518. Celebrating Big Happy News with Sonali Dev

[music]

Sarah Wendell: [Sounding more sultry than usual] Hello there; thank you for inviting me into your eardrums. This is Sarah Wendell – not Kathleen Turner; I can understand why you might be confused – and this is episode number 518 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. Before we get into who my guest is – and if you read the show notes you know who the guest is; if you read the title you know who the guest is – let’s address the not-elephant in the room: what’s wrong with me? I have COVID. It sucks! Get vaccinated, for the love of God, if you’re not already vaccinated. I am vaccinated and boosted, and this is mean. I think I have BA.5, and the B and the A stand for Bad Ass. That’s what they stand for. I don’t care what epidemiologists say. So Bad Ass 5, which is likely what I have, it’s like strep. It sucks! So I’m super slow and quiet, but you get to listen to me talk to you like I’m Kathleen Turner. Hello.

Today my guest is Sonali Dev, and she has really big news! Her upcoming book, The Vibrant Years, is one of the debut titles of Mindy Kaling’s new imprint, Mindy’s Book Studio! So we’re going to just squee a lot and celebrate it. It’s very, very cool. We also talk about Sonali’s recent interview in Town & Country magazine and what she’s working on, and she brought jokes, so we’ve got multiple bad jokes at the end of this episode ‘cause Sonali is the greatest!

I will have links to all of the things that we are talking about in the show notes.

Hello and thank you as always to our Patreon community. I am running out of energy, so I’m going to say a very heartfelt thank-you: thank you, thank you for supporting the show. Thank you, garlicknitter, and thank you for listening. It is an honor to have you with me every week.

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Are you ready to listen to this podcast? Be prepared: my voice is going to sound a little different in a few seconds. On with the interview with me and Sonali Dev.

[music]

Sonali Dev: Hi, everyone! This is Sonali Dev, and I write books! Ha-ha. Well, I write books about family and about not fitting in your own skin and finding a way to love yourself and finding love along the way. And my most recent releases have been a series of four books, the Rajes, which are homages to my four favorite Jane Austen novels, and the latest was The Emma Project, which, surprise, surprise, is an homage to Jane Austen’s Emma!

Sarah: Never would have guessed. Utterly shocking.

Sonali: [Laughs] It truly is!

Sarah: All right, first and foremost, right at the top: ho-lee crap! Congratulations! On being picked for Mindy’s Book Studio! Please tell me everything. Oh my gosh! I read the press release and said out loud, at my desk, holy shit! That’s amazing! And, like, texted people like, there was, I, I can only imagine you had to put your head between your knees.

Sonali: Yes, and that just about describes it. I mean, my – holy shit! Like, I must have said holy shit and, you know, other words that I don’t want to say here over and over again. I did need my agent to speak for me at – [laughs] – at that meeting for a bit because, as she said, you know, I think Sonali is incapacitated, and I was? As you can imagine, it is, you know, I mean, I keep saying a, a dream come true, and that almost sounds trite, because there, there, there are no words. The only way I can explain it is, if you had asked me exactly what I wanted at this point in my career, the one thing I really needed, the absolute best thing I could imagine happening to me and my books right now, would be this. And so it is absolutely exactly what I needed in this moment, it’s exactly what I asked the universe for, and here it is! So there’s just really, really no other way to explain it. It’s perfect. I feel like Mindy has done things in the past two decades; I mean, when you think about when The Office came out, it has been a really long time that she’s been working to make this space, to tell these stories –

Sarah: Yeah!

Sonali: – to kind of literally bamboozle her way into a place where there was no space for us. And so what’s she’s done is amazing, and so she has always been – I mean, not just, you know, what she’s done for diverse creators is one thing, but I think just as a writer, the respect I have, the way that she is able to bring together humor and emotion and just connection and disconnection and this complete quirkiness that – I mean, her humor, I think, is like the humor I have inside me? It’s, it’s, there’s just something about her writing speaks to me. I mean, if you’ve watched everything right from, you know, the, the complete – I don’t want to say the word madness, but the complete definition of quirk that The Office was to The Sex Lives of College Girls on Hulu: it’s perfection. I mean, just the laughing and the crying being brought together. If I could, if you could ask me, what do I want to write? It would be that. And so to have someone I respect that much, just simply as a writer, and that has done so much, to have her pick it up, there’s, it’s just a whole different level of smugness that I feel – [laughs] – and joy and pride!

Sarah: You should! I mean, this is like the, the greatest book unboxing moment ever, right?

Sonali: Yes! Oh my gosh!

Sarah: Like, you open the box and Mindy Kaling’s in there!

Sonali: [Laughs] Yeah! She, she literally did just, like, jump right out of that box at me, and, and the number of weird connections are just strange: I’ve had her on my vision board for I don’t know how long, and it’s, I’d just writ-, like, I had forgotten about that. It’s just exciting beyond words, and when The Office was out, my young nephews, who were then, you know, teenagers, used to call me Kelly Mami – this is the weirdest story – which means Auntie Kelly, ‘cause of Kelly in The Office. I don’t think – [laughs] – I don’t know if it was a compliment, naturally, so it’s not a compliment, but just these weird connections going back.

 As you know, it is not easy to, to break out writing the kind of stories I write. It has been like starting from scratch and standing on the shoulders of a few people who have been pushing and pushing and pushing at that point and kind of reaping the benefits of all the work they did and then having to do all this work to push myself. It’s not been easy to find overwhelmingly large readership, which you need to last in this business.

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: There have been moments when, you know, my agent has said, my gosh, it almost feels at this point to break out you are either going to need a celebrity or, you know, a teenage BookTok-er with a million followers! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah!

Sonali: You know, to, to kind of really break out of this thing which you feel trapped in simply because of the way that the industry has been structured for so long?

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: And so I was begging the universe. I’ll just admit it: I was the begging the universe for this and I got it! [Laughs]

Sarah: How long have you been keeping this a secret? How long have you known about this?

Sonali: [Laughs] See, there’s someone who knows! It’s, it’s been a while; it’s been a few months. Another funny story is that my editor, when she told me about it, this was a Thursday, and she said, can we set up a meeting for Monday? And it’s really good news. And I was like, you cannot do this to me!

Sarah: Oh my God! Sonali, that’s three days! That’s three – she’s Thursday to Mon-, no! You be like, no! We set this meeting up right now!

Sonali: [Laughs] Now! But she said, I really cannot, and I love my editor to death, like, love her, and she said, I, I promise you, you won’t regret it. And which didn’t make anything better in that moment.

Sarah: No! Like, I’m stressed on your behalf, and it’s done! Oh my gosh!

Sonali: Yeah, that face you’re making right now, that was me! So again, this works out really well, as that was the weekend my daughter and I were going to go watch Hasan Minhaj in Champagne, where she goes to school, so I had a really busy, really full weekend, which I was so – so I kind of said, you know, I have this, this theory that to get anything done in life, the one thing you have to get control over is your mind, and so this was a great exercise to compartmentalize, and you have to do this in this business so much. Like, even right now, I really have to be writing my next book, and this is all very exciting – [laughs] – and I want to binge the entire Mindy Project from beginning to end and all that and only talk about this, but you have to compartmentalize, right –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – that is the one thing. The strength of your mind is the one thing, and so I had to really exercise it that weekend and focus on my daughter and me and have this mother/daughter thing, and of course Hasan Minhaj makes it really easy because that show is spectacular! And then I kept thinking, you know what? Who are the voices in South Asian media and entertainment? And this was my best-case scenario; I had no idea. My husband was like, you have to know; there’s no way you don’t know what it is. And, like, I really don’t; I had no idea. This could literally be, oh, look at this beautiful cover, but I, I was, you know, this was best-case scenario, but, but, but people like Hasan Minhaj and Mindy, you know, like, just doing that at that weekend somehow was significant because I kept thinking, here’s another South Asian creator who has managed to create this completely authentic voice –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – you know, the voice of a South Asian writer and comic and entertainer. It’s something, just, without giving up too much of that, still staying true to that and staying true to the American identity and, like, embracing all of that into this one role. I think that that’s what’s so exciting about people who are in that space today.

Sarah: Oh, for sure!

Sonali: And so it was, it was just this fantastic coming-together of things.

Sarah: So what does this mean for The Vibrant Years? For anyone who hasn’t heard both you and me screaming about it, your book is part of Mindy’s Book Studio. What does that mean for your book? How much can you talk about?

Sonali: So at this point I don’t know a whole lot more than you know? [Laughs] What was in that press release, but what it means is that Mindy Kaling and Amazon Studios and Amazon Publishing have this collaboration which is a new imprint –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – and one of the aims of that imprint is to give voice to diverse voices, but also to go from page to, to screen, and so it’s this whole bunch of things coming together. What I know is that the first time my book cover was flashed at the world was in the hands of Mindy Kaling. So I kind of –

Sarah: Oh my God.

Sonali: [Laughs] Right?

Sarah: Oh. My God.

Sonali: So, so that, that I’m hoping is a precursor to what that means for my book. So it, it means that she has handpicked it, and of course in her words – and I cannot, you know, I have to say this out loud, because I haven’t said this out loud yet, because it has been so overwhelming – is that she absolutely loved it –

Sarah: Yes!

Sonali: – and so to me the most important thing is that she’s behind it and there are a lot of people listening when she speaks –

Sarah: Yes.

Sonali: – which she has worked very hard for, and that’s, that goes behind the book. Also the fact that it was this book and this particular moment when she was looking to launch this imprint, all of that is magic and a lot of, I think, hard work. It’s, it’s that thing about opportunity, hard work meeting opportunity and the magic –

Sarah: I was just thinking it was like what Seneca says, that –

Sonali: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – luck is the intersection of opportunity and preparation.

Sonali: Absolutely, and yeah! And all that grinding. So that’s, that’s as much as I know? I’m hoping, I’m told over and over again that it’s a very good thing –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – and I hope it is.

Sarah: What I really hope is, I mean, ideally, you know, the, the trajectory that, the push for marginalized creators and marginalized voices is a very steep hill in publishing still. The, the channels are white; the, the production team, a lot of them are white; everything through publishing is a very white-centered perspective. And so the trek to get through that process as a marginalized voice is very, very steep. It’s like, you know, the ten percent grade on your treadmill; you’re like, this is ridiculous; why am I doing this? And what I would love is for that to be like, you know, flat walk in the park for everybody. But what I really hope is that for Mindy’s Studio and all of the other imprints that are focused on elevating the voices of the marginalized is that the, that the grade comes down so much that more people can walk up the hill and that your walk is a little easier.

Sonali: No doubt, and, and you know, I always think of so, so you’re, well, when you, you were making that hand to show the hill, and it actually is a rock wall – [laughs] – it feels like, it has felt like that. It’s –

Sarah: [Laughs] So it’s more like a total vertical; forget the treadmill; it’s just a wall.

Sonali: Yeah. It’s not even so much climbing it as, you know, like when you’re traveling in Switzerland, all of the, there are other parts of the world where they build the roads kind of, you know, spiraling up hills? But they, they just blast through the – [laughs] – you know, through the hill? And it feels like that; it feels like you’re running full force into the hill, but I always think of, you know, whenever a new trail is being created, there’s no trail, and the more people –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – who walk on it, the more it flattens and –

Sarah: Yes.

Sonali: – and that was the reason that I was saying that, you know, it feels like these are big names today but, you know, twenty-plus years of work –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – have gone into that. Like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – even in romance and in publishing, we are not the first. There are many, many shoulders upon which we stand. Not enough. Like, everyone once in a while there’ll be a new voice who’ll say, oh, this is the first! And no, really, you’re not, but there’s something really painful about the fact that it feels to many people like you are, which proves the whole point. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: There’s this nice circular irony going on. I think that’s the whole point, right? To have the path look the same for all of us.

Sarah: Yeah. So what are you most excited about? Is it the part where Mindy Kaling, like, showed the whole world your cover for the first time? Is, what, what part are you just the most excited about? What’s next?

Sonali: That, of course, but I think for me, this particular story: that’s the most beautiful piece of it is that this particular story, because I’ve always kind of tried to avoid writing the narrative that’s been written before –

Sarah: Yeah!

Sonali: – and trying to kind of keep away from any stereotype or any oft-told tale –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Sonali: – which also deserves to be told, but this particular story, I keep saying it’s everything I believe about being a woman. It’s the story of a hot sixty-five-year-old Indian woman who feels like her life is just starting because she spent so much of it living for others, and yet kind of espousing this thing about living her best life, living her best life, and yet having lost huge chunks of her long ago, and reclaiming that. And so it’s about what that means, and, you know, it’s mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law and what we’ve been taught to believe about that, and granddaughters and grandmothers and what we’ve been taught about that.

So it’s this particular story, which is so much of what I want to say about being a woman in the world today. Not even just a brown woman: about just being a woman, and I know that I’m kind of narrowing it down to that one gender, but so much of the patriarchy rests on that construct, and then it harms all genders, and it harms everything else, and, and I think, to me, if you ask, ask me in terms of what I’m trying to do with my writing, that has been it. That, you know, that’s, that’s spotlighting the damage that’s been done because of how our society is structured, thanks to the patriarchy and thanks to, you know, the racial ladder and thanks to all of those things, what, what that has meant to each one of us growing up.

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: The stories we’ve been told, the stories we’ve had to decondition, all of that is in this book for me. And then to have, have the power of someone like Mindy, who has addressed similar things, to be behind that, I think that’s the true kind of, that’s the piece that’s really exciting me. Like, there is nothing that – you know, you write books and then you’re like, oh my gosh! There’s, everybody’s going to read this! But this is a book that I cannot get enough people to read, I feel –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – because I feel like something will be found; something will be found inside you.

Sarah: So what happens in The Vibrant Years? And have you talked to Mindy Kaling directly? Have you gotten to have a conversation with her yet?

Sonali: Not yet! [Laughs] So that is a thing I, I am truly, truly excited about. I’ve spoken to people who work with her, but I have not yet. It’s all very nascent, and we just announced it, and the, the, the superstitious, don’t-dream-too-big kind of strained person inside me keeps hoping that this, you know, that this isn’t just going to be another huge, big dream that will need several small steps to get over, but yeah, so I have great hopes. But no, I haven’t – you know, it’s, that at least must happen!

Sarah: Yes!

Sonali: That’s the thing my children are most excited about.

Sarah: I’m just, I’m just having visions of you, like, you guys go out to lunch, you do a little shopping, maybe watch some TV together.

Sonali: Would that not be great?

Sarah: Yeah, that would be amazing.

Sonali: Yeah. Her fashion sense is, is something, and I will, you know, it’s going to be – and I love it. I’m like, yes, can you imagine pictures with that? [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my gosh.

Sonali: With the two of us?

Sarah: I mean, it better be the only thing on your Instagram for like a year, right?

Sonali: I’m trying not to make just that one picture or those two pictures of her being the only ones! [Laughs]

Sarah: Have you seen this? Have you seen this picture? Want to make sure.

Sonali: Have you missed –

Sarah: You didn’t miss this, right?

Sonali: I just sent it, I just sent it out in my newsletter, too, because, you know, not everybody had seen it on my other social media, so.

Sarah: I mean, look, every time I look at Instagram on my phone, it’s showing me people I don’t follow, so I think this is a good strategy; I think you need to show as many people – like, have you brought it to the grocery store and just shown it like, hey!? See?

Sonali: I might do that! I do that with my, my, the cover of my, you’ve seen the cover of my cell phone is my books –

Sarah: Yeah!

Sonali: – so I think I might just, just make Mindy with my book in her hand as the next one! [Laughs]

Sarah: I mean, why not?

Sonali: Why not? I mean, my children, ha, who cares, but, but Mindy!

Sarah: I have an idea for you.

Sonali: Go on.

Sarah: Mindy mehndi. Get some henna –

Sonali: Oh! [Laughs]

Sarah: – and illustrate that just all the way up your arm. Mindy mehndi. You could, like, you could just be like, listen, Mindy, I have a concept for you! Here you go!

Sonali: I’ll tell you what I’ll do: that will be my swag. I’m going to make, I’m going to have a mehndi pattern with Mindy’s face on it and – [laughs] – that’s going to be swag at the next conference!

Sarah: I love this. Okay, so, in case I haven’t said it clearly, oh my God, congratulations; I am so excited for you!

Sonali: Thank you so much! I, I, you know, it’s like I, I had no idea there’s another space beyond excitement? I –

Sarah: Yeah! [Laughs]

Sonali: – I think that’s where I am?

Sarah: Catatonic? [Laughs]

Sonali: ‘Cause – it’s, it’s catatonic with a whole lot of terror and –

Sarah: Yep!

Sonali: – just a ridiculous, absurd amount of joy.

Sarah: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay.

So changing the topic just a little bit, there’s also something else I wanted to ask you about, which is this amazing interview you gave for Town & Country. Okay, first of all, I love this interview so much! You held nothing back, and it’s amazing. I’ll link it in the show notes. It is exquisite, ‘cause it’s all about the allure of stories about royalty, and you write about people of very high status, whether it’s wealth or nobility or family reputation. Like, that’s a pretty standard part of your writing, and it’s part of a lot of the stories inside Bollywood, but you, you went, you went off. It was glorious. Could you – [laughs] – you share the context of what, of how this interview came to be? ‘Cause I love it so much, by the way; like, seriously, I read it and I was like, yes! Sonali, tell them!

[Laughter]

Sonali: So, so, I will say that, yeah, it was really fun to do that interview, and I was not expecting all of my quotes to go in there, and I was really thrilled, because often, you know, I, I say what’s on my mind, and it’s, it’s tamped down for general consumption – [laughs] – and some-, maybe something I need to be grateful for and maybe not, but Emily did such a great job, I think, with representing what I was trying to say.

A lot of people take the royal family very seriously. I do not. To give you context, India got freedom from the British, from British rule in 1947. My mother was born in 1947, so I am one generation just removed from, you know, my grandparents came, you know, went to adulthood in the British Empire, so when I was growing up, colonization was a shadow that was very, very deep and thick.

Sarah: And present.

Sonali: Right?

Sarah: Yes, and immediate, yeah!

Sonali: And very, I mean, it was right there. We were under it. We were seeing it in the behavior of people; we were seeing it in the consciousness of how people felt about themselves. And all of that, like the attitudes, this whole put your head down and work, going from there to the confidence and the owning your own country thing, I have watched that journey, I have taken that journey, right? And so any time that I see this almost sycophantic obsession with British royalty, it feels like a personal punch to my gut.

Sarah: Yeah. And, and there’s been a lot of it right now; there’s been a lot of collective obsession.

Sonali: Yes! You know, I completely understand the piece of it that’s related to Meghan Markle, because of course. What a lovely thing for some people to, you know, for people to get to see who hadn’t ever imagined. When I, I bear no ill will, naturally, on a personal front to anyone –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Sonali: – but as an institution, it’s astounding to me that so many people give it the, give it importance without holding it accountable.

Sarah: Yes!

Sonali: And this kind of has, it has become harder and harder for me to read Regency romance.

Sarah: Yes! Absolutely!

Sonali: So a lot of that, I have, you know, I understand, again, the escape; I understand all of that, but I do have to also manage rage when it comes to that. And having said all of that, you know, I’m constantly exploring privilege in my books –

Sarah: Yes, absolutely.

Sonali: – because I was raised with a lot of privilege, and I acknowledge that. In, in terms of growing up in this, you know, in this anglicized, yet very progressive bubble in India, I had a real advantage, you know, of my time, except my gender – [laughs] – you know, growing up, and I, I absolutely acknowledge all the advantages that gives me and all the blind spots it gives me, and I’m constantly trying to find that. And of course there is the whole caste system, which adds a whole dimension to it.

Sarah: Yes.

Sonali: Where, while I cannot speak on behalf of, you know, those whose experience I don’t have, I’m, you know, those are all things that I’m aware of –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – when I’m writing. And the thing, the piece that I can do in my own voice is explore the privilege I’ve had and all of the ugly history it comes with, but also, you know, what we’re taught, what we’re taught to – and I see, you know, see this here in the – because we live in such a laddered society, each one of us should be looking at, where am I on this ladder? What does that mean, and what do I owe, and what do I need to, you know? And so I’m, I, I want to explore that, and I think that the Rajes are very much that.

Sarah: Yes!

Sonali: You know, trying to, trying to explore what that means and what can be done with it and how much is yours and how much is accidental and all of that. And so I think that with that interview, coming back to your question – and I love how much diverse royalty we’re seeing in romance today, and it is simply this fabulous way in which I think authors today are giving to the new generations a thing they never had, which is a chance to see themselves in that hallowed space, right?

Sarah: Yes.

Sonali: And so for me it was more about understanding what it means to actually be from there and the fact that royalty, wherever in the world it is placed, you know, comes with its own ugly history, because it’s literally like this whole accident of birth anointing you with something.

Sarah: Yes.

Sonali: And, and for me it is really kind of trying to dig into what that means.

Sarah: Yes, absolutely. There’s a journalist named Michael Hobbes who has talked about how, in his opinion, royalty and the concept of royalty is a human rights violation.

Sonali: Is he the guy whose book starts with a thing about Ireland being a neighbor, being the neighbor?

Sarah: With clowns? No, I don’t think –

Sonali: Yes!

Sarah: – that was him, but that was really good metaphor.

Sonali: [Laughs] Oh my gosh!

Sarah: Yes, and also your grandfather was killed by a clown!

Sonali: [Laughs] Yes, exactly! You know, I mean, I was trying to explain to my children that we also learned in school reforms by, you know, by colonizers and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – how much they did for us and, you know, even back then it was just, it was infuriating to me, and it just tells you that, you know, that, that this whole history is written by the victor thing –

Sarah: Yes.

Sonali: – is just so, it’s –

Sarah: Pernicious.

Sonali: It’s an ugly thing, yes.

Sarah: What are you working on right now? Aside from calming your blood pressure, you know, in anticipation of hanging out with Mindy Kaling, you know, at Target.

Sonali: On, on a moment-to-moment basis.

Sarah: Yeah, you know.

Sonali: [Laughs] Like, okay, think about something else!

Sarah: Just texting your pal Mindy!

Sonali: Yes! Someday, someday. That’s the next thing I’m asking the universe for.

Sarah: Yes!

Sonali: Mindy’s number! Send me Mindy’s number! My –

Sarah: I need to send emojis to Mindy Kaling, universe, please!

Sonali: [Laughs] Yes! Can you imagine? Oh gosh. I will, I will text you the first time I do that.

Sarah: [Gasps] Please do! Oh my gosh!

Sonali: Screenshot it to you! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Sonali: So the next thing, so of course all of this is happening when I just have a book out. It’s been three weeks –

Sarah: Of course!

Sonali: – since The Emma Project is out.

Sarah: Yes. Emma just came out!

Sonali: It just came out, and I have my next book due August 15th –

Sarah: Oh, piece of cake!

Sonali: – yes,  and then this will come out November on Amazon, then December publicly, so yeah, it’s going to be really relaxed here. [Laughs]

But I am working on the next book, which is also women’s fiction, and it is, it gets into female friendships in a way where they are, they are a love story where the breakups are life-altering and heartbreaking in at least as much as romantic interests breaking your heart. And you know this; every one of us knows what female friendships are. They become part of you –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – I feel, almost more than any romantic relationship can ever be. This, I’m, I’m writing this story where, basically where a surrogacy arrangement gets in the way of friendship that is completely definitive to these women, and, you know, we are twenty years down the line, and kind of something is forcing us to go back and open up that knot of pain and loss.

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: And of course there’s, you know, there’s this, there are these competitive aunts trying to get the – [laughs] –

Sarah: Always.

Sonali: – get their sons weddings to win the, you know, the best wedding sangeet, which is the, the dances before the wedding, and so, you know, it’s this whole mishmash of, of, of joy and pain. But yeah, but it is, I think, I’m really getting into what female friendships and the loss of them can mean.

Sarah: Yeah. Which is hard, because there’s a lot of attention paid to the beginning and the maintenance and the end of romantic relationships, but –

Sonali: Exactly.

Sarah: – I think a lot of people go through the beginning and the maintenance and the end of friendships and feel very alone, because there’s not a lot of popular culture about it! There’s not a lot of –

Sonali: Yes.

Sarah: – of common understanding. Like, everyone knows, okay, oh, so-and-so just broke up. All right, let’s bring them ice cream; let’s, let’s, you know, go out for drinks. If you lose a friend, there’s no prescribed path for that, whether you’re in the situation or just witnessing it.

Sonali: Yeah, and it’s almost, I feel, more, more painful –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – in, in that, of course, it doesn’t get, you know, the same amount of –

Sarah: Attention.

Sonali: – healing path –

Sarah: Yeah!

Sonali: – you know, and, and attention, but, but also in that it is more definitive; it is more, we allow it to become more part of ourselves than we do, you know, there’s something about a romantic relationship that keeps it in a certain place, but our boundaries with, you know, connections with other, with friends is a whole different thing. There are no boundaries to that, and there are, there’s no pattern to that, and there’s just something about the pain of that being wrenched away from you, and then not being able to acknowledge it and having no path, no –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – no, no divorce, no breakup –

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: – you know, songs, and yeah.

Sarah: Yeah! And it’s, it’s almost looked down on. Like if you say to some-, oh, what’s wrong? Oh, I’m, I’m going through a breakup; I’m going through a divorce; my sister is getting divorced. Like, I understand that. I don’t have a ready reply for, yeah, I’m, I’m going through a friend breakup, other than, oh my gosh, I’m so sorry; I’ve been there; it’s devastating. But there’s, like you said –

Sonali: Yeah.

Sarah: – there’s no healing path that’s already laid out that we kind of know what to do.

So what books are you reading that you want to tell people about? ‘Cause I have a book rec for you.

Sonali: Oh yay! You want to go first? You want me to go?

Sarah: I’ll go first. Okay. So I’m a total schmuck because this book isn’t coming out for a while, but I’m pretty sure you could probably get a copy. Have you read Killers of a Certain Age by Deanna Raybourn?

Sonali: No! But I have heard from other people!

Sarah: Sonali, I read it in one day. I inhaled it.

Sonali: Oh my gosh!

Sarah: I started it on Friday night, and I made my husband take my phone away ‘cause I was going to keep reading it, and then I just, all day Saturday, I just finished it. It is so good. There are four women; they have been assassins their whole lives. There’s lots of murder. Like, there is lots of killing on the page, I will say. But they are trained to go after the very, very worst through an extra-governmental organization that originated with hunting down Nazis. So their original targets were Nazis after World War II, and then they started going after sex traffickers, drug traffickers, general shitful humans who remain, you know, in the wind, who never get what’s coming to them? So they’re all sixty – so there’s two timelines: there’s the parts of the story where you learn how they became trained and what their missions were, and then there’s the current story where they are all sixty, they’re invited on this cruise as part of their retirement before they start collecting their pension, and they’re on this cruise together and they realize that the organization they work for is trying to kill them, and they have to figure out who’s trying to kill them and how to not get killed before they can solve the problem. And it is so good! It is –

Sonali: Wow!

Sarah: – it is like a little rage cake of perfection, and the best thing is like what you were saying with The Vibrant Years: it, the book relies on a lot of common stereotypes about aging and relies on sexism as camouflage, and it’s, it’s just, it’s really good. I think you’ll really like it. [Laughs]

Sonali: Oh my gosh, I cannot wait! Because it makes perfect sense, right? If you have done that kind of work for someone you know too much.

Sarah: Yep! Yep!

Sonali: [Laughs] So you kind of, you’re done with – and, and in a beautiful metaphor, your purpose is over, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Sonali: – aging kind of, you know, is a –

Sarah: Yep.

Sonali: – is, is, parallels that. I love it, I love it, I have to reach out and ask – beg – [laughs] – for it.

So I am, I’ve been all over the place with my reading.

Sarah: Yeah, me too.

Sonali: It’s been, I just finished The Paper Palace, which, I love the writing. It was just really gorgeous writing, and the, something about, about unfurling a really complicated story –

Sarah: Yes.

Sonali: – and for a debut, I mean, of course it’s the, the, the author is someone who is almost like, you know, establishment in the publishing world, but it is her novel debut, so the confidence with which she does it was like a master class for me. It was just –

Sarah: Ooh!

Sonali: – really beautiful writing?

But I have, I’ve, I’ve just finished Priscilla Oliveras’s West Side Love Story –

Sarah: Oooh!

Sonali: – and I don’t know: this is such a me thing, but I love the, the nice-guy hero.

Sarah: Oh, me too!

Sonali: I love a responsible, you know, I mean, that’s the kind of man I love in real life! That’s the kind of, that’s my, that’s my catnip.

Sarah: Oh –

Sonali: I just – and so, you know, someone who, like we were saying, someone who needs to do the right thing, yet wants to follow his heart. You know, puts, puts family and people dependent on him before himself, all of that. But she just brings so much joy of, of a tightly knit family, of, you know, there, there’s themes of gentrification in San Antonio, Texas. It’s, it’s really, I think it’s her best yet.

Sarah: Wow!

Sonali: What else? There is this, another debut called The Candid Life of Meena Dave, and I always read it as Meena Da-vay, which is the Indian last name, and there’s a play on that in the, in the book itself. It’s this young Indian woman, racially Indian, but she was adopted. So there’s this whole interracial adoption thing going on; she was adopted by a white family, has never really had any connection with her, you know, the culture of her birth parents, and she’s this recluse, and this stranger leaves her an apartment in Boston.

Sarah: Ooh!

Sonali: And it’s this, it’s populated entirely by this motley crew of Indian aunties, and it’s just this lovely exploration of identity of this person kind of, you know, of her falling headlong into her history, into this culture she has no, you know, connection to, and of course there’s a delightful, handsome neighbor –

Sarah: I should –

Sonali: – with the most adorable puppy. [Laughs]

Sarah: – so!

Sonali: It’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s very, very well written and delightful, by Namrata Patel, so I really, really am enjoying that.

And I’m reading Barbara O’Neal’s – this one’s not out yet – it’s called This Place of Wonder, and she’s another person who just, I love her writing. It is just, every sentence is rich. You know, there’s just a few authors who are able to make, like, every sentence layered –

Sarah: Yes.

Sonali: – and rich and just a pleasure. It’s like she’s an artist and her words are paintings –

Sarah: Yep.

Sonali: – and it’s just so beautiful. And this one gets, really digs into addiction and infidelity and also, you know, women supporting women, but also how we’re pitted against each other.

Sarah: Yep.

Sonali: It’s this whole – by the weakness of men, and then we’re taught it’s our problem, and so this whole thing, it’s, it’s, it’s this gorgeous tapestry, so I’m really loving that too.

Sarah: Wow! Thank you so much for doing this interview!

Sonali: Thank you so much for having me, Sarah. It’s always a joy to speak to you, and just, always just so much, you know, when we’re talking that, that I make, oh my gosh! There are people who get it!

[Laughter]

Sonali: So that’s, that’s always such, such a gift. Thank you, thank you.

Sarah: Where can people find you if they wish to find you online?

Sonali: There’s sonalidev.com, which, by the way, I’m working on updating. [Laughs]

Sarah: Ooh, good luck! Been there; not fun! Good luck.

Sonali: Oh no! Oh! You’re supposed to say it’s going to be fine! It’s going to be fine!

Sarah: It’s going to be great, but it’s a pain in the ass! Let’s be real; it’s a pain in the ass! I know!

Sonali: I am going to say that this is going to be easy, and then I’ll send you a text when it blows up in my face.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Sonali: But anyway, so sonalidev.com, still in its old – [laughs] – old state, and truly I think I’m most, my most authentic self right now on social media, which is, you know, in itself, which is an oxymoron, but I’m my most authentic self on Instagram. That’s probably the best place to follow me if you want to kind of know me.

Sarah: Perfect.

Sonali: And of course I have a newsletter, which is, I think, fun, because I do these three Rs. Have I ever told you about them? It’s a recipe, a recommendation, and a really bad joke from my family that shows up on my group chats. [Laughs]

Sarah: Ah, I end every episode of my show with a bad joke, so you’re speaking all of my languages, yes.

Sonali: Bad joke, ah.

Sarah: I have one for you!

Sonali: Tell me!

Sarah: If kings sleep on a king mattress and queens sleep on a queen mattress, where does the prince sleep?

Sonali: [Laughs] Oh gosh!

Sarah: On the heir mattress.

Sonali: I – see, that’s a good one! I love that! That’s not a bad joke.

Sarah: Isn’t that just, oooh!

Sonali: That’s a –

Sarah: I also have another bad one for you if you’d like. I’ve never used this on the podcast.

What is the difference between Dubai and Abu Dhabi?

Sonali: Oh gosh, tell me.

Sarah: People in Dubai do not like the Flintstones, but people in Abu Dhabi do!

Sonali: Oh no!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Sonali: Okay, that one, yes.

Sarah: That’s terrible, right?

Sonali: That’s terrible. I almost want my kids to be little again, so I can –

Sarah: Abu Dhabi do! [Laughs]

Sonali: – yeah, annoy them with that one! So that’s really – mine, I, I might as well tell you the one that went out in my newsletter today that my brother actually for real sent me, and I’m like, are you serious? Like, every one of his jokes is like, are you serious?

So it’s, a husband asks his wife, why don’t you tell me when you orgasm? And she says, because I don’t like to call you at work.

[Laughter]

Sonali: So that’s, that’s the kind of bad jokes I get from my family, and you’re welcome –

Sarah: Thank you!

Sonali: – to share them. [Laughs]

Sarah: Thank you! Everyone who listens to this episode is just going to be on the floor by the end of this part.

Sonali: I know! I’m just, that’s so stupid! Like, that is what I say to every one of my brother’s. And this one is actually appropriate. His jokes are just incredibly inappropriate, and I’m like, please don’t, please don’t put them on social media and tell people you’re my brother. [Laughs] I don’t want to deal with that! I love you, but –

Sarah: Do not tell people you are related to me. Do not!

Sonali: Yeah. Yeah, he used to, like, right in the beginning, he used to actually comment on every one of my posts with, like, just something like, I changed you diaper, you know?

Sarah: Ohhh, bro, nooo! Nooo!

Sonali: I’m like, you know, yeah, yeah, you, you’re out, you’re out here trying to look all wise, and I’ve changed your diapers. [Laughs] Whatever! And, you know, something about stinky poop, and I’m like, okay, we’re not doing this. Let’s not do this. This is a public thing; this is my job.

Sarah: Yeah.

Sonali: This is my work; we’re not going to do this. So, so anyway, that’s my newsletter, and when you sign up for it you get this free recipe booklet, and there’s al-, always recipes in it because, you know, food and my books and –

Sarah: Yes, it’s a thing.

Sonali: – and yes.

Sarah: It’s a whole thing. Yep.

Sonali: It’s a thing! [Laughs] Oh, I also have, if you are a reader and a fan and, you know, are very specifically interested in my books, then I have a reader group called Dev Nation –

Sarah: I love it.

Sonali: – which is, yeah. So those are the ways to stay in touch!

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Sonali Dev for hanging out with me, and congratulations again. Thank you to Jen Jacobs for editing this episode, thank you to garlicknitter for the transcript, and thank you to Jes Brock for setting up the interview. And thank you for listening and hanging out with me.

We have already had several jokes, so I will not force you to listen to the Kathleen Turner version of my voice for much longer, but thank you again for being part of the podcast and for listening each week.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

Get vaccinated, wear your mask, and please take care of yourself.

[end of lovely music]