-made dresses where lower class women and upper class women all start looking more alike, and if everyone is washing with soap, how do you know who’s appropriate for me to talk to?  Or, or who to be with, and it, it’s just ridiculous!  But there, there, you know, the class differences were so, they were so conscious of them at the time, you know.

Sarah:  And I remember reading that and thinking, oh, my God, seriously?  And then of course my, the rest of my brain catches up:  well, yes, of course seriously.  That would have been a legitimate conversation and a logical thing to, to talk about.  Even though the person who’s asking has revealed themselves to be a bit of a dick, you –

[Laughter]

Sarah:  – say, well, that was really telling:  you’re kind of awful, aren’t you?  Good to know.

Lisa:  Exactly!  Exactly!

Sarah:  Thank you for that warning.

Lisa:  Yeah, the, the, the legal status of women, too, is, is something that I’m just so fascinated with, and you know, I went to Wellesley, I, I’m a feminist, and I, you know, and I, and I like to say it.  I think feminism’s gotten a bad rap where people think it means you’re burning your bra, which, trust me, I would never do.  But –

Sarah:  [Laughs] They’re expensive!

Lisa:  I need it.  I mean –

Sarah:  I’m not burning my bras!  They are, like, eighty-five dollars apiece!

Lisa:  Yes!  [Laughs]

Sarah:  There’s no burning, but I’m still a feminist, no question!

Lisa:  Exactly!  Exactly!  But when you realize that really not long ago, that when a woman married, she ceased to be a legal entity and could not sign a contract, could not hire anyone.  If, if you were a single woman and you had what they called femme sole status then, then, yeah, you, you could have a company, you could have a bank account, although no woman could open a bank account by herself – you had to have a guy do it, even if it was your own money – and when you realize that a woman ceased to exist legally once she got married, but she got some of those rights back when she became a widow, you know, you’re, you’re thinking, well, that’s just crazy!  You know, it’s like once you married you, you really were not a person any more, and, and that was not that long ago.  So I’m having Pandora, this particular heroine that I’m working with right now, you, you can tell at the end of Marrying Winterborne that she wants to be independent and that she wants to maybe have her own business, but, my God, how do you do that when, when you’re a creative, strong, free-thinking young woman back then?  You know, you certainly can’t have it all!  You get married, and you lose it all.  So it’s –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Lisa:  – it’s a tough thing for her, you know?

Sarah:  It’s definitely a tough thing, and it’s also, it’s also familiar.  There are a lot of ways in which women now are severely limited.

Lisa:  Yes.

Sarah:  It may not be that, you know, you can’t sign a contract, but there are things that you are limited or, or burdened with the expectation of doing.  I can’t believe I didn’t send this to you, because it blew my mind, and it’s the type of the thing that you would love.  I’ll have to send it to you.  So there was this huge, huge MetaFilter discussion on, on MetaFilter.com about the emotional labor of women and how it’s almost always women who do things like make sure there’s a meal on the table, send the birthday card to the elderly relative –

Lisa:  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – make sure you get a birthday present, coordinating a home, coordinating schedules, coordinating food, and that that work has a cost.  Like, it, it, it is a labor, it has value, and it is draining –

Lisa:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – but because it’s invisible, people don’t acknowledge it or even see it.

Lisa:  Oh, you must send that to me!  Yes, yes, yes!

Sarah:  Oh, my gosh!  It will blow your mind.

Lisa:  Okay.  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.  Yeah.

Sarah:  I will send it, and somebody – bless them, because the, the, the page was, like, a bazillion lines long – somebody took it and made an annotated, highlighted PDF, and the PDF was still fifty-two pages, and I read every single word.  It blew my mind.

Lisa:  Oh, I’m going to also, I’m going to, yeah.  It, it’s funny because, I mean, this sort of relates:  my, my husband had heard this thing the other day that he asked me about, about a, a makeup tax, and, and he was like, what, what are they talking about, makeup tax?  And it was in the, the context of women in business or women in politics, and so I was like, well, honey, it, it means that women not only have to pay more money, but they also have to spend more time doing your hair and makeup.  Like, every single morning, you know, if, if you’re in business and you’re going to the office, you know, you have to do that, whereas men, you know –

Sarah:  Do not.

Lisa:  – they, they shave and brush their hair, and that’s it.  And so, yes, the obvious answer is, well, just don’t wear makeup and just don’t, you know, do your hair well, and it’s like, that’s not an option!  That is not!

Sarah:  No.

Lisa:  You know?  So, yeah, it’s women, women have had it harder in ways that are so subtle and invisible, as well as the obvious ways, you know?

Sarah:  And it’s, and it’s, it’s unappreciated and unacknowledged, the, the, the physical and the financial cost of those things?

Lisa:  Yeah.

Sarah:  And that’s been true, no matter what historical era you’re in.

Lisa:  Oh, it’s true!  It’s true.

Sarah:  You know?

Lisa:  Yeah.  And so, so these, these struggles, you know, don’t have to be front and center in, in a historical romance, but, but they’re there, and they, they should be there.  You should get at least a little sense of what it would feel like to be a woman back then and, because I know, I’m sure that even if, if it was the times and everybody had to deal with it, and that was just a woman’s lot, you know there were women who didn’t like it, who chafed at it, who, who were frustrated by it.  You know?

Sarah:  Oh, there had to be women who were like, I’m so not excited about darning everyone’s bloomers today!

Lisa:  Yes.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Can’t make me care about this.

Lisa:  Exactly!  Exactly, yeah.  And so I, I will tell you though, I did have fun with Marrying Winterborne though, because he owns the world’s largest department store, and his house is literally next to the store, because he owns this entire street block, you know, for the store and everything, so, like, any time in the novel that there’s a problem or she needs, like, a new pair of stockings or something, it’s just like the store is right next door, and I, and I really –

Sarah:  Oh, it’s horrible.

Lisa:  Oh, it’s – I, I had, it’s like this deep latent fantasy I never knew I had to, like, have –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Lisa:  – an entire department store, you know, next door to me so that I could plunder it at will, so.  The fact that he’s Welsh was super fun, ‘cause I’d never done a Welsh hero before, and it’s, you know, I, the, when I really committed to it and knew that I was going to have to do a Welsh hero is, is when I had read somewhere that a Welshman is like a Scotsman or Irishman on steroids, or, like, you know, ten times that, and I was like, okay, well, that would be a fun hero.

Sarah:  [Laughs] Here for this!

Lisa:  Yeah!  [Laughs] Exactly!  So, yeah, so, he, he goes through a lot of angst about, you know, I’m so tall, I have too many muscles, I’ll crush her in bed, you know, and I always like these sort of problems, you know.  It’s, it’s -.

Sarah:  Oh, it, it’s, it’s okay that that’s a problem.  We, we’re okay with that problem.

Lisa:  Yeah, you know who did that the best, though, ever, was Loretta, Loretta Chase with Lord of Scoundrels.

Sarah:  Oh, God.

Lisa:  He’s just terrified that he’s going to hurt her because he’s just so large and masculine and, you know, and, and it was like that through the whole book, and I loved it.  It was so –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Lisa:  No one will ever do it better than that, ever.  It was fantastic.

Sarah:  So I have two questions for you from podcast patrons.  One is from – two more; I have four total – Megan wants to know – first she would like me to thank you for all of the wonderfulness that you have written.

Lisa:  Ohhh, thank you!  Thank you, Megan.

Sarah:  And she also wants to know what inspires or triggers your storylines?  What are, you know, what, what are the things that help you enter the world that you’re writing about?  Is it, like, a story, or is it a detail, or do you start with the people?  What, what is your, what is your inspiration or trigger point?

Lisa:  Well, the, absolutely always I, I start with one character.  Sometimes it’s the heroine, sometimes it’s the hero, but there, there’s usually one of them that has more of a, more baggage that’s a driving force in the, in the book, where their character arc is the deepest and, and the most important, and so I start with that character, and then I try to find the foil that would provide not only the most conflict but the most help in, in resolution.  Because it’s always the best when someone seems so opposite from you, but then underneath you have these important things in common, and, and that just, that makes the relationship fabulous.  So, so I’ll start with the, the character, whoever’s having the most problems or the most need to change, find their, find their foil or their, their counterpart, and usually the setting, especially, you know, like, with this Victorian setting, there are so many things going on that usually the hero’s occupation or the, the heroine’s, you know, occupation or desire provides more ideas than I can even do anything with, you know?

Sarah:  That makes a lot of sense, ‘cause in, in effect, you’re creating the character and also sort of building in their conflict.

Lisa:  Yes.  Oh, yeah, yeah.  And, and the, the, the thing that’s most important, I think, to, to my characters or, or my books is that one or both of them feel like an outsider, and, you know, I mean, I, I have no problem saying, you know, personally, when I, when I was growing up I felt very much like an outsider.  I mean, I think everyone does in middle school and part of high school, but –

Sarah:  Yeah, I think it’s a requirement of puberty.

Lisa:  Yes, yes!  So, but I mean I was very shy, bookworm, huge glasses, braces, you know, never felt pretty, and, you know, it just, I, so, so that sense of not fitting in and that, that desire to fit in is, is this powerful driving force, and I think, you know, my personal drive just to, to work hard and try to accomplish things, you know, sort of stems from that, that feeling back then:  well, I’m going to find a way to be successful and fit in, and so, you know, pretty much every hero that I’ve, that I’ve done really has that sense of being an outsider, and of course that’s what the Wallflowers were all about in a – I loved it that you had four women who all felt like complete dorks or, you know, not fitting in.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Lisa:  And, and they help each other, ‘cause that’s what we do!  You know, we, we, we try to help our friends and tell them what they look good in and what they need to do, and –

Sarah:  Yep.

Lisa:  – we listen to their problems, so, you know, that’s, that, that’s key is, it’s, it’s boring when it’s two people who really fit in and are, are sure of themselves.  You know, there’s not much of a story there.

Sarah:  And it’s interesting to see people who are friends in romance.  I think, I think that it, it’s really enjoyable, in addition to the found family, to also have people who have caring friends who they turn to and rely on in addition to the romantic person?

Lisa:  Yes.

Sarah:  So it’s not just the hero, or it’s not just the heroine, that they have other people who support and care about them, whose relationships are just as important as the romantic one that’s being built during the course of the story.

Lisa:  Oh, very much!  Very much, and, you know, it’s also a huge source of humor.  I mean, I think there’s nothing funnier than women talk-, women are, are really funny, I think, innately.

Sarah:  [Laughs] Yes.

Lisa:  I think, like, you know, you know, these conversations that you can have with your friend that you could not even have with your husband, you know?

Sarah:  Oh, yes.

Lisa:  And so that’s, that’s an important, I mean, that would, I would hate not to be able to do that, and I don’t know how some people can write books and not do that, but, you know, I mean, I’m not slamming anybody’s stuff, but I’m just saying, it’s important to me, personally, to have it in there.

Sarah:  Right, of course.  So this question is from Jayne.  She wants to know:  you have become such an icon among romance writers.  How do you handle that?  And who were the writers that you looked up to as icons when you first started writing?  What did you learn from them?  Who were your role models when you were starting out?  And what do you do now that you’re looked up to that way?

Lisa:  Aww, well, I, I appreciate that, and I, you know, I, I don’t feel like an, I mean, I, I, I feel so, you know, loved and appreciated and it, and it, it means so much to me now, but, like, I don’t, you know, I don’t walk out to my, my little office in the backyard, you know, with my tiara on or anything, and – although I should, probably, but – [laughs] – anyway, I, I, so I think the, I’m trying, there are so many, it’s actually sort of hard to name.  Judith McNaught, I, I think was huge for me because she, she was one of these bridge writers where you, you had the, Kathleen Woodiwiss, who started it all, and, you know, Shirlee Busbee and Rosemary Rogers and all that, but then there was this very important transitional period where these writers kind of showed us the way toward, you know, modern historical romance, and so Julie Garwood, Judith McNaught, those writers I really looked up to and admired how they were, how they were making the, the genre relevant, you know, as it was changing, and Judith McNaught personally, I just met her a couple of times, but what a gracious, kind, amazing woman, but before I was even published, I went to a romance conference, and she was signing advanced copies of this book she’d done called Once and Always –

Sarah:  Oh, I love that book.

Lisa:  – and – oh, I do too!  I do too! – and there was this incredibly long line, and there was no way that she had enough books to sign, and I just kind of stood off to the side, you know, with my lower lip dragging the ground and –

[Laughter]

Lisa:  –  and, and then the, I don’t know why, I, she looked over or something and, you know, it’s like – [laughs] it’s, actually, I’m making myself sound really obnoxious, but, but she, she said something like, you know, do you need something, or can I help you?  And I said, no, I’m just about to go to the back of the line.  I’m hoping there’ll be a, a book left, though, because, you know, I’m an aspiring writer, and I want so much to read this, and blah blah blah.  So anyway, I went to the back of the line, and then the whole line just sort of disintegrated once there were no more books, and everybody went on their way, so I started to leave the room, and she came up to me and handed me one of the books that she had saved for me.

Sarah:  [Gasps] Oh, that’s so lovely!

Lisa:  It was the sweetest thing!  I know!  And she didn’t know me.  You know, I, maybe she feared I would be really obnoxious and, you know, follow her around if she didn’t – [laughs] – I don’t know, but it, but, but, no, she was so kind and so nice, and that, you know, that really, it, it has always stayed with me, and I, you know, I’ve tried to do things similar to that because, you know, every person that I meet in line, when, when I’m signing books, you know, I understand they’re, they’re there for a reason and that it’s, you know, that they’re, they’re important to me!  I mean, without these women supporting me and, and buying my books then, you know, I wouldn’t be able to do what I do, so, you know, I, I think that that sense of caring, you know, hopefully comes through, personally and in my writing, because I, I feel it very intensely, you know, and I know what it’s like to be in a terrible situation at three in the morning, stressed about something, and you, you need an escape, and so a romance novel is, is always what I’ve reached for, and so if someone reaches for one of my novels, it better be a damn good one, because three in the morning’s a tough time, you know?

Sarah:  And of course so many romance writers are romance readers and have been in that place –

Lisa:  Yeah.  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – and so it must be, it must be quite amazing to find yourself in the position where someone’s reaching for your book the way that you reached for someone else’s.

Lisa:  Yes!  Yeah!  I mean, it’s, it’s a complete honor, and, and yet at the same time it’s, it’s, it’s pressure, good pressure for me, because anytime I’m thinking, oh, well, you know, I don’t feel like it today, or this scene is good enough, then I’m thinking, it’s not.  It’s not good enough.  No part of the book is ever good enough if somebody’s reading this at three in the morning, you know?

Sarah:  [Laughs] Pressure, just a little.

Lisa:  Yeah.  Uh-huh.  Yeah!  But that’s, that’s – I mean, I, I can’t, I, if I can’t handle it, I shouldn’t be doing this, but I, it, it’s part of a drive that, that I think is necessary.  If you’re going to have a career for twenty-five or thirty years, (a) you better like it, and (b) you better keep yourself motivated, and so I, one of, one of my prime motivations is just knowing there’s somebody who doesn’t know me out there but may need what I’m writing just for an escape, and if it’s not a good escape or if it’s a, an indifferently written escape, it’s not going to help her very much.

Sarah:  And that every book should at least try to be a three-in-the-morning book.

Lisa:  Yes!  Yes, exactly.  And, and I always aim for that.  It is so disappointing to me if a book doesn’t turn out to be that, so I aim for that every time, and I don’t think that anyone could ever be full of themselves, you know, when, when they truly, honestly look at their efforts because not everything is perfect.  Not everything turns out as well as it, as it could, and so I’m so conscious of that that it just keeps me striving, you know?

Sarah:  And, and, and things in publishing have changed a lot since you started.  So many different ways of, of doing things.  Like, I remember, just even a few years ago, authors talking about how they had to print out their manuscripts and put them in FedEx boxes so that they could get trackable delivery to their publisher or their agent –

Lisa:  Yeah!  Yeah.

Sarah:  – and – [laughs] – all of these things –

Lisa:  That’s right!

Sarah:  – like, you don’t have to do that anymore!

Lisa:  Yeah, yeah, that’s right!  I mean, it’s, it, it has changed incredibly, too, in the variety of ways you can approach a historical.  I mean, Julia Quinn was just so amazing in bringing humor into the genre even more strongly than Julie Garwood, you know, who, who really was, was fabulous at that, but Julia Quinn just added a lightness to the entire genre that was much needed and, and really welcomed, and, you know, so I, I’ve tried to incorporate some of that and, and be free to have fun and do that, but at the same time, you know, I also like some of the really dark, moody, sexual stuff also, and –

Sarah:  Oh, yes.

Lisa:  Yeah!  It’s, it’s fun.  Stick, stick the layers of humor together with sex or vice versa, and – but not just sex.  I mean, like, you know, intense, deep longing, yearning.  I mean, that, to me, is the really good stuff.

Sarah:  Yes, please!

Lisa:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  ‘Cause that also, that is also a conflict.  You, you can’t yearn for anything un-, unless you cannot have it.

Lisa:  Yes, yes.

Sarah:  There’s no yearning unless it’s an obstacle that’s preventing you from, you know, achieving the thing that you’re yearning for, which just makes it better.

Lisa:  Exactly!  Exactly.  Or having it and wondering if you can hold onto it, you know, like, that, the whole conflict – I know some people must be tired of it, but that whole conflict with the hero thinking, I’m not good enough for her.  I mean, who, who wouldn’t fantasize about some really incredible, fabulous guy just agonizing ‘cause he may not be worthy of you.  To me, that’s a good fantasy.

[Laughter]

Sarah:  Well, it also means that he doesn’t take you for granted.

Lisa:  Yes!  Yes.

Sarah:  It’s the, it’s the opposite of being taken for granted.

Lisa:  You’re right!  You’re right!

Sarah:  And, and, and that’s a big, heady fantasy, because especially if you think about where a lot of women are in their lives when they are reading a romance, they are more likely in, in at least one or two, maybe, like, nine different circumstances in which someone is either under-, underestimating them or taking them, their presence and work for granted, and having someone do the opposite of that is an incredible thing to read about.

Lisa:  Okay, Sarah, I never thought about it that way.  I love that!  That’s great.  That really illuminates it.  Yeah!  Definitely.

Sarah:  And the other thing which you said about comedy, I did a, a podcast interview with a writer named Liza Palmer who writes contemporaries with some romantic elements, but she now works for BuzzFeed because they are doing original scripted comedy, in part, as she puts it, because there have been no good romantic comedies in film in, like, ten years, and she hates it.  There –

Lisa:  I know!  Yeah.

Sarah:  There’s no more romantic comedies, and I thought, you know, that’s what the genre needs.  We need to be able to single out, these are the historical comedies, these are the contemporary comedy romances –

Lisa:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – these are the ones that are funny.

Lisa:  Exactly.

Sarah:  I, I totally have times where it’s like, okay, cathartic cry would be good.  Let’s, you know, let me find something with the name Kinsale on it, and then I’ll cry –

Lisa:  Yes!

Sarah:  – for, like, nine hours and I’ll feel better, but sometimes I just want to, you know, laugh my fool head off, and it, it’s, it’s lovely that there’s some of that in every part of the genre.

Lisa:  Oh, I agree.  I agree.  Yeah, and, and with romantic comedies, I just, I idolized Nora Ephron.  I love Nora Ephron so much, and I just, I miss her.  She, she’s needed, and I, I wish somebody would come along who could, who could capture a little bit of what she had and do it with film, because whenever you see romantic comedies now, they’re so bitter or they’re so empty, you know?

Sarah:  And they’re, and they’re based on disappointment.

Lisa:  Yes!  Yes, and it’s, it, it’s too bad.  It’s, it’s too bad because she, she really brought something to the, to the movie business.  I, I think that there are, though, people who are doing it in, in romance fiction.

Sarah:  Oh, yes.

Lisa:  You know, if, if only they would make those into movies.

Sarah:  I know.  What’s, what’s that about?  Did you see the documentary that Nora Ephron’s son did about her?

Lisa:  Not yet.  I’m dying to.  I, was it, is it good?  Have you seen it?

Sarah:  Yes.  I actually taped it off of HBO and watched it with my husband one night.  I’m, I am not good at watching television.  I have a deep mistrust of television writers because they don’t like to know when the end is.  They would prefer not to have one, because if there’s no end –

Lisa:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – then there’s syndication.  And I am a romance reader; I like to know that you have an end in mind.

Lisa:  Amen!  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  You know, like, this is why I love K-dramas because, you know, K-dramas and, and telenovelas, they have an end.  Like, there’s a point where it’s supposed to end.  And so there are very few shows that my husband and I both agree on, and he watches the rest of them while he’s working out, so if, if you ever are in my house and it sounds like someone is screaming or being beaten or there’re entrails, he’s watching Game of Thrones on the treadmill and has it turned up to, like, volume level twelve.

[Laughter]

Sarah:  And I’m always worried that the neighbors are like, what happens in your house between 6:00 and 6:30?  Like, what is going on in there?

Lisa:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  But one of the things that we both agree on is, is documentaries because we’re both super nosy nerds who like to learn things and then learn –

Lisa:  We do too!  We do too!

Sarah:  Oh, love them.  So the Nora Ephron documentary, it’s so loving because it’s her son, and you can tell that this is, you know, something he did to sort of encapsulate and collect all of the things that she did into one meaningful, you know, hour and a half, and it’s very honest because she, she also had a very, you know, sharp and sometimes mean sense of humor, and when she did not like you, you knew it very clearly.  But the way that they talk about her as a writer is incredible.

Lisa:  Oh!

Sarah:  Like, it’s just, as a, as a female writer in an extremely male-dominated industry, as a journalist and then as a features writer and then as a novelist and then as a movie producer and, and writer, it was just like, oh, my God!  What, what else did you, did you also sell Tupperware and Mary Kay?  What else did you do?!  She was amazing.  This documentary will blow your mind.

Lisa:  Oh, do, do they go into her cooking?  Because apparently she was incredible!  She was an incredible cook!  I don’t know if they put that in there too.

Sarah:  Very, very little bit.  Like, they used to talk about how she hosted dinners, and she made it effortless to be both cooking and in the party at the same time, which is not an art that I have.  It, it’s really good.

Lisa:  Oh, oh, I’ve got to see it.  I will, I will send you, if I can remember this, I will – and, and I can find it – there, there is a peanut butter cookie recipe.  I have never tried it, but apparently it was her favorite cookie recipe.  She said it was the best cookie she’d ever had in her life, and she had to hound this chef for, apparently, years to get it –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Lisa:  – and then, so, anyway, so I’ll, I’ll send it to you.  I don’t know.  I’m not even a huge peanut butter cookie fan, but if she said it was the best, it’s got to be the best!

Sarah:  It’s got to be.

Lisa:  Yeah, yeah.

Sarah:  So my last question of every interview is, is always a bit of a challenge, because if I’m springing it on someone they’re like, I don’t know!  I have to grab my phone or my Kindle or my bookshelf, but are there any books that you’ve read lately that you want to tell people about?

Lisa:  Oh, I was so – I can’t remember the title, darn it!  Okay, I was so blown away by a Julie Anne Long book that I read, and I, I think the cover had a lot of red on it.  I can’t believe I can’t remember the title.  Julie Anne Long is fabulous.  Eva Leigh, Darcy Burke, Tessa Dare, I mean, I just, they, she, she is so fantastic.

Sarah:  Okay.

Lisa:  So, I mean, I, and I know I’m naming some Avon – you know, Kresley Cole, like, I love her too.

Sarah:  Okay, I’m looking at Julie Anne Long.  It was a historical, right?

Lisa:  Yes, yes.

Sarah:  Okay, ‘cause she has a contemporary coming out at the end of May.

Lisa:  Yeah, this –

Sarah:  Hot in Hellcat Canyon.  The two that are red The Legend of Lyon Redmond, and then there was also, A Notorious Countess Confesses had a lot of red in it, but that was about a vicar and a, and a, and a –

Lisa:  It, it was red.  I, I think it was Lyon Redmond.

Sarah:  Lyon Redmond?

Lisa:  Yes, yes. 

Sarah:  See, your brain and my brain are the same.  It, she was wearing a yellow dress.  It’s the, it’s the Elizabeth Hoyt with the yellow dress, and she’s looking over your, her shoulder at you, and, and all the librarians are now cringing as they hear me say that.

[Laughter]

Lisa:  I know.  I know.  The, the thing that she captured, though, as, as I recall, is this hero who, you know, again, is, like, very strong, very manly, and yet a really nice guy, so you never have a fear that he’s going to really hurt her.  Like, she just has this sense of when to go for it and when to, to hold back just enough, and so the, I, she, she’s exquisite.  She’s absolutely exquisite.  I, I think, I mean, I know she’s already big, but I think she’s going to be huge, I really do.  She, she’s amazing.

Sarah:  I love that I have so many fond memories of reading her books and just being happy.  Like, she is a three-in-the-morning –

Lisa:  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – author for me.

Lisa:  Yeah, yeah.  She –

Sarah:  She, she’s a three-in-the-morning book author.  I remember reading her books wrapped up in a, a, a blanket on an airplane on an overnight trip, and I can’t sleep sitting up, I just, I have to accept this about myself, and I remember being all wrapped up in a blanket on an airplane in the dark, trying to keep my Kindle from disturbing all the people sleep-, sleeping around me, and reading, like, two of her books back to back.  Like, I spent that whole flight in the Regency, and it was wonderful.

Lisa:  Oh, that sounds fun.  That sounds good.  Well, oh, no, I’ll tell you who else, who, Sarah MacLean.  The one where the – [laughs] – again, I’m, I’m describing the cover!  She’s wearing pants!  She’s wearing breeches on the cover, you know?

Sarah:  Oh, Never Judge a Lady by her Cover.

Lisa:  Yes, yes, yes, yeah.  And, like, I, I would kill to, I’m going to make her come up with titles for my books, because she does the best titles.  I mean, she’s fantastic.  So I think one of them is, what, A Scot in the Dark or something?

Sarah:  Yes.

Lisa:  Is, is that the cutest title ever?  So –

Sarah:  Oh, I mean, Cold-Hearted Rake is not a slacking title.

Lisa:  Well, thank you.  [Laughs] Thank you.  Yeah, that, that was just one of those that just popped into my head, and that was really, that was fun, especially when you’re from my era, generation, whatever, when that Paula Abdul song was just everywhere, and you –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Lisa:  – could, could not escape it, so, so that was kind of fun.

Sarah:  Is there anything else that you want to mention or talk about that, that I missed asking?  Is there anything that you wanted to add or mention or make sure you said something about?

Lisa:  No, not, I mean, not really.  It’s just that the, the past week has been so special to me because of the response, you know, of me announcing that I was going to write Devil in Spring, and it just really renewed me.  It, it made me feel so fantastic, and I’ve just been writing like a fiend ever since, so, you know, the support of all these romance readers and the, and the, the good wishes from them has, has made such a difference, so, you know, I just, I just wanted to send love and appreciation to all, all of them.

Sarah:  Oh, dude, you are so welcome, because that –

Lisa:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – that announcement just, it gave everybody something to celebrate?  It was so enjoyable.

Lisa:  That’s great.  Well, I’m, I’m going to write a good book, I promise.

Sarah:  Yes!

Lisa:  It’s coming along!

[music]

Sarah:  And that is all for this week’s episode.  Thank you to Lisa Kleypas for hanging out and talking with me, and thank you also to Jayne, Kati, Rebecca, and Megan for your questions.  I really enjoyed this interview; I hope you did too!

This podcast is sponsored by romance reader and fantasy author Angela Korra’ti.  If you like your urban fantasy with music, magic, and computer geekery, then explore Faerie Blood, book one of the Free Court of Seattle series, available in print and digitally wherever eBooks are sold.  Kendis Thompson of Seattle thinks she’s as normal as the next computer geek, and until now she’s been right.  But her world is about to turn on its ear, because she is the daughter of a Seelie Court mage and her mortal husband, and her faerie blood is awakening.  Suddenly the city she’s known all her life is transforming before her eyes.  Trolls haunt the bike trails.  Fairies and goblins run loose in the street.  An old woman who is not what she seems and a young wanderer running from his past stand ready to defend Seattle, and Kendis, from magical assault.  She will need those allies, because the power rising within her is calling her fey kin to the Emerald City to find her.  And kill her.  In honor of this podcast, book one and two of the series are on sale for 99 cents each until July 15, 2016!  And I will have links in the podcast entry where you can find them.

Author and podcast fan Kelly Maher is sponsoring the podcast transcript and celebrating her latest birthday, but she’s giving the gift to you.  Her Sweet Heat collection of backlist titles is available for half price at all outlets through the end of July 2016, and her short story “Blizzard Bliss” is available for free through the link in the podcast entry.  Volume 2 contains the novel End Balance and a short story, “Spring Storm.”  In End Balance, the CEOs of rival companies must deal with corporate espionage and the one-night stand they’d had months earlier.  Volume 3 contains three paranormal novellas, including Tera’s Awakening, in which an idealistic woman in a dystopian future discovers the industrialist that she has gone to confront has a much longer personal history than she could have ever imagined.  Each book is on sale for $1.99, and you can find links to all three volumes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

This episode’s music is provided by Crime and the Forces of Evil.  This track is “Kitsune at War” from the album Bone Walker, which is the sound track for Angela Korra’ti’s Free Court of Seattle urban fantasy series.  You can find this album at Bandcamp, Amazon, iTunes, or CD Baby, and we will have links to all of these places in the podcast entry.

If you would like to support the podcast, please have a look at Patreon.com/SmartBitches.  For as little as $1 a month, you can help make the podcast better and help me provide transcripts for the episodes that don’t have one yet.  Every pledge is so helpful, so if you’ve had a look or passed the link along or made a pledge yourself, thank you, thank you, thank you.  You are entirely made of awesome!

Future podcasts will include me talking with people about romance novels, ‘cause that’s how we roll, and if you’d like to email me or you have a suggestion or an idea, you can email me at [email protected], or you can call and leave us a message at 1-201-371-3272.  Leave a message, and I will hopefully use it in a future podcast, and you can pretty much ask anything you want.  Go ahead; it’ll be great.

Until then, on behalf of Lisa Kleypas and myself and everyone here, have a very great weekend, and we wish you the very best of reading.

[foxy music]