The Last Jedi
by Rian Johnson, George Lucas
It took me longer than I expected to see The Last Jedi, but finally I was blessed with the chance to watch confident women of a certain age boss Oscar Isaac around on the deck of a starship.
Here’s a short, spoiler-free review of The Last Jedi. Please note that there may and likely will be spoilers in the comments, as we are creating a space for you all to discuss the movie together. Also, please note that if there are typos, please forgive me as I am down with the same cold that everyone in Sacramento currently has. If you were one of the last healthy people in Sacramento, and you went to the movies on December 22…sorry about the virus.
The Last Jedi picks up exactly where The Force Awakens left off, with Rey handing (or rather, attempting to hand) Luke his lightsaber. The cast spends most of the movie split up into small groups, with Rey and Luke on Luke’s island hideout, Finn and new character Rose (she’s the best OMG I love her) trying a secret complicated maverick plan to save the Resistance fleet, and Poe arguing with Leia, played by my beloved Carrie Fisher, and then with Admiral Holdo, played by my beloved Laura Dern. Meanwhile Emo Kylo Ren has a Force mindlink with Rey, who thinks she can turn him to the good side. Honey, just…no.
Here are some important things about the movie:
- The moral of this movie is “Listen to women.”
- The other moral is “Fancy lineage is overrated. Don’t be a snob. Learn from your elders but don’t be bound to their authority or mistakes. Tropes were made to be subverted. Also, listen to women.”
- The third moral is “Relationships that involve gaslighting, whether between parent and child, mentor and student, or between lovers, are toxic. Also, listen to women.”
- “We will win this war not by fighting what we hate but by saving who we love.” I’m not sure that line makes strategic sense, but I couldn’t ask for a better mantra to save me from bitterness during the Age of Trump. By now it should not shock you to know that this line is spoken by a woman, to whom we should listen.
More, somewhat more trivial, points of interest:
- Laura Dern has the most beautiful hair color. This is trivial, yet it gave me great joy.
- Poe continues to have chemistry with everybody on screen including BB-8.
- Kelly Tran, who plays Rose, is a wonderful sparkly rainbow of glitter and I love her with the power of a thousand suns. I am also a very short person, and watching her try to drag Finn around by his foot (for reasons) is my everything. Dear Kelly, please be my best friend. Love, CarrieS.
- Women in this film are good fighters, pilots, leaders, and mechanics. They also do an astonishing amount of emotional labor.
- The movie is 152 minutes long not counting trailers. Don’t drink any soda.
- Things blow up. People fight with lightsabers. Shit burns down, etc. At one point the only sound in the theater was the stunned voice of the guy behind me as he said, reverently, “Day-um!”
And now, a word about our Lady and Savior, Carrie Fisher.
Carrie Fisher completed all her filming for this movie before her death and director Rian Johnson swears that her performance was not altered in any way after her death. It’s an emotional performance and an emotional viewing experience. I can’t say more without spoilers, unfortunately – but I do think her fans will be happy.
I’d happily give this movie an A, but frankly I think it’s at least two movies crammed into one. If it had been split into two ninety minute long movies certain elements could have been more fleshed out and we wouldn’t all have needed to pee so badly once the credits rolled. There’s pacing issues because of leaping from plot line to plot line, and some things don’t make sense although the plot does makes MUCH more sense than the plot of The Force Awakens.
Finally, I’m thrilled with the diverse casting overall, but it’s the end of 2017 and we still don’t have an onscreen, canonically, spelled out so the audience can’t miss it, LGBT character. You’ve come so far, Star Wars. We’re so proud. Now give Poe the sexy boyfriend he so very much deserves.
NB from Sarah: Several of you have asked for a space to discuss the film in detail with spoilers. Here is that space!
SO BEYOND THIS POINT THERE MAY BE SPOILERS. LOTS OF THEM. TONS. METRIC TONS. BE YE WARNED. THE COMMENTS ARE A SPOILER-IFIC ZONE OF MUCH SPOILER IN A WEBSITE THAT IS NOT FAR FAR AWAY. IT IS IN FACT RIGHT HERE.
GOT SPOILERS? WHY YES WE DO.
SO! What did you think? What parts resonated with you? Let’s discuss!
I’m not a huge Star Wars fan (not like I am a Marvel fan), but I really enjoyed The Last Jedi much more than I expected to.
For me, the Rey/Kylo scenes and the throne room battle were the best parts of the movie. Their scenes together were super intense and kind of hot. (And yes, I know how wrong that is.)
I like how Rey and Kylo are such opposites of each other, but that’s the thing that lets them connect and understand each other. She’s desperate to know more about her parents, and he’s desperate to escape from his family and their legacy.
I didn’t care for Kylo/Adam Driver in The Force Awakens, but now I feel kind of sorry for his character. Nobody ever believes in him. Luke didn’t think he was strong enough to combat the dark side, and it seems like Snoke was only using him until someone stronger (like Rey) came along. I think I would have issues too.
I also really liked the overall movie structure. The whole plot of the movie is just one long extended chase scene as the First Order ships are waiting for the Resistance ones to run out of fuel. The more I think about it, the more I like it. The chase — and the Resistance’s slowly dwindling ships/people/options — really gave it a lot of tension.
The movie was a little too long, and I felt like the casino subplot was a bit pointless. I would rather have seen Finn/Rose try to crack the code themselves. And there needed to be much more of Phasma in the movie.
I’m looking forward to seeing how they resolve everything in the third movie — or if they set the younger characters up for more future movies.
Here is my very spoiler-filled review: https://www.facebook.com/JenniferEstepAuthor/
The franchise has come so far!
I totally agree with your comments on Rose! Her earnest desire to always do the right thing made me happy in what could’ve been a very dark show!
What I found the most satisfying was seeing Kylo Ren evolve, something that was missing in the prequel trilogy. Vader was a big, big bad, but we never saw him change from Anakin into Vader. He just–presto!–“became” Vader. I love seeing Kylo acting like a spoiled child by trashing his helmet and having moments of weakness. When he finally kills Snoke and then refuses Rey’s attempt to bring him back to the light, it means something because we can see his conflict and understand why he makes the choice he makes. Even when he insists on facing Luke alone, it makes sense–he feels it will complete his embracing of the dark side.
My only issue–Luke, no matter how much he feared Ben’s potential–would never have thought of killing him. That was too out-of-character for me to swallow.
I saw the original trilogy in the theaters (multiple times, bless my understanding parents), and I walked out of TLJ with a sense of post-movie euphoria that I hadn’t felt since walking out of those movies back in the day. And then I was overwhelmed by FURY at the fact that Carrie Fisher is dead and we will never get a General Leia movie.
Also, I went into it expecting to hate the Porgs. Didn’t happen. I squeed so hard! My nerdy heart needs to see somebody open an overhead bin on the Falcon and be buried in a cascade of porgs, ala Kirk and the Tribbles.
Re: Luke’s behavior, I have some theories*
One of the really crazy wow things in this movie that is understated is the scene when Yoda, a force ghost and not actually present IRL, physically calls down lightning to destroy the tree/temple. This is the first time, I believe, that a force ghost has physically acted in the universe, and it declares and new level of Force involvement/usage. Which fits with the whole “force awakens” theme – we know the Force created Anakin to create ‘balance’, but since then the force has mostly been in the passive mode (the force that exists between all things) rather than active mode (that flows through all things). That changed with ep 7; Rey ‘awakens’, and the force starts to take an active role.
So why awaken Rey? What if it was *because* Ben solo slipped to the dark side? He’s the most powerful force user out there, other than Luke, and with him on the dark side, it’s now incredibly unbalanced, esp. since luke is having a sulk over on Skellig Michael.
But, to jump back a bit… there’s a couple things that might explain why Luke drew his saber on Ben.
a) Snoke, who we know was already grooming Ben at that time and had been for a while, is also acting on Luke to increase his suspicions, his doubt and his fear, and at the critical moment, when he seems to be shaking it off, to activate his light saber and provide the tipping momentum for Ben to go full Dark.
b) the force itself pushes Luke to drive Ben away, lest their be too much power on the side of the Light (we have a whole temple of potential Jedi going, here). Less likely, imo, but still possible.
I also think it’s interesting how many times the activation of a light saber is what pushes Ben in one direction or another in this series – we have at least three (Luke/Ben, Kylo/Han, Kylo/Snoke).
*ok, my husband had some of the theories, but he doesn’t read SBTB so I’m stealing them
From a romance fan’s standpoint, this movie has to be kind of disappointing. The only would-be ships that were developed were Kyle Ren/Rey and Rose and Finn. Rose and Finn are cute but don’t have much romantic chemistry or purpose in the film frankly.
Then there is Kylo Ren and Rey. They have a lot of chemistry but a hell of a lot of plot work would have to go into his redemption and I don’t think the filmmakers are going to bother. This seems like a doomed pairing and I hate a teased romance that goes nowhere. Most romance novelists would not do that to us!
I loved so much of this movie. I loved the opening with Poe taunting Hux (seriously, Poe has chemistry with people that he’s not even in the same space as) and the silent scene and the Porgs and so much. And Leia and Holdo…wonderful.
MY COMMENT IS A SPOILER-HEAVY ONE!
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I had no expectations when I went to see this movie (last Saturday at the v. first show: 8:30 a.m.)
Like, I knew I was gonna tear up/cry whenever Carrie Fisher showed up on the screen. That was an absolute given.
However, when she USED THE FORCE? I was openly weeping with a mixture of happiness at seeing her being so badass and sadness that Carrie has been gone from this plane of existence for a year.
I also laughed a lot! Which was truly surprising.
The action scenes (from the almost-decimation of the Resistance at the v. beginning to the last fight between Kylo and Luke) gave me all the goosebumps.
Another thing I loved was seeing women AND POCs E-V-E-R-Y-W-H-E-R-E: in the Resistance, at the casino planet, heck, even the First Order had both women and POCs! And, frankly, I think seeing myself (a WOC) and people who looked like me, my family, and friends reflected on the SW ‘verse was what made me *________* this movie.
To me, this movie was more emotionally tied to Rogue One in the incredible odds, the fact that certain things are fated to happen, that war is a terrible thing, and that hope and love will carry is through.
This movie was an evolution (legacy doesn’t mean you can use the Force; Choice is always the blind spot; Blind adherence to negative AND positive dogma leads to stagnation).
I’m not sure where the movie’s gonna go, but I’m not worried about it.
As for the few things I was meh or didn’t like: the porgs (they were cute, but too blantantly merch), the chase in the casino planet (went a tad too long), and Holdo’s death (Laura Dern made me cry the second hardest after Carrie.)
Although it doesn’t end quite on the upbeat level that The Force Awakens did, this movie is deffo an A+ for me.
As a huge Star Wars fan, I walked out of this film really disappointed. I wanted to love it, I really did, but I had way too many issues.
One, it was way tooooo long and too much stuff crammed into it. Things were dragged out in some parts and then over really quickly; the bad guys were taken out in a few minutes! Even for a Star Wars movie, the plot was really ridiculous and it felt like it was stretching.
I was happy to see a lot more diversity in the characters, and I really enjoyed Rose’s character. That being said, a lot of the main characters I loved in the Force Awakens just pissed me off. Poe, god love him, disobeys TWO (female, I may add) commanding officers and still gets to be a leader and do what he wants. Isn’t that nice for him?
Lastly, and this is my little trigger, is the use of animal cruelty and child abuse in the movie to demonstrate how bad the First Order is. I know some people have argued that that needed to be shown so “you know how bad they are”. Which no, no you don’t. I know it’s an imaginary world with imaginary animals and imaginary people and I’m overreacting, but I really hate it when directors use these issues as throwaway plot points. As someone who deals with animal abuse especially on a regular basis, I did not appreciate Rian Johnson throwing that in there, even if they are pretend creatures.
I had many more problems with the movie but trying not to go on a super long rant here.
@Dr Opossum –
You’re forgetting Poe/everyone and everything in the room!
I thought the Porgs were used just the right amount – not too much to be obnoxious, just enough to be cute.
I completely agree about Christie being underused AGAIN – another reason I wish they’d split this into 2 movies.
My take on Poe was that this was the first time that he realized that when he does something reckless, he’s not the only one who experiences the consequences – he was devestated by what happened to the fleet.
I had an argument with my husband over whether or not Luke’s flip from being the most optimistic character in the Star Wars universe to the most cynical was justified by what was (or wasn’t) shown in the movie. I didn’t see Luke’s off-screen change as a flaw in the film because, surprise surprise, people often grow and change over 30 years of life, but the Captain disagrees. This culminated with the Captain giving me a semi-serious rant about how the recent Star Wars movies *should* have gone. I don’t remember the details, but it reminded me of Patton Oswalt’s filibuster on Parks and Rec:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYNDssdsVnM
The main difference between Oswalt’s rant and my husband’s is the Captain was trying to serve what he sees as the themes of Star Wars and fill in the gaps between the trilogies while Oswalt is just trying to hit a bunch of “cool” plot points. But that didn’t stop me from playing the above video for him and pointing at Oswalt and saying “That’s you! That’s what you sound like!”
@CarrieS – I haven’t forgotten about Poe, that launcher of ships, but the movies just like to tease ships with him. No substance yet and I am not sure anyone involved knows what to do romantically with Poe and his amazing sex appeal.
I saw the movie yesterday and was disappointed. True, I am not an avid Star Wars fan…I prefer
Trek, and Marvel. I felt like there was too much melodrama and totally got bored in the casino scene. But I am 100% on board with Poe getting the sexy boyfriend he deserves. Sign me up for that movie.
After watching TLJ the first time, my analogy was “I feel like I’ve just eaten a 6 course meal and am so full and content, but when I burp I don’t know what I’m tasting.” If the first viewing was like Thanksgiving day, the second viewing was like busting out the leftovers in your sweatpants and really getting to enjoy your favorite dishes without worrying about missing something. My feelings about the movie greatly improved after watching it again, and since I have a 6 year old who watches Star Wars movies on repeat I predict this will grow to be my favorite in time.
Things I loved:
– The Character Development: We see immense character growth in our new generation of hero’s: Rey learns to be more wary; Poe learns how to be a leader versus a hero; and Finn discovers he truly does believe in the Resistance’s mission. At the same time, we see regression in Kylo—he has an opportunity to grow but instead choses the “burn it all down” route. Luke has regressed from when we last saw him in RotJ, from a heroic Jedi master to a bitter hermit. You can kind of see how they’re related in that regard…
-The Women in Charge. Leia and Holdo were incredible, now if only Poe had had the sense to trust them.
-The lightsaber battle was by far one of the best of any Star Wars movie. As a kid I’d mostly zone out during the long one on one fights between Luke and Vader, but this one had me rapt.
-The romantic tension: I’m not an official “shipper” but I sensed something between Rey and Kylo in TFA, and this movie turned that up to 11. Their scenes where they are linked are fraught with yearning and it’s almost like Twilight In Space (disclosure: I have neither read nor watched any Twilight). They are both lonely, powerful and emotionally immature. Part of Rey’s growing up was learning that sometimes that cute emo boy is a gaslighting narcissist who isn’t good for you. (Better luck next movie with Poe maybe :-P) To balance that, there’s also the sweet new friendship/maybe-romance between Fin and Rose. I know people thought the casino part dragged on or was unnecessary, but I still liked that time with them, watching them work together get to know one another in a glitzy, dreamy environment.
Quibbles:
-I do wonder about the point of Snoke. If he’s such a throwaway character, how in the heck did he get to such a place of power in this galaxy? I’m hope the next movie can address that in some way (I have ideas, JJ. Hit me up) and it’s not just relegated to some comic book or novel down the line.
-I wish the visuals of Leia using the force were done better.
Oh wow have I put too much thought into all this. (I just took out a whole section on other peoples’ quibbles…) Anyway, I agree this would be a B+, A- movie and I’m excited to see where it goes from here.
I have been a huge Star Wars fan since I was a toddler and I LOVED this movie. It had a bunch of things that I’ve always wanted in a Star Wars movie:
– A wide range of strong, interesting, unique female characters being AWESOME and presenting an alternative solution to problems;
– A complex villain who is well drawn and sympathetic to the point that he is a worthy foil for the protagonist (sorry Vader, but you were always a *little* short of 3-dimensional for me);
– A true demonstration of the sacrifice that is part of rebellion and war;
– A complex and slowly-developed romance.
I know that Reylo is problematic, but I’m also drawn to the way their similarities were sketched so well in this film. They are both lonely, forced to carry great burdens that they didn’t ask for since they were children. For all the arguments about Kylo Ren still having good in him, I think it’s important to remember that Rey has darkness in her, too. We all do. That’s the focal point of Star Wars: we are all tempted by the dark, but we are all worthy of redemption.
In the current political age where manipulation and abuse of women is finally being cast out into the open, I do NOT want to make excuses for Kylo Ren… but I think he is representative of toxic masculinity and its effect on men, too. And I can personally see the appeal of burning down the system, good and bad, to start something new.
The optimist (and romance fan in me) wants this… despite the problems. I just have trouble seeing a way that Kylo could redeem himself other than dying…
Whew. So many thoughts, guys. I’m still processing.
P.S. I’m also emotionally compromised because I watched this Reylo Theory video (it’s 40 minutes long… I have no life) that came about after The Force Awakens. Despite not having anything from the new movie, it paints an interesting picture of the Reylo dynamic that they set up in the first movie, kind of subtly and off the page. There were a lot of clues I didn’t pick up on about where things were going, even back then:
I thought the movie was just okay. (Full review up at http://thearmchaircritic.blogspot.com/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi.html ) I thought the opening “one cool fighter can take on and defeat the whole First Order” was ridiculous, and near the end there were several points where I thought “the movie is going to wrap up… nnnnnnnow!” and it didn’t happen. While it was nice to see a sci-fi movie where women were largely in charge or in charge of the action, thinking back there weren’t many scenes that stood out in a good way.
I’m excited to see it because I’m NOT a star wars fangirl but I married a total fanboy. We diverged over The Force Awakens (I *love* it and he thought it was only okay) and I’m about seeing women and POC’s in the forefront here. I very much want the Poe LGBT storyline in movie three/movie nine however we’re counting them now.
Just finished seeing TLJ. As a lifelong Star Wars fan, I was so happy to see so many women and POCs in the movie. Plus, then they were competent fighters and mechanics and leaders and arms dealers! I found myself almost crying a few times.
I didn’t feel the Reylo yearning. To me every interaction felt much more sister-brother rather than romantic. From being annoyed at him for being shirtless to both being annoyed at the timings of their connections, to having each others’ backs and being a great team but not agreeing on much, it just felt more familial to me. I guess I’m still shipping them as twins. All the long shots on Rey’s and Kylo’s and Leia’s brown eyes, and the two dice that Luke handed Leia at the end. I also thought Kylo was deceiving Rey about her parents.
The Porgs (Beanie Boos) and crystal critters and the animals being raced didn’t annoy me as much as I thought they would, though I hated the need to show abuse, as a previous commenter mentioned. The thing that bugged me the most was the hint of Poe’s interest in Rey at the end. Just no. Give him a hot boyfriend and let her lead without a man in the picture.
Overall, I loved it and super excited for the trilogy’s conclusion.
I’m not a Star Wars fanatic. I watched episodes 1 thru 6 after I saw TFA two years ago. I really enjoyed TFA but hated this one. It’s the first time I can remember not finding a redemptive moment that justified the cost of the admission, popcorn, and a drink. The porgs were cute and I loved them and Chewbacca, but….not worth $25. I wanted a more satisfying Luke situation. I wanted answers about Snoke. I wanted Rey’s past to make sense. I wanted the super hot tension between Rey and Kylo to not waste my time. I wanted the super creepy dark side hole on the island to be….something.
I realize second movies rarely do anything satisfying in answering plotholes, but this felt like it zagged so far ofcourse I can’t see how a third movie could set it back.
And #5 is spot on. I regretted the large drink so badly…
I enjoyed it a lot, but for some reason both TLJ and TFA didn’t feel quite star warsy to me. After a lot of thought, it think it’s because the core characters felt a bit disconnected from each other. (Finn knew Poe and Rey, but Poe and Rey don’t actually meet until near the end of TLJ.)
Hopefully this is something that changes next movie.
Loved Rose. Really loved that despite geeking out over meeting a hero, she did her job without hesitation.
I’d have liked more backstory on Snoke and Phasma, but I suppose we weren’t likely to get much of that in the movie anyway. (I’m hoping for a Snoke book. Just got Phasma today.)
I’d really love to know how the third movie would have gone if we hadn’t lost Carrie Fisher. I have theories, based on something Kylo doesn’t do.
I really loved Luke in this. It made sense to me he’d react that way given his part in what happened with Ben.
I also loved the wildlife. The foxes were gorgeous and I’m a sucker for cute, so the porgs had already won me over. The story behind why they’re there didn’t hurt. (CGI puffin costumes!)
I did have one problem with the plot, which contains a SPOILER:
I did like Admiral Holdo, but I was frustrated by the way she was written. No, she wasn’t obligated to tell Poe what the plan was, but why not drop a hint or two that there is a plan? I’ve seen people criticize Poe for not listening to her, but she never really seemed to tell him anything.
Also, it never occurred to her that the loose cannon type might try something to save the fleet if he just thought they were running away until they ran out of gas? She should have been smarter than that.
Not a huge Star Wars fan either. I grew up with the first trilogy and loved Leia and Han (like every other little girl back then). When the prequel trilogy came out, I went with my husband (a huge Star Wars fan and didn’t really like them.
I saw TFA and liked it okay. I liked Poe and Finn especially but sort of shrugged coming out of the theatre. The only conversation I recall about it was when my BFF’s hubby and my hubby were like, “Is Rey Luke’s kid?” And my BFF and I both going, “Nope because of the bridal carry.” And then spending the rest of dinner explaining the Hades/Persephone myth 🙂 Lit crit and romance reader geeks for the win.
I love this movie though and am honestly troubled by how much I like the problematic Reylo (Rey and Kylo pairing). As someone said, it’s Twilight in Space. Kylo is seriously Edward without the fangs.
But here’s the thing: No matter how bad his backstory may have been, Kylo has committed some seriously heinous acts on screen–patricide, the slaughter of innocents on Jakku, etc. He’s got a trail of dead guys in his wake. Even if he does now want redemption, how can he earn it short of sacrificing himself? I don’t see a way out for him and that makes my shipper heart (of course I’m a shipper–I’m a romance fan!) sad. But seriously, how do we get to happily ever after from here?
I think he’s negging her on her parents too. I think she’s a Kenobi because that mirrors the first movie with Anakin and Ben Kenobi trying to bring balance to the force. I love the concept of the force being equalitarian but we have Poe, Finn, Rose, and the baby stable boy at the end of TLJ to make that point. Not sure we need it now and I like the mirroring.
I loved the strong women, Leia, Holdo, Rose. Did think Leia’s CGI Force moment looked a little “Touched by an Angel” but teared up anyway because it reminded me of Carrie Fisher’s comment that she wanted her obit to say “She died drowned in moonlight, strangled by her bra.”
I have been a SW fan since day one 1977, and For the first time since ROTJ I felt like I was back in those heady days again. I LOVED this movie. Yes, it has its faults — I think the whole subplot with Finn and Rose could have been integrated with the main storyline better, and I was SERIOUSLY disappointed with Snoke and Phasma who weren’t even B-level villains — but I can see where Johnson was going with this and I can understand why he did what he did in many instances. I can also see why Mark Hamill was disappointed with the script (he felt Luke would not have become that bitter from his disappointment with Ben, nor would he have tried to kill him) but he did a damn fine job of making it believable anyway and that last lightsaber battle with Ben was a tour de Force (heh). I do get the distinct feeling that we have not seen the last of Luke and that the next movie will feature So Many Force Ghosts.
Speaking of the next movie I can clearly see where they were going with this — in a mirror of ROTJ, rather than the son redeeming the father, they were going to have the mother redeem the son. Clearly they can’t do that now, and I am so, SO upset. It would have been a glorious moment for Carrie. I HOPE they do not instead go the romance route of having Rey redeem him because it would not only be terribly trite but I think inappropriate considering how he has tried to manipulate her feelings (and yes, I think he’s lying about her parents too. He knows who she is; if you remember in TFA the first time he saw her face he said “It IS you!”)
Loved all the strong, commanding women. Wish we had learned more about Holdo before her death. (And she was within her rights not to discuss anything with Poe. He had been demoted after his last fiasco and was no longer within the need-to-know group. As Leia made plain to him, he needed to learn to shut up and trust his commanding officer and follow orders. Going off half-cocked with guns blazing or a half-assed plan is not always the best way to go, and he ended up learning that the hard way.) Loved Leia FINALLY getting to use her Force, if not in the way I had hoped. Loved all the trolling — Poe trolling Hux, Luke trolling Rey, Yoda trolling Luke, and at the very end, Luke trolling Kylo using Han’s voice. Glad they did not overuse the porgs, just used them to lighten the mood occasionally. Actually surprised and pleased with the emotional maturing of Kylo Ren in this movie and showing him developing into a respectable villain, despite still being hobbled by overemotional overreaction.
Need to see it again just to pick up on all the background detail that, according to myriad sources, I missed the first time…
Really spoilery spoiler:
To everyone who thinks Kylo is lying to Rey about her parents, please remember that she confirms it. She does actually remember them.
It also fits into the established “where new Jedi come from” of the prequels. Jedi didn’t have kids, yet they had kids to train. Therefore, people with the ability to use the force must pop up randomly in the population.
It certainly makes what she does in TFA hella impressive.
I loved the movie – it’s an A is a feeling in my heart that perfecting can’t achieve thing. I have some quibbles, there was a lot going on, but I got to spend a lot of time with the best people in the Star Wars universe (except Dr Aphra and co – I’d watch that movie so much.)
Anyhow my biggest quibble is while I lobe that the message is listen to women, the women don’t get to make the same mistakes the men do. Poe can cause the deaths of so many rebels and we still root for him. Fin can try to desert and we understand and forgive him. I would have been up for a Kylo redemption up until his post Snoke antics. I maybe had to hunt down a fantasy with a dark hero because my heart still ships even if my head is like nooooo.
Anyhow, the women need to be near prefect in order to be loved. I want to see Rey wrestle with the dark side and lose – only to win in the end or blow our minds away with a new understanding of the force, but i want her to screw up. I want a man to end up in a coma so Rose can learn an important lesson. I want to see Leia grapple with het relationship with Ben, not because I think she’s an awful mother, but because when my kids hurry other people I feel like an awful mother.
Not sure how well a man would make that film, so I’m pretty content with this one. They really need to give 10 Star Wars films to women to make you even things out.
Yay! So many interesting thoughts and conversations here.
My two cents on Luke echoes a few others here (SPOILERY!): I actually think it’s believable that he became bitter and disillusioned, and perhaps even to the extent of eliminating his apprentice, especially when considering the push-pull of a close apprenticeship/mentorship dynamic. Though I agree the reason could be more compelling and deep, the Jedi way of life does seem to require a certain amount of rigidity in thinking. This, to me, provides a sufficient enough foundation for Luke to act out of character or be tempted to validate his worldview by eliminating those who might shake it (i.e., some form of righteous anger).
Echoing some of you looking for more complexities in non-male characters, I’m holding out for a trans/non-binary/female Sith (and yes, disappointed over the stunted Captain Phasma story). I’ve played KOTOR and read some of the non-canon books on them (Darth Bane series highly recommended if anyone’s interested and has a female Sith co-lead!!) and I’d looooove to see how the Dark manifests in someone who is not male on screen.
Sidebar: I’m glad this comment thread is full of thoughts and ideas (regardless of whether we liked the movie or not – I loved it but I can also understand the dissatisfaction) rather than a trashing of each other by the like vs dislike camps. Too many of the SW comment threads have escalated to that at this point, so it’s nice to have an avenue to just share our thoughts, however varied they may be 🙂
Agree, AG, it’s nice to have a civilized discussion of WHY we liked/disliked the film without the fanboys bashing us because “girls just don’t understand Star Wars” 😛 If any film should prove “Star Wars is for girls too” this one is it.
BTW my boss saw the film yesterday and came up with an interesting theory. She believes that instead of the Force turning up in random people to restore the balance, someone is actually seeking out Force-sensitive children and hiding them in places where the First Order is unlikely to look. Not sure I go along with that given the hints to the contrary, but it’s not out of the question, I suppose.
I’m not a big Star Wars fan (AT ALL) even though I watched all the movies.
This one felt way too long and had too many nonsensical moments. Also, it felt like it had too many characters and many of the cast members were wasted.
To me, the best SW movie was “Rogue One”.
I have been an uber fan since before ANH (novelization for the win!). I got to see TLJ earlier this week and I personally rate it about a B. Definitely not as annoying as the prequels, but not as standout as my favourites from the later films.
Reylo falls flat for me. He’s a gaslighting jerk and I certainly hope he gets his comeuppance. Rey continues to be awesome but I felt that the compressed timeline didn’t give us much chance to see her growth.
I didn’t like Luke’s storyline being so fear-driven. I did like him finally getting past that and reaching out to Leia. She was really fabulous. If you haven’t read the YA Princess of Alderaan, do so now. It gives the backstory you wanted on her friendship with Holdo.
Rose is everything. I loved how she was relentless for the Resistance. Much more clear-headed than Finn or Poe. Definitely continuing the gender commentary we saw in TFA!
I agree with many others who regret that with two and a half hours of film, we still didn’t learn anything about Snoke, say. I found some of the humour too over-the-top and laboured. Funny moments should be short and sweet.
But the heavy-handed metaphor we see throughout and get reinforced at the end, that the Force isn’t about names and fame, but about the hope and spark that can grow everywhere? Let’s hope we see a resurgent Resistance across the galaxy wiping out the many forms of oppression just when we need it most in Episode IX.
Loved it. Holdo was a badass, as soon as I figured out what she was doing, I nearly fist-pumped. Oscar Isaac is just…sigh and rawr. Loved Rose and I loved her philosophy. And I think the dynamic between Rey and Kylo, while poisonous, is interesting.
In the wake of revelations about Harvey Weinstein and Charlie Rose, the scene where Kylo Ren starts a Force-Skyping session while shirtless and Rey asks if he has a towel or something he could put on has a whole new significance.
(Yes, Spoliers!)
Oh, I was thinking Rose was an LGBT character? Was the bomber pilot her sister rather than her significant other? Actually missed that.
Alas, C- from me.
Really great performances, I liked all the new characters, Rey’s origin was one of my two top picks for what it *should* have been coming in, so can’t complain there. That the Jedi need replacing with something that is less a bunch of arrogant dicks, is a perfectly reasonable take consistent with the prequel trilogy, and Luke having ended up a something of a broken man after screwing up real bad works fine as an explanation of for why he went AWOL for me.
However, I just couldn’t get over the idiot plot of the non-Force story-line, and I felt, at the end, they whiffed the potential they built up in the Force plot. Also, I think Rian Johnson has left very little to work with for Episode IX 🙁
In the non-Force story, Hux is an idiot, then Po is an (insubordinate) idiot, then — most breaking my suspension of disbelief — Admiral Holdo (Laura Dern) is an idiot, all to set up Finn, Rose, and BB-8 going on their shaggy dog mission to Canto Bite and so they end up betrayed on the Dreadnaught (Star Destroyer?) to leave everyone in dire peril for the final act, and additionally waste Phasma as a character yet again.
Thing is, Hux is slimy, over-promoted, despicable piece of fascist (bleep), but I didn’t see anything in The Force Awakens that established him as thick as two short planks. Yes Po is is a cocky hot-shot, but disobeying a direct order FROM LEIA? Nope, didn’t buy it.
Yes, given those circumstances Po is not going to be on list of trusted people Admiral Holdo is going to tell secret plans to. But here’s the thing, given the tanking morale its idiocy not to reveal the plan to as many people as you can, and that an experienced Admiral like Holdo wouldn’t do so is not credible, and given what the plan is, its not even possible. That plan can’t be a *secret* plan. For that plan, you need to tell everybody what it is so they can do the evacuation. And you can’t tell it to everybody yet have Po, Rose, Finn not know, someone would have clued them in. Hell, Po would be one of the people organising the ships for the thing whilst Rose would be directing people on the hanger deck.
So it makes no sense that Rose is having to stun people to keep them from jumping ship, when the plan is for everybody to jump ship…
…because clearly Admiral Holdo did tell everybody the plan, since it only fails because because of Finn, Rose and BB-8 being betrayed at the end of the shaggy dog mission. Only she must have told everybody off screen, so we the audience didn’t know and therefore could think that Po might possibly be justified in becoming a now mutinous idiot.
FFS.
TL;DR That plot really annoyed me. A lot. And was disservice to all the performances, the characters, and the audience.
On the other hand, the Force plot (‘humour’ aside) rolled along real well all the way up until the point Rey and Kylo finish off Snoke’s guard and confront each other.
And which point, I ask myself, why did I suddenly see all the safest story directions, with the least potential, being taken?
No, Kylo coming to the light would make no sense. But Rey falling darkness would. Or better, they maintain their temporary truce for now, and go their separate ways, Kylo breaking with the First Order, to gather and build the Knights of Ren, whilst Rey escapes to rescue Finn and Rose and the resistance. Leaving ‘I saw you turn to the dark side’ to hang over Rey, whilst ‘I saw you turn to the light’ to hang over Kylo.
No, we get completely opposed, dark side supreme overlord and light side last hope. Again. And I can’t seek Kylo is going to be an interesting character in the supreme overlord slot.
And why have Luke say in his final speech, that Kylo is wrong about there will be no more Jedi, pulling the rug out from the idea I thought they were building up to, that of Rey founding something completely new, just like Kylo isn’t creating the New Sith? That would have worked really well with her now confirmed origin.
It’s as if they went right up wire on The Last Jedi being the last Jedi, and had a failure of nerve at the end.
*sigh*, currently a lot less interested in Episode IX, with the resistance reduced to fitting inside the Millennium Falcon, a unified First Order, and all the Force stuff in what seems to me to be a very boring place, I don’t see how JJ Abrams goes from here for Episode IX, unless he does another big decade long time skip.
And really not interested in Rian Johnson’s trilogy now, given, as I understand it, he was doing the writing as well as the directing on this one, and everybody loved his script, so its probably going to be him writing those.
No, it wasn’t as bad as I make it sound. It’s just the bad bits really got to me, and good bits (which were still pretty good) didn’t outweigh them enough.
Okay, looks like I wanted to get that off my chest. Sorry guys 🙂
I’m old enough to have seen Star Wars (A New Hope) in the theater when first released. And I thought TLJ was a beautifully art directed film, gorgeous to look at, with some of the best acting in a Star Wars movie to date.
However:
Ahead be spoilers. This is also TL;dr – a whole herd of teal deer – so apologies in advance and feel free to skip.
TLJ wasn’t a chapter in a cohesive story.
TLJ was a deconstruction, a film school theory project. It’s not interested in telling a story, in advancing characters. The sole driving thrust of the film is to take the audience’s expectations and knowledge of Star Wars (and genre films in general) and thumb its nose at them.
I agree with some of the praise. Rose is my favorite new character and I liked Finn’s and Rose’s story – although it felt like it existed in a separate film – and I applaud the diverse casts and attempts at gender balance.
But this film is not as progressive as it’s clapping themselves on the shoulder for being.
The human characters who had the Force: all white. The ending image of the film people love? A white male with the Force. Yeah, really subversive.
It also undermines women as leaders. Holdo and Leia coo over how much they like Poe like indulgent mommies, not like military leaders with an insubordinate mutineer responsible for numerous deaths and destruction of the (totally ridiculous) bomber fleet on their hands. At the end, Leia cedes authority to Poe (“What are you looking at me for? Follow him”). Plasma becomes a cartoon monologuing villain that would be rejected by a traditional Disney animated film, an utter waste of Gwendolyn Christie.
Meanwhile, Kylo Rent throws tantrums a three year old would be ashamed of yet is the new Supreme Leader. I still can’t take him seriously as a bad guy. Hux is even worse – in this film he’s not only a thin cardboard cariacature with zero menance, he’s stupid. All that was missing from the opening scene was the guy from the cellular service commercials asking “Can you hear me now?” I realize complaining about character depth in a Star Wars film is rather silly, but Darth Vader and Tarkin these two are not, despite the obvious parallels.
And YES to the comment above about Holdo’s behavior. This was a character in service to the story, instead of the story serving the character. How did Holdo think she was going to get everyone on the transports without telling them? How could they gather the equipment and supplies to take them with them if they didn’t know? When Poe saw the transports being fueled, the plan was out of the bag. What purpose did it serve to not tell him, other than to create a Macguffin for Rose and Finn and set up DJ’s betrayal?
Speaking of, DJ is the perfect example of how the film is just one long deconstruction. Here’s the morally ambitious scoundrel ala Han. Oh look, he can be bribed into rescuing the princess – I mean, breaking the codes. Oh look, he’s taking his box of credits – boxes that look very similar to the boxes given to Han by the Rebellion in A New Hope – and he’s taking off. Oh look, someone is shooting from above and rescuing Luke.- I mean, Rose and Finn – from sure death. Oh look, it’s — not DJ! Psyche! It’s BB8. HA HA.
Same for Rey and Kylo. Luke – I mean Rey – voluntarily gives himself/herself up to Vader and the
Emperor/Kylo and Snoke. Vader/Kylo turns on his master and kills him when Luke/Rey was about to be destroyed. But then: HA HA.
Luke/Rey is one, way overly long and purposefully disturbing (people talk about shirtless Kylo being uncomfortable in the age of #MeToo – I think Luke squeezing the human-looking breast of an alien cow-woman is more icky) deconstruction of Yoda/Luke in TESB/RotJ. HA HA. Yoda does train Luke despite his misgivings. Luke gives Rey two half-assed lessons, then runs away scared of her power. HA HA.
Finn and the “Death Star tech” cannon is Luke in the trench over the Death Star in ANH. HA HA.
And everyone raves about Rose’s last speech to Finn. It’s an awesome sentiment. But while she technically saved him (but for all she knew, not for long, as it was established the door into the base was the only exit and so when the cannon took out the door, the Resistance was toast anyway – and she saved him by crashing her own ship and potentially killing herself so…. People draw parallels to the opening scene – look, Poe finally learns when to cut his losses and run! – but again, that suicide run to the cannon was established as their ONLY hope of escape. Luke showing up to face Kylo was a literal deus ex machina.
The wide-eyed child inside me – who saw Luke blow up the Death Star on the big screen, who saw Luke grow and mature from an impetuous adventurer into a mature, reflective Jedi who didn’t give up on the visual representation of the galaxy’s evil and had his faith rewarded – is so…sad. Sad that the message appears to be you can’t grow past who you are in your twenties. Once a scoundrel, always a scoundrel, despite Return of the Jedi. Once a whiny farm boy, always a whiny farm boy, despite RotJ. Once a princess who has a hard time expressing her feelings, always a princess who can’t maintain an emotional connection with her child or her lover, despite TESB and RotJ. And like baldness, falling to the Dark Side appears to skip a generation in the Skywalkers, but it’s apparently as inescapable as taxes even though Ben Solo had none of Anakin’s internal and external motivations to fall (yes, Luke was an idiot to wake a teenaged boy out of a sound sleep, but still).
This film did make me appreciate the prequels more. At least they attempted to tell an original story that complemented the original trilogy, not tear the OT down and squat on its characters and themes.
Thanks for allowing the space to rant. I guess this film is still making me think, a week after I’ve seen it, so there’s that. But praising this film for wiping out the Skywalkers and Luke’s legacy to me is like praising a romance that ends with the hero dead and the heroine committing suicide. Romeo and Juliet has its deserved place in the literary canon, but it’s not a romance. And this was not s Star Wars film.
BTW I found it interesting that Finn, a Black man, had to be the one lectured about privilege, since he was the one coming from the privileged, powerful First Order — but he only had that privilege while part of the First Order, and wearing white armor that made him indistinguishable from white men.
Thank you to SE for mentioning “Ben Solo” because others had referred to Ben and I was like “Ben who? Ben Kenobi? WTF?” Wasn’t sure if I was tripping, if the movie was time-traveling, or if people were typo-ing Ben for Ren as in Kylo Ren. LOL anyway thanks.
I still want to see it, imperfect though it may be, and even though Laura Dern apparently dies which is hella annoying. (I am still very mad at Wonder Woman for killing The Princess General, and still very sad about losing Carrie Fisher’s Princess General before she had a chance to kick more ass.)
I shipped Kylo Ren and Rey so hard that I wrote a steamy fanfic for the Kylo Ren topless scene. (Goes without saying, don’t judge me!)
https://www.wattpad.com/511090142-kylo-ren-rey-ship
I find it interesting that Kylo Ren has now killed all his fathers- the blood one, Snoke, and Luke ( though he didn’t succeed, Luke died immediately after that battle). So yes, it was coming down to mother and son, though how they’re going to do that without Fisher is breaking my heart. Oedipus all over the place. Rey will have to be the stand in.
The thing I don’t get is that Poe was right that putting everyone in transport ships was crazy suicidal. They’re down to a handful of people and the Millennium Falcon.
I thought The Force Awakens was fine, but leaning too far in the direction of fan service for my taste. I liked The Last Jedi much better. Aside from the points others have made above about the substantial roles for women, etc., I thought the initial space battle was really well done–I also liked the space battle in Rogue One, and normally space battles are restroom time for me–and the final sequence on the mineral planet was just stunning. Almost nothing stuck with me visually from TFA, but I will never forget those plumes of red against the stark white of the desert (although for awhile, I was convinced they were on a snow planet like Hoth).
I did think that the plotline with Finn and Rose could have been cut in favor of being more substantially written into the fleet storyline. That was a lot of time and money spent on a plotline that didn’t really lead anywhere. I do love the character of Rose, though! I am really looking forward to the final movie when hopefully we get to see Rey and Finn and Rose and Poe all interacting with each other. Rey spent most of the movie with Luke and Kylo, who were both messing with her, and Poe spent most of the movie either arguing with people in authority or piloting vehicles, so I am looking forward to some actual peer relationships.
To carry over a Twitter comnent, Poe Damerson is the Jack Harkness of the Star Wars universe. He flirts with everyone and everything. It’s his default setting. And I am HERE FOR IT.
I was really thrilled to spot obvious tributes to Lois McMaster Bujold’s work in the script. I’ve been told that Rian Johnson is a big fan of hers. That just made me squee.