392. Earth is Garbage, Space is Horny: Sarah & Amanda Look at Space Romance

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Well, hello there, and welcome to episode number 392 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell. Welcome back. Happy Valentine’s Day! Today, Amanda and I are going to talk about everything from the bookstore she works at to trade-sized romance to her Reylo fanfic? Yes, I will have a link; do not worry. But our conversation this week is inspired by a question from Jasmine. Jasmine is part of our Patreon, and she wanted to ask us about sci-fi and space romances, and she needed some recommendations. Amanda’s way more fluent in this than I am, but we have recs and suggestions, theories about the required elements of space romance, and potential reasons why space is so appealing right now.

I also want to say thank you for the feedback and the responses that you sent me by email, on Twitter, in comments on the episodes regarding my “RWA: One Month Later” miniseries. Your comments really meant a lot, and I was incredibly flattered by your thanks and by your praise, so thank you for that! And thank you again to the guests who appeared on the shows and to the Patreon community, who helped make the transcript happen, and to garlicknitter, who did all the transcripts. [My pleasure! – gk]

Today’s podcast episode is sponsored by Best Women’s Erotica of the Year, Volume 5, edited by Rachel Kramer Bussel, published by Cleis Press. This anthology’s theme is “outrageous” and features twenty-one new sexy erotica and erotic romance stories by authors including Sierra Simone, CD Reiss, Sabrina Sol, Caridad Piñeiro, Balli Kaur Jaswal, Justine Elyot, Alexa J. Day, Jayne Renault, and more. You’ll be swept away by the sexiest business deal ever, break the rules in a future world where skin-on-skin contact is forbidden, and discover the art of getting off by phone sex. From mermaid sex to historical passion to the first Latina US President finding intimacy again after becoming a widow, this book has something for every reader, from happy endings to pure lust. Best Women’s Erotica of the Year, Volume 5, is available in print, e-book, and audiobook, and is on sale now wherever books are sold. You can find out more at bweoftheyear.com.

As you know, every episode of this podcast receives a transcript. This episode’s transcript is brought to you by our Patreon community. If you have supported the show with a monthly pledge, thank you! You are helping me make sure that every episode is transcribed and accessible to everyone. If you would look to join our Patreon, please have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges start at one dollar a month, and every pledge makes a deeply, deeply appreciated difference.

I have so many new members of our Patreon community, and I will be greeting you all in future episodes, but today, hello and welcome to Jasmine, Laura, and Christie! Thank you for becoming part of our community!

And I have a compliment!

For Liz M.: Someone you know is going through something hard right now, but they’re getting through it because you’ve got their back and you are the greatest kind of friend. Nice work!

If you would like a compliment of your very own, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches!

At the end of the episode, I will have a really bad joke, I will have a preview of what is coming up on Smart Bitches, and of course in the show notes I will have links to all of the books we talk about, all of the shows we mention, and links to very important things like Amanda’s bookstore and her fanfic, because I know some of you are going to be like, you better have that link. Of course I have that link! I know how this works.

But now, Amanda and I are going to talk about space romance. Thanks again to Jasmine for a great question. On with the podcast.

[music]

Sarah: So how’s the bookstore?

Amanda: The bookstore is good! So we did inventory yesterday. I really enjoy it. The list of things that I do not like is very small. Top of the list is the bookshelf ladder.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: You think it’s going to be fun because –

Sarah: Well, you got that video of Belle, like, flying across the bookstore hanging on to the ladder, right?

Amanda: It is a death trap. Like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – the minute you take one step off the ground, you are white-knuckling it. And then one time, one of my fellow booksellers, who’s also an author, Susan, was like, hold on; I need to move you. So I’m, like –

Sarah: Oh God!

Amanda: – just gripping it while she’s, like, sliding me on the ladder down the bookshelf.

Sarah: Oh God! [Laughs] No!

Amanda: You think it’s going to be magical, but it’s not! Like, your life flashes before your eyes. But that’s really, like, the only complaint! I enjoy it when people come in. It’s like, I’m looking for a book; I don’t remember much about it – [laughs] – but I, it looks like this, and it’s about this, and the author’s name might be this, and I’m like, I will figure this out if it is the last thing I do. This –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: One of my, like, greatest scavenger hunts I’ve had to do is this older lady, she’s probably in her eighties or nineties, and she came in with her daughter, and I asked if they could, if I could help them find anything, and the daughter sighs, and this lady was like, I’m looking for a book that is kind of like a big deal. It sold a lot when it was popular. Mother is the first word of the title, and either the author’s –

Sarah: Oh my.

Amanda: – first or last name is Van. And the daughter goes, I don’t think the name is Van, by the way. So I go, okay, we’re going to figure this out. It was Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut.

Sarah: Whoooa! So basically, a good portion of your job –

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: – is Help a Bitch Out.

Amanda: Is book wizardry, you know. [Laughs]

Sarah: You are quite suited for that –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – ‘cause you remember shit!

Amanda: It’s enjoyable! I like doing it. We have a very large school population, so once, like, three o’clock hits, we are inundated with, like, middle-schoolers.

Sarah: Oh yeah. [Laughs] I have some, I have one of those.

Amanda: They are –

Sarah: He lives in my house.

Amanda: – rambunctious.

Sarah: And he likes books.

Amanda: Yeah, so –

Sarah: Just a bit.

Amanda: – that’s the only time where I’m like, just, I need to caffeinate to within an inch of my life.

Sarah: [Laughs] Power through.

Amanda: Yeah, and maybe spike my coffee if I can – [laughs] – sneakily do it. But it’s been a lot of fun. The, a lot of the people I work with are fantastic. There are some that are iffy, but that’s, you get that with any job, and –

Sarah: That’s retail.

Amanda: Yeah! But there’s this woman named Gail who started the same time I did, and she’s in her late fifties, and we have a tradition now where if we work together and close on the same night, we will go out for drinks afterwards.

Sarah: Oh, nice! 

Amanda: Yeah. So Gail and I have a drink routine, and I think we went out Tuesday, and we were out from seven to midnight.

Sarah: Damn!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I mean, I know book people party – I’ve been to conferences – but nice!

Amanda: No, Gail turns up! And then I had to be back at the store for inventory at, like, 8 a.m. the next morning, so – [laughs]

Sarah: Woohoo! Party!

Amanda: Yeah! So it’s, I enjoy it a lot!

Sarah: I’m glad you like it!

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: ‘Cause retail’s hard!

Amanda: It is! You have to be nice to strangers who aren’t always nice to you.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Being in a service job – I, I learned so much when I worked at the front desk of a hotel. The only worse job in a hotel is housekeeping –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – because behind closed doors, people are truly disgusting.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: And I had to go through OSHA training with them, and that was traumatic. It was truly the most disgusting things I’ve ever learned. But the front desk is really hard, ‘cause you just have to stand there and often be the recipient of someone else’s rage about something that you had nothing to do with!

Amanda: Yeah! And, you know, you can’t really be like, sorry for whatever’s going on, but it’s not my fault. You just kind of –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – have to put a smile on and, you know, make it through the next ten minutes! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, that really is it. That, that really is it: you’ve got to smile and make it through the next ten, and then –

Amanda: And then that’s it! Yeah.

Sarah: – move on. Yeah, ‘cause eventually they’re going to leave –

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: – they don’t live there. So what is your favorite part of the store?

Amanda: Like, in terms of sections or, like, things I do? Ooh!

Sarah: Either!

Amanda: I love making displays in the store? I love a theme. I’ve never met a theme I didn’t like.

Sarah: You don’t say!

Amanda: [Laughs] And I love –

Sarah: I am aware of this!

[Laughter]

Amanda: And I love making the posters or, like, the flyers for the sections? So, like, yesterday we designed a display that was like Latinx authors you should be reading, so I got to design –

Sarah: Ooh!

Amanda: – I designed, like, the display for it and the flyer for it. We have a romance display for February that we’re going to put up. I just, like, enjoy doing it? It’s also like another little scavenger hunt; like, this is what the display is going to be about: you need to find twenty books that fit within the theme. I like that a lot.

Sarah: So everything you do is a form of curation.

Amanda: Oh yeah! So – [laughs] – I was, picked the short straw, and I had to give a book tour to a group of prep school boys. Well, like, I guess their teacher had done it last year –

Sarah: Awesome.

Amanda: – and they really enjoyed it, so now this year. So Senior boys who are – I keep calling them boys, but they’re probably not – young men – Seniors in high school; they go to a very expensive prep school that’s like fifty thousand dollars a year tuition –

Sarah: Whoa!

Amanda: – and they’re all, like, perfectly coiffed, khakis, blue blazers, ties, and I have to give them a tour of the store and explain how publishing works and yada-yada-yada. We get to the children’s section, which is upstairs; the entire second floor is –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – kids and YA and stuff like that, and I make a joke. So the cardboard displays that you see in bookstores that have books in them, they’re called dumps. Yeah, they’re called dumps.

Sarah: So, like, that little statue of, of Diary of a Wimpy Kid that’s stuffed with Diary of a Wimpy Kid –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – that’s made of cardboard, that’s called a dump?

Amanda: It’s called a dump.

Sarah: Who names these things? That’s incredible!

Amanda: [Laughs] And we frequently make jokes about it, ‘cause it’s a silly, stupid name, and you know, dumps. Like, poop jokes. So I made a poop joke, and no one laughed, and I was like, is this too low-brow for, for these children?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: And then one raised their hand, and they’re like, what does dump stand for? And, like –

Sarah: No!

Amanda: And I’m like, nothing. It is not an acronym. We don’t know why they’re called dumps. That’s just their name! Like – [laughs]

Sarah: Oh my stars.

Amanda: And they’re like, okay. And I’m like, are, do you guys not find this as funny as, like, we do in here? Like, what is wrong with you? So.

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Amanda: It was –

Sarah: I would laugh uproariously at a poop joke about bookstore dumps.

Amanda: [Laughs] I know! But no.

Sarah: No, that is not an invitation for anyone to ac-, take an actual dump in the bookstore.

Amanda: Please do not!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: But okay, speaking of dumps in the bookstore, we have a public bathroom, and I, as I mentioned, we have middle school children who come in, and I’m on break in the café, like, eating soup or whatever I was eating that day, and these little monsters come in to the café, and they’re like, where’s your, it was like, do you have a bathroom? And the barista on staff was like, yeah, we have one over there. And so they go, and the barista’s like, were you able to find the bathroom, and one of the boys in the group of like five was like, yeah, and I took a huge dump!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: And in my head – I was, like, eating – in my head I was like, kid, we talk about dumps all the time here? Like, you’re not special? Like –

[Laughter]

Amanda: – if you –

Sarah: I know you thought you were being really edgy, but –

Amanda: Yeah, no. If you realize how many times we other, utter the word “dump” in a day, you’d, like – we, we are immune to your dump jokes.

Sarah: So wait, if you have to take one out and put another one in its place, do you have to go take a dump?

Amanda: Yeah, take a dump out to the dumpster, I suppose. Maybe that’s why they’re called dumps. No one knows! So, if you work in publishing and you listen to this and you know the secret of the dumps, please let us know.

Sarah: [Laughs] That’s magical.

Amanda: Yeah. The, the more you know.

Sarah: So –

Amanda: About dumps. [Laughs]

Sarah: You’ve got to learn about dumps.

Amanda: I wish, like, it would turn into, you know, like, Helen Mirren, the more you know. Like, did you know – ? These displays are called dumps!

Sarah: Okay. You should do, like, a whole series on, on, on Instagram?

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Secrets! Secrets of the Bookstore! 

Amanda: This is a dump!

[Laughter]

Sarah: This is, this one’s red! But this one’s brown!

Amanda: And they’re all shoddily made. Like, a strong gust of wind will just send one of them toppling.

Sarah: Do publishers have to pay to place them in the store? Do they, is that part of, like, the co-op space that’s paid for?

Amanda: I’m not sure on the indie side? Maybe, I think so? But that might be the extent of our co-op advertising, so. For example, at a Barnes and Noble, you might see, like, books on the front table or the –

Sarah: And those spaces are paid for –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – right?

Amanda: The books on the endcap, those are all paid for. With us, the stuff that we choose to display or put face out on a shelf, that’s all, like, curated and organically done. We’re not paid to do that. You know, we’re not advertising to you, or, like, these books aren’t being paid to be, like, put in front of your eyeballs.

Sarah: Which is one of the differences between a large chain –

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: – and a smaller bookstore.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: And yours has quite the robust romance section now.

Amanda: Yes, it does! When I started it was a little endcap, and then I floated the idea, I was like, listen, I love sci-fi/fantasy, but I think it has too much space, ‘cause it looks a little sparse. Could we maybe move romance to, like, a bigger shelf and just kind of slide sci-fi/fantasy down? And we did!

Sarah: [Gasps] Heresy! Heresy!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: How dare?

Amanda: I know.

Sarah: How very dare you?!

Amanda: So now it has, like, a full bookcase, and I try to pick a romance I think almost every month for staff picks. Love Lettering will be my February staff pick, by Kate Clayborn, which Aarya loved. So yeah!

Sarah: You could do a whole display for that with, like, books on lettering, calligraphy, pens, paper. You could make a whole, like, paper and book porn display for that!

Amanda: Well, one of, one of our booksellers I think might start teaching a bullet journaling class?

Sarah: Oooh!

Amanda: Yeah. So I –

Sarah: That’s a hot topic.

Amanda: – I, I recommended Love Lettering to her. She’s not a romance reader, so I don’t know if she’ll read it, but, you know, I hope she does.

Sarah: You never know! Sometimes you can convince people.

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: I thought it was interesting when you were saying on Twitter that someone walked up to the register with a whole stack of trades, and you tried to sell them a mass market paperback romance, and then this person was like, I can’t be seen reading that.

Amanda: Yeah. So they were, they were at the shelf, and Audrey, who’s a bookseller and who I know through of one of my other book clubs, and she’s starting to read a lot of romance – she’s wonderful; she’s the best bookseller. She can hand sell you a book like no one’s business – and she called me over, ‘cause she was giving recommendations to this woman, and she’s like, Amanda’s our romance expert, so – and I had picked When a Scot Ties the Knot by Tessa Dare as a staff pick previously, and so she called me over, and she was like, Amanda picked this book. She’s like, I read more contemporary, but if you like historical stuff, Amanda can give you some recommendations. And I was like, When a Scot Ties the Knot is fantastic. I read it in one sitting; I was up till 2 a.m. And the woman had a stack of, like, Bringing Down the Duke and Jasmine Guillory and just all the new trades that had come out? And she saw the cover of When a Scot Ties the Knot, and she was like, oh, I can’t read that. And I asked her; I was like, well, why not? And she’s like, that cover!

Sarah: Wow.

Amanda: She’s like, it reminds me of those, like, old Harlequins. I was like, well, it’s very good! Like – [laughs] – I kind of like challenged her on it! I was like, well, why can’t you read it? I was like, it’s not a big deal! So she didn’t get it. She wound up –

Sarah: Wooow!

Amanda: – getting two other, two trades, and then I gave her some other recommendations; like, she mentioned she likes the Veronica Speedwell series, so I mentioned Sherry Thomas’s series. Some romance readers are upset about trade paperbacks being so prominent now, because there’s a higher price point, and a lot of people have strong feelings about illustrated covers. I don’t mind them! I, I think they’re cute. Do they always accurately represent the subject matter inside? No, but I think they’re cute. And I feel like this really shows why, like, mass market is more for the dedicated romance reader, because there is a lot of stigma tied to the cover treatments that we find on mass markets. You want more romance in bookstores so you feel welcome, but bookstores are still a business, so they have to stock things –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – that will sell, and for a lot of bookstores, mass markets just don’t sell!

Sarah: They’re also harder to find. I don’t see them –

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: – that many places anymore.

Amanda: And, you know, higher profit margins. So, like, you have to make some concessions on what gets stocked and how it gets displayed, but, like, you know, I, I can understand why it upsets some people, but that, the stigma is very much alive and well, but seven years ago –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – when I moved to Boston, I was so bummed out that we have a lovely community of independent bookstores, and not a single one had a romance section. Now all of them do. I think that shows a lot of progress and growth and optimism, but we also have to realize that, like, shelf space is important, and you want to put stuff on the shelves that sells, because if they don’t –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – we just return them, and for mass markets, we don’t return them, we strip them, which means we rip the covers off –

Sarah: Every, I know that happens, and every time someone talks about it, I have –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – a full cringe. Like, oh God!

Amanda: We rip the covers off and then throw the rest in the garbage, because it costs more to ship them back to the publisher.

Sarah: Maybe that’s what dumps are made of.

Amanda: [Laughs] Just recycled mass markets? But –

Sarah: Mass market paperbacks, yeah. Just press them all together.

Amanda: Yeah, but any, like, mass market, we just send the covers back. Which is kind of morbid when you think about it. Like, we – [laughs] – we just send, like, the faces of their dead books back to them.

Sarah: [Laughs] Oh God, the cringe!

Amanda: Yeah. And then, like, we get a credit for it, but I’m hopeful that once people get their feet wet and really enjoy reading these stories, that they’ll be more open and willing to try mass markets once they’ve exhausted all of their trade options. And a lot of trade authors have been previously published as mass markets, like Alisha Rai. You know, The Right Swipe is trade, but her previous series are mass markets. So it’s always –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – possibly like, oh, I really love her writing; what else can I read? And be like, well, here you go. Yeah.

Sarah: All right, so, are you ready for a great transition?

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: You ready?

Amanda: Yes!

Sarah: All right: speaking of space in bookstores –

Amanda: [Laughs] How long were you sitting on that one?

Sarah: Oh, like twenty-two seconds.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Speaking of space in bookstores –

Amanda: Oh God.

Sarah: – we’re going to – I’m so proud of that; you shut your face.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: You know you’re jealous you didn’t come up with that. You know you’re mad!

I had an email from Jasmine, who’s part of the podcast Patreon, and she wanted to request an episode on science fiction and speculative romance like the Matrix of Destiny series, because they’re more like epic space fantasies. She says she started the Cat Star Chronicles, but she can’t seem to get a solid list of that subgenre – maybe romantic space opera. Anyway, just a thought, and she loves the show. Thank you, Jasmine!

Now, I thought this was really interesting because space romance has never been my thing. Science fiction romance has not been my thing. I didn’t think I was a space romance reader either, and then I got the latest Innkeeper Chronicles –

Amanda: Ohhh!

Sarah: – by Ilona Andrews, which Past Sarah put it on hold at the library? I don’t know what Past Sarah was doing, ‘cause Past Sarah and Present Sarah are pretty sure that Future Sarah doesn’t read space, but I got an announcement that Sweep of the Blade was ready for me to download –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and I was like, all right, well, okay. I’ll try it. And you know, it’s space –

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: – and planets, and then there’s vampires? In space. I’m like, yeah, okay, planets, planets, space, spaceships. And then we got into the politics of all the space cultures, and I was like, I am in! But the thing that’s hooking me is not the space part; it’s the diplomacy and the way in which the heroine is fluent in different forms of diplomacy, which is a form of emotional caretaking, and the, the, it is often assigned to women to make people feel welcome in spaces? She’s very fluent in all of that because she had to navigate vampire cultures as a human, and so she’s very interculturally fluent in different ways of making it clear to someone that they are welcome in the space that she is in, which makes her very useful and very powerful. I am –

Amanda: Take it or leave it.

Sarah: – here for that part. The space part, I’m kind of like, okay, it, it’s there. Planets. Space. Stuff. But you! You, you like you some space.

Amanda: I love me some space! [Laughs]

Sarah: What is it about space that does it for you?

Amanda: Because I hate the world? I’m just kidding!

[Laughter]

Sarah: You just, we’ve got to leave this world behind, and you’re –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – you’re just like, yeah, fuck it, ‘nother planet; let’s go.

Amanda: Yep. It’s just like, you get tired – it’s like an old Tupperware that’s sitting in the fridge too long, and you’re like, you know what? There’s no saving this; just throw the whole Tupperware away. We’ll start anew with these leftovers and put it in a new Tupperware.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Space!

Amanda: Space!

Sarah: Like a brand new Tupperware.

Amanda: [Laughs] Both space, or, like, sci-fi and fantasy, I just love because I always like seeing what an author comes up with in a kind of world that is unfamiliar to me. And come on, spaceships? Spaceships are cool!

Sarah: If you say so.

Amanda: Well, talking about Star Wars, you and I, and I grew up, you know, heavily watching Star Wars. My brother had all these Star Wars trivia games, and my dad loved Star Wars, and Mom not so much, but the three of us, we just really liked – and my, I also grew up with my dad obsessed with Star Trek. He loves sci-fi; he loves Star Trek; he loves Battlestar Galactica; he loves Star Wars. He, like, has every Star Trek rendition known to man, so I grew up watching and having it on in the background, but we were talking about Star Wars, and there are a lot of space politics in –

Sarah: Yep!

Amanda: – Star Wars, but there’s also, like, romance tropes that we see.

Sarah: Oh yes.

Amanda: So, like, I think I mentioned, like Leia and Han, you have, like, the class differences. She’s a space princess; he’s a, a rakish smuggler. Like, you know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – that is ripe for romance writing. You know, the new, the new series, I know the romance is a polarizing concept in those three, three movies.

Sarah: You mean Reylo?

Amanda: Yes. I am a Reylo stan, and the third movie was garbage. J. J. Abrams is overrated and terrible, and I’m not a fan. [Laughs] But after seeing that movie, I returned to writing fanfiction for, like, the first time in fifteen years.

Sarah: Whoooa!

Amanda: So, that was an interesting experience.

Sarah: So are you rewriting the ending?

Amanda: I wouldn’t say rewriting the ending. It’s a continuation. Ben is still alive, and he has amnesia! And I’m also writing an Alternate Universe one where they’re grumpy neighbors, and Ben has inherited his dead father’s gross mutt of a dog named Chewie?

[Laughter]

Sarah: I am just imagining, I’m going to release this episode on Valentine’s Day, and I can just imagine people listening and going, oh my God, I want that right now! [Laughs]

Amanda: So the first chapter of the continuation is up on Archive of Our Own. Shout out to my friend Kay, who beta-read it for me and was, as I called her, a doula through this process.

Sarah: So the ending of the last Star Wars movie –

Amanda: Garbage.

Sarah: – with Reylo was so abhorrent to your –

Amanda: Garbage.

Sarah: [Laughs] You are now, you are now inspired to write the fanfic of how it should be with the proper application of the tropes.

Amanda: And I want everyone to know that writing gives me major anxiety, so, like, that’s how much I was offended by what J. J. Abrams did!

[Laughter]

Sarah: We were actually talking, we were talking about the tropes in space –

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: – ‘cause not only do you have the class differences and the diplomacy and the, and the coded language – which is something I love in romances; how characters speak on multiple levels. When they say one thing, it means ten things? That’s one of my favorite things, and secret communications.

Amanda: And I, well, I also love the possibility for, like, action? Like, I’m not a romantic suspense fan, but I love, like, really action-oriented sci-fi romances.

Sarah: What does the action do for you? I get confused!

Amanda: It, like, re-, I, I don’t, makes them more like high stakes, like space and stuff? Will they survive? Of course they’ll survive! It’s a romance! But, like, I don’t know, just really, like, amps up the pacing and, like, level of danger. For, romantic suspense doesn’t really appeal to me? Like – [laughs] – if they’re not in a spaceship, I don’t care!

Sarah: And the spaceship itself, I think, can be key, because that’s forced proximity, and if you go outside the spaceship without the right gear, you’re going to die. So you are stuck in that space!

Amanda: Everyone has, like, their roles on a spaceship. Or themes, if – [laughs] – I love a theme! So, like, everyone has their, like, positions, like this person’s the engineer, and this person’s the captain, and this person’s the, the medic on board! And I also wonder if these things appeal to my love of RPGs?

Sarah: Oh, I bet it does! ‘Cause that would –

Amanda: Because, like, every –

Sarah: – that makes sense! It fits!

Amanda: – everyone has a role. That happens a lot in sci-fi romance, where everyone has a career role that’s part of your party, you know? [Laughs] You know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – what I mean? So, and I love Mass Effect, which is, like, the space Dragon Age, essentially.

Sarah: I’ve never played this; should I play this?

Amanda: Yes! The first Mass Effect is a little clunky –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – and not as polished. It gets better, but I just remember, in the first Mass Effect you meet a space cat alien man who has an eye patch, and his name is Garrus, and everyone was so mad that Garrus wasn’t a romanceable character in the first Mass Effect that then he became a romanceable character in the sequel. [Laughs]

Sarah: Aww!

Amanda: Yeah. He is such a tender, purple space cat man.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: He is my favorite.

Sarah: Anyone who tunes out –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Anyone who tunes in just at that moment is going to be like, what?!

Amanda: He’s like a –

Sarah: And yet, anyone who knows Mass Effect is going to be like, yep, tender, purple space cat: can confirm.

Amanda: He’s, like, a scientist and, like, an intellectual and –

Sarah: You know, you, have you read Adriana Anders’ Whiteout?

Amanda: I haven’t! I’m staring right at it. It is on my desk.

Sarah: It might really work for you –

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: – because the Antarctic can work as a substitute for space. The outside is going to kill you, and everyone has a role.

Amanda: Okay! All right.

Sarah: And everyone in, and the heroine is the chef for all of the scientists at the base, and the hero has a scientific role, but also a secret past –

Amanda: Ohhh!

Sarah: – duh-duh-duh! And then, you know, shit starts going way wrong! But you have the forced proximity; the sort of spaceship, only it’s not in space, it’s on the ice in Antarctica. Then there’s, you know, an epic quest and danger and action. It might really, really work for you.

Amanda: We did a previous Rec League – ‘cause I was selfish and I was like, we need a Rec League – where it was –

Sarah: Dude!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I do this all the time! I really want to read this; can we do this on the Rec League? Sure!

Amanda: – where it was the kind of like romantic suspense, but it was like the main couple versus the environment, rather than, like, a larger – like, Survival Romances I think is what we called the Rec League.

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: I like that brand –

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: – of romantic suspense, because, like, nature will kill you!

Sarah: Oh, I love books set in places where if you’re dumb the place you are will kill you –

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: – like Australia.

Amanda: Yeah. So yeah, maybe I’ll –

Sarah: I’m joking, Australia. Don’t get mad –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – though there are parts of you that will kill humans very easily. And I know about the drop bears, so you know, you can’t fool me! [Laughs]

Amanda: I just, like, picture, like, a representative for Australia emailing you. It’s like, we won’t take this – [laughs] – we won’t tolerate –

Sarah: Crikey!

Amanda: We won’t tolerate you besmirching our name!

Sarah: The other thing about space is there’s also often a courtly element or a, or a royalty element, because with everyone having their roles, you have different sort of statuses, and then you have the class lines, but you also often have –

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: – codes of conduct and very courtly rules about how you interact with other people.

Amanda: And I get that this can be replicated in a contemporary romance. Like, for example, Alyssa Cole’s Reluctant Royals, you kind of have to deal with, like, courtly manners, culture differences –

Sarah: Etiquette, protocol.

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: Yeah, anything with protocol can be very interesting in a contemporary setting, but, as we have seen, both in that series and in real life, you can also be like, you know what? I’m out of here.

Amanda: And Earth is garbage! So, like – [laughs] – I’m just –

Sarah: Let’s leave.

Amanda: Like, I’m at the point, like, right now in my reading where, like, I don’t want to read anything that –

Sarah: On Earth?

Amanda: – on Earth.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I’m done with the whole fucking planet!

Amanda: I’m exhausted? Earth exhausts me –

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: – right now?

Sarah: [Laughs] The whole planet –

Amanda: The whole planet.

Sarah: – is making me tired.

Amanda: So it’s like, give me something that is unfamiliar to me, please, because I don’t want to think. And I, and I think this happens a lot with terrible news cycles. You know, you’ll be reading a, a romance or just a book, and you’re like, this is hitting a little too close to home right now. Close book.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: I’ll come back to this later.

Sarah: Yep. And you need a book that is set in an entirely constructed world that is utterly apart from the one that you’re living in.

Amanda: Yeah. ‘Cause I’m not like, oh, wait a minute, is the whole world on fire and we’re going to die in a gazill-, in, like, a hundred years due to climate change? Like, that’s not a thought I have in the back of my head when I’m reading about spaceships.

Sarah: So there have been more space romances lately.

Amanda: Yes, thank goodness!

Sarah: So what are some of the ones that you love the most-est?

Amanda: Whenever someone asks about, like, sci-fi romance, I have to, like, give a shout-out to my OG of space romance, Linnea Sinclair. There’s Games of Command, is so good, and then I think An Accidental Goddess, if I remember the setup correctly, a woman is stranded on a planet, and she becomes an accidental goddess. Like, they think that she was sent from the heavens? Her stuff feels very space-opera-like. The romances are all slow burn. Games of Command has, like, a duo of romances happening at the same time. One couple is enemies-to-lovers, and, like, another one I think is more like, another one, like, harbors a crush on, on the hero, and just so good.

Sarah: Did you read the, the books by Cathy Pegau?

Amanda: No!

Sarah: There’s a lesbian space romance, Deep Deception, and then there’s Rulebreaker and I think Caught in Amber is also set in space?

Amanda: So I remember Carrie reviewed those –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – and here’s my big thing about, like, working for the site. Because I read through the reviews and I have to schedule them for social media –

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Amanda: – if they’re on my to-read list and someone reviews it, it gets bumped way down.

Sarah: Oh yeah! That’s absolutely the case.

Amanda: ‘Cause I’m like, I already know what happens. I’ll read something that I haven’t read someone’s thoughts on.

Sarah: Now, sometimes reading the reviews makes me want to read the book immediately. That has also happened a few times.

Amanda: Really! I feel like that never happens for me.

Sarah: No. I’m definitely convinced by some of the reviews. Like, oh, oh, well, going to read that now!

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: Like, I was already planning to read Love Lettering, but reading how much Aarya loved it and knowing how – like, I think she read it and then read it again immediately, which for me is a very, very high bar? Knowing how much she loved it, I was like, oh! Well, okay! We’re going to read that one, obviously, and it was totally great.

It also, for me, takes the pressure off? Like, I don’t have to formulate a critical opinion of this, because a critical opinion on this book has already been filed. I don’t have to engage that part of my brain. I am really free to just enjoy it and utterly submerse myself in it. That can be very liberating.

Amanda: Interesting! Well, we have established that you and I sometimes are very different readers. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, oh, very much, very, very much.

Amanda: But no, like, I appreciated Aarya’s review and how thoughtful it was, but I wouldn’t say, like, that’s the catalyst to make me read it, ‘cause I also feel like Aarya and I are also two very different readers in terms of, like, what appeals to us in a story.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: Yeah, like, reading reviews doesn’t help me? I feel like often it hinders me. Like, I like knowing if something has, like, questionable material or, like, a shitty situation that would make me nope right out. The minute I read a review, it definitely weakens my desire to pick up the book, whether the review is positive or negative.

Sarah: Well, especially if what you want is a complete absorption –

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: – into another world. If you’ve already half read about it, then that, that utterly new everything is –

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: – that effect isn’t going to be there.

So what other space romances do you – did you ever read the really, really old space romances by Johanna Lindsey?

Amanda: No! Warrior’s Woman? No! I want to –

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: – just because they sound fucking bonkers.

Sarah: Oh, they are completely over the top. They are not only over the top, they are also off the chain.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: They are all of the things. It is – I actually, like, I should make you read it. Like, you are now commanded to read Warrior’s Woman and report on how off the chain it is.

Amanda: Well, like, in the vein of, like, bonkers space romances –

Sarah: ‘Cause there’s a lot of room for bonkers in space!

Amanda: I have to give a shout-out to Lauren Dane’s Federation Chronicles series, which – [laughs] –

Sarah: Ohhh yes!

Amanda: They’re, like, space erotica with, like, threesomes and, like, poly relationships. [Laughs]

Sarah: Space boi-oi-oi-oi-oing.

Amanda: Yeah, and I mean, they’re just something else, man! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah. And the thing is, you, you know exactly what you’re going to get once you’re in that world, and every book delivers that.

Amanda: Yes. But the newer ones, obviously, Polaris Rising and the sequel, Aurora Blazing, I’m so happy that those are in the world.

Nightchaser by Amanda – never know if it’s boo-shay or boo-shet [Bouchet] – her Nightchaser series, I think the second book is coming out this year? That is a series that follows, like, the same couple.

Robin Lovett’s Planet of Desire is another, like, cool, bonkers sci-fi romance, because the main – and I reviewed it – the main couple crash lands on a planet where the atmosphere is like a, an aphrodisiac?

Sarah: Boi-oi-oi-oing –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – in space!

Amanda: But, like, you know, I think that’s also –

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: – [laughs] – boi-oi-oing space books

[Laughter]

Amanda: But I, I think, like, sci-fi romance really opens it up to do just weird stuff like that, and you’re like, yeah, totally, that makes sense. We haven’t explored nearly enough of our galaxy or universe, so there totally could be a planet that makes you just want to bone everything and anything.

Sarah: Are you trying to say that Earth doesn’t make you horny?

Amanda: No. Earth makes me drier than a raisin.

[Laughter]

Amanda: I’m sorry for shitting on Earth so much in this podcast!

Sarah: Earth. It’s a dump.

Amanda: [Laughs] It’s a dump, and we –

[Laughter]

Amanda: – we, we had to read the, the Mercenary Instinct book for when we were doing the podcast book clubs, and I really enjoyed that, by Ruby Lionsdrake. I liked that one, and I wound up continuing with the series.

But yeah, I want more space romances!

Sarah: What is it about space romance for you? Is it always the, the quest, the battle, the forced proximity and class differences?

Amanda: I would say forced proximity is a huge draw, whether it’s –

Sarah: I hear that.

Amanda: – [laughs] – whether it’s on, like, a spaceship or they’re stranded on a planet or just something, but there’s also, I feel like in a lot of sci-fi romances, there’s also a lot of fish-out-of-water elements, whether it’s a character going to a planet that they know nothing about or meeting someone from a, a world they know nothing about, there’s this kind of – instability? Is that a, is that a word? Instability? – [laughs] – that a character experiences, whether it is physical, because the planet is trying to kill you, or more emotional, because you’re stranded on a sex planet with a golden snake man that has a forked tongue, so, like –

Sarah: Okay! Are you going to read, are you going to read the new Ann Aguirre? I know it was reviewed, so that it plummets down your list, but it sounds like this is your jam.

Amanda: What is that? Oh! Oh!

Sarah: Girl, he has mandibles.

Amanda: I don’t know! I –

Sarah: Oh, I think you should read it. I think it would be your jam.

Amanda: Okay. It did plummet down my list, though.

Sarah: Of course, ‘cause it was reviewed! I totally get it, but this also means –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – that you can skip any obligation to review it ‘cause it’s been done!

Amanda: I suppose, but I’m just sitting here staring at my fort of books that I have –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – to read.

Sarah: I understand. Strange Love might really work for you, especially because the, the hero, he who hath mandibles kidnaps the heroine from Earth and then can’t get her back, so Earth is, like, out. She can’t go back.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: And her dog, and the, the dog ends up getting the ability to talk.

Amanda: I mean, I do enjoy a great dog.

Sarah: Right? Yep? So what else are some of the romances that you have found that have really hit the spot?

Amanda: So I’m, like, looking at my list, and it’s not as extensive as I thought it was?

Sarah: It can be a tricky genre, because if you find science fiction/ fantasy set in space, often it’s got a hefty dose of, dose of misogyny, or there isn’t a satisfying romance.

Amanda: And I’m – this is also another thing where, like, I’m jealous of YA, ‘cause YA has a lot more offerings when it comes to science fiction with romance or, like, romantic elements, but you know, sometimes I’m a horny reader and I just don’t, I want more than just light kissing from my protagonists. [Laughs]

Sarah: You want an aphrodisiac atmosphere –

Amanda: I do!

Sarah: – with a hot, golden –

 Amanda: Snake man!

[Laughter]

Amanda: So –

Sarah:  I understand!

Amanda: So, like, YA has the cool concepts, but it – [laughs] – it’s not horny enough for me!

[Laughter]

Sarah: So it’s not just the quest and the space and the forced proximity, the courtly differences and all of the things; it’s also horniness.

Amanda: I need space banging! Like, I am not, I’m not a reader who enjoys, like, closed door romances. I need all the bits and bobs on the page, please. All the bells and whistles.

Sarah: Bells and whistles, got it, yes.

Amanda: The, the Ts and the Ps and the Vs, just – but I want to know! And I want –

Sarah: [Laughs] Space banging!

Amanda: And I want paragraphs of, you know, descriptive paragraphs of, of all the things! Or whether they even have things! You know, so, like, that’s my main complaint with, like YA is like, I know some YA does have some light sexual content.

Sarah: But you want horny space.

Amanda: I need horny, horny space!

Sarah: Earth is not turning you on, but space sounds great.

Amanda: Yeah! Earth is garbage; space is horny.

Sarah: [Laughs] This idea that on, on actual Valentine’s Day –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – you’re going to, like, cover your room with aluminum foil, and Eric’s going to walk in and be like, what is happening? And you’re going to be like, we’re no longer –

Amanda: Are you ready to get horny in space?

Sarah: – we’re no longer on Earth, dear.

Amanda: He’d be into it. He’s supportive.

Sarah: [Laughs] What’s the swing for? Zero gravity.

Amanda: [Laughs] You have to wear this astronaut helmet, though. The helmet is a must!

Sarah: Yeah, okay. No Baby Yoda; just Mandalorian.

Amanda: [Laughs] And space boots. So, like, you know how sometimes, like, men leave their socks on? It’s like, leave the space boots on, please!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Oh my gosh! So what are you reading at the moment? Are you deep in space? Ba-dump-shh!

Amanda: I am, I am not, it is not Deep Space Nine Inches here.

Sarah: Aw, too bad!

[Laughter]

Amanda: But it is fantasy adjacent, so I’m reading A Heart of Blood and Ashes by Milla Vane. Or Mee-ya? I’m not sure how to do the double Ls in this case –

Sarah: I’m pretty sure –

Amanda: – and I’m so sorry if I mispronounce it, but it’s Meljean Brook!

Sarah: I know!

Amanda: Which, her previous series, was it the Iron Seas or – The Iron Duke was the first one.

Sarah: Yeah, Iron Seas, yeah.

Amanda: But I have such a soft spot for that series. She’s one of those authors that I will read anything they write. The cover has, like, a dirty, ripped Viking man on it, so that’s what I’m reading right now.

And then I’m also reading Kiss of Steel for, by Bec McMaster, for book club on Sunday.

So neither are contemporaries! [Laughs]

Sarah: By coincidence, as I mentioned, Sweep of the Blade, which is space, not planned for this podcast, but I am really into it! Space vampires, with diplomacy!

Amanda: I feel like Ilona Andrews, they are one of those writers that, like, they can do anything.

Sarah: There is a particular style to their heroes? They have a very particular style of their alpha heroes. They are almost always the biggest, baddest motherfuckers in the room.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: They have the most power, they are fearsome, and then they are brought to their knees by these incredibly interesting women.

Amanda: Yes. Which I love.

Sarah: I, I am okay with this.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: I can’t, I can’t mainline them, I can’t read one after the other, but I do, I am really surprised by how much I’m enjoying diplomatic space vampires.

Amanda: Just, like, a light sprinkling. No mainlining, just, like, a –

Sarah: Yeah. Little bit of space.

Amanda: – [laughs] – just a, a sprinkling of space, please.

Sarah: Yeah, we bit o’space.

Amanda: Just, just tell me when on the space. Just remember, someone has, like, a giant pepper grinder, and it’s just like stars falling in, onto your book, and you’re like, when! Please!

Sarah: Little bit of space. Not a whole, like, pile of cheese. I don’t want, like, the half pound of Parmesan space in my books.

Amanda: Meanwhile, I’m just like –

Sarah: Just a little –

Amanda: – nothing but Parmesan, space Parmesan in my bowl, please. Just a – [laughs]

Sarah: If space, if space is cheese – this is the strangest metaphor – if space is cheese, your books are like those things where they aim a blowtorch at a giant block of cheese, melt it, scrape it up together, mix it with some things, and then melt some more cheese, so they’re making the dish in the cheese, out of the cheese?

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: That is the amount of space – if space is cheese, that is the amount of space –

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: – you want in your books.

Amanda: That is exactly it.

Sarah: Sounds good!

Amanda: This, this episode was a wild ride! [Laughs]

Sarah: It really was. I enjoyed it very much.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. If you would like to find Amanda, she is at Smart Bitches, and she’s on Twitter @_ImAnAdult, and the bookstore she works at is Belmont Books, so if you are in the Boston area, you could go check out her bookstore! And yes, I will have a link in the show notes to her fanfic, because I know many of you are probably very curious about this.

Today’s podcast episode was brought to you by Best Women’s Erotica of the Year, Volume 5, edited by Rachel Kramer Bussel, published by Cleis Press. This anthology’s theme is “outrageous” and features twenty-one new sexy erotica and erotic romance stories by authors including Sierra Simone, CD Reiss, Sabrina Sol, Caridad Piñeiro, Balli Kaur Jaswal, Justine Elyot, Alexa J. Day, Jayne Renault, and more. You’ll be swept away by the sexiest business deal ever, break the rules in a future world where skin-on-skin contact is forbidden, and discover the art of getting off by phone sex. From mermaid sex to historical passion to the first Latina US President finding intimacy again after becoming a widow, this book has something for every reader, from happy endings to pure lust. Best Women’s Erotica of the Year, Volume 5, is available in print, e-book, and audiobook, and is on sale now wherever books are sold. Find out more at bweoftheyear.com.

Thank you again to our Patreon community for helping make sure that every episode has a transcript, and thank you, garlicknitter, for the transcript each week. If you would like to join the Patreon, you can have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

Coming up on the site this week, on Smart Bitches, Trashy Books – you did know there’s a website that goes with the podcast – we are going to be doing Hide Your Wallet, Part 2, which is our midmonth roundup of what we’re looking forward to reading that’s new this month in February. We’re also going to be talking about what we’ve seen people talk about in terms of new books, book deals, book releases, book announcement, cover reveals, all of the new stuff. Plus this week we have Caption That Cover, new reviews of new books, and, of course, a Bachelor recap from Elyse. We’ll always have Books on Sale on every day, except Friday and Saturday, and Help a Bitch Out on Tuesday. I hope you’ll come over and hang out with us.

I will have links to everything we talked about, all of the books, all of the shows, all of the fanfic, never fear.

And of course each week I end with a bad joke. You ready? This one’s really poor. All right.

What do clouds wear under their shorts?

Give up? What do clouds wear under their shorts?

Thunderpants.

[Laughs] So dumb! I love it so much! That is from Reddit user justaboi. Thunderpants! [Laughs more] I hope you enjoyed that one as much as I did.

On behalf of Amanda and myself, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend. We’ll see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcasting Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[atmospheric music]