294. Women in Aussie Rules Football: A Chat with Amy Andrews, Catherine Evans, and Nicola Marsh

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hey there, happy Friday, or happy whatever day it is when you’re listening to this. This is episode number 294 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and today we are talking about women in Aussie rules football. Harlequin Escape recently published a trilogy of novels with heroines who all play for the Australian rules football women’s league. Now that’s a real thing: the AFLW, the Australian Football League Women’s league began in February 2017 and has been a massive success in Australia. It’s a professional football league for women; how cool is that? For the romance series that is based on the AFLW, Amy Andrews, Catherine Evans, and Nicola Marsh created the Women of W.A.R. – Women’s Aussie Rules – a fictional league inspired by the real thing! Their three books, Game On, Long Game, and Fair Game, are on sale now. Each novel features a heroine who plays football on the professional level, so naturally we had absolutely nothing to talk about at all. Okay, first, you guys need to see these covers. Oh my gosh! I have a growing, noticeable crush on the model pictured on Long Game. I really envy her arms. These covers are incredibly good! I love them.

Now, this interview is in two parts. Due to connection problems, I recorded first with Amy and Nicola, and then later with Catherine. So in part one, Amy, Nicola, and I discuss the creation of the series, writing athlete heroines, and of course explaining Aussie rules football to audiences who are unfamiliar with the game. With Catherine, we talk about her joy in seeing a sport that she loved to play as a young person become a professional league for women on television. All three authors share what they’re working on, talk about the development of the series, and explore the differences in writing a heroine who is a pro athlete, which is, by the way, one of my favorite kinds of heroines?

I also want to send a very large and deeply felt thank-you to Kate Cuthbert for helping me coordinate across so many time zones! So many time zones. And for contacting me about the series and helping me shape the interview, because I am deeply unfamiliar with Aussie rules football, and I had a really great time doing this interview, so thank you, thank you, Kate.

This episode is brought to you by Hot and Badgered by Shelly Laurenston. The wait is over! New York Times bestselling author Shelly Laurenston returns to the shapeshifter genre and the animal her readers have been clamoring for since the release of her fan-favorite novel Bite Me. Which animal? The indomitable honey badger. These outrageously snarky honey badger sisters are fearless, flawless, and fierce. What happens after a honey badger meets a soft-hearted grizzly bear by barging into his hotel room naked, from the balcony no less, while fleeing armed gunmen? Find out in Hot and Badgered by New York Times bestselling author Shelly Laurenston. Hot and Badgered is on sale now wherever books are sold and at kensingtonbooks.com.

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The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. I will have information at the end of the episode as to who this is. I will also have a pray-view – preview? Preview. Promo, preview, both – of what’s coming up on the site this week, and I have a terrible joke, and an outtake, because it took me, like, ten tries to get this intro recorded. I don’t know what’s wrong with my face today.

I will also, of course, have links to all of the books that we discuss; links to videos about Aussie rules football, so if you want to learn how it is or how it works you can do that; plus YouTube links to the Women’s AFL, which is really, really cool!

And now, without any further ado, let’s go to part one of our interview. On with the podcast.

[music]

Sarah: Thank you guys so much for, for joining me for this recording. I’m really excited to talk to you guys. The first question is really easy: if you could introduce yourselves and the book that you’ve written, and Amy you can go first.

Amy Andrews: Okay, my name’s Amy Andrews, and I wrote Fair Game in the, in the female AFL series.

Sarah: All right. And Nicola?

Nicola Marsh: Yes, I’m Nicola Marsh, and I wrote the first book in the series, which is Game On, and it’s a novella as part of the Women of W.A.R. series.

Sarah: My first question is actually for Nicola. I’m wondering – I, I am told by Kate Cuthbert that you are a massive Aussie rules football fan.

Nicola: I am; I’m nuts about Aussie rules. [Laughs]

Sarah: I would –

Nicola: Crazy about it.

Sarah: – very, very, very much, would very much love for you to explain the basics of the sport to audiences who might be unfamiliar with Aussie rules football, which is pretty much everyone in America; no pressure.

Amy: [Laughs] Go!

Nicola: Right, okay. Well, there’s, two teams play against each other, and there’s twenty-two a side, so at any one time there’s eighteen on the field and four on the interchange bench, and you’ve got forwards, midfield, and backs, and you’ve got what’s called rucks and ruck-rovers and rovers, who sort of follow the ball all around, and if you kick the ball through the two big sticks, that they call six points, and if you kick the ball in between a big stick and a small stick, that’s one point.

Sarah: Whoa. Now, one of the things I’ve noticed –

Amy: And they have very, they have very tiny shorts. That’s the most important thing to know.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I –

Nicola: And, and, of course, hot bods.

Sarah: I was just going to say, and the uniforms are very small.

Nicola: [Laughs]

Amy: Yes. Very teeny-tiny.

Nicola: Me too, which of course is really important.

Sarah: Obviously! Now, the other thing is, the ball is different, right?

Nicola: Yes, it’s, it’s actually an oval shape, and it’s made from pig skin.

Sarah: And it’s not like a rugby ball; rugby is different, right?

Amy: Is it?

Nicola: Oh, it’s not that different.

Amy and Sarah: They’re similar.

Nicola: They’re fairly similar.

Amy: It’s not a soccer ball.

Sarah: No.

Nicola: No.

Sarah: It’s oblong with a sort of pointy, it’s oval.

Amy: Yes.

Sarah: Right.

Nicola: Oval, yeah, not round, yeah.

Sarah: Okay. So with Aussie rules football, is there tackling, is there a lot of contact, is there a lot of straining against the tight shorts that happens?

[Laughter]

Nicola: Well, that’s, that’s a really interesting way of putting it. Yes, there’s, there’s, there’s handballing, there’s marking, which is when they jump up and catch the ball, and lots of tackling.

Sarah: This, this sounds really very cool, and I’m sorry that we don’t get more of it here in the States. So with your books about the Aussie rules football, this is the, is this the first year of the women’s professional league?

Nicola: Actually, no. It first started last year, so the –

Sarah: So this is the second season.

Nicola: Second season of women’s, yes. And it actually started early 2017.

Sarah: That’s very cool! So now there’s a women’s professional league as well.

Nicola: Yeah!

Amy: Yeah, it’s also –

Nicola: Yeah, which is really good.

Amy: – been very popular.

Sarah: Oh, it has been! That’s super cool!

Amy: Everyone’s really got behind it in the country.

Nicola: Yeah, they have, and actually, they’ve, they’ve actually just played the grand final last weekend, and it was the Western Bulldogs versus the Brisbane Lions, and the Western Bulldogs won.

Amy: Boo!

Sarah: That would be –

Nicola: And, and it was in pouring, pouring rain. It was awful!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Ohhh, bummer! How many teams are there in the women’s league? Are there the same number of teams as in the men’s league?

Nicola: No.

Sarah: No?

Nicola: No, but, but actually what’s happening is each year they’re adding more and more into their league, so sort of we’re hoping it’ll eventually match up with the men’s league.

Sarah: And you said the response has been very positive, that people are really into it.

Nicola: Oh, yes, yeah. Well, I think even sort of, if you sort of bring it back down to school level, there are more and more girls who are playing Aussie rules even at schools now, which is really good.

Sarah: That is very cool. So how did this series come to be? Did you, did you sort of get the idea or have received the idea from, from your publisher and, like, yes, give me this book right away, I love this sport, this is going to be great?

Nicola: Yes, well, actually, I think Kate Cuthbert went to the, I think it’s ARRA, the Australian Romance Readers Association meeting I think sort of early last year and sort of had this idea for the series, so then I, I had a call from her saying she’d heard I was mad keen on Aussie rules and if I’d be interested in writing a book for the series, and I said, yes, I’d love to, thank you!

Amy: Yeah, it was, it was, it was definitely driven by Kate, who’s, you know, very excited about it, because it had such a huge response last year in Australia, you know, from just all quarters. There was a lot of support around for it, and I think that she really wanted to capitalize on that as well. You know, not only was it popular, but she, I think she’s a fan as well; I’m not sure. She emailed me and asked me when I could do it, ‘cause my schedule was quite full, and I said that I could do it, like, next year, as in this year, and – [laughs] – ‘cause I was supposed to write another book for her, and she’s like, well, what if you don’t write that book? When can you do it for me? So –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amy: – I ended up doing one coming in like, like the last book that came in, ‘cause I was desperately trying to finish other books, so she was keen to get it off the ground. She could see that there was a groundswell, and she really wanted to, you know, kind of capitalize on that and sort of give readers a, a way into the sport as well.

Sarah: So I want to start with, with Nic, because I know, I know, Nicola, that you have to, to go. Could you tell us – this is the very worst question to ask an author, so I apologize to everyone in advance – but could you tell us about your book, please, ‘cause I’m so excited to hear you talk about these books.

Nicola: Okay, well, like I said, mine’s called Game On, and it features Angie, who’s, who’s actually sort of just out of university, and she’s done a, like a sports agency/marketing course and is sort of looking to work in the industry, but of course her big dream is to play in the new Aussie rules league. So what happens is, she has a friend who gets her a tryout with the team, which is the Melbourne Muses, and of course she’s fantastic at it and gets picked, and then she actually finds out that the, the guy she meets sort of early on in the book who she has a very hot one-night stand with is actually the guy who’s a top sports agent.

Sarah: Ohhh dear!

Nicola And – yes – and he actually ends up being her new boss.

Sarah: Oh my.

Nicola: So there’s lots of sparks and antics, and his name’s Jaxon Flint, and he’s very hot.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Does he wear tight shorts?

Nicola: No, no, because he –

Sarah: Oh no! [Laughs]

Nicola: – he’s actually Australia’s top sporting agent. He’s not playing football.

Sarah: Ohhh!

Amy: He’s wearing suits.

Nicola: Yes, he’s wearing hot suits.

Amy: Yes. Tight, hot suits.

Nicola: Yes, that’s right.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Now, Amy, what about you? Could you tell me about your book, please?

Amy: Sure. So Fair Game is a story, it’s a friends-to-lovers story. Darcy, my heroine, is somebody who was a ballerina and was actually heading for a, a scholarship in the Royal Ballet in the, you know, in London, and at fifteen kind of grew thighs and boobs and so was no longer able to pursue that, so she went into soccer for a bit, and then she finally got into, to AFL and finally got picked for the, the team, and she’s been living with, she used to live with two guys, her ex and this guy called Levi, who is, does not wear tight clothes. He’s a very tall, man bun, yoga kind of, you know, loose pants kind of free spirit dude, and –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amy: – and she gets into the team, and Levi’s kind of been in love with her for a long time and was about to tell her, but then she got involved in the, in the team, and he didn’t want to kind of say anything with her, you know, sporting career just taking off, wanted to wait till after the season, and they find out that the, the new coach for the team is her ex.

Sarah: Ohhh!

Amy: So, yeah. So her ex is a bit skeevy and is trying to get her back, and Levi’s trying to be very patient and wait in the wings, but he’s also a professional sports massage therapist, so you know, when she gets injured, well –

Sarah: Oh man! What a shame!

Nicola: [Laughs]

Amy: I know, I know. He’s got great hands.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Oh, that’s brilliant. I love how you’ve taken the new setting of the, is it, so correct me, is it the women’s Australian football league, is that right? WAFL?

Nicola: Well –

Amy: That’s, I think it’s the AFWL, isn’t it? I think the actual –

Nicola: No, it’s the, no, it’s, it’s AFLW.

Sarah: AFLW, I’m sorry.

Amy: All right. The actual –

Nicola: Yep. Yep.

Amy: The actual real one is, yes.

Nicola: Yeah. Yes, that’s right. [Laughs]

Sarah: Now, when you were writing these stories, were you using actual teams, or did you make up teams?

Nicola: No, it was, it was not real teams. They were actually invented teams.

Sarah: I was going to say –

Amy: That was part of the fun.

Nicola: Yeah.

Sarah: [Laughs] So was there –

Amy: Inventing teams.

Sarah: – was there cross-book trash talking between you guys?

[Laughter]

Nicola: Amy?

Amy: [Laughs] We, we had, we had a little loop going that we were talking about all kind of things footy and AFL, because, see, I’m the only one of the three that’s not really, has, like, very minimal knowledge of, well, any sport, really, but football particularly, apart from knowing that they run around in very tight shorts. That was about my skill set where AFL was concerned, so there was a lot of back-and-forthing about, you know, technical terms for me and, and what I could and couldn’t do and, as far as, you know, football went on the team. Lot of trash talking. My team was called the Ban-, the team I had her play for was called the Banshees, which I loved. I loved that word.

Sarah: That’s a great team name!

Amy: I know. The Brisbane Banshees, yeah; it was like, look out, we’re coming. We’re women and we’re wailing. Yeah, I loved it.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I would wear the hell out of a sports jersey for a team called the Banshees. Like, that’s awesome!

Amy: [Laughs] Yeah! Yeah.

Nicola: Yeah, it’s very cool.

Sarah: So you had to make up the league and the teams and the, and a lot of aspects of the sport from different backgrounds of, Nicola, your being a very big footy fan, and then Amy, your not having much of a background in this at all. Was it a lot of fun to create that world?

Nicola: Oh yes. Yes, it was, and, and I think, I think part of the fun was sort of all of us bonding together and having a talk and saying, look, is, is this okay to include in the book, or is this not okay? And, yeah, it was good. It was fun.

Amy: It was fun. We all, I think we all had a, quite a good, you know, rapport and be able to have a, you know, a bit of a laugh about the different things that our characters were doing. And it, there is something about being able to – I, I mean, I guess you still have to operate within the, you know, the kind of rules and the laws of the game and the world of the game, but to sort of be able to, I guess it’s like, could be like, is it fantasy football, I suppose, but, like, you’re creating everything right from the, from the ground up.

Nicola: Yeah.

Sarah: And you get to add all the romance elements, which makes it way better than fantasy football.

Amy: Well, that’s, that’s true, and I think for me that’s, you know, any book where they’re at, sports rom-, it should actually read to be romance sport, because to me, that’s the biggest element of the book, so –

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely.

Amy: – kind of, yeah.

Sarah: Now, one of the things that I learned when doing some research was that some of the things that your characters deal with are really the challenge of being a professional athlete and balancing not only your work and your life – ‘cause, you know, work-life balance is a consistent thing for most humans who are alive – but you have work-life balance and then also being a professional athlete that, that – that comes with a lot of physical demands and expectations of health and, and all sorts of extra stuff. My question was actually, how did you tackle these ideas, and then I just looked at the question I wrote, and I thought, that was a terrible pun, so I want to apologize for Past Sarah’s question –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – asking how you tackled those issues, but how did you tackle those issues?

Nicola: Well, as, as far as Game On goes, I think because Angie is sort of working and living in that environment, I think it was a bit easier –

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Nicola: – for her, because, because of the fact that she’s playing the game, but then she’s just, you know, first job also being a sports agent for those playing in the game, so it just wasn’t as hard for her.

Sarah: Right.

Amy: And I think, Nic, with your background did it help having your, your kind of medical background, knowing that sort of stuff?

Nicola: Yeah, yeah, it did, but then I think too, I mean, I was quite conscious of not sort of trying to put too much of that into the book, and, and also because, ‘cause I know, I have felt, it was really, you know, I was very conscious of not putting too much of that in and really focusing on more the romance.

Amy: Yeah, I guess it was the same for me as well. I really concentrated on the – ‘cause I, you know, I felt like I fell down on that kind of supporting element of it. I did try to keep it sort of more about the romance, but I think also Darcy having a background, a professional sporting background anyway, and coming from ballet and, like a serious ballet background, and then, and then representative soccer and, so I think anybody who’s been any kind of professional athlete for a long time kind of, you know, is very attuned to and very aware of what they, what they’re putting in their body, and so those kinds of things, and of course having Levi being the kind of, you know, holistic kind of guy he is, he was kind of taking care of, you know, that sort of stuff for her a bit as well, which was nice to be able to sort of give her some support that way.

Sarah: One of the things that I was thinking while I was doing my research is that on one hand you have the idea that a lot of romances feature athlete heroes. They feature the, the male athlete. There’s a lot of professional male athletes in romance, almost as many billionaires and dukes, and Navy SEALs, we’ve got a lot of Navy SEALs, and a lot of professional athletes! And Special Forces generally. But then, I sort of was looking at all of the ideas of, of, you know, you have athlete heroes, and now you’re writing athlete heroines, which, for the genre, is, is a new thing. That’s kind of something that I haven’t encountered much except in the last few years, and I love it. I love reading –

Amy: Mm, it’s awesome.

Sarah: Yes! I, especially what you said about being conscious about what they put in their bodies? I love the body consciousness of an athlete heroine who has to think about her physical strength, and then the fact that it’s not one body type that embodies that strength. Like, it’s a, it’s a new headspace to be in.

Nicola: Absolutely.

Sarah: Did you, did you encounter that as well?

Amy: Sorry, I was waiting for Nic to talk. [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s all right.

Nicola: Sorry, I was waiting for you and slipped that one.

Amy: Oh, I just, what I notice most, and this probably isn’t going to answer your question, but just a comment that I noticed when looking at, watching the AFLW league play on the television, was how amazing their body shapes were. They all had really, you know, good musculature. You could tell that they, you know, really worked out, but it wasn’t about, you know, it wasn’t a beauty competition. It was, you know, serious athletes kind of doing the right thing, you know, for their bodies. They all looked really, really awesome. I was impressed with how representative I felt their bodies were of women just generally across the board.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah: You noticed that too, Nicola.

Nicola: Yes, I did, and I’d, yeah, sort of looking at the games, I think one thing you can really see is, like, just regardless of your height, weight, shape, they’re all obviously training really hard –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Nicola: – to be at this level, and yeah, are really, really fit.

Amy: But I also felt it was a, a bit of a challenge for me, and I think this might be, might go a bit to your question as well, because I’ve been writing rugby heroes for my other series for some time now, and I think to write a, a female sports, I was a bit worried writing – I wasn’t worried, but I think it’s, I think romance readers are so used to reading their athletes being male that I think it was a challenge to write a, you know, a, a fem-, do, do you lose some people ‘cause they’re like, no, I don’t want to read about a chick, you know, being the –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amy: – being the sports hero, so I felt that was a little bit of a, a challenge as well for me to be able to, you know, make a, a female athlete really empowering and gung ho and some, you know, a, a character or characters, all our characters that, you know, readers want to read about.

Sarah: You know, I can speak only for myself, but I love reading athlete heroines. I find it very affirming as a reader to have women characters who are thinking of their bodies as, almost as tools, as something that they work with and not against? I find that as a reader to be so enjoyable, to, to read a heroine who is looking at the, what her body does as part of her job and part of her strength. It’s a different relationship, and I really enjoy reading it, so I’m so excited that, that, you know, there’s more of these, and it’s so great!

Amy: Yay!

Sarah: So what were some of the similarities and differences to writing an athlete hero, or athlete heroine versus an athlete hero? What were some of the things that you noticed as you were writing that were unique to your, to your writing experience compared to past books. Were there other things that caught your attention? Romance heroes and heroines have a lot of commonalities across books, I think?

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Amy: Yeah.

Sarah: When you’re, when you’re writing a heroine who is a, a unique, as, as being a professional athlete, it’s, I think it’s different, and I’m not always able to articulate as a reader what the difference is, and I’m curious if you could identify it.

Nicola: Well, I think for me, yeah, because I, I’ve written a sporting hero in the past, and to me there, there really wasn’t a big difference, because, like I said earlier, like, both, so part of an elite sport, they’ve both got these goals and ambitions of where they’d like to be. Yeah, so as, as far as sort of having to think about major differences between them, I really can’t think of ‘em.

Amy: I think maybe the difference is not necessarily intrinsic but the, the external forces that revolve around male sport versus female sport, the politics concern, how much harder it is to, to, you know, get, actually have any kind of professional, you know, sport for women that pay their rights, their, you know, the, the television rights to it. All of those kind of things, I think, come to bear on that, that, that particular character and how, how they react to it. You know, it’s not as easy, you know, it’s not been easy for any of those female AFLW players to, to make it as it has been for, you know, a lot of the men that have been doing it for years. It’s been, you know, years and years and years just getting a, an actual professional, you know, team up. So I think –

Sarah: Right.

Amy: – I think they come, I think they’re a bit pluckier. I think they have to come from, you know, where they had to fight like women through all the a-, you know, throughout the ages had to do in whatever, you know, arena. They’ve had to fight harder to, to get there, to get recognized, so I think that can weigh in. It can be a positive thing; it could have made them more determined, or it could actually have a negative aspect on the character where they feel like they’ve got a bit of a chip on their shoulder, or – so I think there’s a lot of stuff that goes into the psyche of a female athlete that, you know, that men, male athletes don’t, you know, have no clue about, because they’re, you know, they have that privilege of being male to start with, so. I think maybe that does come into play, but I think as far as just writing a character, you just – and I think I touched on that bit before – I felt a bit of pressure trying to, you know, get over that, will a reader want to read a, a female sporting heroine as opposed to, to a male one, and how do I make that character so great, and again, maybe it goes back to, like, just giving them a really good hero. I mean, I don’t know the answer either, but –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amy: – yeah, it’s, yeah. I’m not, I don’t know if that answered your question, sorry. That just –

Sarah: No, it –

Amy: – rambling then. [Laughs]

Sarah: No, there, there is no one answer. One of the things that I, that I’m fascinated by is – in order to prepare for this interview, I did a, a whole lot of crash-course watching of, of AFL videos – you are very right about the shorts.

Amy: Women or men? All right, men. [Laughs]

Sarah: Both! Both, both, both, both.

Amy: Yeah.

Sarah: And, like, even, even your, your explanation, Nicola, about how the game is played and what’s happening, without any of that explanation, like, I didn’t watch a tutorial. I was just watching people running around on a field, and I was like, wow! This makes no sense, but it’s really compelling! [Laughs] I –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Was there anything while you were writing about this series and creating your own women’s league and, and creating this whole universe, was there anything that you learned about Aussie football that surprised you or that you thought was really interesting? Or, Nicola, do you know everything, and this was just like, oh, just let me at it. I’m ready to do this!

Amy: [Laughs]

Nicola: I think I do know everything.

[Laughter]

Amy: So I learn a lot.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Did you now?

Nicola: I mean, yeah. I think it’s, I think it’s funny because, I mean, like, I’ve been madly passionate about my team, which is North Melbourne Kangaroos, since I was about six, and so that’s a long, long, long time, because I’m quite old.

[Laughter]

Amy: Ohhh, Nic. I’m older than you, Nic. [Laughs]

Nicola: Oh, I don’t know!

[Laughter]

Amy: I learnt just kind of, you know, the basics, I guess. I think I had put some scoring in my book, and when – ‘cause I got, Cath and Nic read, we all read each other’s books, and I especially wanted them to read mine just for, you know, factual stuff, and I think Cath pointed out that I, I’d scored the game really high, and she said, oh, the women, the women’s score at matches don’t tend to score that high, so that’s probably not right, so little things like that I picked up a lot about.

Sarah: You mentioned earlier that, that you were thinking, you know, oh, is, are readers going to embrace an athlete heroine, or are your readers going to be into a, a heroine who’s a professional sports player? Was it also a challenge to write about a very specific Australian sport for a global audience?

Nicola: Yeah, well, well, I think in, in my book, like I said, it’s, I mean, it’s more sort of focused on –

Sarah: Right.

Nicola: – Jaxon and Angie, so I, I’ve used sort of them as the main focus and just sort of added in the actual Aussie rules as, you know, part of the plot, so it’s not been like a massive sort of push, push, push because I was aware that people overseas would think, you know, what, what is this game?

Amy: [Laughs] Who are these people? What is this game?

[Laughter]

Nicola: Yeah.

Amy: It’s like cricket!

Nicola: Exactly!

[Laughter]

Amy: Oh, what do you mean they play for intervals? That’s insane!

[Laughter]

Amy: I, I felt that I just, I didn’t really think it would get an international audience, to be honest. I felt that I was actually mostly writing it for the Australian audience. I knew there, there would be people, you know, that would read it overseas, but I didn’t really think it would be, you know, particularly huge. Now, I felt like maybe I’m wrong. I don’t want to put words into Kate’s mouth; I don’t know, but I think maybe that’s where she thought the focus might be as well too. I don’t know what you feel about that, Nic –

Nicola: Mm, yeah, I think so.

Amy: – but, yeah. So –

Nicola: Yeah, I think so.

Amy: – I kind of didn’t think about it, you know, you know, in the global context. It was a bit like, just got to write the story and then, you know, if people read it from outside, well, you know, it might be confusing, but again, it is all about the romance, so at least romance readers, at least, understand, you know, that part, so.

Nicola: Yeah, that’s right.

Sarah: Can I ask what you’re working on now? What are you each working on for your next books?

Nicola: For me, I’m currently writing for the new Harlequin Dare series –

Sarah: Ooh.

Nicola: – the hot and spicy one. Yeah, so I’ve, I’ve just handed in my fifth book for them, and –

Amy: Fifth book, wow!

Nicola: Yeah, time flies!

[Laughter]

Nicola: And I’m working on book six for them. It’s fun.

Amy: I’m working on, I’m working on a bunch of things. I’m just finishing up my rugby series, which has another two books to go, so there’s that, and I’m working on a single title set in Colorado, in Denver, so that’s why I’m extra excited to be going to, to Denver in a few months.

Sarah: Yes!

Nicola: Woohoo!

Amy: And I, I’m also going to write a Dare book, but that’s a bit towards the end of the year, and so I’m going to make that my NaNo-, going to make that my NaNoWriMo project.

Nicola: Oh, that’s exciting!

Amy: Well, that –

Nicola: I didn’t know that!

Amy: Well –

Nicola: That’s –

Amy: – I get – yeah –

Nicola: – that’s an, an exclusive!

Amy: They – an exclusive! You heard it first here.

Nicola: Woohoo!

[Laughter]

Amy: But they did actually ask me to write for it at the, you know, back in the beginning and, and having been a part of a, as you know, Nic, a Harlequin line that went defunct and how devastating that was, I was a little bit wary, so, yeah, looks like I should be able to squeeze it in at the end of this year in NaNoWriMo, so, yeah, I’m going to give it a whirl, see –

Nicola: Oh, really?

Amy: – see what happens?

Nicola: I think, yeah, I think your voice would be really perfect for Dare, so woohoo again!

[Laughter]

Amy: Thank you!

Sarah: You guys are just great to listen to. I’m just going to stop talking and let you encourage each other, ‘cause it’s –

Amy: We’re just a, we’re just like a, we’re a mutual admiration society.

Sarah: Right, I’m just going to –

Nicola: [Laughs]

Sarah: – this is very lovely. Nic, could you tell us a little about your, your upcoming Dare book?

Amy: Yeah! It’s Sweet Thing; yeah, it’s out at the moment?

Nicola: That was actually out in March, and it’s set in a bakery in Sydney, and the –

Amy: Nice.

Nicola: Well, you know what? I had to do lots of firsthand sampling of cakes to write this book.

Amy: Oh no, did you?

[Laughter]

Nicola: It was so hard, but it was very, very important.

Amy: I think so. Someone had to take one for the team, though, Nic, so, you know.

Nicola: Oh, look, it, like I said, you know, if you, if you’re, you are writing, you have to make it very, very real –

Sarah: Yes!

Nicola: – so I had to go to lots of yummy places.

Sarah: You have to write what you know, and you have to know your pastry.

Nicola: Exactly! Well, actually –

Amy: And there’s all those yummy, all those yummy bakeries in Melbourne as well.

Nicola: Oh, they are amazing, so yes.

Amy: Mmm.

Nicola: Yes, I sort of had to, had to do that. So, yeah, so, so with Abby, she’s newly divorced, and she’s having a big life change, and she wants to be a pastry chef, and she ends up working alongside Tanner, who’s the, the pastry shop’s owner’s brother, who’s quite dark and dangerous.

Sarah: Oooh!

Nicola: And lots and lots of sparks fly in the –

Amy: Ooh. Not in the bakery, I hope.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Nicola: Well, mmm.

Amy: Oh, in the bakery, huh?

Nicola: I think, I think, I think you have to read Sweet Thing to find out about that. [Laughs]

Sarah: Ohhh! So I’ve heard things about buttercream icing.

Nicola: [Laughs]

Sarah: Berries –

[Laughter]

Nicola: No comment.

Amy: I’ve just written a baker as well!

Sarah: Really!

Nicola: Oh, did you!

Amy: Yeah, a female baker in, in my, in the, the sixth rugby book that’s out in June or I think July some time, and she’s a baker as well, and there are, there is frosting going in places that frosting possibly should not ever go, but –

Sarah: Ohhh!

Nicola: [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s okay, that’s part of the fantasy of romance.

Nicola: [Laughs]

Amy: Yeah, sex with food, yes, absolutely.

Sarah: Yes.

Nicola: Yes.

Sarah: And reading about all that food.

Amy: I, I made a bit of a specialty at a, I made a bit of a specialty out of using food in a lot of my special sexy scenes, so I thought, hey, she’s a baker, why not.

Sarah: Right? And hey, if you need a workshop to propose for Romance Writers of Australia, you could be like, let’s do sex and food.

[Laughter]

Sarah: This has been –

Amy: And just bring lots of yummy food for people to try.

Sarah: Right? This is about –

Nicola: Yes, that’s right.

Sarah: – food pornography.

[Laughter]

Amy: The nurse in me says, perhaps you shouldn’t put candy floss in that particular part or organ.

[Laughter]

Nicola: For external use only.

Sarah: Yes.

Amy: Yes!

[Laughter]

Sarah: So I always ask my guests what it is that they’re reading that they’d like to recommend. Nic, would you, Nicola, would you like to go first?

Nicola: Yeah, sure. I’ve actually just finished an Abbi Glines book, and I actually love her books because she writes very hot, sexy heroes, so that was Boys South of the Mason Dixon, and there’s, there’s five brothers in this book, and they really, they’re super, super hot, and real. There’s, there’s lots of fighting and swearing and picking up women and, yeah, it was great. Loved it.

[Laughter]

Amy: I love that criterion.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Amy do you have any books to suggest?

Amy: I do, actually! I have quite a, I have quite a few. I just would like to recommend generally the, the Dare line, you know, as a general kind of thing. I’m just reading Jackie Ashenden’s Ruined, and it’s really good, and Clare Connelly’s Off Limits has been great as well, but I also have two other, two other books I want to recommend, if that’s okay.

Sarah: Always.

Amy: I, I, I have fallen in love with Eve Dangerfield, who is an Australian author who lives in Melbourne, and I absolutely loved her Something Borrowed. She’s got just a unique, quirky, funny – she does, like, BDSM light, but funny, just awesome.

Sarah: Ooh!

Amy: And of course Ainslie Paton as well; I just read her The Love Experiment, which I enjoyed very, very much.

Sarah: Awesome! Now, may I ask you guys about the Dare line? What do you like about writing for, writing in Dare?

Amy: Well, Nic’s writing for the moment, so you go for that, Nic.

Nicola: Yeah, I think, well, look, I mean, I think, like, I’ve written I think forty, forty-two books for Harlequin over the years, and writing for Harlequin Dare has been very, very different because it’s just so free, as in, you know, you can swear, you can have really, really –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Yes! Awesome!

Nicola: Yeah.

Amy: Actually, that’s what I, that’s what I asked my editor when she said, do, you know, we’re having this line; do you want to write for it? And I was like, can I say fuck?

[Laughter]

Amy: That was my, that was my first question. [Laughs]

Nicola: You can actually say –

Sarah: That’s a perfectly legitimate question!

Nicola: You can actually say, oh, a lot worse than, than that, so.

[Laughter]

Amy: Uh-huh. [Laughs]

Nicola: I found it really, really fun, because, you know, you can write in first person, which I personally love, and it’s just been –

Sarah: Oh, cool!

Nicola: It’s, it’s actually free! It’s actually really freeing to sort of, I just let, let the muse go, and it’s been really great.

Amy: That scares the absolute bejesus out of me, writing in first person. I don’t think I could do that.

Nicola: Oh, real-, oh, I love it! I absolutely love it, so, yeah, it’s been huge fun, absolutely great.

[music]

Sarah: So that was part one of my interview with Amy Andrews and Nicola Marsh. There’s a third author for the first three books in the Women of W.A.R. series. Her name is Catherine Evans, and we were having trouble connecting her to the conversation that we had, so I connected with her later so that she could also talk about her book. So now here is part two of the authors of the Women of W.A.R.

[music]

Catherine Evans: I’m Catherine Evans, and I write Australian rural romance, so it’s contemporary romance in a farming setting. I’ve got an ag science background, so I’m working on that write what you know thing. And I also have an alter ego who writes erotic romance and erotica.

Sarah: Very cool.

Catherine: And my – it is, yeah. [Laughs] And my book is called Long Game, and it’s part of that W.A.R. series, and my heroine and hero have both grown up in the country and had to move to the city to play football.

Sarah: Oh!

Catherine: So, yep, so the hero is the, the, he’s older than the heroine, and he and her older brother have been best friends.

Sarah: Oh, so it’s a brother’s best friend’s romance.

Catherine: Yes, yes. And a fish out of water as well. Yep.

Sarah: Oh, there’s a lot to talk about.

[Laughter]

Sarah: So for, for listeners who are not familiar, what are some of the things that make a rural-Australian-set romance unique? ‘Cause I know you write rural romance, and you live out in the country, right?

Catherine: Oh, I’m living on the coast at the moment, but I did live in the country, yeah. So I guess it’s similar to the Westerns, the American Westerns?

Sarah: Ah!

Catherine: In that, you know, it’s kind of like the cowboy romance, so, so the people grow up on farms and have that down-to-earth connection –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Catherine: – and, and, and they’re hands-on, practical people.

Sarah: I have a theory that – and I know this is definitely true of Australia and some very challenging parts of the United States – I have a theory that when the land you live on can kill you if you’re stupid, it develops a very unique attitude towards life.

Catherine: [Laughs] Yes. I think that’s –

Sarah: And I mean, I know, I know all of Australia is actively trying to kill you. Like, every part of the country would really like to make you dead.

Catherine: [Laughs] I don’t think that’s really true.

[Laughter]

Catherine: I grew up –

Sarah: Look, I know about drop bears, okay? I know all about drop bears. You can’t fool me.

Catherine: Oh. Then you’re right, and you’ll survive out here.

[Laughter]

Catherine: How ‘bout bunyips? Have you heard about the bunyips? [Laughs]

Sarah: No, I have not heard about the bunyip. Please –

Catherine: Ohhh.

Sarah: – please tell me this is not something I have to worry about in the United States.

Catherine: No, it’s sort of like drop bears, if you’re right.

Sarah: Okay, good.

[Laughter]

Catherine: Well, I grew up in the city, like in Sydney –

Sarah: Right.

Catherine: – and, and my dream from when I was a little kid was to move to the country and own a horse, and, and I’ve got three younger sisters, and one of my sister was to move to London and have a white Christmas. So within a month of each other, my sister and I, she went to London, and I went to Wagga Wagga, which is in the Riverina, so sort of the southwest of New South Wales –

Sarah: Right.

Catherine: – and she had her white Christmas, and I had, I was given a horse, and we, we both lived out our dreams, which is pretty cool.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Catherine: But I, I knew nothing about the country except what I’d read in books, and so I had a pretty steep learning curve, because I was working on farms where I was supposed to know things – [laughs] – and so I made a lot of really stupid mistakes, and, and I was still alive, so that’s a plus. So it’s not really out to kill you; it’s out to teach you. If you ask questions, everybody in the bush will help you.

Sarah: Yes.

Catherine: If you pretend to know everything and don’t give them any credit for what they know, then I think you end up in a lot of trouble.

Sarah: Yeah, very likely. [Laughs]

Catherine: Mm-hmm. [Laughs]

Sarah: I, I have noticed that, like I said, when, when, when you live in a place where, you know, taking a wrong turn can kill you –

Catherine: Yeah.

Sarah: – you, it tends to create a very laid-back but also very honest –

Catherine: Yeah.

Sarah: – community. So –

Catherine: Yeah, very much.

Sarah: You have written other rural romances too, is that correct?

Catherine: Only, yeah, only one – [laughs] – that’s published.

Sarah: Right.

Catherine: Yeah.

Sarah: Now, with the characters in your, in your book, in – I just had the cover up in front of me, so now I’m super embarrassed; don’t mind me –

Catherine: Oh, Long Game.

Sarah: Long Game – so I have this horrible problem in that I remember cover images –

Catherine: Their abs? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, I was just going to say, the one with the abs. Holy abs on your cover. Like, there’s so much abs on these covers, they’re incredible! Did you open the cover and go, whoa?

Catherine: Yeah, we all did.

[Laughter]

Catherine: We were all hoping that, that we got strong women on the covers, and then when we got them, we were all like, oh, wah!

Sarah: Right?

Catherine: And, and then we all went, ohhh! Actually, Cath, you’ve got the best, and I was like, yep! Thank you!

[Laughter]

Sarah: You really do.

Catherine: But the more I look at all three of them, the more I like all of them. [Laughs]

Sarah: But you’ve got some seriously good-looking, beautiful women on the cover, and they look like they could kill me with one finger!

Catherine: [Laughs] I know!

Sarah: It’s incredible! So –

Catherine: It’s great! Escape do really, really good covers.

Sarah: Oh, they really do. They’re really stunning.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: So my, my question was actually going to be about the fact that your characters in Long Game or Long Abs, however you want to call it –

Catherine: [Laughs]

Sarah: – in my brain it’s Long Abs – [laughs] – you have characters who lived in a small town in rural Australia and then moved to the big city.

Catherine: To Sydney, yep.

Sarah: Right.

Catherine: Yeah.

Sarah: So in your book, I heard from Kate Cuthbert, your editor, that one of the things that she really liked about the book was that even though your hero is also a football player, only the heroine is shown playing sports in the book. What, that was a really interesting choice; what led to that decision? He’s sort of like in a supporting role, and she’s like, yep, I’m on the field; get out of the way.

Catherine: I think reality made that happen. [Laughs] ‘Cause when I –

Sarah: I like reality; I’m a fan.

Catherine: Yeah. When I, I kind of like basing, you know, I’ve got a science background, so everything I write has to be grounded in fact somehow, even if it’s only my own facts, and the, the girls’ Aussie rules in Australia finishes before the boys start, or the grand final is just as the boys start –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Catherine: – so, so I wanted to keep that happening, but I also didn’t want his character to overshadow her?

Sarah: Right.

Catherine: ‘Cause the story was about the girls playing football, and when I started, I started writing, and the guy wasn’t going to play football, but then I realized the story I wanted to tell was the difference between male and female sport, so I had to change him a bit to make him a footballer, so, yeah, so it’s kind of, you know, a couple of things that came together. So, yeah, there was no conscious decision not to have him play sport. It wasn’t really something I thought about.

[Laughter]

Catherine: It just happened.

Sarah: And the heroine – well, that’s cool! It’s cool that it just happens. Now, the heroine in your book, she’s got to deal with the, the idea that they’re in two, they’re, they’re, they’re competitors, but not in the same league.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And they’re both athletes.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: They, and, and then on top of that, they have the usual tension of their friendship turning into a real relationship and, and figuring out what to, you know, tell her brother. How, what were some of your favorite scenes in writing these two characters?

Catherine: Mm, that’s a good question. I think the first, the opening scene where they meet up at Central Station was the one that came into my head that kind of propelled the story, where, you know, she hasn’t seen him for ages, and he calls out her name. She’s not really expecting him, and then she flies at him, she flies into his arms kind of thing, and –

Sarah: Aw!

Catherine: – you know, and so that was one of my favorite scenes, that kind of, that reconnection? And then making him vulnerable, I kind of liked that.

[Laughter]

Catherine: I like making heroes – you know, he, he’s, he’s a bit jaded. I think men’s sports throw a lot of money at the guys, but I’m not sure that they have a lot to do except keep themselves fit, so they live in kind of a bubble –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Catherine: – of their own importance, and I think for some people that’s got to be something that jades over time. You know, you get kind of lost in, in that, and, and being a country guy who is used to doing stuff all the time, like, I imagine sometimes that lifestyle doesn’t suit people, so that’s what I wanted to show, that he was kind of lost, and she was this really propelled, practical girl who was going out, she was getting a job ‘cause she had to support herself while she lived in Sydney and played football and was only paid hardly anything at all, and that he was kind of out of touch with that whole, you know, where you’ve got to be busy and make things fit and, and he kind of had this crazy life where, you know, he really wasn’t happy, but it was pretty good life, so he wasn’t going to change it?

Sarah: That creates a good amount of tension.

Catherine: Yeah. And, and kind of makes him vulnerable, to have to realize that and realize that, you know, maybe he hasn’t got everything he wants.

Sarah: No. Now, you mentioned that you like to make the heroes vulnerable. What do you think are some of the key elements to writing a scene or writing a character and showing their vulnerability?

Catherine: Well, I find it really hard, you know. [Laughs] Although it’s a bit that I love, it’s the hardest thing in the world to do, I think, and so I, I usually have to go back time and time and time again and just keep layering in, you know, peeling off and putting on until I can get it to, to be right? Like there’s a scene I wrote where he’s had an incident – well, there’s a lot of sports people in Australia have public incidents of –

Sarah: Right.

Catherine: – being an idiot, and –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Catherine: – I’m sure that – [laughs] – I’m sure that it’s the same across the world, but –

Sarah: Yeah, I think it does tend to happen that way.

Catherine: Yeah. And so he’s had one of these scenes, and it hasn’t been made public, but for him it’s, you know, it’s really ripping at him, and, but he doesn’t want to talk about it, but he can’t cope. He can’t cope in a pub scene, even in his home town of Grong Grong –

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Catherine: – and then he has to tell her about it, and she’s kind of really matter-of-fact and, you know, so? Big deal! You know, you looked after it; what’s the deal? So she doesn’t quite understand his, you know, public persona and how much under the spotlight sports people are because they earn so much and are so much worshipped and put up as heroes, so he has to open up and expose himself to her, and so that scene probably, I probably went back about fifteen times trying to get – [laughs] – just that little section right, just because the first time you, you know, you blurt out stuff; and then it’s got to be a bit more crafted; and then, you know, you haven’t quite got the emotion there; and then, you know, they’re just not opening up enough and so yeah. I just keep going back and keep going back until, until it kind of sounds like what I want it to sound like. Don’t really, don’t really have a plan or anything when I write; I just sit down and try to think like the characters and try to let it flow out of me and think of the emotion and try to get that into words? It’s, I don’t, there’s no real, I don’t, I don’t sit and plan it or anything. I just write out words, and then I go, oh, look at that! How interesting. How am I going to make that work?

[Laughter]

Catherine: Sometimes it ends up in the, you know, that file on your computer of, this was a good idea, but it didn’t work, and – [laughs] – other times it, you know, if you keep niggling at it, you can get it somewhere close to what you want.

Sarah: Has that always been your, your writing process, to just sort of keep going and go, oh, look at that! Look what I discovered?

Catherine: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Catherine: Yeah.

Sarah: If it works, don’t mess with it.

Catherine: [Laughs] Yeah, I have tried to plan, and I’ve tried all sorts of things, but it hasn’t really worked. If I plan, I kind of go, yep, well, that’s done, finished.

Sarah: Yep.

Catherine: But if I keep, you know, tweaking away I can, yeah, I keep going, whereas if I, you know, plan out the whole story, I go, all right, they’re happy. Finished. [Laughs] She’s in a good – oh, well. If it works, it works.

[Laughter]

Sarah: So are you an Aussie rules football fan? Are you, are you following the women’s league at all?

Catherine: Yeah. I, I have been following the women’s league, both this year and last year, and I’m somewhere between Nicola and Amy. I appreciate the tight shorts and the shoulders like Amy –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Catherine: – and, but I don’t, I don’t have a favorite team, and Aussie rules wasn’t really, isn’t – when I grew up in Sydney, no, there were no teams in Sydney?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Catherine: When I went to Wagga, I was shocked that Wagga’s halfway between Sydney and Melbourne, and Aussie rules was as important to the town as rugby league, which is Sydney’s game.

Sarah: Right.

Catherine: And rugby union as well, so, so yeah. So I kind of, I used to watch the grand final to appreciate the physiques –

[Laughter]

Catherine: – ‘cause in Aussie rules, they don’t have sleeves, and in rugby league they wear sleeves, so –

Sarah: Well, that’s just criminal!

Catherine: – you’ve got a whole – yeah.

Sarah: That’s just unacceptable! [Laughs]

Catherine: Exactly! Yeah. So you had to watch for that. [Laughs] But the girls, I’ve, I, I’m really useless at sport, but it’s one of the things I love, so I’ve played a lot of it really badly, and when I was a kid I always wanted to play football, and girls didn’t play football –

Sarah: Right.

Catherine: – and I’m sure I was the bane of my mother’s life, ‘cause everything I wanted to do, girls didn’t do, and – [laughs] – and there was no reason for that! You know, I kept saying, but why? Why can’t I? I don’t understand, and she’d say, that’s just how the world is, you know?

Sarah: Well, that’s not fun!

Catherine: And – no, I didn’t really like that, so –

[Laughter]

Catherine: – as I got older, in high school I was allowed to play cricket and soccer and hockey, so I was like, okay, that’s good, and then when I went to uni I started playing basketball with some girls, and they were really good sports people. I don’t know how I ended up in the team, but some of them played, some of them played for the state and Australia in cricket and soccer. Girls’ sport was very much an elite part of society that didn’t mix with mainstream society. It was – yeah. So, so female sport, you know, at a top level, was very different to male sport at the top level.

Sarah: Right.

Catherine: So to see in my lifetime that come together, so now we’ve got girls playing sport at, at a top level and seeing it on TV, it’s like, it’s like, for me, it’s the best thing in the world to see that.

[Laughter]

Catherine: It’s like all my childhood dreams coming true, and I’m too old to play, but I’m going to watch every second of it.

Sarah: That must have made it very fun to write a story set in that world.

Catherine: Oh yeah. It was, yeah. As soon as Kate Cuthbert rang and asked, and she said, are you interested in writing a women’s Aussie rules book? And I went, yes!

[Laughter]

Catherine: Yes, I am! And she said, oh! I’ve got a whole spiel here, and I’m like, oh, you don’t need to. Nope, I’m in.

Sarah: Thanks for the spiel, but I’m good!

Catherine: Yeah, that’s it. I’ve got ideas, right. Done. [Laughs] And then she told me who I was writing with; that was a bit daunting, but anyway.

Sarah: Was it a little intimidating to write with two authors who have, have such, such a, a long publishing history?

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah, if I thought about that, it was. But –

[Laughter]

Sarah: But I thought about it. Thanks, now, now that you’ve mentioned it, sure, yes, absolutely!

Catherine: I know! ‘Cause they’ve both got, like, you know, sixty or something plus books, and this is my second, so that –

[Laughter]

Catherine: – that’s kind of daunting.

Sarah: A little bit.

Catherine: But I’m really lucky, ‘cause in Romance Writers of Australia, like, I’ve met them at conferences before, but with Amy, she was the president when I was on the conference committee some years ago, and so I’ve worked with her as, like, a person, as an equal, you know, doing stuff, you know, getting in and doing the hard yards, so I knew, I know what she’s like, I know who she is –

Sarah: Yeah.

Catherine: – I know that I can work with her; I know that it’s lots of fun. So as long as I kept focusing on the person and not their writing record, I was okay. But every now and again, that, you know, sixty-plus books would come up and, and my, the little devil on my shoulder would go, what are you doing with these two?

[Laughter]

Catherine: You so should not be here! [Laughs]

Sarah: But at the same time, you know, you’re, you’re part of the series. Your book is part of the series as well.

Catherine: That’s it! Yeah, I know, and that’s, you know, it’s an amazing opportunity that, that you just have to grab and run with. I mean, you can’t afford to sit there and think anything. [Laughs] You’ve just got to write and hold your own and, and thank the gods and Kate that you got there!

Sarah: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Catherine: And, like, Amy and Nicola are fantastic. They never once made me feel anything –

Sarah: Yeah.

Catherine: – different to either of them, so, you know, I think that’s the beauty of writing groups and knowing people is that these opportunities come up, and you don’t have to be completely and utterly intimidated by them. Just a little bit in your bad self. [Laughs]

Sarah: What are you working on right now? Are you working on a new book?

Catherine: Working on a really old book that I can’t get right at the moment. [Laughs] Way back in 2009 I wrote this book, and I wrote it all wrong. It’s in first person in four people’s heads, so it was a bit confusing, so I’ve been working on that off and on for, oh, ever since trying to get it right. So I think I’m up to my fourth – it’s under contract, but I’m onto rewrite number four, and hopefully I might get it right this time.

[Laughter]

Catherine: But every time you do something, you learn more, so.

Sarah: Absolutely.

Catherine: So hopefully it’s getting closer to right.

Sarah: Well, the question I always ask at every interview is if you have any books to recommend to, to people who will be listening. Do you have any books that you want to recommend?

Catherine: Yes, I do! And –

Sarah: Oh, bring it on!

Catherine: I’ve brought on some Australian ones for you.

Sarah: Oh!

Catherine: And a romance and a couple of not-romances. Is that all right?

Sarah: Absolutely all right! Please tell me all the things.

Catherine: All right. So I just read Marion Lennox’s book that’s in, a Rita finalist, The Billionaire’s Christmas Baby, and it’s really Australian; it’s really lovely. I really liked it, and Marion Lennox always seems to write really down-to-earth Australian characters, which I really like. And then I work with two Australian authors, you know, who help me, my problem scenes or stories, so Ainslie Paton and Jenny Jones, they both write really good stories. Ainslie’s a huge contemporary, and Jenny writes quirky rural romances, so Western-type styles.

Sarah: Ooh!

Catherine: And then in the non-romance books, one of the things that I keep picking up in, you know, when I sit down and start writing a story, is I’m always writing about someone who’s lost someone –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Catherine: – so, like, grief, and it must be something I can’t understand in my head, I think, but I found an Australian author called Eliza Henry Jones, and she writes these amazing stories about grief.

Sarah: Oh!

Catherine: So she’s got three called, one’s In the Quiet, another’s called Ache, and then she’s just done a YA called P Is for Pearl, and they’re all about loss and grief, so.

Sarah: Oh wow!

Catherine: Yep. And then another thing I like is really experimental kind of different literary styles? So there’s an Australian one called Storyland, and it’s by Catherine McKinnon, and mmm, it’s, I don’t even know how to explain it, but – [laughs] – it’s a book where everything’s linked to place rather than to characters? So it’s a story that’s set over, I think it’s about four hundred years, and –

Sarah: Oh wow!

Catherine: – and there’s, like, five segments that take you up a hill and then five segments that take you back down? Yeah. It’s really quite, it’s very different, but it just, I don’t think I’ve recovered from reading it yet.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Do you have book hangover? I love book hangover.

Catherine: Oh yeah. It, it’s, yeah. Especially when the structure is so different to anything else that you’ve read. That’s, like, the best book hangover, I think. How did they do that? Why did they do that? How does that work? Yeah.

Sarah: And then you –

Catherine: It’s awesome.

Sarah: – you, you look at it as a writer and think, how did you technically do that?

Catherine: Yes! How did you take me on that journey? [Laughs] Because this Storyland, it, it, you know, as I read, I was reading – I think I read it in a whole night, ‘cause I couldn’t put it down, too, but –

Sarah: Oh, Bad Decisions Book Club.

Catherine: Yes, very bad.

[Laughter]

Catherine: But it took you up a hill and then took you back down, so you reached, like, some sort of an emotional peak in the middle of the book, and then you came back, and you’re like, ah, okay.

[Laughter]

Catherine: But, and, and I don’t know, I still don’t know how she did that. That, yeah. I wish I knew, ‘cause it was a really phenomenal experience to go on that kind of a journey in a book so quickly. Yeah. When it wasn’t, like, normal. [Laughs] Wasn’t a normal story structure; it’s not like a three-act structure or anything.

Sarah: Right.

Catherine: It’s structured like a mountain, I kept thinking. Yeah.

Sarah: That’s really interesting!

Catherine: Mmm. Very, yeah. Went from historical to dystopian as well –

Sarah: Whoa!

Catherine: – like, within – yeah! Up this mountain – [laughs]

Sarah: Down that other –

Catherine: Yeah!

Sarah: Wow.

Catherine: Yeah. Very, very interesting story.

Sarah: That’s very cool! Well, is there anything you would like to add or say before we go?

Catherine: No. Just if you’re writing, enjoy it, I think!

[Laughter]

Sarah: That’s good advice, actually. Do you have advice for anyone who’s an aspiring writer, considering that you’re, you’re now published? Do you have any advice for someone who’s still struggling to get published?

Catherine: It’s probably the same advice my mum told me when I was a kid was get in and volunteer. You know, it’s, sometimes it’s not what you know, it’s who you know. [Laughs] And I think that’s something I’ve always done. I really enjoy doing it, but it, it is what’s paid off for my writing as well. You know, getting involved in writers’ groups or with people. You just don’t know who you’ll meet or, you know, how that’s going to help you in the future or, you know, if, if I hadn’t have met Amy and Nicola before, I think I might have, you know, floundered doing this or needed more help from them, you know, whereas, you know, I think because I knew them and I could get past that intimidation, then, then you can write your story and hold your own and do your own thing, rather than be, you know, a bit swept up in that, oh my God, oh my God – [laughs] – writing with people I used to read.

[Laughter]

Catherine: You know?

Sarah: Yes, it’s very, I know exactly that feeling. I know that one.

Catherine: Is that, yeah. Do you get that feeling?

Sarah: I do. If I’m talking to someone or if I’m interviewing them –

Catherine: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – my, I, I like to think of it as my inner thirteen-year-old? She is –

Catherine: Yes.

Sarah: – generally not playing it cool, and I have to keep her quiet, because inside I’m like, oh my God, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, ohmygosh, ohmygosh, ohmygosh, ohmygosh – oh yeah, happens to me all the time. All the time.

Catherine: Oh, does it? Oh good! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, it’s not just you. [Laughs]

Catherine: Oh, it happens so often, and I have to think, just chill, just chill. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep, and meanwhile, your inner thirteen-year-old is like, oh my gosh!

Catherine: I know! Should I ask them for their autograph? [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, I know! I know exactly that feeling.

Catherine: I know. It’s an interesting one, isn’t it –

Sarah: It is, really.

Catherine: – that you never grow out of that inner thirteen-year-old.

Sarah: No, you never, I, I don’t think you ever, as long as you appreciate what skill it takes to make something creative, you never really grow out of your awe and sense of wonder that it can be done, and then you meet the person who gave you those, that experience?

Catherine: Yes!

Sarah: I don’t think you ever grow out of that. At least I hope not. I don’t think I want to.

Catherine: No, and then if they’re – no, I don’t want to either. And then if they’re, like, really cool people to, it just makes it worse!

Sarah: Yes! [Laughs]

Catherine: Or better. You know? You’re just like, oh God, they’re even better than I thought! [Laughs]

[music]

Sarah: And that brings me to the end of this episode. I hope you enjoyed all of these interviews. I want to thank Catherine and Amy and Nicola and Kate for the interviews and for the time and for these books. I hope you will go out and check them out. They are really fun. Seriously, y’all, the covers, really. Wow! [Laughs]

This week’s episode was brought to you by Hot and Badgered by Shelly Laurenston. The wait is over! New York Times bestselling author Shelly Laurenston returns to the shapeshifters genre and the animal her readers have been clamoring for since the release of her fan-favorite novel Bite Me: the indomitable honey badger. These outrageously snarky honey badger sisters are fearless and flawless and fierce. What happens after a honey badger meets a soft-hearted grizzly bear by barging into his hotel room naked from the balcony while fleeing armed gunmen? Find out in Hot and Badgered by New York Times bestselling author Shelly Laurenston! Hot and Badgered is on sale now wherever books are sold and at kensingtonbooks.com.

This week’s podcast, as always, will be transcribed and compiled by garlicknitter – thank you, garlicknitter! [You’re welcome, as always! – gk] This week’s transcript is brought to you by Whiskey Sharp: Jagged by Lauren Dane. Vicktor Orlov took one look at the wary gaze and slow-to-trust personality of the deliciously sexy and fascinating Rachel Dolan and knew he wanted more than just a casual friendship. But as a natural protector, he also knew bossiness and overprotective maneuvering would push her away rather than draw her close. He’ll use every tool in his easygoing, laid-back arsenal to convince her to take a chance on them. Rachel’s flourishing career as a tattoo artist has brought color back into a life previously damaged by a series of bad choices and violence. She knows she can trust Vic—it’s herself she’s not sure of. She doesn’t want to be caged or controlled, doesn’t want to be protected so much she has no ability to make her own choices. So when Vic finally drops all pretenses of “just friends” and focuses his careful affection and irresistible seduction on her, Rachel knows that she’s falling hard for the laid-back man she’s discovered has a relentlessly steel spine when it comes to her, and she can’t resist. You can find Whiskey Sharp: Jagged on sale now wherever books are sold, and thanks to Lauren Dane for sponsoring the transcript this month.

We have a podcast Patreon, and I would like to humbly ask if you are interested in supporting the show that you take a look! The podcast Patreon is at patreon.com/SmartBitches. You make a monthly pledge for as little as one dollar a month, and you make a deeply appreciated difference in the show. Your direct support means the show continues, I can transcribe older episode transcripts, and the show continues to improve, which is really wonderful. I have a lot of interviews scheduled for the next few weeks, and I often ask the Patreon community for question ideas too, so if you’re interested, I hope you’ll make a pledge and join us.

I also want to thank some of the Patreon folks personally, so to Jenni, Elena, Kari, Angie, and Gail, thank you so much for being a part of our community.

And if you would like to support the podcast in other ways, I’m sure you know what they are if you’re a podcast listener. Leaving a review makes a very big difference in helping other people discover us. However or wherever you listen, rating, reviewing, telling a friend, subscribing: that all makes a difference. And if you’re hanging out with me each week, thank you. That’s so cool!

Our music this week is provided by Sassy Outwater, as it is every week. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This is Caravan Palace. This track is called “La caravane.” It is from their double album Panic and Caravan Palace. You can find it on iTunes or on Amazon, and you can learn more about them at their website, caravanpalace.com.

Now, coming up on the site this week, we have cool things! Are you ready? We have a Romance Wanderlust; we have a Caption That Cover contest; and a guest review for a musical, which I’m really excited about. We have a few other reviews, we have Help a Bitch Out, and we have a post about tracking your reading. If you are a spreadsheet junkie who likes to nerdily deep-dive into data that you create yourself, like me – hi! – I’m sharing a post about how I track my reading, and I hope that you will take a look and let me know what you think.

And it’s time for our bad joke. Are you ready for the bad joke? It’s a very bad joke. Like, it’s really, really bad. Are you ready? Okay, here we go. I’ll try not to laugh your, laugh, laugh so hard that I hurt your eardrums.

Why are all fairy pictures really bad quality?

Give up? Why are all fairy pictures bad quality?

Well, they’re all pixelated.

Not only is it a stupid joke, but – [laughs] – it’s a nerdy computer stupid joke, which is my favorite kind. They’re pixelated! Ah, okay. Yeah, anyway. Ha, thank you to Drondol on Reddit for that joke, because it totally charmed me and made me very happy. Pixelated! Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, it’s embarrassing how much I enjoyed that.

So on behalf of Amy and Catherine and Nicola and Kate and everyone here, including all of the mammals currently on my desk – there’s a lot of them – we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend. We will see you here next week.

Ooh, and don’t forget: there’s an outtake at the end. It’s really quite something. I hope you enjoy it.

[fantastic music]

Sarah: Find out in honey bad-, hot, hot, hobody, ha-ha, honey badger – [laughs]. Wow, that’s so good! Why is that not the title of a book? [Laughs]