604. Dessert Projects, Romantasy, and Whimsy with Katee Robert

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Sarah Wendell: Hello there. Thank you for visiting with me today. I’m Sarah Wendell; this is Smart Podcast, Trashy Books, episode number 604. My guest is Katee Robert. We are going to talk about her many, many, many book releases this year. We’re going to talk about marketing through Kickstarter and direct-to-reader options like Patreon, and about the foundational books in fantasy and romance that got her started.

I will have links to all of the books we mention in the podcast show notes and on smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode number 604.

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A special hello to Sarahjane, who is one of the newest members of our community.

And now, it’s time for a podcast. Sounds good, right? On with me conversation with Katee Robert.

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Sarah: Thank you for doing this!

Katee Robert: Yeah. No, I’m excited. I’ve been a fan of the podcast forever, so – [laughs] – I’m always happy to show up.

Sarah: Oh, thank you! Your episode where we talked about Kickstarters is one of my most popular.

Katee: Awesome! Yeah, I’m, it’s, it pleases me greatly to see more romance authors utilizing that platform, ‘cause I think we were a little underserved on there a couple years ago, and we’re making our corner known. [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, I think what’s really smart about the way that you have approached Kickstarter with Melody is that you make it very clear that this is not just the book. All right, I’m going to call it something really corny: I think of it as physical lore? So it’s not the lore –

Katee: Yeah.

Sarah: – of the book, and it’s not swag; it is physical lore about the books in the series that connects. Like, it’s all, it’s all very smart. Like, I’m all extremely impressed over here.

Katee: As time goes on, we’re increasingly aware that people have so much stuff, and so in order for them to want more things, you have to make it feel valuable in a way that’s not just like, here’s some swag! And so that’s kind of the goal with each of these campaigns is, like, Here’s this, like, immersive experience we’re trying to provide for you. It’s very interesting! I don’t know; it’s, we’re doing something a little different this time, like, with the one that’s going to launch this year, and I’m really excited to see how people respond. [Laughs]

Sarah: Can I get a sneak preview?

Katee: We only did secrets on the first one, and now I can just, like, tell secrets. So we’re looking at just, like, more, like, again, a stationery set that’s like, again, like that subtle branding that it’s like if-you-know-you-know cool, but it’s not, you know, romance in your face for people who don’t necessarily want that?

Sarah: Yep.

Katee: We’re kind of cutting down on some of the options for, like, like, there’s still going to be a book sleeve, but it’s just one design, so people don’t have to be like, I can’t –

Sarah: Choose!

Katee: I feel like we kind of – yeah – and we’ve priced people out in the past, and, like, I don’t want to do that –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Katee: – if at all possible, so that people can get the things they want. We’re still, we’re looking at some really interesting options. We had, we don’t have anything finalized yet, because we’ve done this thing where, like, Can you make this glass with the rose in the bottom? And the, our retail-, or our vendors are like, I don’t – maybe?  Maybe we can do that. So hopefully. [Laughs] And then of course we’re continuing with the Vellum because it’s one of my favorite things in the entire world.

Sarah: What do you love about it?

Katee: I just, it’s, I love character art, and the increasing popularity of character art makes me happy because, like, I’m such a visual person? But the Vellum in particular, just being able to have that, like, immersive feeling of the scene; like, the words are still there, and you’re like, it’s, it’s one step sideways from, like, an illustrated romance novel that –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Katee: – you know, people do do periodically, but I would love to be more common. [Laughs]

Sarah: And it’s hidden inside, right? Like, if you have that little insert –

Katee: Yes.

Sarah: – if you don’t know it’s there, then it’s like a surprise.

Katee: Exactly, exactly. And so we’ll be doing the Not Safe For Work, because we, we found this printer on the first, the first year, just on a, a random thing that we were looking for somebody who could drop ship stuff in an envelope, which a lot of places don’t do; they want to drop ship, like, a postcard. And so this guy, Charlie Steele with Modern Postcard – I will shout him out till the end of days – he was just like, Okay, cool! Like, what else you guys got? And so through this long relationship that we developed where, like, Are you okay with, like, Not Safe For Work? Because we’re bumping up increasingly stringent guidelines about nudity or sensuality or sexuality, and it’s, it’s frustrating from a creative standpoint; it’s also worrisome from, like, just a societal standpoint?

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: It’s just, it’s cra-, it’s art!

Sarah: Yeah!

Katee: It’s, it’s, I could see if it – but regardless. And so he’s like, Well, it’s, it’s art; we don’t censor art. And I’m like, You are my favorite person here. Here it is! And he’s like, Cool, great. Here, we got this thing for you. So he’s, he’s kind of become my go-to for postcards as well, because a lot of, you know, the postcard companies are not down with anything that they feel is too explicit, which, again, is becoming increasingly stringent, and it’s a bummer. So Modern Postcard, authors, hook Charlie Steele, Charlie Steele will hook you up. [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s awesome. And it’s funny, because it’s, it’s almost coming full circle. Like, right now you’re doing art in an envelope, but postcards have been a foundationary part of promo since forever.

Katee: Yes, yes. And I, I do, for my Patreon, they get art prints with – ‘cause I am an ADHD monster, and so I’m like, I need dopamine! Let’s book art! And so whatever art I book in between book releases, it all gets compiled and sent to them with the physical book releases, and then they get access to, like, visual-to-digital art in the meantime? And, but, yeah, that, like, just that little, like, four-by-six art, art prints – can’t call ‘em postcards, ‘cause you call ‘em postcards, it can get a little gnarly with, like, if there’s nudity.

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: Please don’t send them as postcards –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – I will get in trouble. [Laughs] But, yeah, I send, like, art cards out, and I, it’s just such a – it has always brought me joy as a reader, so it’s, it seems like it continues to bring my readers joy, so as long as that happens I will continue doing it.

Sarah: That’s so awesome! Let me back up, because one of the things your publicist asked me to talk to you about was all of your releases, because you have a few?

Katee: Ah, you know…

Sarah: You’ve got like a, like a, like a, a solid half dozen, I think?

Katee: I definitely kind of lean into the Alexander Hamilton write-like-you’re-running-out-of-time thing? I don’t know how to slow down. I continue to say, I’m going to slow down this year; I’m going to dial back to six releases instead of ten, which is – I, to be fair, was on an indie release schedule for a really long, for several years, and I’m not the greatest at targeted promo in advertising, because, as I said, ADHD like, I can, I can dial it in for thirty days, maybe, and then I wander off and all my ads lose money, and it’s bad. So I, instead of beating my head against that wall, I, I naturally write fast, and so I just decided that I’m just going to keep putting out books, and eventually something will happen, hopefully, and it’s worked out, but it’s not a sustainable pace, and so I’m – [laughs] – trying to slow down, which is like other authors’ banana-pants scheduling, so I – the goal is to get to three books a year. That’s the goal. It’s not going to happen for the next couple years.

Sarah: But your goal is to get to only three books a year.

Katee: Yes. Yeah.

Sarah: Instead of like six.

Katee: I, yeah, I think I’m at, like, if we don’t count rereleases, ‘cause several of my publishers are rereleasing – or one of my publishers is rereleasing my mafia series under, like, new titles and, to match the current branding, and then I just sold print rights for Wicked Villains to Sourcebooks, so those’ll be getting rereleasing starting this fall. So if we don’t count those, I’m at about six. [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s, that’s a lot.

Katee: I am amazed that my readers show up for that many, because it’s like, there’s so many other authors to read, and yeah. But I’m, I’m very privileged that I’m able to do this full time, which, you know, it’s – I have a, an indie book coming out, a Sapphic succubus and human monster romance in April, and then in May I have another Sapphic book coming out that is a selkie and a vampire. It’s a morality chain romance. It’s some of the most fun I’ve had writing.

Sarah: So that’s The Succubus’s Prize and then you’re talking about Blood on the Tide, the morality chain?

Katee: Yes, Blood on the Tide, yes.

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: Yes, it’s heavily inspired, the relationship…dynamic in Blood on the Tide is heavily inspired by a Tumblr post I saw many years ago that was talking about the animal bride trope in various folklore, mythology, and whatnot, and how selkies tend to be victims-in-waiting in a lot of ways with, like, a lot of their folk stories, whereas swans are scary and terrifying and territorial and protective, and, like, can you imagine, like, the swan shifters realizing that a selkie had their skin stolen by a human, and then, like, they go and, like, beat up the person and take the skin back, and so, like, this, this idea of this, like, aggressive, protective individual, and then – my selkie’s not really a pushover, but she is somewhat traditional in some ways, and so kind of my twist on the selkie story with a murderous vampire in the mix. [Laughs]

Sarah: As you do.

Katee: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: As you do. That is a lot! And I remember when you were going on tour last year that you were like, Oh my gosh, this is so overwhelming. But it also seems to me that for you, the best form of continuous promo is new books.

Katee: Yes, absolutely. And I, ‘cause, I mean, I’ve been doing this full time since like 2012, so I’m ancient in romance years? Or publishing years, rather.

Sarah: Me too!

Katee: Yeah, yeah, you know!

Sarah: Yeah, you, you ever get that feeling –

Katee: And –

Sarah: – like you’re sitting on the front porch of the Romance Old Folks – Oh, are we talking about whether or not audiobooks count as reading again?

Katee: Right. It just…

Sarah: Oh, let me get my drink! [Laughs]

Katee: Like old author shakes fist at cloud? That is me a lot of times. It’s, it’s – so, but I think that a lot of, especially within, like, the indie community, there can be this focus on marketing, and a lot of times the best marketing is to write the next book? Like, especially if you don’t have necessarily the resources or the knowledge or the interest in doing a lot of those marketing things? I’ve certainly found it to be true that with each book releasing I find new readers –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – and, which never ceases to, like, humble me that I’m like, Oh, you’re still picking up these books! Thank you! [Laughs]

Sarah: And it also seems to me – from the outside, as I’m not actively working as an author; I’m more of a blogger/reviewer/podcaster person who runs her mouth – it seems to me that a lot of the marketing advice for authors right now, at this particular time in February 2024, is I will give you instructions on how to game the existing systems. Or, even, even more accurately, it’s probably I will give you the correct advice on how to game the system that has already been gamed three times before you got here, and here’s the base system, but that doesn’t work anymore.

Katee: Yes.

Sarah: That sounds exhausting!

Katee: Yes, and I find it’s also really hard to tell, like, who’s giving valuable information and who’s being essentially a coach? Like –

Sarah: Yes!

Katee: – can I use coach in a derogatory form as far as, like, if this person is making their money off teaching versus making their money off selling, then is their advice legitimate? Sometimes it is, but –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Katee: – a lot of times it’s not so much. And it’s just, it’s incredibly overwhelming, and it’s, it’s, not every author has the same set of strengths as far as when it comes to just, like, how you run your career, and I think that it’s incredibly disingenuous for a lot of these coach-type individuals giving advice to be like, This is the way to do it, when it might – again, it, we’re gaming the system that’s been gamed. Every time you turn around there’s some new thing happening, and it’s like, Is this bad? Is this good? Are we on the forefront of a cutting-edge technology? Are we all about to lose our shirts?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Katee: In this case, Spotify? Like – [laughs] –

Sarah: Oh dear God.

Katee: – Spotify is the topic of the week. And it’s, it’s hard; it’s hard to know, ‘cause a lot of times we’re dealing with, like, technology or things or stuff that’s never been done before?

Sarah: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Katee: And so being a first adopter can really bite you in the ass sometimes, and –

Sarah: Oh God.

Katee: – it’s, it’s really frustrating for new authors, ‘cause I feel like a lot of times it’s like, Oh, well, you just do this. It’s like, Okay, but, like, when did you start publishing? Was it in 2012? Was it in 2015?

Sarah: Yeah!

Katee: Like, it’s a completely different game now, and you can’t give that advice, ‘cause it doesn’t work.

Sarah: It’s a completely different game than last quarter! [Laughs]

Katee: Exactly! Exactly! [Laughs]

Sarah: And also it’s really hard when the only good advice is Here’s how to game the system? Because all of these massively, massively powerful, monolithic companies don’t have to do shit for you, because they control all of these elements, like Spotify, and, and that’s specifically referring to their contract language and Findaway taking a lot more rights than it should be, and in this is a lot of cases a Terms of Service that people agree to without fully realizing what they’re surrendering here.

Katee: Yeah, and, like, for those who are not aware, Spot- – I’m curious: they, they, they sound like they’re going to try to walk it back, but I don’t know if they’re trying to walk it back or just explain it away like the jury’s out? But Spotify, I believe –

Sarah: Por qué no los dos?

Katee: – bought Findaway Voices –

Sarah: I mean, it could be both, right?

Katee: It could be both! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah! [Laughs]

Katee: But yeah, Spotify bought Findaway Voices, I believe, and so they’re like, Oh, we’re just doing our blanket, we’re updating Terms of Services, and a lot of people are just – like, how often do various Terms of Services get updated we never look at? Like, a lot.

Sarah: How much time do you need in your life to read all the Terms and Services that get put in front of you?

Katee: Would, how often do we even understand, even if we try to read them? [Laughs]

And so Spotify, like, some authors went in and read it and were like, This is incredibly predatory, and, and it is. It’s like, it’s like, to derivative works, like to all sorts of stuff that they should not – it’s a rights grab; it’s a straight-up rights grab. And so enough people were talking about it that Findaway shut down the ability to delete your books on Findaway, so now there’s like a rush on the bank going on that people are like, Take down my books right now. We’ll see if, if it actually changes them. I feel like the people up top – and this is true with traditional publishing as well – like, the people up top who make the money decisions and, like, some of these policy changes have no real knowledge of how that actually works in the real world. [Laughs] It’s just not, it’s, I mean, we saw it with the Penguin Random House trial with Simon & Schuster, or versus the US –

Sarah: Who knows?!

Katee: – or whatever that was…

Sarah: Who knows how books become sell- – it’s just vibes! I mean, that’s why the company’s named Random. Are you kidding me? Why would you –

Katee: We just hand out, we just hand out six-figure deals. It doesn’t mean it’s going to be a success! I’m like –

Sarah: [Sighs]

Katee: – I feel like a lot of authors would really love one of these six-figure deals, but okay. [Laughs]

Sarah: Are you kidding?

Katee: It’s, yeah, it’s, it’s just a wild, wild industry, and sometimes I feel like I’m in a cult of like, if you try to explain it to somebody who’s not familiar with it, they’re like, Are you okay?

Sarah: Yeah!

Katee: Like, do you need help? [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah. And then there’s, there’s Amazon, who has allegedly – [laughs] – this, this kills me. Like, allegedly, Amazon is like, You can’t tell anybody about this, so what do people do? They tell everybody about this: Amazon is now releasing AI audiobook narration as an option for people to have audiobooks produced cheaply. Now, I will say I have been looking into ways to have the ARCs that I get, which are digital galleys before publication, I’m looking at ways to have those ARCs read to me, because, you know, since, I’m going to say since like last fall, I haven’t been able to read. I can listen, but reading, my brain’s like, Nope, nope, nope! Nope, nope, nope. And so –

Katee: That makes sense, yeah.

Sarah: – I’ve got to, I’ve got to roll with my brain! But, as you know, I get a lot of things in advance.

Katee: Right.

Sarah: So I was looking into having various AI options read me ARCs. None of them are, are good. Like, even the most expensive one, I was like, I can tell that this is a computer. Like, I can tell; it’s not the same! It doesn’t work for me!

Katee: I, I mean, it’s the same with, like, visual art or, you know, they’re trying to train it to write books. Like, I don’t think – yeah, no. And it’s, somebody, I think it was on Twitter before Twitter fully just – was like, It’s kind of like trying to spot the Fae? Like –

Sarah: Yes!

Katee: – something’s wrong with this person! Like –

Sarah: How many fingers do they have? And you see the AI, like, on Facebook. For some reason I keep getting served floor plans and pictures of cozy interiors, and I’m like, Those stairs go into a wall. [Laughs]

Katee: Yeah, right. It’s getting better, but one way that it still, like, at this point has not caught up is that if you look at how the clothing’s constructed?

Sarah: Ass.

Katee: A lot of times it’s really like, Why is there a bow – like, that doesn’t make sense.

Sarah: Yep.

Katee: The, art is heart? Like, it’s our human existence –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – and, like, there may come a time when that’s something that can be replicated by computers, but I think we’re –

Sarah: No.

Katee: – a bit longer off than a lot of people are afraid of right now.

Sarah: Yeah. And also it, it, it’s amazing to me because you know Amazon has lots and lots of money to invest in this, and you know that they’ve crunched all the numbers and been like, This is a place where we could make money because it is expensive to have an audio produced by a human; that is an expensive prospect. I don’t remember exactly when it was, but commission on eBooks used to be eight percent, and they dropped it down to four percent? I want to say that might have been like 2014, 2013? Somewhere in there? It’s been a while –

Katee: Yeah.

Sarah: – but I basically was like, Look, everyone takes a turn in the Amazon toilet! They’re going to shit on you, and every company that is doing all of these, like, weird power grabs for rights or AI or, you know, the, the ability to own, own rights that you haven’t offered? That’s, that’s just going to continue. It’s very, you’re right, it is kind of like being in a cult.

Katee: Yeah, and it’s just, it’s, I mean, we’re dealing with late stage capitalism is what it is.

Sarah: Yeah! You know.

Katee: It’s just, we’ve got the, our capitalist overlords, and it’s just trying to game the system to continue on, and, and it’s really frustrating on some level because we don’t have collective bargaining power as indies?

Sarah: No.

Katee: And, whereas, like, my traditional books, like, they can be put up, like, I could probably pub-, or they could probably publish with relatively risqué covers and, like, Amazon wouldn’t blink, but, like, you show a little bit of thigh now on an indie cover and they, you get flagged as like all sorts of stuff. So it’s, it’s, it sucks that we don’t have collective bargaining power, and I don’t know how to fix that, and I don’t think that, I think as a community we’re a bit too scattered, because there’ll always be people who, like, don’t care? Who are just like, I’m gaming the system; it’s fine? It’s incredibly frustrating. [Laughs] ‘Cause Amazon’s so fickle.

Sarah: Yes. It’s all fickle, and then there’s the people who are like, No, you’re taking away my opportunity to make money by telling people how to do this thing that doesn’t actually work.

Katee: Yes. Yes.

Sarah: Which is frustrating.

But one of the things that’s so interesting to me about your career is how many different venues you have found to basically go direct to consumer. You have cultivated a readership that knows to look for you and engage directly with you in terms of Do you want the stuff straight from me? Here, you have a Patreon; you have all of your Kickstarters. Like, you have cornered, like, part of the direct-to-consumer market.

Katee: It’s partially because I was primarily small press and traditional up until about 2018, 2019, and then –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Katee: – the market swung to rom-coms, and I tried to write a rom-com; thank God I didn’t sell it, ‘cause it was, it’s just not, it’s not my wheelhouse. So it’s like, I can’t pay my bills. I have put all my eggs in this one basket, and now this basket dried up and overturned, and I’m in trouble. And so it’s kind of that mentality of like, all the eggs in all the baskets. Like, where can I carve out a space that’s just like multiple streams, or streams of revenue? And Patreon actually came about because of the O’Malley series, the sixth book, people had kept being like, We want to know what this couple’s doing. We want to know, like, can you write a check-in, and I’m like, I can’t do that for free. Like, I cannot do, I cannot – like, we give away so much free content in romance, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing, but I have bills to pay.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Katee: And so how it originally started was like, You get to vote on a character or couple or circumstance or whatever, and I’ll write you a short every month. And I did that for several years and slowly kind of built out, like, occasionally I made missteps and had to, like, dial back. Now it’s shifted in the last year, because I am kind of burned out on a number of things, and so I, I would just, I expected people to flee in droves, but I was like, Look, like, here’s, I’m going to start, I’m going to serialize my dessert projects, which is like the projects I do that are just purely for joy, or, or my indie projects. And people are just down with it! It’s, they’re just happy to be there. They’re happy to get behind-the-scenes looks; they’re really interested in my process, which is so deeply chaotic; and then I also send them new release paperbacks as they come out, so they don’t even have to, like, think about it, like, if they don’t want to. As long as they’re an active patron on that month, they will get the book. I also send audiobooks now that BookFunnel does audiobooks, so it, it made it easy to, to give those to people. And like a small swag box, which I keep saying I’m going to stop doing ‘cause it feels silly, but people are there, and they, they want it, and so they get it. [Laughs]

Sarah: And it also creates an opportunity for you to say, This is how the, the, the revenue works. This is how the, the sausage is actually funded, let alone made, and I remember N. K. Jemisin was one of the pioneers of using Patreon, because she’s like, Look, you want books; I have bills! This is how much I need per month to write books full time. Here is the Patreon. And I think it was funded in less than a few hours.

Katee: Yeah, well, and T. Kingfisher, Ursula Vernon, also has, I’m on her Patreon, and it’s not like she gives particularly a ton of content on any given day or week or whatever, but it’s –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Katee: – it’s just, it’s consistent, and I think a lot of people are just happy to support, like – that’s how I am on Patreon. I’m on so many artists’ Patreon that I’m like, Hello, I would like you to keep making art?

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: Take my five or ten bucks a month or whatever it is.

Sarah: Yes.

Katee: Patreon as a platform is not without its flaws, like any large platform, but it is incredibly easy, and I like easy, and it’s starting to get better at being able to organize stuff, which is nice. [Laughs] Giving the people who are, like, deeply invested in, like, my books and, like, my career and whatnot a way to support have worked out really well.

And Kickstarter solely came about because, again, I was on Kickstarter as a fan, and, like, I’m watching these sci-fi/fantasy authors, like, do really interesting things over there, and I was like, Romance should be doing that! Like, we – and this was kind of in like 2019, so, like, book boxes were at their height.

Sarah: Oh –

Katee: And it was like –

Sarah: – God, yeah!

Katee: – not every author, yeah, can do this, or can, is going to picked up by one of these boxes and get special editions; like, a lot of people want special editions. Let’s try it with this series that’s already proven it can sell, which then, of course, then, like, what happens with new content? Like, how do we leverage that with new content? Like, what does that look like? It’s very different than selling special editions of a popular series, but it, it’s definitely been – Kickstarter’s incredibly innovative, and they’re actually making moves like, they’re looking at, when I launched my initial Kickstarter, the head of, like, outreach for publishing comments like reached out to me and was like, How do we make this more attractive for romance? Because we are underrepresenting romance and, like, we want the romance community. You guys are on the cutting edge of so much stuff; we want you on Kickstarter. And, you know, since then there’s been a lot more projects, and it, and it’s, people are doing different things, which is really cool, and Kickstarter takes a smaller percentage than Amazon. So – [laughs]

Sarah: I remember you saying that before: like, first and foremost, my rate is better on Kickstarter. I’m getting a larger –

Katee: Yeah.

Sarah: – piece of the pie, and you’re getting it, like, immediately. Like, you know what you’re getting.

Katee: Two weeks after, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, you’re getting it.

Katee: Yeah. What I think that I would love to see more of, and I haven’t really had the opportunity to do this myself because I have kind of shifted focus of, like, well, my platform’s, you know, pretty hefty these days. Like, what if we can bring in more people, like, and, you know, do a boost? But I think that sometimes I see authors being like, Okay, we’re just going to release, you know, or do special editions or whatever of these five books, and then I’m going to retail the sixth book, and I’m like, Put the sixth book on Kickstarter! Give it early! People will, people will show up!

Sarah: Oh!

Katee: Especially your hardcore fans! And then you can still put it retail after the fact. Like –

Sarah: Yeah!

Katee: – it just is a preorder campaign.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s a preorder campaign, and it’s not competitive in a way that the current Terms of Service are disallowing.

Katee: I had the advantage of, like, working with Jenny Nordbak and Melody Carlisle and, like, we had issues with the first one to where, like, how do – delivery is a problem; like, this other stuff’s a problem; and Kickstarter’s like, Cool, do you want an intro to the CEO of BookFunnel? And I’m like, Yeah –

Sarah: Yeah!

Katee: – actually, I do. And, and he was like, Yeah, absolutely, this is a problem. Here’s this thing that I, a friend of mine did that, like, worked out really well, and we can make this work for you. And, and then we went back to Kickstarter and were like, How do we make this work? And it was just like, the innovation is really nice to see, because a lot of times, you know, Amazon or, like, these other companies are like, This is how it is; deal with it?

Sarah: And they don’t answer the phone.

Katee: And so to be like – no! Or they’re like –

Sarah: They’re not connecting you.

Katee: – the computer will answer you? Good luck. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: And then it’s going to accuse you of stealing your cover art.

Sarah: Now, you mentioned one of the ways in which to innovate on Kickstarter with new material is to put up the prior books and then do a preorder, a special preorder, or a special edition of the new book that’s just for that. What are some other ways that you’ve explored with new material on Kickstarter? And if you don’t want to talk about it, I have other questions.

Katee: Oh no.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Katee: I’m super happy to. I, I, I would love for people to benefit from my mishaps or my knowledge, like, you know, ‘cause we put in a lot of work over, we’re now on our fourth campaign, like – or I’m on my fourth campaign and the third campaign for Bonkers – and it’s really interesting to see the differences with, like, new content because people don’t necessarily have the emotional attachment to art the way they do with, like, stories they’ve already read.

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: But the shared world really seems to be hitting. Like, it, it’s just having multiple authors in the same setting or, I, I think it would be really interesting. I think people have done it by trope of, like, these are all like friends-to-lovers romances, and, like, if you have a good compilation of authors who have similar-enough writing styles or story structure or heat levels or what-have-you, I, I think the crossover works well. I don’t – I think that the shared world or having a group is a really great way to alleviate some of the pressure of, like, if it’s only me, nobody shows up for me. But Kickstarter’s so adaptable that you can do new content, you can release stuff, you could do audiobooks. I’ve seen authors, like, fundraise for audiobooks. And of course there’s swag, or I think V. E. Schwab’s publisher just did one that was, like, just the book with, like, a slightly fancier edition with, like, some art and stuff? There’s really, like, the sky’s the limit, and the beauty is that you set your own goals, so you can run a campaign for like two thousand dollars, and that’s still successful. Like, that’s not, it doesn’t have to be forty-four million dollars, Brandon Sanderson. It, it can be –

Sarah: The GDP of a bunch of countries.

Katee: [Laughs] Oh God.

Sarah: Doesn’t he have a house that’s just for fulfillment purposes? Like, there’s a separate property that is a house that he bought that is just for fulfilling all of the boxes and stuff?

Katee: He did. I think he must have a warehouse at this point. Like, the sheer number, like, it’s staggering, and honestly, a little overwhelming, because we – and that’s something that, like, people really need to take into account is don’t overcomplicate things, because the fulfillment can be a nightmare if you’re not careful, and it’s, it, like, it’s better to under-promise and over-deliver than the other way around?

Sarah: Oh yeah. That’s why my first swag that I did for sale on the site was stickers, because I can put all of the mailing equipment in one of those back-of-the-door, like, shoe organizers, and it’s like sticker, sticker, sticker, stamp, stamp, card, bag, envelope, done! Like, it doesn’t take up a lot of room –

Katee: Yeah.

Sarah: – whereas if I was selling T-shirts I’d have to find a place to put all those T-shirts, ‘cause obviously I want to do a wide range of sizes, and then I got to figure out where am I going to put them and how am I going to – yeah. It’s a big ol’ thing!

Katee: That’s – we, I want to do T-shirts, and I have not branched out into it just because of that. To be inclusive and to, like, you’d almost have to have the equipment yourself to, like, do the screen pressing, and then it’s like, that’s a whole-ass business. I am not prepared to do that, although my husband’s, like, down with it.

Sarah: Yeah, there’s a little book thing you can do.

Katee: Yeah. Yeah, just this, it’s a, a small little book thing. [Laughs]

Sarah: But also I think, for example, I have been guilty of underestimating what would be appealing. Like, for example, I remember thinking, Why would anyone pay for a print edition of a web comic that they can read for free on their phone? Like, I don’t get it. But then I realized I am not the audience for the print edition. I am not, that is, I am not the audience. It doesn’t mean that, just ‘cause I’m not in it, that doesn’t mean that audience doesn’t exist, and ho damn, howdy, does that audience exist.

Katee: Oh yeah. And sometimes, like, I’ve backed I think three now for Let’s Play? The web comic Let’s Play?

Sarah: Yes!

Katee: I read it all on, like, for free, and not even the advanced, like, unlocked chapters, just straight up for free, but I wanted to have it on my shelves –

Sarah: Yeah!

Katee: – on my trophy shelf, and it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s very interesting. I think that, like, Jenny and I have a lot of conversations because she’s not a stuff person; she’s like swag’s kind of like, whatever? And so if I can get her to be like, Oh, that’s interesting, I, I’ve, I might want that –

Sarah: Then you’re onto something.

Katee: – then I know that I’m onto something? Yeah, so it’s, but it’s, we do a lot of, like, market research of, like, this isn’t something that I care about, but, like, obviously people do care about it, and so maybe that’s something we need to look into? As I like to tell authors, because it makes everyone uncomfortable to do money stuff and to charge things and to put prices on things, and everybody wants to undervalue themselves and their work, that your readers and your consumers are grownups with grownup money, and they can make their grownup decisions, and if – you’re not forcing anyone to pay any sort of money. It’s great to have some affordable options; I would also really recommend having a couple pie-in-the-sky tiers that, you know, are more expen- – expensive enough to make you uncomfortable, because somebody might pay it and be happy. Like, you just don’t know, you don’t know other people’s spending habits at times, and it’s, it’s something that I, is a challenge for me. [Laughs] ‘Cause I’m usually like, No! Like, let’s do bare minimum profit, and that’s something that working with other authors or – ‘cause we’re the project managers, and then we have four authors that they just write the books and, like, we provide the promo stuff for them, and they just have to promo and, like, write the book, and that’s it.

Sarah: Yeah!

Katee: We do everything else. So knowing that they, they are getting profit from how we are setting things up helps me to be a little more reasonable with the, with the pricing on things, to be like –

Sarah: Yeah!

Katee: – No, like, we, I do have to, like, provide profit for these people who have put their trust in me. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, for sure!

Now, I did want to ask you, changing tacks just a little bit –

Katee: Yeah.

Sarah: – a lot of your books come up under the very popular term rrromantasy, which I will now only say without rolling the R, ‘cause it makes it fun. And I don’t know if you saw, I, I got to be in the Washington Post talking about romantasy this past week, and it was very fun to be like, This has existed for a very long time under lots and lots of different names, and now it has a new title, and portmanteaus are great, and we’re really lucky that it’s not fantamance. Could have been fantamance, but no, it’s not.

Katee: [Laughs] It could have been, yeah.

Sarah: You’ve been writing fantasy romance, fantasy, rrromantasy for a long time, and obviously this genre goes back to like the ‘80s and the ‘70s and the ‘60s and the big heyday of, of fantasy; there was, there was always romance girl cooties; I’m sorry. There was always romance cooties.

Katee: Always!

Sarah: Always romance cooties! We’re everywhere!

What are your thoughts on the new title for the familiar genre? I would really love to know your perspective, ‘cause you are an established author in this field, and people have lots of feelings about the rrromantasy title.

Katee: I, I mean, it’s one of those things that, like, if it helps people find books I don’t have a problem with it? Like, I’m not precious about that stuff because, like, you know, like you said, we’re around long enough, you see, you know, urban fantasy is now contemporary fantasy. Like, they all have, it’s, everything that’s old is new again.

Sarah: Who wears the leather pants? This is the question!

[Laughter]

Katee: Exactly. The one thing that I’m finding interesting about that particular label is that it seems like, it’s, at, seems like when it was first coined it was ev-, on everything. It was like, this is romantasy; this is romantasy; this is romantasy. And now, at least on the publishers’ side of things, they’re starting to pull back a little bit because readers are looking for a very specific reading experience when they’re promised romantasy, and it isn’t necessarily fantasy romance or romantic fantasy. It’s something like, I’m really curious to see how it develops, because I think that at this point reader expectation is like, it’s going to have spice, it’s going to be possibly one, maybe only two points of view, but it’s going to follow the same set of characters across multiple books, which is – yeah.

Sarah: That’s hard!

Katee: Yes. So it’s going to be interesting to see if that narrow definition sticks or if it broadens as time goes on. I’m deeply curious because, you know, I cut, that’s what I cut my teeth on when I found fantasy in, like, thirteen, fourteen? Was essentially what is romantic fantasy now? And so, I don’t know; it’s going to be really interesting. I, I find this stuff very fascinating ‘cause I try to guess what’s going to happen, and most of the time I’m wrong, but –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Katee: – I like seeing the rhythms of trends.

Sarah: And it’s, and it’s a weird trend, right? Because if you’ve been here long enough you’re like, Oh! You mean like this book and this other book and this other book? I actually had a really interesting conversation with Amanda, my assistant, because I mentioned Kresley Cole and Nalini Singh and Jennifer Armentrout and Jennifer Estep as writing series that would qualify as romantasy –

Katee: Yep.

Sarah: – especially if you’re talking about the fact that it’s going to follow a set of protagonists. Like the Archangel series has drifted out, but those are the same people. And Amanda disagreed that Nalini Singh is romantasy. She said, That’s paranormal. And there really does seem to be a divide between some readers saying No, this is paranormal, and this is romantasy, and those are not the same thing, and it’s important to make that distinction. I’m fascinated by what things will be called next.

Katee: Yeah, ‘cause I’ve actually gotten pushback for my pirate series, which is, Blood on the Tide is the second book, of being like, That’s not romantasy, and I was like, It’s not?

Sarah: Why would it not be?

Katee: Like, I thought it was!

Sarah: Why would it not be?

Katee: Just because it’s, it’s, because it’s a different couple in each one or something? I don’t – it’s, I am not entire- – and it’s one of those things that, like, it’s not, and we can’t exactly tell you why, and I’m like, Okay. Like, this is interesting; this is interesting!

Sarah: This is like the opposite of porn! I know it when I’m not seeing it!

Katee: Yeah!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Katee: Yeah. And, I mean, I, I definitely understand, as far as Nalini Singh goes, because her books really feel like – and it might just be ‘cause they’re so city-based? Like, I think that, but you could say that of a lot of the popular romantasy. I don’t know; it’s very interesting. I’m, there, I don’t have a definitive answer.

Sarah: It’s like watching it be defined in real time.

Katee: Yes.

Sarah: And when you mention, like, what readers are looking for when they’re looking for romantasy – sorry, rrromantasy – is a very specific thing? It’s also, I think it tends to edge a little towards dark versus cozy? More angst –

Katee: Yeah.

Sarah: – than warm and fuzzy, and that’s why you have the cozy fantasy romances being marketed very separately, cozy romance versus romantasy, ‘cause romantasy seems to have an element of angst and drama and big, big feels! Large feel, big feels.

Katee: Well, and, like, the morally gray hero –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – and the heroine feels a specific way. I, I do think – excuse me – I do think it’s going to blow open –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – like in the next couple years as far as definitions go? But right now people are like, they almost want – I think it’s because, like, Sarah J. Maas and Jennifer Armentrout’s Blood and Ash series and some of the other stuff that’s kind of gotten popular in the wake of that all feel very similar in certain components?

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: And so that’s like, people are like, This is what it is. Will it stay that way? I don’t know!

Sarah: I don’t know either. It’s fun to see something – it’s like watching a new island be formed. Like, Ooh, what books –

Katee: Yeah.

Sarah: – are we going to put on this island? Because I don’t get a lot of pitches now for paranormal romance or even urban fantasy romance. Those aren’t terms that I get pitched to me now.

Katee: No, it’s, I see contemporary fantasy –

Sarah: Yep. Cozy fantasy –

Katee: – which I’m like –

Sarah: – witch fantasy.

Katee: Yes.

Sarah: Yep.

Katee: Yeah. So it’s, it’s, it’s deeply interesting, ‘cause I’m like, Back in my day we called that urban fantasy, and they’re like, No, urban fantasy means something specific now –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – and it’s not what we called it. And it’s, I don’t think it’s a bad thing for, you know, stuff to change, but it’s, it’s very interesting on an academic level.

Sarah: And it’s interesting on a, on a, on a lexical level. Like, the actual vernacular, how we’re describing our genre is something that –

Katee: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – readers increasingly have control over and input in, and watching terms be created or identified that aren’t coming from corporations, that aren’t coming from publicists and houses, it’s, it’s fan-based language. That makes me think of how many authors and publishers now use fanfic tags as standard marketing.

Katee: Yeah. I mean, I do. I, I started –

Sarah: I love it! Make it clear!

Katee: I, it’s – yeah, and it’s also just like, it’s fun, and it gets people talking, and it’s a great –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – promo tool, but also I feel very strongly about not content-warning things between consensual adults, with the exception of a few things like consensual non-consent because that is a triggering thing, but, like, I’m not going to content-warn, like, female/female sex scene or, like, stuff because I feel like that kind of puts an Ick on it that –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – I don’t want to convey? So I find the tags really helpful to, like, signal-flare certain things –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – that I don’t want to consider content warnings but that I do want people aware of, whether it’s so, as a marketing tactic of them being like, Yes, I want that, a shopping list, or just people being like, Oh, I’m not certain about, like, whatever. And so that’s, it’s a, I think, I mean, if people look at it – not everybody looks at it – [laughs] – but I, it’s a very useful tool, and I think that it’s popular and useful in fanfic for a reason.

Sarah: Oh, for sure! And not only is it popular and useful, but it helps with a problem that I’ve been looking at in the genre for ages. So way, way, way, way back when Smart Bitches was founded, like the middle of the 2000s, we had a campaign with Dear Author called Save the Contemporary ‘cause it was dying and there weren’t enough!

[Laughter]

Sarah: So it’s fine now; it’s, it’s doing really well! But one of the problems was when we were talking about contemporary romance, we were talking about a very specific kind of contemporary romance which probably now would be called rom-com? But –

Katee: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – back then, and still now, I could say contemporary romance and be talking about like Debbie Macomber or Robin, Robin Carr, and you could be talking about like the darkest, most angsty-est, marginally dub-con mafia – let’s –

Katee: Yeah.

Sarah: – let’s make it a mafia biker gang romance that you’re talking about, right? And I’m talking about like bakeries next door to the church, and those are both contemporary romances. They are not the same thing.

Katee: The interesting thing, like, as far as, like, dark romance as a subgenre, I think that some dark romance should really be labeled as, like, erotic horror?

Sarah: Oh, that’s a good point. I can totally see your reasoning for saying that.

Katee: Because I think some of the criticisms leveled at, like, a cert- – and some, some authors do do that. Like, they, they get ignored, and it’s still called dark romance by readers, but they are, like, labeling, and I think that some of the criticisms about romanticizing abuse – which I could, that’s one topic I could talk about for a very long time – would not necessarily apply because those expectations come with the label of romance, that they will be inherently redeemable, whereas if you’re in, like, erotic horror or something that’s like kissing cousins but not quite the same, would you still get those criticisms? Absolutely, but, like, you don’t see those against horror writers the way you do against romance writers.

Sarah: Right.

Katee: And, you know, I think that that’s – but, like, my, well, I have an increasing love of horror over the last couple years, and so it’s got me really thinking about, like, labels and, like, how horror and romance can really interact with each other –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Katee: – in, like, interesting ways, and I think dark romance is a really great example of that, but the romance label sometimes catches people up because they feel like romance should be prescriptive, which I don’t agree with, but –

Sarah: Oh no!

Katee: – you know, people will feel their way.

Sarah: It, it’s interesting to, to hear you say that you’ve been reading a lot more horror, ‘cause you’re not the only person I’ve interviewed who’s like, I’m reading a lot of horror? Like, and I’m like, Well, that, that makes sense: horror and romance have a lot of things in common. I did a whole interview with Chuck Tingle where he was like, No, they are, they are cousins.

Katee: They are!

Sarah: They are very close.

Katee: They are, and I think, like, dark romance, some – oh God, who said it? I cannot remember. It was someone on Twitter. I properly, like, nodded to them in the past, so this bit, it’s, like, something that, like, Dark romance is the perfect blend of romance and horror because you get the cathartic, intense emotions of horror with the soft landing of, of the HEA from romance?

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: And that – but they’re, they’re the same! They’re both like, we, both incredibly trope-y; both –

Sarah: Yes!

Katee: – like, are created to bring forth really intense emotions.

Sarah: Yes.

Katee: It’s just – and both often having really commentary below the surface level of, like, the thing happening. It’s like, okay, but this is like a metaphor for this other thing that’s happening. And, and both are kind of shit on by most literary people. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. Looking at my notes from my interview with Chuck, which I just pulled up, and that was in August of 2023 for Camp Damascus, he sees romance, horror, and comedy as matching genres, because they create a physical response, as opposed to an intellectual response. They create a, a response in the body and em-, emotional. Like, horror makes you scared. Romance –

Katee: Yeah.

Sarah: – can make you horny or, or, or tender or emotional, and comedy makes you laugh! Like, those are all physical responses to what you’re reading, which is very different from a, Oh, I’m having a think about this. That’s a different response, and I think he’s right about that.

Katee: I agree, yeah, absolutely. And it’s, and all three of those are really hard to do.

Sarah: Yes!

Katee: Like, there’s –

Sarah: It’s so hard!

Katee: – it’s, they seem easy, like, Oh, I’ll just tell a scary story; I’ll just write a smutty book. But, like, it’s hard to elicit those emotions in the people that are, excuse me, reading or listening or viewing your story if you’re not really good at your craft. [Laughs]

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s pretty vi-, pretty visible.

Now, I always ask this question: what are some books that you’re reading right now that you would like to tell people about? And if you don’t have any books to talk about now, ‘cause I understand sometimes writers go through periods where they’re not reading, if there were books that were foundational to you as a writer that, like, you could go back to any time, I would also accept that list. I mean, just name books; it’s fine. [Laughs]

Katee: I, I’m on, like, this intense winner-after-winner reading-athon right now, which is really scary because it means eventually it’ll end. But –

Sarah: Victory!

Katee: – I – yes.

Sarah: I’m so happy for you!

Katee: On, on book tour, I finally picked up Legendborn. A lot of times when books get really hyped, I get this, like, resistance to picking up, ‘cause I’m certain it won’t live up – oh yes, it did. It did and then some, and then I read the second book, which was even better. Even better; phenomenal; now I have to wait for the third and I’m bummed. Like, probably one of the most unique angles I’ve seen on, like, the King Arthur, like, mythos?

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: And, and then I, I am a huge Stephen Graham Jones fan? Like –

Sarah: Ooh!

Katee: I’d read The Only Good Indians a couple years ago, and, like, it haunted me, and I could not figure out why it haunted me, and, like, it made me scared to pick up more of his books, ‘cause I just could not, like, define what it was that, like, made that story sit with me so much?

Sarah: Yep.

Katee: And so then I, I – but I read the first two in the Jade Daniels trilogy, and, like, I loved slashers even before, like, my horror renaissance that I’m in right now; like, I’ve always loved slashers, Scream in particular; that franchise is a favorite of mine? Or was… And so, like, I read the first two books, and I was like, Holy shitballs. Like, this is, it’s a love song to slashers. The character work that he’s doing is phenomenal, and, like, the third one I think comes out in April, and so I got rejected on NetGalley for it, and so I, mess-, or, like, emailed my publicist, and I was like, Could you, do you know anybody over there? Like, could you get me this book? I, I’m going to talk about it; I’m going to talk about it so much, because I cannot stop talking about it. And the first two books – sorry, we are in this fandom right now – the first two books are third point of view –

Sarah: Right.

Katee: The third one’s in first.

Sarah: Ohhh!

Katee: And –

Sarah: That’s a, that, that’s a, that’s a switch!

Katee: It, it’s so intentional and such – I had to keep stopping it because I was, kept crying, because, like, the character work that he does with Jade, who’s this, was, starts the series as a child who has been, like, you know, harmed in such grievous ways, and, like, whose community has kind of failed her, into her stepping into this adult role of one of the people that she really valued as a teenager, as a seventeen-year-old, to becoming, like, the mother that she didn’t have, because her mother failed her, but, like, that strength, what that looks like in, that, like, maybe final girl isn’t a…like a single thing. Maybe there’s a final girl in a lot of us, and, like, it was so beautiful and, like, just ruined me. It ruined me in the best way possible. It ended really hopeful, so if anybody’s worried about that, it ends really hopeful; no spoilers.

And then I couldn’t read, because how, how do, how do I go from there? And my friend Nisha Sharma was like, Katee, you need to read this book You Made a Fool of Death with Your Beauty? And I was like, All right, I’m going to pick it up. I don’t know; I can’t promise that I’m going to read, like, get through it, because I’m in a hella book hangover, and I’m almost done with it, and it is, again, the most beautiful book. Like, it’s messy and human and sexy – not spicy, but sexy.

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: And, like, just this gorgeous tale of her finding herself in a way that, like, is selfish, but also, like, she deserves to be selfish?

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Katee: So – [laughs]

Sarah: Little bit?

Katee: So yeah, I’m just floored, and I don’t know what I’m going to do when I finish this book! [Laughs] Probably, probably go out to show or something; I don’t know.

But as far as, like, foundational texts that, like, left their imprints on my soul, Kushiel’s Legacy series by Jacqueline Carey, which is, I would argue, romantasy. Like, it’s –

Sarah: I completely agree! In the original draft of my WaPo article, I talked about how Kushiel’s Dart got Cassiel’s Servant last year, that it has a new, updated, alternate point of view story. Like, that’s very much romantasy! Especially the erotica part!

Katee: And it’s just – oh my gosh. And it’s like, and it’s queer in a way that’s just so matter-of-fact that, like, you didn’t really find very often at the time when that was originally published. But I read it, like, too early to fully understand every element of what I was reading, and was just like, This is the greatest thing I’ve ever, ever gotten my hands on.

Anne Bishop’s Black Jewels trilogy –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Katee: – and its various short stories that go with it is – I’m, like, on this perpetual quest to find books that have that balance of, like, really dark content but also whimsy? Like, C. L. Wilson’s Tairen Soul series is very similar tonally, but you don’t see that combination all that often.

Sarah: No! That was very unique.

Katee: Yeah, and just, like – I reread that series probably once a year, like around Christmas time? And –

Sarah: And again, it got a new cover to go with the romant-, rrromantasy label! It went from a very art style clinch cover to –

Katee: Yeah.

Sarah: – I think I described it in the article as either something in bas relief or something on fire or encased in ice, or in this case all three!

Katee: Yes. Sometimes there’s a dagger? [Laughs]

Sarah: It was just a knife; just stabbing it, yeah.

Katee: Yeah!

And then the, like, third part of the trifecta is Ilona Andrews’s Kate Daniels series?

Sarah: Oh goodness, yes!

Katee: Because, once again, that’s, I reread these series all the time, like at least probably once a year, but, like, in a time when urban fantasy, at the time what that was called, they really did something unique with that series that, like, all, most – at least the series I was reading, which is not exhaustive of the list, but the ones I was reading that were really popular at the time, it’s like each book got darker and darker, and she’s more isolated, and it’s, it’s bad! She’s, you know, ten degrees below hell at this point. And the Kate Daniels series, the stakes were raised because she had more people around her she cared about.

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: And more people that she could – so she built a community, and that’s what raised the stakes, which was very unique at that time –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – and it’s, like, I, they’re one of the authors, or set of authors, they’re, they’re the authors, like, that it’s like, I don’t care what you write, I will –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – purchase it. Like, I’m not going to write you to ask when the next Hugh book’s coming out, I will be patient, but just know that I’m waiting. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. I love the, I love books that, like, play with the concept of home? That creating a home –

Katee: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – that is a sanctuary is a very important skill, and it’s underappreciated. Also most commonly, like, expected of women. I love the Innkeeper series, because it’s like, not only do we have to make a place that is a home, that’s like an inn, like, people are going to sleep here, but it has to be neutral, and everyone has to be safe, and that’s hard!

Katee: I love a neutral territory. And it’s, the Innkeeper series, they do a really good job of, like, setting as character?

Sarah: Yeah!

Katee: Which is something that I’m relatively recently getting into. Like, obviously Gothic novels do that really well. And Ryan La Sala’s honey, The Honeys did setting as character, like, just phenomenally. It’s like summer camp kind of situ-, like rich people summer camp, but it’s like, I’m like, I can feel the sticky air on my skin –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Katee: – like, hear the buzz of the bee – like, it –

Sarah: Yeah.

Katee: – oh, just excellent.

Sarah: All right, where can people find you if you wish to be found? If you wish to be not found, you do not have to be found.

Katee: [Laughs] I am in an increasingly tumultuous relationship with social media, so I –

Sarah: You don’t say! [Laughs]

Katee: Yeah. I’m currently, right now, at this moment, on Instagram, Threads, and TikTok, but should I ever disappear from there, I have a newsletter that goes out approximately weekly, and it’s mostly just like irreverent, silly stuff; what I’m reading; various announcements that I’m required to make. [Laughs] What’s going on in my life. But mostly what I’m reading, ‘cause I like to, like, that brings me joy to be like, you let me shove this book in your hands, please.

Sarah: Yeah. Let me tell you about this book. I have a whole website that that’s basically why it exists –

Katee: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: – because I wanted to do that.

Katee: Yes, exactly.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you, as always, to Katee Robert for connecting with me, as busy as she is.

As I mentioned, I will have links to all of the books that we talked about, and I will have links to her website, and I will have links to the other Patreons she mentioned as well.

I end each episode with a terrible joke, and this week would be no exception; I would never leave you hanging. This joke is from Laura B, and I love it so much.

Why was Cinderella so bad at soccer?

Give up? Why was Cinderella so bad at soccer?

She kept running away from the ball!

[Laughs] I can hear you groaning. Like, sometimes I grab a joke from the Discord or I find one online, and I’m like, Oooh! It’s so bad! Thank you, Laura B!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend. We will see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

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