628. Real Housewives and Romance Readers with Shana

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 628 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell. Today my guest is Shana. Shana is one of the staff writers at Smart Bitches, and she’s also a fan of Real Housewives – some of them – so we’re going to talk about her favorite Real Housewives locations and seasons and what aspects of this reality franchise appeal to romance readers. We’re going to talk about relationships and conflict and the blend of fiction and reality, and also some of the ethical considerations as well, especially with Real Housewives of Dubai.

I am very curious, though: are you a Real Housewives watcher? Which ones? Do you think there’s an overlap between romance reading and Real Housewives, and why do you think that is? I am very curious, and I would love to hear your opinion, after you listen or before. Totally up to you! You can contact us at anytime, and one of the ways that you can talk to us, if you join the Patreon, we have a Discord where we talk about current episodes all the time.

You can join the Patreon at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Every pledge keeps me going, helps make sure that every episode has a transcript hand-compiled by garlicknitter – hey, garlicknitter! – [Hey! – gk] – and you are make sure that the show continues! Yay! So if you like what we do, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Hello and thank you to the Patreon community. I hope you enjoy this episode!

Support for this episode comes from Lume Deodorant. It is vacation season, and I am personally very excited to travel to a very, very hot part of the country to move my son in for the fall semester! Where I shall most certainly be bringing Lume. My goodness, 115 degrees Fahrenheit? Oh yes. Lume is a game-changing, whole-body deodorant powered by mandelic acid to control odor everywhere. It was developed and designed by an OB/GYN, and it delivers seventy-two-hour odor control absolutely everywhere, thanks to a one-of-a-kind pH-optimized formula! And we have a special offer: new customers get fifteen percent off all Lume products with our exclusive code and link. Use code SARAH15 at lumedeodorant.com. That’s L-U-M-E D-E-O-D-O-R-A-N-T dot com. The thing I like most about Lume is that I put it on and then I don’t think about it again. It works, and I don’t worry. Even when my phone is beeping every thirty minutes to tell me about a heat advisory, I am not concerned. And, after many requests, they formulated a whole new product to keep you smelling fresh and help you stay drier: Lume Whole Body Deodorant Plus Sweat Control offers the same seventy-two-hour odor control with sweat control! Ho-o-o! Let me mention again that it’s going to be 115 degrees where I’m going. Lume’s Starter Pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with a solid stick deodorant; cream tube deodorant; and two free products of your choice, like a mini body wash and deodorant wipes! Plus free shipping! As a special offer for listeners, new customers get fifteen percent off all Lume products with our exclusive code, and if you combine the fifteen percent off with the already discounted Starter Pack, that equals over forty percent off the Starter Pack, and the Starter Pack products last a really long time. Use code SARAH15 for fifteen percent off your first purchase at lumedeodorant.com. That’s code Sarah one five at lumedeodorant.com: L-U-M-E D-E-O-D-O-R-A-N-T dot com!

All right, are you ready to talk about Real Housewives? I am. I’m really enjoying this exploration of reality franchises and romance readers and which ones overlap. This is a lot of fun; I hope you’re enjoying it. On with the podcast.

[music]

Sarah: So you ready to talk about Real Housewives and romance?

Shana: I’m so, I’m so excited. I came back from my trip last night, and I, I watched a few episodes just to, like, get me in the mood!

Sarah: Okay. So this is the only awkward part: please introduce yourself and tell the people who will be listening who you are and what you do!

Shana: Hey, I’m Shana. I’m a social worker, I focus on narrative therapy, and I’m also a staff reviewer for Smart Bitches, Trashy Books!

Sarah: Yay! Welcome back to the show. I’m so glad that you’re here. I love, I love talking to you about pop culture stuff, ‘cause it’s so fun. We’re going to talk about Real Housewives.

Now, tell me about your favorite Real Housewives franchises. I feel like there’s a parallel – hear me out – between Real Housewives and Doctor Who, where the Doctor or franchise into which you entered the larger franchise is the one you hold closest to your heart for a lot of people, whether that’s, you know, the Doctor with the ears or the Doctor who was David Tennant or the Doctor with the scarf, and then you have the Real Housewives franchises. Some people start with Salt Lake, some people start with Potomac, some people start with the original recipe or OC, and I’m really curious: what are your favorites? Where did you start?

Shana: Okay, so this is interesting, because I feel like my favorite is not the one I started with, and that’s also true of Doctor Who.

Sarah: Oh! Well, I am both not corrected and corrected! I love it!

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: My theory is holding a little water.

Shana: I think your theory is accurate, yes, so. You know, I think I tried watching a couple of episodes of, like, Real Housewives of New York or New Jersey ‘cause it was so popular?

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Shana: And it was so boring?

[Laughter]

Sarah: I thought Real Housewives of New Jersey was like Mob. Mob, mob. Mob, mob.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: Mafia, mafia, mob, mob, mob, flip a table.

Shana: Yeah.

Sarah: Big hair.

Shana: It’s like, you know, it’s just kind of how, like, mafia romances sound sexy, but, like, that life would actually not be interesting – [laughs] – in real life? That was so boring for, for me! I should, I mean, you know, not to yuck anyone else’s yum, but I found it boring.

So I think I started with Real Housewives of Atlanta. And I do still really like that, even though I don’t watch it anymore. I mean, I think it’s kind of the OG for me, and I feel about it like I feel about the David Tennant one where, like, it’s always going to have my heart, did some amazing things. You know, a total cultural powerhouse. Like, there’s still so many memes connected to David Tennant’s Doctor Who and, you know, NeNe and Shereé, but I think, you know, in terms of what I actually find most watchable now – [laughs] – and what I’ll go back to, I think it’s actually probably Real Housewives of Dubai and Real Housewives of D.C. Those are, like, my faves.

Sarah: Awesome. I have so many questions. So who is the, who is the Doctor Who that you most like now?

Shana: Honestly, I’m really obsessed with the current Doctor with Ncuti. Like –

Sarah: I mean –

Shana: – he’s so amazing.

Sarah: – they’re fabulous! Everything about that, this new version is really incredible.

Shana: Every episode, like, I’m in love with. [Laughs]

Sarah: I get it! So tell me what you like about Real Housewives, Real Housewives of D.C., Potomac and Real Housewives of Atlanta and Dubai. I, we, we have to talk about Dubai, ‘cause that was –

Shana: Yeah.

Sarah: – just mindblowing to me.

Shana: [Laughs] You’re the one who introduced me to Real Housewives of Dubai. I –

Sarah: I know; we have a really –

Shana: – eternally thankful!

Sarah: We have a real-, you and I have a really weird popular culture overlap where our tastes do not entirely line up, but when they do they really do.

Shana: [Laughs] Yes. Well, you know, I’ll start with Real Housewives of D.C., because I do feel like that maybe is my favorite of all, of all time. And it is mostly white. Like, there’s really just kind of, there’s one Black Housewife, but she looms so large on the show that she’s who I remember? And I feel like there’s a lot of Black culture focus because it is, you know, it is set in DC, like Chocolate City. Yeah. I mean, I love it. It was only one season. It caused, like, an international incident, so – [laughs]

Sarah: Wait, it did? This, this, this trivia I did not know. The Real Housewives of D.C. caused a diplomatic incident?

Shana: Yes! Because one of them, Michaele, and her husband Tareq, like, they’re kind of, you know, new money, the outlandish kind of type. They broke into a White House state dinner for, I think like the Indian, state dinner for India?

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Shana: She, she was wearing this, like, sari, and she’s a tall, skinny blonde woman. [Laughs] They talked their way in, and there were, like, you know, congressional hearings about it. Like, you know, people got fired, like, how they let these people in without an invitation –

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Shana: – mostly just because they seemed like they should probably be there. They talked their way in through multiple layers of security. People who said they weren’t on the list, but just, you know, wanted to keep the line moving and just let them in. They met President Obama. There was, like, pictures of them – [laughs] – with Obama that were, like, put out on the official, like, White House photography –

Sarah: Oh my God!

Shana: – before people realized what happened. Like, it was pretty amazing.

Sarah: I didn’t know any of this? I don’t know how I missed this blip in the world, but that’s – [laughs] – really impressive! Oh my God!

Shana: Like, the incident has its own Wikipedia page. Like, it’s hilarious.

Sarah: Amazing.

Shana: And they do, and they do show it on the show. Like, they show them getting ready, going to the event. I mean, you know, the, the, the film crew isn’t allowed in. [Laughs]

Sarah: That would have been your first giveaway that you didn’t really belong there is that you got a whole film crew tracking behind you.

Shana: Uh-huh, yeah. It’s, it’s amazing. So I, so I, I mean, that alone, for me, makes the show watchable. That’s not even maybe, like, the most ridiculous thing that they do. [Laughs] They, they also were running, like, an, an American polo competition, which they present as something really fancy, and actually, like, they’re not paying anyone involved in it? So they get called out by one of the other Housewives for that. They invite one of the, the British Housewives. So it’s, it is, and that one there’s overlap with.

With Dubai, there’s a random blonde British woman who is in a relationship with the White House photographer, and she goes to the polo event; is utterly unimpressed. She’s a pretty divisive character, but hilarious to watch because she, you know, tries to imitate Americans. At one point she does a, an impersonation of Tyra Banks, which is like the most painful thing – [laughs] –

Sarah: Oh my God. Ooh –

Shana: – ever!

Sarah: – oh, my face right now! Oh! Oh no! Oh no!

Shana: Oh no, no, no, no, no. So she, you know, even though her husband’s the White House photographer, she’s angry at Obama ‘cause he didn’t come to their wedding, but I think Bush did or some- – like, it’s – [laughs] – it’s amazing!

Sarah: These are some problems that I’ve never even conceived of having, so, wow!

So that was where you started.

Shana: Yeah, that was –

Sarah: Excuse me, you started with D.C. and Atlanta. What was it about Atlanta that you loved?

Shana: Honestly, I just love the Black culture in Atlanta. Like, I mean, I feel like every single episode had some sort of catch phrase that, like, people still use and don’t even know, like –

Sarah: Yes.

Shana: – where it came from? I mean, I actually think it, it’s one of those shows, also, that kind of got better a little bit over time?

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: Once people figured out the power of it and kind of became their own characters?

Sarah: Yeah!

Shana: Yeah. I mean, and, you know, the relationships were interesting, but it’s really about their friendships? Like, you know, not so much the marriages?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: And there’s a lot of kind of cyclical characters, so people come in and out of that show, so that kind of refreshes it quite a bit.

Sarah: Yeah, I had no idea that you had main cast members and then you had people who were paid to be friends of the Housewives, and the goal of the friends of is to sometimes become a main cast member, and people are constantly trying to be cast members. Like, I remember hearing that Hilaria Baldwin has been dying to be a Real Housewife of New York for like season after season, and they’re like, No! Mm-mm! Negative!

Shana: I mean –

Sarah: Not happening! No!

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: That is all rumor and alleged supposition; I do not know that for sure.

Shana: I, I believe it.

Sarah: Oh, for sure!

Now, what – [sighs] – so, before we talk about Dubai, I do want to say I really think that one of the things that the Real Housewives franchise, and especially Andy Cohen and the production, like the – it’s weird because there’s a reality show, and then the producers themselves are celebrities, because, you know, Andy Cohen and other producers now host their own things? Like, Andy Cohen hosts Watch What Happens Live. Two of the producers from, okay, one of them is doing Real Housewives of New Jersey right now, and the other one – the Fixing Famous People hosts are both Real Housewives producers or former producers. So the producers themselves are becoming characters, and you see more and more breaking of the fourth wall with the producers’ voices being, you know, in the show asking them questions.

But I feel like – [deep breath] – I really think that Real Housewives, as a franchise, has not really acknowledged how much Black women have made it a cultural landmark. Like, every meme I’ve ever seen from Real Housewives is of one of the Black women, especially NeNe. Like, never got paid enough to justify what they contributed, and they really, the, the, the franchise itself doesn’t seem to acknowledge how much of a debt it owes its own prominence to these women. Do you think –

Shana: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – that’s true as well? ‘Cause I’m looking in from an outsider; I haven’t watched all of these.

Shana: I definitely think it’s true. I mean, I personally think that NeNe is, is possibly, like, the best and most effective reality TV star of all time. And –

Sarah: I agree. Hundred percent.

Shana: – was she paid for that? In line with her influence on pop culture? Absolutely not. And I do think what has happened over time is that, you know, the Housewives themselves have tried to kind of monetize this, you know, originally just in promoting their businesses, some of which were kind of – [laughs] – sketchy businesses, and some which were more successful, but now they also have their own podcasts, and I think Real Housewives of Potomac is a good example of that, where – it’s kind of annoying, actually, as a viewer? –

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: – but they, they will put a lot of the drama on their podcasts, and they’ll actually have conversations about things that used to happen on the show. You know, that’s a way for them to control the narrative a little bit and to make money off of it in addition to, you know, being, being cast on the show. So as a viewer I find that extremely annoying, because I don’t really like listening to lots of podcasts. I, I’m not necessarily going to do that. [Laughs] I just want to be able to watch the show, but I can really understand from a, you know, from the performer’s standpoint that it really makes sense to try to have more, you know, more control over your creative output.

Because Black women are running this. Like, there’s no way that this would ever become the cultural phenomenon that it is, you know, without Black women.

Sarah: I completely agree. And I also think it’s interesting that, that, much like The Bachelor and The Bachelorette, the subtext of what this means professionally has evolved? Like, The Bachelor and The Bachelorette, you go on that show hoping to become an influencer, to get paid to create content, and you, you know, you’re setting up your brand and your image and your, you know, status as a former contestant or hopefully one of the finalists. There’s a goal in there that involves a personalized product or brand or brand platform; like, that’s your goal; and a lot of the Housewives seem to have spun that into, like, a, a lot – one of the things I, I’ve seen in my research is people complaining that a lot of the episodes feel like infomercials?

Shana: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: And I’m like, Well, yeah, that is boring, because ostensibly what you’re tuning in to see is the, are the relationships between these people and then tangentially their relationships with their own spouses or partners, and the drama that happens in that group around an event; not, like, I’m hosting a, a, a special pedicure tea where we’re all going to have pedicures with my special brand of tea and you’re going to soak your feet in the tea or whatever – I’m making this up.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: There’s, there’s a much more overt influencer, infomercial aspect to it, which I think turns a lot of people off.

It’s interesting to me how long-time fans talk about the show?

Shana: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: It, it, it, it’s, it’s like it’s semi-fiction. It’s not entirely real – even though it says it in the name – and it is not entirely fiction, but it’s a hybrid of both, because some of these situations are constructed and manufactured, and some of these fights are, are obviously constructed and manufactured, but also it’s not. Like, these people are playing a version of themselves for the most part, with the exception of real villains, who are like, I’m just going to create a whole other character and be that character, and, and that’s my deal here. It’s really interesting as a blend of fiction and, and reality.

Shana: Yeah, and I think part of why it’s so appealing, for me at least, is –

Sarah: I would love to hear; tell me everything.

Shana: [Laughs] Well, that element where people are finally saying out loud what they really think?

Sarah: Yes!

Shana: I think that’s, that’s also why the Black women on the show are so popular, because I do think that we are good at that. There’s, you know, this thing around real talk, like, Let’s not pretend like we don’t all know what’s going on; we’re just going to say what we actually think. And, you know, I think that, you know, Black culture has really perfected that, and that can be often very challenging. You know, I’d say for me as a Black woman, you know, sometimes in environments where, you know, the white women around me are not comfortable – [laughs] – with me saying what I think is really going on, but I think that’s partly why Stacie, the Black woman on Real Housewives of D.C., is so effective. The show just would not work without her, because, you know, you have these suburban, political wives, you know, from Virginia who are, you know, all saying kind of terrible things? And –

Sarah: They’re all talking in code.

Shana: Yeah, and no one’s really checking them? I mean, particularly with D.C., there’s so much racial politics, and that’s what I love? Like, I love the culture clash? You know, I think at one point one of the women, the white women, she has a birthday party where she invites like only two or three Black people, and she decides to tell them about her, like, vision for integrating hair salons? And how it’s a problem for, you know, Black hair salons to exist, when really what we need – [laughs] – is for all of us to come together in this beautiful rainbow world where –

Sarah: I just need everyone to know I have my head in my hand right now, and I’ve just, I’ve just given up! My, oh boy.

Shana: I mean, it’s amazing? And it’s one of the things that’s great about Real Housewives of D.C., because I feel like that kind of ridiculous comment doesn’t really seem to come up maybe when white women are talking to each other? So just having a Black person around inspires people to say totally bizarre things –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Shana: – and so in that moment the expression on Stacie’s face, and, like, you see all of the other, you know – I think there’s a Black hairstylist like, they’re looking at each other, but then they’re, like, trying not to look at each other. Like, it, their facial expressions are so perfectly clear, and then, you know, Stacie in her little separate interview talks through how ridiculous that was. [Laughs]

Sarah: There’s always –

Shana: And –

Sarah: There’s always a moment where you realize in a show like that, in an ensemble, there’s a lot of stuff that Black folks in America know about white culture, about white culture, but white culture’s defining characteristic is that it gets to pretend that it doesn’t exist! So white people don’t have to know about Black hair salons, or that Black hair salons do a whole different process for hair, ‘cause hair is different! And I remember a friend of mine, her younger sister was training to be a cosmetologist. She was so pissed off because she had to learn all of these techniques and all of these processes to get her degree that she would never actually use because she was opening a Black hair salon. But she had to learn all of the, the chemical, the perms and all of this stuff. She’s like, I’m not using this. This is ridiculous, but I have to learn it anyway. And I’m like, Yep, that’s, this whole idea that you have to, get to pretend like that does not, that doesn’t exist or that you don’t have to know about it. Oooh, yikes!

Shana: Yes, that’s a great example. I mean, I could go on and on about how it’s so annoying – [laughs] – like, that, you know, white hair professionals don’t have to learn how to do, like, how to cut curly hair –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: – you know, how to do any of the Black hair processes. Yeah. So there’s so many reasons – [laughs] – that that statement was ridiculous, but I feel like those culture clash moments happen so often on Real Housewives of D.C., and it’s one of the things I love. And you, and you see that on Real Housewives of Dubai a little bit –

Sarah: I was just going to bring that up!

Shana: – you know, to resolve these – yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: So Real Housewives of Du– – you and I have a little history with Real Housewives of Dubai, because I remember telling you about Ladies of London, which was, I think ran for two or three seasons, and it was basically Real Housewives of London. There were a couple of Americans and a couple of Brits and, and class is a very big thing, and speaking of weird businesses, some of them had weird-ass businesses. But with, with Real, with Ladies of London, was basically Real Housewives of London, and you had the culture clash of Americans and Brits, Americans married to Brits, and then the absolute, like, deep obsession with class in England and these people trying to fit in it or already being in it, and then one of them becomes a Real Housewives of, Real Housewife of Dubai, and Dubai is fascinating to me! Like, this show is very queer! It has a queer audience; it has queer producers; it has a queer following! You’re going to go to Dubai, where queerness is illegal! Huh! Interesting choice. I question.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: But then I was like, I think you need to watch this, and you watched it and were like, Yes, yes, I do need to watch this! [Laughs] What did you love about Real Housewives of Dubai?

Shana: Oh my goodness, I loved so much about it! [Laughs] I mean, I will say it’s just beautiful, is one thing. I mean, generally, Real Housewives shows I don’t associate with, like, gorgeous cinematography or, you know, sets, movie sets, you know, but actually, I think it is gorgeous. Like, there’s just these scenes where they’re riding camels in the desert, and they, you know, ridiculous things are happening? [Laughs] But it also looks beautiful, so I will say that that is the one things that I like about it. I mean, I love to travel, so, and I’m probably not going to Dubai for the aforementioned queerness being illegal reasons – [laughs] – but I, do I want to watch it? Yes, I absolutely do, so.

Sarah: The part where they have to take a boat out into international waters to drink? So you literally have booze cruises? Like, there’s a whole-ass business of booze – you thought Carnival had cornered the market on booze cruises? Oh no! Nononono! You go out to sea, and you drink on this show.

Shana: I was just thinking about that; I love that. And that looked beau-, it looked like fun!

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Shana: I would love to do that! [Laughs]

Sarah: It does look like fun! The thing I liked about Dubai most of all was actually the, one of the characters who left for the second season. I think there were two – so in the cast there was Lady Caroline Stanbury and, is it two American women? I have to look up the cast so I don’t – I can’t do this from memory. My, I had COVID; what am I trying to do?

Shana: [Laughs] Yeah, there’s two Black American women.

Sarah: Yes, Lesa and Caroline, so there’s two – all, all these Carolines; it’s like Kelseys on Bachelor. Like, just got, got a lot of Carolines here. So there’s Caroline Brooks and Lesa Milan, who are both American Black women. There’s Chanel Ayan, who’s a model, who’s also Black, and I believe she, I want to say she is Kenyan? I’m going to look this up –

Shana: Mmmm, yeah –

Sarah: – ‘cause I don’t want to screw this up.

Shana: – nah, I can’t remember.

Sarah: Kenyan born, Somali-Ethiopian. I, so I was on the right track.

Shana: Okay.

Sarah: Then there’s, there’s Caroline Stanbury, and then there’s Nina and Sara, who are both from Dubai and are Muslim, and we go home with one of them to see their, like, see, have dinner with their dad, and I was like, This is amazing; can the whole season be this? Now, of course that would be my show, and not, no-, nobody tuning in to Real Housewives would watch, you know, Nina and Sara going to dinner. But Nina and Sara with their families was my favorite part of that show because it was beautiful, it was very homey, but it was something that I would never be invited into in my real life.

Shana: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: That’s the part I liked the most. What about you?

Shana: I agree, and part of what I love about Real Housewives shows is watching the marriages and the family dynamics? I mean, I love marriage romances, you know, you know, where the, the married couple, you know, starts the book already married –

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: – and I, I love, like, the extended Happily Ever After; you know, the kinds of books where in Goodreads reviews people say, It was so boring ‘cause they got together so early. I love that. I want to see people, you know, be happy or have little, you know, minor arguments and then resolve them.

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: And I, and I feel like Dubai has a lot of that, like the –

Sarah: Oh, Chanel is going to bring drama all the time.

Shana: I mean, she might be my favorite character on the show? I mean, she’s just, she’s definitely one of the more queer-coded, because she feels like a, like, very drag-queen-esque? [Laughs] And she walks around in these, like, amazing couture gowns with a train. You know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: – she’ll just show up –

Sarah: To go to the grocery store!

Shana: – for lunch –

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: – you know, or the – [laughs] – grocery store. I mean, her outfits are amazing. She, like, exclusively wears couture. She’s a model, but she is amazing. I mean, and actually, I’m someone, I love clothes? And I will wear very cute dresses just to go grocery shopping, because I don’t have the kind of fabulous life where I’m going to galas, so if I want to wear my cute little dress, then I will be wearing it to the farmers market. I always dress up for the farmers market!

Sarah: Oh, farmers market is totally, it’s like the farmers market, you bring your cute!

Shana: You got to look adorable, and I feel like, you know, Chanel, I, like, she, in that way I feel very connected, because people will comment on, like, you know, Why did you show up in, like, this amazing, impractical – [laughs] – like, outfit?

Sarah: ‘Cause I wanted to! That’s why!

Shana: ‘Cause we want to! And then sometimes she gets tired and, while she’s shopping, and she will just sit down on the ground outside –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: – in a huge gown –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: – because she’s probably only going to wear it once and doesn’t – [laughs] – care if it gets dirty!

Sarah: …And her heels are as high as my forearm, elbow to wrist. She’s already tall; she’s a mile taller. I also do love that in, in, in a truly perfect cameo, Phaedra shows up as a, as a surprise guest in Dubai, and they all have lunch, what, like, they have lunch with her and Caroline Brooks and Caroline’s cousin? That was one of my favorite conversations, actually, because they, Phaedra’s like, Well, why are you here? And Caroline’s like, Because they love Black people here? Like, they like Americans –

Shana: Mm.

Sarah: – nobody follows me around –

Shana: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and one of the other characters talks – I think it was Lesa – talks about how she’s not scared to have young Black boys, living and raising them in Dubai, like she would be at home? And again, that’s not a conversation you’re going to have in front of, like, strangers, but you are having that conversation in front of a very large audience of many millions of people.

Shana: Mm-hmm. I think that conversation was kind of how you got me to start watching the show, because I was really curious about that, and it’s, you know, certainly something I’ve talked about with my family members who, you know, live outside the US; you know, that dynamic of how difficult it is and scary it is to be a Black person in the US. And, you know, you, when you leave, you trade – [laughs] – you know, you trade some comforts for, you know, cultural challenges, so it’s not as though it’s always perfect, but I think I just hadn’t really seen that represented on television –

Sarah: No, I hadn’t either.

Shana: – to that degree. I mean, even 90 Day Fiancé: The Other Way, which is kind of the other show that is very much like fish-out-of-water oriented, where, you know, you take Americans into another environment, it doesn’t really talk about the kind of racial dynamics of that. So I really love that in the show people are really honest about it, and yet they’re not necessarily screaming, which is, I think, part of the reason it’s my favorite. So I think over time Real Housewives of Atlanta, like, the amount of yelling?

Sarah: Mm.

Shana: Was just a little hard for me and my personal tolerances. Like, I do actually, I’m very loud, but – [laughs] – I don’t necessarily scream-fight constantly, and to make it entertaining, I think they needed to kind of increase the balance over time where the proportion of time spent on the show of people yelling at each other got higher and higher.

Sarah: Yeah, and I, I can’t watch that either.

Shana: But I, I think Real Housewives of Dubai, it’s not like they don’t have arguments –

Sarah: Mm-mm!

Shana: – but, ‘cause they do, and they’re very entertaining, but for me they’re just a little less grating? And I, I often think that they get to, actually, like a deep emotional truth. Like, you know, there was a big argument that, over several episodes in season one where, you know, one of the women, one of the Black American women had a disagreement over her parenting style, you know, with one of the, you know, women who was Middle Eastern, and, and it really turned into an interesting conversation about how she was raised and, and, with not a lot of, you know, softness or emotional care and the pain that that had caused her, and, you know, how she was, you know, trying not to replicate that in raising her son, but also struggling with, you know, discomfort around her own emotions.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: And I thought that was just really thoughtful and beautiful and also very, involved a lot of funny drama in, in the friendships. So entertaining while at the same time there was just this, you know, really lovely, like, healing process that, you know, we were kind of getting to watch in real time.

Sarah: I, I completely agree, and I also think that that’s a good illustration of how very, very opposite to some elements of the show are. So you’ll have two women talking about their parenting styles and the parenting styles that they grew up with, and then you have, you know, Chanel giving one of the other Housewives a goat as a present –

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and being like, Here’s your goat! And it’s a live goat, and then the goat escapes, and what are we – and the kids fall in love with the goat, and she’s like, Why would you bring me a goat? And Chanel’s like, I brought you a goat ‘cause it’s fun! Chanel is just giving her a goat to see what happens with the goat. Like, this is, this is purely for entertainment purposes for Chanel, I’m pretty sure. And so you have this incredible acknowledgment of family dynamic and parenting styles and intercultural marriages and, you know, being of one culture and living full time in another? And then you have Chanel with a goat.

You also have a, a show that is acknowledging being Black in a different culture and being a Black American raising American, probably dual-citizen kids who are Black in a different country and what that means and the relief that you feel as a Black mother, and at the same time, the show doesn’t really acknowledge the restrictive laws about homosexuality and women’s rights and the labor abuses, and all of the things that are happening to make their life possible is an enormous amount of labor and human rights violations. The show just doesn’t really interact with that at all, so on one hand you have this incredible intimacy and these really interesting conversations; and on the other hand it’s like, Okay, but there’s this whole other thing you’re not talking about! And they, I don’t, I don’t even know if they ever will reconcile that.

Shana: And then speaking of labor, what about the point where, ‘cause it’s hot in Dubai, like, they want to cool down the pool, so they order giant blocks of ice?

Sarah: Oh my God, yes! There’s giant blocks of ice just being chucked in the pool, and that is a delivery service that exists. Like, more than one person had this idea! Oh my God.

Shana: That was amazing. So, but I do think just the wealth porn –

Sarah: Oh, the wealth porn.

Shana: – is –

Sarah: That’s pretty much the standard of the show, though, right. Like, every franchise –

Shana: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – is going to have little bits of wealth porn.

Shana: But for me it’s more interesting on Dubai because of the culture connotation. So maybe –

Sarah: Ditto.

Shana: – maybe, you know, trucking giant blocks of ice for your pool is a thing in the United States and I was unaware. [Laughs] That’s, that’s possible! But that’s, I think that intersection is what makes it interesting to me, because it’s manifestations of wealth that look different –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: – because it’s in a different culture context, so for me it just makes it more interesting.

Sarah: And how you define wealth. Like, wealth for me and wealth for someone living in Dubai are two very different numbers.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: Those are very big numbers that are very far apart.

Shana: And it is kind of nice, given all the Islamophobia in the world right now, to, you know, have a show that I feel like has a little bit more positive of representation of, of Muslim culture. So, you know, I do appreciate that, even though it’s not at all really the focus of the show. Like, I think there could have been a lot more conversation about Islam, and it’s not, it’s not happening – [laughs] –

Sarah: No, it’s –

Shana: – on this show!

Sarah: No, it’s like an accessory more than a point.

I have noticed – setting aside our discussion of particular versions and flavors of the franchise that we love –

Shana: Uh-huh?

Sarah: – I have noticed a lot of overlap between romance readers and Real Housewives fans. Why do you think there are so many romance readers and Real Housewives fans? Why is there an overlap?

Shana: I think there are a lot of women – [laughs] – who are fans of both that I think is part of it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: And I do think, we talked about the wealth porn –

Sarah: Oh.

Shana: – so I do feel like just the escapism? I mean, billionaire romances are very popular, so I have to imagine that is a big part of it. Like, it’s really that Happily Ever After of the billionaire romance, like, where you get to see not just that this person, who is maybe a normal person, married somebody who’s really wealthy, what that looks like. I mean, I think particularly Real Housewives of Atlanta, you really kind of see that? But I also think just the focus on that, on relationships is part of it…

Sarah: That’s true!

Shana: – people’s emotional life is the core. Whether it’s friendships; whether it’s marriages; whether they’re dating or divorcing. Like, you know, emotional life is seen as so important that that could be the primary, like, the A and the B narrative that are, that’s happening in an episode. And that’s not really true of a lot of other reality TV. So I do think that that might be a big part of it? You know, people who love that emotional content probably also love romances.

Sarah: I think you’re really onto something with the idea of interiority being the, the conflict? You, you learn a lot more about the interior of characters in a romance, the emotional landscape, and the, and the emotional stakes are part of what drives the drama, and so the same is true for Real Housewives.

I think it’s partially wealth porn and the fantasy of not having to worry about so many things. Like, with a romance, if you’re reading a romance, everyone’s going to have an orgasm; it’s going to be good. Everyone’s going to be happy at the end who are, you know, the protagonists anyway, unless you’re a villain. Especially if you’re a villain in a, in a Beverly Jenkins novel, then you’re going to die of your own stupid; sorry.

But, like, everyone’s going to end happily. There’s going to be fulfillment, and there’s going to be a lot of negotiating things that end in a positive way. When a lot of, you know, we don’t always get happy endings to every day or every situation we’re in. In a romance, everything’s going to be okay.

And the thing with the Real Housewives is that they do pay attention to the end of the narrative. Like, when you hear somebody talking about a season or a conflict on Real Housewives, a lot of the problem is that it didn’t end well. It didn’t have an ending; it just sort of fizzled out, or it didn’t go anywhere. People want the complete story, knowing that, because of the insulation of wealth and power and privilege and being really attractive, that things will, things’ll end pretty well, and all of these people are cushioned. Does that make sense?

Shana: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: So I think the, the, maybe it’s the cushion that they have in common, that there’s a certain ease and comfort that’s present in both?

Shana: I do think there’s actually a lot of similarities in the tropes, especially if you apply them to friendships, as that’s kind of the primary relationship currency on Real Housewives?

Sarah: Oh, that’s interesting!

Shana: Because, I mean, I love marriage of convenience, I love arranged marriage. And on Real Housewives shows, a lot of times, you know, there are some organic relationships that pre-existed before people are cast on the show, but, you know, most, they may not know each other, or know they exist –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: – but they’re not actually friends, right?

Sarah: Mm.

Shana: So there are these arranged friendships that are happening because of the show, and then they’re forced into constantly spending time together in order to create content, you know, for the show. So they have to engage with one another, even if they might hate this person. In fact, hating them makes for better TV, so that could be ideal. So I think, for me, it gives you a little bit of that marriage of convenience vibe, like a little bit of that arranged marriage vibe?

Sarah: That’s very true.

Shana: And I think, I think that is a big part of the fun. And with, you know, marriage of convenience, it, they may not be people who would be perfectly aligned. [Laughs] Like, it may take them some time to figure out what the overlap is, and they may never figure it out, and then they’re still stuck together, and I don’t know why I personally enjoy that so much? Like, I can handle a lot of conflict in that context, because you know people can’t escape. You know, so in real life, if you don’t like someone –

Sarah: You just bail!

Shana: That’s it. But on Real Housewives, it doesn’t matter. Like –

Sarah: No. [Laughs] You’re contractually obligated to be there! Put your shoes on and go to the thing.

Shana: [Laughs] Again and again, and so it actually forces you to invest in the relationship. Again, you know, the comment on the emotional landscape: you have to invest in it because you know you’re stuck in it. So, you know, how can you make this relationship feel useful to you?

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: And whether that’s, like, entertaining you, annoying the other person, like, trying to find some way to build an ally out of them, trying to have an opportunity to throw out some one-liners that people will remember forever. I mean, that’s what makes it so entertaining. So I do think, like, for me, those are some of the major tropes. But also, like, age difference; like, class difference tropes. I mean, I like those in romances; you definitely see that –

Sarah: Oh, I –

Shana: – especially in some of the marriages?

Sarah: I love, I love class differences, because I – the thing about people and cultures that are super invested in class is that they try desperately to pretend that there’s, there’s not one?

Shana: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Especially in the United States. Like, we don’t have a class structure! Spoiler: yes, we do. It, it’s interesting to watch people negotiate class within this contractual structure where they’re all contractually obligated to hang out with each other and get along and try to negotiate their relative to this, position to each other outside of what they perceive their classes to be.

Shana: Yeah, I think that’s, you know, definitely something I see on the Atlanta show? Because they’re often kind of commenting on the relative ghetto-ness of each other –

Sarah: [Laughs] No!

Shana: – in ways that can be really entertaining. And sometimes, like, that’s a positive. Like, like when Shereé says like, Who’s going to check me, boo? But, you know, I actually think Real Housewives of Potomac does a really good job of being very open about class? Because, you know, I think in Atlanta it’s more about proximity to working class Black culture and what elements of it they, you know, want to celebrate and what elements they are critiquing people for, you know, representing. And I feel like, as a viewer, I often was uncomfortable with how that was handled by the producers, and some of the ways that it was edited. I, you know, I didn’t often feel like it was necessarily created for a Black gaze, but also for, like, entertaining, you know, white folks in a way that could feel a little bit minstrel-y?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: Again, not the characters or the people on the show themselves, but it was very much around some of the editing? I prefer Real Housewives of Potomac for that because I actually think that the class subtext is very direct. [Laughs] You know, there’s, you know, you have these wealthy Black women, mostly lighter-skinned Black women, and colorism is something they talk about on that show too, which –

Sarah: Yes.

Shana: – I do appreciate. And, you know, who’ve been in the area, this wealthy part of Maryland, for a long time, and, you know, feel like they are the grande dames of, of the region, and as someone, you know, for me, you know, I kind of grew up with, you know, alongside seeing that, but I was definitely not – [laughs] – you know, not part of that. You know, I got invited to participate in a, a sorority, a Black sorority debutante ball when I was in high school, and ended up not doing that. I was not the right kind of person for that. But I’ve always found that culture really fascinating, and so, you know, I think seeing that and then seeing the kind of New Money, you know, folks –

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: – and the conflicts? They’re very direct about that on the show in a way that I feel like is, is not as obvious. I mean, in that it’s obvious to us as a viewer, but the, the participants themselves don’t talk about it as directly as they do on Potomac. So, you know, I think if that’s, you know, something that you’re interested in, I do definitely recommend that show, especially the first few seasons.

Sarah: I remember when I was doing Lovestruck Daily with Alisha Rai at iHeart, we interviewed one of the contestants from one of the seasons of Love Is Blind, and it was in the period of time between the show ending and then the one-year mark where they all announce their breakups because they get a bonus if they make it to a year is my theory, is my theory.

Shana: Uh-huh?

Sarah: But she was very clear before we started recording, she’s not allowed to talk about her edit. You’re not allowed to talk; she was not permitted; it was an NDA issue for her to talk about. We couldn’t ask questions about her edit, what she felt about her edit, what she was showing or what was being shown about her, and later it came out that some of the fights between them had been manufactured by producers. Like, one producer telling her one thing and one producer telling him something, and then sticking them in a room together with this, with this conflicting information that neither side was real? And she was not allowed to talk about her edit, and I’m fascinated by the influence that the editors, the producers, the people who were taking the footage and shaping the story? There’s so many pieces of narrative that the people themselves who are in the shots, the, the, the characters, the Real Housewives, the cast members don’t have control over that narrative at all, so they’re desperately trying to maintain control and prominence and get invited back next year, ‘cause this a very lucrative gig. Like, let’s not pretend – [laughs] – you get a lot of money per, per episode being a Real Housewife main character – or excuse me, main cast member; I beg your pardon. But you don’t have control over the final product that comes out, ends up.

I think that seeing these podcasts spin off where they’re like, Well, let’s actually talk about what was going on there. That is, that is really interesting, especially from a narrative perspective, because you don’t have control over that story. You’re giving control of that story to, like, a bunch of producers and an executives panel and a bunch of other people in marketing. Like, you got no control over that! That’s terrifying to me; I don’t know if I could do that! [Laughs]

Shana: And, and then, you know, like you said, sure, they have to decide to what extent they’re willing –

Sarah: Yeah!

Shana: – to kind of talk about their frustrations, because there could be repercussions.

Sarah: Yep!

Shana: Like, Robyn on Real Housewives of Potomac was clearly exhausted by the amount of attention to her husband’s infidelity that the fandom had focused on, and, you know, in the current season, like, she just looked over it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: [Laughs] Like, completely done, and then, you know, she didn’t come back –

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: – the next – you know, she wasn’t going to be invited back. And, you know, I do often, you know, wonder how that feels, you know, to the performers?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Shana: You know, it’s lucrative, but, you know, your, your whole life is in some ways, you know, owned? You know –

Sarah: And mined. And mined for content and exploited. And none of these people are union, either. They’re not unionized as characters on realities; unscripted reality is not subject to union rules, so there’s a whole other aspect of labor there that I, I am, I am very curious about the realities – ha-ha – of dealing with.

Shana: And they have to, you know, of course pretend like, you know, the lucrative nature is not why they’re on the show, because –

Sarah: [Laughs] Oh right, yeah!

Shana: – we are all extremely wealthy!

Sarah: We’re here for the right reasons! [Laughs]

Shana: We don’t, we – the right reasons on Real Housewives are, We don’t need – [laughs] – we don’t need the money. We just are offering you, altruistically, the opportunity to be entertained by our fabulous lifestyles.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Shana: [Laughs] There’s nothing in it for us.

Sarah: Yes, and they have to maintain that; it’s like a, the script on Love Is Blind is it’s not – or on Bachelor and Bachelorette – it’s not a, a process; it’s a journey. Like, you’re not, there’s wor-, key words you’re not supposed to use. I think Love Is Blind is an experiment?

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, they always have to talk about the experiment, and I’m like, Okay, so do you understand that when humans are used in experiments in science, there are rules and protocols and a lot of oversight involved in what the humans do, and you are not protected by any of that, so stop calling it an experiment, for the love of God! This is where I’m way too pedantic – [laughs] – for reality TV! Like, what about the labor contract here? What about the labor rules and the exploitation and the number of hours you’re working? How is this okay? Oh, all right, Sarah; calm down. I am a big buzzkill when it comes to that part, ‘cause I’m just like, Oooh! I don’t like seeing people exploited for my entertainment. Same reason I don’t like American football: I feel like I’m, I’m, I feel like I’m being asked to root for people to get brain damage, and I can’t do it.

Shana: Yep.

Sarah: This is why I’m a big pedantic buzzkill; sorry. I brought it all down.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: So if a romance reader is new to the, to the whole Real Housewives world and they’re curious, where do you think they should start, and do the things that people like to read, the tropes that people like to read, do you think influence where they would find the Real Housewives that will most appeal to them?

Shana: You know, well, I also don’t really love athletics and sports, like sportsball. [Laughs] That was not my thing. So I think that that probably plays into my disinterest in Real Housewives of Atlanta over time, because you do have, you know, sports stars, and, you know, their wives are definitely a big part of that show. But I –

Sarah: Which is another class structure, yeah.

Shana: Yeah. But I could see if that was your interest, then Atlanta might be a good place to start.

You know, I think that if you were really into, like, travel romances, which I do love, and, like, intercultural relationships, then I feel like starting with Dubai would be great? Obviously, I’m biased; I love Dubai? [Laughs] But I would love to do that.

And, you know, I also like political romances. Like, Jasmine Guillory’s Party of Two is one of my favorites. So I think probably part of why I do like Real Housewives of D.C.; it’s a big part of the show. Like, that whole political celebrity culture and, so I can see starting there, I think, if people like political romances? I mean, also, like, politics is just so poisonous right now that, you know, I think probably going back and watching that now, it’ll almost make you feel, like, nostalgic for the Obama era.

Sarah: Like watching The West Wing?

[Laughter]

Shana: Yeah, yeah! And, and, you know, there is some overlap with people who are currently around, like, you know, Biden, because the White House photographer, like, he’s, he’s hanging out with Biden, so you kind of see that. I think Nancy Pelosi, you know, makes an appearance with people…

Sarah: Pops up.

Shana: Yeah. So, yeah, I think that, I mean, I did mention Real Housewives of Potomac, so I feel like if class differences were kind of your major thing, that’s the best show to start with for that. So those are probably the ones that I’d most recommend.

Although you, you know, so Salt Lake City –

Sarah: I was just about to ask you if you’d watched Salt Lake.

Shana: So my Bachelor’s degree is in anthropology –

Sarah: No! Well, okay, that, story, ah, story checks out! Thanks for being a guest on the show –

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: – ‘preciate it; understand completely! Yep, that is the – uh-huh! Yep, okay! Found your through line. Yep! As you were saying.

[Laughter]

Shana: So, you know, I love a little, you know, ethnographic analysis of the subculture. You definitely get that –

Sarah: Oh, a little bit, yeah. Mm-hmm?

Shana: – with Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I actually feel like if you just want to watch a total train wreck full of terrible people –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Shana: – then I actually think that Salt Lake City is the best one. I mean, I mean, part of what I like about Real Housewives shows are, like, the married couples where the husbands are so supportive. They’re even so supportive of the wives’ bizarre friendship drama.

Sarah: So I always ask this question – unless you have any final thoughts about Real Housewives that you would like to share or recommendations, I would love to know what books you are recommending lately.

Shana: So many books! I just finished a bunch of books. I just finished Only for the Week by Natasha Bishop. It’s a travel romance where the main character is in Mexico for a destination wedding because her sister is marrying her ex, and everybody’s very concerned about the fact that the main character, the heroine, might still be in love with the ex? But she is not; she’s not interested, and so instead, to distract herself, because she’s very stressed, a wonderful book boyfriend shows up named Rome, where he provides wish fulfillment for the entire book. So this is one of those books where, like, the plot, there’s not a lot going on. What’s happening is that she is stressed because of all the wedding drama, and her sister is truly terrible, and all he wants to do in life is to relieve her stress. Primarily with orgasms –

Sarah: I mean!

Shana: – but also, like, at one point, like, she’s stressed because she brought book, her romance books, and she can’t read them because her sister has her running around doing nonsensical errands, and so he rents a yacht?

Sarah: As you do.

Shana: As you do. Surprises her with the yacht so they can get on a boat, sail off into the ocean, park it so she can lie on the deck and read without being bothered by her sister.

Sarah: Ohhh, that’s a hero!

Shana: He also reads the per-, you know, he starts her favorite romances with her and gets really involved in them. Like, it’s the most adorable thing, and just the whole book is basically him, like, not being a real person? Having zero flaws and just focused on her needs. So I loved it! [Laughs]

Sarah: Sounds ideal. That sounds like ideal vacation reading, honestly.

Shana: It was great for vacation reading.

Editing Sarah: Hey, so this is Editing Sarah. The following question is a bit of a SPOILER, so if you don’t want to hear a spoiler about the family relationships, skip ahead now.

Interviewing Sarah: Does she dump her sister in the end? Does she tell her sister off? Does she’s –

Shana: Yes!

Sarah: – like, Fuck you; I’m out?

Shana: Actually this is very Real-Housewives-esque, because, you know, the, the, the guy is just in love with supporting her, but he’s definitely kind of like the secondary relationship. Like, the primary relationship arc is her negotiating and finally, like, setting some boundaries and taking down her sister for her ridiculous – and, and her mom, actually, who’s enabling it. So, I mean, I kind of loved that! It, it’s funny; I hadn’t thought about it! [Laughs] It’s totally like the Real Housewives! Like, this, the conflicts with the sister are the majority of the, like, conflict and resolution of the book.

And, so I liked that. I also read Tied Up in Thailand by NC Ross, another kind of travel romance. It’s got a dominatrix heroine. It’s definitely top tier femme Domme energy? [Laughs] So I really loved that. Like, it’s about a guy who, you know, is fantasizing about being dominated. He’s from, like, a rich billionaire family, and he signs up with a, a sex work travel agency where, you know, he gets paired with this dominatrix. They go to Thailand. Beautiful. She has him, you know, do a lot of kneeling and crawling, cunnilingus. Like, it’s delightful! [Laughs] So I really enjoyed that too. Those were probably my favorite, kind of travel romances that, you know, that I read on my break.

And right now I’m reading The 7-10 Split by Karmen Lee? It’s a, it’s a lesbian romance about women bowling? Which is, it’s not anything, I know anything about? [Laughs] But I’m liking it so far.

Sarah: Nice! If, if you would like to be found on the internet, where is that?

Shana: Well, you can find me on Instagram and Threads, and I’m @blackbabereads at both of those, and that’s probably where I’m most active these days.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you so much to Shana for hanging out with me.

Next week we will have the ads and features of October 1999’s issue of Romantic Times, and then on Oc-, August 30th – yes, August, not October – August 30th, episode 630, I have an interview with a producer who worked on the Real Housewives, and I’m so excited to share this with you. We had the best time. If you’re a writer? You might find our conversation about narrative really interesting.

But I’m curious right now: are you a Real Housewives watcher? Which ones are your favorites? Do you think there’s an overlap between romance readers and romance tropes and Real Housewives? I’m really curious what you think. You can email me at [email protected], and you can find us on smartbitchestrashybooks.com under episode 628. You can comment; tell me what you think! I’m really, really curious, because I know people have very passionate opinions about reality TV, unscripted television, and the Real Housewives, and I’m really curious what you think, so please tell me!

As always, I end with a terrible joke, and this joke is terrible! I mean, that’s the requirement, right?

What should you do if you’re feeling cold?

Give up? What should you do if you’re feeling cold?

Go stand in the corner; it’s 90 degrees.

[Laughs] Now, that joke is, is in Fahrenheit, as opposed to centigrade; it’s the only way it works; but it’s still funny! Ninety degrees!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[end of music]