640. Cozy Witchcraft with Lucy Jane Wood

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 640 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell. My guest today is Lucy Jane Wood. Lucy Jane’s new book Rewitched is out, and we connect to talk about all things cozy, witchcraft, all the different ‘90s witches in pop culture, and the big feelings around turning an age with a zero on the end. Ultimately, Rewitched is a book about a person who wants to keep her own power, and this is a theme that I could certainly relate to.

I will have links to all of the books that we talk about and all of the places that you can find Lucy Jane in the show notes. And you know where that is, right? Smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 640.

I have a compliment this week, which is always delightful.

To Kathryn G.: Grammarians and language experts consulted with your friends, and they have collectively decided that a plural of you is an excellence of Kathryns, mostly because you are extremely excellent.

If you would like a compliment of your very own or you would like to support this here show, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Patreon members get bonus episodes, a really lovely Discord community, and you are helping me out and making sure that every episode is accessible to everyone. Hi, garlicknitter! Garlicknitter handcrafts our transcripts each week – [Sure do! – gk] – and podcast Patreon pledges – I managed to say that without going right into the microphone – are part of what contribute to the opportunity to make that happen. So if you’d like to support the show, patreon.com/SmartBitches.

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Are you ready? Let’s do this. Let’s talk about ‘90s witches and cozy things with Lucy Jane Wood.

[end of intro]

Lucy Jane Wood: So my name is Lucy, Lucy Jane Wood. I am a content creator across YouTube, Instagram – pretty much every place you can think of, really – and I am now a, a debut author. My first book Rewitched has just come out a couple weeks ago, and yeah, it feels a little bit surreal to attach that one to myself, but that’s me! I live in London with my partner and my cat and try to live as cozy a life at all times. [Laughs]

Sarah: I do not blame you. It is, after all, it is October, so bring on the cozy.

Lucy: Exactly! Now’s the time!

Sarah: Yes. Congratulations! Being a debut author is very weird, because you, I, I kind of kept waiting for somebody to say to me, You are now an author! And I had to get used to saying it myself, because I’m the one who had to declare myself an author. It’s weird, right?

Lucy: Yeah! I think it’s going to take me a little while to get used to. I think everyone keeps asking; they’re like, Oh, has it sunk in yet? Like, have you had the moment where it clicks into place? And I’m not sure what that moment is going to be, because everything still feels very surreal at the moment, and, like, seeing it in store and, you know, seeing a good reception for it and stuff hasn’t quite kicked in yet, so I’m still waiting for that moment.

Sarah: It, it is a little strange to see your name on things external to you at a bookstore? Like, I never get over –

Lucy: Definitely.

Sarah: – seeing my name on a book out-, outside of my house? That’s wild. Like, that’s not…

Lucy: Yeah. When you can hold it, it’s like a tangible thing, I thought that would be the moment where it suddenly felt like reality, and still not! So.

[Laughter]

Sarah: So congratulations on Rewitched. A debut –

Lucy: Thank you.

Sarah: – a debut novel is a very big deal, so I hope you are at least enjoying the, the weirdness. What are your elevator pitches for this book? Like, if someone asks you, Oh, what’s your book about? And after your mind goes blank for a few seconds –

Lucy: Oh yeah.

Sarah: – what do you say? What will readers find inside this book?

Lucy: Yeah, the elevator pitch is something that I still haven’t quite got down yet? I wish that’s something that someone had told me a long time ago, that you should master early on. But this is a cozy, comforting, witchy story for anyone who loves all things nostalgic, I would say? For things like Charmed, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, Gilmore Girls, that very autumnal feeling, and it’s a story about rediscovering your own potential as you get a little bit older and the magic of love and the supportive nature of that in all its different forms.

Sarah: Did you watch a lot of Sabrina and Charmed as preparation for writing?

Lucy: Oh, I’ve literally put my T-shirt on today to try and –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Lucy: – to try and –

Sarah: That’s a great shirt!

Lucy: – channel her! [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s, I didn’t even know there were Sabrina the Teenage Witch shirts. That’s awesome!

Lucy: I found this years ago, and it’s like one of my most prized possessions, and I’ve got a book event this evening in London, and I’m trying to dress as witchy as possible to channel all things ‘90s witch, so yeah, I’ve got my T-shirt proudly on today, and yeah, those ‘90s witches were pretty much the main influence in my life since I was about seven years old, I think, so. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. And, and did you get to, like, rewatch the whole series while you were writing?

Lucy: Oh, I have done, you know, years and years on, I, you know, through university, they were all such a comfort show to me, and I always turn to them when I’m having, like, a little bit of a downtime or whatever. I’m very much like a, a rewatcher for my anxiety levels.

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: So all those very treasured, treasured shows to me are something that I turn to just over and over, like Buffy, Charmed, Sabrina, all of them. [Laughs]

Sarah: There is a diner inside an airport in Baltimore in Maryland, and it’s like you go through security, and then there’s just a diner. There’s like a, an outpost of a diner, and they –

Lucy: I love that.

Sarah: – always, always playing Charmed. Seven in the morning? It’s Charmed. Nine at night? It’s Charmed.

Lucy: If anything’s going to get me to Baltimore, that’s it. [Laughs]

Sarah: Right? And so I’m like, What, why is this, why is this diner always – like, every time I’ve been there, months apart? It’s always Charmed. With the weird CGI and the, the weird smoke and all of that, and I’m like, Is this meant to chill everybody out before they fly? Is that the goal here? It, nothing –

Lucy: Maybe they’re just appealing to millennials specifically, to, to ease their anxiety levels. [Laughs]

Sarah: Exactly – millennial airport diner.

So I know in the story – when I talk about a book that’s brand new, typically I focus on, like, the character’s larger arc, but I try very hard not to give away spoilers, because I’m assuming that, you know, someone who’s listening may not have read it yet.

Lucy: Absolutely.

Sarah: And I wanted to ask you about specifically your lead character, with Belladonna. She is dealing with so many familiar things for people her age: burnout, questioning her purpose, looking at her thirtieth birthday like, What am I doing with myself? And trying to decide who she’s going to be in the next decade. Why were these important themes for you to include? And did they sort of, did they come out organically while you were writing, or were you thinking about them before you started writing? Was this an intentional element to her character and her larger story?

Lucy: Yeah, so I, I will say that pretty much everything in this book came out organically, because I went into it on a wing and a prayer with zero plan; zero, you know, idea of where it was going to go or what it was going to be. It just started off as this one tiny idea of this witch having to prove that she was worthy of keeping her magic. That was my starting point –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: – and I wanted to dive headfirst into that as a starting point without overthinking it into oblivion, like I tend to do with everything. But I started writing this in 2020, obviously kind of like in the midst of lockdown when no one was particularly thriving at that point –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: – but I was definitely doing a lot of inner reflection. I was turning thirty; you know, I was thinking a lot about how my life looked compared to what I thought it might look like at that point?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: I was doing a lot of thinking about my younger self and what she would think about how things had turned out for me and how I had certainly strayed away from what sixteen-year-old Lucy thought she would be doing at that point in life. I was doing a lot of reflection like that, I think, as a lot of people were at that point, because we all had a little bit more kind of grace and space, I guess, to slow down and, and think about where we were up to in life. So when I think about how I was feeling at that point in life, I was feeling like I’d really sort of capped my own success, and I was living very small and not really – I was certainly afraid to shine at that point, I think, and was really kind of pulling myself back and slowing myself down as a result of that, and when I think about that headspace that I was in at the time, it makes so much sense that Belle kind of developed from that point in my life, and I think thirty in general just brings a lot of, a lot of questions with it? I think whenever you hit a milestone like that in life, there’s something about an age with a zero on the end –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: – that makes you want to, you know, kind of do a bit of an audit on everything and figure out how you’re feeling about the life that you’ve built for yourself.

Sarah: Very true, especially because, for me, when I, when I turned thirty, before I got there, I thought thirty was old.

Lucy: Absolutely! [Laughs]

Sarah: And then I got there and I’m like, Hold on!

Lucy: And you’re like, I’m still a baby! [Laughs]

Sarah: Right? I don’t know anything. I don’t know any…

Lucy: I’m not the responsible adult in any situation!

Sarah: I literally have to write my name – no joke – the forms for my children’s school, instead of saying Parent/Guardian, they just say Responsible Adult? And I have to write my name there? Every time I’m like –

Lucy: …don’t like that!

Sarah: – really? Me? I have to be the Respons- – I guess I do. Holy crap!

Lucy: [Laughs] That’s making you accept that role whether you want that or not.

Sarah: Yeah, right? I have to write my name under, under Responsible Adult like several times a year, and it’s always like, Wait. You sure?

Lucy: It feels slightly passive-aggressive, actually. I don’t like that. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, it’s, it’s a weird one. Like, Ooh, okay!

So one of the things I think that’s so interesting about the idea of being a witch worthy of keeping her magic is that it, I think it also reflects a lot of things that are happening in different parts of the world. Like, here in the States we are arguing very deliberately that women are worthy of keeping their own autonomy. We have a lot of reproductive freedom issues, and I look at the UK and the challenges about just being trans in the world and people keeping the freedom to be who they are and who they want to be. And I feel like that is a theme that is really fun to explore in magic because it’s so painful in the real world? Were you thinking about that at all as well, or is that something that just sort of paralleled that you –

Lucy: Yeah. I think that’s another thing that kind of grew very organically and just –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: – seemed to fit the story very well? I think it’s using magic as a reflection of almost kind of like your self-worth, I think? And how much you, how much you are allowed to and how much you allow yourself to explore that to its full potential. I think the idea of magic and potential being very, like, extrinsically linked makes a lot of sense, and so Belle’s narrative through the story, you know, she starts and she’s living so small, and her magic really reflects that? It’s magic on a very kind of domestic level, and it’s basically like, I like to think of it like lazy girl magic? Like, the spells that she uses at the beginning are basically just spells that’ll make your life a whole lot easier – [laughs] – right at the beginning, and that’s kind of where her magic has fallen into, and it’s really kind of shrunk into that very domestic kind of style. But as she heads off on this adventure in this story of kind of growth for her as a person, her magic also reflects that, and I, I just found that was like a really easy, I guess the technical term is a metaphor, if you want to get really posh about it. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah?

Lucy: If you’re going to be a professional literary person. But, yeah, that was a very natural conclusion for the story, I think.

Sarah: Oh, for sure. And also, if you think about it, the basics of human biology? They aren’t magic, but they can seem that way. Like, heart cells have an electrical charge, and that’s why your heart pumps, you know, heart pumps blood, and nobody fully knows how the brain works in all of its dimensions, but it’s doing stuff.

Lucy: Yeah!

Sarah: The, the basics of your human existence are very magical.

Lucy: Absolutely! I mean, I am as, about as far from a scientist as a human can possibly be, I think –

Sarah: Right there with you.

Lucy: – so when, when I think about things like that, to me it almost makes more sense to explain them as magic, rather than being able to understand the nitty-gritty of how it actually works.

Sarah: Yes, I’m really glad that other people can explain it better than I can, ‘cause I’m not very good at it. [Laughs]

Lucy: [Laughs] Absolutely! We’ll stick to the stories. The truth can lie somewhere else.

Sarah: Did you have a favorite scene when you writing? Is there one you go back to, you’re just like, Oh, I love this so much?

Lucy: I think the, the really kind of emotive ones that come about towards the end of the story? I don’t – is it spoilers to say what they are? I, I don’t want to, like, give away too much, but there’s, there’s conversations with a family member that kind of come through magic and Belle…

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: – spell to make it happen for herself.

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: And I, I found that a really cathartic experience. [Laughs] You know, it, it felt like connecting with that family member for myself and, and living that conversation as if it were, as if it were real for me. So I think about that process really fondly. I mean, the whole, the whole storytelling experience of Rewitched was a very cathartic one for me, but those particularly emotive scenes in particular – there’s another one where Belle makes contact with her younger self, and that was one –

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: – that was really special for me to write as well. I think it’s those very kind of honest and vulnerable scenes that I kind of enjoyed putting on paper the most.

Sarah: Did you cry while you were writing?

Lucy: Oh –

Sarah: That happened to me.

Lucy: – like, full ugly, ugly, ugly –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Lucy: – crying. [Laughs] Not just like –

Sarah: Somebody walks in; Are you okay?

Lucy: – a little single tear. Yeah, like your partner coming into the room and being like, What has happened? Like, it’s –

Sarah: No, it’s actually going really well!

Lucy: [Laughs]

Sarah: I promise this is good! Just, it’s okay! [Laughs]

Lucy: I think if real tears are coming, that can only be a positive thing for how much of yourself you’re giving to a story, I guess.

Sarah: Oh yes. Many authors I’ve talked to said, Oh no, I cry; if I make myself laugh, I know it’s good.

Lucy: That’s reassuring to hear! ‘Cause it does make you feel slightly crazy at times, so –

Sarah: Oh!

Lucy: – it’s good to know that everyone’s in the same boat.

Sarah: Oh, the language of being a writer of fiction is, is like if you’re talking to someone who doesn’t understand that? You’re going to talk about your characters talking to you, hearing voices in your head –

Lucy: That’s a big one, isn’t it?

Sarah: Yeah – having, having emotions that you’ve created externally, and then you’re crying over something you wrote two weeks ago. Like, this is all very strange to someone who’s not familiar with that process, so no, you do sound a little bit out of order.

Lucy: [Laughs] You just have to be okay with that, I think.

Sarah: Yeah, exactly.

Lucy: One of the questions I have been asked a lot about, it’s like, Oh, what’s the, what’s been the biggest surprise about, you know, writing your first story or whatever? And for me it was cert-, certainly one of those that you just mentioned, like the way the characters seem to, you know, speak their own lines and make their own decisions, and that was one of the, the biggest surprises of the whole process for me. I can’t believe that it’s actually how it really feels. [Laughs]

Sarah: It is! No, it happened for me as well.

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: I mean, I know that when I am reading a book, I hear it. I have like an internal audiobook narrator. When I’m reading, I’m hearing as well, and so when I was writing fiction and the characters would start talking, first of all, they would always start talking at a time when I wasn’t at my computer, and I would have to, like, run and write it down. So I had, like, notes of dialogue on the weirdest pieces of paper; on, like, the back of a cereal box, I’m writing with a Sharpie; and you, I didn’t get to choose when they would start talking? And then they didn’t shut up, and I was like, This is great! But also a lot of work!

[Laughter]

Lucy: At like three o’clock in the morning, you’re like…

Sarah: Yes.

Lucy: – thousand words now that I have to get out of bed and put on paper before I forget it.

Sarah: Right? Because you know it’s not, you’re not going to remember.

Lucy: Oh, never, especially in the middle of the night. You just know that that is never going to come back to you.

Sarah: Yeah, I used to call it word labor? Like, you don’t get to choose when you go into labor; it just kind of happens –

Lucy: [Laughs]

Sarah: – unless you’re induced and –

Lucy: The waters break, and that’s it; you’ve got to roll with it.

Sarah: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah, you’ve got to write it down; if it’s two in the morning, sorry. And so I am never without something to write something down at this point, ‘cause I’m just so used to brain going, Oh, I had an idea! Let me tell you all about it right now! Like –

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: – I’m cooking!

Lucy: I think if anyone was to break into my phone and take a look at the notes…my phone, I think I would probably get arrested at this point, and it’d be like, This girl – put her, put her somewhere safe. [Laughs]

Sarah: Did you write a lot on your phone? Or did you write a lot on the computer?

Lucy: Mostly on my computer and on paper for the actual story, but when those random thoughts or random, you know, good snarky lines of dialogue or something that you don’t want to forget, they go straight into my phone at two o’clock in the morning, and then –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Lucy: – you look back at them in the morning and you’re like, Hmm. [Laughs] Can’t make much sense of this, but here we go!

Sarah: Okay! Whatever Past Me was saying is great.

Lucy: Exactly! [Laughs]

Sarah: I am fascinated by how different generations of writers apply technology and use different tools, but how consistent it is that so many people are using pen and paper. I think that’s a very unique cognitive connection. I’m sure there’s a whole bunch of studying about the difference between typing with your thumbs and typing with your hands and writing with a pen. Did you notice a difference there too?

Lucy: I think, yeah, I think the, the key for me is that it almost kind of slows my brain down? And it connects –

Sarah: Yes!

Lucy: – it connects my thoughts a little bit more at, at a more kind of doable speed, because my brain works at a frantic –

[Laughter]

Lucy: – frantic speed the majority of the time. There’s something about putting pen to paper that (a) slows it down and (b) just kind of like romanticizes the whole thing a little bit? And kind of helps me find the joy in being a bit more present with the story writing as well. Obviously it’s, it’s starting to become something that’s a little bit more pressured, and there’s deadlines involved and things like that now, which is not something I experienced the first time around, but really romanticizing that process as much as I can helps me kind of focus on the joy of the storytelling a little bit more, I think.

Sarah: Yeah, because the only way the book gets made is if you write it down.

Lucy: Exactly, and you’ve got to be enjoying it to push, push through the, like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: – struggle of getting that first draft down.

Sarah: Yes. Are you working on another book now?

Lucy: Yeah! I’m, I’m pretty much over the line with book two now.

Sarah: Ooh!

Lucy: Yeah. It’s pretty much there. Well, I mean, that, that, the very kind of ugly, awful first draft of it is –

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: – pretty much there. But for me, that’s definitely the hardest part, so I’m really glad to have nearly got that over the line, and then I can come back to it and try and make it a bit more shipshape and shiny.

Sarah: Yeah. So there’s a writer named Saeed Jones who’s a poet and a podcaster, and he said this yesterday, actually: that the first draft of a piece of creative, creative writing is a radical act. The blank page isn’t the canvas. The first draft is the canvas. That’s when you get to work. So…

Lucy: I love that.

Sarah: And I, and I read that, and I thought, Ohhh! That makes so much sense! The blank page –

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: – isn’t the draft; it’s that first draft that is the –

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: – that is your, that is your canvas.

Lucy: Yeah. I think, I think the way that I heard it that really kind of made something click in my brain is that first draft is just to tell yourself the story. You know, it’s not for anything –

Sarah: Yes.

Lucy: – more than that, and it’s, and it’s not to put any more pressure on that that; it’s just to help you figure out the beats and get from A to Z and just figure out kind of the shape of everything and how it all fits together?

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: And then –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Lucy: – a little bit later down the line, you can turn that into a story that might be half decent. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes. When you started, had you already thought about what was going to happen in that first scene? Or did you just say, All right, let’s see what happens if I write this down?

Lucy: It was pretty much that; it was the, I have this concept in my head. The, the first visual that I really saw was this witch standing in front of a jury of her peers, her coven, who would make this kind of trial-based decision of whether she deserved to keep her magic or not. That was the one that kind of really sparked something in me, and that was the kind of, the motivational vision that I had in my head. And I think from there I very quickly decided that it was going to be a, a witch around thirty, who’d reached that point in life that, where the, the magic was kind of mirroring how she was feeling herself? And it was that point that I started at, and trying to kind of create the more kind of like domestic life for her, working in a cozy little bookshop, living with her best friend as a flatmate, living in London in the autumn. Like, that was the scene that I started with, and the much more kind of dynamic, adventure side of the story kind of wrote itself as I got a bit further into her life and the journey that she was going to go on.

Sarah: It is so interesting that it started with this idea of Bella standing in front of this tribunal judging her, because one of the things I, I know that I thought a lot about when I was turning thirty was how much judgment I leveled on myself and how much judgment from other people I took as valid and worthy of considering? I’ve, I’ve, I’ve read that as you, as you age, you give fewer fucks? So, like, you, you turn forty, you have like one fuck for the whole year.

Lucy: That’s what they say, but I’m not necessarily…

Sarah: [Indistinct]

Lucy: – that’s true or not. I mean –

Sarah: No?

Lucy: – maybe, maybe in general, but then as we were saying, like, about the milestone birthdays, like –

Sarah: Yes.

Lucy: – that suddenly seems to go out the window? And it brings so much comparison with it. You, you start to really judge yourself against your closest friends for, you know, which is something that you would never normally do, but there’s something about those looming big birthdays that make that feel like something you should be doing. So yeah, I think in general I like to think that I care a lot less, but maybe just when it catches you on the off days, the comparison feels bigger than ever as you get older, I think.

Sarah: Well, those birthdays with a zero at the end do feel really weighty and important, because –

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: – you know, you’re starting over with a zero, and it’s like you’re leveling up. You have a new number in the front, and the leveling up in terms of believing and knowing yourself, I think, is something that a lot of people who do a lot of self-reflection will incorporate into how they see themselves in the next, you know, decade or five years, or if you’re into, like, numerology or astrology, which, which return are you in? What number are you in? And it’s interesting because you are judging yourself based on where you thought you would be, where your friends are, but I also don’t quite think that there’s enough exploration of how much fear there is when you judge yourself, you know what I mean?

Lucy: Yeah. Absolutely. I think – I mean, the first thing that comes to mind when you say that to me is a fear of failure. I think –

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: – that is, that’s something that had really started to control all of the, all of the decisions that I made through my late twenties. I, I mentioned earlier about, you know, really kind of, like, kind of…my own success and kind of being afraid to shine a little bit, and I think that all boils down to fear of failure as you are supposed to be becoming more and more established and more confident in yourself and, ‘cause, you know, you, you might shoot for something, and if that goes wrong, how far back is that going to knock you? How much is that going to affect, you know, progressing forwards? And obviously, as you get older, reality kicks in more as well? So the threat of that failure affecting a million different aspects of your life is very real.

Sarah: Especially being seen failing.

Lucy: Definitely.

Sarah: …fixes to that.

Lucy: And, and the embarrassment and the shame that, that comes with that as well. Like, it’s superhuman if that’s not something that you think about all the time, you know, that, that risk of embarrassing yourself, but one of my favorite things that I heard, not that long ago, actually – someone much cleverer than me said that embarrassment is the cost of entry, and I just, I –

Sarah: Ohhh!

Lucy: – that’s really changed how I have felt about putting myself out there and trying new things and giving things a go? I just love that concept.

Sarah: Yeah. There’s a cartoon called Adventure Time where one of the characters says, The first step to being sort of good at something is sucking at something.

Lucy: Absolutely! [Laughs] And that’s what that first draft is for!

Sarah: Yep, that’s what it’s for. Now, I saw on your Instagram that you went to the printer while your book was in production, which is so fricking cool. What was that like?

Lucy: Yeah. It was honestly one of the best days of my life. [Laughs] I loved it so much. It was like a field trip, but –

Sarah: Yeah!

Lucy: – for, for your thirtieth, thirty-third birthday kind of thing. It was, it was just so wonderful, and I would, I, I feel like we should do more things like that, because now I, I genuinely care about learning about how a book is made, and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: – you know, I, I was so interested in how it all worked, and we were guided around to see all the different aspects of the book coming into production, and it was just, it was incredible! How often do you get to see something like that these days?

Sarah: I’ve never seen that with my eyes, but I think I watched your video like four times. Oh, here they come down the conveyor belt! And oh, this is the thing with the, does this – oh.

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: So cool!

Lucy: It was really, really cool. I put the request in, like, really early on with my publisher, ‘cause I’d seen a couple of other authors getting to visit. It’s not too far out of London, so I guess if you’re London-based, like, it’s not too hard to make that happen. And I’d been very envious of everyone that I’d got to see do it, because I just thought, What an amazing experience to be able to pick your book off the literal conveyor belt, like, freshly pressed.

Sarah: Yes.

Lucy: And yeah, it was just wonderful. I mean, it was a very incredible personal experience, and then I got to make some really lovely content out of it as well, which went down really well, I think. People were, were amazed to see it, to see how it all comes together!

Sarah: It’s a very behind-the-scenes thing. Like –

Lucy: Yeah!

Sarah: – you don’t, you don’t usually get to see, here are the pages, and here’s the cover, and here’s it –

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: – all being assembled and attached to each other. What kind of conversations did you have with the people who worked there? Like, are they interested in what they’re doing? Are they book people too?

Lucy: I, the, the guy who took us round was genuinely one of the most passionate people I think I’ve ever met. He was so kind of excited about the whole thing, and he, I mean, he completely – ‘cause I burst into tears as soon as I saw it happening, and he just completely understood. He was like, You’re not the first; you won’t be the last. Like, it’s a very emotional experience to see it kind of come to fruition literally before your eyes like that? They were just, like, really wonderful, so welcoming, and certainly a, a day that I will not forget in a hurry, that’s for sure! [Laughs]

Sarah: That is very cool! That is very, very cool.

Now, I want to ask you about your social media and your content creation especially, ‘cause you have a terrific following on YouTube and Instagram, and I love your bio. You describe yourself as a writer, reader, and internet friend. That is a very clever bio. I love that.

Lucy: Oh, thank you!

Sarah: What led you into visual media? Because you’ve been doing videos and written content for more than ten years now, right? Since 2013.

Lucy: Yeah, it’s certainly not, I’m certainly not one of these, like, overnight success stories. [Laughs] I, I mean, it started when I graduated university. I was twenty-one when I first started kind of blogging and dabbling with YouTube. It was very kind of fresh, and no one was doing it as a job or anything like that at that point. But it was just something that I, I really found a sense of community in? I was quite lonely at the time, I think. I think that, that freshly graduated time is a really kind of, a lonely time for a lot of people, and I, I found a lot of online friends through that, and it just felt like a really welcoming, safe space to talk about things that I loved and enjoyed talking about. And it was a place to find like-minded people, so I fell in love with it, you know, right from the get-go, and it’s just something that has not even snowballed, because it’s been so gradual and, you know, so steady, and I’ve just kept at it for such a long time because I genuinely really love it. I love connecting with people online and talking about things that I love and finding other people that love them too.

Sarah: When I graduated college in the late ‘90s, I had taught myself HTML and I started blogging because that was, you know, I wanted to do, and I was like, Wow, you can just sort of show up and write? Like, you could just write whatever you want? You just show up and do it?

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: And, like, blogging software wasn’t a thing. I had to code my own archives. I hated the end of the month.

Lucy: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And I remember thinking, I can just say, I, I can just do it. Like, there’s, I have to be the editor –

Lucy: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and I have to be the programmer, but I can just do it, and it’s here. And –

Lucy: A whole new, like, writing freedom –

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: – that no one had really tucked into, yeah.

Sarah: And it is a really lonely time immediately after you graduate, because you really are like, Oh –

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: – you know, I don’t have a lesson plan; I don’t have a syllabus; I don’t have a schedule. I have to figure this out now by myself.

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: And I don’t have instant –

Lucy: Yeah. There’s, there’s no routine; there’s no one kind of guiding you along anymore. You’re just out – everyone’s normally in a terrible relationship at that point and has attracted terrible friends around them, and it’s just a really messy time, so yeah, for me it, it certainly came at the right time. I’ve always been a hardcore internet kid from being very young –

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: – you know. I was a, a MySpace kid through and through. Like, you talking about doing your own coding and stuff like LiveJournal –

Sarah: Oh!

Lucy: – that kind of thing. I was all over that back in the day.

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Lucy: So it makes sense that I’m also very much like an internet grownup too.

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Lucy: I think that was always going to be in my… [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah. So as a social media creator, I am very curious about how you approached social media as an author and what advice you have for authors in any format, whether it’s text or photographs or video to camera or video filming. Like, what are, what is your advice that you have for authors, and how have you approached it?

Lucy: So it’s certainly something that I am trying to figure out how to navigate at the moment, because I’ve kind of made the, made the jump now from being a book content creator as someone that just loves to read –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: – and talk about books all the time, to realizing that maybe that kind of review space and, you know, where I was residing previously is not necessarily somewhere that authors comfortably sit anymore, so I’m trying to figure out how that changes for me at the moment. So in that respect, I’m not entirely sure that I am one to give advice right now, ‘cause I’m trying to navigate that for myself at the moment. It’s been a change that I, I didn’t really anticipate because, you know, I’m, I’m scrolling through the content I previously loved and enjoyed watching, and then I see a review for my own book pop up, and I have to very quickly scroll through it, ‘cause I’m trying to, you know, protect myself from stumbling across those as much as I can. So that’s been an interesting change that I’m trying to navigate at the moment, but I think generally in terms of content creation, I am very much a Make it as relatable as possible –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: – kind of girl. That’s what has always worked best for me is, you know, keeping it very down to earth and very chatty and open, and a little bit of vulnerability goes a long way on the internet, I think? And yeah, I think it’s just about creating something that you would also really enjoy to watch, like, for instance, going to the factory to see where the book was made. Those little kind of behind-the-scenes snippets and taking people along on these experiences that they might be interested in, that, that works well! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah. I have always found –

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: – that the things that I am enthusiastic and curious and, and, like, the thing where I think, I am probably the only person who is going to think this is cool, but I’m going to do it anyway?

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: I am always wrong. I am always wrong.

Lucy: Absolutely!

Sarah: Always wrong.

Lucy: It’s a good reminder that, you know, no one has a unique experience or interest, really. There are hundreds of thousands of other people just like you out there. If you love something, the chances are a lot of other people will too.

Sarah: Everyone is weird in unique ways. [Laughs]

Lucy: Exactly! You feel like you’re the biggest weirdo out there, and then you go on the internet and it turns out there’s a lot of others just like you! [Laughs]

Sarah: We’re all in here. Just, that’s why we’re here!

Lucy: Exactly!

Sarah: We’re all here ‘cause we’re weird.

Lucy: Just, just got to find your people!

Sarah: Yep!

Would you like some advice about interacting with or dealing with reviews if you do seen one?

Lucy: Oh – hit me!

Sarah: Okay!

Lucy: I would love some! [Laughs]

Sarah: Okay. I used to give a whole workshop about this, ‘cause I –

Lucy: Oh, interesting!

Sarah: – I’ve been reviewing romances for almost twenty years online, and we are, we are very critical! We have, you know, rant reviews and squee reviews and, so here’s my advice to you:

It is so hard when it’s your first book. It is so hard. And eventually you and your book will move farther apart, because the book is not you to the reader. The book is not – the reader who reviews your book is not reviewing you. They’re reviewing –

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: – your performance; they’re reviewing the argument that you made, basically; the, the, the story that these people are going to live this life and have this happy ending. They’re reviewing what you wrote, but they are not reviewing you, and that is a very hard separation, because your name is on the cover, and they do say your name a lot. That is part of it.

Lucy: [Laughs] Yes.

Sarah: I get it, ‘cause I’ve been both, and I am both an author and a reviewer, and I agree, there can be a lot of tension there. And it is very hard to separate yourself from your book, but the farther away you get from publication, the easier it is to see your book and you as separate things. I once gave a workshop with a panel talking about reviews and how to interact with reviews, and an author just said, The best solution to a bad review is to write another book.

Lucy: [Laughs]

Sarah: Because once you’ve got, like –

Lucy: Revenge!

Sarah: Right! Well, not only is it revenge, like, spite, anger, and frustration can be great motivators, but also the more –

Lucy: Absolutely.

Sarah: – books you have, the less acute it is when someone critiques one of them. Like, it’s, it’s –

Lucy: Yeah, I think I’ve been struggling with is, obviously, ‘cause I only have this one out at the moment –

Sarah: It’s hard!

Lucy: – that has, it has one hundred percent of my heart.

Sarah: Yes!

Lucy: Whereas maybe, I don’t know, three or four books down the line, if I’m lucky enough to come up with the ideas?

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: Each one will only have maybe twenty-five percent of my heart –

Sarah: Yes.

Lucy: – so. It’s all just so new and fresh at the moment –

Sarah: Yes.

Lucy: – and I mean, I don’t think I’ll ever forget the moment of seeing my first absolute stinker of a review for the first time, no. I’ve never experienced heartbreak quite like it, I don’t think – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yep.

Lucy: – but, I mean, in some ways it sort of throws you in at the deep end?

Sarah: Yes.

Lucy: And then you think, well, I’ve seen the worst now, so we’re over it, and that’s good, and we’ve got it out of the way?

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: Yeah, it’s just a, a really big learning curve, every part of the publication process, and –

Sarah: It is.

Lucy: – that is really good advice. I appreciate that.

Sarah: Here’s the number one thing to remember when you encounter a negative review of your book. Okay, this is the only thing you need to remember:

Did they spell your name right? And did they say the name of your book? If yes, it’s actually good. Okay?

Lucy: Because it’s made an impact, I guess.

Sarah: Well, yeah, that? It’s made an impact. Do you have any idea how many books have been released since you and I started talking twenty-five minutes ago? So –

Lucy: I can’t even imagine.

Sarah: – so many books, but they said yours. They said the name of your book, your book’s name and your name! So that’s good! You’ve got someone’s attention! That’s actually a win! And number two:

Everyone wants to know where someone else’s line of bad is. Squeeing and praise and oh my God unhinged joy is fun, but that is not going to connect to people, and what reader reviews are doing is helping readers identify other readers whose taste align with theirs. This is all about taste alignment. It’s not, it’s not even about your book at this point. It’s all about where our tastes align. And, you ever go to the fridge and you see something a little funky? And you take it out and you go, This smells weird. And you give it to someone, like if your partner’s standing there be like, Does this smell weird? They’re going to sniff it! A hundred percent! Like, I’ve given this workshop, and I will just casually pick up one of the glasses that, you know, the hotel puts on the table, and I’ll just pick up the glass like I’m going to drink out of it, and I’m talking about, you know, your line of bad and where your line of bad is and, and if it matches up with someone else, then you know that that person’s tastes align with yours, and you’re going to like what they like, and you’re not going to like what they don’t like, and this is amazing. So I’m holding the glass and I go – [sniffs] – This smells weird! And I hold it out. The whole front row will lean forward and try to take a sniff!

Lucy: [Laughs]

Sarah: Everybody instinctively wants to know, wait, does it smell weird? Is this not good? Is this not for me? The line of Oh, I don’t like this, is a line of connection. So even if – and it is so painful – when your book is the line of someone else’s I didn’t like this, that’s okay, because someone else is going to look at that and go, Oh shit, I love all those things? The number one way for me to sell books on my site is to say This book had too much sex in it.

Lucy: [Laughs]

Sarah: And somebody’s going to be like, I’m sorry, what? If you look at reviews and it’s like F: This book was filthy. I’m sorry, could you tell me the name one more time? I missed, I missed that.

Lucy: [Laughs] Sorry, what was that? I just –

Sarah: Could you say the name – who, who, all right, so who wrote this? Okay…

Lucy: Sounds terrible. Tell me more!

Sarah: So there was too much sex in it! So just remember, if they said your name right and they said the name of your book, other people critiquing your work is just trying to figure out where their tastes align, and it actually doesn’t have anything to do with you, because it’s done. You can’t change it.

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: So –

Lucy: That is excellent advice.

Sarah: – remember that.

So what are your personal best practices for content creation? How do you organize and do your own production? What is your process like?

Lucy: It’s very bold of you to assume I have a process of any kind.

[Laughter]

Lucy: I wish I was a person that used processes. I feel like it would make my own life a whole lot easier.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Lucy: But I’m very much someone that is just pulled by ideas –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: – and as soon as I get an idea that hooks me in, I can’t think about anything else until it’s done. I get very obsessive about the idea until I’ve created it and seen it through, which I guess is how a book came to be. But very much on a smaller scale as well, you know, whether that’s an Instagram Reel or a TikTok or some, some idea that fascinates me enough that I want to create that. I try – I think I’ve said this a couple of times – I just try and dive in and not overthink it too much and, you know, try and catastrophize it too much or imagine, What if I put two days of effort into this and then it bombs and it doesn’t go anywhere? Like, I’ve really tried to retrain my brain to think the complete opposite direction and just think, Oh, what if it does really well? This would be great! This would be a really fun piece of content to make. So I try and really dive in headfirst, go for it, and see what happens. When it comes to content creation, I think just putting yourself out there is the trickiest part, and trusting your ideas a little bit is often also a very tricky part, but – and strangely enough, with content creation as well, it tends to be the things that you think are going to do great that completely flop, and the things that you think are not even worth bothering with –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: – that completely take off and, you know, earn you a whole lot of new readers. So it’s an unpredictable beast, but I think that just adds to this idea that you should just dabble in lots of different things and throw it all against the wall and, and see what sticks, you know?

Sarah: And you’re, like you mentioned earlier, chasing the things that you’re interested in because you’re curious about them, because eventually you figure out –

Lucy: Yeah!

Sarah: – someone else is interested too.

Lucy: Yeah. I mean, it’s nice to have a, you know, a bit of a, a theme or a brand to what you’re creating out there, but in terms of how you present that to people, whether it’s very sincere and reflective and vulnerable, or whether it’s something really silly and viral –

Sarah: Yeah?

Lucy: – you know, try it all and, and see what works, and yeah. You can have fun with it, rather than overthinking it into oblivion. Just have fun with it. That is what it’s for in the end.

Sarah: Yeah. And, for example, one of your videos, you were doing outfits based on all of the things that Meg Ryan wears in When Harry Met Sally.

Lucy: [Laughs] Nice!

Sarah: You’re recreating all these outfits, and I’ve seen that movie like a bazillion times. Like, that was –

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: – a huge movie when it came out, and it’s been, like, perennial; it doesn’t go away. And I was just sort of struck by the fact that, like, Wow! All of this fashion is still current! Like, if I saw somebody out on the street –

Lucy: Oh, absolutely!

Sarah: – I wouldn’t be like, Oh my God, she’s dressed like Harry with, like When Harry Met Sally from the ‘90s! Who is this person? Are they a time traveler? No! All of this fashion still works!

Lucy: Meg Ryan is forever.

Sarah: Meg Ryan is perennial.

Lucy: [Laughs]

Sarah: That must have been a lot of fun. Were you actually shopping for that, or did you just go in your closet and go Holy shit, I’m Meg Ryan; let me show everybody?

Lucy: I, honestly, a lot of that, I think watching the movie – you know, I’ve seen that movie God knows how many times – and you can spot things that you recognize from your own wardrobe, and it, you know, it’s the tiny little moments like that that you can create content from. If, you just have to kind of train your brain into thinking that way a little bit? And kind of what I was saying about, you know, you have an overarching vibe or a feeling –

Sarah: Yes.

Lucy: – to your profile, and mine is very soft cozy and autumnal and that branches off –

Sarah: And nostalgia.

Lucy: Absolutely! That branches off into lots of different ways, whether that’s books, fashion, you know, my own story, my personal life. I come at it all with that same angle, so it does all fit together in this strange kind of enmeshed kind of way.

Sarah: And in a way you’re also recognizing yourself. Because you’re like, Oh, wait a minute. Meg Ryan in this movie had a really deep effect on my aesthetic, my style, the way I want to present myself in the world, the way I feel about myself, and it, you actually recreated all of these outfits. Like, Oh! This is, not only is this still contemporary and current in terms of style, but it’s also recognizable!

Lucy: Yeah. Absolutely, and it’s like what we were saying about how, you know, you think you’re the only one that’s got a –

Sarah: Yes!

Lucy: – wardrobe full of Meg Ryan-style clothing –

Sarah: Yes.

Lucy: – but the, the lovely community that I’ve built over the years is really testament to the fact that that’s not the case at all! Like –

Sarah: No. People are into it.

Lucy: – you know, there’s a lot of girls following that, you know, also grew up with those movies and reach for the same cardigans and trouser combo every year and –

Sarah: Yep.

Lucy: – have an affinity to autumn, and it’s funny how you, you kind of gather this community around you.

Sarah: Yep! And also memory and nostalgia are also a form of magic.

Lucy: Oh, absolutely. I’m a firm believer in that.

Sarah: Yeah, because you, looking back and having a connection to something that someone else shares as well is very magical! It’s very serendipitous. You don’t always know what you’re going to have in common with someone, especially if it’s like a, a movie from, you know, forty years ago, thirty years ago.

Lucy: Yeah. Absolutely. And it, and it is one of those really magical moments? You know, you meet someone for the first time, and you kind of start getting along, and then you find that kind of invisible string that’s connected –

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: – you both the whole time. It’s, it’s really lovely when that happens, and it can happen online too!

Sarah: Yes, it, it does all of the time.

Lucy: Yeah!

Sarah: So what books are you reading that you want to tell people about?

Lucy: So it’s, it’s funny that we were just talking about When Harry Met Sally, actually, because I’ve just started, I got an advance copy of a new book by B. K. Borison?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: Who is a romance author. Previously very successful with the Lovelight Farms series –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: – I think they are called, but this is –

Sarah: Yep.

Lucy: – a new trilogy, and the first one is called First-Time Caller which is the one that I’m reading at the moment, and this trilogy are based around Nora Ephron movies? They’re inspired –

Sarah: Oh –

Lucy: – by the Nora Ephron films.

Sarah: Oh God.

Lucy: And this, this First-Time Caller one is like a local radio station, grumpy meets sunshine kind of vibe, very autumnal, and this first one is inspired by Sleepless in Seattle, and soon as I heard that tagline I was like, Well, I’m in! [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, there we go.

Lucy: That’s me! I’m in! So I’m –

Sarah: And it takes place in Baltimore! [Laughs]

Lucy: Yeah, exactly! Like, can you believe it?

Sarah: Ha! How serendipitous.

Lucy: Yeah, so I’m like a third of the way through that and just absolutely obsessed with it. It’s now my main personality trait, to be honest. I’m telling everyone how much I’m enjoying this book, and it’s just, it feels so fluffy and warm and lovely, because I just finished the new Sally Rooney, so I really needed to go the other end of the spectrum and just read something that made my heart very happy – [laughs] – and I found it in this First-Time Caller.

Sarah: Oh, that – I love the cover, too.

Lucy: Well, it’s beautiful. The, the vibes are just immaculate, honestly. I’m all over it. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. You have two different covers for your book. The UK and the US edition are, are slightly different from one another. What did you think –

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: – of each of them? I’m not going to ask you to choose, because that would be unkind.

Lucy: Yeah, absolutely! I mean, I, I do feel like they’re some of the most beautiful books I’ve ever seen. I know I’m very biased – [laughs] – with both covers. I can’t believe how fortunate I’ve been. So I’ve seen, it was the UK one that came first and that I worked very closely on. I was really lucky to get to work really closely on the whole process. And when I heard we were getting a different one for the US, I was a little bit nervous about it, just because I wasn’t going to be as involved, and I, I knew the UK illustrator. I’d worked with her previously on some of my social media work, so I was very confident that she would create something beautiful for Rewitched, but I knew that I wasn’t going to have that same amount of control with the US cover –

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: – so I was slightly nervous about it, but I couldn’t believe it when it came through, because it’s, it’s honestly just as perfect to me? Like, that whole –

Sarah: Yes.

Lucy: – ‘90s nostalgic witch vibe; they just got it absolutely spot on. I think it’s beautiful.

Sarah: The, the US cover, with the, with, with Belladonna sitting in the window with the cat, with the books all around her, it almost looks like a tarot card.

Lucy: I love that! I hadn’t –

Sarah: It looks –

Lucy: – really thought about that, but I love that tie-in.

Sarah: It looks a lot like a tarot card. I think that’s a new trend in cover illustration, that they kind of look like tarot cards. There’s all of these elements combining with a frame around them in some way.

Lucy: Yeah, beautiful.

Sarah: They look like tarot cards. What’s fascinating is that the color schemes for both are very, very similar.

Lucy: Yeah! I think, you know, when you’re presented with a, a comforting, cozy story –

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: – those are the colors you’re kind of drawn to? There’s something about that really kind of magical autumnal color scheme that just – yeah, they both tie in really well together. I, I just couldn’t love them more, honestly. [Laughs]

Sarah: Did you have to put your head between your knees when you saw them?

Lucy: [Laughs] I was slightly bewildered by how perfect they came out, because, I mean, I’ve been very fortunate in this whole process, but you do hear stories of authors who absolutely hate their own covers –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Lucy: – you know. They won’t, don’t feel attached to them at all and kind of want nothing to do with them, but I, I couldn’t be prouder of both of them. [Laughs]

Sarah: I have done interviews with people where we talked about cover design and art and how the cover fits the book, and then after I stopped recording the person would be like, I just need to tell you, I hate this cover so much –

Lucy: [Laughs]

Sarah: – I can’t stand it? Here’s why I hate it. I can’t put this – this is off the record, and I’m like, Just tell me everything. I’m curious why you hate it. Because sometimes you’re right; the vision that someone has in their head does not match the cover, which is marketing.

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: And I do not think in marketing. It is not my, my natural inclination to think in how to market what I’m doing. I, I’m not very good at it, but the cover is marketing, and there are times where I’m like, I don’t understand how this cover relates to this book, but okay! Somebody knows more than me, I assume. I hope.

Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. You have to remember that, like, all of the elements of publishing cannot be yours. Like, you are really just –

Sarah: Yes!

Lucy: – just the storyteller, and there’s people who are much better at their jobs in their…

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Lucy: – process that can make those decisions. But, I mean, very luckily, I’ve been hand-in-hand with them the whole way, which is –

Sarah: Yes.

Lucy: – a lovely bonus

Sarah: Are there any other books you’re reading that you want to tell people about?

Lucy: Yeah. It’s been interesting to realize that I am actually not very good at reading and writing at the same time as well, so while my, while my brain has been very much buried in book two, I’ve struggled to find the headspace for reading time as well? Which –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lucy: – was not something I was anticipating, really.

Sarah: Well, the input and the output are two different brain processes, and –

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: – sometimes you need to stop the output before you can do the input.

Lucy: Yeah! When you put it like that, that makes a lot of sense! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah.

Lucy: Yeah.

Sarah: Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Lucy: Oh, where can they not find me? Unfortunately, I am at –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Lucy: Unfortunately, I’m extremely available online. Basically, if you look for Lucy Jane Wood across Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, you will find me over there. [Laughs]

Sarah: You’re the only one.

Lucy: For my sins.

Sarah: It works!

[Laughter]

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Lucy Jane and to Daché Rogers for setting up this interview. I will have links to the books that we mentioned, especially Rewitched, and I have both covers, so you can take a look and tell me which one you like better. And that’ll be in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 640! That’s a big number; it has a zero on the end! I’m not having feelings about that number, though. I do have feelings about my age sometimes, but not about the number of the podcast, except to go Wow! That’s a big number! [Laughs]

I will also have links to all the places where you can find Lucy Jane Wood’s content, and indeed, her channel is cozy.

As always, I end with a terrible joke, and this joke is from Clay. Hi, Clay!

What do you call an apology written in dots and dashes?

Give up? What do you call an apology written in dots and dashes?

Remorse code.

[Laughs] I…took a class in high school where my final was based on whether or not I had learned Morse code. It was a pretty cool class. I almost got my ham radio license in that class. That was quite, quite an interesting elective in high school. But do I remember it? No. I have no Morse code, nor remorse code. Thank you for the joke, Clay!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[end of music]