Dear Bitches, Smart Author Podcast, December 18, 2015

[music]

Sarah Wendell:  Hello, and welcome to episode number 172 of the DBSA podcast.  I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and with me today is Amanda, also of Smart Bitches, Trashy Books.  Amanda reached out to me because she had an idea for a podcast to discuss the differences between depictions of heroines with sexual agency in romance and her own experiences with her own agency.  Please be aware, this is so not safe for work.  Put on headphones.  Like, seriously, so many headphones.  All the headphones.  We talk about Tinder, romance fiction, the distance between sexual goals and romantic goals, compartmentalizing sex and intimacy, and saying yes to new experiences.  Plus, we question whether indeed we do want to have figgy pudding.

This podcast is brought to you by New American Library, publisher of Misconduct, the sexy new contemporary romance by New York Times bestselling author Penelope Douglas, on sale now.

The podcast transcript this month was sponsored by Renee Ahdieh, author of The Wrath & the Dawn, published by G. P. Putnam’s Sons Books for Young Readers and available in print and eBook.  This sumptuous and enthralling retelling of A Thousand and One Nights will transport you to a land of golden sand and forbidden romance.  She came for revenge; will she stay for love?

And if you’re listening to this podcast and you’re thinking, I would totally like to sponsor an episode or a month’s worth of episodes or the transcript or both, you should totally email me:  [email protected].  I would love to hear from you.

The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater, and as always, I will have information in the podcast entry as to who this is, though I bet you already know, along with links to the books that we discuss during this episode.

And now, without any further delay, on with the podcast!

[music]

Amanda:  Hello.

Sarah:  Hey, how you doing?

Amanda:  Good morning!

Sarah:  Good morning!  How are you?

Amanda:  [Laughs] All right.  Aside from the, the drumming that was happening earlier, I’m fine.

Sarah:  [Sighs] These people sound like unmitigated dickbags.

Amanda:  They’re like little babies.  They’re either still in undergrad or fresh out of undergrad.  They didn’t even know how to pay their utilities when they first moved in?

Sarah:  Ohhh, God.

Amanda:  They, they thought that, like, it would just naturally happen.  They – like, we got a text message, and they asked what the password was to log in to the utility account?

Sarah:  Oh?

Amanda:  And I’m like, you need to get that in your name.  We turned off the utilities, so we stopped paying for them.  So they, they had no idea that they had to get the utilities in their own name and pay for it.

Sarah:  Ohhh, dear God.

Amanda:  They’re just little babies that don’t know anything about the world.  [Laughs] And now one of them has a drum set, apparently.

Sarah:  Because that’s just what you want:  assholes with drums.

Amanda:  [Laughs] I know!  But I, there’s nothing I can do, I guess.  They’re just awful, and we try to avoid them as much as possible.

Sarah:  Yep.  And you’re just going to have to, you’re just going to have to continue to adult and hope that they figure it out.

Amanda:  I know.  I texted my roommate about the drums.  Like, so apparently there are drums upstairs now.  She’s like, I will complain.  Like, I will call the cops.

[Laughter]

Amanda:  She’s not joking around.  She, she’s got this weird, like, upstairs room –

Sarah:  You go, girl.

Amanda:  – and she can hear everything.  It’s awful.  [Sighs]

Sarah:  All right.  So you had an idea for a podcast all about the sex.

Amanda:  [Laughs] Yes, I’m, I’m a highly sexed woman, Sarah.

Sarah:  Well, you and Kaliq from The Playboy Sheik’s Virgin Stable-Girl, you and Kaliq are both highly sexed individuals.

Amanda:  Yeah!  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Whereas, you know, he causes the, the weeping and adoration of women wherever he goes, you just go on Tinder and have a good time.

Amanda:  Yeah!  I mean, that’s what my life is all about.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  But you, you are looking at the difference between real life and the romantic ideal –

Amanda:  Oh, yeah!

Sarah:  – and you think there’s, like, a big distance there.

Amanda:  There is.  I mean, I wouldn’t describe any of my interactions with my Tinder dates as romantic necessarily.

Sarah:  Now, for anyone who’s not familiar with Tinder, because someone may be listening and thinking, what’s a Tinder?  What’s a Tinder?

Amanda:  [Laughs] So, Tinder is an app on your phone, and there’s some conflict on whether it’s a dating app or a hookup app.  It’s kind of whatever you make of it?  I’ve, you know, gone on dates, and I’ve used it for hooking up, so it depends.  And it is linked to your Facebook, but that’s only to show, like, if you have mutual friends in common and you use pictures from your Facebook for your profile.  So you pick five or six pictures.  You write, like, a little profile blurb if you want.  Most dudes do not.  They just take a picture of themselves at the gym, and that’s essentially their entire profile.  [Laughs] And you go through, and if you swipe –

Sarah:  Like they look like that all the time?

Amanda:  Yeah!  Essentially.  They’re either holding –

Sarah:  I generally walk around in a pair of shorts, no shirt, holding a dumbbell.

Amanda:  They’re either holding a fish or they’re a selfie.  [Laughs] Those are the only two pictures.

Sarah:  [Laughs] So if romance covers depicted Tinder –

Amanda:  Oh, my God.

Sarah:  – it would be a bunch of shirtless guys holding a fish or in the gym.

Amanda:  Yeah.  No, that’s it.  That’s it.

[Laughter]

Amanda:  And if you like them, you’ll swipe right.

Sarah:  Right.

Amanda:  If you don’t like them, you’ll swipe left.  And if the person has also swiped right – so given you, like, a thumbs up –

Sarah:  Yep.

Amanda:  – on your end, you’ll match, and you’ll be able to chat to each other.

Sarah:  So swiping right is basically saying, yeah, I’d hit that.

Amanda:  Yes, exactly, and I told my mom about this, and I explained it to her, and her response was, oh, I think I saw that on an episode of SVU one time.

Sarah:  [Gasps] Of course you did.

Amanda:  I was like, Mom, don’t compare this dating app to Law and Order:  SVU.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Of course she did, because somebody ended up dead, and it was probably the girl.

Amanda:  Yeah, no, that’s exactly what happened, so.  But my mom gets a kick out of it, actually.  I call her and I talk to her about it.  Usually my dad’s in the background pitching a fit, ‘cause he doesn’t want to hear of any of this.

[Laughter]

Amanda:  But that’s essentially Tinder in a nutshell.  I mean, I haven’t seen many dating apps brought up in romance.  I’m sure, you know, there are a few contemporaries out there that talk about online dating.

Sarah:  There are a few, and sometimes people get hooked up or, you know, somebody builds them a profile and doesn’t tell them and all of a sudden they have all this email.

Amanda:  Oh, my God.

Sarah:  That’s happened a few times.

Amanda:  I would not trust my friends with building my own profile, first of all.

Sarah:  No, I, I think that’s just, I think that leads to disaster.  I also think that it is, it is sometimes less common – I’m trying to think through everything that I’ve read in the past few years, which is why I’m speaking slowly, ‘cause it’s a lot of books, but –

Amanda:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – it is not quite common that I will find a heroine who says, yeah, I really want to meet a guy and get married and have kids.

Amanda:  Yeah.

Sarah:  Like, I would really like to match up with somebody.  Where is my person?  I want to find my person.  There are a few Kristan Higgins her-, heroines who are like, no, I would really like to find a person I’m going to marry and settle down and have a family.  That’s what I want; I just can’t find that person.  But there’s the I don’t have time for a relationship; I’m, I don’t have time for complications; I’m focused on my career.

Amanda:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  That, I, I see that heroine a lot, and I see the guy saying, no, I, I really want to, you know, settle down and raise a family, and I want to find my person, and, you know, no one understands me, ‘cause I’m in touch with my emotions, and –

Amanda:  It’s, it’s strange?

Sarah:  – it’s a, it’s a type of emotional fluency and relationship goal that is very oddly presented in romance a lot of the time.

Amanda:  I mean, I have that goal.  I would like that to happen eventually, but part of the reason why I, you know, took the leap into dating apps or whatever is because I was, I was super busy.  During grad school, we had grad classes from six to ten o’clock at night –

Sarah:  Right.

Amanda:  – which was miserable.  I had a full-time job or an internship.  I was doing stuff for Smart Bitches.  I was doing freelance writing for Book Riot.  Like, I had no time to go out and try to find members of the opposite sex, and if I did go out, like, I wanted to spend time with my friends and socialize and not worry about getting picked up by a dude.  So I was just kind of, like, expediting the process by using this thing?

Sarah:  But also compartmentalizing it.  Like, I, I wish for my hooking up to happen in this context.  I don’t want to get dressed up so that some guy will hit on me when I want to go out with my friends.

Amanda:  Yeah, it’s very, like, it’s – at least my experiences, what I’ve made of it, have been very businesslike, which I like.  It’s like, get, like, when we’re done, leave.  Like, I don’t want you to stay here.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Amanda:  I want you to leave me alone!  [Laughs] You know?  Sometimes a high five is shared, and then I send them on their way, and I – [laughs] – which is what I’m aiming for at the moment.  But you don’t see that in romance.  I, there are heroines who, you know, maybe they’re an escort for their job or, or whatever, but I was thinking of, I think it was The Master where the heroine signs up to be an escort to pay her bills, ‘cause that’s what usually happens, and of course it’s her first time being an escort, so it’s, like, her first client, so, you know, she’s not a highly sexed woman.

Sarah:  She’s not actually a sex worker.

Amanda:  Yes.

Sarah:  I have read very few romances that depict sex workers.  Because there’s, there’s this idea that’s –

Amanda:  Or people who enjoy doing that.

Sarah:  Yes.  There’s this, well, first of all, there’s so much built up that’s negative, so much stigma surrounding sex work, and, you know, if you do have people who are engaged in sex work in a romance, they’re, it’s, it’s for noble cause.

Amanda:  Yeah.

Sarah:  Like their own education or to pay some bills or something.  No one, no one voluntarily does sex work because they’re good at it, it makes a lot of money, and they’re, they’re owning their agency in that way.

Amanda:  I would love to see a heroine who, you know, is, likes having sex and is open to talking about it and, you know, gets it on the regular, and –

[Laughter]

Amanda:  – like, I would just love that, and somehow, you know, she finds someone that she wants to be with, but, you know, still she’s leading her life and getting some when she needs it, and that’s that.  But usually the heroine has hit a dry spell or she’s still a virgin or her scary, scary…

Sarah:  Or she’s given up on men.  Given up on men –

Amanda:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – because something bad happened and she’s giving up on men.

Amanda:  I mean, men are idiots.  [Laughs] Which is why I’m like, leave me alone.  I’m only using you for one purpose.

Sarah:  Now I want to get back to the compartmentalizing of intimacy, but I, I just have to say, I know someone who had a bad experience with a person and has decided that no women are to be trusted.

Amanda:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  And I’m like, you know what?  That person already had that point of view about women before this bad experience happened, because I just cannot accept that every other female who has ever been kind to this person doesn’t count in the face of this one person who did something cruel.

Amanda:  Oh, no!  But –

Sarah:  Sh-, that person just totally confirmed his misogyny.

Amanda:  Yes, definitely.  I mean, whether or not he realizes that we’re all cruel, coldblooded lizard people, but some of us – [laughs]

Sarah:  I mean, I am.  I, I am regularly.

Amanda:  I’m from Florida, so I definitely am.

Sarah:  Of course you are.  So you’ve compartmentalized sex and intimacy –

Amanda:  Yes.

Sarah:  – into a very convenient option where if you would like to have sex, that’s a thing that happens, and then it’s over and you can go do your other things.  It’s not something that has to be built on a relationship.

Amanda:  It’s like a chore that, you know, like, I tick off my to-do list.

Sarah:  But it’s a nice chore.

Amanda:  It’s a, it can be a very nice chore.

[Laughter]

Sarah:  How do you see the rel-, your relationships in real life being affected or influenced by the romance that you read?  Is this just a, two sep-, totally separate compartments?

Amanda:  I would say it didn’t used to be.  I, I would describe myself as a serial monogamist, so I was definitely one of those people who had long-term relationships for a year or more, and then whatever would happen, and we would break up and, you know, romance has that fantasy to it –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Amanda:  – where you find your soulmate and, you know, the stars align, and you feel all those nice, fuzzy feelings and fireworks, and I don’t – like, yes, that’s nice, and I would like that and that’s great, but it got to a point where after my last relationship, you know, I don’t, I didn’t know if I wanted another relationship so soon.  I was tired of getting into one serious relationship after another.  I didn’t have the typical college experience where I partied, and, you know, I experimented and, you know, had one-night stands.  That was never part of my experience –

Sarah:  Right.

Amanda:  – so I was like, well, shit.  Like, why not now?

[Laughter]

Amanda:  And so sometimes it would be nice to have that meet-cute moment where you meet someone at a bookstore or on the T.  I have a friend who just got engaged, and she met her fiancé at a bus stop, and –

Sarah:  Aw!

Amanda:  – he drew her a picture of the bus stop where they met, and it’s framed in her apartment, and they’re the cutest couple.  So that sort of romance-y thing exists.  I –

Sarah:  It does.

Amanda:  It does!  But I’ve kind of, I wouldn’t say you’re immature if you think that exists, but I’ve matured to a point where I don’t always equate sex with love.  You know, lust exists.

Sarah:  And it’s easier, it’s, it’s easier for you to separate the emotional connection and the sexual connection into separate things.

Amanda:  Yeah, it’s definitely helpful if I have a great conversation and a great rapport with the person, and not all the time, like, I, I will go out, and sometimes it doesn’t lead to anything; we just have a nice time and that’s it.

Sarah:  Right.

Amanda:  I went out for coffee with a guy who was in Boston for a wedding, and he was on his way out to drive home back to Baltimore, and we got coffee for thirty minutes, and then he left.  Like, nothing else was, happened.

Sarah:  Right.

Amanda:  But it, it’s, I don’t know, it’s very strange, I guess, but if I don’t have a good conversation, like, if there’s not that interest there, I probably wouldn’t sleep with them.  Aside from the Republican, which was a whole different deal.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  So what’s the, so, this is something you do.  You nickname the people that you have Tinder conversations with.

Amanda:  I do.  I do nickname them.

Sarah:  So it’s almost like making them characters.

Amanda:  Yeah, it is!  They have a certain set of traits, and that’s usually where the nickname comes from, or it might come from their job.  It just helps – I’m not saying that I’m sleeping with hundreds of people, but it helps me keep them straight, ‘cause sometimes they’ll have the same name as someone else.  There’re a lot of dudes, like, named Josh and Michael in Boston.  [Laughs] So –

Sarah:  You know, this is a generational thing.  There’re a lot of Joshes and Michaels for you; for me, it was Matthew, Sean, and then Jennifer and Sarah.  Like –

Amanda:  There are Matts.  Yeah.

Sarah:  – there were four Sarahs in my class.

Amanda:  There were eight Amandas in my P.E. class one year, and I wanted –

Sarah:  Yep, I’m sure!  It’s a generational thing.

Amanda:  It’s horrible.  It’s just –

Sarah:  So you nickname people.

Amanda:  Yes, I do.  And you’ve helped.  A lot of the Smart Bitches have helped me come up with some names.  So there’s the Republican, and based on that name I’m sure you can guess his political leanings.

Sarah:  Uh, yeah.

Amanda:  [Laughs] I’m a very liberal person.  I was part of the, like, feminist club in my undergrad.  That was a very strange relationship arrangement.  And there’s Fine Butt Brett.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  So there’s the Republican and Fine Butt Brett.

Amanda:  I think he, Find Butt Brett had the first nickname, I feel like.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Amanda:  I feel like he, he is the one who started it.  And it’s self explanatory; he has one of the best butts I have ever seen on a man ever.  You could bounce several quarters off it.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  So, for you, you have nicknames, they – you’re almost making them into characters.

Amanda:  Yeah!  And that, that’s, probably also helps with the compartmentalizing a little bit?

Sarah:  Right, because they’re characters that exist in this one purpose.

Amanda:  Yes.

Sarah:  And, so is it true for you that at this time, for you, in this particular setup, sex is easier than relationships.

Amanda:  Oh, definitely.  [Laughs] It’s way easier.

Sarah:  And it’s funny, because you know as, as women, we’re, we’re informed that, you know, you’re not supposed to have sex without a relationship.

Amanda:  Ugh.

Sarah:  You’re not supposed to have sex without it being meaningful.  You, you can’t just give it away, and in your perspective, sex is a lot easier to, to navigate than relationships with people.

Amanda:  Oh, definitely!  I mean, I think of, like, Amy Schumer giving her speech for, I think it was, like, the Glamour Women of the Year, and she’s like, I weigh 160, and I can catch a dick whenever I want.  Like –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Amanda:  That’s how I feel!  Like, sex, I wouldn’t say shouldn’t be hard, but it, it isn’t that difficult if you feel like it’s something that’s important to you.  I’m a huge stress ball of a person, and I feel like sex is, like, a really good stress relief for me.  Some people do yoga.  I like to have sex.  And it’s just really convenient, and I also grew up in a household where sex was never a taboo topic.  My mom is very open.  I remember – [laughs] – we were cleaning out her bedroom, I was helping her, and, you know, we’re going through all of her shit that she had accumulated, and I’m like, hey, Mom?  Where do you want me to put your sex swing?  And she’s like, oh, just put it in the closet.  Meanwhile, my dad is turning purple with how embarrassed he is, but –

[Laughter]

Amanda:  Like, turning into a human grape, but I’ve just, I think that also has something to do with it.  I was, I was never taught that it was a, a shameful thing or something that was –

Sarah:  So you were raised with a healthy perspective on sexuality to begin with.

Amanda:  Oh, yeah.  I mean, I remember finding my mom’s, like, weird The Joy of Sex book from the 1970s, and then just everyone is hairy and the illustrations are awful.  Like – [laughs]

Sarah:  Everyone has a beard in that book, too.

Amanda:  Yes, even the women.

Sarah:  Like, all the men are bearded.  Very, very bearded.

Amanda:  [Laughs] So it was just, I don’t know, it was never – I, I grew up in Florida, so our public school system isn’t amazing, and I, I think I had sex ed once, and that was in fourth grade, and never again, so I was very thankful that my mom was open to talking about it, and I, you know, sometimes after a pretty fun weekend I’ll call my mom and brag about it, and –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Amanda:  – she thinks it’s hilarious.  So – [laughs] – she’s always very proud of me.

Sarah:  But that’s also, that’s, that’s the, that’s the type of relationship you have with your mom.

Amanda:  She’s proud when I get laid, she’s proud when I get tattooed, she’s –

[Laughter]

Amanda:  – like, my mom.  So.

Sarah:  So not only do you have this, this, this particular kind of relationship with your parent, but you have this outlook on sexuality that it is a natural thing to have desire, and it’s okay to go find desire –

Amanda:  Yeah!

Sarah:  – in the area in which you would like.

Amanda:  Definitely, and I would, I would love to see that reflected in romance.  It, the genre is a very, you know, freeing thing.  It’s like, you know, people finding their sexual agency is great, and that, you know, they’re having their sexual awakening, but sometimes I would like characters to already have that awakening or that epiphany that, hey, sex is fun, and it’s enjoyable, and I don’t always have to have it with the one person that I’m going to spend the rest of my life with.

Sarah:  And it’s interesting, the way in which the complete opposite set of sexual values is imposed on romance, a lot of the time, I think, by readers.  You’ll hear a lot more about heroines who are sexually liberated being unappealing –

Amanda:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – and that if the hero sleeps with someone else during the course of the story, readers don’t like that.  And –

Amanda:  Yeah, it’s –

Sarah:  – if the, if the heroine sleeps with somebody else, whoa.

Amanda:  I don’t, see, I don’t, I can’t remember if I’ve read any like that.  Noth-, nothing is sticking out to me –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Amanda:  – but I don’t, I personally don’t think I would be bothered, but I can understand where it’s coming from.  I know that, referencing The Master again, even though the hero, get, buys the heroine as an escort for the night, he gets, like, really pissed off.  She tells him that it’s, it’s her first night doing this, and he’s like, well, that’s bullshit.  You’re just feeding me a line, and clearly you’ve been doing this with God knows how many men, and like, do you realize you, you bought an escort whose job it is to sleep with other people?  So it’s –

Sarah:  And the virginity, it’s almost like virginity is both a fetish and a requirement in a lot of ways in, in, in, and it’s residually a requirement in the genre.  Like, I am totally fine with women in books who have had sex with other people, or are having sex with other people in –

Amanda:  Yeah!

Sarah:  – in the course of the book, but there is still, there are some amazing pieces of acrobatic –

Amanda:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – plot manipulation to create virginity for a heroine.  I mean, if you want to see some serious, gold medal, Olympic-class –

[Laughter]

Sarah:  – gymnastics, go look at Harlequin Presents, because there is, there are, there are, there are heroines who are virgins, and I just don’t understand how it happened that way.

Amanda:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Like, there was one I was reading where the hero is horribly upset because he, he thinks that his widowed stepmother who was married to his father is a horrible gold digger, and later on in – it’s, it’s in the cover copy that she’s got purity, like, of some sort, and I’m like, so she never banged him ever ever, not even once, so he, she’s, she’s pure for the hero, and I’m like, why, why?  Why?  Why is this happening?

Amanda:  That’s, like, that’s a T-shirt waiting to happen –

Sarah:  Why is this happening?

Amanda:  – Ask me about my purity.  Oh, my God.  I understand why virginity is, I don’t know, attractive to a plot device.  Like, being the person’s first, like, the only guy to have experienced this woman, but I feel like most of the time, the act of losing your virginity is a very unsexy process.  [Laughs] My first time was, I, like – it wasn’t horrible, but I remember the setting.  It was my high school boyfriend, and we were in his bedroom, and it was painted lime green.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Amanda:  Like, there were no rose petals or, like, soft silk sheets.  A lime green bedroom surrounded by heavy metal posters.

Sarah:  Ooh, that’s hot.

Amanda:  So I had, like, Metallica looking down on me.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Ah.

Amanda:  Like, while this was happening.  And I also read a, a book recently, Come As You Are.  It’s nonfiction, and it’s about sexuality, especially for women.  I would, I’m recommending this book to everyone I know, and it talks about the myths of women’s sexuality, and one of the chapters, they talk about the hymen –

Sarah:  Oh, God.

Amanda:  – changed my life, and I actually brought this up on a Tinder date, and I think I made the guy uncomfortable talking about hymens over beers.

[Laughter]

Amanda:  But the act of, like, breaking through the hymen and how in romance, you know, there’s blood on the sheets or there’s some kind of signifier –

Sarah:  And it’s halfway up the valley.

Amanda:  Yes.

Sarah:  Yeah.  We’ve, we’ve been over that.

Amanda:  That, usually when blood happens, that’s not really from the hymen?  Like, the hymen doesn’t bleed?  That, it’s mostly the girl’s body isn’t accustomed to this, and, you know, she’s stretching or something is ripped, probably.  So it’s not from the hymen – [laughs] – which I thought was crazy, ‘cause this whole time you, as women we expect there to be, like, oh, there’s going to be, like, a slight pinch of pain and there might be some blood and – neither of those happened for me, personally, but – so, I mean that book is amazing, and it, reading romance novels and then reading this book, there’s such a, a difference with what –

[Laughter]

Amanda:  – with how, like, authors romanticize certain sexual things, and then, like, the actual biological processes behind it?

Sarah:  One of the things that I love about the book A Lady Awakened by Cecilia Grant is that sex is present from the very beginning, because the whole point of these two characters being together is that she is trying to get pregnant so that a horrible human being does not inherit her late husband’s estate.

Amanda:  I like, I like the way she thinks.

Sarah:  Right, and –

Amanda:  It’s like a business thing.

Sarah:  Well, it’s very much a business thing.  Basically, the setup of the book is this woman has become widowed, her husband was, you know, an alcoholic who drank himself into a rather early death, who was not particularly a wonderful steward of his estate, and so she was in, doing a lot of it, and when her husband dies, some of the servants explain to her that the person who stands to inherit has never visited while she was there because her husband hated him.  They didn’t have children, and the person who inherits, the last time he was there, he raped a housemaid, he –

Amanda:  Oh, my God.

Sarah:  – he’s a horrible, horrible human being, and they’re like, if, if he comes we have to leave; it’s not safe.  And this attorney says, you know, but we can’t, we cannot move forward because, you know, you could, you could be pregnant, and the woman’s like, we haven’t had sex in, like, five years, so –

Amanda:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – nope, pretty sure I’m not, and he’s like, no, you could be pregnant, and we need to make sure that there is no heir.  And she’s like, ohhh!  So the –

Amanda:  I’m picturing him, like, doing the wink, like, you could be pregnant – wink!

Sarah:  Well, he’s very old and very uncomfortable, and it’s, like, the most awkward conversation ever –

Amanda:  [Laughs] Aw!

Sarah:  – but the hero is this young man who’s been sent to his family’s estate nearby because he’s just basically, you know, young.  He spends too much on a cravat, and he buys expensive things that his dad has to pay for, and his dad’s pissed about it, and he has to go and learn how to be a grownup, and so she approaches him and says, all right, here’s the deal:  I want you to, I want you to have sex with me every day for a month.  We’re going to take you up the back stairs, you’ll come in my bedroom, bang me –

Amanda:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – and we’re done, thanks very much!  And he’s like, okay!  You’re going to pay me to bang you?  Like, seriously?  Okay!

Amanda:  Sign me up.

Sarah:  I am here for this!  But then eventually it becomes more difficult for him, because she is looking at this as a completely passionless physical transaction to save the people who depend on her estate for their livelihoods, and he’s like, this isn’t fun; you’re not into this, and she’s like, why would I be into it?  Like, why?  I am here to get pregnant; I’m not here to enjoy this.  And so he has to pretend to, that, that she’s responding, he has to imagine that she’s responding, but what I love about the structure of that book is that sex isn’t the tension.  Intimacy is the tension.  Sex is always there; they’ve, they’re banging the whole time, because they have to be for the construct of the plot.  The intimacy is built on something else, and one of the reasons why I don’t always enjoy erotic romance as a reader is because I am much more interested in emotional intimacy than physical intimacy, and a lot of times the way that erotic romance is written, I think that the emotional intimacy follows right behind the sexual intimacy because they’re connected, but the explanation of why they’re connected isn’t fully explained, and it’s the explanation that I want.  So, like, just because he’s got the biggest dick you’ve ever seen, he gives you great orgasms, and you can’t stop thinking about him, does not mean that you have an emotional connection; it means that you really like his, his dick.

Amanda:  Yes.

Sarah:  And so I, I want the emotional intimacy, and I want to read about the emotional connection between two characters, and sex does not have to be there for that to be present.

Amanda:  I need sex in my books, so I don’t think I could ever –

Sarah:  Not have sex in your books?  Yep.

Amanda:  Yeah!  Just –

Sarah:  When you have a romance heroine, it, it, it’s almost as if the world, for you, it’s almost as if the world of romance is pretty far removed from your real life.

Amanda:  Oh, definitely.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Even though that’s a thing.

Amanda:  Definitely.  I mean, we did a previous podcast on New Adult, and I talked about, a lot of my issue with New Adult is it’s a university, college-type setting, and a lot of the experiences that the heroine or hero has in this college setting don’t mirror my own at all.  Or, like, they might, but we might have had too different ways of dealing with it, and it just, it’s hard to, I guess, get into it when my experiences were almost the exact opposite of whatever they’re going through.  My romance, or my love life that I have now is definitely not reflected in anything that I’ve read so far.  Which is really strange.  I’ve had, this has come up on dates before, ‘cause, you know, we talk about what do you do for work?  And what are your hobbies?

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Amanda:  And, like, I, I –

Sarah:  That’s always a fun conversation.

Amanda:  I know.  Like, I read, well, it’s in my Tinder profile that I read books for a living; that’s what I do.

Sarah:  Right.

Amanda:  And they’re like, what?  How do you do that?

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Amanda:  And I’m like, I read books with lots of kissing and sex.  I read, like, I mainly read romance novels.  I could read whatever I want, but this is usually what I steer myself towards.  And it does bring up a lot of interesting responses about how my dates see that, I guess.  The good responses are that they think that I’m amazing in the sack because I read all these books, as if I’m studying it and taking notes about – [laughs] – about what I can do in the bedroom.  So they think that I, I would be good at sex because I read romance novels, so –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – there’s that.  But then they also, there’s, you know, the crazy, love-obsessed woman stigma as well, that I read about, you know, a woman finding her true love and spending the rest of her life with her soulmate and that there’s no way that I could have, like, a casual attachment, that as soon as we go out, I’m going to be picking out our baby names.  Which – [laughs] – never happens.

Sarah:  Yeah.

Amanda:  It’s like, don’t think so highly of yourself, guy.

Sarah:  Well, it’s also, that’s a message that, that, that is, that is so pervasive.  Women want respectability and want to deny men sex until they have achieved their goal, and men are supposed to try to get sex without giving women that goal, which is this connection, relationship, permanent attachment.

Amanda:  Yes.

Sarah:  It’s like that song, “Stay the Night.”  It doesn’t mean that we’re stuck together for the rest of our lives.

Amanda:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Just, we can just, we could just bang.  It, it’s fine.

Amanda:  Yes, exactly.

Sarah:  Like, that is a, that is still very much, in a lot of ways, especially in romance, a very new message.

Amanda:  Like, I’m sorry, guy, I, I just, I was overwhelmed by your gym selfie and, like, I need to have you put a baby in me immediately.

Sarah:  [Laughs] I want to have your babies.

Amanda:  ‘Cause I want our kids to have your triceps.  Like –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Amanda:  – this is not, it’s not how it works!

Sarah:  So have you met any guys on Tinder that are actually looking for relationships?

Amanda:  Yes, actually.  So, the Governor, he was one that I –

Sarah:  Not, okay, like, we need to clarify.

Amanda:  [Laughs]

Together:  He’s not –

Sarah:  – actually the governor of a state.

Amanda:  He’s not a governor, and it’s not related to the horrible character in The Walking Dead.

Sarah:  Okay.

Amanda:  He was just kind of tied to the political scene in Boston, but he’s not in politics.  But we, we saw each other off and on for, I think, three months or so, and, you know, I would, we didn’t, like, have sex until, like, the fourth or fifth date, and he was very nice.  Just a little boring for my taste.  So there are people who are looking for relationships, definitely, but there are people who are not, which is, I think it’s skewed more towards people looking for something more casual or fun than something serious, though.  I’ve met a few people who actually met their boyfriends or their girlfriends on Tinder, and they’ve been dating for months, so it’s kind of what you make of it.  And I’m sure a few of the people that I’ve gone out with, I wouldn’t mind kind of doing something regularly or doing something normal like going to a movie or, or whatever with them.

Sarah:  ‘Cause when you meet someone with, when you meet someone in person after having talked with them on Tinder, presumption on both parts, on, for both parties is that later on, you’re going to bang.

Amanda:  Hopefully.

Sarah:  Or you just meet to do so.

Amanda:  Yeah.  Or you just, yeah, you just cut out the middle man and don’t even bother –

[Laughter]

Amanda:  – going out for a drink.  Yeah, it happens, so I wouldn’t say nine times out of ten I go into thinking that.  You can kind of get a sense talking to them beforehand what they’re looking for, and most of the times it works out.

Sarah:  And whether or not you have chemistry with them.

Amanda:  Yeah, like sometimes you just don’t, and it’s awful, though I will say I have been pretty lucky and I haven’t had a horrible Tinder experience yet.  I’ve had some boring ones, but none of them have been –

Sarah:  Like, awful.

Amanda:  Yeah.  Like, no.  Definitely not!  No!  Everyone I’ve met has been pretty cool, actually, so.

Sarah:  Well, if the, if the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect the same results, then it seems to me that trying something new where you open up the possibility of connecting with new people, even if it’s not for the purposes of a relationship –

Amanda:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – will absolutely introduce you to a larger group of people who you might never have encountered otherwise that allows you to meet people who may become your friend –

Amanda:  It is –

Sarah:  – or your friend with benefits or someone you can call and be like, hey!  You want to come over for an hour?

Amanda:  Yeah!

Sarah:  To “watch Netflix?”

Amanda:  [Laughs] Netflix and chill?

Sarah:  I, I feel like someone needs to manipulate the Netflix logo so that it says something like, will fuck.

[Laughter]

Amanda:  So if you look at it from one side it’s something different?

Sarah:  Yeah.  Netflix – let’s bang.

[Laughter]

Amanda:  I have learned, though, that using Tinder has turned me kind of like into a Yes woman, where I’m opening myself up to new experiences.  Like, I, I hate horror movies, but I was out with a guy, and he was telling me about this horror movie that he heard about on NPR called It Follows, and he’s like, it’s actually playing in 45 minutes.  We were out getting a drink.  He’s like, it’s playing in 45 minutes at the theater; do you want to go see it?

Sarah:  Okay!

Amanda:  And, like, yeah, let’s jump!  Let’s do it!

Sarah:  So it makes you, it makes you open to trying things that you, if you thought about it for a while, you’d probably talk yourself out of.

Amanda:  Yeah, but in the moment, you know, having a good time, sure.  Let’s do it; why not?

Sarah:  Do you think that being on Tinder, and I, and I’m not asking this in a way that implies that you’re, I don’t think you’re deceiving anyone or you’re being disingenuous in any way at all.  Like, I want to make that clear, but –

Amanda:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – when you’re with somebody that you’ve met on Tinder, are you also, to a certain extent, creating a character for yourself?

Amanda:  I would say that I’m funnier online or on an app –

Sarah:  That’s true of a lot of people.

Amanda:  – than I am in real life.

[Laughter]

Amanda:  I feel like that’s how, I don’t know, I have a way of, I guess, crafting my personalities?  But I, I don’t know.  I hope not, but – well, okay, so I had a guy over last Thursday, I think, if I’m keeping my days straight, Thursday?  This was, this was Tall Balls.  [Laughs] I think, so – there’s nothing wrong with his stuff, by the way, listeners.  He’s just very tall –

Sarah:  Right.

Amanda:  – and he works in an industry that deals with sports, so.

Sarah:  Okay.

Amanda:  And he was a men’s volleyball player, so Tall Balls.

Sarah:  Tall Balls, okay.

Amanda:  Yeah!

Sarah:  That’s a perfectly acceptable name.

Amanda:  Yeah, he’s, like, 6’4”.

Sarah:  Dude.  You could climb him like a tree.

Amanda:  And I did.

Sarah:  Yay!

Amanda:  [Laughs] But he came over, and we talked for, like, an hour and a half, maybe, and he was laughing at all of my jokes, and so I’m like, yeah, I’m actually pretty funny!

[Laughter]

Sarah:  In person!

Amanda:  In person!  So there’s always that fear that as charming and winsome as I am on Tinder, it won’t translate in person?

Sarah:  But you’re still being a part of yourself.

Amanda:  Yeah, definitely!  I mean, I still tell the same stupid jokes; I still curse like a sailor.  Like, I don’t try to temper my personality or, or anything like that, but I definitely think that I, I am a little funnier and more charming – [laughs] – when I’m not face to face with someone.

Sarah:  Oh, I think that’s true.

Amanda:  ‘Cause it takes that pressure off.

Sarah:  Yeah, I think that’s true of a lot of people, because when you’re physically standing in the same space as someone, that can be very anxiety-filled for people.

Amanda:  Yes.

Sarah:  Like, being in the presence of another person can be very over-stimulating and very disorienting for people, let alone standing in a crowd of a few dozen or a few hundred people.  Like, I hate crowds.  I can’t hear –

Amanda:  I hate ‘em.

Sarah:  – the people I’m talking to.  I can’t see the exit.  All I can think of is, God, can I go home and not wear shoes.

Amanda:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Maybe not a bra, either.  Like, this, this sucks.  And I, and I don’t like parties, and I don’t like large gatherings, so, you know, that would make me anxious and supremely not funny.  But online, I don’t have to deal with that stimulation at all.  I can just talk, you know?

Amanda:  I think my main concern is more of, like, a physical level?  Because on any online profile, you want to pick the most flattering fucking pictures that you have.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Ah, yeah, you take that selfie, like, twelve or thirteen times.

Amanda:  Yeah.

Sarah:  But it’s also –

Amanda:  You make sure you get your angles right.

Sarah:  Right!

Amanda:  You know what your best lighting is.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  But you also want to pick out the image that you feel best represents you.  Because –

Amanda:  Yeah, so I have one in, like, me double-fisting a couple drinks –

Sarah:  Yep.

Amanda:  – so it’s accurate.  [Laughs] I’m like, another one, me at a sports game, which is accurate.  But they’re all well-taken, well-crafted photos.  But I also put in my profile that, like, I’m five feet tall, so if you’re looking at my pictures and you’re thinking that I’m going to be some leggy brunette –

Sarah:  No.

Amanda:  – you are SOL.  I am –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Amanda:  – short as shit.  So it’s, that’s my main fear, I suppose, is, I could be very charming in terms of conversation, conversation and personality, but when it comes to meeting someone, I, maybe physically I could be a disappointment or not what they’re expecting.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Amanda:  That being said, it has yet to pose a problem – [laughs] – with my results at the end of the night.  So –

Sarah:  And in the, in the, and in the Tinder context, you are presenting your actual self, just the best version of your actual self.

Amanda:  Yes, the, hopefully the most desirable version of myself.

Sarah:  So when you sign on to Tinder, is there something that you’re looking for?  Does it have anything to do with the heroes that you like to read about?  Or are those two really separate worlds that don’t overlap at all?

Amanda:  Yes and no.  I’m into the, the lumbersexual look, so bearded, definitely a little broad in the shoulders, looks like someone could just hurl a tree trunk.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Or rip a tree trunk in half?

Amanda:  Yes.  Like, I enjoy that look as well.  But I also like, you know, the tattooed sort of looking guys, and I like blue collar heroes.  Like, one of my catnips is kind of, this is going to sound like I’m totally inserting myself into the romance, but I love the type A, workaholic heroine and kind of like the blue collar, works-with-his-hands hero.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Cool!

Amanda:  Like, I would, personally, I would love to find a guy who is just, like, a mountain man and works with his hands and, you know, likes being outdoors, even though that’s not really, it doesn’t overlap with what I do for a living or, or anything like that.

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Amanda:  So it varies, but, you know, I’m an equal-opportunity appreciator of men, so I’m not going to limit myself to, I guess, just one subset.  And then I, I found that sometimes the guys that I find to be really attractive and really pretty are dumb as a box of rocks, and I can’t.  Like, if there’s a spelling mistake in your profile or you can’t string together a sentence with proper grammar and punctuation, I’m not –

Sarah:  You’re not interested.

Amanda:  Yeah, ‘cause I’m not, I’m not emotionally stimulated to carry on a conversation with you.

Sarah:  Right, so it’s not just, hey, you’re pretty, let’s bang.  There are other things at work in creating the connection that you’re looking for.

Amanda:  Yes.  Even though if it’s not, like, a love connection, there’s definitely, there has to be some kind of conversational connection first.

Sarah:  So are there books that have, you’ve read that have all touched near this, the experience that you have, or do you, are you just sort of used to, these are very separate worlds, and it’s interesting that this one depiction of women is so different from the, from the life that I am leading, but they’re separate, and that’s just how it is?  Does romance –

Amanda:  For me –

Sarah:  – does, does romance as a genre seem – the sexual politics of romance, do they seem sort of out of touch with your reality or, or old-fashioned, given how, given your perspective?

Amanda:  I would say yes.  Romance has this weird way of being very progressive in some ways, but also very backwards in some ways, I feel like.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Yes.  Yes, yes, yes, it does.

Amanda:  For, so, my experience is, I have yet to be mirrored, or, or even my viewpoints on sex as a woman in the twenty-first century have yet to be mirrored in a romance that I’ve read yet.  So, writers, authors, you want to do me a solid and get on that?

[Laughter]

Sarah:  And yet I can, I can hear authors saying, if I wrote a heroine who had the attitude towards sex that you do, it would never get published, or if it was published, it would reach an audience many of whom would be like, I didn’t like her; she was unreadable; she was a slut.

Amanda:  I would be the only buyer of your book.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  I don’t think you’d be the only one, no, but I think the audience would struggle with a heroine who was as cognizant and possessing of her own sexual agency.

Amanda:  Which is so – sometimes it just boggles my mind.  I don’t know.  Romance is full of badass ladies:  characters, readers, authors –

Sarah:  Yep.

Amanda:  – but there’s – I mean, everyone has different attitudes and opinions on sex.  I’m not saying that mine is the one that everyone should have.

Sarah:  No, it’s the one that works for you.  But there’s also the –

Amanda:  I would just like to –

Sarah:  Go ahead.

Amanda:  – see it reflected.  Like, everyone would like to see certain things about themselves reflected in romance.  I just haven’t seen this aspect of my personal identity reflected so far.

Sarah:  I, I also think that in a lot of ways, the idea of there being a one with whom you are going to live happily ever after, or there is a person who is your most best partner at this, in, in the context of this book, there’s a person for that person, right?

Amanda:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  Virginity is high-, highly, highly linked to that.  There has to be something that sets them apart, you know, so that, that’s, that specialness is, often includes sexuality.  Like, oh, my God, you’re the only person who makes me orgasm with penetrative sex, and oh, my gosh.

Amanda:  Which is stupid, ‘cause that – I mean –

[Laughter]

Amanda:  – for me to talk –

Sarah:  Please tell me how you feel about that.  It seems like you’re a little ambivalent.

Amanda:  I’m, it goes for most women that it’s hard for most women to orgasm from penetrative sex.  It’s – [laughs] – it is so difficult!  And so I get, like, a little salty about it when a heroine, like, has four orgasms in a row from penetrative sex.  I’m like, this doesn’t happen.  Like –

[Laughter]

Amanda:  – this, I mean, most of the time, like, it’s really, really hard for women to get off from just standard D in the P action.  Like –

[More laughing]

Amanda:  It just makes me so angry, but I get that’s part of the whole, you’re the one because clearly you’re the only one who can give me an orgasm from standard sex, and you don’t have to do anything extra.

Sarah:  There are, yeah, there’re a lot of tangents in that motif that bug the hell out of me, like the guy who can magically detect that a person is a natural submissive –

Amanda:  Ugh.

Sarah:  – and that the reason they’re not sexually satisfied is because they haven’t had him introduce them into this world.

Amanda:  Yeah, no.  Mm-mm.

Sarah:  Ugh.

Amanda:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Right, because he knows her body, but the idea in – and this, this is very true for me as a reader – the idea that the hero knows the heroine’s body more than she does on some magical, intimate, telekinetic level bugs the hell out of me.

Amanda:  Yeah.  No.

Sarah:  Now on one hand, it worked for me really well in, for example, The Year We Fell Down by Sarina Bowen.  The heroine is a paraplegic, and the hero is focused on her having the confidence to try sex after she’s lost feeling from her, like, from her hips down, and he even does research about it, and then, you know, he buys a vibrator.  Like, he does research about it because he’s convinced that she’s shutting off a part of herself, and he wants to help her, but it’s not like, all right, just hold still, I know what to do.

Amanda:  Yeah.  Any, any hero that does research is –

Sarah:  That’s hot.

Amanda:  Yes.

Sarah:  That’s very, very hot, and –

Amanda:  I think it was in The Deal by Elle Kennedy.  The – so this is one of the few New Adult books that has rape as a backstory that I really, really enjoyed, because the heroine has kind of come to terms with it, and when she tells the hero, he’s obviously pissed off and hurt and how could this happen to her, and she’s just like, dude, calm down.  Like, this is something that I’ve come to terms with.  It’s, it happened.  We’re just going to have to deal with it.  Like –

[Laughter]

Amanda:  But she has a problem having sex because of her trauma, so instead of kind of, you know, the hero being like, well, I know what you need.  Let’s just, like, take it slow, or it’ll be different with me sort of thing.

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.  I know what to do.

Amanda:  Yes.

Sarah:  I know exactly how to talk to your body.

Amanda:  He kind of, like, eases her into being sexual again by, like, starting, I think they, if I remember correctly, they, like, masturbate?  So I was like, this is kind of cool, like, the way that they’re kind of adapting their sex life to accommodate for this until she feels more comfortable having regular sex again.

Sarah:  Right.

Amanda:  Definitely –

Sarah:  And I think for a lot of people, part of the fantasy is that this guy will know everything, this guy knows everything, and you don’t have to do anything to, to achieve satisfaction and happiness with this person.

Amanda:  No.  I repeat, guys are idiots.  Like –

Sarah:  [Laughs] So how much of the lead do you take when you hook up with somebody?  Like, are you pretty vocal about, hey, no, no, no, that doesn’t work.  Try this.

Amanda:  No, I’m usually pretty vocal.  Like, I’ll tell them what positions I prefer.  Like, if something’s not working for me, I, I will usually let them know.

Sarah:  Has anyone been bothered that, by that?

Amanda:  No.  I had a boyfriend, actually, who was bothered by that.

Sarah:  Really!  Who didn’t like that you –

Amanda:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – spoke up about what you wanted?

Amanda:  Yeah.  He didn’t – this might be TMI for everyone, but I have no shame at all, clearly – [laughs] – he didn’t like me on top.  He didn’t like me in, like, a power position, I guess.  He was very bothered by that.  We could never have sex that way.  That was a no-no.

Sarah:  Huh.

Amanda:  So any sort of me taking control – and I’m not, I wouldn’t say, like, I’m a, the dominant or the aggressor in the bedroom usually, but any sort of position that put me in a more powerful position or where I can control things more, like the speed or the pace, he was not, not about that at all.

Sarah:  That’s really odd.

Amanda:  Yeah.

Sarah:  And very unfortunate.

Amanda:  Yeah.  Well, it was –

Sarah:  He’s going to have a boring sex life.

Amanda:  [Laughs] But so far, the people that I’ve seen or whatever are pretty into it.  I mean, no one’s complained.

Sarah:  So, so no one that you have met is operating with the same perspective that, you know, he should know everything and, and, and should not be open to taking any instruction.

Amanda:  No, not at all, and I’ve had some guys who were like, hey, why don’t we try this?  I’m like, that’s a good idea.  Like, it’s, like, a great brainstorming session?

[Laughter]

Amanda:  Like I said, I haven’t had a bad experience, actually, and the peop-, sometimes, you know, the sex is boring, and then I never have to see them again, so.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Yep.

Amanda:  That’s the benefit of it.  Like, we just go our separate ways, and we never talk to each other.  And Boston’s big enough that you’d probably never run into them –

Sarah:  You won’t run into them anyway.

Amanda:  – [laughs] – ever again anyway.

Sarah:  So you mentioned that, you know, there’s some ways in which romance is really progressive, and there’s some ways in which romance is very, very not.

Amanda:  Yeah.

Sarah:  But you also said to me that you’ve learned all sorts of sexual things from reading romance.

Amanda:  Oh, yeah.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  So that has informed in a positive way.

Amanda:  Definitely!  I mean, there – it’s not like I keep a running list where I write notes like, oh, yep, going to try that, you know.

Sarah:  You don’t, you don’t name the technique after the book you read it in?

Amanda:  [Laughs] No!

Sarah:  This is the Passion’s Flower:  hold still.

Amanda:  [Laughs] There’re just some cool things that happen in, in romance, and like, yeah, I would try that, but then there are some things it’s like, well, that’s going on my definite no list.  I remember, so, I read Finding Master Right.  I love BDSM erotica.  I’m always looking for new authors, and I just, I think it’s kind of interesting how certain authors approach that community, whether it’s good or bad or, or whatever.  But in that book, the heroine is curious about the community.  She doesn’t know anything about it, so her friend who is into BDSM is kind of trying to play matchmaker –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Amanda:  – to help her find someone who can teach her some things.  Not necessarily give her, like, a Dom, but to find someone who could ease her into it and teach her the, the language and how to conduct herself and whether this is something she truly wants to explore.

Sarah:  Right.

Amanda:  And the hero is not someone who’s like, oh, she’s clearly a submissive, which I appreciated, but – I can’t remember the name of the term for this, and I’m kicking myself that I can’t – but she, I think she either texts him or calls him at work, and she’s like, what does this mean?  And he kind of loses it a little bit, like, he laughs at her, because what the actual thing is, is you take a ginger root and you –

Sarah:  Oh, God.

Amanda:  – and you peel it so you have, like –

Sarah:  This was in Fifty Shades.  He wanted to envision her with a peeled ginger root in her ass.

Amanda:  Yes, exactly, ‘cause it stings or something?  I can’t remember the name of it.  I want to say it starts with an F, but I was like, that’s something that I will never want to do, ever, so.  [Laughs] But it’s just like those weird things that you read about in romance.

Sarah:  That would be called figging.

Amanda:  Yes, yes, thank you.

Sarah:  So wait, this just, just changed my entire perception of figgy pudding.

Amanda:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  So when someone is singing a Christmas carol about bring me some figgy pudding –

Amanda:  Say no.  Just –

Sarah:  – that could mean something entirely different.

Amanda:  Just hard pass on the figgy pudding.

Sarah:  Yeah, we should not be bringing any figgy pudding.

Amanda:  So, I mean, you’ll read about stuff, especially in erotica, some weird stuff happens in the bedroom.  But, you know, you just cross that off the list.  And I think reading romance and reading books that have sex in them and how sometimes sex is integral to the intimacy and the, the progression of the hero and heroine as a couple –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Amanda:  – has made me more open about sex, as well as, you know, having a mother who has no shame whatsoever.  Even if it’s just not certain sex acts, it’s made me more progressive and open in thinking about sex and talking about it and how I view it as a woman, even though sometimes the messages of romance and women’s sexuality can be counterproductive to a woman’s sexual agency.  Does that make sense?

Sarah:  Yes.  Totally.

Amanda:  Okay.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  And, and, you know, romance itself allows readers to explore a lot of different kinds of intimacy in the privacy of their own imaginations, so you can be like –

Amanda:  Yes.

Sarah:  – whoa!  I really like that idea!  Hmm.  I’ll do some research, and then I’ll figure –

Amanda:  Pin it.  Pin it to your Pinterest board.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Yes.  Can you pin things inside Tinder?  [Laughs]

Amanda:  I wish.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Is there, is there anything that you do differently because you read romance?

Amanda:  Romance is all about miscommunication.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Yes.

Amanda:  These people cannot talk to each other.  So, just seeing the sorts of shitshows that go down when you’re not vocal about anything in a relationship, whether it’s sexual or, or whatever, I kind of try to not miscommunicate with my partners, whether they’re sexual or romantic.

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Amanda:  I have developed, like, a personal mantra that life is too short for bad sex.

Sarah:  I think that is a very good mantra.

Amanda:  [Laughs] So if you’re having bad sex, or if it’s going badly, you should probably communicate with –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Amanda:  – whoever you’re sleeping with.

Sarah:  Yes.

Amanda:  So it’s made me way more open.  When I think of the kind of sex I was having in my relationships, it’s much different than the sex that I’m having now as a 26-year-old woman.  Oddly enough.

Sarah:  Because you are more confident and aware of how you –

Amanda:  Yes!

Sarah:  – how you work.

Amanda:  Yes, exactly.  And I would definitely attribute that to reading romance and probably erotica.  I didn’t start reading lots of erotica until about two or three years ago.  Before that it was mostly, like, paranormals and historicals, so –

Sarah:  Which could be pretty erotic.

Amanda:  That can be.  I mean, if you’re reading Anita Blake, but then things just get real weird.

Sarah:  In a hurry.

Amanda:  Yes.  And – [laughs]

Sarah:  Getting real weird in a hurry.

Amanda:  And my sex life has not gotten that weird.

Sarah:  So you don’t have the ardeur?

Amanda:  Yet.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  The ardeur.

Amanda:  No.  God, no.  I would be so tired all the time.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Amanda:  I’m already really tired.  And listeners, you know, you probably know more about me than most people, than maybe my roommates at this point.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Do you use your real name on Tinder, or are you, like, an, under a –

Amanda:  You have, no.  I, well, it’s just your first name.

Sarah:  Just your first name.

Amanda:  So it’ll say, like, Amanda, and then my age.

Sarah:  Right.

Amanda:  So, like, Amanda, 26, and then, you know, whatever you write in your little profile.

Sarah:  That ladies love vascular men.

Amanda:  I do.  I do love, you know, that little vine – not vine, the vein in the biceps.  Oh, so good.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Amanda:  I mention that, and that actually brings up a lot of conversation.  Like, I get lots of messages, like, hey, I have that biceps vein.  It’s like, oh, do you, okay.  Like –

Sarah:  What else do you have, ‘cause that’s not the only requirement, but I’m curious?

Amanda:  Oh, my God.  [Laughs] Well, usually the dudes have a shirtless pic somewhere in there –

Sarah:  Well –

Amanda:  – so you can kind of see what you’re working with ahead of time?

Sarah:  Yeah.

Amanda:  But it’s weird, because I’m one of those people where, if I want something and I like something –

Sarah:  You’re going to go get it!

Amanda:  Yeah!  It doesn’t mean that I’m super, super into you; it just means that I would like to have some sex now, please.  Like – [laughs]

Sarah:  Right.

Amanda:  – very, like, businesslike, which is usually how I prefer it at the moment.

Sarah:  Right.  Which, which I can see a lot of people listening going, oh, no, that wouldn’t work for me, that wouldn’t work, and I’m like, yeah, I can see why that would be helpful.

Amanda:  Yeah.  I mean, I’m at the point where I’m, in my life where I like to read, eat, and sleep, and then have some sex and then be left alone.  Like, I don’t want the person I’m having sex with to interfere –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Amanda:  – with my reading, eating, and sleeping.

Sarah:  No.  Like, we’re done now.  I’m going to go read.  Thanks, bye!

Amanda:  Yeah, essentially.  That’s how I would – [laughs]

[music]

Sarah:  And that is all for this week’s podcast.  I want to thank Amanda for hanging out with me and being so incredibly candid.  If you have ideas or feedback or questions or you want to find out more about that fine Tinder thing, or maybe the figgy pudding, you can email me at [email protected].

This podcast was brought to you by New American Library, publisher of Misconduct, the sexy new contemporary romance by New York Times bestselling author Penelope Douglas, on sale now.

The podcast transcript this month is sponsored by Renee Ahdieh, author of The Wrath & the Dawn, published by G. P. Putnam’s Sons Books for Young Readers, available in print and eBook.  This sumptuous and enthralling retelling of A Thousand and One Nights will transport you to a land of golden sand and forbidden romance.  She came for revenge, but will she stay for love?

The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater.  She is online @SassyOutwater on Twitter.  This album is Adeste Fiddles from Deviations Project.  This is “Here We Come A-Wassailing.”  I have no idea if wassailing and figgy pudding are related; I assume that they know each other.  You can find this album on Amazon or iTunes or wherever you like to buy your music.

Future podcasts will include me, possibly many other people, talking about romance novels, because that’s what we do here.

But in the meantime, on behalf of Amanda and Jane and myself, we wish you the very best of reading.  Have a great weekend.

[jolly music]