371. Amanda and AJ Have Major Book Hangover from Gideon the Ninth

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 371 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and I’m trying a new recording setup for this episode, so if you think this intro and outro sound really good or if you’re thinking, oh, this sounds terrible! do let me know, ‘cause I’m trying new things over here.

I’m also chatting today with Amanda and AJ. AJ is one of our new reviewers, and AJ and Amanda are both obsessed with Gideon the Ninth. They have severe book hangover, I think there might be Halloween costumes in the making, and they are dying to talk to someone about it, so I connected them and recorded their conversation as they tried to answer a lot of questions. What genre is this book? Who are their favorite characters? Why did it give them both some epic levels of book hangover? If you’re not familiar with Gideon the Ninth, it came out on September 10th, it hit the New York Times, and the tagline was “Lesbian Necromancers in Space.” Folks who read it seem to be obsessed, but if you’re not familiar, here’s the cover copy, so you have a sense of the book:

“The Emperor needs necromancers.

“The Ninth Necromancer needs a swordswoman.

“Gideon has a sword, some dirty magazines, and no more time for undead nonsense.”

Sounds good, right?

“Brought up by unfriendly, ossifying nuns, ancient retainers, and countless skeletons, Gideon is ready to abandon a life of servitude and an afterlife as a reanimated corpse. She packs up her sword, her shoes, and her dirty magazines, and prepares to launch her daring escape. But her childhood nemesis won’t set her free without a service.

“Harrowhark Nonagesimus, Reverend Daughter of the Ninth House and bone witch extraordinaire, has been summoned into action. The Emperor has invited the heirs to each of his loyal Houses to a deadly trial of wits and skill. If Harrowhark succeeds she will be become an immortal, all-powerful servant of the Resurrection, but no necromancer can ascend without their cavalier. Without Gideon’s sword, Harrow will fail, and the Ninth House will die.”

So we’re going to spoil the heck out of this book. We’re also going to spoil Feed, we’re going to spoil Harry Potter, and in a moment of great scandal, we’re also going to talk about where we bailed on the Potter series, so if that’s going to really tick you off, you might want to skip this one.

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Coming up at the end of the podcast, I will have a preview of what’s coming up on Smart Bitches this week; I’ll have information about the music you’re listening to; I’ll have an absolutely dreadful joke, because you know how much I love them. I also will have in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast all of the links that we talk about this in episode, and there are many. If you, like Amanda and AJ, want to take a deep dive into the world of Gideon the Ninth, the links will definitely help you out. And of course we will link to all of the books that we discuss in this episode, and of course there are many.

So let’s get on with it, shall we? AJ and Amanda are going to tell you all about the wonderful things inside Tamsyn Muir’s Gideon the Ninth and why it gave them epic book hangover.

[music]

Sarah: Welcome, AJ! I’m so excited you’re here!

AJ: I’m so excited to be here!

Sarah: Would you please introduce yourself, because this is your first appearance on our podcast since you joined our reviewing crew, and I’m really excited to have you! So would you introduce yourself to the folks who will be listening?

AJ: Absolutely! So I am AJ. I’m one of the, the newer people on the reviewing crew, which I guess you just said. I am a lifelong reader, obviously; that’s why I’m here. [Laughs] I’m also a lifelong nerd, so before I was interested in romance I was interested in sci-fi and fantasy; I’ve been reading that since I was itty-bitty. And the things about me that are relevant for this book: I grew up in a very small town, and they’re about ten years behind the rest of the country technologically, so we didn’t have a lot of internet until I was in high school, so while the other nerdy kids were coding their first website, I studied the blade.

[Laughter]

AJ: This is absolutely true.

Sarah: You studied –

AJ: I was –

Sarah: – the blade.

AJ: Yes. I was a fencing instructor; that was my first job. So I was a queer Goth kid in a small town who was obsessed with swords, and that’s – and I’m now a queer Goth adult in a larger town who still really likes swords –

Amanda: [Laughs]

AJ: – so this book was kind of pretty much it for me. [Laughs]

Sarah: This was all your catnip!

AJ: Oh my gosh, I can’t even tell you. Squee, man, squee!

Amanda: [Laughs] Well, I’m going to forgo an intro –

Sarah: Who are you? What are you doing here?

Amanda: – because I’m lazy. [Laughs]

Sarah: What, who, what, why? Huh?

[Laughter]

Amanda: The reason why I liked this book is because I was also a Goth kid, and I am a, a lovely bisexual lady. I just enjoyed this a lot, and I, I like books that have more, like, darker magic, so if you’ve got blood magic in it, I’m all about it. You’ve got necromancy in it, I’m all about it. So, and hearing the phrase, like, lesbian necromancers in space, that’s, that’s kind of cool! Like – [laughs] – you don’t really need any more, any more description than that!

Sarah: I remember, I remember when you told me about this –

AJ: Yeah, I was sold –

Sarah: – I was like, I didn’t know I needed those words in that order.

AJ: Yeah! I was just going to say, I was sold: I saw the cover and it said, Lesbian necromancers in space, and I was like, welp, buying this one!

Amanda: [Laughs]

AJ: I got one of the ones that has the, like, black on the edges of the pages?

Amanda: Yes!

AJ: Got the hardcover, oh! It matches my décor so beautifully!

Amanda: I was so excited when they announced, like, the first printing was going to have black-stained edges, and I remember tweeting at the Tor account, and I was like, okay, so how do I get this? What special things do I need to do? They were like, all you have to do is just, like, preorder it at your – [laughs] – local store. That’s literally all you have to do. First printing will have all of it, and I was like, mm-okay. I will do that.

AJ: I lucked out, and a local store had one copy left with the black edges.

Amanda: Oh my gosh!

Sarah: I hope that book sells.

Amanda: I brought it, I brought it home, and – it’s on the bestseller list!

Sarah: Yes!

Amanda: [Laughs] It’s on the bestseller list. We changed our display yesterday, and it was sitting on there. But I brought it home, and my roommate was like, well, I’m going to have to get this now, so –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – next time you’re at the store, can you just grab me a copy and I’ll Venmo you the money? I was like, okay.

AJ: Yeah, my roommate stole my copy today and took it to work with her, so I was like, hey, can you bring me Gideon the Ninth so I can look stuff up for the podcast? And she’s like, oh, sorry. You can’t have it back.

[Laughter]

Amanda: What a coincidence, because I also let my roommate borrow my galley copy of Leigh Bardugo’s Ninth House that I had to move heaven and earth to get, and she lent it to someone at work, and I was like, hey, can you get that back for me, because I need to review it, and the person has misplaced it.

Sarah: [Gasps!] That is grounds for serious murder.

Amanda: I’m so mad. I’m so mad, but my roommate got a hookup from someone else at work who has a copy, so now I’m borrowing someone else’s copy, but I’m so mad. So mad.

AJ: Yeah, that’s grounds for losing lending privileges –

Amanda: Yeah.

AJ: – in my house. We, we take our books very seriously around here. My roommate is an English teacher, so we have an entire room of our house that is just bookshelves with her books and my books?

Amanda: Wow! Hard same! [Laughs]

AJ: Yes!

Amanda: But our dining room is all of my roommate’s books, and the living room is all of my books, and we catalog our books through LibraryThing, so you can, like, scan the, the barcode, and it automatically, like, puts it into the app, and I think between us we have surpassed twelve hundred books –

Sarah: Whoa.

Amanda: – in this apartment. Yeah! We have a problem! [Laughs]

AJ: It’s only a problem if it’s a problem for you! Otherwise –

Amanda: It’s a problem, it’s a problem because we are running out of available space to put shelves.

AJ: Yeah. Yeah, okay, that – we did just have this conversation last night where my roommate was like, bookshelves are thirty percent off at Target! And I was like, where are you going to put more bookshelves? We’re out of walls!

Amanda: My roommate just took advantage of that sale and had – [laughs] – had a new shelf delivered on Monday. So we are, we are slowly losing space. I told her she’s more than welcome to cover up the dining room windows, because we don’t use them or open them, so who needs natural light?

AJ: I’m saying, we’re, you know, Goths. We don’t need light.

Amanda: No!

AJ: We thrive in the dark!

Amanda: Okay, so should we tackle trying to describe this book, aside from just lesbian necromancers in space, in case anyone needs more of a nudge?

Sarah: So where were the lesbian necromancers?

Amanda: In space.

Sarah: Okay, just, just making sure that’s where they were. In –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Houses in space.

Amanda: Got it.

AJ: Yes. I think the Houses are, like, planetary systems or planets? I wasn’t really clear on what constitutes a House.

Amanda: They all have their, like, different things. Like, they’re all in charge of different, I wouldn’t call it, like, sectors, but the Ninth House is, like, in charge of, like, death. There’s a, a poem at the beginning that kind of succinctly describes, like, what each House represents?

Sarah: So if, if one group of planets or, or a realm or an area is in charge of a specific thing, does that mean they govern that for the other Houses as well?

Amanda: I’m looking. I’m looking at my, at my, at my copy right now. So –

AJ: I feel like, yeah, some of that stuff wasn’t super clear as to how this society actually works with that?

Amanda: Yeah, but it’s like, so for the Second House is called the Emperor’s Strength, House of the Crimson Shield, the Centurion’s House, and their symbol is, like, a skull with, like, a face plate over it.

AJ: Right, and they were basically the army; I remember this now.

Amanda: Yes.

AJ: Yeah.

Amanda: But, so this is the, I have the poem right here! So there are nine Houses. The first House is, like, the Emperor’s House, who is, like, the ruler of all the Houses. And then the poem is:

Two is for discipline, heedless of trial

Three for gleam of a jewel or a smile

Four for fidelity, facing ahead

Five for tradition and debts to the dead

Six for the truth over solace and lies

Seven for beauty that blossoms and dies

Eight for salvation, no matter the cost

Nine for the tomb and for all that was lost

Sarah: So I’m curious: can you describe how they interact with each other? Like, are they all at war? Do they hate each other? Are they like cupcakes and they’re all at war?

Amanda: They’re not – [laughs] – all at war. So the –

Sarah: Why are cupcakes at war? Can you tell me that?

Amanda: I don’t know!

[Laughter]

Amanda: One cupcake shall reign supreme!

Sarah: [Laughs]

AJ: Are we talking actual cupcakes here? Is there a cupcake war I need to know about?

Amanda: Well, there’s Cupcake Wars on the Food network. [Laughs]

AJ: Ohhh! Okay. I was like, wow! I didn’t realize cupcakes were so hardcore! Man!

Amanda: But! So, like, the conceit of the book is that all of the Houses are called to engage in this, like, giant, like, trial? So it’s like the heads of Houses – please correct me if I’m wrong, AJ – but it’s like the heads of Houses and their – what is called? – their cavalier, kind of like their bodyguard or something like that, are called to this trial, and it’s kind of never happened before? And they kind of have to, like, battle it out in a sense?

Sarah: So they’re –

Amanda: But before this, they were never at war –

AJ: Yeah, so there –

Amanda: – they just kind of, they all have their roles to play in kind of like the, the governing of their space kingdom.

AJ: Right, there’s, like, rivalry, like court rivalry, you know, the tension between them, but it’s not like they’re fighting each other?

Sarah: Right.

Amanda: ‘Cause they all have their lanes; you know what I mean? They stay in their lane. They handle, like, you know, money or the dead or protection or the military, so but of course there’s, like, competition and scandal and all sorts of stuff.

AJ: Yeah, and the, the competition that they’re called to, like, the Emperor has these lieutenants, basically, that are also very powerful and, and undying and whatever, and so he, he needs more. He’s calling them up to try and become worthy to be one of his Lyctors, which are the – I think I’m pronouncing that right – they’re the lieutenants.

Amanda: I think so?

AJ: That’s, that’s how I pronounced –

Amanda: I would kill for a glossary of some sort and a pronunciation guide.

[Laughter]

AJ: That would be nice. They had at the – I don’t know if this is in the copy that you read – they had, like, a dramatis personae at the beginning, so they at least had, like, who everybody was and what House they came up in?

Amanda: Yes.

AJ: And that was helpful, ‘cause otherwise I would not, it would have been a little hard to keep ‘em apart.

Amanda: Well, like, some of, some of the language, like cavalier, it, you have to figure out what the hell a cavalier is through context clues. It’s like one of those things? I’m like, what the hell is a cavalier, like, primary or prim-, whatever it is?

AJ: Yeah.

Amanda: I was like, I don’t know what that means! So you just, there are some concepts that you have to glean through reading?

AJ: Yeah. I think she did a good job with that in a lot of ways, because there’s so much going on in this world, and she doesn’t really pause to describe any of it. Right, one of my notes for discussing this was, necromancy! How does it work? Why does it power everything? Who cares?

[Laughter]

Amanda: Minor details.

AJ: [Laughs] I don’t know! I, I also, now that I’m looking at my notes, I had a one-sentence description for this book, which is, the book Agatha Christie would have written if she’d been lesbian and also a Goth and also lived in space.

Amanda: [Laughs] It all comes back to being in space.

AJ: It’s really, it’s an important factor. I, I like space a lot.

Sarah: Why do you say that it’s what Agatha Christie would have written? What made, what reminded you of Agatha Christie?

AJ: The plot, there, I mean, a lot happens, it’s a long book, but it really essentially felt like a locked-room mystery to me.

Sarah: Ohhh!

AJ: We have all of these characters –

Amanda: I can, I can see that, because a bulk of, like, the mystery takes place in, like, this haunted palace.

AJ: Yeah, we have these eighteen people – eighteen is two times nine? Yeah, okay – we have these eighteen people that, like, get taken to this palace and dropped off there by their little space shuttles, and then the space shuttles, like, are gone, and they can’t leave until they complete the challenge, and then people start dying. So –

Amanda: So it’s kind of like, like Clue, but in space.

AJ: [Laughs] Yes!

Amanda: [Laughs]

AJ: That, I, I like that! That’s a good, good way to think of it. And we have also, like, the, everybody’s kind of a little bit snotty and –

Amanda: In my review I wrote like, everyone is just like a weird, like, villain/anti-hero/anti-heroine? Like, there’s like, everyone has, like, a little thing that gives you pause, and you’re like, ohhh-kay! [Laughs]

AJ: Right, well, they’re all, like, pretty terrible people, and I say this with a lot of love –

Amanda: Yeah. Oh yeah.

AJ: – people.

Amanda: There’s no, like, uniformly good person in this book.

AJ: No, but I think they’re also, when you look at how the world is set up, they think they’re the good guys, but they’re clearly the bad guys.

Sarah: Oooh.

[Laughter]

AJ: Their magic runs off of death, and they talk about the fact that they send the army to kill a bunch of people so that they can use the death energy to power the rest of the society. Like, they are, they’re the bad guys.

Amanda: Something that I, I want to talk about primarily is, obviously Gideon is the main character, ‘cause the book is called Gideon the Ninth –

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – however, I would say my favorite character is Harrow!

Sarah: Who’s Harrow?

Amanda: Harrow – I liked, so Harrow, Harrowhark is essentially Gideon’s master. She rules the Ninth House. At the start of the book, Gideon is trying to leave the Ninth House. She’s been an indentured servant, and she’s like, I’m sick of this shit; I’m leaving. And Harrow kind of has known about this plan for a good week or so – [laughs] – and catches Gideon as she’s trying to leave, does this really badass power move where she’s like, listen, you can leave, but I really need you to come to, like, this, this meeting that’s being called, and Gideon thinks it’s like a farce, and if she goes to the meeting it’s just going to be a trap, but it’s not. Harrow’s like, we’ll fight, and if I win you come to the meeting, you do what I ask of you, and then you get your freedom. If you beat me, you can just leave right now. Gideon says, okay, because Harrow agrees to, like, take off all her, like, armor that she has and kind of like fight one-on-one, and Gideon thinks, well, if Harrow doesn’t have this, like, it’s easy. I’m a, I’m an accomplished swordswoman; I can do this. But there’s this moment where the, the fight starts, and Gideon notices that Harrow’s hands are caked in dirt, and because Harrow has known that Gideon had planned to leave, she spent all night digging up the ground and burying bones beneath their feet and covering the, covering them back up so she can raise the dead during the fight. So she, like, planned ahead because she, like, knew this was going to happen and kind of like outsmarted Gideon, and when Gideon realizes that she’s like, oh fucking shit. Like –

[Laughter]

Amanda: – I’ve been had!

AJ: I think that’s almost a direct quote from the book of what she – [laughs].

Amanda: [Laughs] Yeah, I know! So I, Gideon is very snarky and, like, quippy, but there’s something so dry about, like, Harrow’s delivery and her personality that I just loved. She’s like, okay, Gideon, yeah, you’re making a show of yourself, great. Okay, we have work to do, so can you, like, wrap it up? Like –

[Laughter]

Amanda: She’s like a, a, a space business bitch. Like, she’s, she is there to get shit done, and she’s take-no-prisoners, and I think I liked, I liked her more, slightly more than Gideon.

AJ: See, I didn’t quite get on board with Harrow, and I think part of it is that it took me quite a long ways into the book to realize what an unreliable narrator Gideon was?

Amanda: Oh yeah.

AJ: She totally, she reminds me a lot of Murderbot, if you’ve read those books.

Amanda: Yes! I just read that like last week!

AJ: So good! Those are some of my favorites! But it’s not like, I’m going to be really snarky about everyone and say that I don’t care about them in the narration? But actually –

Amanda: Yeah, but, like, you’re –

AJ: – feel that I actually care the most. And I’m just lying to myself and also to you.

Amanda: Yes.

AJ: So it took me a while to figure that out, so I was just on board with Gideon and like, she hates Harrow, Harrow is terrible, whatever, and then I didn’t quite get it or, like, really like her until the swimming pool scene –

Amanda: Yeah.

AJ: – where she just baldly is like, yo, so this happened, and my entire existence is an abomination, and I’m a war crime. What up?

Amanda: [Laughs] It’s like, you think you know me –

AJ: [Laughs] 

Amanda: – you’re wrong.

AJ: Right, and then I was like, okay, all right, okay, I like this person now. So I’m going to be interested to see kind of –

Amanda: Oh boy.

AJ: – how that all plays out. I have –

Amanda: [Laughs]

AJ: What?

Amanda: I mean, the ending is one where I had to read over, because I’m like, wait, what? What’s happening? [Laughs] What?

AJ: Yeah, I think I need to read that final, like, fight scene again to really get it.

Amanda: My understanding – and hello, SPOILERS! – my understanding at the end is Gideon is still alive, but no one knows what happened, because they can’t recover a body? But the Emperor says that, like, Gideon’s, like, soul is in Harrow now?

AJ: Yeah.

Amanda: But, like, Har-, ‘cause, like, Harrow makes some comment of, like, she didn’t want to look in the mirror ‘cause she was worried that she wouldn’t find a trace of, like, Gideon staring back at her.

AJ: Yeah, so my understanding – and this, I’m going to back up a little bit just for, for clarity for those playing along at home – so each –

Amanda: [Laughs]

AJ: – each House sends two representatives, right, so they have a Necromancer who can do all of the magical, necromancy, raise-the-dead stuff, and then they have the Cavalier Primary who’s like the champion for the Necromancer –

Amanda: Yes.

AJ: – who does their physical fighting, and they’re, they all seemed, like, really, really close-bonded pairs; like, they’re super, super close to each other. They basically live together until one of them dies, or they’re supposed to die at the same time; I wasn’t really sure. But so then to become – again, major SPOILERS here – to become a Lyctor, the Necromancer has to kill the cavalier and, like, absorb their spirit.

Amanda: That’s right. And I should say that, like, Gideon is technically not Harrow’s cavalier. Her cavalier is, like, a, a, a shitty dude who’s like a giant mama’s boy, and when it’s revealed they have to do this, he kind of like bails and refuses to go.

AJ: Yeah, and ends up, he’s kind of like Sir Not-Appearing-in-This-Book really.

[Laughter]

Amanda: And it’s probably for the best that, like, Gideon wound up being the cavalier.

AJ: Yeah, well, Gideon is this almost like magical girl, not, not stereotype I wouldn’t say, but the, the archetype, right? She’s mysterious antecedents, and nobody really knows who she is, and she’s the only one who survived this catastrophic event, and she is the best at –

Amanda: Doesn’t know who, like, her family is.

AJ: Yeah! And, and there’s a bit where someone’s like, how, how long would it take you to turn a long sword fighter into a rapier fighter? And the arms mistress says, years, but for Gideon three months.

Amanda: [Laughs]

AJ: And –

Amanda: Like, she’s like a prodigy.

AJ: Yeah! Which is, I think, really common for that type of character in fantasy novels. Like, there’s a lot of fantasy elements to this, even though it’s set in space –

Amanda: Yes.

AJ: – and one of those is the, like, I’m the best swordsperson anybody’s ever seen. I’ll kick your ass; I’ll kick my ass; I’ll kick your dog. Like –

[Laughter]

AJ: And, and Gideon really is, I think, a representation of that, which I love, ‘cause that’s, you know, growing up on Tamora Pierce books –

Amanda: In my review, ‘cause I, when I talked about it, someone’s like, so I’m confused at what kind of genre this is. It’s in space, but there’s magic? I was like, yeah. I mean – [laughs] – it’s –

AJ: [Laughs] What?

Amanda: Yeah, I mean, it does have fantasy elements; it does have sci-fi elements; it does have high fantasy elements. Like, it is a weird little mishmash of a book.

AJ: I think that’s one of the things I like about it, is it doesn’t necessarily neatly fit into a genre?

Amanda: Yes.

AJ: And I also found that the more sci-fi and fantasy you read, the more they tend to overlap anyway? So it, it wasn’t, I wasn’t sitting there going, but which is this? I was just like, yeah! Give me all the things! I want some chocolate in my peanut butter; let’s do this!

Amanda: [Laughs] And I want some peanut butter in my chocolate!

Sarah: AJ, what characters did you like most?

AJ: Gideon was definitely my favorite. I actually kind of want to be Gideon for Halloween, and I –

Amanda: Do it, do it!

Sarah: [Laughs] Aren’t you like – I’ve seen the cover – aren’t you like three-quarters of the way there?

AJ: Pretty much, yeah.

Sarah: Nerdy Goth, swordplay.

AJ: It’s going to be –

Sarah: You’ve got time!

Amanda: I mean, you’ve got the black clothes, probably, and you probably have a sword! You just need the face paint.

AJ: I just need the face paint, some aviator sunglasses, and I need to dye my hair red. Like, I already have the same haircut that she has on the cover, so.

Amanda: Easy!

AJ: So, so good! [Laughs] And I, I actually really was happy that the cover was a completely accurate representation. I, like, started reading, and it describes her, and I was like, oh my God, that’s exactly what she looks like!

Amanda: [Laughs] I’m curious to see what the next book cover will be.

AJ: Right? I want to see a picture of Harrow!

Amanda: Yeah!

AJ: But yeah, so Gideon was definitely my favorite. I did eventually get on board with Harrow, and I also really liked, there’s a couple of other characters who are from the, the Sixth House, which is, like, the scholarly house, I think?

Amanda: Yeah.

AJ: And, Palamedes and Camilla, and they were great. I really liked them.

Amanda: I, I’m a sucker for, like, an, a big ensemble cast, and this is –

AJ: Yeah.

Amanda: Like, like, I love a good Christopher Guest mockumentary movie. [Laughs]

AJ: Oh my God, if he ever made it into a movie, I would really want it to be that style!

Amanda: Yeah. So, and I just, I love a book that has, you know, like, a breakdown of all the different people. I love house politics. I love themes, so, like, houses that have their, their own little theme I’m into?

AJ or Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: This, like, tapped into all of the strange idiosyncrasies that I have about books?

AJ: Yeah, it really was such incredible catnip, and, like, this is one – so we just had that discussion about when a book is taking over your life and you read it, like, super, super fast? And I am hyperfocused on reading, so when I start a book I usually will finish it in one sitting, maybe two? This one I slowed down ‘cause I didn’t want it to be over.

Amanda: It is –

Sarah: There’s a lot of book, too!

AJ: Yeah! [Laughs] Yeah, I was like two hundred fifty pages in, and I was like, oh no, I only have two hundred and fifty pages left!

[Laughter]

Amanda: It is definitely one of those books that, as you get closer to the end, you’re like, oh no! [Laughs] Because –

AJ: Let’s not wrap this up!

Amanda: And then, like, once it’s over, you’re like, well, shit! Like, how long am I going to have to wait to, like, return to these characters? ‘Cause it’s such, like, a fun book, and I enjoyed being in it? that, you know, it’s a little sad that, like, oh, I’m going to have to wait until, what is it, like, 20-something, 2020 for Harrow’s book?

AJ: Yep, that’s definitely part of the hangover is, like, how long do I have to wait for the sequel?

Amanda: Yeah.

AJ: Oh my gosh, and I’m just thinking about what the characters are doing, and there’s so many loose ends that didn’t get tied up.

Amanda: And then you’re just like, well, might as well just read it again!

[Laughter]

AJ: But you can’t, ‘cause your roommate stole it!

Amanda: Oh no, that’s right! [Laughs]

AJ: Yeah, I don’t – were we recording when we talked about that? I don’t remember.

Amanda: Yes, we were!

AJ: [Laughs] Okay, good. Yeah. She, I hope she’s enjoying it right now! [Exasperated sigh]

Amanda: I hope she listens and feels immense shame.

Sarah: [Laughs]

AJ: She’s going to give me a lot of shit. Like, you told me to borrow it!

Amanda: [Laughs]

AJ: Which I did.

Amanda: I mean, the world she created was very interesting, but it’s not explained. It’s just kind of, it’s out there, and it’s very, like, matter of fact, like, this is what people do, and this is the magic they use, but it doesn’t go into, like, the why or how of it, like you mentioned earlier?

AJ: Yeah.

Amanda: So readers who, who hate those unanswered worldbuilding questions might be a little frustrated reading this?

AJ: Yes. If you really need to know, like, what’s happening in the larger world, this wouldn’t be a good one for you. Maybe after the sequel comes out you could read them back to back, ‘cause I think that’s going to be set a little bit more in the, like, world? But this was such a small, confined area, and she didn’t –

Amanda: Yeah.

AJ: – explain anything that wasn’t immediately relevant.

Amanda: It’s kind of like a weird little microcosm of these, like, space necromancers and, who are, like, trapped in a haunted space castle.

AJ: Right, and you’re like, how did you even, like, why is your world based – again, why, why does necromancy run everything? I feel like it’s this –

Amanda: Yeah, and they’ve got, they have, like, advanced tech, like space shuttles and stuff, but –

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – you know, there’s no real discussion on how, like, tech and magic and, you know, none of that.

AJ: Yeah, no.

Amanda: But that’s not the important stuff.

AJ: It’s not! Not at all! I can really –

Amanda: [Laughs] Don’t worry about it!

AJ: I really enjoyed when they go down into the tunnel and it’s super, like, high tech and, like, metal and plastic and glass and like we would think of being very futuristic, and they’re like, it was so old-fashioned and anachronistic.

Amanda: [Laughs]

AJ: ‘Cause everything now is just skulls and black, and that’s, that’s a – [laughs] – the present fashion.

Amanda: So there is a romantic thread in the book.

Sarah: I was just going to ask about that!

Amanda: Oh!

Sarah: It’s like you’re in my head!

Amanda: Brain twins!

Sarah: Also, I just Googled Gideon the Ninth fanfiction, and there is some small amount of it; I imagine that archive will grow.

AJ: Hopefully!

Amanda: I mean, the book is pretty good on its own, ending aside, but what did you think of, of the, the romantic elements in it, AJ?

AJ: I wanted more. I want –

Amanda: Yes.

[Laughter]

AJ: If you say lesbian necromancers, I want to see some girls kiss girls.

Amanda: Yeah!

AJ: And that didn’t really happen, and, and I was really hoping for some Gideon/Harrow hate sex.

Amanda: I know! That’s what I wanted! At the end, though, I kind of like laughed, because it’s like the climax of the scene, and, like, Harrow’s like, please, like, Gideon, don’t leave. And, like, Gideon’s parting line was like, see you on the other side, sugartits!

AJ: [Laughs]

Amanda: And then, like – [laughs] –

AJ: She starts calling her all of the pet names! She’s like, micropustular queen, and I’m just like –

[Laughter]

AJ: So I, I definitely was thinking like, oh, this is what fanfiction is for, is to fulfill this need for me until the sequel.

Amanda: Yeah.

AJ: I’m curious how much there’s going to be, because a lot of times femme slash doesn’t really get written in the same quantities that you see male/male.

Amanda: Oh yeah.

AJ: So – ‘cause, like, there’s been a few things that I’ve read and watched lately that I was like, there’s going to be so much fanfiction for this! And there was not. Ocean’s 8, for example. Not enough fanfic.

Amanda: Oh really!

AJ: Yeah! I was so surprised.

Sarah: I’m shocked!

AJ: Right?! I’m like, why is nobody writing the Cate Blanchett/Sandra Bullock, like, coffee shop AU of my dreams?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Speaking of hate-fucking lesbians, yeah!

Amanda: Yeah!

AJ: [Laughs] It’s a thing! I liked so much of how she was setting up the romance, and then it didn’t ever get – what’s the word I’m looking for?

Amanda: It wasn’t, like, fully realized. Like, you get –

AJ: Yeah.

Amanda: – like, just the start of them realizing there’s, like, feelings and stuff like that, but there’s not really any sort of, like, physical affection or, or anything like that. It, the romance is definitely a back seat to, like, the larger political goings-on.

AJ: Yeah, definitely. There, there’s a, there’s a hug one time – I think that’s it!

Amanda: Yeah!

AJ: It is definitely, like, very much stated on the page that they are both attracted to women, though. It’s not, it’s definitely not subtext. Like, at the, the very first line is something like, Gideon Nav packed up her clothes, her swords, and her dirty magazines and was ready to escape the Ninth House, and then later on there, it’s like, there’s so many tits in your dirty magazines! [Laughs]

Amanda: Yeah, like, she scandalizes that, like, one old advisor? Like, listen, I’ll give you some of my magazines if you just let me go, and he is, like, affronted.

AJ: And then later Harrow’s like, well, there really is some terrible stuff in those, which actually, how does Harrow know what’s in Gideon’s dirty magazines?

Amanda: Oh, she probably roots through her stuff.

AJ: Yeah.

Amanda: I wouldn’t put it past her.

AJ: That, yeah, that checks out.

[Laughter]

AJ: They have this, such a weird, like, classic love/hate relationship, I would say, because they, it talks about the fact that they were the only other child that the other one had to, like, play with.

Amanda: Yes. But there’s clearly, like, a power dynamic. Like, they’re the only people that they have to play with, but Gideon is still a servant –

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – and Harrow is, like, part of the ruling class for that House.

AJ: Yeah, and as much as Gideon says she hates Harrow, I noticed that she never disobeys Harrow. Like, even when they –

Amanda: Ooh, good point!

AJ: Yeah, like, even when they get to the house and Harrow says, don’t talk to anyone, Gideon doesn’t! Even though she hasn’t, she, like, doesn’t even see Harrow, so she’s pretending to be under a vow of silence for, like, two-thirds of the book.

Amanda: And I think – so I, their relationship, I think, has a certain degree of respect in that, you know, Gideon may give Harrow shit and be unhappy, like, with her station, but Gideon, I, I think, also can sense when she’s out of her depth?

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: Because Gideon doesn’t, like, play politics. Gideon is, like, the brawn to Harrow’s brain sort of deal, not that neither of them are not smart or not strong, but, you know, Harrow’s more tapped into this sort of, like, political machinations, and, you know, if she tells Gideon, hey, don’t say anything, Gideon prob- – like, I, I respect that Gideon doesn’t try to show up Harrow and, like, flex her, her power and, you know, just realizes that Harrow probably knows what she’s talking about.

AJ: Yeah, there’s several points in the story where someone’s like, and the Ninth House already figured out such-and-such, and Gideon’s like, well, I didn’t!

Amanda: [Laughs] That wasn’t me!

AJ: I had no idea what you were talking about, but Harrow obviously knew. So yeah, and she also respects Harrow’s necromancy a lot.

Amanda: Yes.

AJ: She never will argue that Harrow’s not good at what she does, which she very clearly in the text is super, super good at what she does, ‘cause there’s several points when someone’s like, that’s not possible! And Harrow’s like, I could do that. Which was always pretty fun to read. It’s like, you can’t, you can’t make a skeleton autonomous! And Harrow’s like, yeah, well, I can.

Amanda: Well, like – [laughs] – it’s revealed early on in the book that Harrow’s parents are “still alive,” but they’re not alive; they had technically died years prior, and Harrow just had reanimated them?

AJ: That’s right! I forgot! So nobody knows – she’s, she’s the heir of the Ninth House officially, and nobody knows that her parents are dead. ‘Cause that’s the con she pulls on Gideon at the very beginning too, is she’s like, I’ll give you this, like, paper that will get you into the army, and then she signs it with her mother’s name, so Harrow can’t, or Gideon can’t blackmail her –

Amanda: Yeah.

AJ: – with the fact that she knows that her mother is dead, because if she does, then the paper’s worthless.

Ah, man, this book is so fun!

Amanda: It is really fun.

AJ: Everything happens so much.

[Laughter]

Amanda: One thing I like is, like, it is a, a larger book, and it may seem, like, daunting, but I never got the sense of it slogging or dragging, or I’m, like, reading like, oh, this is a boring spot.

AJ: Yeah, very much so. Every, it didn’t feel like any page was wasted or anything was happening that wasn’t furthering the plot?

Amanda: Yeah.

AJ: And it was also very creative. Like, I am one of those annoying people who guesses the plot of the movie –

Amanda: Yes!

AJ: – in the first five minutes and the twist – [laughs] – and some of what happened actually was really surprising. Like, I did not expect the end at all.

Amanda: I did not either, and that made me kind of sad, ‘cause that’s not the ending I would’ve wanted either? It makes sense, but, you know, as a romance reader too, like, I want to, I want some happy smooching at the end!

AJ: Right? I wanted them to be happy together and, like, smooch their face paint off and then go off to be Lyctors and, like –

Amanda: Just, you know, wear all black all the time.

AJ: Yeah! With the veil or whatever it is.

Amanda: I feel like –

AJ: Doesn’t it say she wears a black –

Amanda: A great power couple.

AJ: Yeah, exactly! And there was so much about Gideon that seemed, again, that, like, magical girl, super special person that I did not think she was going to die! Like, you’ve set up all this stuff –

Amanda: Yeah.

AJ: – about how special she is, and then –

Amanda: And the book is named after her!

AJ: And the book is named after her! It’s almost like the ending, it’s – okay, it did not make me as mad as this, but it’s almost like the ending of Feed by Mira Grant, if you’ve read that. This is –

Amanda: Oh my gosh, yes.

AJ: [Laughs] But it, it’s the same kind of thing, and that one made me really mad, because I didn’t think it was properly set up in the text?

Amanda: I cried my eyes out.

AJ: Oh my gosh. I can’t, I can’t read the rest of the series; I’m too sad about it.

Amanda: No, I stopped well – SPOILER: so, you want to, if you want to hear something very awkward, I wrote a post for Smart Bitches about why I love Feed so much, and it’s because, like, I have a really close relationship with my brother, and, you know, that relationship really, like, spoke to me, and I, how I, like, sobbed my eyes out during the scene where, you know, she is starting to turn into a zombie and she’s, like, typing on the computer, and she’s essentially asking her brother to kill her and, you know, make sure she doesn’t turn into a zombie. And what I didn’t know, and probably what you don’t know, since you didn’t continue the series, is people in the comments were like, okay, this is a great piece and everything, but it’s a little weird that you reference, you know, like, the, the sibling relationship, because later in the series it’s revealed that they’re not, like – they’re, like, not, I wouldn’t say, like, clones, but they’re like, they were created? And they also had, like, an incestuous relationship.

Sarah: Ughhh!

AJ: Oh my! Well!

Amanda: Yeah! So I was like, ooh, this is very awkward!

AJ: Yeah! Wow!

Amanda: And now I’m kind of glad I never finished it! So I just, I’m going to keep that experience locked away in a little bubble and never think about it again!

AJ: Sometimes –

Sarah: [Laughs]

AJ: Yeah, sometimes you just have to do that!

Amanda: [Laughs]

AJ: Like, block!! [Laughs] I’m going to, going to put this book aside, and I’m going to never read the rest, and it’s going to exist for me exactly as I knew it to be, and la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la!

Sarah: Oh, oh, there are many things that I have done that with.

AJ: I’m hoping that Gideon the Ninth and this series won’t be one of them, although it would be possible from where they, from where she left it to mess it up to a point where I would be like, la-la-la-la! I didn’t read the second one!

Amanda: Sequels are, are hard! And they give me great anxiety. [Laughs]

AJ: I mean, I’m still sad they only made one Matrix movie! La-la-la-la-la!

[Laughter]

Sarah: I often feel, with a book like this and series of similar size, that when there’s a sequel – this is such, there, I’m, I’m a terrible person; I acknowledge this upfront – there is a sense of, you are really asking a lot of my time here, and I need to trust that you’re not going to fuck this up.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: And, and I feel like a –

AJ: Yep.

Sarah: – total ass for having that attitude, because it’s like, I don’t have to read this series. I don’t have to; there are lots of other things I could read, but when I’m considering it and it’s not done, and I realize that, you know, if you don’t buy it in progress it may never be done, there’s like, there’s like a, an, a dichotomy to the decision: do I buy it; do I not?  I have to trust in the ending and the fact that the person or persons writing know where they are going, and sometimes I don’t, so I’m out. And I, I am terrible about series for that reason. The Cynsters by Stephanie Laurens, that’s a one-book series! Did you know that?

Amanda: [Laughs] Now I do!

Sarah: Harry Potter’s like three books.

AJ: [Laughs]

Amanda: Oh, don’t even talk to me about –

Sarah: Yeah. Yep.

Amanda: – the fifth Harry Potter book.

Sarah: I bailed in the middle of the fourth and have no regrets to my decision.

AJ: Yeah! That, I, I started reading the fourth book, was like, man, she needs an editor! I’m done with this. Never went back, so all I know about Harry Potter is what I read in Harry Potter fanfiction. And it seems like a great series. I’ve, I’ve heard there’s no epilogue at all.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: Well, just, it’s so funny as a romance reader and the stuff that I can, like, the angst that I can put up with, but the fifth book, was it Order of the Phoenix? I was like, God damn it, Harry! You are the whiniest boy I have ever read about, and I’m done! I can’t!

Sarah: I have so many – [laughs] – I have so many frustrations! We were in New York, and we got tickets to see Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, which I imagine some people listening to this will be like, oh, it’s so wasted on you. First of all, as an act of stagecraft, that play is astonishing. Like, it is visually staggeringly good, and the story is, is, is sort of on par, but I look at that and all of the other books, and I’m like, Harry Potter and Why Don’t These People Have Therapy?

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Harry Potter and Where is the Pastoral Care in This World? Harry Potter and Dead Kids Don’t Matter. Like, come on! I can’t get back into it, even though I appreciate so many things about the world, and I appreciate it especially with the play. Like, they had custom carpet; they had custom decorations in the theater; they had, every, everything you looked at was part of entering the world of the books and the play from the minute you entered the theater, and I have so much appreciation and admiration for that. Sort of like going to Diagon Alley in Universal Florida, because the construction of that area uses so many tricks of depth perception to make it look bigger and farther away.

Amanda: Yeah! When you see, like, Hogwarts on the hill, you think it’s massive.

Sarah: No, it would, like, fit in my car!

Amanda: It’s not. Yeah.

Sarah: It’s, the, the tricks of deception and the way that stagecraft is used to create those two areas in the theme parks is amazing! I could hang out and look at all the details for days, but if you get me started on the books I just start ranting. [Laughs]

AJ: Yeah, it’s Harry Potter and the Untreated Massive Complex PTSD. Like – [laughs]

Sarah: Yes! Harry Potter and These People Need Therapy. [Laughs]

Amanda: And I know some people, like, shit on the fact that, oh, if Hermione Granger were the heroine it wouldn’t be as exciting. Wrong! Wrong!

[Laughter]

Amanda: The series would probably only be one book long, because – it wouldn’t be a series, because Hermione wouldn’t put up with that nonsense, and she would fix all the problems, and then we would move on with our lives.

Sarah: My favorite headcanon about Harry Potter post books is when Hermione finds out that Harry has named his kid Albus Severus and the twenty-five-year rant that she goes on at Ron: that –

Amanda: Like, what is wrong with you?

Sarah: Do you remember him making fun of my teeth and my hair? Do you remember him having his entire house laugh at my appearance? I was ten! Do you remember any of that? Abusive, motherfucking assholes, and don’t even get me started on that bastard with the suicide-murder plot that was, like, you know, we’re just going to kill you and that’s fine. Yeah, let’s definitely name children after those two. Like, I can just imagine Ron in all of the different actor carnations like, yep, uh-huh, yeah, absolutely right. You’re totally right, dear. I, you should tell him! Absolutely. You should, you can call him, like – oh, let’s, let’s sit down and have a cup of tea before you call him, but yeah, absolutely. Over and over, and I always wonder, like, what, what’s Hermione going to call this kid? ‘Cause you know she’s not going to call him by those names.

AJ: She’s going to call him Remus Sirius Potter.

[Laughter]

Sarah: We’re going to call you Do-Over, my small child. We’re going to redo your names.

AJ: Or she could call him, what’s – did you guys see that thing on the internet one time that was the guy naming his cat, and he wanted to name it after the two bravest men he ever met, so he named it Two Robocops?

Amanda: [Laughs] Two Robocops!

[Laughter]

AJ: – going to call him Two Robocops Potter.

Sarah: I would read a whole bunch of books about Two Robocops Potter, to be honest with you!

AJ: Yeah. And how none of the wizards understand what his name is a reference to. I kind of want to write this thing now.

Sarah: You, you, you should!

Amanda: I would read that fanfic!

Sarah: I know for a while there was a, a fanfic blog about Hogwarts tech support?

Amanda: Yes!

AJ: Oh my gosh, I need that in my life! I –

Sarah: Amanda, do you still have the link? It was basically like, finally the Muggles were like, this is ridiculous; I’m not running on these –

Amanda: It was on Tumblr, I think.

Sarah: Yeah, and it was basically this one guy who got hired to do tech support ‘cause they brought internet to, to Hogwarts.

Amanda: It’s called The Setup Wizard.

Sarah: The Setup Wizard? Which –

Amanda: Yeah, I’ll, I’ll DM it to you.

Sarah: Ohhh –

AJ: Please do, yeah. ‘Cause I, the, one thing I did not mention in my intro is that my day job is tech support, so –

Sarah: Oh, dude!

AJ: – that’s going to hit me in a lot of ways! [Laughs]

Sarah: Dude!

Amanda: Yeah. I’ll, I’ll put it in the shared one. Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s over now; they, like, wrapped it up; but the archives are still there.

AJ: I, I’m going to read through that. I’m probably also going to make my coworkers read through that, ‘cause, like, obviously.

Sarah: AJ, I used to do tech support too. I used to wander all over Manhattan and go into people’s homes and remove malware from their computers ‘cause they absolutely were not looking at porn, how dare I even suggest such a thing? And I look back, and that was not the safest job I ever had, but I had a great time. Like, I just wandered all over Manhattan with a backpack full of screwdrivers and fixed people’s desktops.

Amanda: What was the weirdest house you went into?

Sarah: I went to the penthouse apartment of a famous writer who absolutely owned that he had been looking for porn for research purposes. He was doing a deep study for a character in a project he was working on with a bunch of other writers.

Amanda: Was it Franzen?

Sarah: No. No, no, no.

Amanda: It was Jonathan Franzen? [Laughs]

Sarah: No, it’s, it’s an older dude, very much older than me, and the, he was a delight. He went out of his way to, like, welcome me and was like, I’m going to call your boss and let her know you’re here; just give me a moment. Put her on speaker phone and was like, I just want you to know, Sarah’s here. We’re going to have a cup of tea, we’re going to fix this infernal computer that doesn’t work, and I –

Amanda: Oh!

Sarah: He was utterly, gloriously fun and told me the best raunchy stories and was obsessed with feeding me, and I would probably have to go to his apartment, mm, once every two months because he was researching predators, so he would hang out in places where predators were, and the malware that you get, my God.

AJ: Oh yeah.

Sarah: He was like, they’re gross. I cannot wait to, like, create one and then destroy him, and I was like, oh yes? Tell me more! So that’s my, that was my favorite. That was my absolute favorite.

AJ: Man, I wish I had any stories that good. I just work in a call center, so it’s just people calling me and being like, yeah, right, your, your website’s frozen.

Sarah: Oh dude!

AJ: Yeah.

Sarah: Text support and the phone? Ugh!

AJ: I, I have some fun. Sometimes people will call in and just want to tell me random stories about their life. One guy gave me his recipe for a Dark and Stormy?

Sarah: Ooh!

Amanda: Ooh, I love a good Dark and Stormy.

AJ: Yeah, it was a good recipe! [Laughs] So I, you know, there’s side benefits, but mostly it’s just me being like, okay, let’s clear your cache and cookies. Great, great, does it work now?

Sarah: Yeah.

AJ: It does! Wonderful! Well, you have a great day! Please clear your cache and cookies regularly! I don’t do that at home, but you should!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Looking at Gideon the Ninth –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – how many times do you think you will read it again?

Amanda: For me, at least two more times before the next book comes out.

AJ: Yep. That sounds about right. I’m a big re-reader, so it could be more if I run out of new things. Ha, yeah, that’ll happen. But definitely a couple.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So is this one of your best books of the year?

Amanda: I don’t know if I would say, like, best books, but it’s definitely one of the most entertaining books I’ve read this year.

AJ: I would definitely say this is one of the best books I’ve read this year, and I’m trying to remember any other book that I’ve read this year. [Laughs] Yeah, this is up there for sure.

Sarah: And this book, like, took over both of your brains, right? Like, you’re still thinking about it?

Amanda: Oh yeah.

AJ: Oh yeah. All the time. I, like, just how, what, and then, what? Like, tha-tha-tha!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Are you thinking about, like, all the unanswered things and all the, but what, wait a minute, what happened to that character? Like, all of the things that weren’t fully resolved?

Amanda: I don’t think about it too much. I just keep thinking about the ending mainly. And it also just makes my heart so happy when I’m in the bookstore and I see people buying them? So – [laughs].

AJ: I, I think about some of the unanswered questions. I keep thinking – and I may have already said this, ‘cause I’m losing track of what I said, but I keep thinking, this just feels like, if in a D&D campaign, Dungeons & Dragons campaign, if the party failed to kill the Lich King, this is the world you would get after the party was, like, killed.

Sarah: Ohhh.

AJ: It’s just the necromancers taking over.

Amanda: I would agree.

AJ: And so I keep thinking how much of a fun D&D world this would be?

Amanda: Someone do it!

AJ: I play Dungeons & Dragons with my roommate who has currently borrowed the book, and she’s our DM, and I feel like I could talk her into this.

Amanda: Hopefully she feels inspired.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Oh my gosh, the D&D campaigns that could come out of this story.

AJ: Yeah, you could do so much, like, lawful evil, just mayhem with it. I, I feel like you can tell you have a good, well-developed character when I’m done reading the book and I’m alike, but what are they doing after I turn the page? Like, after I turn the last page, what are they up to right now?

Amanda: So I have an interesting question that I just thought of. So you know in Harry Potter everyone’s like, what house are you? What, what House do you think you’d be in?

Sarah: Oooh!

AJ: Oooh! So the Second is the army, so definitely not the Second.

[Laughter]

AJ: Not the Eighth, ‘cause they were jerks. I, I think I might be in the Sixth House. Like, the –

Amanda: The scholars?

AJ: The scholars, yeah.

Amanda: I don’t think I would be in the Seventh House, but that’s what, like, appeals to me the most.

AJ: Is it, like, artistic house? Is that the –

Amanda: Yeah, they’re like, yeah. They’re, like, for beauty and stuff like that, and I just, like, think it’s cool, like, marrying necromancers with, like, art and flowers. I don’t –

AJ: And, do they bring, do they bring the flowers back to life? ‘Cause I feel like they must. They must have, like, undying flowers that they just keep, like, necromancing.

Amanda: Oh my God, that’d be fantastic! I want to be the, in the Seventh House! That’s what I want to be in!

AJ: That checks out. That’d probably be a really fun House.

Amanda: I think it would be!

AJ: As much as any necromancy House is fun, but everybody seemed to be having a good time.

Amanda: [Laughs] Everybody seemed to be having a good time!

AJ: I mean, you know, other than the dead people, but even them, some of them.

Amanda: It’s just like essentially the Addams family, where they’re all just fucking weird, but they just love being weird together.

AJ: Like, as much as Gideon hates being in the Ninth House, like, and the Ninth House, Sarah, is, like, dark, and it’s a crypt, and everybody there is either a nun or a priest of this, like, death cult, and everybody wears skull face paint –

Sarah: Cool.

AJ: – they seem to really enjoy it, and it’s so normal to them that you don’t get the sense that she’s been traumatized by it or that, like, it’s depressing.

Amanda: And can you imagine, like, Gideon being anywhere else?

AJ: No! Not –

Amanda: I, I think the Ninth is, like, the perfect fit for Gideon.

AJ: ‘Cause anywhere else they would have also, like, not let her just be as snarky and, and weird as she is.

Amanda: Yes.

AJ: But she grew up in a house with really no adults! It was just like the arms mistress that trained her, and the one dude that hates her, and Harrow.

Amanda: And Harrow, yeah! I would say, anyway, the book is good, and everyone should read it, so. If it’s –

Sarah: Okay.

Amanda: – too long; didn’t listen, every, everyone should read it.

AJ: Yes. It’s, also, it’s macabre, but it’s not scary. I am a massive wimp about horror, and I get nightmares, and this did not give me any nightmares.

Amanda: It’s not like a heavy read, either. It feels, like, pretty light, given the –

AJ: Yeah, it’s –

Amanda: – the creepiness of it.

AJ: It’s really funny in parts. I wish I had some, some quotes, but some of the lines are hysterical.

Amanda: Yes.

AJ: So if you like reading about death but also laughing –

Sarah: Okay!

AJ: – recommended.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So I know you guys both have book hangover. Is there anything that you are reading or want to read now, or do you just, I want to read this again?

Amanda: I’m about to start a book that I’ve been putting off just because, like, I want to savor it by not reading it, if that makes any sense? [Laughs] It is the follow-up to Polaris Rising, which is Aurora Blazing. I’m going to start it today or tomorrow, and one of my friends has already read it, and she loved it, and I trust her opinion, but it’s also like, but if I start it, then I have to finish it, and then it’ll be over!

[Laughter]

Sarah: You have bad book hangover. This is really bad. [Laughs]

AJ: Yeah, I’ve, I’ve been trying to convince myself to read something else. I have not yet managed it? I’ve been knitting myself some black socks to –

Amanda: [Laughs]

AJ: – to deal with my hangover. I have Magic for Liars by Sarah Gailey.

Amanda: Oooh!

AJ: Which I’ve also been savoring by not reading.

[Laughing]

AJ: I, I keep thinking –

Amanda: Isn’t that kind of sad? You’re like, I really want to read it! But I don’t want to read it! [Laughs]

AJ: I, like – mm – but then if, if I read it, and, like, what if it’s, what if it gives me more book hangover, and then I’m just, like, double hung over?

Amanda: You’re just in, like, the, the pit of hangover.

AJ: I really am. I should probably just look up some fanfiction; that’s usually how I get over that. [Laughs] But then I get in, then I get in fanfiction mode, and once, once I start reading fanfiction it’s, that’s three days of my life, just completely gone.

Amanda: Yeah, and then you’re like, oh boy, I have all these books to read now. [Laughs]

AJ: I feel like I just downloaded something else that could help clear the hangover. Oh, I just got The Queen of Rhodia, the new Effie Calvin book, so –

Amanda: Ohhh!

AJ: – I might, maybe that’ll, that’s, that’s different enough that it might break me out of my, my Goth funk.

Amanda: Have you read the second one?

AJ: Yeah, I have, Daughter of the Sun? Mm-hmm.

Amanda: Yes. So I was just looking at that today, because I was inputting books. Was it good? Was it as good as the first book?

AJ: Yes. Yeah, it’s really fun. It’s a little bit different. So the first book felt a little bit more high fantasy to me. It was, you know, princesses getting married and fighting dragons, and it’s, like, got all of that, you know, courtly drama kind of thing, and the second one’s a road trip book. So it’s a lawful good paladin and a goddess of chaos go on a road trip to stop evil.

Amanda: Oh my gosh! That speaks to me on so many levels! [Laughs]

AJ: It’s, yep! Same! I was like, ooh! Ooh, opposites attract, eh? I could do this! So yeah, it really –

Amanda: And a road trip!

AJ: On a road trip, and – yeah. It was, I definitely recommend both of, of her books that I’ve read, and then I’m excited to see how the third – the third one supposedly is going to tie the first two together is what I’ve heard? Like, the first two are very different characters, and then the third one involves both I think, but it will definitely be a tone change. I’ll say that. There’s no necromancy in, in –

Amanda: [Laughs] No, like, I just got the Tor newsletter, and it’s like, breaking down the Gideon the Ninth cover!

Sarah: Oh, it’s like they know. They’re just messing with you at this point!

[Indistinct]

Amanda: [Laughs] I was like, what a coincidence!

Sarah: I swear I don’t –

AJ: Oh man.

Sarah: – I didn’t tell anybody that we were recording this at this time. I swear I did not.

AJ: I, I told my roommate, and I know Tor.com’s bugging my house, so it’s my fault.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Yeah. Hi, Tor. How you doing today?

AJ: Oh man, I’m just looking at this cover now. This is, this cover is so good.

Sarah: It really does what it needs to do.

AJ: Yeah.

Amanda: It, like –

AJ: Talk about Cover Awe. Not only, it does what it needs to do; it has the character exactly as she’s described in the book, which so many covers do not do, and it drives me bananas.

Amanda: And it’s got that pose of, like, cool guys don’t look at explosions.

AJ: Yeah!

[Laughter]

Amanda: You know?

AJ: That’s exactly what it is, and she’s got the aviators, and they zoom in on her face –

Amanda: Yeah!

AJ: – and she’s got, like, a smirk that I never caught before.

Amanda: Yep.

AJ: Yep. Hair is half pompadour, half fauxhawk, the type of hair intended to say, ladies, start your engines!

[Laughter]

AJ: I’ve just been attacked! I did not come here to be attacked like this!

Amanda: I’m so sorry, AJ! I’m so sorry!

Sarah: Oh my God!

AJ: It’s not your fault! It’s Tor.com attacking me!

Sarah: So not cool!

Amanda: Tor, if you’re listening, can we get, like, a poster or something of the cover?

AJ: Yes! I would put that on my wall! I would move one of the bookshelves to put that on my wall!

[Laughter]

Amanda: I don’t know why more publishers don’t create book covers into, to prints to, like, sell. ‘Cause some, some covers, especially in, like, YA are fucking gorgeous.

AJ: Right, like the Rainbow Rowell covers that Kevin Wada did for her?

Amanda: I mean, my roommate went out and spent real human dollars on the Kevin Wada life-size cutout of Baz, and it now lives in our house.

AJ: I did not know that was a thing, and I kind of need it!

Amanda: [Laughs]

AJ: It will go so well with my life-size cutout of Aragorn from Lord of the Rings.

Amanda: Yeah. No, we have a huge cardboard cutout in our home. My roommate’s going to the Rainbow Rowell event in Boston soon, and everyone is trying to do their best to convince her to take him with her to the event to get Rainbow to, like, sign him or something. I don’t know how –

AJ: Seconded!

Amanda: – how successfully we’ve convinced her, but everyone’s like, you’ve got to take him! You’ve got to take him!

Sarah: All right, I’m going to hit Stop, unless you have anything else you want to add.

Amanda: Not from me!

AJ: The only other thing I have in my notes is, in conclusion, screaming. AHHHHH!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Okay, in conclusion, screaming! Okay, works!

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. I am curious: are you going to read Gideon the Ninth? Have you already read it? Are you obsessed? Are you making a Halloween costume like AJ? We have, cannot wait to show you the pictures; they’re amazing. I would love to hear from you about this book or any other book you’re obsessed with. You can email me at [email protected]. You can leave me a message or tell me a terrible joke at 1-201-371-3272.

I also want to tell you that Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is now on the Radio.com mobile app, which is way cool.

You can find Amanda and AJ on Smart Bitches obviously, and Amanda’s on Twitter @_ImAnAdult. AJ is @gayrobotsocks, which is so great. [Laughs]

This podcast is brought to you by Once a Spy by Mary Jo Putney. Can a marriage of convenience for two spies blossom into something more? Renowned for her unique blend of adventure, wit, and sweeping romance, New York Times bestselling author Mary Jo Putney matches Simon, a dashing spy, with Suzanne, a Frenchwoman whose past will bear no scrutiny. Neither wanted or expected a true marriage, but as Suzanne joins Simon in a search for his long-missing foster brother, warmth and caring begin to heal both their scars, and a powerful passion sparks between them. Then news from France threatens to disrupt their happiness. Napoleon has escaped from Elba, and Wellington personally asks Simon to prevent another devastating war, only this time Simon does not go into danger alone. Their hard-fought love grows against the backdrop of the Battle of Waterloo in the latest Rogues Redeemed novel. Once a Spy by Mary Jo Putney is on sale now wherever books are sold and at kensingtonbooks.com. You can find more information at maryjoputney.com.

The transcript for this episode is being brought to you by our podcast Patreon community. Thank you to the Patreon supporters who are making sure that every episode is accessible and that the show continues every week. If you would like to join the Patreon community, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Thank you so very much for your support.

The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. She’s on Twitter, guess where: @SassyOutwater. This is a band called Sketch. This track is called “Out of My Cage,” and it is from their album Shed Life. You can find it on Amazon or on iTunes or wherever you buy your funky, funky music.

In the show notes for this episode at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, I will have links to all of the things that we talked about, including the small but growing cache of Gideon the Ninth fanfic, The Setup Wizard, all of the discussions about the covers, the Reddit Ask Me Anything with author Tamsyn Muir, and Amanda’s review of Gideon the Ninth, so if you were like, I want to, wait, what? Stop! Go back! I want to know what that is! All the links are in the show notes, so never fear.

And if you’re going to go over to Smart Bitches, I can also tell you what’s coming up this week. We have so many reviews. Holy smokes. Every book ever is coming out in October, and we are reviewing so many of them, and there’s so many you’re going to want to read, too. We also have Cover Snark, Help a Bitch Out, and, of course, Books on Sale every day, so come on over and hang out with us.

As always, I end the show with a terrible joke, so if you have listened all the way to the end, you get rewarded by truly awful humor. And you know what, you, you deserve really good bad jokes, right? Okay, so, keeping with our necromancy theme, are you ready? [Clears throat]

Why are skeletons so calm?

Why are skeletons super calm and chill?

Because nothing gets under their skin!

[Laughs] Now I will give you a bonus joke ‘cause I’m terrible. My older son plays many, many instruments, including many, many brass instruments, so I like to follow him around and say, hey, hey, what, what’s a skeleton’s favorite instrument? Huh? What a favorite, what, what’s a skeleton’s favorite instrument? And then he rolls his eyes and walks away, ‘cause he’s almost fourteen, but if you’re curious:

The skeleton’s favorite instrument is the trombone.

[Laughs] I love bad jokes! I like telling them at dinner ‘cause then everyone groans. It’s great! I hope you enjoy them too.

On behalf of everyone here, AJ, Amanda, all of the lesbian necromancers in space, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week.

[fast moving music]