396. Red Lipsticks and Murderous Relations: A Conversation With Deanna Raybourn

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 396. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, and with me today is Deanna Raybourn, author of the Veronica Speedwell series, which has been described as Miss Fisher meets Sherlock Holmes, and yes, that story checks out. We are going to talk about her latest book, out this week, called A Murderous Relation. We’re also going to talk about Victorian sleuthing, connections to Schitt’s Creek, recognizing people when you first meet them, the future of Stoker and Veronica, plus we take a detour into red lipstick and the power of being fully yourself.

We also talk a little bit about travel, but this was recorded before the COVID-19 outbreak was so prevalent in the news, so I don’t want you to think we were being flippant about travel and that we recorded this right now. This is from a few weeks ago.

I love this book series, and I hope that you’ll check it out. If you are curious, I will have links to all of the books and information on where you can find out more about Deanna Raybourn in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

Today’ show is being brought to you by Native Deodorant. Native Deodorant is formulated without aluminum, parabens, or talc. It’s also vegan, it’s never tested on animals, and it works. I have been trying the coconut vanilla scent, which I learned later was their most popular. Wow, do I really like it. I have pretty sensitive skin and a lot of deodorants will make me break out, but this has been a marvelous experience. You can try it risk-free, free shipping on every order, and Native offers thirty-day-free returns and exchanges in the US. Plus I have a coupon; get ready. For twenty percent off your first purchase, visit nativedeodorant.com and use promo code sARAH, s-A-R-A-H, lowercase s, during checkout. That’s twenty percent off your first purchase at nativedeodorant.com with promo code sarah.

The transcript for this episode is being brought to you by our Patreon community. If you have supported the show at patreon.com/SmartBitches with a pledge of any amount, you are helping me make sure that every episode is accessible to everyone. Thank you so much for that! Monthly pledges begin at one dollar, and if you would like to join our Patreon community, it would be wonderful to have you! Have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

As I mentioned, I will have information about all of the books and the lipsticks – very important – that we talk about, as well as links to where you can find Deanna. I also will end with an absolutely dreadful joke, because that is how I do things, and they’re terrible, and you email me to tell me how much you like them, and then you email me your own terrible jokes! It’s a wonderful thing, so I’m going to keep that going.

But now, let’s do this podcast. On with my conversation about red lipstick and murderous relations with Deanna Raybourn.

[music]

Deanna Raybourn: Hey, everybody! I’m Deanna Raybourn, and I write the – I’m going to, I’m going to blow my own horn for a moment – the Edgar-nominated –

Sarah: Hell yeah!

Deanna: – Veron- – [laughs] – Veronica Speedwell mystery series. They are Victorian mysteries, and if you are not familiar with them, think Miss Fisher meets Sherlock Holmes.

Sarah: That’s actually a really good way to reference it.

Deanna: Thank you! I just came up with that this morning, and I was like, oh yeah!

Sarah: Very true, because they have a, Veronica and Miss, and, and Phryne have a very similar utter lack of fucks.

Deanna: Oh, they so do, and you know, when I ask people, you know, who Veronica reminds them of or, you know, any other female sleuths that they like, Phryne is the one who comes up most often, so I feel like they are, they are sisters under the skin.

Sarah: Oh, yeah! And they’re utterly unapologetic about being who they are, which is one of the fun things about reading or watching them.

Deanna: Oh girl, it’s the fun thing about writing ‘em too!

Sarah: Well, I, that’s actually my first question, because I know that in this book they go undercover in a brothel –

Deanna: [Laughs]

Sarah: – which sounds like a lot of fun to write; I’m guessing so?

Deanna: Oh my God. Yeah, there were so many –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: – so many deleted scenes from this book, you have no idea.

Sarah: What?!

Deanna: Yeah. But you know, we had to cut for time. But it, I have, I have just a ball writing Veronica anyway. And then the idea, when I, it first came to me, this thought that I could send them undercover in a place like that, I just went, oh God, this whole thing is just going to feel like a party. And it really, it was so much fun to write.

Sarah: It seemed like you were having a really good time! How much, how much research did you do into –

Deanna: [Laughs]

Sarah: – you know, Victorian brothels? Is your search history just absolutely exquisite at this point?

Deanna: You know, my search history probably has me on so many different watch lists for so many different reasons?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: Yeah, I, I, I actually learned a fair bit. I mean, technically, in, in the book it’s explained that it’s not actually a brothel, but I mean, that’s pretty much splitting hairs.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: It is, it’s, it’s a private establishment where money doesn’t change hands, because that’s vulgar, but everybody knows what everybody’s there for, and there are all sorts of entertainments set up, and, and yeah, and here’s the funny thing: it’s actually kind of a, the, the one I created in the book is a sort of amalgamation of a lot of places that actually existed! You know, Vic-, Queen Victoria’s oldest son, who eventually became king as Edward VII, really liked to have a good time. And –

[Laughter]

Deanna: – and the more you, you kind of delve into the sorts of places he went and the, the kind of habits that he had, the more interesting it is, and, you know, I, I kind of pulled a little piece from this place and a little piece from that place and kind of put it all together, and, and, yeah, like I said, it was just a real good time to write.

Sarah: One of the things I really liked about that particular section of the book was the description of what it looked like inside. Thematically, artistically, the food porn – that was a lot of food porn –

Deanna: [Laughs]

Sarah: – a lot of – and, and poor Stoker’s hungry, like, the whole book. All he does is eat, this poor man.

Deanna: Yes.

Sarah: He’s just –

Deanna: Right.

Sarah: – he’s just a non-stop –

Deanna: Yup.

Sarah: – feast.

Deanna: Yeah. That’s a running joke with Stoker, that he’s always eating, and it’s usually something sweet.

Sarah: Right?

 Deanna: Like, constantly. In, in that way, Stoker’s like an overgrown toddler. You always have to – Veronica has gotten to the point now where she carries around food with her –

Sarah: Yep.

Deanna: – be-, especially so-, you know, a tin of, like, honeycomb or, you know, some, some little mint drops or, or just something for him to, to snack on, because he gets really hangry –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: – if you don’t keep him fed at all times. But no, I had a, I had a wonderful time kind of creating this establishment and the different rooms that I chose and, and how they were put together. Every bit of that was just imagination. That was just kind of, you know, hey, what would be fun to write? And that was always, it, it is always my default when I’m working. If I can’t figure out what to do in a scene or with a plot point or with a character, I always go back to, well, what would be the most fun to write? Because generally if it’s fun to write, it’s fun to read.

Sarah: Oh, that’s so true.

Deanna: I’m fairly lazy, too, so I, I –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: – I like to do the thing that’s going to give me the biggest bang for the buck, you know? And I’m, I’m incredibly fortunate to do what I do for a living, and I, I love it a real lot! And it’s, you know, even on its worst days, there’s, there’s always, you know, kind of rolling around in the back of my mind, the fact that, oh my God, I get paid to do the thing that when I was five years old was my dream job.

Sarah: Yeah.

Deanna: And so anything I can do to make it even more fun is just, you know, it’s the cherry on top of the whipped cream on top of the icing, on top of the – you know. It just, it’s all these different layers of yumminess.

Sarah: So in this edition, it was fun to create a whole brothel!

Deanna: It absolutely was! [Laughs]

Sarah: It seemed like it was. It seemed like, you know, it seemed like a pretty amazing place. I don’t want to spoil the book. I have a rule that anything that happens after twenty percent of the book I consider a spoiler, and I looked, and this was at part thirty-eight percent on my reader.

Deanna: Oh good.

Sarah: So I will, I will take this out if you think it’s also a spoiler –

Deanna: [Laughs] Okay.

Sarah: – but someone walks up and grabs Veronica by the pussy, and she kicks his ass.

Deanna: Yes!

Sarah: That was very satisfying. Thank you for that!

Deanna: [Laughs] Yeah! Yeah, you can leave that in. That’s fine. 

Sarah: Thank you! I appreciate that, because I never want to spoil something!

Deanna: No, I, I – and honestly, I think that’s a thing that a reader could kind of anticipate, is the fact that if a woman, especially at this time, is going undercover in a place like that, where consent is assumed, then something, you know, a, a, a pass or an assault or a, any sort of contact that was not initiated by Veronica, like, you would expect that something inappropriate is going to happen at some point. The, the only question is, how’s Veronica going to deal with it? How’s Stoker going to deal with it? And I, I think we all know how Veronica’s going to deal with it!

Sarah: [Laughs] Yeah. And, and Stoker’s very sanguine about it. Like, huh, Veronica, what are you doing? What’s going on?

Deanna: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, I, I, I allude in each book to a lot of Veronica’s previous adventures –

Sarah: Yes.

Deanna: – and her travels and the things that have happened to her, and if you put the – you know, and the funny thing is, I was, I started writing these books well before Schitt’s Creek started airing, and yet there’s an element of Veronica that reminds me so much of Alexis, because when you’re watching Schitt’s Creek, there will be this little thing – you know, Alexis will just drop in a conversation about how that time she spent two weeks, you know, locked up in the Sultan of Brunei’s palace, and, and just, it, it’s dropped in an afterthought, and that’s the way Veronica’s adventures have always been. It’s these insane things that happened to her, and they’re just kind of mentioned in passing, and we never really learn too much more about it, but when she’s like, you know, yeah, well, when I was held hostage by this Corsican bandit king, and you’re just like –

Sarah: What?

Deanna: – what now? What now?

Sarah: Yeah.

Deanna: And Stoker doesn’t really ever ask for, like, for clarification, and so the reader never really gets clarification on exactly what’s happened to her. We know that she survived the explosion of, of Krakatoa when –

Sarah: Yep!

Deanna: – that volcano was erupting. We know that she’s been through earthquakes and shipwrecks and all kinds of things, and so in the back of my mind, Veronica has been able to take care of herself and always been able to handle herself, and, especially for a woman traveling at this time, it wasn’t the most respectable thing to do.

Sarah: No!

Deanna: There were lady travelers who would, you know, kind of go globetrotting, and they could get away with it, and they didn’t have their maids, and, and a lot of times, just because of, of social expectations, they could get away with saying, you know, how dare you, sir? And, and a man would back off immediately one you made it clear that, that, you know, his advances weren’t welcome. But there were times when women absolutely had to be able to take care of themselves, and, and I feel like Veronica not only would have had those skills, but Veronica would have really deeply enjoyed using them.

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Deanna: You know, I mean, like, I think we’re only about maybe five pages into the very first book, A Curious Beginning, when, you know, she talks about grabbing an umbrella and hurtling after a guy who has broken into her house with, while she’s, you know, kind of issuing this battle scream, going right after him, and sometimes it’s a Viking berserker yell, and she’s –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: – I mean, she flings herself into these situations without a whole lot of consideration for physical danger. So I feel like, yeah, she’s the girl who’s going to say, oh, I don’t think so! –

Sarah: Yeah.

Deanna: – when she’s grabbed inappropriately. And this was inappropriate! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, just a little. Now –

Deanna: And Veronica dealt with it.

Sarah: She, she really did.

Deanna: Yeah.

Sarah: And I, I love the part where she talks about travel and that when you travel, there’s just this wonderful pause, and you start over, and it’s just you, and you don’t have any responsibilities surrounding you; it’s just you out in the world; and you can sort of get a sense that that’s a fundamental part of her character.

Deanna: Absolutely. And, and that’s one of the traits that she gets from me! Because I, I love that moment when you’re going into the airport and, and you get through security finally, which is always a hassle, and you get to the, the gate, and you’re sitting there, and it all drops away. Everything falls away. You, you suddenly –

Sarah: Yeah!

Deanna: – you’re not responsible for taking the dog out; you’re not responsible for the laundry; you don’t have a million phone calls; you don’t have –

Sarah: Nope!

Deanna: – the, you know, you can put your, your phone on airplane mode, and no one can reach you!

Sarah: Yep!

Deanna: You know, it, there is nothing except the here and the now and the person you are, and maybe you’re talking to somebody that you know you are never going to see again –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – and you can, you can just be that part of yourself that is unfettered by the day-to-day. It’s a fresh start! Every time you set off on a different leg of your, of your travels, it’s a fresh start, and I love that. It’s just so clean and simple. And there’s this, this wonderful anticipation when, when you go to a new place that this is a new chapter that’s being written.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: You know, this is a page of your story that hasn’t been sketched, hasn’t been written. Nobody knows anything about this yet, including you, so it’s brand new, and I love that.

Sarah: That is one of my favorite parts too. The, also the sort of surrender of control? Like –

Deanna: Yes!

Sarah: – well?

Deanna: Yes!

Sarah: I, all I have to do is sit here.

Deanna: You do! And I, I mean, you know, you’re on the airplane, and people bring you food and drink, and, you know, you, there are so few decisions to make. Okay, I’m not allowed to get up now, because the captain said so. You know, I have to, I have to sit here with my seatbelt on like I’m on a kindergarten field trip. I, you know, there’s, there are just so many things that are taken out of your hands –

Sarah: Yeah!

Deanna: – that all you really have to do is just sit there and, you know, like, don’t assault people.

Sarah: And be patient. Yeah.

Deanna: And be patient!

Sarah: Yeah.

Deanna: Yeah, and that’s, that’s the thing is, eventually you’re going to get to where you’re going, and you just, you chill. You’re very much in the moment –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – and nobody expects anything! I mean, in fact, the quieter and less obtrusive you are, the more they like you.

Sarah: Yes!

Deanna: So it’s –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: – it’s just, you know, my goal is always to be the dream passenger who just sits there and is like, no, I’m good, thank you.

Sarah: Yep.

Deanna: Thank you! All is well. I’ve got my, I, I, I just invested in some noise-canceling headphones for when I travel, and I used them –

Sarah: Aren’t they –

Deanna: – on my last trip.

Sarah: – wonderful?

Deanna: Oh my God! I am evangelical about these things now, because it was a completely different travel experience. It, it, it gives you the bubble.

Sarah: Oh –

Deanna: Like, you’re, you’re in the bubble!

Sarah: I, I have a pair that I absolutely adore, and sometimes I wear them in the house when I need to isolate myself?

Deanna: Oh God, yes!

Sarah: And it’s like, ugh, this is, this is what I need. ‘Cause I didn’t realize until recently how much sounds that I’m not under control of, that I can’t control when I’m hearing really irritate me if they’re bothersome? And if I can just –

Deanna: Yep.

Sarah: – shut everything out in, in, in an aural sense and just isolate myself sound-wise – I would be very comfortable in one of those isolation booths where you can hear your own heartbeat –

Deanna: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and, like, the, the decibels are all covered with, you know, all the walls are covered with foam, and the decibels are really low, and it’s like, you can hear your own digestion. Sounds great!

Deanna: You should do one of those iso tanks –

Sarah: I would love to!

Deanna: – and float around in the dark in the water, and, yeah, we have one down the street from us, and I’m claustrophobic, so I won’t do it, but it sounds like it would be right up your alley.

Sarah: Totally!

Deanna: [Laughs]

Sarah: So with, with Veronica and Stoker, how did you get –

Deanna: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – from the end of A Dangerous Collaboration to the plot of A Murderous Relation? They, there’s not a lot of time that has passed. They still have this overarching –

Deanna: Oh –

Sarah: – sort of job that is something that they drop in and out of and a, and a, and a set of responsibilities that they do together, but how did you get from one to the next?

Deanna: Well, there, I mean, there is no time, because –

Sarah: Mm-mm.

Deanna: – for people who, who haven’t read A Dangerous Collaboration yet, it’s not a spoiler to say that they are, they are still in Cornwall at the, at, at the end of what happens in that book, and they –

Sarah: Yes.

Deanna: – Veronica gets a letter, a telegram saying, hey, come to London, and that’s the beginning of A Murderous Relation, so there is no time gap at all. Some books we have six months, and, and we assume that they’re actually doing the work that they’re supposed to be doing at that point, because they do have jobs.

Sarah: Right!

Deanna: But this book plunges them immediately into the reason that they’re pulled back to London. And we have a, there’s a recurring character, Lady Wellingtonia Beauclerk – Lady Wellie – and she usually is the one who, who kind of draws them, she’s the one who will, who will draw them into various and sundry little exploits, and she’s the catalyst for their involvement in A Murderous Relation. And, and part of it they undertake at, at her behest, and part of it they undertake because it’s a thing that they, they feel obligated to do.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: And, and they kind of get sucked into it immediately, and you know, I, I, I try to shake it up a little bit where it’s not one character always saying, hey, we have to go do the thing. Sometimes it’s Stoker; sometimes it’s Veronica; sometimes it’s forces outside them; so you never really know where they impetus for the plot’s going to come from –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – but this time it’s a, it’s a combination of Lady Wellie and Veronica. Stoker’s not terribly enthusiastic. [Laughs]

Sarah: No, he’s, he’s kind of done, and he’s like, can I just sit inside a taxidermied animal, eat candy, and get on with my business?

Deanna: Bless his heart. You know, I, I torture him a lot; I really do.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: Through Veronica, because Veronica’s usually always dragging him off. But, to be fair, the only reason he is in Cornwall during A Dangerous Collaboration is because he inserts himself into the situation. He was not invited.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: So, you know, that was, that was Veronica’s jam. She embarked on A Dangerous Collaboration with his brother Tiberius, and it is entirely Stoker’s fault that he ends up there and, and ends up a little bit the worse for wear by the end of the book, bless him. I love Stoker. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, he can’t complain too much. He, he has a lot to complain about, but he cannot complain too much –

Deanna: Yes.

Sarah: – about that one.

Deanna: You know, Veronica has a real skill for kind of cutting the moral high ground out from underneath him.

[Laughter]

Deanna: And so, you know, that’s, that’s a, a fundamental part of their dynamic, I think.

Sarah: [Laughs] So with this series –

Deanna: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – what do you, what do you love about writing Veronica and Stoker? Their, their dialogue is so much fun!

Deanna: It is a tremendous amount of fun to write, because I, I love that very spark-y dynamic, and I, I don’t think that I would know how to write a male/female partnership that has kind of those, those undertones of, you know, the romantic push me/pull you, I don’t know how I would write that without that sort of, of dynamic. Because Veronica even has that with Stoker, with Stoker’s brother Tiberius as well. There’s, there’s a little bit of that, you know, kind of, we’re going to banter and we’re going to flirt, and, and, you know, we all know it’s not going anywhere, but this is what we’re going to do. With Stoker, there’s, there’s the added element of, is it going to go somewhere?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: Because that’s always on the table. And, and, and that sort of, of – [sighs] – that sort of repartee is just, it’s really engaging to write, and it, it, it requires kind of a balance between humor and cleverness, because you can’t go too far with, with the, the humor or it gets slapstick-y. You can’t go too far with the cleverness or it can turn cruel. You, you’ve always got to have a, a, a kind of a third element of kindness and, and consideration for the other person in there, where we both know this is a, this is a banter-y game, and, and we’re never really going to, to in sincerity attack each other’s underbellies. You know, if, if Veronica and Stoker ever go at each other in a, in a way that’s, that’s kind of unkind and cutting to the quick, it, it’s, it’s not humorous. It’s not one of their banter-y scenes. It’s, that’s when, when that kind of gets stripped away and, and they become much more vulnerable. The banter is, is what they enjoy. At this point it’s, it’s a substitute for sex, but if they ever do become physical, then it would still be an element of their relationship, because it’s just fun for them. They enjoy that. My husband and I are, are getting ready to celebrate our thirtieth wedding anniversary this year, and –

Sarah: Congratulations! I’m celebrating –

Deanna: Thank you!

Sarah: – my twentieth. It’s a nice milestone, isn’t it?

Deanna: It is! It is! And we still have that banter with each other.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Deanna: We still have that back-and-forth, and, and that’s what keeps it fresh and interesting and engaging is, you know, even after all the – my husband and I have known each other since we were nineteen, and even after all this time, he’s still never entirely sure what’s going to come out of my mouth, and –

Sarah: You know, that is so funny! I met my husband at seventeen.

Deanna: [Laughs]

Sarah: I had no idea we had so much in common, but yeah, there’s moments where he’s like, oh, okay, that’s why I have that gray hair. Okay!

Deanna: Yeah! Well, and you know, the thing is too, when you, it, it’s such a crapshoot when you meet them when you’re really, really young, because –

Sarah: Yeah.

Deanna: – you, you have to, you basically have to gamble on the fact that you’re going to grow up in the same direction.

Sarah: Yes, that’s exactly it!

Deanna: And not everybody does. And not everybody does.

Sarah: Nope.

Deanna: And, you know, we were very fortunate that we did, because as we’ve gotten older, you know, I, I, I think one of the, the keys to a relationship that has that kind of longevity is you have to, you have to find the same things right and wrong. You know, you have to have the same kind of code.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Deanna: And you have to find the same things funny, to a certain extent. You have to be able to laugh at a lot of the same things. And it doesn’t really matter what they are. It, it’s just, if, if you can overlap a lot of your senses of humor, then that’s going to take you really, really far. And so for Veronica and Stoker, I think there’s a huge element of, we view the, the, we view the world standing in the same spot. You know, that perspective is the same.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: We can look at it, and we get each other, and Veronica makes this point, I, I think probably at least once in each book, that they, they are cut from the same cloth; you know, that, that if the rest of the world is mud, they’re quicksilver. They, they’re, they’re fast and they’re spark-y and they’re perceptive, and they get each other –

Sarah: Yes.

Deanna: – in a way that other characters don’t completely get them. Some come close, but nobody really gets them as well as they get each other. And so whatever other problems they have, whatever other issues come up – you know, oh, Stoker, your ex-wife is in the picture, and she’s kind of murder-y or, you know, hey, Veronica’s having problems with her birth family, who just happens to be royal – whatever else is going on, they have each other. They get each other, and there, there’s that, I don’t even have to think about whether I can rely on you, because you are the bedrock under my feet. And so the rest of it kind of just becomes a little inconsequential when compared with that. There’s not that much that’s going to be able to shake them.

Sarah: I love that they have that same sort of, like, that they are located on the same point on the, on the compass?

Deanna: Yes, exactly.

Sarah: And they are looking out at the world with a very common under-, underpinning of their experience. Like you said, they –

Deanna: Well, it’s –

Sarah: – they –

Deanna: Yes!

Sarah: – they get each other on a number of levels for experiences that they didn’t have anything to do with each other at that time.

Deanna: Exactly. They, they both went out to explore the world, and the funny thing is, my husband and I both have compass tattoos.

[Laughter]

Deanna: Which I just realized. It’s, yeah, Stoker and Veronica both started traveling the world very, very young. Stoker ran away the first time when he was like twelve years old and has been in and out of his family’s life since then. He’s the black sheep of an aristocratic family. Veronica has been on her own essentially since she was eighteen. They both traveled the world, they’ve both had tremendous experiences, and they both had that drive to get out there and experience things that were different from where they came from, from the very beginning. They both knew, hey, I’m, I’m the cuckoo in the nest. I’m not normal here. I’m not, I’m not like everybody else.

Sarah: Yeah. They recognize that same feeling in each other.

Deanna: Yeah! You know, there’s, there’s very much a –

Sarah: It’s like they vibrate on that frequency.

Deanna: Yeah! It’s a, it’s a kindred spirit thing, and, you know, every once in a, in a very, very blue moon, you meet someone, and I, I had this experience when, when I met my husband, when we were in college, that you just meet someone, and there’s that click where you say, oh, I know you.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Deanna: I just met you, but I know you.

Sarah: Yep!

Deanna: I know, I know who you are; I get you. And it’s not so much a meeting as it is a recognition.

Sarah: Yes.

Deanna: And it’s, yeah. And it can be a romantic relationship, it can be a friendship, and it’s, it’s lovely when it happens, and you know, who knows? Maybe these are people that we’ve known in past lives or, or some such, but there are, there are people that we get –

Sarah: Yeah!

Deanna: – from the minute, from the minute we meet them.

Sarah: Yes!

Deanna: And we’re like, yeah. Okay.

Sarah: I love that, that recognition of vibration. It is, it is so –

Deanna: Yeah.

Sarah: – it is so comforting! Like, ah! I’m not the only complete weirdo! Here’s another weirdo –

Deanna: [Laughs]

Sarah: – just like me!

Deanna: No! And that’s the interesting thing, is it’s usually people who are not the same as everybody else that you meet –

Sarah: Yeah.

Deanna: – and that’s why there’s that moment where you say, oh, I, I see you, and I know you see me.

Sarah: Yes! So do you have a destination for them in mind?

Deanna: No. Actually, I don’t, because I just got the contract signed a few months ago to do six and seven in the series.

Sarah: Ooh, congratulations!

Deanna: Thank you, darling! Six is already written. It has, it, it’s in my editor’s hands right now. We haven’t done the revisions on it yet, but it’s, it’s mostly done.

Sarah: Oooh!

Deanna: And seven I’m brainstorming. So hopefully there will be many more books after that. I, I tremendously enjoy writing them. I have great fun with them, and I could keep writing them. I mean, there’s so much scope for the places they could go, the things they could do that I, there’s, there’s just a lot of potential in the series, so I would love to keep writing it? It’s up to the fine folks at Penguin, so we will see what happens, but if they’re willing, I’m willing, so all fingers crossed. [Laughs]

Sarah: Can, can you, can you say anything about the next book?

Deanna: No.

Sarah: Damn it!

Deanna: [Laughs]

Sarah: Damn it! All right, fine! Fine. I’ll be, I’ll be –

Deanna: No, I can’t! I can’t, and I’ll tell you why I can’t, is because I literally at this moment don’t even remember – okay, yes, now I do. Okay, it just came back to me.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: No, here’s the weird thing, Sarah. Here’s the weird thing: I’m out here trying to, to, to talk to people about the book that’s just getting ready to release –

Sarah: Right, and you finished that –

Deanna: – and I wrote it –

Sarah: – like, last year, right?

Deanna: – like a year ago –

Sarah: Right?

Deanna: – and you’re asking me about things that I’m trying, I’m racking my brain, legitimately trying to remember, who’s in this book and what happened? And trying not to get it confused with the book I just wrote or the book that I’m thinking about writing the proposal for. It’s madness, Sarah! It’s madness!

Sarah: [Laughs] I could be –

Deanna: Yes, I do, I do –

Sarah: – a complete tool, too. I could be like –

Deanna: – I do remember – I know, you really could be – I do remember a little bit about book six. The impetus for book six is that it begins in the Curiosity Club –

Sarah: Ooh.

Deanna: – which is this club for adventurous women, explorers and, and, and women of, of intellectual substance that Veronica is –

Sarah: Oooh!

Deanna: – a member of, so I can tell you that much. [Laughs]

Sarah: I love the growing relationships that Veronica is finding with other women.

Deanna: Aren’t they fun?

Sarah: Ah! Well –

Deanna: I, I’m having the greatest time writing those, because I, I always deal, in my books, with the element of found family, because –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – I’m, I’m intrigued by the idea that – I, I’m a firm believer that blood is not thicker than water.

Sarah: Nope!

Deanna: I don’t think, I don’t think that just because, you know, of an accident of DNA you owe people something. I mean, if what, if they’re toxic or they’re horrible, just because you were born with the same ancestry you owe them something? That’s insane!

Sarah: Nope!

Deanna: I, I believe that, that people come into your life, and, and sometimes it’s through blood, and sometimes it’s through the, the, the magic of just your paths crossing, and you connect with them, and you make them family.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: And, and you owe each other respect and support, and, and you give that to each other, and you do it without strings and without toxicity, and I love the idea of, of taking these characters and letting them explore that. 

You know, Stoker has a birth family that kind of navigates its way in and out of each book with great success sometimes and much less success at other times, and, you know, Veronica is, is this outcast from her own birth family, so she has no one she’s related to that she has a relationship with, and so she is always amassing found family. She’s, you know, she’s got a kind of a big-brother-ish in Tiberius, and she’s, she’s got Lady Wellie, who, who is sort of a, a, an adopted aunt, and she’s got all these little nieces and nephews through the Earl of Rosemorran, who’s her, her employer, and so she, she has all of these found relationships, and now she’s building a sisterhood.

She’s getting these women who, like J. J. Butterworth, who is a reporter, or, you know, the Earl of Rosemorran’s sister, who’s the one who sponsored her into the Curiosity Club, where she’s meeting all kinds of women who are just like her. They, they know what it’s like to be intelligent and curious and adventuresome and to have all of society conspiring to try and clip those wings, and to be fighting against that. So she’s got all these kindred spirits around her, and, and, and that’s a, that’s a really interesting element of her life to explore.

Sarah: And it’s also such a challenge for her too, to figure out how to have a family, because she didn’t really have one!

Deanna: Yeah! I mean, she doesn’t bring to her relationships a skill set. She brings to her relationships intuition, and that’s really all she’s got, which is, you know, how can I support you? How can I love you? How can – you know, what, what is our dynamic going to be? Well, this is what I have to bring to it. I’m a person of action. You know, Veronica’s love language is action. She will do for you.

Sarah: Yes!

Deanna: And, and that is, you know, she’s, she is – [sighs] – she’s somewhat restless, and she’s courageous and energetic, and so she will always, you know, strap on her bustle and pick up her, her parasol and wade into battle for you at, at very little consideration to the personal cost. If she feels like you are her kin and you need her, she is there.

Sarah: Yeah.

Deanna: She is present, she’s physical, she’s coming in to take care of things, in a way that, that would be hugely overbearing if, if you’re not prepared for it, because she is very dynamic, and she is very forceful, and, you know, I, I think there are certain people who would only like her in very small doses, and, and that’s fine. She’s unapologetic about that.

Sarah: Yes. I, she’s just unapologetically herself. That’s one of my favorite type –

Deanna: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – of character to read about.

Deanna: Yeah. Yeah, and, and, you know, it, it makes her tremendous fun to read about and to write about, because I, that is who I am getting to be more and more and more, the older that I get –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Deanna: – because, you know, I’m turning fifty-two this year, and girl, my give-a-shitter done broke.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: I mean, it is so far gone.

Sarah: Yep!

Deanna: I, I just, I could not care less anymore about so many things that, that used to occupy a lot of my time and a lot of my, my mental energy, and now I’m, you know, screw it. I don’t care. And it just, it’s very freeing to say, these are the small number of things that I care about, and they are wonderful, and I will devote all of my energy and my thought to this, and the rest of it, it can just go hang.

Sarah: And it’s amazing, as I, as I recognize the number of things that I don’t give a shit about, that I have a lot of sympathy for people who are much younger than me who are still stuck in this pressure of, I have to conform what others, to whatever others expect of me; I have to –

Deanna: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – adhere to these expectations, and, you know, you can’t tell somebody, no, you, you really don’t. You just have to get to the point of, you know what, I don’t. I don’t want to –

Deanna: Yeah!

Sarah: – and I’m not gonna.

Deanna: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s very much an internal shift –

Sarah: Yeah.

Deanna: – and, you know, for me, it sounds kind of strange that it was, it was the catalyst for all this, but it was, it was me getting my first visible tattoo. I got it when I made the change to Penguin as my publisher, and it was the very first time I was going to be in their offices in New York, meeting with all of them, and the day before, I went to a, a tattoo studio and got my compass tattoo on the inside of my left forearm, and it stretches from my wrist almost to my elbow, so –

Sarah: Ooh!

Deanna: – it’s, it’s, it’s visible. It’s very visible. [Laughs] And I just, I started noticing all these other things falling away, because I put that out there and said, this is who I am.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: I stopped wearing four-inch heels; I stopped wearing, you know, structured, uncomfortable dresses because that was professional. I, I, you know, I started wearing black skinny jeans and lace-up boots and, you know, I mean, I started going more for being completely authentic –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – in a way that, that was much more comfortable and much more confident, and without even necessarily being aware of the fact that that’s what I was doing. And it’s funny to see, because I have a few booksellers who’ve known me from the very first when I, because my, my first book came out in 2007, so I’ve been published for about thirteen years now, and there are booksellers –

Sarah: Wow!

Deanna: I know! There are booksellers who’ve known me from my very first book tour, and one of them in particular cracks up every time I come in the store now, because, you know, the, the, the first time I went and did an appearance there, you know, the knees are knocking together, and, you know, I’m, I’m trying so hard to please, and, and just, it, it was all so nerve-racking, and now, you know, I, I go into places like that, and I’ll, I’ll come in just a hundred percent relaxed, just happy to talk to readers, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – I can do, you know, forty-five, sixty minutes on the fly without ever even knowing I was going to have to speak, and there’s just such a shift, but it’s even in the way I hold myself –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – and the way I carry myself in those situations, and the way I breathe and the tone of my voice and everything. It’s, it’s just, it’s really funny to see that transformation happen over those years and to see what getting comfortable in your own skin does for you.

Sarah: It really does. For me it was piercings. I now have four in one ear –

Deanna: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and three in the other, and I’m very happy!

Deanna: Girl!

Sarah: Well, I realized, wait a minute – you know, I was, when I was younger, I was never allowed to. No, you only have one piercing –

Deanna: Right, yeah.

Sarah: – you can’t have two, and then I was like, wait, hold on. Hold on, who’s telling me what to do now?

Deanna: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, literally nobody. I can do whatever the hell I want! [Laughs]

Deanna: Yes!

Sarah: So you have talked online a great deal about your travel strategies, and we talked about the characters traveling and the, the freedom and the sort of –

Deanna: Yeah.

Sarah: – isolation bubble of pause that comes with traveling, and I know you’re traveling a lot for this release. What are some of your travel strategies? A-, aside from, you know, the noise-canceling headphones and just relaxing and being patient and just taking it as it comes?

Deanna: Well, I, I actually, I sat down and counted up, and I will be on forty flights this year –

Sarah: Whoo!

Deanna: – that I know of.

Sarah: Wow.

Deanna: That’s, that’s not, I mean, I, I’m sure there are going to be a few trips roll up that I don’t know about yet, so just right at this moment I know I’m going to be on forty airplanes. And so you, you do kind of develop some strategies the more you travel. The one thing I did for myself last year that has made a huge difference is I invested in decent luggage, because, you know, for years I would, I would just go and buy something that, that – because you don’t like to, to spend money on things like that, because you’re like, oh God, I don’t use it that often. Well, it turns out I do use it often. And it makes a huge difference to have something that rolls smoothly and that looks nice and, you know, that functions really well, and it doesn’t function well unless you buy decent luggage –

Sarah: No.

Deanna: – and so I, I invested in, in decent luggage this year, and that’s made a huge difference. A lot of it, for me, is I check my suitcase every time, and you don’t ever have to participate in that wild rugby scrum for overhead space –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: – because it’s just getting worse and worse and worse, and every flight –

Sarah: Yes.

Deanna: – that I’ve been on in the last probably twenty flights, there’s no overhead space. They run out, people have to gate-check, and I will get off a plane, and there will, the last time I got off a plane there were, I would estimate conservatively, thirty-five people lined up who had gate-checked their bag. And –

Sarah: Right, which slows them down, yeah.

Deanna: Oh my God, yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah! I mean, because you – especially, there are certain airports that are getting tighter and more difficult to make connections, and so if you have to stop and wait for a bag, good lord, child, you are not going to make your connecting flight. So –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – I, I have figured out that sticking with one airline as much as I can helps a lot.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: And I, I, I feel completely vindicated about checking my bags, because Roxane Gay did this awesome Twitter storm about checking your bag and how it is, it is the way to grace. It is the way to peace –

Sarah: Yes.

Deanna: – and she is absolutely right. It takes so much of the stress off. Like, I will, I will take that twenty minutes to wait at the baggage carousel and regroup and, you know, do a, a mantra in my mind while I wait for that bag –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – because it’s so worth not having to deal with, with all of the hassle. Plus, it’s really, it’s very nice just to walk through the airport with just a tote bag. I mean, and not have to always worry about where’s my bag? How do I get it in a bathroom stall?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: You know, how do I avoid tripping the server in the restaurant with all of my crap? So it, it’s, it’s, yeah, it’s totally worth it.

Sarah: And if you have the airline credit card, most of the time –

Deanna: That’s exactly what I was going to say! Yes, I got an airline credit –

Sarah: – you don’t pay for the fee!

Deanna: Exactly. I got the airline credit card, and you don’t even have to book on that card most of the time –

Sarah: Nope!

Deanna: – to get the, the bag for free, as long as you’re, you’re traveling on that airline, so – and then, before every, every trip, I try to treat myself to either a new movie or a new album so that I’ve got new entertainment to look forward to.

Sarah: Ooh!

Deanna: So I’ll, I’ll, I’ll spend, you know, ten or fifteen – like, I just got Knives Out to –

Sarah: [Gasps]

Deanna: – to watch on book tour, so I’m very excited about that, ‘cause I saw it in the theater and loved it, but it’s one of those movies that I know I want to watch more than once.

Sarah: Well. It is research.

Deanna: It is absolutely research. You know, the, the, before the last book tour I bought the whole season of Killing Eve so I could watch that, so I, I always treat myself to something that’s new that I can, I can watch like that, and, and I, I treat myself, like, when I’m traveling is generally the only time that I tend to read either thriller or romance, because those are more escapist for me, because it’s not what I write –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – so that’s, that’s usually what I will take with me to read, so I get, I get a more, it, it feels more like I’m, I’m getting away –

Sarah: Yes.

Deanna: – because I’m, I’m doing something different than what I do at home. And then, you know, and then it’s really practical stuff like the noise-canceling headphones and the anti-bacterial wipes. I invest a little bit more in, in, a little more money and a little more effort in making sure that I’m as comfort-, as comfortable as possible when I travel. And it’s making a huge difference to my state of mind. I find it much, much less stressful.

Sarah: Oh yeah, absolutely. Now, it has been a while since I have seen you, but I knew in the past you have had an affinity for red lipstick, and I don’t know if that is –

Deanna: Oh, I still do. I still do.

Sarah: Okay, ‘cause I was going to say –

Deanna: [Laughs]

Sarah: – if part of becoming yourself is to wear purple, that is great too! But I am curious that you, you have identified the reds that look really good on you. Which are your favorites? These are the –

Deanna: So –

Sarah: – very important interview questions I’m asking here. These are the crucial, the crucial ones.

Deanna: The hard-hitting –

Sarah: Yeah!

Deanna: – the hard-hitting journalism.

Sarah: That’s right!

Deanna: So, see I am convinced that everyone can wear red lipstick. You just have to know which, which are your undertones.

Sarah: Yes!

Deanna: Do you need a blue red or do you need an orange red? ‘Cause if you put me in an orange red, I look like I have a kidney condition? If you put me in a blue red, it’s awesome. It doesn’t – you know, suddenly the jet lag is not as noticeable; it brightens up your whole face. People tend to focus on that instead of the fact that you’re about to pass out from the fatigue, so. It depends on the price point. I have found in a drugstore, L’Oreal blue reds are fantastic. I, I tend to use NARS as a, as a, a NARS pencil as a, a base liner, and then if you want to splash out on the lipstick itself, I’m a huge fan of Urban Decay’s F-Bomb.

Sarah: Ooh!

Deanna: It is a perfect blue red. Perfect. And it lasts really well, and they do a sheer version or a, a, a more opaque version. And then I recently got my very first tube of Yves Saint Laurent, and it is, it is a thing of glory. It is not quite as, as pigmented as Urban Decay, but the thing I love about it is that it smells like roses.

Sarah: Ooh!

Deanna: It is, it is just, it’s like a spa treatment every time I put it on. I love it. It makes me feel very elegant to wear it. So, so those are my faves.

Sarah: Isn’t it interesting how one little purchase can just make you feel like you’re being so incredibly indulgent and, and kind to yourself?

Deanna: That is why lipstick sales always spike in times of national crisis, especially war. Because when you don’t feel justified in taking a huge extravagance for yourself, like you don’t want to go spend a hundred and fifty dollars on a massage or, you know, a couple thousand on a vacation, you can go spend twenty bucks on a new lipstick and feel like a –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – completely different person.

Sarah: Oh, absolutely.

Deanna: And it really, it does, it does, it makes you feel reborn and, you know, just fresh and new, and it’s, it’s a, it’s, it’s a lovely thing to be able to do for yourself. And even if you’re not much of a lipstick person, you can still do, you know, most of these companies will do like a sheer version, or they’ll do a tinted balm, or just, you know, a little something to brighten up your face is, is, is never a bad idea. At least in my case.

Sarah: That’s brilliant! I didn’t know that about lipstick sales in times of war. That’s really interesting!

Deanna: Yeah, they, I think the first time they noticed it was during World War II.

Sarah: Makes sense!

Deanna: Yeah! And if you think about all the pictures that, that we ever see of women in World War II, they, they’re, they’re wearing their, their gorgeous red lipstick and, and yeah. You know, when everything’s rationed or everything’s on fire or, you know, you never know what’s going to happen from day to day, being able to, to literally put on a happy face – [laughs] – is, is not to be trifled with. It is a, it is an important thing.

Sarah: Absolutely. Now, you’ve also written online about doing the work of unlearning history, about the way that some writers are venerated without question and the way that privilege is, is, is like an invisible protection that allows things to never reach you or just bounce off you?

Deanna: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: What have you learned and unlearned lately?

Deanna: Well, there have been a lot of discussions, especially online lately, about the function of, of most especially race in, in how publishing comes about, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – there are so many ways that white writers benefit from the, the structures the way they are in place now that we don’t even realize. There are gates that are kept and doors that are locked and towers that are built to keep other people out, and, and this is, this is true whether you’re talking, you know, homophobia, transphobia, ableism. It, it is especially noticeable with race, and, and that is the one that I’m, I’m working really hard to kind of figure out how it has benefitted me and, and how I can pay attention to doing my part to help dismantle that as much as possible. And it, it, it is one of those things that you have to know going into it, this is lifelong work.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: You know, there, there’s no such thing as woke; there’s only waking. There’s no such thing as fixed; there’s fixing. You know, you, you have to be able to sit with a whole lot of discomfort –

Sarah: Yeah.

Deanna: – and a whole lot of guilt and a whole lot of, you know, just really wishing things were not the way that they were, but knowing wishing ain’t going to do shit. You’ve got to actually put the work in, and then it’s going and looking for those opportunities to dismantle as much of that as you possibly can while trying not to step on people in the process and trying to make sure that you’re not taking the place of those voices, but you’re elevating those voices –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – and you’re, you’re amplifying those voices. And, you know, I, I just finished reading Robin DiAngelo’s White Fragility, because to me that was a great place to start, because she outlines a lot of the, the defense mechanisms that we have as white people. What, what ways we will set off down the path to learn and to become aware and to make changes, but then we will very happily take a shortcut into tears or, well, you know, I can’t do anything right, or, well, there’s no way to win, and the key takeaway to that is, no, there’s no way to win. We’re not supposed to win. That’s not what this is about. There, all we can do is, is become aware and then figure out the next step. You know, there’s always a next step. Is, you know, is it saying, hey, I’ve been asked to do a panel discussion. Great! Okay, panel organizers: are there people of color on my panel?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: You know, is there, is there somebody who has written about a particular issue that touches upon people of color? Great! Is the writer white, or are they not?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: And if they’re not white, how can I amplify that voice? You know, how, how can I say, I don’t need to be a part of this conversation; I just need to make other people aware that this conversation is happening, and I need to listen as well. And that’s, and that’s, you know, I think one of the hardest things is when you like to think of yourself as a good person –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – and you like to think of yourself as a person who would never do harm to other people, to realize we do harm every single day. It’s not intentional, it’s not something that we set out to do, but it’s there and it’s happening, because it’s part of the systems that have been built around us. It’s part of the systems that we participate in. So unless we actively make the choice to take those systems apart and to create new systems, then we, we are part of the problem, we are benefitting from it, and so – and that’s, that’s horrible to contemplate, that we have benefitted all this time from all this stuff, but you know what? It’s not as horrible as being victimized by it, and that’s what other people are going through. So that’s the time to take ourselves out of the narrative and say, yeah, this isn’t about protecting the status quo. This isn’t about protecting what has given us benefits that other people have not gotten. It’s about saying, okay, now it’s time to level the playing field. What can I do to, to make things more equitable for other people? And, you know, so much of it just comes down to listening, and it just comes down to paying attention when other people are talking.

Sarah: I loved that book –

Deanna: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – because it breaks down some things and gives you a language with which to talk about them?

Deanna: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Can I give you a book recommendation that rocked my brain?

Deanna: God, yes, please!

Sarah: It’s called Me and White Supremacy by Layla Saad. It just came out. It started as an Instagram challenge and then became a free PDF workbook, and then it was picked up by Sourcebooks and released in a longer edition, and it hit the, the Times, the USA Today, and Amazon bestseller lists in its first week. And it’s –

Deanna: Awesome. I have made note of that.

Sarah: – so good. It’s, and it does a lot of that –

Deanna: Yeah, my –

Sarah: – same, okay, yes, address this discomfort, address this feeling of shame and embarrassment and anger and frustration, and here’s how you, here’s how you transform that into actually helping.

Deanna: Yeah, because, you know, it’s one thing to sit there and say, you know, God, this is horrible; this is embarrassing; I’m enraged; I’m – you know, okay, great. Now what are you going to do about it?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: You know, because the, the tears don’t help anybody; the, the guilt doesn’t help anybody; the recrimination doesn’t help anybody. It, it’s, it’s a matter of saying, yeah, this is a shitty system.

Sarah: Yep.

Deanna: And it’s time to take a sledgehammer to it.

Sarah: Yep.

Deanna: I specifically wanted to read White Fragility first, because I wanted to, to read – if, I, I knew if I read that book first that she was going to tackle the, the kneejerk reactions that white people have to discussions of race, and she was going to eliminate every possible avenue of escape. That she was going to say, okay, when you feel your gut seizing up and you want to cry about it, this is what that’s actually doing to people of color, and this is why you don’t do that.

Sarah: Yeah.

Deanna: When, you know, when you want to talk over people of color, this is what you’re doing, and don’t do that. And so she broke it all down, and so I wanted to do that. Now I want to, I, I, I’m setting off to read what people of color have to say about it, and it’s, it’s, you know, most often in, in the US it’s, it’s an issue between black and white. It’s also an issue of Hispanic and white; it’s an issue of, you know, we, we have Islamophobia on the rise in this country; we have anti-Semitism on the rise in this country.

Sarah: Yep.

Deanna: So there, there are so many different facets to it that, that there are to explore, and I also, I also don’t want to just create a reading list for myself and, and rush through it like it’s a punch list. I’m, I’m taking about a book a month so that I can read a chapter in the morning and sit with that through the day and, and take it on board and really think about it and figure out how I can do better.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: And use it not so much as a, as, as a reading exercise, but more as a workbook to say, okay, you know, really, how can I incorporate this? What can I do differently?

Sarah: What do you do to, to take care of yourself?

Deanna: I have gotten really, really kind of intolerant when I am reading or watching anything on TV about spending time with something that I’m not enjoying.

Sarah: Oh yes.

Deanna: I, I will, I bail so fast –

Sarah: Oh, me too!

Deanna: – on – I mean, it’s obscene how quickly I will drop a book or something on Netflix if I’m not enjoying it. It’s like, nope. My life is either way too short or way too long to spend it doing things that you don’t enjoy, and so if it’s – you know, and, and I’m not the audience for everything, so if something’s created and I’m not loving it, then I wasn’t the audience, and so I, I will pass it on by. And I’m, I’m feeling more and more comfortable with that choice to say, nope, not for me, and move on.

I do a, I do a lot of things to – I, I kind of never view everyth- – it’s difficult to put into words to people who maybe are, are not creative for a living. Everything, to me, is integrated. Everything finds its way into my work –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – so even when I think I’m reading for pleasure, I’m probably not. There’s probably going to be so-, so there’s always a part of me that’s very aware of what I’m taking on board –

Sarah: Right.

Deanna: – because it’s probably going to find its way into my work somehow. And I, I don’t know any creative people who can completely divorce work from life. Like, it, it all overlaps in this really, really messy Venn diagram, and so that’s why I try for everything to, to – I’m always looking for opportunities to make something more pleasurable –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Deanna: – and, you know, just, yeah, just more joy. All of it. You know, if I’m, if I’m going to pick up a pen at the store, it’s going to be purple or green instead of blue, ‘cause those are the colors ink I like. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s stupid little things like that, but it adds up to a life that has been kind of – ooh, I’m going to use that Instagram word: it’s been curated to be a life that makes me happy, even down to the smallest details.

Sarah: Mm-hmm! Absolutely! And you, it’s part of, I think becoming yourself and evolving as yourself is curating what it is that you like and not worrying about what anyone else thinks of that.

Deanna: Oh yeah, absolutely! I mean, and, and I really – oh God, the things that I hate most are those articles about, like, you know, what women over forty shouldn’t wear or –

Sarah: Oh –

Deanna: – you know, hey, hey millenials! Put away your My Little Ponies and your graphic novels, and it’s like, shut up and let people enjoy things! I mean, good Lord! Good Lord! I have, I have a, a, a coll-, I have a, a small but growing collection of Funko Pops that give me a ridiculous amount of joy, you know, and, and if you had told me when I was twenty-five that I would be buying small vinyl characters, I probably would have thought you were completely round the twist, but they make me smile every time I see them, so, you know, why not?

Sarah: Yeah! I mean, why not? You’re not hurting anyone!

Deanna: Exactly. And I’m helping the, the growing Funko Pop! industry. [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, I mean, these are, these are vital questions, right?

Deanna: Yes! I mean, I have, I have Wonder Woman and Antiope Funko Pops in my workout space, and I have Maleficent Funko Pops in my study. So I have, like, I have, I have themed areas now for my two, my two collections of Funko Pops.

Sarah: Well, I mean, that’s, that’s how it’s done, right?

[Laughter]

Sarah: So what are you reading that you want to tell people about?

Deanna: Okay. So I am about halfway through Alyssa Cole’s A Prince on Paper, and like I said earlier, thrillers or contemporary romance are complete escapism for me, ‘cause it’s not what I write, and I –

Sarah: Right.

Deanna: – generally only read that when I travel, but Alyssa Cole is one of those people I will make an exception for, because she is magic. There is a teddy bear in this book that I, I, I need her to do a licensing deal so people can buy this teddy bear.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Deanna: And then coming out in, in March is a book that I actually got to read as an ARC, and I blurbed it. It’s called The Woman in the Mirror by Rebecca James. It’s very Gothic-y –

Sarah: Ooh!

Deanna: – and it’s very atmospheric, and I really thoroughly enjoyed it, and it’s got some lovely twisty things which I thought were great fun.

And I just got my hands on an ARC of a book that comes out in the summer called Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia, and I cannot wait to dive into this one, because I have lamented for a long time the fact that nobody really seems to be publishing proper Gothic novels anymore?

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Deanna: And that so many of them, when they were written, were set in England, and there are so many more places that you could be setting these, and this one is in the interior of Mexico, but it’s like a proper Gothic in the 1950s, and I think the, the potential for this one is off the charts, so I’m very excited. I’m going to take it with me on book tour, so it’s going to be my, my treat read when I’m on tour –

Sarah: Ooh!

Deanna: – so, yeah. Yeah, I’m very excited about it. [Laughs]

Sarah: Ohhh, that sounds really good!

Deanna: I know. I know! I’m very happy.

Sarah: Well, thank you so much for, for taking the time to talk to me. I really appreciate it!

Deanna: Oh, it’s always a joy to talk to you, Sarah. It’s been way too long, so I was –

Sarah: It really has!

Deanna: – so excited to get to chat with you today.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. I absolutely loved talking with Deanna, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation as well. You can find her on her website at deannaraybourn.com, on Twitter and on Instagram @deannaraybourn, and I will have links to all of those places in the show notes, as usual.

And if you want to get in touch with me, you can reach me at [email protected], or you can call and leave a message at 1-201-371-3272 and tell me a bad joke, because bad humor is getting me through; I don’t know about you.

Thank you again to our Patreon community. Your support means so very, very much, and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate each and every pledge you’ve made. If you would like to join our Patreon group, it is patreon.com/SmartBitches. I am in the process of scheduling interviews for the upcoming months, and often I ask the Patreon community for questions and suggestions, so if you would like to be part of that group, have a look. Pledges start at a dollar, and I would be thrilled to have you.

I end with a bad joke, because that’s how I do things. And this joke is really bad, and I love it. Are you ready? Here we go:

How do you cut the ocean in half?

Give up? How do you cut the ocean in half?

With a sea saw!

[Laughs] It’s so dumb; I love it so much! Like I said, bad humor getting me through.

Wherever you are, I hope you are safe. Don’t touch your face, wash your hands, and keep those around you safe as well. I am sending all of you very good thoughts, and I will see you back here next week.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to listen to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[swirly music]