632. Being Fine with Friends, with Jolenta Greenberg and Kristen Meinzer

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there. Thank you for joining me. This is episode number 632 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I am Sarah Wendell. Joining me today are Jolenta Greenberg and Kristen Meinzer. Jolenta and Kristen are podcasting powerhouses; you might know them from their show By the Book and their show How to Be Fine. This season on How to Be Fine, they are looking at friendship, and it is fascinating. We’re going to talk about the research behind sustaining friendships, ending friendships, and creating new connections with people. They have joined me to talk all about the development of the show and what’s going on, so if you’re not listening already you can find How to Be Fine – With Friends wherever you get your tasty podcasts.

I do want to give you a WARNING that in the beginning we have a very, very short discussion of diet culture and diet books with disordered eating just after the intro, but it is very, very short.

I also want to say hello and thank you to our Patreon community. We have so many new members, and I have a compliment! I’m so excited.

To Rachel: If you were to map out all of the footsteps you’ve taken around your home, you would see that they spell out WARM, KINDNESS, and HOLY CRAP FUNNY, because you are all of those things every step of your life.

If you would like a compliment of your very own or you would like to support the show, you can do both of those things by going to patreon.com/SmartBitches. Every pledge keeps me going, makes sure that every episode has a transcript from garlicknitter – hey, garlicknitter! [Hey, Sarah! – gk] – and you’re making sure that every episode is accessible. In return you get bonus episodes; the full PDF scan of that wondrous magazine we’re recapping, Romantic Times; and a lovely, lovely Discord.

I also want to say a big HELLO to Melinda, who’s also one of our newest members.

If you’d like to join Patreon community, we would love to have you. Have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

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I will have links to all of the books and shows and podcasts that we talk about in this episode in the show notes, but I’m sure you knew that. But for now, let’s get started: on with my conversation all about friendship with Jolenta Greenberg and Kristen Meinzer.

[music]

Jolenta Greenberg: I’m Jolenta Greenberg. I’m a comedian and podcaster, and along with my dear friend Kristen Meinzer, who you’ll meet in a few, I’ve hosted the podcast By the Book, and I now host How to Be Fine with her.

Kristen Meinzer: And I’m Kristen Meinzer, and yes, Jolenta and I co-host How to Be Fine and By the Book. And By the Book is a reality show in podcast form, where we live by the rules of different self-help books in every episode; that is a Patreon-only show. And How to Be Fine is kind of a mixture of reality show and expert interview show, where one episode we’ll talk with an expert about a topic, and then the following episode Jolenta and I will record ourselves applying that expert advice in the world. And so it’s kind of alternating. Do you want to hear experts, or do you want to hear us live by expert advice? Most people – [laughs] – want to hear both –

Jolenta: Uh-huh.

Kristen: – and, and they like to, you know, get some authority, and then they like to see us screw up our lives. So that’s what we do on How to Be Fine.

Sarah: I have been listening to both of you for a very long time. I remember very clearly an early episode of By the Book where I think you did an – I want to say it was French Women Don’t Get Fat?

Kristen: Oh yeah.

Jolenta: I’m sure it was, yeah.

Sarah: And you were like, We are not doing diet books; we are not doing books that are going to upset anybody’s eating disorders; we are not doing any of this –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Sarah: – anymore, and I was like, Oh my gosh –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – I love you guys!

[Laughter]

Jolenta: Yeah.

Sarah: That is such an important baseline of trust; it’s really important!

Kristen: We really have stuck to that, and it’s, it’s just not good for us. The idea that we have to be a certain size to be acceptable in this world? It’s such nonsense! It really is.

Jolenta: Oh yeah.

Sarah: That parlays into friendship, too, because there’s a – it’s so interesting to me how there’s this – you know I’m a romance podcaster, and I run a website –

Jolenta: Yes!

Sarah: – about romance. There are a lot of messages and, and scripts socially what to do when someone you know has met someone, when someone’s in a relationship, when you’re in a relationship, when someone you know goes through a breakup, when you go through a breakup. You kind of know there’s, there’s, there’s goalposts and signs and, and scripts, and we –

Jolenta: Mm.

Sarah: – kind of know what to say. Friendship is this sort of weird area where you don’t have a set of scripts, and you aren’t necessarily encouraged to show up as you are and be who you are without being told, Oh, you have to be this particular way or this type, this type of person to find friends. You have to be this kind of extraverted person, which, for the record, I am not. It’s –

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: – it, it, they, they blend together or they, they evolve from one another very easily.

Kristen: Yeah. Absolutely, and that’s a lot of what we’re exploring this season on How to Be Fine. You know, what should we be doing as friends? What are going to be the most, you know, fruitful efforts that we put out there? When is it actually a good idea to break up with friends? We have an episode that is kind of awkward and kind of painful where Jolenta and I have to, you know, manage BFF breakups in it. You know –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kristen: – what is it like to have tough conversations when you work with a friend? Jolenta and I actually essentially have a sit-down therapy session talking about –

Sarah: It’s so hard.

Kristen: – all the good and bad things –

Jolenta: [Laughs]

Kristen: – about working together, so yeah! It’s not necessarily always explored or talked about in our society with the same focus as romance. Romance –

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: – there is a script. Romance –

Sarah: Yes!

Kristen: – there’s a whole world of books, as you were saying, Sarah, both fiction and nonfiction, about romance. And friendship, you know, I, it’s not that there aren’t books about that, but it can be a lot more complicated, and a lot of the things friends go through are not necessarily acceptable to talk about in polite company.

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: We don’t necessarily encourage each other to say, Tell me about your BFF breakups that you’ve gone through, even though most of us have gone through them? Whereas we do talk frankly about what was your worst breakup with a partner –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kristen: – or whatnot?

Sarah: I did a book event when my second book came out in 2009 with an author named Jodyne Speyer, who wrote a book called Dump ‘Em: How to Break Up with Anyone from Your Best –

Kristen: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – Best Friend to Your Hairdresser.

Kristen: Oooh!

Sarah: And we’re doing these events together through this, I, I want to say it was like the Jewish Book Festival or the – they, they, you, you audition, and then different Jewish community centers will invite you to come and give a book talk. So we were both in Texas, and I don’t know – I guess they put me, the romance person, with Jodyne, the breakup person –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – but we had a great time, because I was like, Wait, there really, there, there isn’t a book about how to get rid of people in your life that aren’t, are, that are hurting you, or end relationships that don’t work anymore.

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: There’s no script! And I was like, Wow, in 2009, that was, that was, like, mind-blowing to me that there was this whole book. And yet it’s still true: there isn’t an established script; there isn’t like a here’s, here’s, here are signs that friendships are good! And here are signs that our friendships are not so great. What led you to this season of, of How to Be Fine – With Friends?

Jolenta: Our own lives. [Laughs]

Sarah: Fair!

Jolenta: I’m like, our own lives and a lot of listener feedback.

Sarah: Oh, interesting!

Jolenta: We often take advice questions, and we have just a really lively Facebook community where people ask each other for advice, and one of the topics that we came across most was How do I make friends as an adult? How do I make friends at this new job? How do I make friends now that I’ve moved to this new city? And there are just, there seem to be a huge lack of resources in regard to, you know, some of the most important relationships we have in our lives, our friendships! And so that, coupled with both of us experiencing, you know, friendship shifts in our lives –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jolenta: Kristen was having a bunch of friends move out of the city, and she was trying to cope with that.

Sarah: I listened to that episode, yeah.

Jolenta: Yeah, and for me personally, I’m taking chemo medication for an autoimmune disease, and so I’m navigating, like, how do I maintain friendships while still having to be COVID-conscious when, you know, the entire world isn’t? So that, our two circumstances, mixed with just so much listener feedback about friendship, made us go, like, Wait a minute, we have to explore this more.

Sarah: It’s weird to have to remind people, now people need care, and it’s hard to be in a position to say, No, I need extra care from you, even though our relationship may be very superficial and we may not know each other very well, and we haven’t shared –

Jolenta: Right

Sarah: – our deepest, darkest secrets or talked about weird body stuff yet. I need you to be very careful of my body. It’s a very intimate thing to ask somebody you don’t know very well; it’s hard!

Jolenta: Yeah –

Sarah: Yeah!

Jolenta: – it’s a strange, it’s a strange place to be in.

Sarah: And it’s weird because when you approach friendship, you want to achieve intimacy, but you can’t do it too quickly and, you know, in, in romantic relationships it’s like, Do you guys want to go to Bone Town on the first date? Go ahead. Great, sure!

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: Awesome!

Jolenta: [Laughs] Yeah!

Sarah: Head straight to Bone Town! Be –

Jolenta: Yes.

Sarah: – physically intimate. Find out all the weird things that make your body happy. Sounds great! You want to do that within the first five hours? Fantastic. You can’t do that with friendship as easily.

Jolenta: No, no.

Sarah: No.

Kristen: Yeah. And, and it’s not always –

Jolenta: Can’t have like a friendship one night stand.

Sarah: No!

Kristen: Yeah!

Jolenta: Yeah!

Kristen: And it’s not always as clear what the signals are we’re getting from potential friends –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kristen: – as it is the signals that we have been raised our whole lives to send off or to receive when it comes to sex, right?

Sarah: Yeah, for sure!

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: It, it can be a lot harder to read those signals with, with a friend. I mean, one of my very best friends in the world, we both laugh about the first time we met. We both thought the other was just a bitch, and we love each other so much, and now, you know, we talk on the phone every single week, and I would, she could call me up any time of day and say, I accidentally killed someone, and I would get on the next flight with a shovel, and I would hide the body for her. I love her so much, but yeah, at first we didn’t jibe right away! The signals were not clear; there was not going to be a friend one night stand or a friend lifetime friendship. None of those things seemed like they were going to happen. It’s, it’s, it’s different with friends.

Sarah: It’s a real, like, advanced level social interaction. I mean, especially –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Sarah: – reading cues, which I’m not, also not very good at.

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: What do you think are the factors that make it more difficult for people to find or, or deepen their friendships? Because I think the universal feeling that I have encountered is, Gosh, I wish I had more close friends; I wish I had more friends. Especially because, talking about romantic expectations, there is a very strong message that your partner or partners should be your best friends, and they should fill all those roles –

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and I’m like, That’s not, not realistic for my life.

Kristen: No!…

Sarah: I am sorry; I like my, my spouse so much! He’s great! But that’s not a role he can fill in every way!

Jolenta: Yeah. Yeah. He’s not going to be the most fun person to go shopping with, or at least in my case he’s not.

[Laughter]

Kristen: Mine isn’t.

Sarah: No. So, Jolenta, what do you think are the factors that make it difficult?

Jolenta: Yeah. No, one factor that we’ve heard a lot about from experts, and I think we experience, is self-doubt? Like, often we’ll think of someone or consider reaching out to someone and be like, Oh, they’re busy; they don’t want to hear from me. Or like, It’s been too long; it’ll be weird. And we tend to hold ourselves back from opening up and reaching out.

Sarah: Yeah! Because –

Kristen: Yeah.

Sarah: – you, you listen to, you listen to your internal voice going, Oh, they’re not that into me. The real –

Jolenta: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: And, you know, I’m, I’m being annoying.

Kristen: Yeah.

Jolenta: Like, yeah, I don’t have that much to offer.

Sarah: Yeah. What about you, Kristen? What do you think are the things that get in the way?

Kristen: Well, in our modern age, I think a lot of us, especially since COVID, have kind of fallen out of practice of just having everyday conversations with people –

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: – small interactions with people who psychologists or scholars would call loose-tie people in our life? And those loose ties keep us practiced and keep those, you know, muscles agile, those friend-making muscles, and a lot of us don’t really have conversations with loose-tie people anymore. We don’t talk with the janitor or the front desk person in the office anymore; a lot of us don’t. A lot of us got into the habit of just having things delivered to our house, so we’re not talking with our neighbors in the grocery store or with the cashier, and so falling out of that habit is something that a lot of our experts point out, and they say, Get back in that habit. I’m not saying that the cashier at the grocery store is going to be your best friend, but that helps keep you in practice. That helps open you up to the world and be a part of the world, and when we’re a part of the world, we’re more likely to connect with other people in the world.

And, you know, being mindful, of course, that that doesn’t have to be indoors. We, we still talk about COVID consciousness all the time on our show, especially, you know, not just because of Jolenta, but we have immunocompromised listeners, family members, and so on that we have to be careful for. But it can be, you know, going out and walking in your park; being in public places; and, you know, going to your community fridge on the corner; and that’s all outside, but you can talk to people at those spots, you know?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kristen: And then one other thing that has really jumped out to me is several experts have pointed out social media isn’t necessarily a villain, but how we use social media can help us or hinder us in some ways when it comes to socializing.

Jolenta: Yeah.

Kristen: Are we only using –

Sarah: That’s interesting.

Kristen: – social media for compare and despair? That’s not going to help us feel good about ourselves! That’s not going to encourage us to reach out to others. It’s just going to make us feel lousy. And the better way to use it is, Oh, I have not complimented so-and-so in so long; let me go and like some of her posts. Or, Oh my gosh, there’s something happening in my community here that I see posted on Facebook. Let me invite other friends to it. It’s an outdoor movie! Let’s all go to this outdoor movie next week! You know, there are things that we can do on social media that are more about connection rather than lurking or comparison.

Sarah: It’s so interesting, ‘cause you mentioned you have a very active Facebook group, and I, I deleted my Facebook, I want to say 2017? 2018? Like, a long time ago; I deleted all of my old Facebook.

Kristen: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And then I realized I was missing out because of Facebook Groups in my neighborhood and in my community being so active?

Kristen: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And I was like –

Jolenta: Mmm.

Kristen: Yeah.

Sarah: – Well, damn it! Now I have to get back on stinking Facebook.

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: I figured –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Sarah: I figured the trade was like, Well, I really don’t use Twitter as much anymore, so maybe I have a little bit more time for a positive interaction, and I have to say the groups that I’m a part of are very positive communities. Like, hey –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – I am this weird bra size; what do you recommend? And then there’s thirty comments of, You are great; I’m the same size. Here’s the one for me. This is the one that, this one’s on sale! Go to this shop. And it’s like –

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: – Oh, I forgot! You’re right! You can use social media to be a positive and, and –

Kristen: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – community space, and that’s one of the things –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Sarah: – I value most about my website, honestly. I mean, I’m a blogger, I’m operating some very old technology, but our community in the comments is very supportive –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – and wants you to find the book you want to read. Like, that’s the whole point: we want you to all find –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Sarah: – the books you want to read. Those spaces are so much online, they’re not as much in person, and being able to use the online to move them into the real world is very useful. What are some things that make it easier, do you think, to interact with more people, in addition to social media? What are the, what are the methods that you’ve tried on your show for building or keeping friendships?

Jolenta: A super simple one is, like, reach out to people when you think of them? Like, they like, they like hearing it? And like Kristen already said, just getting in the practice of talking to people; being, you know, maybe a hint vulnerable when it’s appropriate; just, you know, learning about other people and their experiences in the world; that, that all helps.

Kristen: One thing that has been brought up by our experts is, you know, it may be scary to do this, but most people, when we go to social gatherings, whether it’s a picnic in the park or, you know, somebody’s wedding, we tend to only talk to the people we came to the event with.

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: The vast majority of people do that, and just the simple act of deciding, I’m not going to just hang out at this event with the people I know, means that you are far more likely to leave the party energized, happy, and possibly with somebody who could be a new friend later, and most of us just don’t do that simple thing, and maybe it’s because it doesn’t feel simple. Maybe it’s because it feels scary, and something our experts have pointed out is that a lot of people you approach, though, will be grateful, because they wish somebody would approach them and talk to them.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kristen: And all you have to do is be curious. It’s not like you have to –

Jolenta: Mm.

Kristen: – like, be an expert or tell them something impressive. You don’t have to have a great repertoire of jokes. You can just be curious and talk to strangers at a party, and you don’t have to stay at the party all night. Just go over to the party for, you know, forty-five minutes, talk to people you don’t know, and it can make such a difference. And again, even if the people you talk with don’t end up being friends later –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kristen: – they’ll help you build those muscles up to be more confident, to be able to interact with the world in a way that says, I am a potential friend.

Sarah: And if you bring your closed circle of two into a larger circle and don’t break out of that circle, you –

Jolenta: Mm.

Sarah: – you really haven’t participated in that larger group anyway.

Jolenta: Right, yeah.

Kristen: Yes.

Sarah: I don’t know if this happens to you, but I love when the universe gives me a theme, like when I’ll be podcasting –

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and then I’ll, the same theme will come up in a bunch of different episodes. I just did an interview with a British author named Kristy Greenwood whose book is the Good Morning America book club selection this month. It’s called Love of Your, The Love of My Afterlife. One of the things that the author and I talked about was this book came out of her moving from a very, very, very small town in England to London and trying to make friends –

Jolenta: Mm.

Sarah: – in the city and how hard that is, and one of the things she said was, I started doing stuff that I liked by myself –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – because I knew that if I did – and it was, like, very specific things – she’s like, I do a whole class about musical theatre where we write and sing and, like, create a small musical. I’m going to be with people who I already know have a base level of stuff that I like, and I thought, Oh my gosh! That’s so simple, and why did I not think of that? [Laughs]

Jolenta: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: If you find the places where stuff, people are doing the stuff –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – that you do, you will find people who already have that commonality with you, as opposed to, Hello, random stranger; maybe we have nothing in common. Wait! Maybe you, like, disagree with my existence as a human; I should leave now. Like, that’s really scary!

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s justifiably scary –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – to meet people you don’t know, ‘cause they could, like, want to hate you without your realizing it! We live in a strange time.

Kristen: [Laughs]

Jolenta: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Is that something that your community talks about? The, the, the fear of meeting someone who might not even, not might be just, you know, not just unfriendly, but actively hostile to you as a person? Is that something that you’ve, that you’ve talked about at all?

Kristen: Oh, people bring it up all the time in our Facebook community. There’s a lot of fear; there’s a lot of –

Sarah: Yeah!

Kristen: – you know, rejection sensitivity –

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: – and of course; why not? And I think a lot of us have been taught that with romance there are going to be some dates that are duds, and that’s fine. Eventually you’ll find somebody you want to maybe date for a while or kiss for a few nights or whatnot, but, you know, I think even that, even though that’s scary, we’ve been trained to accept that that’s part of the dating process?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kristen: And I think we need to accept that that’s part of the friend-making process too.

Jolenta: Yeah.

Kristen: Not everyone’s going to be a BFF. Not everyone’s going to be a friend after this one picnic or after this one party. And maybe it is, you know, going to be really fun for a few days or a few weeks, or maybe even a few years, some friendships have a shelf like, and that’s totally fine too. It might be a friend –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kristen: – for a season, and that’s okay, but I, I wish we would accept that more, and, you know, it, it is something that our listeners talk about a lot in our Facebook community, that fear of, like, Oh God, but do I have to go up and talk to strangers? Oh God. It was so easy in college; in college we lived in the dorms together. In college –

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: – we worked our, you know, our, our student working jobs, and so we all were in this circumstance, and now I’m just not in circumstances where I can meet friends anymore and it’s scary. How do I put myself in those situations? And I’m so glad that you brought up common interests, Sarah, because one way that some of our listeners have actually made friends is by starting their own book clubs with each other, their own By the Book book clubs amongst themselves, where they –

Sarah: Amazing!

Kristen: – books and they meet up, and sometimes it’s just a love of a certain genre book is enough to get people together, right?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kristen: Are, are you also a nut for this kind of book or this kind of book? And one of our experts actually pointed out that the more specific your interest –

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: – the more likely you are to have people react and become friends with you? If you just say, Oh, I want a book club, or I want to start one, or I want to join one? You’re, you’re far less likely to get people to be invested than if you say, I want to start a YA book club for people who like books from the 1980s and ‘90s. You’ll get –

Sarah: Yes.

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: – so many more people interested in it than –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Sarah: I’m starting the –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Sarah: – Sweet Valley High book club. [Laughs]

Jolenta: Exactly!

Kristen: I want to be in that book club; please invite me.

Jolenta: You’ll meet better friends there than just, like, Hey, any Red Sox fans? We’re all going to a game! Like, you know, that’s pretty general, but if you’re like, Red Sox fans who also love Sweet Valley High and want to start a book club, let’s hang out!

Sarah: This is the perfect intersection.

Kristen: [Laughs]

Jolenta: Then, then all of a sudden –

[Laughter]

Jolenta: – you’re making friends!

Sarah: And it’s funny because one of the things I think a lot about is how social media, because you make connections – especially, for example, Facebook – you make connections with people at different stages of your lives, and it preserves those relationships long past what you might describe as their shelf life? Like, I’m not –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – I’m not necessarily meant to know the whole lives of everyone I graduated from high school with. It was a long time ago!

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s a lot of information…

Jolenta: But there they are on Instagram.

[Laughter]

Sarah: And I see their vacations, and I’m like, This is kind of weird that I’m just sort of eavesdropping on them –

Kristen: Yeah.

Sarah: – visually –

Jolenta: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and we’re preserving this, this connection in amber. Why are we doing that? Like, I, I’m not, I’m not getting anything out of this observational relationship; it’s very strange. But when you’re like, I want to start a book club talking about Sweet Valley High and Sweet Dreams, people are like, Uh, mm? What, yes? Okay!

Kristen: Yes!

Jolenta: Yeah!

Sarah: My weird niche –

Jolenta: Wait a minute!

Sarah: – interest matches your weird – so basically, the, the key to –

Jolenta: You’re my kind of person!

Sarah: Yeah! The key to friendship is we’re all weird, and we just have to find each others’ weird.

Jolenta: Yes. And we have to be, like, not too afraid of, like, showing a bit of that weirdness out, out in the world.

Sarah: Yeah. Well, I mean, the older you get, the easier it is to let your –

Jolenta: Right?

Sarah: – freak flag fly, right?

Jolenta: Very much –

Kristen: Yeah.

Jolenta: – learning that, yeah.

Sarah: My banner is –

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: – so big.

So could you tell me some of the things that you’ve tried that really resonated with you? And, and maybe some of the things you were like, Oh, hell no!?

Kristen: [Laughs]

Jolenta: One of the things, it, you do have to have a specific thing in your life, but one thing that I loved trying was meeting people through just walking my dog.

Sarah: Oh yes!

Jolenta: It’s, it’s such an easy in? Like, Oh, your dog’s so cute! How old is it? What kind is it? You know, and, like, definitely now my dog Frank and I, like, have a few regulars that we say Hey to and are much more familiar with than just, you know, acting like we’re meeting anew every single time we run into each other?

Sarah: My problem is I always remember the name of the dog more than I remember the name of the human.

Jolenta: Same, same.

[Laughter]

Jolenta: They do too is what I’m learning. They’re like, Hey, it’s Frank! And –

Sarah: Frank’s –

Kristen: Frank’s mom!

Jolenta: – hey!

Sarah: Frank’s mom!

Kristen: Hey, Frank’s mom!

Sarah: Yep!

Jolenta: Yeah, exactly.

Sarah: When my kids were little, I was [My child’s name] mom. Like, I didn’t have a first name? I was Alex’s mom!

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: So I get it, but it’s much more fun with dogs.

Jolenta: Yeah, yeah.

Kristen: [Laughs]

Jolenta: So that’s kind of fun, and that’s definitely helped me, like, just, you know, get to know people in my neighborhood more.

Sarah: And you’re all picking up poop, which means that you’re socially aware of your, your community responsibilities.

Jolenta: Right, yeah. Yep! We all got baggies. We can lend ‘em to each other if someone needs one.

Sarah: I’ve knocked on people’s doors that I know have dogs when I ran out of poop bags one time?

Jolenta: Ohhh!

Sarah: I’m like, Hi, I’m really sorry to bother you; I’ve run out of poop bags. They’re like –

Jolenta: [Gasps]

Sarah: – Oh my God! Just wait right there! I’ve got a roll; here you go!

Jolenta: Yeah, no problem! Yeah.

Sarah: And now I see that person and we always wave! But I’m like, Oh –

Jolenta: Oh my gosh! I love that!

Sarah: – that guy has a dog; I bet that, that guy’s cool with dog poop pickup bags. Let’s go, let’s go see.

Jolenta: Yeah.

Sarah: I was terrified, like, knocking on the door of somebody’s, some stranger…

Jolenta: Oh, I would have been too, yeah.

Sarah: But I got poop bags!

Jolenta: [Laughs]

Sarah: What about you, Kristen? What, like, super, super worked for you?

Kristen: Well, one of our experts suggested we try connecting with long-distance friends in the ways that we did in our early lockdown COVID days when we were all so excited! And we were having, you know, Zoom happy hours and  we were, you know, pulling out all the stops and trying to be really inventive?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kristen: And so I revisited something that I tried once with a friend, and it didn’t go very well at the beginning of COVID, which was, I think it was called Netflix Watch Party. We tried to watch a movie together.

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: Things didn’t, like, really sync up right? But we tried to redo that, and we came up with our own method of how, how to connect. We FaceTime with each other while we watch a movie together. We very specifically watch movies from the ‘80s and ‘90s or movies with stars from the ‘80s and ‘90s. Like, you know, we watched Irish Wish, for example, starring Lindsay Lohan, which is a new movie on Netflix, but it stars an old ‘90s star who we loved. And we loved it so much when we did it the first time that we now do it every three weeks on a schedule, every third Sunday of the month, and –

Sarah: That’s lovely!

Kristen: – or every third, every third Sunday, and I, she’s one of my many friends who moved away during COVID for greener pastures and lower real estate prices, and I miss her desperately.

Sarah: I can’t imagine why! Yeah!

Kristen: And yeah, and, and I miss her so desperately, but because of this Sunday night movie club, as we call it, I feel, like, just as connected to her as ever, and it’s one of the highlights of every, you know, month is this movie club I have with her.

Sarah: That’s so lovely! What have you guys tried that has not worked so well? Is there anything that you’re like, Well, this was not for me!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Oh, you’re laughing, so there have been many things. Go!

Jolenta: Kristen has better flop stories.

[Laughter]

Jolenta: Like, I have a day I went out and, like, there were no people walking dogs! And I was like, Oh no! There goes my plan.

Kristen: [Laughs]

Jolenta: Kristen, Kristen has a few bet-, better stories.

Kristen: Yeah. Yeah, for example, I did go to one social gathering, and I, you know, it was my husband, and a friend of a friend of his was having a social gathering, and I said, All right, I’m going to talk to each person at this social gathering. See you later, honey; we’ll check in when it’s time to leave the party. And I talked to every single person and tried to engage with them? But then I just, like, I forgot that these people are not my friends, and they don’t necessarily politically see the same problems or challenges in the world that I do –

Sarah: Ooh, yikes!

Kristen: – and maybe when I make a dismissive statement about Donald Trump, maybe that’s not going to be welcome, and that might actually alienate me from that person, and – [laughs] – so, yeah, that’s one example. Like –

Sarah: Yikes!

Kristen: – me talking to everybody at the party, I have to remember these people at the party are not necessarily people who jive with me? They –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Kristen: – may be people I can learn from, they might be people who have fascinating backstories, but they aren’t necessarily on the same page about all things. [Laughs] So that’s one example of a screw up.

And another one: we were advised to nurture intergenerational relationships, and I just loved that. I –

Jolenta: I loved this one, yeah.

Kristen: Yeah. It, it was so fun, and I, I love the idea of, you know, honoring wisdom from people who are older than me, I love connecting with kids and so on, but when I’m connecting with kids, I shouldn’t piss off the parents, is something that I realized. I went to a kid’s birthday party –

Jolenta: [Laughs]

Kristen: – and I didn’t understand what was going on. I got very easily manipulated by a kid into giving away all the cupcakes when the kids weren’t supposed to have sweets until the end of the party.

Sarah: Oh, they’re good at that. That’s not your fault.

Jolenta: The cupcakes were the cake…

Sarah: [Gasps]

Jolenta: – you know, so –

Kristen: I didn’t realize the cupcakes were technically the birthday cake?

Jolenta: – yeah.

Kristen: Yeah.

Jolenta: [Laughs] So they, they were broken into a bit early.

Kristen: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: Oh no.

Kristen: So that was an intergenerational flop, I guess you would say.

Jolenta: I mean, the kids loved the interaction, but –

Sarah: I mean, the kids are all your, the, the kids are all your best friend now!

Jolenta: Yeah, you –

Kristen: Oh yeah.

Jolenta: – you did make friends! [Laughs]

Kristen: I, I’m just very easily manipulated by a kid.

Sarah: I mean.

Kristen: Hey, Kristen! Da-da-da-da-da!

Jolenta: [Indistinct]

Kristen: Mama’s giving away cupcakes to everybody! Oh, she is? Yeah, yeah!

Jolenta: Oh, here’s one!

Kristen: Where are the rest of, where are the rest of them? Can you open them up? Yeah, I can open them up for you. Yeah –

Jolenta: Ugh.

Kristen: – no. No.

Jolenta: Suckered.

Sarah: That kit pulled a fast one.

Kristen: Suckered. [Laughs]

Sarah: What are some of the traits that you appreciate most about your closest friends? ‘Cause I think it’s really easy to, to get into a trap of being like, Oh my God, friendship is so hard and I feel so lonely, but then if I really sit and think about the friends that I have, like, Oh, but, you know, my friend Natasha is just so generous and, like, the minute you come to her with a problem she wants to listen and then be like, Can I give advice? Let’s talk about what you can do. Like, I have really good friends in different strength areas that I appreciate very much, and I wanted to ask you about your closest friends and the traits that you appreciate most about them.

Jolenta: Oh man. I feel like I’m, like, writing a weird dating profile, but I’m like, They’re empathetic; they’re –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jolenta: – smart. I like people with a weird sense of humor.

Sarah: Oh!

Jolenta: I like, I like people with a weird sense of humor for the most part that are, you know, at their core empathetic and kind, and I’ve learned, you know, the hard way that sometimes those weird senses of humor don’t always jibe with each other when you try to, like, force friends to be friends? But, you know, they’re all unique and really cool and really, they want to, like, they’re curious about the world, and who, like, doesn’t love that?

Sarah: Yeah.

Jolenta: Kristen, can you, can you encapsulate your friends better?

Kristen: [Laughs] I think those are all fantastic traits, Jolenta. They’re all great. One thing I’ve noticed over the years is, when I was younger, in both romantic partners and friends, I think I put a lot of value on, Is this person complicated? Are they misunderstood?

Jolenta: Ooh.

Kristen: Are they arty? Are they, you know, all of these things that are the way I saw my inner life. You know, are they challenging? Is there trauma there? And just because somebody’s complicated and a pain in the ass doesn’t actually mean that they’re going to understand you or empathize with you? And it took –

Jolenta: Mm-hmm.

Kristen: – a lot of years to come to terms with that. Like, oh, I thought we spoke the same language! I thought we had, you know, the same baggage, but you’re actually just a jerk and –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kristen: – you know, and I, I had to come to realize, like, the friends who I connect most with actually are not the “complicated” ones. They’re the ones who have complicated experiences in their history, but it doesn’t come out in a way that is – [laughs] – I know the word toxic is, you know, overly used these days, but I think –

Sarah: …understand.

Kristen: – I was really drawn to people who were toxic –

Jolenta: Yeah!

Kristen: – you know?

Jolenta: Yeah! It’s not –

Kristen: And –

Jolenta: – you know, a detriment to you or, or –

Kristen: Yes!

Jolenta: – friend.

Kristen: Yes, yes, and we talk about it in one of our episodes of How to Be Fine; like friends who I didn’t realize always thought that we were in competition, and how did that come up against the –

Sarah: That’s a big one!

Jolenta: Yeah!

Kristen: Which, I hate that! I hate them. It’s like, Oh, I didn’t know we were in competition –

Jolenta: So weird.

Kristen: – this whole time! And how that came to a head in really bad ways, including sleeping with my boyfriends! Things like that.

Sarah: Nooo!

Kristen: Yeah. And I think over time I had to realize, like, You know what? We all have our messes, and that doesn’t make us more interesting as people. What makes us interesting is what do we do with those messes? And not being an asshole – [laughs] – is a really good thing to do with your mess.

Jolenta: [Laughs] Yeah.

Kristen: And so at this point, being with people who, as Jolenta said, are empathetic, who are kind, who want the best for me, you know –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Kristen: – and, oh my God, isn’t that, like, the bare minimum of what we should ask for in friends? Like, kindergartners know this. Like, do they treat you like you matter?

Jolenta: Yeah.

Kristen: Do they love you –

Jolenta: Can they share?

Kristen: – and believe that you matter? Yeah.

Sarah: Can they share? Real basic skills.

Kristen: [Laughs] Yeah!

Jolenta: But not boyfriends. You don’t need to share your boyfriend.

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: I mean, if that’s your bag –

Jolenta: Unless, unless that’s what, you know, you guys have arranged, but, you know –

Kristen: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Jolenta: – behind-the-back cheating is what I was –

Kristen: Yeah

Jolenta: – alluding to.

Kristen: Yes.

Sarah: It’s so interesting! I hadn’t really thought about it, but it is so interesting how many people really struggle to have a relationship that doesn’t involve evaluation, judgment, and competition.

Jolenta: Mm.

Kristen: Yeah! It’s a mousetrap!

Sarah: Isn’t that strange?

Kristen: I don’t want to compete with my friends!

Sarah: No! And it’s –

Kristen: And it’s the last thing I want to think about. I want to cheer for you, and I want – [laughs] –

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: I just, I don’t even want to have that in the realm of our reality in any way. I just don’t want that.

Sarah: Yeah! And, like, if someone who I know and care about achieves something that makes me feel bad, that’s my problem. That is –

Jolenta: Yeah!

Sarah: – that is my mess to clean up, but also that’s a message to me. Like, I’ve learned, Oh, if somebody has achieved something and I feel bad, that means I want that thing! But I don’t want them to not have it. I’ve just learned something –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – about what I want that I hadn’t –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – articulated yet, like the –

Jolenta: Yeah. I just –

Kristen: Yes.

Jolenta: – didn’t know I wanted that until I saw them! Like –

Sarah: And, like, Oh! Okay! But I can also, I can also take steps to make that happen. It’s very –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – interesting how so many relationships that I have let go of in friendships were because I felt like I was being competed with, or because I felt like I was being judged –

Jolenta: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and I, and I, and I, now that you’ve, like, articulated it, I’m like, Wow, that’s really a common factor in a lot of relationships that I’ve had that have not worked out. That I can’t –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – be beside somebody without us racing.

Kristen: Yeah! Yeah, and, you know, something that has come up with certain friends is that me living a life that works for me isn’t my way of putting you down –

Sarah: Oh God!

Kristen: – you know? It’s not –

Sarah: Yes.

Kristen: – me trying to make you feel bad about yourself because I’m doing things that feel good for me, and I just feel like not everybody has that same worldview or experience of things. But I, I don’t want people to feel like, you know, Oh, Kristen, you think you’re sooo cocky! You think you’re, you think you’re better than everyone else, ‘cause look at you doing your work and loving it! I’m like, Me doing my work and loving it is not telling you I’m better than you; that’s just me doing my life, you know?

Sarah: Yeah!

Kristen: And you do your life, and I’m cheering for you! Yay!

[Laughter]

Sarah: This is particularly acute with children? I notice that a lot of –

Kristen: Oooh!

Jolenta: Ooh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – people react to people who don’t, who choose not to have children or who don’t have children? They, there’s this automatic assumption that people who are child-free by choice are looking down on all of the people who have children?

Jolenta: Yeaahh…

Sarah: It’s a very automatic base-level judgment, and it’s very strange to me. I, I don’t understand.

Jolenta: Hm.

Sarah: I, I know that it’s there. I have seen it in, I’ve seen it. And then there’s the, after you have children, what other mothers choose is invalidating your choices if they choose something different. You’re doing it wrong!

Jolenta: Mm.

Kristen: Right, yeah.

Sarah: And it’s like, We could not! That’s going to be an obstacle: if, if you’re, if you are programmed to look at other people as competition, you’re not going to find the friendships that you want.

Jolenta: Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah!

Jolenta: It’s hard, it’s hard to foster, like, that kind of supportive community when –

Sarah: Everything comes with self-work! No –

Kristen: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – no stars.

Jolenta: Yeah, it all does.

Sarah: [Laughs] God! Being a, being a person is hard!

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: No wonder we have podcasts!

Jolenta: …fricking reflection and, like, growth.

Sarah: Oh my – I think it was Tressie McMillan Cottom who said on Instagram, or posted on Instagram:

>> There are people who just walk around, and they don’t question their behavior, they don’t self-reflect, they don’t have any introspection at all, ever, and it’s really scary.

And I was like, Really, there are? Really? There are people who don’t? Oh my gosh!

Kristen: [Laughs] You don’t stay up until three in the morning obsessing over that dumb thing you said six months ago? What, you don’t do that?

Jolenta: [Laughs]

Sarah: How do you, how do you get there? Show me the way!

[Laughter]

Jolenta: Yeah.

Sarah: Now, I wanted to ask you about podcasting generally?

Kristen: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: One of my favorite things to do is talk to other podcasters, ‘cause I’ve been podcasting for a very long time, but it’s just, you know, it’s just me, me and myself. And you, I know you’ve re-launched By the Book as a Patreon exclusive, and I just have to say I’m such a fan of your longevity? Like, it gives me so much –

Jolenta: Oh, thank you!

Sarah: – inspiration and happiness, because it’s hard, it’s really hard to make your business on the internet. I, I, ask me how I know.

Kristen: [Laughs]

Sarah: What has the growth of your podcast – ‘cause this seems obviously like a natural extension of all the work you’ve been doing – what has that meant for each of you? And how is it, how has it affected your friendship?

Jolenta: You know –

Sarah: If that’s a fair question. If you don’t want to talk about that, it’s okay.

Jolenta: Oh no! It’s definitely affected our friendship, and, and changed it. We used to be coworkers who were friends, and now we’re, like, work partners –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jolenta: – you know?

Sarah: That’s a different relationship!

Jolenta: Yeah, and it takes a lot, a lot of communication, first and foremost. Just lots of communicating about who’s going to do what –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jolenta: – by when. Communicating about who, who are we going to hire to do this, or not hire to do that? Communicating at different, at different levels; like we know, you know, we’ve had to learn, like, what things require an email versus like a quick text versus, like, we should get on the phone. Yeah. All sorts of, all sorts of communication.

Kristen: Yeah, and the willingness to evolve and to just say to –

Sarah: Yes.

Kristen: – the other, You know what? This has been fun for a while, but I’d love to pivot in this direction, and fortunately, whenever one of us wants to pivot, it turns out the other one is totally eager –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Kristen: – to do the same thing, so it’s never been the case that one person really wants to do this! And the other person doesn’t. So one example of that is after ten seasons of living By the Book, Jolenta and I just needed a breather from self-help books, and we needed to talk about –

Sarah: Can’t imagine why!

Jolenta: [Laughs]

Kristen: – the wellness world more broadly. There were, you know, bigger topics that were trending every week on TikTok and so on, and, you know, celebrity health influencers imploding left and right, like Hilaria Baldwin or, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow or whatnot, and it’s like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kristen: – We want to talk about these trends too and not wait five years for a book to come out talking about these things, and so then we put By the Book on ice after ten seasons to just focus on a broader wellness world in the first season of How to Be Fine, and Jolenta and I were both so ready to do that. We just needed a breather from it.

Sarah: Yeah!

Kristen: And now that we’re bringing it back, we’re only really doing it once a month on Patreon?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kristen: Because that is more sustainable for us, and it also gives us breathing room, I think, to, you know, make those episodes as fun as they can be while still focusing on our current theme for How to Be Fine, friendship. So we can do both things, but Jolenta and I, I just feel very lucky that when we do these pivots, that we’re both on the same page, and I think it would be difficult if one of us was very solidly –

Jolenta: Oh yeah.

Kristen: – in this camp or that camp.

Jolenta: Yeah. Yeah, we tend to have, like, we’re lucky, maybe, in the fact that we have, like, a similar attention span –

Kristen: [Laughs]

Jolenta: – when it comes to projects or – we tend to kind of, yeah, we’re lucky in that regard.

Sarah: What’s next on, for friendship?

Kristen: Oh my gosh, we have some fun episodes coming up about how to better use social media. One of our favorite episodes is going to be coming out in a couple months with Dr. Jeremy Nobel, the author of Project UnLonely, and he actually is going to give everyone tips for how to better enjoy their own company, because so much of what loneliness is is, in his mind, a disconnection from oneself and –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Kristen: So he teaches us how to connect more with ourselves and be more okay with our time alone and genuinely enjoy who we are, and Jolenta and I both had a really good time with his tips, you know –

Sarah: That’s…

Kristen: – practicing them on ourselves.

Sarah: Ooh, that’s cool! What about you, Jolenta?

Jolenta: Yeah!

Sarah: What are you looking forward to?

Jolenta: Well, Kristen already teased it a little bit, but we’ve talked with writer Chelsea Devantez, also podcaster, about friendship breakups, and she sort of walks us through, like, a major friendship breakup that she had that she talks about in her book, and we share our own and just sort of talk about the stigma attached to it and how it’s just not something we talk about as much as, like, a romantic breakup. And it was, it was just such an enjoyable and, like, juicy conversation.

Sarah: Yeah. I love learn- – this sounds so predatory and mean, but I love learning about other people’s friendship breakups because it makes me feel less alone?

Jolene: Oh, totally!

Kristen: Yeah.

Sarah: You know?

Kristen: Yeah. And it’s so common. Chelsea told us that over eighty percent of women have had a best friend breakup.

Sarah: [Gasps]

Kristen: We just don’t talk about it. Eighty percent!

Jolenta: Yeah, we just, yeah.

Sarah: Eighty percent!

Kristen: Yes, it’s almost universal!

Jolenta: …going on now.

Kristen: It’s huge, and we just don’t talk about it.

Sarah: It makes sense, but at the same time it’s so taboo to talk about!

Jolenta: Right.

Kristen: So taboo. And it shouldn’t be!

Sarah: No!

Kristen: If, if this is something we’ve all gone, gone through, we should be able to talk about it openly, you know?

Sarah: Yeah. And it should be okay to say, We used to, we used to be on the same wavelength, and our lives have diverged, that we don’t have that –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – in common anymore.

Kristen: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sarah: Has this made you more appreciative of the relationships you have? ‘Cause, I mean, I have to say this conversation has made me feel so happy, so thank you.

[Laughter]

Jolenta: Oh, totally! I think exploring friendship has helped me, at least, realize, like, how, you know, special and rare it is. It’s just like finding, you know, romance, you know. It’s special when there’s someone you connect with on many levels and you enjoy their company a ton.

Kristen: Yeah, and I’ve found it really reassuring, like, our long-distance friendship episode. It, it made me realize the sphere that I have. Like, are my friends gone?

Jolenta: Mm.

Kristen: They’re just in a geographically different place.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kristen: My friends aren’t gone; my friends are just as close as ever; we just don’t live in the same towns anymore.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kristen: And, and it’s been really reassuring doing these experiments and, you know, helping me to appreciate what I have, absolutely, to answer your question. Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah: It’s lovely!

Now, I always ask this question, ‘cause I am fundamentally a book podcast, as I’m sure you can relate. Are there any books –

Kristen: Ah, yes.

Sarah: – that you’re reading or have read that you would like to tell people about? And if they’re books on friendship especially, I would love to hear your recommendations.

Kristen: Okay, I am a very avid reader. I read at least two books a week, and I, it was, I knew you were going to ask this question, and I’m like, Oh my God! Which book am I going to bring up? Because there are so many books I have really loved recently? But one I have enjoyed so much that I just wrapped up a few days ago is by Miranda July. It’s called All Fours, and there is deep friendship and also deep lust in this book, so romance readers might enjoy the very weird, oddball lustiness of it? And when I say oddball I mean it’s a lot of no genital contact sort of lust. Really enjoyable and surprising, but throughout, our protagonist, as she’s, you know, exploring her lustiness, relies so heavily on her friends. She’s got her best friend, who’s going to cheer her on no matter what she does. She’s got the friends who kind of are like, Hmm! Is that a good idea? She’s got so many different friends that she turns to for different things, and she actually kind of has a friend board of directors that she turns to at different times and gives each of them a meeting time to show up at a spot and talk her through perimenopause, for example, or talk her through different things that she’s going through. And it’s just a delight to see all of these different kinds of relationships she has with different women of different ages, some who have kids, some who don’t have kids, some who work in the same business as her, some who don’t, and I, I just thought anybody who reads this book is going to think, like, Oh my God, friendships like that? Those are as beautiful, if not more beautiful, than any of the romantic entanglements this protagonist is involved with. It’s a truly special thing to have the kind of friends that this protagonist has. Again, the book is called All Fours by Miranda July.

Sarah: You’re like the third person I’ve seen talking about this book, about how you start reading it and it’s like, Okay, well, the rest of my life will pause, ‘cause there’s this book, and there’s nothing else.

Jolenta: I do love Miranda July, so I better –

Kristen: Oh yeah.

Jolenta: – check this out!

Kristen: And just a fun fact: when you read the acknowledgments in the back of the book, she mentions, like, Thank you to all the friends who walked me through this book, who talked to me about their own perimenopause symptoms, and so on, and she lists every famous person you’ve ever met or –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kristen: – every famous person you’ve ever heard of. It’s like, First of all, I’d like to thank Megan Mullally, then Kim –

Sarah: As you do!

Kristen: – Holstein I’d like to thank, and then I’d like – and then it’s just like this list of amazing, famous, very creative women, and I’m like, Oh my God! I cannot imagine what their group chat is like. [Laughs]

One other book, just to, you know, take it in a completely different direction? I want to thank a listener for suggesting this book. It’s called My Best Friend’s Exorcism by Grady Hendrix, and –

Jolenta: Yes.

Kristen: – this is a book that takes place in the 1980s, and so there’s lots of, you know, cultural touchstones: roller rinks, cassette tapes, and so on. But it’s about the deep, almost obsessive friendships we often have when we’re preteens and teens and a kind of love that’s all-consuming, where I will do anything for this friendship. I will do anything to save you and to save us, and using the metaphor of a possession to work through what that feels like? And I think it’s just so beautiful because we don’t often give attention to, what is that deep, you know, almost romantic, obsessive love that we have as young girls oftentimes with other girls?

Jolenta: Hmm.

Kristen: It’s not really romantic, but in a way it’s almost deeper than romantic love. And so again, that’s called My Best Friend’s Exorcism by Grady Hendrix.

Sarah: Grady Hendrix is amazing.

Kristen: Yes!

Sarah: Oh my gosh.

Kristen: Yes.

Sarah: Like, they, I get, I see a new Grady Hendrix novel, and I’m like, Oh, that’s weird. I’m on board! Let’s do it!

[Laughter]

Jolenta: Yeah! This sounds like a – yeah.

Kristen: And so fun, and so much momentum –

Sarah: Yes.

Kristen: – you know. There’s also, like, real heart in Grady’s books also.

Kristen and Sarah: Yeah.

Sarah: Jolenta, what about you?

Jolenta: I’m going to talk about a book that Kristen actually mentioned, by one of our guests on the show that’s coming up. It’s called Project UnLonely: Healing Our Crisis of Disconnection by Dr. Jeremy Nobel, and Dr. Nobel had started Project UnLonely before the pandemic even started. They were researching human connection and, you know, how different aspects affect that, and obviously kept researching through the pandemic, and this book was published last year, and it just talks a lot about isolation, loneliness, the ways we can connect, and, you know, the book talks to, like, researchers, educators, artists, people from all walks of life about loneliness and how, like Kristen mentioned earlier, at its core it comes from a disconnection to the self, and so how we can sort of reconnect to ourselves and then use that to go out into the world and, like, connect with more people!

Sarah: I have a recommendation for both of you, if that’s okay.

Jolenta: Well, yes! Lay it on us!

Kristen: Yes, please!

Sarah: So I know you’re doing The Artist’s Way on the podcast, which is very much about connecting with yourself, right, and identifying your –

Jolenta: Yes, yes.

Sarah: – like, what is your self? There is a memoir that came out in June called I’m Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself: One Woman’s Pursuit of Pleasure in Paris by Glynnis MacNicol. And it’s –

Kristen: [Gasps] I’ve heard of this book!

Jolenta: Yeah!

Kristen: You’re not the first person to mention this book, yeah.

Sarah: But it is about a woman who was isolated in New York City during the pandemic, alone in her apartment, and then in August 2021 spent several weeks in Paris. The world had not really opened up yet, tourists were not everywhere, and so she had this wonderful sort of by-herself experience in Paris, deciding what she wanted to do to enjoy herself, and what she wanted to do to define her own pleasure. And it is so, like, it’s very lush, but it’s also like, Oh, I feel like I’m friends with this person as they tell me their story.

Jolenta: Mm, yeah. 

Kristen: Wow. Definitely adding that to my –

Jolenta: Definitely checking it out, yeah.

Kristen: – To Be Read list, because –

Sarah: Just look at the cover alone! It’s just like, Whoo! Damn!

Jolenta: Yeah, I, I’m very intrigued.

Sarah: So where can people find you? I usually say, ‘cause I’m often interviewing authors, and the degree to which they are present is, on the internet is variable, so where, where can people find you if you wish to be found? But I assume you wish to be found. Tell me all the places where people –

Jolenta: Oh yeah.

Sarah: – can find you. [Laughs]

Jolenta: You can find our show, How to Be Fine, wherever you listen to podcasts? Just search How to Be Fine. We’re on Instagram @howtobefinepod, and if you want to listen to By the Book, we’re at patreon.com/listentobythebook.

Kristen: Yes, all of those places that Jolenta just mentioned, and Jolenta and I are also as individuals on Instagram, if you want to follow us. Jolenta is @jolenta_g. I am @k10meinzer, as in Kristen Meinzer. And we also have websites. My website is kristenmeinzer.com, and Jolenta’s is jolentagreenberg.com.

Sarah: Awesome. And by the way, may I say thank you for the Daily Fail?

Kristen: Oh my gosh!

Jolenta: I was going to say Kristen didn’t plug Daily Fail! Kristen also –

Sarah: I’m going to do it ‘cause –

Jolenta: – has a great show with –

Kristen: Oh my gosh!

Jolenta: – her friend Maura, and you, you can tell ‘em what it’s about.

Kristen: Oh, thank you! Yeah, Maura and I do comedic close readings of the tabloids from Page Sucks to Us Bleakly, because, you know, Maura and I, we used to work on a Royals podcast together, and so much of what Royal news is is just misinformation and tabloid hate, and we realized, like, there’s so much media literacy that could be happening, but it shouldn’t be scolding; it should be fun. People should be –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Kristen: – laughing as they’re being –

Sarah: Yes.

Kristen: – you know, taught media literacy, because –

Jolenta: As they’re realizing –

Kristen: Yeah!

Jolenta: – how sexist and racist that Page Six article is.

Kristen: …Yes! Exactly. Thank you, Jolenta. I need you to be my PR person, Jolenta, for this show. [Laughs]

Jolenta: I’m here for it.

Sarah: I love the Daily Fail so much, and I love your Royals work, because so much of Royals coverage is, as you said, misinformation, and it’s especially misinformation –

Jolenta: Yes.

Sarah: – in the service of white supremacy?

Jolenta: Yes!

Kristen: Absolutely!

Sarah: You, you are watching white supremacy justify its existence, and you’re watching –

Kristen: Right!

Sarah: – wealth hoarding justifying its existence, and you’re watching the peddling of misinformation and propaganda to justify all of that, and it’s so rare, not only to have women of color talking about Royals coverage, but also to be pointing out, This is sexist, this is misogynist, this is anti- –

Jolenta: Right.

Sarah: – -Black, this is fatphobic. Here –

Kristen: Colonialist…

Sarah: Oh! Geeze Louise!

Jolenta: Yeah. Oh, they love their colonialism.

Kristen: Oh, they love it! They’re so into it, yeah! [Laughs]

Sarah: Super. And it’s, it’s very fun for me to listen to, and so I really appreciate it, so thank you for that one.

Kristen: Oh my gosh, thank you! That means so much! Thank you so much!

Jolenta: No, I’m glad we had a chance to talk about it, ‘cause it’s a good show.

Sarah: It’s a great show! Thank you both so much for doing this. I really appreciate your time, and I’m very, very appreciative of your new podcast, so thank you –

Jolenta: Oh –

Sarah: – so, so much.

Kristen: Thank you.

Jolenta: Thank you so much for having us!

Kristen: Yeah, and thank you for doing what you do, because –

Jolenta: Yeah.

Kristen: – you give a beautiful space for people, including me, who love romance –

Jolenta: Mm-hmm.

Kristen: – and just love women talking about what makes them feel good. And thank you for –

Sarah: Yes!

Kristen: – creating a space in the world for that.

Sarah: Oh, thank you!

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you tremendously to Jolenta and Kristen for hanging out with me and talking about their show. As I mentioned, you can find How to Be Fine – With Friends anywhere you get your podcasts. I’m sure you know how to do that ‘cause you’re listening to this one, right?

I will also have links to all of the books that we talked about and where you can find Kristen and Jolenta online in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode number 632.

As always, I end with a terrible joke, and this week is no exception. This joke was emailed to me by a listener; thank you, Karin. Are you ready? This is real bad. You’re going to want to tell everyone.

What do sea monsters eat?

Give up? What do sea monsters eat?

Fish and ships.

[Laughs] Now I want chips, but yes! Fish and ships! Thank you, Karin!

If you would like to send me your jokes, you can find me at [email protected]. I love when you send me bad jokes. It is so great.

On behalf of everyone here, I wish you the very, very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

Fish and ships. [Laughs]

[end of music]