647. Finding Home: Recs and Wishes from Megan, Alanna, Sue and Rhonda

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there! Welcome to that weird week between Christmas and New Year’s where you’re not really sure what time is, but it is time for a new podcast. Yaaay! We are traveling all over the world again, from the west coast of the US to Germany to discuss the price of Pop-Tarts. We also have book recommendations and wishes for 2025. I can’t thank you enough for being part of these episodes. It is really, really fun to connect with all of you, and I’m so very thankful that all of you took time out of your days to talk with me, so thank you!

I will have links to all of the books that we mention; do not worry.

I do have a compliment. This compliment is for Robyn B.:

Your creativity and style influence so many people you know and so many more people you don’t know. You are a light of goodness and warmth in the world.

If you would like a compliment of your very own or you would like to support this here show, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Your support keeps the show going, makes sure every episode has a hand-compiled transcript by garlicknitter – hey, garlicknitter! – [happy holidays! – gk] – and you’re making sure that every episode is accessible. You get bonus episodes, including our predictions episodes, which are big and beefy and are in the feed now, so you can join and have a lovely backlog of things to listen to! Either way, it would be lovely to have you. Patreon.com/SmartBitches.

And that is all I have to say in this intro! It’s time for you and me to hear from Megan, Alanna, Sue, and Rhonda. On with the podcast.

[music]

Megan: I’m Megan Carlson, and I live in Washington State outside of the Seattle area.

Sarah: Oh, hello, West Coast! What book would you like – or books – would you like to recommend to everyone that you read this year?

Megan: The top two I decided on were, I loved The Marquis Who Mustn’t by Courtney Milan. I also loved Sanctuary by Ilona Andrews; that was just, it was a real treat to return to that, to the world of Kate Daniels. But for folks who are maybe newer to the series it’s…Kate entry point as well, so.

Sarah: So tell me about Sanctuary. I have not read it yet.

Megan: Ah, yeah! So Sanctuary follows, it’s, I guess it’s kind of, they’re writing it as the start, I would say, of a series about a beloved, I’ll say side character in the original Kate Daniels series, Roman, who is a pagan Volhv, which is a Russian, I would say priest, and his, his deity that he serves and worships is Chernobog, the Black God. And so it’s a, it’s a kind of mini adventure story where it’s around the Christmas season, so it is actually technically a holiday novel as well – [laughs] – and he has a youth that ends up at his house, and there’s kind of all sorts of shenanigans and I would say somewhat middling stakes. Like, you just, the previous series, you know that Roman’s a really competent, kind human, but there are still people, like, are people chasing this youth. The youth isn’t necessarily actively in peril? [Indistinct] the page that –

Sarah: Was.

Megan: Yeah.

Sarah: In the past.

Megan: He was.

Sarah: And these people –

Megan: Yes.

Sarah: – clearly picked the wrong person to mess with.

Megan: Yes. Roman is…

Sarah: Oh, that’s so satisfying!

[Laughter]

Megan: Yeah! So it’s great because I also, I, you know, I got to read some Russian literature in college, but the Kate Daniels series in some ways was an entry point for me in a lot of global mythology? And so it was just kind of fun to dig into the Roman mythology and pantheon a little bit more in this book as well.

Sarah: That’s so cool! Thank you!

What did you, what did you like about The Marquis Who Mustn’t, or marquis who mustn’t, depending on how you pronounce things?

Megan: I am one of those people who learned a lot of words by reading them and never hearing them, so thank you – [laughs] – for pronouncing that correctly!

Sarah: Well, I, it’s both? Isn’t that annoying? It’s both [mar-kwis] and [mar-key] depending on where you are, so both are right, I think? Yay?

Megan: Okay.

Sarah: You can’t be wrong!

Megan: Well, that’s – I’m glad! It’s usually, my husband’s like, Why, what did you just say? I’m like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Megan: – did I say it wrong? ‘Cause I’ll say it correctly this time. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep.

Megan: I loved, I, I love Courtney Milan’s books. They’re sometimes hard for me to reread ‘cause they just feel very visceral, and I’m not always able to engage with those emotions very easily all the time? But I, I love this book and, and part of her, this is part of her Wedgeford series, ‘cause it’s a big theme I’ve needed in my life of just, of people finding and creating community where they are and even in systems at times that are dangerous or oppressive to them, and so I just, I love, Courtney writes just such beautiful relationships, and I, I feel like I can see in this series in particular just how she subverts some of the normal, like, pacing of tropes?

Sarah: Yes.

Megan: So there isn’t necessarily the Big Misunderstanding in the third act and, you know, my gosh, if you guys just talked for two seconds this would have been fine. So how, how Courtney does relationships, not only between kind of the main romantic interests but also between the main character and their, their extended family and friends, the series and this book, the characters always just feel very well-rounded because they have, the char-, main characters have hobbies and friends, and they’re navigating relationships with their families in a way that doesn’t feel stereotypical. It’s just a really beautiful, satisfying read.

Sarah: That’s awesome! I love that. And you’re right –

Megan: Yeah.

Sarah: – the, it is so comforting to find, to, to read people finding and creating community where it’s needed? Like, that is wonderfully soothing for me to read about, for sure.

Megan: Yeah, me too, and especially, it’s gotten more personal. We, we just moved to this area about a year and a half ago, and so I’m learning as an, as an adult how to make and find community in a way I haven’t had to before, so it’s been, it’s been encouraging to read about people, even, even fictional folks, who have figured it out.

Sarah: It can be done. It’s hard! But it can be done.

Megan: Yes.

Sarah: So what are your wishes for 2025?

Megan: I think just kind of an expansion of, of, you know, in some ways why, why I loved Courtney Milan and Ilona Andrews’ writings this year, just, I wish everyone has the opportunity and the bravery and, and the spoons – [laughs] –

Sarah: Hmm!

Megan: – to kind, to both give and accept care, community, and kindness this year. Yeah. Sometimes I think, at least growing up, the narratives I did were all about how to be kind and how to be caring of others, but also how, it’s okay for you to accept it, and that also takes a level of bravery and courage that we’re not always taught.

Sarah: That was something I had to do this year was make room for people to show up for me and to say, I have these needs. You know, can you help?

Megan: Yes.

Sarah: Like, I’m really not good at that? I’m very bad at that. Extremely bad. Need practice. So you are totally right. I love, I love that wish. It’s so true. We are so inculcated on burning ourselves out and giving care and providing care, and care is needed; we provide it. But it’s very hard to be like, Help, I need, I need care. I need some, I need some assistance. That’s, that’s a really good wish, and a really hard one, too.

Megan: Yeah, thank you. I think especially those of us who are socialized as women, that’s also a reinforcement. But yeah, I’ve been learning to do that in personal, professional life and have had some feedback. People are just like, Thank you for saying something! It’s like, Yeah! That was really hard. Maybe we could stop talking about it and move on.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I’ve been there. I’ve been there many times.

Megan: Yeah.

[More laughter]

Sarah: Those are lovely wishes.

Did you, did you bring a bad joke? It is okay if you did not.

Megan: I don’t. I’m not a very funny person, so I get all my jokes from – [laughs]

Sarah: That’s fine. I shall provide. I shall provide; do not worry. And –

Megan: Yeah.

Sarah: – these are, these are an excuse for people to try to stump me, so do not worry. Not everyone does, and it’s fine.

Thank you so, so much for doing this. I really appreciate that you signed up and that you took time out of your day. Thank you so much!

Megan: Thanks for doing this, Sarah, and I also have a shared love for Calendly in my job, and so I’m like, Oh yeah, Calendly’s the way to do this. [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s right! Calendly and Google Calendar: if it’s on a calendar it gets done; if it needs to get done, has to go on the calendar. Very simple. ‘Cause do I know what year or day? No! Absolutely not. I think today’s Wednesday or Monday. It could be both; I have no idea.

Megan: Yep. I also work with people who are kind of, their job relies on a lot of grants and everything?

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Megan: And so they’re like, Wait, what year is it? It’s like, Okay, it’s calendar year this, fiscal year this.

Sarah: It’s so not fair when the calendar and the fiscal year don’t match. What, who, who decided that? That’s terrible!

Megan: It’s so silly. I was just like, I, yeah, I will start every meeting with what we’re talking about and why and what day and year it is, so. [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s almost like doing the announcements at elementary school? Good morning, everybody! Today is Tuesday, December 3rd –

Megan: Yes!

Sarah: – and we’re in fiscal year 2025! Publishing is now working on 2026. Let’s get to the news! Yeah. [Laughs]

Megan: Yes, exactly. So. [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, thank you, thank you, thank you, and also you are a very funny person. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

Megan: [Laughs] Thanks, Sarah. I appreciate that.

[music]

Alanna: This is becoming one of my favorite year-end rituals.

Sarah: Yay! That’s so lovely to hear! I love that.

Alanna: So my name is Alanna, and I also go by JFHobbit online in most of the places. And I am in Germany currently in the Rheinland-Pfalz area.

Sarah: When we talked last year, I think you had, you moved last year, so it was just a few months after you moved, right?

Alanna: Yes.

Sarah: If you look back now on where you were a year ago, can you see how different things are?

Alanna: In, in many ways yes. Certainly my German is better, thank God.

Sarah: Yeah, it, it picks up quick. [Laughs]

Alanna: Yeah. And we’ve, last year when we had this call, we had just moved to the apartment that we’ve been in for a year now. So just having been in a place for a year and being able to get settled has been a nice thing. Of course we have to move soon, but we’re hoping to at least stay in the same city now that we’ve, like, found stuff that we like to do here. We found a choir that we enjoy.

Sarah: That’s lovely!

Alanna: Yeah.

Sarah: Well done! Moving countries is hard, especially if you’re, I know your spouse is German, but you are not, and I know that’s real, real hard. Culture shock can be a pain in the ass. So well done!

Alanna: Yes. I did just get, I got a chance to hang out with an American friend and get access to some American snacks –

Sarah: I –

Alanna: – as well.

Sarah: – saw you this morning when I was on Bluesky talking about eating Cheez-its like it was the greatest thing that ever happened, and I was like, Awww! I remember that!

Alanna: [Laughs] Yeah. Cheez-its, I got, I, like, was they’re, they’re asking me, What do you want? And I was like, Um, um, um, Cheez-its? Doritos? Triscuits?

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah?

Alanna: The things that you don’t think that, like, you won’t have access – like, it didn’t occur to me that they would have, not have Triscuits. Like –

Sarah: How do you not have Triscuits? How do you not have Cheez-its?

Alanna: They do have an American section in the store that we frequent. It is approximately 7 Euro 50 for a box of Pop-Tarts, like a, a three-pack box of Pop-Tarts.

Sarah: Wait, €7,50 –

Alanna: Yeah.

Sarah: – which is roughly eight dollars American for –

Alanna: Yeah.

Sarah: – three Pop-Tarts.

Alanna: For three packs of Pop-Tarts, yeah. And most of what the other stuff that they have is like Warheads and Nerds and a couple of other assorted, like, candies.

Sarah: Wow. I’m still shocked at the price of Pop-Tarts. That’s, wow. Okay!

Alanna: Yeah.

Sarah: That’s an expensive toaster pastry.

Alanna: I saw them and I was like, Ooh, Pop-Tarts! And I saw the price tag and I was like –

Together: Ooh.

Alanna: Never mind.

Sarah: Wow. Okay!

So let me ask you about books! What book or books do you want to recommend to everybody that you read this year?

Alanna: So I tried to keep myself to five this year, which of course means that I have at least eight on my list.

Sarah: Nice!

Alanna: I was like, I was trying so hard, but to preface this, this year I decided to do not one but two different reading challenges for reading more sapphic books, because I was like, You know, I’ve read a lot of, like, m/m over the year-, like, I’ve come across a lot of that, and I enjoy that, and I still read m/m this year, but I had not read hardly any like f/f or any variation of anything that would fall under sapphic –

Sarah: Yeah?

Alanna: – or not nearly as much as I felt like I should, being of that persuasion myself. And I was like, Why is this? And so I found a couple of authors – well, I found one author, Jae, who’s actually a German author, but writes in English, and she runs, like, Sapphic Book Bingo every, every year. And then she also links to a website called I Heart SapphFic that runs, like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alanna: – a major reading challenge, and I was like, Welp, guess I’m doing this now. So all of my, almost all of my books this year were found or read because of that or just because I like the authors and I was like, Ooh. You happen to have a, a nice little sapphic thing over here; let me read that.

Sarah: Nice! So tell me about some books that you liked.

Alanna: So the book, starting off with my, probably my favorite author find, just in general this year, was Clare Ashton.

Sarah: Oh, she’s so good.

Alanna: Right? And particularly, like, the first book of hers that I read was Meeting Millie, which I read it, and I just, like, it was my first Bad Decisions Book Club book of the year?

Sarah: [Laughs] It has a great cover, too.

Alanna: Yeah. I, I picked it up, like, probably at like 11:00 p.m.?

Sarah: Yeah?

Alanna: Started reading it, and then all of a sudden it was like 5:00 a.m., and I was like, Hmm.

Sarah: That is a, that is a Bad Decisions Book Club.

Alanna: And then I also really enjoyed the sequel, Tempting Olivia, and I’m waiting in anticipation for the hinted-at third book in that series.

Sarah: Yep.

Alanna: And it’s not like I don’t have any other books to read.

Sarah: No, but you want to read that one; I can understand.

Alanna: But I really want to read that one.

So yeah, so the second on my list is an indie author that I actually found through a friend who sent me the ARC list for this book and was like, You should sign up for this –

Sarah: Ooh!

Alanna: – ‘cause you’ll like it. It’s called Faun Over Me – as in, like, a faun – by B. L. Brown, and it is like ‘90s vibes summer camp in the Appalachian Mountains, and there are cryptids involved.

Sarah: Okay, so the full title is Faun Over Me: A Sapphic Monster Romance –

Alanna: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – at Camp Cryptid. Wow!

Alanna: Yes. And I read it, and I was like, I did not know that fauns would be a thing that I would be, like –

Sarah: Into?

Alanna: – on board with?

Sarah: Yep.

Alanna: But a hundred percent on board with it. It was very, very well done. And yeah, and also just, like, that summer camp, that kind of classic, like, summer camp feel to it?

Sarah: Forced, forced proximity, very little to worry about, limited time.

Alanna: Yes.

Sarah: For sure.

Alanna: So next up is The Prospects by KT Hoffman? Which I would describe as just like the way professional sports should be for trans athletes? That’s it. That’s the title, and it was beautiful. I love, I love a baseball book, and a baseball book with, like, trans athletes being successful was amazing.

Sarah: I also love that the tag line is Minor leagues. Major chemistry. That’s so cute!

Alanna: Mm, mm-hmm. Yes, and accurate.

Sarah: What else you got?

Alanna: Don’t Want You Like a Best Friend and You’re the Problem, It’s You by Emma R. Alban. They both came out this year, and they kind of ended up being like a nice little duo, and I really liked in particular, at the end of the second book, how she wrapped up kind of both storylines and resolved it fully?

Sarah: Yes.

Alanna: I’ve, I’ve read a number of queer historicals because historical is one of my favorite, like, lanes of the romance genre, and so whenever there’s a queer one I’m like, Yes, please give me that. It’s really interesting to see how they have all just kind of been like, Let’s actually, like, do the research and see what it was that people were doing to get around whatever laws or social structures or other obstacles were in their place, and then, like, represent that on page, and I enjoy that!

Sarah: Yes. What other books do you have?

Alanna: Hers for the Weekend by Helena Greer, which, kudos to this podcast for introducing me to Carrigan’s. It’s my favorite, and I was so not ready for it to end, but Hers for the Weekend was a really great, like, cap to the trilogy. So much angst! So much yearning! She does a really good yearn.

At First Spite by Olivia Dade.

Sarah: Oh, good choice!

Alanna: I really loved the, like, mental health part of it, and, I don’t know, I like a, I like a book where it’s like, No, things aren’t all, always fine and dandy, even when all the hormones and emotions are happening. Sometimes there’s just, like, other stuff going on –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alanna: – and that’s also okay, and we can also work with that.

And then the final one that I just recently, actually, read on audio, which was great, is Out on a Limb by Hannah Bonam-Young? It’s a one-night stand, accidental pregnancy, but both of the main characters have limb differences.

Sarah: Very, very good list, I must say. Well played. I, I am so pleased that you read so many books that made you so happy? That is outstanding.

Alanna: Yes, and that’s like, I mean, like I said, that’s the short list? I’ve read a lot this year?

Sarah: Yay!

Alanna: Last year was kind of a little bit wild – see before international move – so this year was a little bit more settled and able to, like, kind of mostly stay in the flow of reading –

Sarah: Fantastic.

Alanna: – throughout the year, which was nice.

Sarah: What wishes do you have for people in 2025?

Alanna: My wish for people is that you are able to find the feeling of home wherever you are.

Sarah: Oh, that’s really lovely!

Alanna: So whether that’s food or people visiting or going to places that you feel at home, and just to be able to find that somewhere.

Sarah: That’s a really lovely wish, and I know for you that’s very heartfelt.

Alanna: Yes.

Sarah: Now, did you bring a bad joke? It is okay if you did not.

Alanna: Oh, oh, I did, and I’ve been ordered to credit my spouse with this one.

Sarah: Okay, spouse gets credit.

Alanna: I was like, I keep forgetting to write down the ones that I’ve heard.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alanna: …have one for me. And so they gave me – related, because we just saw Wicked this weekend.

What do you get when you cross the plot of Wicked with the plot of Cats?

Sarah: What do you get when you cross the plot of Wicked with the plot of Cats? I don’t know; what do you get?

Alanna: A song about defying Macavity.

Sarah: [Laughs] That is a musical theater joke right there.

Alanna: Then, yeah. And they followed it up with:

What’s a dentist’s favorite Cats song? Yeah, Macavity.

Sarah: Macavity, yep. Fair enough! [Laughs]

Well, thank you so much for doing this. It’s such a delight to talk to you again.

Alanna: Yes! Thank you so much. I love these episodes every year.

Sarah: Yay! …Mostly have –

Alanna: I was saying, I think on the Discord, that they are my favorite to listen to and just hear all the different people from around the world.

Sarah: Yes. Really around the world! Cross the country, and I’ve, like, I think right now I’ve had South Africa, Germany, Taiwan; I think there’s some Canada in there coming up, so yeah. We’ve, we, we’re, we’re going around the globe.

Alanna: Yeah.

Sarah: And tell your spouse the jokes were tops.

Alanna: I will; I will pass that on. They’ll be glad to hear it.

[music]

Sue: Hello. My name is Sue, and I live in southern California!

Sarah: Fantastic! This episode will have Atlanta, Washington State, Germany, and California. That’s a lot of time zones.

Sue: One of these things is not like the other!

Sarah: I am stoked about all of these time zones.

What book or books do you want to recommend to everyone that you read this year?

Sue: Thank you for putting the plural, ‘cause I was going to, again, ask forgiveness instead of permission. I was just going to lead off with at least two. It was going to be two, and then last night Bad Decisions Book Club and I had a meeting.

Sarah: Oh no! Not Bad Decisions Book Club!

Sue: Like, slash early this morning, and I was like, ‘cause I was like, I need to finish this book, ‘cause I think it’s going to be one of my, one of my few recommendations. So I learned about it from the, from the site: The Care and Feeding of Stray Vampires, Molly Harper.

Sarah: Yep!

Sue: Fortunately, it is a standalone in a much larger series –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sue: – that is not…standalone? Thank God, ‘cause I can’t handle series. Like, I really just, like, peter out, and then I get sad about – Outlander ru-, really ruined me? Like, really ruined me, and so I just can’t start series anymore. But this one was a standalone in a universe, and I really, really liked it. I thought it was super fun and just like the right amount of, the right amount of –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Sue: – stuff happening, not stuff happening, and I could have used a little more grovel, but I always feel like I could use a little more grovel?

Sarah: Yeah, always. Could always go for a little bit more. Agree.

Sue: She gets in a lot of danger, and I don’t feel like he appropriately grovels.

Sarah: Absolutely fair. Yes.

Sue: So I could have used a much longer grovel, but all in all, highly recommend. I don’t plan on reading the rest in the series; no, no offense to Molly Harper. I’m sure they’re wonderful. I just cannot do a thing that I know is eight books deep before I even start.

Sarah: I have read Devil’s Bride, the start of the Cynster series? I have probably read that book, oh, it could be fifty, sixty times. I love that book so much. I used to read it all the time. The Cynster series I want to say is like twenty-something books? Oh, no, I’m wrong – [laughs] – it’s thirty-five! I haven’t read a single one of the other ones! It’s just, only the first one is the one that I read. That’s it! Just that. Nope! None others!

Sue: [Laughs] It’s just, it’s just, it’s the one that you really like, and you like what you like. And –

Sarah: Yeah! And I’m, I’m like you: series are intimidating sometimes!

Sue: And I know I’m going to want to quit halfway through? And then feel bad about quitting and then, like, I have a lot of DNR ability now, so I’m very proud of that, but I don’t want to, like, overuse it, right? And be like, Oh, I ran out of DNR and, like, skill.

The book I was going to – like, I prepped; I have a, I have a reading log this year. Was not as big of a year as I thought it was going to be. Last year was great; it’s like forty-eight books; I was very happy. This year, twenty-three, but they’re all very good, and I’m, I’ve finished more this year than I finished last year, which I think that’s, you know, very exciting for, for me in terms of, like, finishing books.

So the one I was going to do was Once Persuaded, Twice Shy, Melodie Edwards, modern retelling of Persuasion. I also found it from your website. Like, I don’t read any other websites or BookTok or anything, so it’s all from Smart Bitches.

Sarah: [Laughs] I’m honored! My goodness! You might be the only person who does that, but I’m honored!

Sue: So I love all retellings of Persuasion; it’s my favorite Jane Austen. I like even the ones that people don’t like, like the widely panned Dakota Fanning – no, Dakota Johnson – remake in Netflix that was, like, dinged for being, like, too Fleabag-like or something? I loved. I’ve watched it multiple times; I think it’s really fun.

Sarah: Is that the one where people reviewing it said that she had a face that knew what an iPhone was?

Sue: Yeah, exactly. [Laughs]

Sarah: Is that the one? [Laughs]

Sue: …She does not. And I don’t care, ‘cause she talks to the camera! Like, she clear-, like, it’s very like, you have to go in knowing what you’re getting? And very similar to the Once Persuaded, Twice Shy, like, it’s a modern retelling; they take liberties; like, stuff happens; but, like –

Sarah: Yes.

Sue: I love a second-chance romance done correctly, and for me it’s very hard to do a second-chance romance sometimes –

Sarah: Yes.

Sue: – ‘cause they sometimes fuck up too hard when they’re young, and you can’t always be like, Oh, they were young! They didn’t know! So I think when it’s done really well, like, it tends to be, like, really worthwhile for me, no matter what, like, version of it comes from.

Sarah: And it’s a retelling, so you know the core points or the big moments and the, the, the sense of what the book is going to be – no pun intended – but you get to read it again in a new way. That’s why I love retellings. I love fairytale retellings; I love mythology retellings; I love Jane Austen retellings. I kind of know, like, maybe a third to half of what might be happening, but I, I’m often wrong and I only know a quarter. That’s one of my favorite things: if you can surprise me with a story that I know really well, it’s great, right?

Sue: Yeah. And that’s also why a lot of the Jane Austen retellings that are, like, a twist, I really enjoy. My favorite Jane Austen retelling was Lost in Austen, which I think was a, was a British series. I think it was CTV4 or something –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Sue: – BBC. But it was, they, they time travel or book travel? She ends up in Pride and Prejudice and, like, stuff happens and it, like, my favorite part on that was that you find out that Wickham’s not a bad person. Which is like, everyone knows Wickham’s terrible, but in the TV retelling he’s actually an ally, and he, like, cottons on pretty quickly that she’s not exactly from their time, but he helps her, and so –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sue: – I found that a very interesting way to retell, like, a very well-known character.

Sarah: I think one of the reasons that version of Knightley really worked for me in Lost in Austen was that he was kind of familiar with having to fake it. And I’m not saying he’s a con artist –

Sue: Oh, yeah, no, he is, though!

Sarah: He, he, he has to fool people a lot, often, and so he’s going to spot somebody who’s doing that same thing. Like, oh, you are, you are faking it too! How are you faking it? ‘Cause I think you belong here –

Sue: Yeah.

Sarah: – but you don’t!

Sue: Game recognize game.

Sarah: Con recognize con, yes. That’s one of the things I loved about that adaptation. It makes sense that he’s like, Oh, hang on.

Sue: Yeah. I’m not going to blow your cover, but I’m going to, I’m going to, I’m going to try to, like, figure out a way to, like, get a little closer to just amuse myself and see what’s going.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yep.

Sue: And then the third book, which is not at all romance, but sometimes books show up in your life when you really, really need them?

Sarah: True enough!

Sue: And…and I didn’t learn about it from Smart Bitches, but I really need to tell people about this, ‘cause it will, like, it really transformed what was going into, what was a very difficult time for me during this year. And the book is from Lindsay Gibson, and she has a whole series. It’s called Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People.

Sarah: I’m sorry! Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People.

Sue: Yes.

Sarah: Okay.

Sue: It is the non-parent version of her more famous book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents.

Sarah: Which I have read.

Sue: There’s a workbook.

Sarah: Oh no, not a workbook! Oh God.

Sue: I love a workbook.

Sarah: Okay, so basically what just happened is that thirty to forty-five percent of the people who will be listening to this just hit pause so they could go find this book. [Laughs] Welcome back, folks; we’re still talking.

Sue: Still talking. So I thought at first it’s, it was first recommended as an audiobook. The audiobook was almost too hard for me to listen to? Like, I couldn’t take any breaks; like, I really had to put stuff down and walk away. Like, literally put the book down and walk away from the book like, like it had, like, energy coming from it or something? So I, I honestly recommend the paperback version so that it, the energy remains in its own, yeah, physical location. And it’s like series of vignettes, and it’s interesting to read for so many reasons, chief of which was, like, to see the spectrum of how people behave and how you can react to them? And sometimes to read the vignettes and be like, Thank God that’s not what I have to deal with. Like, that sounds, you know, like, and, or, like, Oh! This stuff, like, some applies, some don’t, and then to see, like, the whole spectrum of it, and it was just super, super helpful for a portion of my year that was very difficult with some of the people around me. I really recommend, and I think she has either a podcast, like everyone does, but she has a podcast, or she’s definitely been on podcasts as like a guest or whatever, and you can certainly look those up. I think she was on Adam Graff’s podcast a few months ago. And I just found it really, really useful to feel less alone about, like, what, what was going on, and also to realize that there is a, there’s a lot of gray area between fully no-contact and fully enmeshed, right? There’s a lot, and that’s the part that you have to figure out where you can live in? And it was really, really helpful. So that book, hopefully I don’t continue, have to, continuously have to read it? It’s not a fifty, fifty to sixty reader – [laughs] – but I think it was so helpful, and I’m really glad to have it in my library, like, able to grab it whenever I need it.

Sarah: Yeah, like a, like a booster shot. I need a reminder that –

Sue: Yeah!

Sarah: – that this, I am not actually the problem here, but I need tools to cope with the problem.

Sue: Yeah, and I earmarked the ones that, like, are like, Oh, this happens; oh, this happens; and so, like –

Sarah: Yep.

Sue: …reference for me, I really recommend it.

Sarah: Yeah.

Sue: It, it helps people who may, or, you know, who may need it at some point in their life.

Sarah: The subtitle of this book [Recovering from Emotionally Immature Parents] is Practical Tools to Establish Boundaries and Reclaim Your Emotional Autonomy. Somebody who’s driving just listened to this and smacked their own steering wheel. [Laughs] Like, wow.

Sue: Yeah.

Sarah: And I think it’s really interesting, and I’ve had this experience too, that you can’t listen to things that are too intense.

Sue: Yeah, it felt too intimate…

Sarah: Yeah. Well, voice is very intimate, and voices in your ears, like with ear pods, that’s very, very intimate. This kind of book is so useful. I mean Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents blew my mind, absolutely blew my mind. It’s very reassuring to have a book say, This is a problem. Here are the ways that this problem is not actually your causing or your fault, but here are ways for you to cope with this problem, ‘cause this problem is not going to go away, and the other party in this problem is not going to change.

Sue: Correct! There was so much of, like, Well, what can I do to fix them? Which is nothing, right.

Sarah: Nope, nothing.

Sue: There was a lot of, like – and it was almost like revolutionary to have someone say, No, no contact is not always an, is often not an option –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Sue: – so don’t be, like, hanging your hat on, Well, if I can’t do no contact, then there’s nothing else. Like, there –

Sarah: No!

Sue: – it’s not a…nothing situation. It was so helpful, and then just very practical! Sue, like, gave you a script sometimes!

Sarah: Oh, the scripts are so helpful. So helpful! Wow. Thank you for that recommendation. I was not aware that there was another book from Lindsay Gibson.

Sue: That was the one I really wanted to get out, because…

Sarah: Thank you! That was very generous of you. Thank you very, very much.

What are your wishes for 2025 for everyone?

Sue: I thought about my wishes, and I think the one that I really want to impress upon myself and other people is Here we go again in the next four years. I hope, I mean, I hope you dance, but also I hope that you don’t lose your sheer cussedness, ‘cause sometimes what gets me through is just straight up being incensed. And not like twenty-four/seven, all the time, ‘cause you’ll burn out, but just being like, No, no, I’m indignant, and I, and I refuse, I refuse to fold. I refuse to accept it. I refuse – just I refuse. No, thank you. So I hope my sheer cussedness, which has gotten me through a lot, including my tough times this year, continues to blossom, ‘cause sometimes I feel like just sheer cussedness can get us through other stuff.

Sarah: Yes.

Sue: That, that’s what I hope for everybody when you need it.

Sarah: That’s a really lovely wish, and it echoes what you just said about how there, there is a range. It’s not just enmeshment and no-contact; it’s not just anger and indifference. You can get angry at different times about different things, and we all have so much to be angry about? I feel like sometimes the expectation, especially from certain corners of the internet and certain types of activism, is you have to be angry all the time. You have to be mad, and you have to be raging, and, like, there are some things where I can go from zero to an eleven in temper in like two seconds, and, like, I call that, I think, I think that’s like pushing the red button. Like, you know, this is going to piss me off. But that could not activate another person; they’re going to get activated about something else. We can all share the anger as much as we share the responsibility for fighting back about whatever bullshit is going to come our way.

Sue: Yeah. One week I just, for whatever reason, I decided to focus on potholes? So I reported every pothole that I was annoyed by.

Sarah: Hell, yeah!

Sue: And I was like, You know what, I’m going to tell everybody. And I had to look up – I go through three different cities, and I was like, I’m going to tell all these different cities, and I got responses from most of them! They’re like, Thank you for reporting the pothole! And they fixed, I think they fixed all of them. Some of them re-potholed, because what can you do? But I was like, Whoa! This was, like, I was just, like, really indignant that I had to, like, avoid potholes, like, and I was like, I wonder if anyone has told anyone? You know what? I’m going to tell people! So that’s –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sue: – little, my little act of No, I refuse!

Sarah: And also, you might have been the only person who reported it after a couple thousand people cussed out about it.

Sue: Yeah, exactly!

Sarah: And now you know how, which is so useful. Like, the, the sort of oral history of Here’s how you contact this part of the government to get this thing fixed, because there is totally a department whose job that is –

Sue: Yeah!

Sarah: – you’ve just got to find it!

Sue: Yeah. That, that sheer cussedness, I was like, I will find this; I’ll find this person. One of them was a person, which was hilarious, and one of them was like a generic web form, but –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sue: – it gave you a receipt, and it gave you the email, and so I was like, Great! Now I know your email!

Sarah: I like sheer cussedness. I’m a big fan.

Did you bring a bad joke? It is okay if you did not.

Sue: I did not bring a bad joke. I –

Sarah: It’s fine! Don’t worry.

Sue: Last week’s joke was one I was going to use, the armies and the sleevies?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Sue: You know…

Sarah: Somebody stole your joke!

Sue: I almost never know the jokes.

Sarah: Somebody stole your joke!

Sue: Yeah! And so I was like, You know what? No. I’m bringing a bunch of books; I’m bringing sheer cussedness.

Sarah: That’s plenty.

Sue: I, and I know that I’m not the only one, and I hope you feel our energy on every Friday when the podcast comes out? Somewhere, all day long, someone’s staring into middle distance and going, Saraaah!

Sarah: [Laughs] I hope so!

Sue: [Laughs] And so I also enjoy the reaction almost as much as – I mean, sometimes it’s back and forth. Like, sometimes I enjoy the joke more than the reaction; sometimes the reaction makes the joke. Like –

Sarah: Yep.

Sue: – and if all of it’s giving, and the only thing that you can do as my audience is to literally not react, but I know it’s impossible to react, ‘cause some of these jokes are so bad.

Sarah: They’re so bad. They’re just so incredibly terrible. I know. It’s great! I love it!

Sue: And all your friends told me they don’t like the jokes, but what’s funniest is the way I tell it. Like, half the time I can’t get it out ‘cause I’m laughing too hard, and they’re like, It’s not that funny. And then I’m like, I reassure them that it’s very funny; then I finally spit it out; and then they’re like, Not that funny; and then I can’t stop laughing and it’s this terrible cycle; and so –

Sarah: And it’s contagious, so they laugh anyway, even though they’re like, That’s not even funny and now I’m laughing!

Sue: And then, like, the best is when you’re out in a public place and someone walks by and you are crying-laughing, and the other person is stone-faced, and they’re like, What is this dynamic? And you’re like –

Sarah: This is weird.

Sue: – this is thirty years of friendship. I don’t know what to tell you!

Sarah: [Laughs] Thank you so much for doing this interview. It is such a nice, it’s such a nice time to catch up with you and chat a little bit. Hello! Thank you!

Sue: Thank you for doing this! I love these parts of the podcast every year.

[music]

Rhonda: My name is Rhonda, and I am in Bradley, north central Pennsylvania.

Sarah: Fabulous! Thank you for joining us; thank you for being on the show. Welcome.

What book or books – people have brought more than one – do you want to recommend that you read this year?

Rhonda: I’m actually recommending an author, but then I will give a specific title.

Sarah: Sounds great.

Rhonda: AJ Sherwood has been my go-to comfort reread this year? Under that penname she writes, they’re male/male romances, but there’s a lot of other things going on. They’re not just a romance, all right. One series is kind of, kind of historical fantasy feeling. There’s a couple series, interconnected series that are mysteries involving, I guess you’d want to say paranormal because, like, there’s people who are psychics and there’s ghosts and things like that. The one that I think is a fun starter is called The Tribulations of Ross Young – I should have looked this up – PA.

Sarah: The Tribulations of Ross Young, Supernat –

Rhonda: Supernatural –

Sarah: – PA. Oh, I think that my spouse will want to know about this. He loves a good supernatural investigator.

Rhonda: He’s not an investigator; that’s the Jon and Mack respective series that –

Sarah: Ah.

Rhonda: This I think she originally wrote as a serial for, in her newsletter, but then compiled it. So Ross is, has taken time off from college ‘cause he needs to save up some money to pay for college, and he is working the overnight shift at a convenience store in Salem, Massachusetts. And as part of that, he comes to realize that supernaturals are real, because he discovers he has werewolves and vampires as customers.

Sarah: Well, I mean, if you’re working the third shift at a convenience store, you’re going to get some interesting humans and nonhumans I guess! [Laughs]

Rhonda: Exactly! And he is recruited to be the, the PA for a clan of supernaturals in the area that is comprised of all different types of supernaturals. So the clan leader is a vampire, there’s werewolves, there’s all sorts of things, and it is just a fun romp.

Sarah: I misread PA as PI, because I’m used to seeing PI stories in the supernatural world. I love supernatural and paranormal people having to deal with bureaucracy? Like, I love the bureaucracy and paperwork of supernatural worlds, and I, as a former personal assistant and executive admin, this is so my jam? [Laughs] I’m so excited!

Rhonda: Yeah, and that is why he’s recruited, because there are just things they need humans to do.

Sarah: Yes!

Rhonda: Vampires who were turned hundreds of years ago as eight-year-olds can’t exactly, you know, go buy liquor.

Sarah: No.

Rhonda: So there is, you know, there is a very, a, a, you know, romance element, but it’s just a fun romp, and so it’s always good when I’m, like, dealing with existential dread.

Sarah: Yes.

Rhonda: So it, it’s just a fun one and some laugh-out-loud scenarios.

Sarah: This sounds absolutely perfect, and I want to read it right now, and it’s in Kindle Unlimited! That is the greatest! Hell yes.

Rhonda: So good.

Sarah: Love it! Have you read all of AJ Sherwood’s books?

Rhonda: I don’t think I’ve read absolutely everything, and then she has two other pennames which are different genre types.

Sarah: Yep.

Rhonda: I, I, my first one was actually, she’s, like, renamed it a couple times, but there’s one that’s a two-book series that’s kind of a, we would read it as thinking it’s like a historical, you know, it’s like a fantasy, ‘cause it’s not set on Earth? There’s, interconnected to the Ross ones, there’s a three-book series about sort of a found family of an assassin, a hacker, a thief. There’s another one that only has one book in this series that I haven’t reread as much, but those are kind of the go-to ones, and then of course the, the Jon, the Jon series and the Mack series are interconnected, where Jon is a psychic, a, a reader, and he, he can’t, he’s so powerful he can’t handle electronics. So while they’re mysteries, because he works at an agency that, that, where they are PIs, the first book is a lot about him finding an anchor just so he can function better.

Sarah: Yes.

Rhonda: And so there’s like six books. She just wrapped up that series this year, so that was the new book this year that I keep rereading, and then there’s an interconnected about Jon’s anchor’s brother ends up getting recruited from SWAT to the FBI and ends up becoming an anchor to someone who can communi-, who’s a medium and can communicate with ghosts.

So then there’s some crossovers and a – you know, it’s just, it’s just a lot of fun. And then I didn’t even mention, she has two that came out in chunks that are about, you know, an evil sorcerer recruiting the queen’s, like, first knight, so, to the dark side?

Sarah: Yep.

Rhonda: That, that, the Villainy series is an absolute hoot as well.

Sarah: There’s also a book called A Mage’s Guide to Human Familiars?

Rhonda: Yes. That’s another fun one. There’s, there’s three in that series, though the third one’s more novella? In that one, our main character is a mage who’s nineteen, and at the beginning of the book he calls a familiar, because the kind of mage he is, he has to have a human familiar –

Sarah: Right.

Rhonda: – instead of, you know, a fuzzy, furry one, because he has these very powerful, he’s of demon lineage?

Sarah: Oh, oh, uh-oh! That’s always a problem.

Rhonda: His demon eyes and his human body are not compatible?

Sarah: Ohhh!

Rhonda: So, so much of his magic goes to, you know, controlling that, but he can, similar to a reader, he can, like, see and analyze things, which means he can create spells for other mages to use? And so, but prior to the book, his first familiar, like, wanted out after like three weeks, and so it’s been several years’ recovery, and so he, he, magic brings him this, like, thirty-something-year-old army guy, and so then it’s just them developing the relationship and learning how to work together, and oh, there happens to be another guy? So they end up in a triad because the human familiar is just much better at offense, and his best buddy and former, his ex, had switched from army to Secret Service, and so is much better at the defense part, and so as, as part of them just becoming a team and then become a triad, and the second book they end up in Australia fighting, you know, like, investigating, like, what has been killing people.

Sarah: Sure! Absolutely! Why not?

Rhonda: And the third book is about one of the mages they become friendly with and work with, his, his, a little bit of his story.

Sarah: So I just looked this up, and there is a popular highlight which is absolutely giving me the tickles. Quote:

>> You know, I just realized this, but when you order a pizza you’ve basically become an NPC, given an adventure, a fetch quest, with the promise of money upon completion.

Ho, yes, this is my jam. Thank you so much for introducing me to this! I’m so excited.

Rhonda: You are most welcome, and, and hello to your, your orange, your orange cat behind you.

Sarah: Are you migrating to the box? Yeah. So, okay, so this, this Amazon box here on my futon has been there for the better part of a year? And I crumpled up a bunch of wrapping paper in there and threw treats in there. So he used to play and hunt for the treats, and now he just wants to sit in it. And I can’t move, I can’t get rid of the box. Every week like, Oh, it’s recycling; can we take the – no. You cannot take this box. This –

Rhonda: Yeah. Every time – we now have, we have a small void of darkness.

Sarah: Yes.

Rhonda: Little five-pound void of darkness with polydactyl murder mittens.

Sarah: Oooh!

Rhonda: But, and she’s at least fifteen, but until two years ago we had an orange boy that, you know, time passes and life happens.

Sarah: I know, and they don’t live as long as us. It sucks.

Rhonda: No…

Sarah: …do.

Rhonda: …to the only one brain cell.

Sarah: Oh yes.

Rhonda: He was a little better than that, but –

Sarah: Have you heard the theory that there’s actually only one orange brain cell shared between all of the orange cats, and you don’t know which one has it at that moment? That’s my favorite theory about orange cats.

Rhonda: Oh yeah, which is really good. There’s a fun game, if you’ve never heard of it, called Give Me the Brain? It’s a card game where you’re zombies in a restaurant filling orders, and you have to pass around the brain card.

Sarah: Oh? Okay, I think I need to order this for my next family vacation.

Rhonda: It’s, it’s been out for a number of years.

Sarah: This is, this one missed me completely, and I am so –

Rhonda: And I think we’ve been playing that one off and on for like twenty years now.

Sarah: Wow.

Rhonda: I’m just a little older than you.

Sarah: Little bit.

Rhonda: You know, like, our, our trends.

Sarah: Okay. I’m going to have to find this game, because that sounds perfect.

What wishes do you have for people going into 2025?

Rhonda: I had, like, an instinctive response listening to the last episode, and then I realized it didn’t quite work, so I guess my, my wish is that people have some space in their mental and emotional load.

Sarah: Yes!

Rhonda: It just, you know, I’ve, we’ve had a couple deaths in the family over the last couple years, and dramas, and it just feels like, I didn’t realize how little space I had in my load until it, I started to get more?

Sarah: Yes!

Rhonda: And so, you know, a friend of mine’s summary after I was responding on Fa-, like, venting on Facebook about something stupid, a friend said, Adulting is a treadmill. Which just feels like so-, even when you just have, like, the day-to-day junk? It takes up so much that to then deal with any crisis? And so then, like, I have a lot of friends with chronic illnesses and stuff who, you know, just don’t have that extra space. So I just, I wish people some space in that mental and emotional load, especially as we deal with, you know, the larger existential dread that is the United States right now.

Sarah: You’re so right: you do not recognize how little extra space you have until it is all overtaken by something that’s happened. But you also don’t want to live your life preserving space because something might happen, because that’s also a, a very draining way to be. It’s hard! Adulting –

Rhonda: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – really is a treadmill.

Rhonda: Yeah, so all, all credit to my friend Jonah for, for summarizing fighting with bureaucracy to that phrase.

Sarah: So true. So true.

Did you bring a bad joke? It is okay if you didn’t.

Rhonda: I have one, but it is, it is, I have to say it is so classic as to perhaps be slightly outdated. This is my go-to bad joke, which I first heard on a Garrison Keillor Prairie Home Companion joke episode, which means it was probably twenty-five years ago?

Sarah: Vintage.

Rhonda: …listening to that in the late ‘90s, so it’s definitely vintage.

Why does a chicken coop have two doors?

Sarah: Why does a chicken coop have two doors? Why?

Rhonda: Because if it had four it’d be a sedan.

Sarah: [Laughs] That’s, that’s classic. That is a classic, vintage – like, you could sell that at a higher price at a consignment store. That is a classic, vintage joke.

Thank you so much! And thank you –

Rhonda: Oh, thank you!

Sarah: – thank you for doing the interview with me. It is really, really fun to talk to all of the people who listen and to meet everybody, so thank you! This really makes my day.

Rhonda: Well, thank you so much. I love these episodes.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you again to Megan, Alanna, Sue, and Rhonda. It is so fun to connect with you, and enough people signed up, in record numbers, that I have two more of these episodes to come! Get ready! We’re going to be taking our wishes into the new year.

But leaving us in this year is one more bad joke, because, well, I wanted to tell you this one. [Laughs]

What is a spider’s New Year’s resolution?

Give up? What’s a spider’s New Year’s resolution?

To spend less time on the web!

[Laughs] I mean, I work on the internet, so it’s really not a great resolution for me, but every year I’m like, What if I did it less? And then that doesn’t happen.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend and a very, very Happy New Year. We will see you in 2025.

[end of music]